Fixing the Iuz Problem

The Greyhawk Wars changed the Empire of Iuz in a lot of ways. I discuss some ways to bring back a better sense of Balance to the Flanaess.
0:00 What's today's video about?
0:32 What happened
1:47 Balance in Greyhawk
3:23 Solution #1: Removing Iuz
6:26 Solution #2: Knocking back Iuz
10:03 Wrap up
10:56 Thanks
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[@howardadamkramer]

I have never incorporated the Greyhawk Wars into my campaigns. But if I did, the easiest way to deal with Iuz is by using rebellions. The Horned Society, the Bandit Kingdoms, the Rovers and Tenh would all be rife with rebels. You could also use Tang (from Greyhawk Adventures) to raise a barbarian horde and invade Iuz from the northwest.

[@robgruber4553]

I agree with much of what you talked about, the thing that really answers a lot for me is the fact that the Greyhawk Wars exhausted Iuz as much as it did Furyondy and its allies. Heroes and leaders of every nation are lost, missing or were slain in the expansive wars. Every nation is buckling under the financial strain of rebuilding and recovering from the Wars. Mercenaries are in high demand, fledgling heroes and even green, rookies are a valuable resource right now. Builders and Engineers were lost, resources lost and exhausted in the process too. The great leaders, including Iuz are stretched thin, they gambled and for the most part all ended in stalemate. It means everyone is rebuilding and posturing for their future. A perfect time for campaigns to start, for heroes to step up, earn experience and fill the roles of leaders across the lands. Monsters are populating the dark, untraveled corners of every nation, defences are becoming ruins, there is much to explore and investigate. I love this time, it is gritty, medieval and desperate. It makes for fun campaign development of all kinds, political, military, adventuring and more! Long Live Greyhawk!

[@BW022]

Other options I typically used... #3. Iuz is dormant -- either biding time, dealing with high level foes/magic, issues, gods, etc., waiting for something before expanding, the real 'war' is being fought by high level folks, or his army is too fractured to continue fighting. #4. Don't set campaigns that area. The east, west, and south are far enough away that average folks (including low-to-mid level PCs) simply don't need to deal with it. #5. Keep the campaign in set in the box set years. #6. Just ignore it. Have a good campaign plot which doesn't involve it. #7. Embrace it. Have them fighting in the Greyhawk Wars, make Iuz prominent, encounter armies, defeat his minions, etc.

[@dr.davidhoward3179]

We should have a Greyhawk Convention of 1st Edition AD&D . We have a lot of great DMs & Players right here!

[@OniTreefolk]

I like Greyhawk mostly BECAUSE all of the tension between nations and powers has everything at a standstill. It feels good for both the players and the GM to see their actions have an impact on the state of the world and provides them more choice on what they deem is an important next task. I love the format of this video a lot too. As a newer player to Greyhawk, it's nice to hear other people having the same issues I am while reading through the material AND this helps me get an idea on what I can possibly do when the time comes for my players to confront/deal with Iuz. Thank you =)

[@hamishshaw4907]

I like your idea of taking Iuz out of the equation and splintering his realm.

[@markgagnon7795]

Bingo! Did that in my campaign.

[@DIEGhostfish]

I mean doesn't he eventually "Canonically" get-got by Vecna in Die Vecna Die!?

[@jamesnell1999]

With occupied cities like Grabford, Crockport, and Critwall, there is a hot border in a cold war. I see an open field for low to mid level stealthy missions, both inside Furyondy and on the other side of the truce line. Ex-rulers of The Horned Society the Hierarchs were true believers of their "pain & suffering is good for you" religion. So famine and not paying the troops are thing that "just happen". Iuz & the Bonehearts are different. The Boneheart priests are in it for themselves. They like their pleasures and all this evil is just what they need to do to afford the dastardly delights of the capitol city, Dorakaa. When the high level Bonehearts are on an evil bender in Dorakaa, it is easy to imagine that they don't care if the troops don't get paid or fed. At least, as long as they haven't unified and laid siege to Dorakaa. But that won't happen as long as there are farms to raid on either side of the truce line. At times of war, Iuz would have his inner circle cracking the whip on their lieutenants to make the war machine go. During an uneasy truce, Iuz would need to let the Boneheart have their fun. The great their excess, the less time they have for serious mischief. Many would go AWOL and not take governance too seriously. This lays open the opportunity for pro-Furyondy adventurers to evacuate what farmers and other decent folk from behind enemy lines and damage what ever economy is left. That causes more legions of hobgoblins and orcs to cross the truce line to raid farms. If they are slaughtered by the Furyondian military, Iuz's diplomat will complain in Greyhawk, but Iuz knows they breed like rats and are thus easily replaced. Also, Carl Sargent's Marklands sourcebook says the garrison of the Furyondian town of Morsten increased to 200. Fortifications were constructed and the river harbor now extended to house military ships. Until Willip and build a river fleet for the Veng the Veng border forts must be supplied by overland caravan. Those supply caravans are going to be prime targets for the neglected unfed legions of Iuz camped on the east side of the Veng. Caravan guard... what a perfect job for low level adventures. Eventually such a group would inevitably end up in the port city of Willip, the gateway to the City of Greyhawk, Dyvers, and beyond.

[@fleetcenturion]

This is why writers and game designers should _never_ mess with the timeline! Unlike other D&D realms, however, this presents a golden opportunity for high level play, should the campaign continue past level 12 or so. Simply don't advance the timeline, until the characters are ready to take on this new _"Evil Empire of Eeeeeeevil,"_ which should have been strictly a series of adventures, rather than completely changing the scope of the campaign world. But I guess those legendarily shrewd businessmen at TSR thought they could make more money with new box sets. Basically, the whole Iuz Empire can work, if you think of it as a high level sandbox campaign. The DM can just manipulate world events slowly, which the characters simply wouldn't be able to affect at lower levels. Then, when the biggest of the BBEGs finally establishes himself, the heroes will be ready to take him on!

[@briansmith6445]

Good ideas. Ultimately, I feel this is a problem that should be 'solved' by a group of high-level PC's, their henchmen, and allies in a grand-scope campaign. It's a 'Circle of Eight' level problem, but the one thing I never liked about the Co8 is that they were someone else's campaign and players. This would be a great 'plot hook' to give very high level characters a task worthy of them- shaping world events, as it were.

[@natureandthenation]

Agreed

[@Draxynnic]

The Living Greyhawk campaign (roughly 2000-2008), while decanonised, did a lot of what was discussed here. Short form is that Iuz started focusing more on increasing his level of divinity and more cosmic plots rather than holding territory on Oerth, allowing his domain to be pushed back a little... until the climax of the campaign has the PCs intervene in the ritual where he seeks to upgrade his divinity. If he succeeds, the rules of the cosmology remove him from being able to remain present on Oerth directly, essentially switching from being the big fish on Oerth to being a little fish in the pantheon of gods in the wider multiverse (one of the good outcomes, IIRC, involves him getting just enough power that the other gods can get involved, but also not enough that he can fight back effectively when one of the good gods jumps him). There's also the outcome where the PCs might interfere with the ritual in such a way as to blow him up completely, but that's presented as a "this could also blow open Tharizdun's prison" level of risk. Both outcomes are likely to involve further weakening of the empire - one of the Bonehearts is the apparent successor, but that's still a lower level of threat.

[@godking4621]

Iuz was never a problem. He is an opportunity. If balance is maintained or good is ascendant then what need is there for heroes? Good has been injured and driven back, the barbarian/orc/demons are at the door. Time to sharpen the swords and hurl yourself at the tides of evil. This is the time to adventure, build up levels and establish keeps on the borderlands. To drive back evil and reignite the lights of civilization and liberty. Or go silently into the darkness... Choose your adventure and destiny.

[@dr.davidhoward3179]

Campaign Balance is such a True Neutral term.

[@pentegarn1]

Yeah I never liked Iuz in the Fellreev Forest. I don't mind him having some troops there or a secret strong hold in there....but not totally take it over. Same with the Bandit Kingdoms. I tell my players thats the only place they can carve out their own kingdom and that anywhere else they will be smashed by the powers that be. So that definitely never worked for me...and causes me to ignore most of that later stuff with the Greyhawk Wars.

[@blnematode1267]

When I read WGR5 I kept asking myself, how can this be a fertile ground for adventure when it’s teeming with the minions of iuz? The answer is, these are chaotics. Their power extends only as far as they can swing a spiked club. In the lands they conquered they left no functional structures of authority, that’s not what they do. As you can probably tell, I’m not so sure Iuz is a problem. I agree with you a lot Joe but here’s where I veer off the reservation, GH is a setting for adventures. Adventurers need a reason to exist. It isn’t setting for the sake of setting and talk of balance edges into that territory. balance is perched atop the notion of Neutrality which is where the alignment discussion crawls off to die of illogic. I like that Carl Sargent’s GH is filled with muscular evil after the wars. It is no inter nation simulator. It calls for heroes in a dangerous land. That’s what I need from a setting

[@perperov]

Agreed! Thanks for some really good plot ideas!

[@chroniclesknight6964]

I removed Iuz from my campaign, he got imprisoned into the Domains of Dread in Ravenloft. My Group play a Campaign in Ravenloft previously, to make it possible

[@russellharrell2747]

Iuz was certainly evil enough and successful enough that Ravenloft would suck him up into one of the domains.

[@ez243]

Interesting ideas, especially concerning a longer imprisonment in the Castle. Was he freed by Robilar the Troublemster? Anyway, we should consider the aims of Chaotic Evil in a macro sense: a large empire of evil can create very visible chaos in surrounding regions. What if that is the goal? To make itself appear to be the main threat against Good? Meanwhile Iuz and allies and servants are more free to pursue covert goals of chaos and evil while the continent has its eyes watching this Empre of Iuz. Aside from the chaos, what if Iuz true focus is elsewhere on a smaller more sinister scale that may go unnoticed as a result? We could make up anything but grand designs within The Temple of Elemental Evil could be one covert goals. Consider other classic adventures, too, and tie them together in this way

[@weray7605]

In my campaign I have The Horned Society long-since returned to Molag and, if I'm honest, the Hierarchs have a much stronger consolidation of Molag than Iuz does at Dorakaa -- afterall, I can get miles and miles out of "City of Skulls" in which the PCs infiltrate and open a can of Murder-Hobo in Dorakaa but any adventures in Molag are purely Homebrew. .... The lands of Iuz, post GH Wars, seem ripe for just Homebrewing some Glabrezu captain, or somesuch Barbarian warlord "in-the-service-of" Iuz to get too big for his breeches and start up on his own -- and the PCs go take him out. .... In the past couple years in actual gameplay I've run a PC in a "City of Skulls"-like adventure infiltrating Dorakaa, and more recently DMed a Vatun / "5 Shall Be One"-kinda/sorta adventure. So I think, in gameplay, I don't really see an "Iuz" problem, post GH Wars era. .... I do agree that there was an Ivid The Overlord problem, but the GH Wars sundered The Great Kingdom and now that area is plenty playable, too! (Carl Sargent for the win!)

[@James-qi3tb]

I use and enjoy the Living Greyhawk setting and liberation for occupied states plays a strong role in it. Excluding their way of doing it... then players leading insurrections, assassinating the governors and generals of Iuz through a lot of their early career, and eventually leading the the freedom of their state and maybe being instrumental in the new government are great campaign in themselves. Freeing on of the smaller Bandit Kingdoms as a start and then expanding... and having to resist attempts to take it back. It all writes itself and can be very player driven. For me the Greyhawk War really opened my eyes that this is a dynamic world and things should change.

[@natureandthenation]

Admittedly I take a lot of liberties with homebrewing certain aspects of the Greyhawk setting, but I have partly dealt with this situation and partly just accepted it. I am personally a fan of the darker feel of the From the Ashes era and I think good heroes require powerful enemies. If the campaign begins in the state of balance and the most the players can ever achieve is to maintain that state of balance by the end of their careers, I think there's a bit of heroism missing from the game. If the state of balance is the goal then a campaign that begins with darkness and evil ascendant allows the characters to be the forces that return the world to that state of balance. Also it's not a far leap to say that the Barrens and especially the Bandit Kingdoms are only part of the empire of Iuz nominally. I have added some Oeridian settlements into the Barrens that help to hold back Iuz in that area, and I've beefed up the resistance in the Bandit Kingdoms, so that those areas and the Fellreeve are more accurately disputed territories than simply parts of the Empire of Iuz.

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

I've always liked Iuz as a big villain ... qhich isbone reason I had him killed off when, in my campaign, Vecna escaped, attained godhood, and cloaked the Oerth in a terrible darkness. His seat is Iuz old territory, which he has expanded; the realm is now simply called Iuz instead of the Land of Iuz.

[@michaeldrinkard678]

Great ideas! We began playing in Greyhawk all the way back in the 70's, and even though we use our own universe now, it still holds a special place in our hearts and minds. Lots of fractured realms in our universe, from a world-shaking event hundreds of years ago. Many petty kingdoms and wannabe empires starting up, getting some power and expanding, then being brought back down to size. It's like a world-sized version of the Italian City States of the Late Medieval/Early Renaissance period, with magic, monsters, and humanoids (who all want to rule the world and eliminate the competition from other species), so, all in all, a fun place to adventure. Thanks for sharing this video and your ideas!

[@jeremyfee]

If I remember correctly, back in the day, when my players went through these story lines, we did The Greyhawk Wars like a board game to explain 2-3 years worth of in-game time, and Iuz's forces almost conquered the world. One of my players had taken over the Valley of the Mage and had a secret army there. It was fun playing out the good forces allying with an undead army to seize control of enough lands from Iuz to mount a proper offensive and retake most of the world. Then we got to play out the ramifications of the war and how many innocent people suffered along the way. In the end, kind of like you're saying here, it all kind of balanced back out thanks to the heroes. Great memories!

[@solomani5959]

THis is great. Late last year I was thinking about this as my players were just finishing Against the Giants and my longer-term plan was drow -> Greyhawk wars and potentially a changed Greyhawk. But my PCs decided to retire after Giants and we started a new, separate campaign.

[@balinthebrave9996]

Love your stuff keep it up big man!

[@qsviewsrpgs4571]

I totally see you view on this. I have yet to utilize this theory in a campaign but I'm more than willing to test it out. Fantastic content as always!

[@N843M]

Thanks for the Video, A character of mine was in a Spec ops team that went deep into Iuz's territory to eliminate Generals in his Army, I totally agree breaking up his domain was critical in continuing the setting.

[@diegoborges3716]

I confess I would like a bit Iuz going full "Sauron". But that could mean a cataclismic event that could change the entire face not just of Oerik, but the entire Oerth. At the end of Expediction we saw a very weakened Iuz, but he could regain strenght and retake the plan of the Underdark army that we saw in that supplement.

[@ryanmatthews5882]

One thing that I never understood about the "Empire of Iuz" after the introduction of the 2-axis alignment, is that demons (and by extension, their Cambion offspring) represent "Chaotic" Evil...they are not generally the type to go in for massive hierarchies. I would think such a thing would quickly eat itself since it would start out as a Meritocracy and quickly devolve into a bunch of backstabbing.

[@Marpaws]

great ideas^^

[@jermwar]

Once Stalin died/Iuz was removed from the scene, the USSR/The Empire was on a glide path to a break-up and dissolution. Eventually, the near abroad secedes once it is clear that the central power lacked the will (and possibly the power) to intervene and occupy the breakaway regions. Evil eventually and inevitably consumes itself. Which doesn't mean the breakaways are on the side of good, but are likely just different flavors of evil and corruption (maybe financially, certainly spiritually). Perhaps some internecine small wars, and enclaves within enclaves. Does Iuz eve come back given the reduced status of his Empire? Or does he hand it off to a protégé / Putin-like character with the intent of sweeping back in on the eve of ultimate victory (evil is also lazy) -- if that day ever comes? Not that one should too closely track post-Cold War Great Power history -- and re-skinning current events in fantasy dress is likely counterproductive (for those who want escapist entertainment to escape from the daily news at least). But as a broad analogy, and perhaps rhyming but not exactly mirroring real world events can provide rich adventuring fodder.

[@sirellyn]

I can't really relate Iuz to Putin, Stalin sure, but Putin doesn't tend to act just for conquest. The personality and tactics are so utterly different. Maybe the horned society or blackmoore.

[@jermwar]

@@sirellyn In my scenario Iuz is Stalin, and some protégé follower--not Iuz himself--is Putin. Regardless, no need to overthink it -- the analogy doesn't need to fit perfectly in order to reskin actual villains for gaming purposes -- and for escapism purposes, probably best they don't fit perfectly or even fit well at all. Instead, paint with a broad brush, and make them have to squint really hard to even see the parallels.

[@Dave_L]

Solution #2 sounds a lot like what did happen with the Crook of Rao, i.e. Iuz suddenly loses the backbone of his grip on power, his armies of demons. I don't think he could maintain such vast holdings without the implicit threat of demons at his beck and call to deal with naysayers. There was also a tower north of the Bandit Lands that was basically a demonic torturing facility to deal with rebellious types. That would be left dormant as would any fear it caused over the local populace. In that setting, I would imagine that the Horned Society would also naturally reassert itself as they have more sway over humanoids than Iuz.

[@fredgarvinism]

I used an unseen demon wanna be to come on the scene and desire to kill Iuz in her wish to become a demi-god. His preoccupation with the unclear threat of her allowed for the lands to fall into chaos, plenty of game sessions to help that happen, petty lords with her whispering in their ear making moves on other petty lords, etc. Allowed me to keep the big boys occupied and not let my players think they were ever going to go toe to toe with demi-god in my campaign.

[@Higzilla]

I dont see IUZ as a problem. Whether active or dormant. Its a great plot point for the PC's to deal.

[@chriscoll6493]

I like the idea of Shieldlanders still thirsting for revenge and the PC's join forces with them to go on an expedition to scout out the lands of Iuz, in order to bring in 10,000 troops from Furyondy etc., etc., as far as Gran March and Bissel, to do battle.

[@andykaufman7620]

I brought up the same point and there needs to be a compelling reason (s) why the so-called 'good kingdoms' and states don't invade Iuz. They should as obviously, like Mordor they are building to conquer so it makes sense not to sit and wait around for that. It is a failure of good dieties not to act. That is why something must be introduced to prevent either side from mass invasion. OR else this is set up for a new 'world war' and maybe that is the point. It was meant to be a problem, on purpose, to solve through mass war, like WW1 followed by WW2 and Iuz and his empire is like Hitler and Nazi Germany. Think about it, if a state is evil and the other states knew it, what would they do. When Nazi Germany rose they did NOT think of it as the evil empire that we learn about only after defeating the Nazi's. The Holocaust was not well known, like the atrocities of Stalin and the Soviets, it was only later on after the fact where we learn the extent. Iuz on the other hand you know he is Chaotic Evil and his state is drenched in Evil, but then the Great Kingdom also seemed like that too, but with Iuz's empire it is even more so.

[@mcdoogle_robotman]

That's pretty cool this is the 1st time hearing about this, think my dad has some other models of Greyhawk ill have to look, I only know about Greyhawk's Ravenloft Ad&d and one of DDO xpac that was based on that setting, that's what got me into the setting wasn't a fan of the 5e I'm pretty sure you all know why...

[@hectorforth2671]

Put him back in the god tray

[@russellharrell2747]

Eye-uhz Eee-uhz Eye-ooze Eee-ooze I guess it’s like Drow like how or Drow like grow.

[@diegoborges3716]

As a portuguese born speaker, I've always read Eee-uhz.

[@JazzyBassy]

I think your main pronunciation is the current official pronunciation from WotC. There is one line in MTG Arena with the Mordenkainen Planeswalker card where he refers to Iuz and he pronounces it the way you mainly pronounce it (4:08 in the video "MTG Arena | Mordenkainen Voice Lines...")

[@terratorment2940]

there's a completely different unrelated game called The New Order: the last days of Europe. it's a mod for hearts of iron. in that alternate history scenario, Germany "wins" WW2 but it breaks apart in a civil war between different Nazi leaders. you could have this evil empire break up in a similar way with their antisocial behavior working against them.

[@tomkerruish2982]

2:59 Dynamic tension. Do you think that must be hard work? Such an effort. If you only knew of my plan...

[@TheGeekDaddy929]

Those are some good ideas. Have you done this in your own campaign?

[@Se7enBeatleofDoom]

Without Greyhawk. We would never gotten Castle Grey Skull in He-man. He-man takes more from Greyhawk than Conan the barbarian.

[@robertshulman1659]

The. Existence of the circle of 8,a major force for balance, will always push the continent back towards the conditions of 576. Like a great rock thrown from a trebuchet into a river, the events in the Flaneass flow back towards their natural course. Note that the Gazetteer is written ABOUT the year576. It is written in 998, by plugfett Smedger the Elder. Why would that great sage focus this? Because 576 was a year when great deeds changed the course of history.

[@DIEGhostfish]

At least the Lawful Evil realm lost almost as hard as Iuz's CE dominions won.

[@stevestumpy6873]

🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉

[@jacobblackmon5525]

I personally feel the point of Iuz becoming the dominant power is for the Player Characters to deal with, not the various "good kingdoms". It's indicitive of the in-fighting that goes on between the good religions and nations that make no sense, when they have an active enemy to fight. Obviously, there is corruption that needs to be handled. The PCs must do it, not the "powers that be."

[@Dave_L]

Jeepers, you need to warn us before you do that!!! I had no idea you had a complete lower torso!

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

😀

[@Amesang]

I almost feel sorry for Iuz. 🥴 First he gets imprisoned by Zagyg for his apotheosis, then he gets imprisoned by Vecna for _his_ apotheosis, and then he gets imprisoned by Igwilv for hers! 🤪 Can't these people just let him be an evil demigod warlord in peace?!

[@maximus3160]

Discard anything after the Gold Boxed Set. Problem solved.

[@briansouvey1100]

I asked Gary Gygax, once while at a Gencon, how to pronounce several D&D names and he said that IUZ was pronounced "IS". I don't know if he was F'ing with me or not ... but I have used that pronunciation ever since.

[@josefreitas753]

Iee-ooz

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

That is literally the 4th or 5th "here's what Gary told me" on this question I've heard, and they're all different. :-) I've heard eye-ooze, ee-uz, eye-ee-uz, and others. I think the reality must forever escape us.

[@elliotvernon7971]

​@@GreyhawkGrognardWe have it from Gary himself that he pronounced it 'EE-uhz' - google the Dragonsfoot post 'This may sound silly, but . . .' - 8th post down, Gary's reply to Falconer 14 October 2002. In addition Luke Gygax in the on Wandering DMs S05 E09 at 57:35 says Gary pronounced it EE-uhz (with a short Ee, so it could sound like IS in a Wisconsin accent 😃). But then again, Mentzer in Dragon 93 has it as Y-ooz or Ee-uz. Your game, your pronunciation!!

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

@@elliotvernon7971 Again, Gary was either fluid in his pronunciation, or was deliberately messing with people. We have that reference of yours, and Brian's personal experience, and I've heard "eye ooze" from Luke in person at GaryCon. So there's lots of conflicting "first hand" accounts out there.

[@ez243]

​@@GreyhawkGrognardthere is also You'z, which I never would have considered it's I remember some article claiming that's how it was said :-)

[@docnecrotic]

Now, if you could help the world remove Vecna

[@jasonsomers6302]

Agreed

[@worldbigfootcentral3933]

Wait! There's a problem with Iuz? Better check this out...

[@LoneEagle2061]

I don’t know your group(s), or your ambitions, so maybe this is unsuitable for you… One of the great TSR themes was always that “evil turns in on itself”. In many of the old settings - and of course, most clearly in the War of the Lance - the good powers need only provide little nudges, and not necessarily in expected places… What I might attempt goes something like this: Somewhere relatively secure in Iuz’ realm, start a party of evil/neutral characters. Encourage the players to think ambitiously, and (once they have some reputation under their collective belts) have Iuz make use of them… Meanwhile start a more conventional party in a reasonably safe location close to Iuz borders. The ideal would be to have different groups for each party; but that is not a luxury most of us can afford… If the metagame isn’t enough, perhaps use an NPC bard to carry stories from each to the other. You can then use the outside party to expose Iuz’ lieutenants to the predations of the inside party and vice versa. A valuable dungeon cleared here leads to the vampire running that sector falling from favour and becoming prey of the new rising stars there…

[@genehetzel2036]

What is the Rain of Colorless Fire?

[@elliotvernon7971]

The ancient Baklunish ‘nuclear strike’ type attack that turned the Suloise Empire to the Sea of Dust.

[@rikk319]

Thousands of years ago in the Western side of Oerik, the Baklunish Empire was in a war with the Suel Empire. The Suel called down a powerful spell called The Invoked Devastation that ruined the environment of the Baklunish Empire. In response, the Baklunish mages summoned The Rain of Colorless Fire on the Suel Empire, burning the entire Empire into what is now known as The Sea of Dust.

[@ajdynon]

I played a module near the end of Living Greyhawk (the 3/3.5e equivalent of Adventurer's League) where we got to ACTUALLY KILL IUZ! The whole table cheered when we pulled it off.

[@dr.davidhoward3179]

*Spoilers* My paladin 18/cleric 19 killed Iuz, went to the 222 layer of the Abyss, permanently killed Zuggtmoy and destroyed Iuz's soul object. He shattered Iuz's empire before it was built, oblitered his doman, and destroyed his allies. My wife's paladin 18/cleric 19 did the same to the Great Empire, Scarlet Brotherhood, and other Great Empire allies. She killed Wastri. They founded their own Principality around B2 with allies of Yeomanry, Furyondy, Veluna, Verbobonc, Keoland, Geoff and the Principality of Ulek. This took me twenty years of play and my wife 5 years of play (I helped her along for a couple years). Whew. The new Greyhawk is an amazing sight for paladins, lawful good clerics, & rangers.

[@sebbonxxsebbon6824]

I have a human split class 17 fighter 20 magic user if you need a hand murdering more evil guys, lol. AD&D is 40+ years old and we all have very bored high level characters.

[@dr.davidhoward3179]

@@sebbonxxsebbon6824 LOL. Well, those characters are already Overgods of the Multiverse. Taking over Greyhawk was a few years ago. I figured out how to advance rapidly, take over & ascend easily a few years back. One of the fun parts was converting Mordenkainan & Robilar to Lawful Good. Thanks for the interest.

[@dvosburg1966]

Did they go and mess with your cupcake?

[@dereklong801]

Wars and Ashes was trash, I completely ignore it. That said, in a campaign I ran decades ago Iuz was bottled up again by the combined might of the temples of Rao, Cuthbert, Pelor, Ulaa, and Heironymous, with Tenser and other archmages, in a grand ceremony in Veluna City in the temple of Rao. He is snugly encased in a version of a Zagyg's prison, encased in a warded column of stone, in a warded room in the catacombs. He is as good as gone. Thrommell III was freed from the TOEE already, and with Iuz gone Great Furyondy (the combined realm of Veluna and Furyondy) and Shield Lands crushed the Horned Society and swept through Iuz's domains. Much mischief remains after the forces of good departed, but it is no longer a ripping big unbalanced piece of the map.

[@GarrethandPipa]

maybe it is the storyteller in me or I am just lazy to learn in total a campaign setting. I haven't every really ran a module or world from whole cloth I have been world building my own thing since the 70s... I did rob stuff from grayhawk, dragonlance and eventually dark sun. But the grand story lines always smacked of... ignorance for lack of a better term. Like all power if one side levers any control it quickly consumes all opposition. It seemed fairly axiomatic for humans to self balance away from extremes if history is any example. If we lean into these grand narratives we tend to box in player choice for a given roadmap. Which players dislike that kind of format and I felt it was like herding cats into a bath. I guess the point I am getting at very seldom do these large intricate stories end with the players ACTUALLY "saving the world" except when it is scripted out like critical role. Players just don't get that lucky in my experience. They may catch the plot but not the plots inside of plots. And the only way to keep them on point is to play a director and at that point I might as well be feeding them much of the story so they can start snapping the legos together so to speak. That rarely invigorates my players as they feel they have no agency.

[@iancorrie7043]

I thought that map at the back was a small window! That's a really big room.lol.false perspective and all that.

[@jasonsomers6302]

I somewhat disagree as Carl Sargent did a wonderful job especially with things like the bloodmoon festival massacre which was lifted directly from artifact of evil . in my campaign, the players did end up taking stoink ( more like incorporating and starting gaining followers, they were mostly thieves and thief type multi class) they ended up laying siege with an army of disenfranchised from surrounding areas for a period of several days to riftcrag after a series of hit and run raids , the end result was rift crag was the victim of a heist , that ended up with cranzer being executed, for incompetence. While not creating a “ balance” the campaign starts to right itself as most of the pcs were neutral align promoting neutrality . Point being while I generally like your work ; I see the “iuz problem” as an opportunity for players and further , because it’s run by a CE overlord and priesthood and the “empire” overreaches a bit especially in the rovers and bandit kingdoms , it’s still essentially the bandit kingdoms ( think Wild West) and just as chaotic but slightly more evil that it was in 577

[@MrCSeiberlin]

The status quo was never going to hold in Greyhawk the way Gygax wrote it. Even in his articles (Sorcerer's scroll) Greyhawk updates were leading up to a much larger war and everything breaking loose. It was inevitable...like how many saw the Cold War ultimately heading. The Co8 (Team Status Quo) wasn't really about maintaining the balance and Gygax's Mordie as a character wasn't really focused on 'maintaining the balance' but instead on collecting lewt and xps....his pal Robilar if anything was an even more a destabilizing influence. If you want to play a 'balanced' Flanaess I would suggest just playing the gold box or folio and ignoring all the conflict going on and the theme that 'something's gotta give' threaded throughout (the Great Kingdom collapsing resulting in a power vacuum or the Scarlet Brotherhood infiltrating courts across the continent). Sargent's From the Ashes pushed things to a new state where there were a ton more adventuring options for the players....which should be the primary purpose of any setting...an interesting place to adventure. I just don't see a need to put Iuz back in a box to 'rebalance' the setting as FtA provides a lot more opportunities to do a campaign where the adventurers can be Heroes rather than caretakers of the status quo.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

Your first point is actually something I point to when people say they don't like the idea of the Greyhawk Wars in general. The general trajectory was already in place, although the specifics would probably have differed.

[@sebbonxxsebbon6824]

Iuz is easy to deal with, lets see I alone have some 40+ year old characters. We all get together with every bad a__ old and ancient character, and drag Iuz out by the hair, and then cut him up. Then we clone him like 50 times, all in seperate cells, and party while they all go insane! I have a split class 17 Fighter/20 Magic User with a vorpal blade that would enjoy that fun!

[@worldbigfootcentral3933]

Thank goodness, standing down from Red Alert. And yeah, It's pronounced I-OOZE like you say it, lol.

[@InventiveHarvest]

It's pronounced "YAS!!". After all he has a city of skulls. Who does that?

[@RachaelStrange]

so... is IUZ the nickname for WoTC? now.....