Greyhawk Dodged a Bullet

[@Finniganmydog]

I am pretty sure that WOTC had not touched Dark Sun and they stated a few months ago they plan not too because it is “problematic”. Thank goodness for that.

[@spencergresoro]

Which should tell everyone just how fked they’re in terms of being able to deliver any type of compelling content. You Pander to professional victims, this is what you get. Thank god they’re not gonna touch DS.

[@sebbonxxsebbon6824]

I like the term "professional victim", I won't pay WOTC a dime.@@spencergresoro

[@underfire987]

Yes a saving grace for Dark sun one of the best dnd settings ever made.

[@underfire987]

​@spencergresoro spot on man, yea wotc has no talent or anyone who cares for the game. They are done for and everyone can see it

[@SwordlordRoy]

They did publish Dark Sun...for 4th Edition...I can't tell you how good or bad their take on it was since that's one of the setting books I didn't quite grab while it was out...

[@Mr_Welch]

Change the rules to fit the setting. Never change the setting to fit the rules

[@bluebird3281]

Right on!

[@meikahidenori]

Or here's an idea, do what they did with Eberron originally - build a world that's designed for the rules and is flexible enough you can progress it and changes are natural. Then give the other settings out as optional buy ins for those who want something different from what's presented.

[@worldbigfootcentral3933]

AGREE 100%

[@raff3486]

That's spot on!

[@BW022]

I've never had any issues running Greyhawk with 5e -- I've even run one of my old 3.5e campaigns and it worked fine. I didn't even both implementing optional death rules, let alone hard core rests. I've also had DMs run 5e in the setting for me. I played a lot of Greyhawk in the 3/3.5e RPGA days and deaths were pretty rare and it still felt like Greyhawk. 4e I'll agree with, but that didn't feel like D&D, let alone Greyhawk, FR, or anything.

[@Cynidecia]

Mystara, Greyhawk & Darksun are all presumably safe for now. Let's hope it stays that way.

[@johnrodarte7397]

Dragonlance should be made safe from WOTC. What a campaign THAT would be!

[@joluoto]

But safest of all is Birthright. No one remembers Birthright even existed.

[@jeffreyquigley]

@@joluoto I member :) I have all my 2e books for it still and its my second favorite setting after Dark Sun. But also glad WotC will never ruin either of those settings.

[@frankb3347]

If I had stupid amounts of money and nothing better to do with it I would buy Dark Sun from them and give it to Savage Worlds to develop.

[@Cadiangrunt99]

Fairly new D&D player only a few years at it hi I started with Rifts my first game was in Mystara and I love it.

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

I think a setting like Greyhawk or Dark Sun is better left in the hands of those who love them, even if it means going without any new publication. I'd rather see them preserved as legends than bastardized and homogenized into sterile conformity.

[@TKFKU]

Darksun .....the best setting ever. at least for 2e

[@markwalker4485]

I loved it som much we made a world of Dark Sun for Role Master. @@TKFKU

[@TheAzulon]

That is how I felt reading the new Ravenloft. They stripped so much, homogeneized so much, that some of the things that they describe go against other things they describe in the same book. They bring stuff from the old lore, for exemple, that only makes sense in the new book if you know about the old one.

[@erikc5797]

Very well said!

[@Andre99328]

Well said. It is my observation that 5e is much less deadly than 1e to 3.5e and it is very difficult for me as a dm to transmit the feeling of real danger, let alone horror, in 5e. 5e is one of the reasons why the younger players in our group don't grasp the concept of horror and dying. They mostly just storm into melee without plan or any tactic. They were very puzzeled when halve our 10th level group died after they split the party without reason, and were almost angry at me when I told them they start at level 1. I can't imagine a Greyhawk campaign without the feeling of danger. After the half party kill we went back to 3.5e, which in my opinion more dangerous than 5e (although not as much as older dnd editions), but still not all my players grasp the concept that their charakters can die. 😅

[@MarkCMG]

Thanks for the video! "I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side." -- Treebeard

[@BockwinkleB]

Thank goodness for Troll Lord Games

[@gandalf970]

Isn't that the truth @BockwinkleB

[@willmistretta]

You nailed it. Latter-day TSR, for all its faults, was keen to let skilled creators create. To let them take the game in wildly different directions. I'm not necessarily a fan of everything that came out of that, but you can't look at Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Birthright, and so on and come to the conclusion that they were all forced to adopt the same prescribed tone. They're drastically different from one another. Completely different ways of approaching AD&D. Having what amounts to a mandate from the top that all setting and adventure material must be predicated on superpowered heroes with mile-thick plot armor blasting their way through a succession of paper tiger obstacles with smirks on their faces and quips on their lips severely limits what you can do.

[@z2ei]

This. For all of TSR's flaws, they put out some damned good content. I chose Ravenloft back in the day and don't regret it, but I've found myself falling in love with Birthright, and am getting closer to a complete collection of it. The sheer variety of setting was (and still is) 2e's strength.

[@DaDunge]

Birthright looked really cool.

[@Robcockulous1]

I picked up a lot of those boxed sets & don't regret it, although I really hated the script adherence required for online campaign resources & LFGs for post Greyhawk Wars campaigns. Greyhawk campaigns where the Wars & From the Ashes didn't happen were deemed to be 'playing in the past' & caused me to drop my 'alternate' Greyhawk campaign altogether.

[@mykediemart]

It is better left alone. In a WotC DragonLance preview live play they had a Tabaxi(catman) and an Orc (maybe a halforc) romping around - neither of which are in that setting. So yes Greyhawk dodged a bullet

[@TheAzulon]

That is the kinda of minor thing that I don't mind all that much, you can always create some lore explanation for their presence, specially if you know the setting well enough. My problem is how much they stripped Lord Soth of his original background in this iteration. He is this powerfull, tragic presence in the original...in this one he is just a High level henchmen for the dragon armies.

[@AeonVoom]

Thats owed to the modern take on D&D - which got furthered by WotC. That you can play anything in any setting. Some young players totally freak out and accuse you of 'limiting their creativity' if you try to limit what they got access to.

[@PhilS0341]

@@AeonVoom What's funny to me is that, for these newer players, if someone absolutely has to play a certain race for their character then they're limiting their own creativity. Their "creativity" it seems is limited to "Play this most broken class in D&D!" KZbin videos and Reddit posts.

[@AeonVoom]

@@PhilS0341You're not wrong. But let's be real. 5E /is/ broken. Younger players these days that love to 'build' characters, I offer Pathfinder 2 these days. It offers all they want, Golarion is cool world and the system is way more robust. Other players that enjoy randomness and love 3d6 down the line stuff get OSE, OSRIC or Shadowdark - depending on the level of crunch they enjoy.

[@Moondramon]

I mean, you could always do that in the original(with the halforc since I don't think Tabaxi existed yet.), they would either be converted for the setting(like the first modules for Halflings and elves) or be seen as something unnatural to the world(first released setting book, I think) like with draconians. But I never seen that live play, so I don't have the full context to say. But I think in the end of the day the dm would rule if one race can or cannot be in their campaign that wasn't already there.

[@tomkerruish2982]

It's easy to dodge a bullet when gunpowder doesn't work...

[@DrakeBarrow]

*Murylnd and his followers have entered the chat* "Are you sure about that?"

[@tomkerruish2982]

@@DrakeBarrow Yes. The strange wands that Murlynd used made a loud noise and delivered a damaging missile, but neither effect was due to gunpowder. These were very rare magic items devised by Murlynd's arcane understanding of technology and how to make it function magically. - EGG

[@robgruber4553]

I agree 100% Greyhawk has plenty of great content available, and lots of open area for creative DMs and groups to imagine and develop on their own. The gritty medieval flair would be lost immediately if I wander into a tavern in Dyvers and see a Bird Man, Turtle, Elf, Half Fiend, a Kobold and an Orc sitting at a table. While nearby Orcs and Fiends are mustering to raid outlying farms. I like that in Greyhawk some things are left to be the adversaries. Leave Drow as mysterious enemies, Orcs and Goblins as hated foes. I would rather they didn't touch Greyhawk than if they did things how their current settings are getting updated and written for. I am with you!

[@federerlkonig330]

I even remember how, with Dragonlance, they handwaved the possibility of non-dragonlance races with the excuse of "they came here through a portal and/or there are small enclaves around the world". That is just... Sad and lazy.

[@ReadingDave]

The answer to setting bloat is publishing modules that can be used in multiple settings.

[@davidjarkeld2333]

Always thought SpellJammer was designed to"fix the bloat" as you can just travel from one to another (Ravenloft a little more difficult).

[@kmads3572]

To WoTC's credit they actually did this with the 5e version of Ghosts of Saltmarsh. The book assumes you're gonna set it in Greyhawk but there's a page about how to adapt it to Forgotten Realms or Eberron or Mystara.

[@jamesnell1999]

I'm with you. Part of the joy of Greyhawk is anyone who wants to can pick up where Gary Gygax left off. The wisdom of WotC to just leave it be and do Forgotten Realms was one of the smartest things they ever did. There is a difference between owning the title to an Intellectual Property and ownership by authorship. When those things conflict, there is a problem especially when the legions of Gygax fans already scarred by the clock & dagger TSR politics. While I've got my OSR credentials, I only dabbled in published adventure modules like Keep on the Borderlands, Tower of Zenopus, and Judge's Guild Dark Tower and City State of Verbosh. I remember my friend DM Tim defaced the Verbosh cover my converting it to "Rubbish". Such was the fervor for DYI originality in those days that running "commercial available modules was considered "corrupt and lazy" "Well, you might as well stay home and consume what is on television." Being a tad more moderate, I wanted to see what was deemed good enough for publication. Yet I never recall having the opportunity to purchase Greyhawk - the City State or the World of. It was this legend discussed in Dragon Magazine. The size of the World of Greyhawk is ambitious. There are many regions in this multipolar world. I am still learning about how it all fits together. The years 576, 585, 591 form a band of time in it's legendarium where the history is more "filled in". A smart stewardship Greyhawk would allow for module optional additions of material that doesn't mess with the core. You know I'm a Carl Sargent fan. Who were the others authors who made substantial contributions to Greyhawk? I'm not sure if you have ever ranked or compared them in some fashion.

[@Amesang]

I started with 3e and still have a physical copy of the _Living Greyhawk Gazetteer,_ but I also have digital copies of 1e and 2e _Greyhawk_ sourcebooks; and as I typically play 5e now, I've been operating under the idea that _Greyhawk_ has been reset back to the 1e timeline.* I even attempted to write up (well, mostly copy/paste) a "Player's Guide to Saltmarsh" that would give a rundown on not just the Kingdom of Keoland but the Flanaess as a whole (history, races, languages, deities, organizations, spells by infamous _Greyhawk_ archmages, &c.), leading up to 576 ᴄʏ (took a bit of effort to track down info on the "Circle of Eight" members of that time period!), something to supplement the "Ghosts of Saltmarsh" campaign I played in a few years ago. While I haven't always seen eye-to-eye with WotC on their "for modern audiences" version of _D&D,_ and while I've always been a big fan of setting lore (I'm spent way too many school days getting lost in encyclopedias), in a way I'm kind of glad for this supposed reset, allowing _Greyhawk_ to drop some unnecessary baggage and start things "fresh." I used to lament the fact that we haven't had a new source book in over two decades, but now I'm kind of glad we don't _because_ many of the old source books are still available (at least digitally), which should be enough to get that _"real arcade feel!,"_ so to speak. *(My favorite _Greyhawk_ character, Quintessa, was born in 575 ᴄʏ, however, so when porting her from 3e to 5e I had to use time travel / alternate reality shenanigans via the "Null Obelisk" from the 2e fan module, "Suel Imperium: Age of Glory." XÞ)

[@georgeharris6851]

Living g Greyhawk was the best shared campaign that I have played in. 3 & 3.5 ed

[@joeyj6808]

Speaking as a retired GH old hand, I always thought that anyone besides the Arneson/Gygax cabal messing about with GH material was a bad idea. So much bad stuff accompanied the gems even in TSR days. But when fans/players did the work, things like Living Greyhawk happened. There was also a ton of amazing content on the online lists back in the day. Maybe I'm a grumpy old man, but WoC has never added anything I liked to the Greyhawk canon.

[@Se7enBeatleofDoom]

If only Ravenloft and Dragonlance were as lucky as Greyhawk and Dark Sun.

[@aaronabel4756]

Greyhawk is a masterpiece of a setting. It gives the DM just enough to get started and run with it. It's designed for meaningful roleplay, not the choose your own adventure style that WOTC is so fond of.

[@christopherharding7502]

Great Video. Glad I found you! My group has stuck to 1e Greyhawk since we started playing in the early 80's.

[@bleekskaduwee6762]

That is awesome. I can't find anyone around where I live who knows what thaco means

[@mega-bustershepard5537]

Much like Marvel, Star Trek or Star Wars; Dungeons and Dragons bereft of the influence of it's original creators feels like a Hollow shell of it's former self. You may occasionally get a nice product here and there but it's all downhill from here.

[@MalzraAirwynn]

To be fair, The Next Generation is considered to have gotten good from season 3 onward when Gene had far less influence over the franchises, not to mention the later TNG era shows. Star Wars also could be very hit or miss as well, the prequels are incredibly divisive and not every pre Disney spinoff was great. Though at least they weren't at war with themselves the way the sequel trilogy was.

[@jeromeace1282]

About the setting stuff, they are also moving away from the Forgotten Realms in favour of the Multiverse, with things like the dragon and giant soucebook existing as a way to have books with some implied setting content, while also potentially slotting into every table.

[@ReadingDave]

I am surprised that they stuck to the sword coast for adventures in forgotten realms. They could write a far traveling adventure(s) to introduce the rest of the world.

[@joshjames582]

I'm not surprised. They're unimaginative cowards.

[@slaapliedje]

​@joshjames582 ha, my reply was going to be, "that would require imagination" most of the earlier stuff was all over the place, as far north as Icewind Dale, to further southeast by Shadowdale, etc. Though I kind of stop paying that much attention since the Avatar Trilogy.

[@Satori2046]

Great point as usual ! However I'm very exited about this new Vecna Module and it always warms my heart when Greyhawk is used. So hopefully it will be good :p

[@user-db8bl2cl2i]

I grew up playing in the Greyhawk setting and have always considered that the setting for whenever I would DM. As a player I have always been in Faerun, but recently started playing Temple of Elemental Evil. It's good to be back in Greyhawk where I could perish any second.

[@johnalexander2551]

There's only a little peril!

[@hoi-polloi1863]

"... could perish any second" Only if you fail X number of death-saves! Bwahahahahhahahahaa

[@user-hn7rd6nr6k]

I'm still pretty new to Grayhawk I've only played in three campaigns in it so far same characters but we're treating it like a dark Sun campaign😂 Our first Dark Sun campaign we were warned about how deadly it was and treated it as such the funnest thing about this campaign setting is food management and Water Management we have literally backtrack wasting two sessions and we were actually only a few miles away from our goal because we didn't have enough water and food to make it back if we kept pressing on this is not to mention all the things that want to kill you there even if you see a plant you have to be careful because it might try to kill you😂

[@mr_gl00m32]

I think you're right, that's a great way to put it. 'The rules aren't adaptable to the setting.' This is why I basically only play 5e in a Forgotten Realms or a homebrew Forgotten Realms style setting.

[@meikahidenori]

Forgotten realms isn't really suited for 5e in the same vein though. Unlike say Xandria & Eberron which are designed to slot in pretty neatly with any rule set as there's always somewhere in the setting your players characters can fit without having to jerry rig them to fit. Fr & GH would benefit from being an optional setting source book rather than a default setting, heck Eberron is starting to go that way as well as much of what was in it lorewise either is skimmed over or left out entirely (Sarlonia and Xendrix were key locations in 3.5 and 4e now they're barely mentioned unless it's implied you just drop adventures in there without tools or lore to really flesh them out.) I'm unsure if Mystra would work as a default kitchen sink setting, but it has far more potential to be one than some of the others

[@DIEGhostfish]

@@meikahidenori WHile I'm a fan of the Greatwarish Europelike bits of Khorivaire and not big on psionics so I don't do much with Sarlona, it's sad to see Xendrik left out.

[@Goshin65]

You pretty much nailed it when you said 5e assumes high powered PCs that aren't really in much danger, and that this is UTTERLY incompatible with older settings like Greyhawk. In the old days D&D was nearly as much "survival horror" and swords&sorcery as high fantasy. You came prepared to negotiate with threats, or run from them, as or more often than just fighting them.... because that was a good way to TPK. If you did fight, you tried to stack every advantage and useful tactic you could. Flaming oil was a perennial favorite. :)

[@docnecrotic]

Thinking about it, the Oerth-lite adventures and rereleases for 5th tease what we could expect. Characters retconned with lazy pallet swaps or unrelated lore, cramming the new planes (including 4e's theme parks of fey wild and shadow fell) into the GH cosmology, shoving new races into things where they would feel awkward (also lines up with character retcons) among other things. So yes, it's a blessing if the setting isn't widely touched.

[@PhilS0341]

I only played in Dark Sun a couple of times, as one of the guys I played with was obsessed with it. The aesthetic wasn't something I liked. I respect the setting though, and I know it's lethal. I remember reading a few months ago when WotC said that Darksun was too "problematic" to be republished, and in the same article someone that wrote "Radiant Citadel" said something. What they said was along the lines of how they would love to give Dark Sun the Radiant Citadel treatment and make it more valid for modern players. Radiant Citadel. An entire adventure that caters to player feelings. Dark Sun. An entire campaign world that wants your character to die. Something about those two extremes can't really meet in the middle. As much as I would love more options for campaign worlds outside of Forgotten Realms, if they were to do to Greyhawk, Mystara, and Dark Sun what they did to Ravenloft (which was an insult to the setting, honestly), it would be the TTRPG disservice of the century. I mean, have you seen the art for the new "Vecna"? Doesn't really inspire thoughts of a "God of secrets, world spanning cult leader, string puller, behind the scenes, avoiding attention until the end of the module where he wipes the floor with you" kind of guy. He looks more like a runway model showcasing the latest in the "Look at me Fashion Line for Liches". He would attract the attention of a blind guy in the dark. It's pathetic.

[@dammitvictor798]

As an old school fan of Dark Sun... and Planescape... and Spelljammer... I think you're 100% correct.

[@GR-jw7ns]

I agree with you. I feel this way about current day Hollywood making movies about beloved old IP. I hope they don't touch it and ruin it.

[@zeIIendor]

Hey there, Greyhawk Grognard! I really enjoyed the video and (mostly) agree with it. Happy to have subscribed. Which ruleset are you using in your current game? (or which did you use last, in case you're not running any campaigns at the moment)

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

Thanks for subbing! I use AD&D with Adventures Dark and Deep supplements.

[@TKFKU]

When wizards first released 3e the Flaness was the default world. They just didn't do anything with it.

[@willmistretta]

There was a surprising amount of reverence paid toward the classics in that period, probably a reflection of the fact that it was still Peter Adkison and other "real gamers" calling the shots before the Hasbro buyout. I never really was able to embrace 3E as a game, but it was nice to see Gary Gygax back in the pages of Dragon, Rob Kuntz's Maure Castle in Dungeon, and so on. This was respectful at least.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

I think Erik Mona had a lot to do with that, too.

[@maximus3160]

Agreed 100%. I'm glad they have not done anything with Greyhawk. Would love to see them sell the IP to someone that could take an old school approach to new material. Someone like you!

[@JamesLaserpimpWalsh]

I loved those first few Greyhawk books. I know now they were based on the Flashman novels but as a kid I had never heard of the reluctant hero trope. Cheers lad.

[@imissnewspapers]

I myself am a Grognard, I’ve played D&D since 1980, I Love Greyhawk and I am a fan of the channel. I do wish you had condensed this video and your ideas to half the time it took. As a respectful suggestion, I would advise you work on a clear script prior to shooting your vids.

[@PozerAdultRacingTeam]

I still play 2nd Edition Greyhawk now and then. I got hooked by the Greyhawk Adventures novels.

[@rickspotten8497]

So yeah. 100% agree with all of this. Started playing in the late 80's when it was Basic and Advanced, just before 2nd Edition came out. 2nd was my game of choice for years, and Greyhawk was the first gaming world I played in. Though I love Greyhawk, Ravenloft is my first choice to play, and DM. I'm a super Horror nerd. Love me some old Hammer and Universal Monster movies. Grew up watching them and Godzilla Movies on Saturday afternoons. I never had the chance to play Ravenloft in my youth, but I made up for that in my 40's when I got a super deal on the pre-Conjunction Boxed Set Used on Amazon. After that I bought up as much as I could find (and afford at the time) and jumped in head first. Now, in my regular D&D games my players were always a bit scared, as they should be. Playing Ravenloft they were terrified. Four Encounters during a five segment night watch while in "The Wilds" as RAW. And that isn't even mentioning anything that I Homebrewed! The only reason I switched to 5E was Covid broke up my Home Game and there was a DM playing 5E on Discord. If I wanted to play, had to switch. He's a really good DM. Not over heavy with magic, fair in his decisions, he's ok if a Character dies, and he throws encounters at us that we should rightly run from. I've DMed a bit in 5E, and it isn't terrible. Now when 5E Ravenloft came out I was SUPER excited. Ordered it the day it came out on Amazon. Read through the bulk of it the day I got it and was more than bit disappointed with it. It wasn't anything that anyone was asking for. I don't wanna say that they neutered it... but they did. It is not the Ravenloft of old. That being said, I still have all my 2nd Edition Ravenloft materials, books, and maps, but now I have updated 5E conversions that I can use with the 2nd Edition Lore. That can also be said when and if WotC decides to destroy Greyhawk worse than Gary did in the last Gord novel. You could tell he was pissed when he wrote that one. Hahaha. Anyway. Enjoyed your video and subscribed. Keep up the good work and keep Greyhawk Alive.

[@ConkerKing]

First setting i ever bought is that original Greyhawk box set way back when i was a teen at college.... Still got it, and often refer back if just for the nostalgia chills :)

[@z2ei]

WOTC's never really known what to do with D&D. They pushed the Realms hard with 3rd, and it worked as long as Ed Greenwood was still around. The 3e FRCS is hands down, perhaps the best product they've ever put out, and it's why I'm so hard on them. But, it was made largely by ex-TSR vets. Then there's "using" Greyhawk as the default setting but doing nothing with it outside the RPGA - and that's sad, because the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer was a great product, but got no attention at all. Everything else got farmed out to third parties (Dragonlance, Ravenloft) or left to die.

[@tinyhowie]

I still use 2e and 3e content for my 5e FR. My players were so surprised that it's presenting so much out of their expectation.

[@z2ei]

@@tinyhowie My 5e-only friend (they played 3rd once, had a terrible experience, and almost quit) has gone back to pouring through AD&D stuff for Spelljammer and Planescape.

[@scetchmonkey007]

all my 5E games I run last from lv1-20 and take around a year to complete. Been a DM for 30 years. It holds up if your an experienced DM

[@PhileasFog-cs2bz]

I absolutely agree with you. The Greyhawk setting is too low fantasy for a D&D5 version. Let's hope they still keep it untouched. Because everything they touch turn into mud. To be polite. Thanks for your channel. It's always a pleasure to watch your videos.

[@markgagnon7795]

I ran a 2 year campaign in Greyhawk in the Pomarj peninsula! Love it!

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

Ever read my Dragon magazine article about the Pomarj?

[@ajaxplunkett5115]

Full disclosure:{ Being a class of 81' Grognard } --I decided 4 years ago to play 5e and DM using Greyhawk as the setting. I did this in Order to change/ modify the 5e rules and limit starting PC races ( of course even in Greyhawk a player could always run a sort of humanoid type race ) limit Cantrips ( Prof. bonus + ability mod + level ) use the DM guide optional rules for a more gritty / dangerous game that would also fit Greyhawk. It worked for a while , as the healing rules and limited cantrips and Thundercat/ star trek races were not allowed. BUT...... Eventually half of my players started to resent the rules changes ( even though most game from the DM guide options for 5e ) and wanted to be 5e superheroes with " Thundercat " races--- plus many 5e spells started to tip the gritty realism aside and i still got power bloat. I now run Greyhawk with ACKS ( adventurer conqueror king rpg ) for a public library teen D&D club and Basic Fantasy for an Adult D&D club. Greyhawk as a setting works great for those systems and would also work for most OSR games ( OSRIC, For Gold and Glory, OSE, Labyrinth Lord etc ) >>>>>>>>>>>> As you said - 5e and Greyhawk just are not that compatible - even though I used Greyhawk as an excuse to minimize the 5e power bloat... in the end player expectations and ingrained rules mechanics just work against the Setting.

[@ajaxplunkett5115]

not sure why there is a line crossing out most of my comments?? -

[@chrishall5440]

It looks like the new adventure WotC is dropping in May, Vecna: Eve of Ruin, will be a fetch quest for the rod of seven parts that features Greyhawk as one of the worlds the PCs must go to (along with Ravenloft, Eberron, Sigil, etc.). It seems like WotC is attempting to do a D&D greatest hits mash-up crossover like Avengers Endgame. Tasha and Mordenkainen feature heavily, and WotC's recent video on the book shows artwork of what looks like Kas.

[@dereklong801]

Well, very nice of them, considering the Rod comes from Oerth.

[@purplemicrodot58]

WOTC: In full-on Trinity leather and shades, "Dodge this."

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

I literally LOL'd when I read this. 😀

[@booksbricksandboards783]

With you 100% on Greyhawk, I do disagree a little on the Realms. I think the Realms would have benefitted from not being part of the Wizardsification. The weird changes made each edition to the setting to try to explain the huge differences in rule application and the sometimes very large departure in depiction of areas (Thay for example), really changed Faerun for the worse in my opinion. I had a player for my upcoming Savage Pathfinder campaign ask to play in the Realms, my answer was sure, but only Pre Wizards Realm. Running the Grey box, Undermountain, Volo’s Guides era. I feel like that was mostly Greenwood’s vision still, and as a result was more cohesive. I also felt like the world was more sandbox ready because all of the hexes hadn’t been filled in. Just my thoughts! Great video!

[@DKarkarov]

Forgotten Realms is made for Monty Haul high magic theme park campaigns. Greyhawk was made for... actual dnd. WotC can't do good RP based low magic/actual risk to the player settings period.

[@srellison561]

I still own most of the original TSR products, including the Greyhawk boxed set. I also liked Gamma World, Top Secret, and Boot Hill. I also have Star Frontiers and Dragonlance, but I never really got into them.

[@johnalexander2551]

When our DM ran Ravenloft years ago, it was like a really long escape room. It was unnerving, but I remember that feeling more than any other campaign he ran. That was genius.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

That's an excellent way of describing it.

[@Noctis198]

I used to hate early on that 5e never did anything with Greyhawk but when I then saw what they did to Planescape and Spelljammer I am happy they never did.

[@sebbonxxsebbon6824]

I wonder, if Gary Gygax was still in charge in the mid to late 80's early 90's who would Gary have picked as the main opponent? If not Iuz who?

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

I don't think there needs to be a "main opponent". I love the idea of a lot of different opponents, ones who are even at odds with each other.

[@leobrulotte1448]

Honestly, I kind of like that Greyhawk has been an oft-ignored setting by TSR and WotC. The gold box already provides a solid overview of the setting, and from there I like to fill in the blanks myself. All I'd like to see published is more Greyhawk modules, but I don't really see WotC recreating the feel of classic 1e modules, so that's a job best left to the fans.

[@OtherDAS]

Huh. I'd been sad that Greyhawk hadn't gotten any new updates. But you're right. The new WotC people would have damaged it. We did dodge a bullet, you are 100% correct.

[@RPGPundit]

You're absolutely right. I'm extremely thankful that WotC doesn't give a crap about mystara

[@motagrad2836]

I agree that different settings have different feels, and would go further and say that they tend to play better in one system than another because of this

[@elementzero3379]

There is no "new" Dark Sun stuff. WotC consider it too "problematic" because of slavery and ubiquitous injustice. They're probably right, in this present climate. Just as you are happy they've not ruined Greyhawk, I'm happy they've left Athas alone and unchanged.

[@williammeek7218]

I have the funhouse Castle Greyhawk book. Also the boxed setting. Started there and teleported to Mystara where I adventured mostly. But I was never able to run a campaign consistently. Just ended up solo playing. Using the DMG tables and various one shot caverns from Dungeon magazine. I did keep all the published material I picked up over the years. I even have a Elric supplement. Made my own version of Moria. And 3or 4 worlds of my own design.

[@joeyj6808]

At one point I had every single printed Castle Greyhawk book, set and module. Also much online fan content and Living Greyhawk content printed out LOL. Many forests fell to fuel my addiction back then. Hold on to that stuff, comrade. I have regretted giving it away almost every day since I shipped it to KS.

[@newmark2020]

I don’t believe that teleportation between worlds such as Greyhawk and the Known World(Mystara) existed. I suppose a special magic item or other non teleportation could be used

[@williammeek7218]

@@joeyj6808 it’s two of the big long file boxes. Plus about two hundred miniatures

[@markgagnon7795]

Not yet but I will look for it!

[@kanrakucheese]

Masque of the Red Death was allowed on DM's Guild since it's technically a Ravenloft subsetting rather than its own thing. *Every* product using it had to start with a lecture on how the past was evil. I can't imagine Greyhawk getting off any better. Eberron (a post TSR setting) barely getting any support in 5E was a mercy. As for 5E Ravenloft not being threatening: That's 5E for you. The math of the system is so broken (as in doesn't work unless you have a mass of rolls to let the slightly skewed averages work the right way) *everything* has to be a big bag of HP so the averages start to work out. It doesn't mater what the adventure writer's mindset is, the system just flat out doesn't support anything beyond a pillow fight.

[@MerlinTheCommenter]

Gary once said something to the effect of “changes have to come from multiple perspectives before execution.” And that includes taking integrity of settings into consideration when looking at it mechanically. I think WOTC has been looking at it mostly from one or two perspectives and that’s why you see such downgrade material.

[@MrSiren52]

Although I'm really more of a 3/3.5 guy, I can totally see 5th working in Greyhawk as there are lower power settings (no feats, using reduced stat arrays, limiting races, excluding the more fantastical sub-classes, etc.). But this is something better done by someone who loves the setting and wants to just move it to a new edition. The last thing WotC would want to do is create a setting where so much of their "expanded content" would be disallowed.

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

Realistically, though, nobody uses those rules.

[@balinthebrave9996]

Best of times , played D&D for 43 years loved 3.5 swapped to Pathfinder 1st edition but feel a little left behind now as I enjoy long campaigns and the old modules, Greyhawk was a great setting at least they have not ruined it by such idiocy as the spell plague just to front a new rule release , peaked with a 4 year campaign and characters finally getting a couple of epic levels on my own world. Good times

[@Kidharlo6723]

I’ve happily embraced some more recent D&D additions such as the Feywylde and Shadowfell into my Greyhawk setting: parallel demi planes which are twisted reflections of my Greyhawk world, it adds crazy depth and potential to the setting. I feel justified in incorporating it into my Greyhawk, early modules like UK1 Beyond the Crystal Caves show that a place like the Feywylde has a long tradition in D&D. And of course the original Underdark will always be the original D-series to me!

[@chrisbeck7266]

I see a lot of people saying "This is safe from WotC for now" or "That is safe from WotC for now" and so on. The truth be told, if you have the old source material you don't have to do what WotC is doing with their setting. Play it as written, make it your own, etc. On a side note, I believe they're getting away from The Forgotten Realms so they don't have to pay Ed Greenwood and other crators and artists for their material contribution to the setting.

[@balinthebrave9996]

After watching the full video thank you I totally agree

[@Mr_Welch]

Let me go back and face the peril No its too perilous

[@Robcockulous1]

When a setting changes enough for DMs to not continue to base their campaigns on the publisher's works (1991+ "Five Shall Be One", "Howl From the North", "Greyhawk Wars", "Rary the Traitor") is the correct time to discontinue the setting. They were all well written & good in their own right, but it really was the death knell of Greyhawk being an open setting allowing DMs to let their players take the campaign to new heights by their own hands. Greyhawk became a script to be followed instead of a setting for a multitude of independent, although possibly connecting scenarios.

[@janetcameron4652]

Thanks for keeping Mr G's original setting alive. My personal opinion is 5e is more like the original basic D&D for kids. 5e is not a bad game but not the game D&D use to be. Love Greyhawk. Based my campaign ,in 1979, on Greyhawk.

[@doctorlolchicken7478]

I don’t know how accurate this is, but I always explain to people that Forgotten Realms is Marvel’s Lord of the Rings and Greyhawk is Game of Thrones. I am also glad WOTC rarely touch Greyhawk.

[@johnedgar7956]

I couldn't agree more with everything here. Thanks Joe. You are 100% correct. What exactly is this new upcoming 5e project that touches upon the Greyhawk setting? I've somehow missed that.

[@WhiteOwlet]

Fully agree, tbh. 5e is a very whimsical, optimistic, high-magic game, and that's very different from even 3.5e (let alone 2e or advanced). 5e is well-suited for those MtG settings, but not really for old D&D settings.

[@murgel2006]

After I had to suffer what they did to Spelljammer I'm very happy that they concentrate on FR and do not F+++ over the other D&D settings. FR fits into their attitude of "Overpowered Heros", I mean D&D always had some form of power inflation if the GM did not counter it but FR is a perfect setting for that style of play. I love various D&D settings like Greyhawk, Mystary, Zakhara, or 2nd ed. Spelljammer for their flavour and ideas, and like it that WotC has spared them their "modern roleplaying" ideas.

[@RichFranks]

I couldn't agree more. I hope WotC NEVER touches Greyhawk again.

[@jeffreyraia]

I just discovered your channel and subscribed. It's great to be around fellow older guys who adventured in the only world that matters, The World of Greyhawk! BTW I'm done with WoTC as well.

[@HugoGlz56]

i agree, I think of my 5e player as charters on the movie SWAT or HEAT.

[@telamonides4031]

Thanks for the video.

[@michaelturner2806]

While WotC has published a lot of new setting books for 5e, they seem to be one off products and not something with ongoing support like the setting lines of past editions releases. Theros, Strixhaven, Ravnica, maybe a couple others in forgetting off the top of my head, were original IP from their Magic the Gathering line. As far as I can remember, they released just the setting book and no adventures or supplements, except maybe some light free online tie ins. Eberron got an updated book as well, but again just a one and done product. I haven't heard much about Dragonlance, but I had no familiarity with the line, and I'm not caring too much about what WotC is doing these days.

[@nerag7459]

Greyhawk had already been subjected to the supersonic projectile with the Greyhawk conflicts.

[@raymondhemphill146]

KEEP GREYHAWK ALIVE!

[@matthewgordon3281]

I haven't seen ANY Dark Sun stuff for 5e from WotC outside of some monsters ported over to Spelljammer or Planescape. What material are you speaking of?

[@sumdude4281]

4e maybe?

[@jeffreyquigley]

Any chance you'll do a walkthrough/review of the Age of Worms adventure path? That was based in Diamond Lake in the Cairn Hills near the city of Greyhawk, and the adventures appeared in Dungeon magazine issues 124-135. I adore that AP and would love to hear your take on it.

[@drmadjdsadjadi]

Basically, Greyhawk is the real forgotten realm.

[@knghtbrd]

I don't think it's a secret that with every new release WotC gives D&D players-not necessarily their DMs-more and more powerful options and abilities pre-approved by WotC, making it ever harder for a DM to say no and keep the power creep in their campaign under control. As a result the risks are mostly there by player consent. Unless you're railroading your players, which you shouldn't be doing, they players will always have the option of a safety net past the first couple of levels unless they explicitly choose not to have one. And newer canned adventures will instruct a DM to introduce a safety net at those early levels if the players are struggling. The game tries to have few limits for players, which effectively puts limits on the DM. Old-school styled games, be they old editions of D&D, retrocolnes, or more modern creations that wnat that want to reintroduce the challenge and sense of danger of the older games all have limitations. The GM can raise, change, or remove those limitations, but the players never feel they're being cheated by doing it this way because it feels like they're gaining rather than losing. And it's easy to impose another thematic limit or two of your own because it fits with the theme of the game, especially if you've relazed one or two others. It all feels fair to the players. That's why even more high-fantasy/high-magic games can still be played pretty easily in an old school system (and have been for decades), but why it's so hard to have real danger in 5E. A system with limits is inherently more flexible than one without them.

[@destroso]

There are so many awesome OSR products we don’t need wotc. 5e is fine if you use the right rules, you can make it into ad&d. In fact the 5e books say the world should be low magic and to use the rules you want.

[@jamesgillen2339]

Sometimes I think that if there's anything worse than a product line going out of business, it's continuing and going downhill.

[@thatpatrickguy3446]

No, you're spot on. WotC barely knows how to do anything but escalate the powergame, and Greyhawk is not remotely meant for that. WotC's decision to ignore Greyhawk kept it from destruction, unlike all the other things that WotC destroyed or at the least made worse through their lack of understanding. If actual gamers are not in charge of gaming companies then the gaming companies are going to fail. Both Williams CEOs, TSR's from the 90s and WotC's modern day, have proven and are proving that fact. But that's the corporate mindset where the standard operating procedure is a one size fits all solution, and if it fails then it is somebody else's fault. Most likely those idiot customers who forget that their only purpose is to shovel money at the corporation for any with no matter how awful it is. I also agree that 5e isn't an awful game, it's just that the powergame escalation and the one size fits all corporate mindset means that the "finished" products tend to need work (and often lots of it recently) before they're usable, which hurts the game. Especially when it seems that too many DMs I know feel that they need the published adventure series because they tell me it's nearly impossible to balance created adventures since the plethora of player options make it difficult to plot out and balance an adventure.

[@BalderOdinson]

"Anything else can be seen as a competitor to that, even if they publish it themselves." I have never heard such a succinct description of WotC's MO ever! This applies to TCGs and RPGs! They might publish something for a base set and expansion, but no way will they support it longer! A good game or setting might need a second to find its fanbase, but they'd rather take the cash-grab and then scuttle it so it doesn't possibly harm Forgotten Realms and MtG. They could use secondary games to innovate ideas for both genres of game, but heaven forbid if the fanbase doesn't have to bend the knee to the mainline. Ironic how Cereal companies operate with the exact opposite mindset. They jam as many different flavors and products as they can at the shelf and hope all the options keep you from noticing anything made by a competitor. Or better yet...try to find chips not made by Frito-Lay...

[@bobfore3839]

Big fan of AD&D, enough source to allow great adventures without being so much that it was overwhelming.

[@sumdude4281]

I love Greyhawk and Birthright settings. I'd wanted WOTC to revisit them b/c I wanted to share my love of these two former TSR settings with new players. In the end I am very grateful WOTC never did. Very. I think the word you were looking for was tone. The inability for current WOTC to get tone right. Like with the Marvel movies, Disney decided at some point all its movies would go tonally toward Thor Raddnerock and we get Love and Thunder etc. WOTC and Disney have corporate bland about them. They don't do nuance and marketing department wouldn't let them even if they tried.

[@DaDunge]

11:390 they introduced clerics to Dragonlance.

[@shadomain7918]

Hey good to see you. I stopped by your booth at TotalCon last weekend

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

Thanks for coming!

[@exphelbekeme]

They did try to destroy Athas in the 5e with the Spelljammer books, but changed in the last minute. The Doomspace is an renamed Athasspace where the Dark Sun became a black hole and is slowly consuming the planets of the sphere, with the main planet being a wasteland inhabited by thri-kreens, sorcerer-kings, defilers and other dark sun's monsters.

[@olafbuddenberg4787]

No hate for you, good sir. Instead: a subscription! Keep it up!

[@GreyhawkGrognard]

Wonderful, thank you so much!

[@AtomicSnackBar]

Ah, it was a simpler time ... Two months ago. Really interesting video, nonetheless. Though I was really into D&D during the late 80s and early 90s, I was a mere lad and never heard any of the behind the scenes goings-on. I just knew what I saw on the shelves at Walden Books.

[@silverwolf5101]

I agree with your comments regarding Wotc on the whole. I really didn't like what they did with Dragonlance. It just felt like a generic setting. I actually would like them to create a new setting, so it doesn't come with any baggage, and its up to the DM and the players to shapr the world. I do think you're being unfair to Ravenloft. Wotc did flesh out Barovia nicely, and it is very dangerous. I usually am the DM, but I was fortunate enough to play Ravenloft. There were times when the party had to run away. Thank you for the video.

[@Joshuazx]

What do you think of the game Olde Swords Reign? It's a hybrid of 5e and od&d, and it fixes all the problems I have with 5e.

[@AK_Wargamer]

I totally agree with you. I am glad they didn't embrace the setting like Forgotten Realms.

[@SiriusMined]

I agree about 5th edition not scaling. There are elements that were added that I do like , but overall, I feel that the PCs are overpowered. That's why I've been playing HackMaster 4.0. It's all the good stuff from 1st and 2nd Ed AD&D, deadlier, and a half-way decent skill system added. I run all of my campaigns in Greyhawk.

[@docsavage8640]

You don't want Greyhawk turned into a 2024 Seattle Starbucks?

[@ruthb7605]

As far as I'm concerned the 5E Ravenloft book is a travesty, they have taken a brooding setting where every character should struggle to survive, and turned it into a Dark Lord of the Week monster bash. We are lucky, my husband and I, we rarely sold any of the old setting box sets and books (I think Red Steel and Iron Kingdoms were about the only two we no longer have). All editions of Ravenloft (I tend to pull out the original when i decide to run it, I think it is by far the best, although I will use some of the updates from the 2nd release of the 2nd ED, and the books from 3.x D&D as they can provide some interesting extra material), Darksun, Forgotten Realms, Mystara, Spell Jammer, Council of Wyrms and Hollow World and of course the old Greyhawk box set, complete with poster maps, a little ragged around the fold lines, but useable with care. An old world can always be used, you just have to adapt the current system to fit it, or use an older edition of the system.

[@BW022]

GG another excellent topic which I’ve thought about over the years also. My thoughts… In the end, I agree with you in that this was probably best for Greyhawk. However, there is also the flip question… Would WotC be better off if it had kept Greyhawk? You tend to flip over the 3/3.5-era where Greyhawk was the core setting in the books, Gazetteer, and the RPGA. From 2000 to 2008 (and beyond for most home players) it was the main setting and it served well. Ok, 2008 WotC releases 4E and its heavily influenced by anime, video games, and high fantasy. Best for everyone it was set in FR as split players between 4e, 3.5e, and Pathfinder. Now, the question would be in 2014, what if WotC released 5e set in Greyhawk? Well, sure they could mess up the setting via the high fantasy / easy mode, but I’m not sure it had to be that way or that Greyhawk wouldn’t have benefitted them. a) The 5e rules don’t require much change to make them grittier. What if a GH setting got them to adjust the ‘hard core’ rules for death saves and resting as the default and then the DMG adds “epic settings” with the current rules? b) 5e actually plays well with all the GH 1e, 2e, 3/3.5e content. Guides, leader levels, history, abilities, etc. I’ve played the same 3.5e campaign in 5e and the conversion was fairly easy. Just move a few races to the DMG and it's fine. c) It would have given more options for modules, settings, locations, adventure paths, etc. than the non-setting of the core books and the FR like books. d) It would likely have avoided a lot of leftover 4e feel in terms of artwork, play style, etc. By 2024, it would be less ‘dated’, more grounded, and give a more solid basis for the game which would probably serve them better. e) It Might (big M) have better grounded WotC. It could have seen more buy in, kept older players, more third-party modules/content, etc. WotC might have seen D&D slightly differently. We’ll never know, but I suspect WotC would have been better off to make the mental shift from generic or FR to Greyhawk. It would be an admission of what D&D is vs. a fantasy of what some suits falsely dreamed of what it could be.