Flair's Persona Power Tiers Chart Explained

When's the last time you and a friend got into an argument about how powerful Persona characters are? Such conflicts will never occur again now that FLAIR'S PERSONA POWER TIERS CHART EXISTS. Listen to us explain how strong Persona characters are in comparison to each other and learn a lesson about friendship.
The image; puu.sh/yYXj1/7685d2e873.jpg
follow me, do it; @fitherfith

[@jackw8338]

“Power of friendship” didn’t work in Innocent Sin

[@ProfessionalNamielleLewder69]

The Power of Friendship didn't work against Nyx either. Friendship is a human concept. Nyx is older than the universe itself.

[@belmontzar]

@@ProfessionalNamielleLewder69 but itnwas the power of friendship that awoke P3 heroes ultimate power that helped him become the door we all love. The bonds he formed took shape and created the Universe arcana.

[@ProfessionalNamielleLewder69]

@@belmontzar It didn't kill Nyx. It just put her to sleep. Plus, killing Nyx is impossible because there's nothing to kill. She's a concept.

[@RoundPi]

It did almost ended the world a second time.

[@bearandthebull2372]

@@ProfessionalNamielleLewder69 Tell that to nyarly in 2.

[@Manual-Daniel]

sojiro is the most powerful character without a persona

[@MagillanicaLouM]

Danny 17245 Could poison your coffee or curry, OP strats

[@mrdontgiveafuck5482]

The Currys too op

[@SammEater]

Well, he has the voice of Nier and Iron Tager so he's probably pretty strong.

[@MagillanicaLouM]

SammEater oh snap now I'm picturing Tager delicatelym making curry...

[@ninjacdarkin]

H O O O O B O Y

[@tcoren1]

Adachi is like one of the guys who go “yeah, I used arsene the entire game... I don’t really get shadow negotiation/fusion”

[@LilyArtemis2]

True

[@GobaGNon]

I used arsene the entire game cuz he looks cool as hell

[@Mars-pw4iw]

@@GobaGNon same lol

[@manuelhernandez-og7co]

Finally people who understand

[@princeoflight7098]

Guess I’m like Adachi

[@flareb99]

Ssssssssss tier is Mona making you sleep

[@mrdontgiveafuck5482]

Flareb 99 it's the work of a enemy stand!!!!

[@horriblekellible]

nahhhh it's "GO TO BED"

[@yankeemania2345]

Tier above that would be Kawakami's massages

[@Girentina242]

SPARE COOCHIE, LADY ANN?

[@kyleauthinus7517]

SSS^SSS^SSS tier is Mystery food X: The Final Edition

[@aurumarma5711]

Yaldabaoth was whatever the people wanted. They wanted an all powerful god, so he was. Until they wanted their heroes to win, so he lost.

[@neptuneplaneptune3367]

Kinda a Drawback when you are made out of the Poeples Desirers to be controuled. The moment they relise thet DONT want it you are screwed.

[@kaydenbryant3774]

That’s pretty accurate

[@anderss.viking3084]

@@neptuneplaneptune3367 And that is why he probably executed the whole fuse reality and mementos together thing to keep the people wanting him for as a being of desire the moment that desire goes the being goes too.

[@NIHIL_EGO]

P5's story in a nutshell: Masses of Tokyo: We want a DADDY~♡ to dominate us UwU Yaldybaby: Oh sweet, I'm alive ! Masses of Tokyo: We changed our minds. Yaldybaby: /('_')\

[@goncaloqueiroz4075]

Yeah in p5’s case it wasn’t power of friendship but will of the people

[@personanerd8933]

Plot Bullets, they've claimed so many... Shinji, Akechi, Yaldie, practically everyone who's died in this series.

[@friendlyelites]

There's actually 1 thing stronger than plot bullets, femc's plot pocket watch she gives to Shinji

[@toyohimeyeswatatsuki6917]

@@friendlyelites it's have plot armor

[@justderp5713]

Shinji get in the fucking EVA to fight streg- oh nowait he already fucking died okay

[@iwannadie9245]

The strongest is pancakes,beef,burnt lasagna and bread

[@personwithdelta]

akechi was claimed by a real bullet though

[@flapjackxl]

So Jesus is in the same tier as Hitler.......alright.

[@Red-nw2yn]

no makoto is sssss tier using the powah of friendship to unlock universe arcana same with yu narukami to unlock world arcana, while also same level as ren/satanael's spirit plot bullet

[@reoshimizu6853]

I am YHVH..... I Suck Male Piss, and I am this hypocrite god who wants nothing more than the continue my control over the Multiverse for no reason other than to feel supreme.....

[@Red-nw2yn]

@@reoshimizu6853 mmm, i must report this immediately to axiom and stephen. We need a new messiah

[@emmanuelmbuse7985]

@Amfram lmao dead ass 😂😂😂

[@ilngsisfh]

Amfram are you calling Hitler a Jew?

[@salokin3087]

Akechi in a maid outfit? Mkay

[@anthonymichael7888]

Oh yeah...

[@darthballscratcher]

kinky

[@anthonymichael7888]

CMRhexen The dripping *Coffee* on your mother's *table*

[@Weigazod]

"A very fine choice"

[@jhk8396]

*HOO BOY*

[@SalvationKH]

"Personaless Losers" *chooses a pic of Mishima* Yea, that's about right!

[@johnsonbaroncaveler6634]

Hey, mishima did something useful

[@angellexgamer5416]

Yeah, he made a website… … … … … he’s based ok.

[@omarzudan1743]

The discord mod of Persona 5. "You post bad comments about Phantom Thieves in general? BANNED"

[@drbuni]

Mishima is by no means the best P5 character, but he is better than the disgusting pedophile teacher (the social link one people seem to love) and the disgusting Velvet Room pedo bait loli.

[@kipzonderkop1994]

I named my p5 protagonist as Mishima, dialogue really confused me at times when the other Mishima was introduced lol

[@filthyweebs759]

Should've name him "Evidence".

[@itsmemnmxd3701]

@@filthyweebs759 why evidence

[@devanplays3509]

@@filthyweebs759 no you should name him "mybutt"

[@jelliott7080]

@@devanplays3509 absolutely hilarious

[@damiank9443]

Kazuya?

[@Icarusblade123]

I'm glad to see my Jesus Door is up there in the big leagues.

[@protagonist-kunspersona5860]

Odysseus could someone explain the Makoto Yuki door meme to me is it because he's a blank slate I really need somebody to explain this please help

[@Icarusblade123]

Protagonist-kun's Persona He sacrificed his life(kinda?) and became a door to separate Nyx and Erebus(both of which were explained in this video). Basically sealing her from him. Thus, he's a door. And Jesus. Since you can't kill Nyx, who's the concept of death itself, he did the next best thing.

[@protagonist-kunspersona5860]

Odysseus alright thanks I mean I got the Jesus part but the door part was kind of lost on me thanks for cleaning this up for me

[@Icarusblade123]

Protagonist-kun's Persona Np friend.

[@tonyz2841]

Odysseus Yeah but they didn't use Minato Arisato as his name smh

[@idonotmakevidsyet]

Correction: The reason why joker was able to one shot Yaldabaoth was due to the power of the same collective conscious that gave birth to the god e.g. the cheering and crowd change of heart. That is why he was able to take him down.

[@nekotorin]

idonotmakevidsyet More like the cognition of everyone (since they are still in the metaverse albeit fused into the real world) thinking the same thing (they all want Yaldaboth out and support the phantom thieves) made it into a reality.

[@GrumpyOrangeCat]

which is the power of friendship. technically, the people aren't P5 protagonists friends, but it's still the same.

[@Jotunn96]

This is really funny because it means the personaless losers as a collective should also be ssss

[@DeadNelo]

So what your saying is yaldaboth lose because he got cucked by the thief's?

[@BitchChill]

He still did it

[@clintmckee1751]

Question is: Who is the best dancer?

[@jouheikisaragi6075]

Clint McKee Black Mark

[@Kmkmkms]

"Mark danced crazy" I think that answers the question

[@Gameorama91]

I'd say we gotta wait for P5DAN and P3DAN to come out before we make a full judgement on that one lol

[@atromin8009]

brosuke (yosuke) for now is the best. (?)

[@AriyaLawliet]

best boy minato of course

[@Entropic_Alloy]

I know this is quite old, but anothet point in Tatsuya's favor is that he suffered through Nyarlathotep's bull shit in his scenario in P2:EP and came out relatively sane. I doubt most people could do the same.

[@hamchau1468]

The depressed persons 3 cast going against a bunch of cosplayers with with guns is a pretty funny image. I’d love to see the reaction the p5 cast has when they see the evoker

[@Jotunn96]

Ryuji would probably think it was cool and then he'd try it...

[@voidlooksback]

@@Jotunn96 oh no

[@Zwei-II]

I think Persona Q2 has a pun about it

[@bw6188]

Royal implies that Goro essentially developed 2 different "selfs" (his public image and Black Mask) and those selves were so complete that they each gained a persona. Also Yaldaboath didn't straight-up beat Igor, he basically sucker-punched him while he was setting up P5 and split Lavenza while she was in her "infancy"

[@revoltman-needsmoreclickbait]

the SSSSSS rank is missing and the characters at the top should be......... just ATLUS Edit: looking back at this comment two years later its not that funny why did i get 500 likes?

[@adelaidesandotherbottles2639]

isn't the plot bullet basically atlus in disguise though

[@Red-nw2yn]

well thats obvious

[@Pie_The_Man]

They would be around the rank of Maki because they have the same power as her just in a much larger scale, like... say if you're the FEMC, ATLUS could just *think* you out of existence

[@sevengerEX]

@@Pie_The_Man And they could pause Erebus from bringing The Fall just to have Jesus dance.

[@gitgud3245]

No Koromaru

[@KaibaKid_]

Fither: Soft mic. Flair: *Earrape mic*

[@ThatNigga333]

Avery Reid flair makes this shit unwatchable

[@musicwalls]

You've got their names mixed up

[@aidenshaw4620]

this is a genuinely fun concept, i love shit like this. thanks again dads for another good video

[@Vexin980]

I would argue that Yaldabaoth isn't stronger than Philemon, because Philemon just doesn't do anything DIRECTLY anymore. He's actually keeping his word by not interfering directly.

[@elgranhermano8872]

Him and nyarly No point in interfering again

[@ProfessionalNamielleLewder69]

Good to know Makoto/Minato is getting the respect he deserve. He is the closest thing Persona has to an SMT Messiah after all.

[@cipherrae5643]

All hail emo jesus

[@jermaine_namikaze5121]

@@cipherrae5643 😂😂😂

[@x-49nightraven]

Not gonna lie, P3 has both of SMT and Persona essence itself. Literally why majority of people claim that's the best in the series.

[@poiigf7344]

Ｔｈｅ ｇａｍｅ ａｌｓｏ ｄｏｅｓｎ'ｔ ｐｕｌｌ ｏｕｔ ｔｈｅ "ｏｈ ｔｈｉｓ ｂｏｓｓ ｉｓ ｉｎｖｉｎｃｉｂｌｅ ｂｕｔ ｉｔ ｃａｎ ｓｏｍｅｈｏｗ ｂｅ ｂｅｋｉｌｌｅｄ ｌａｔｅｒ ｉｎｔｈｅ ｇａｍｅ."

[@phantomnite]

His ultimate persona is also called Messiah

[@TheKewlPerson]

You're forgetting that Chie can literally punt any enemy out of existence

[@crim1662]

they all scale to outerversal anyway it doesnt even matter

[@ZTr00p3r]

True this list is far from accurate.

[@TheEmperorRaidou]

@@crim1662 Around outerversal + I believe

[@rewoperomdeeni5340]

@@crim1662 wait what do you mean?

[@jaejae123]

Mark's localization is the most powerful since he can use "Maniggadyne"

[@ArshadZahid_nohandleideas]

BRO❓ 🤨

[@n543576]

I was about to immediately question the logic in placing the Persona 3 and 5 at C ranking, but the fact that P3 users need evokers is definitely a rank dropper, and the P5&4 users can't use their Persona's outside of designated location is an excellent argument. I actually forgot P1 and 2 users are fighting in the real world with their Persona and arent restricted to just one.

[@Hexic920]

But weren't the p4 users able to summon their personas just fine in the artificial dark hour in p4 arena ultimax without an evoker?

[@jorjorbanks8876]

Doesn't the p5 + p4 cast use their personas in persona q 2, which is neither the metaverse or the Tv world.

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

@@jorjorbanks8876 persona q and q2 are cognitive worlds, like the metaverse in p5 or the tv world in p4.

[@Zarathustra_infinite]

@@Hexic920 the P3 cast can too in ultimax

[@justgggamer4338]

well they don't need evokers in P4AU

[@fafaaf61]

Comments on the rankings: F: Makes sense. E: Makes sense. D: Yeah this is weird because there are 3 people that fall under the name Sho Minazuki: Sho, Minazuki, and their combined form. While I agree for base Sho, I think Minazuki and final Sho should be a bit higher, albeit probably not enough to get them out of the D tier. Agree for investigation team though. C: Don't really agree with SEES's placement. Ultimately, in a fight of personas, skill, experience, knowledge and mental resistance mean jack except with how they relate to the persona. Knowing this, saying that SEES has combat experience isn't enough and we have to rely on feats. SEES's feats are...not that impressive. Their best feat is fighting the Nyx Avatar which doesn't seem to be more powerful that Izanami when not fighting seriously. Not to mention, they fight the investigation team equally in Arena (this is particularly notable as it happens after the main P3 story, meaning that even after their growth and evolution of personas after P3, they are still only able to match the investigation team implying that base P3 SEES might actually be lower than the investigation team). The Phantom Thieves however, do have a verifiable feat. In Okumura's palace, they were easily able to tank the big bang. True it might not have been the actual big bang, probably much much smaller. However, since palaces rely on imagination, Okumura surely has at least some inkling on the power of the big bang and thus since the attack spawns from his mind, must be pretty powerful. Ultimately, I agree for the phantom thieves, SEES, I'd place in D. B: Agree for Rise. Both P1 and P2 crew should be much higher with P1 possibly being SSS for being able to take on Pandora, a version of Maki while in her world and P2 being high SSS, possibly even low SSSS for being able to fight on par with being like Nyarlathotep and Philemon (I'll explain this later) and manifesting in the sea of souls. Note, neither boss showed any indication of holding back except offhand comments about the battle between Nyarlathotep and Philemon being a "game". Even then, if its nothing but a game to them they both seem very invested and very serious about playing. A: Agree for Yu who is shown to be much higher in power than the rest of his teammates. Adachi is very often suggested to be equal to Yu so that also works. If what you say about Naoto is true then yes, although she shouldn't be able to take on ANY persona as some personas are just that strong. Junpei should be lower as even if he fused with Chidori's pesona and may have a healing factor, there's no indication that that actually matters in the long run (after all he did only fight equally with the investigation team in Arena). Ultimately I'd place him in low B at most, but likely lower. Labrys I also disagree. Normally a robotic body wouldn't matter in a fight of personas but since she is specifically designed to fight shadows, her robotic nature does giver her an edge. However, that edge probably won't put her in the same level as Yu, a wild card user, so I doubt she should be A tier. She's most likely close though so I'd giver her a high B S: Somewhat agree for Shadow Labrys as you stated, she is able to basically control the entire world of Arena. However, there's no indication that this power trumps the wild card and while I'd say it likely does simply due to the scale that it operates at, it's not an absolute truth so I'd say she seems more fitting for high A tier. She also seems to lose these powers upon fusing with Labrys probably putting her on base Labrys's tier. Ren and Goro (who should be the same power level) should be SS tier (while the rest of the phantom thieves were able to fight full powered Goro, I consider this an outlier and just assume Ren was putting in most of the work. If you don't like that then we can assume that Ren at that point in time and Goro are weaker). As you mentioned Ren defeated his final boss more "absolutely" but one must also take into account that Yaldabaoth usurped the Velvet Room. Since Ren defeated him, that should put him and Goro firmly in the same power level as the Velvet Room (or at the very least, only a little lower). I see no reason to believe that Aegis is more powerful than Yu, other than her being a shadow killing machine. However, as Arena shows us, this probably doesn't mean much considering that Yu is able to match her in the game. I disagree with Tatsuya as he should be much higher. You mentioned the universe ending thing but even besides that, he's able to match Nyarlathotep and Philemon in power and is able to maintain his identity in the sea of souls, a place where everyone is the same and the definition of an "individual" becomes vague. SS: Agree with Igor and the Velvet Room and Hino Kagatsuchi for reasons stated. About Nyx, are we talking avatar or "true" Nyx. The avatar is very weak probably being only C tier being defeated by SEES. "True" Nyx on the other hand should be higher. There's no indication that Erebus is as powerful as Nyx so I'd say that argument is invalid. Not to mention, "true" Nyx was going to bring about the fall which would end the human collective unconsciousness. In addition, the human collective unconsciousness was created in the first place to prevent Nyx from awakening so she should at least be Nyarlathotep and Philemon's level which I believe to be tier SSSS(I'll explain this later). She could possibly be lower or higher as she does have the potential to end the collective unconsciousness but was ultimately defeated by that same collective soooooo... Disagree for Marie and Izanami (who should be at the same power level). While her defeat wasn't as "final" as Yaldabaoth's she was still ultimately defeated by Yu and even if she survived, I'd see no reason that that would put here higher than S tier. Adding to that, the fog, while claimed to be the end of the world, only seemed to be limited to Inaba while The Fall and the fusion of Mementos and the world are both worldwide phenomenon. SSS: Agree for Maki, albeit possibly higher. Philemon and Nyarlathotep should be higher at SSSS as it is explicitly stated that those two are the two halves of the human collective unconsciousness, which beings like Zeus, Chronos, Yaldabaoth, and Izanami are born from. Their only competition should be "true" Nyx who as I've stated before has the potential to end the entire collective unconsciousness. Not to mention Philemon was able to reset the universe, possibly the highest feat we've seen in any persona series (yes, I know Maki was able to create a parallel universe but she is still a part of the human collective unconsciousness while Philemon and Nyarlathotep are wholes, making them a tier higher). Makoto should be on the level of "true" Nyx as he was able to defeat and seal her but it was implied that he had trouble doing so. I'd say that would be around SSSS as well. SSSS: Agree for Zeus and Chronos. I haven't played Persona Q yet so I'm just going off the wiki but they should be vastly powerful. The only reason that I think that Philemon and Nyarlathotep should be equal to them is that the ending implies that Philemon could escape Chronos's webs but chose not to for some reason. It's also unclear if that butterfly was Philemon as Persona 5 shows that other people can transform into the blue butterfly, leaving the possibility that it was actually Igor who is explicitly stated to be missing. The fact that the embody "life" and "death" also muddles their relation with Philemon, Nyarlathotep and Nyx (My personal interpretation is that Zeus and Chronos are actually versions of Philemon and Nyarlathotep respectively explaining how Chronos was actually able to trap the butterfly). Nonetheless, assuming the butterfly is Philemon, then Chronos and by extension, Zeus should be this high tier purely for the ability to trap him in the first place. Completely disagree for Yaldabaoth. There's nothing indication that he is anywhere close to SMT's YHVH. His biggest feat is fusing mementos and the world, a feat that is easily trumped by Maki and Philemon's creation of entire universes. Not to mention he was explicitly created by the human collective unconsciousness (something YHVH would loathe to admit) but unlike Zeus and Chronos has no good feats to show for it. At best I'd give him SS tier but he's possibly even lower than that as its implied that his usurping of the Velvet Room was a sneak attack an it'd be unknown how he'd fare against Igor in a fair fight. That's not even mentioning the fact that the Ren was able to defeat him at full power. (also regarding why Philemon didn't interfere with Yaldabaoth's plan, at the end of P2, Philemon promised not to interfere with humanity thus explaining his absence. It's also possible that he wanted the phantom thieves to defeat Yaldabaoth to prove a point or he feared that direct confrontation would result in damage to the collective unconsciousness). SSSSS: Makes sense.

[@guygaiden9501]

Wtf this is literally an. Essay to get into an anime college

[@EasilyBoredGamer]

so do you just.... hate yourself

[@LegionofPugs]

Makoto had trouble defeating Nyx because he couldn't fully control the Universe Arcana and Nyx was virtually unbeatable because death is unbeatable as stated in game.

[@kamataro1482]

But Nyx ain't death tho. Erebus is.

[@fafaaf61]

No, Nyx is death, Erebus is humanity's collective desire to die.

[@juztsmug]

I thought Aigis kept her wild card in Arena because she changes to her ultimate persona in her instakill.

[@59hawks]

SmugLad actually palladian is her first persona, athena is her ultimate persona, however since she is able to change her persona I think she does. also I think Yu and Elizabeth both imply that she still has the wild card.

[@Kageryushin]

Philemon doesn't get directly involved in PQ or P5 because he and Nyarlathotep swore off direct involvement after the events of P2. After the secret boss battle with Philemon in particular, he decides that humanity doesn't require his intervention, they're capable of confronting their struggles on their own. This mirrors Nyarlathotep's own cessation as an active force in the setting, he himself declaring that humanity will destroy itself with or without him. That in mind, Philemon and Nyarlathotep are fundamentally symbolic entities personifying all of humanity, the persona and shadow respectively of the entire collective unconsciousness, so when Chronos is shown entangling a butterfly representing Philemon, it's meant to convey the collective entanglement of humanity/the protagonists in the sticky situation of PQ. Not only are we shown the butterfly being entrapped, but it also escapes "on its own" in the end, signifying the victory of the protagonists. Philemon and Nyarlathotep negate and recreate the timeline/universe itself during the events of P2 - I think this sets them above any of the other antagonists in the Persona sector of the setting, even Chronos pulling his own time shenanigans . Although it's difficult to say whether they're direct representatives of the Great Will in a direct sense, as it's obviously not as focused on in its sector of the multiverse and it's otherwise portrayed as "the Absolute" in a philosophical sense - the sum of all being, of which humanity is but a single aspect - they're certainly representatives of the collective will of humanity itself, for good or ill. That definitely plays into the motions of the Great Will, which recreates YHVH in accordance with humanity's wish for the salvation he offers. In a similar vein, Nyarlathotep says himself, "The masses of idiocy that squirm in the center of the cosmos are yourselves. As long as you exist, so too shall I." Humanity itself is his Azathoth, who he is said to be the messenger, heart, and soul of; Lovecraft's Azathoth is the blind idiot god who dreams all of reality in the Cthulhu Mythos, denoting that the universe itself was founded fundamentally on senseless chaos. Azathoth was based on Lord Dunsany's Mana-Yood-Sushai, who also dreams all existence and must be lulled into eternal slumber lest he awaken and the dream - the world itself - cease to be. Azathoth was further symbolic of Arthur Schopenhaurer's 'world as will', an idea in which the phenomenal world, and consequently all human action, are the product of a blind, insatiable, and malignant metaphysical will arising unconsciously within all things. In other words, Azathoth is "the Absolute" - or nearly so - of Lovecraft's mythos, and his agent and avatar, his YHVH, is Nyarlathotep, who has a special interest in human beings. These are the beings at the heart of a cosmology whose central thesis is the universe as an enormous horrible unknown expanse in which human-scale entities are specks, our helplessness to truly change anything will drive us mad, and the best we can hope for is that the attention of the one god who actually cares about us, Nyarlathotep, _might_ consider his actions pulling off the blinders and introducing us to the truth on terms that don't immediately destroy us rather than torturing us for fun. It's the perfect pessimistic counterpoint to Jung's optimistic Philemon. Now, obviously Azathoth got its own representation in P5R as a standalone persona, but it was actually in a symbolically fitting way, given its role in taking control of Mementos in Yaldabaoth's place. Although the method is different in the Persona series, demons arise from much the same place as they do in the rest of the franchise - the Sea of Souls takes the place of the Expanse or Atziluth - the 'World of Emanation' where ideal reality springs forth from Ein Sof, God in his form as the Absolute - which itself is the wellspring of souls in Kabbalah. In P5, we see demons forming directly from shadows, who are fundamentally all part of Nyarlathotep, whereas Philemon is portrayed as the collective persona, who the demons can be recruited as. All these symbolic gods are arising from the Sea of Souls as representations of human will through these two entwined entities. Demons in P2 were similarly born of ideas that Nyarlathotep - or one might say humanity itself - gave tangible form through the spreading of rumors, bolstering their significance in the public consciousness. Izanami, Chronos, Yaldabaoth, Hinokagutsuchi - when you strip away the contrivances behind their manifestations, what are they but incredibly powerful demons arising from the Sea of Souls who embody specific aspects of human sentiment relevant to the themes of the stories they appear in? They are the salvation through damnation that people wish for, just like YHVH himself. Even the Clockwork God says that he was born from mankind. Nyx is a bit weird, but seems to arise from the Sea of Souls as well, and at least significant aspects of her manifestation are entangled with Nyarlathotep in _some_ ambiguous capacity, given her relation to shadows as a whole. So as far as Persona goes, it seems obvious to me that Philemon and Nyarlathotep are definitely at the very top, representing all the clashing forces of human ideals played with throughout the series. By the same token, it would be slightly reductive to say that all the demons/gods which are embodied through shadows or personas or manifest independently are direct agents of their singular will, because they're not singular independent entities themselves. They're the most comprehensive active representations of the collective human spirit that will underlie all human endeavor and struggle for as long as humanity exists, but Nyarlathotep isn't some commander bidding the other antagonists to rise from the Sea of Souls and go do their thing every game, at least not anymore - they all arise intuitively and act in accordance with the motions of the collective unconsciousness, just like Philemon automatically breaks free of the web when the protagonists succeed. This is much more of a reach, but Philemon's 'Persona' equivalent during the extra boss fight is just himself as a big golden head, similar to YHVH. This may just be Kaneko's design philosophy for god-like beings showing through, though. By comparison, Nyarlathotep's final form as the Crawling Chaos in Eternal Punishment is described as "A mass of gods with 1000 names and faces at the center of space." He's covered in agonized faces, or perhaps masks, which play an important role in P2 and its symbolism (particularly regarding Phil and Nyarly themselves), just as with the P3-P4 shadow enemies. As I mentioned before, demons just automatically arise from and are recruited as personas from shadows in P5. It all fits together.

[@flashsaberf4622]

This is completely correct. Tbh this tier list in the video is garbage.

[@Kageryushin]

@@flashsaberf4622 I wouldn't call it garbage, they're just having fun. Powerlevels really aren't thaaaat important to MegaTen, after all. It's just I think the symbols at play are really cool and I hoped I might spark some thinking about the subject two years after the fact. But yeah, although they've never been able to capture a villain quite as hype as Nyarlathotep after P2, even if Nyx and Yaldabaoth make a good go of it, I also think that, while less obvious than Phil's (who has butterfly savepoints and the whole Velvet Room to his name), Nyarly's legacy is still very much present in the games, even if Atlus has been as deliberately coy about his relevance as they were about YHVH in the mainline games prior to SMTIV. There's no way some of this shit is a coincidence, though. Like, come on: imgur.com/a/jOp0fAb

[@tomtik101]

I'm confused by a good few parts of this, but otherwise, I greatly appreciate the time and research that went into this comment and the connections it makes to the references mentioned, and I think the overall point, along with the analysis, is spot on. The list in the video is garbo, though.

[@Kageryushin]

@@tomtik101 What parts were you confused about? I'd be happy to try and clarify any points I made when I've got the time.

[@tomtik101]

@@Kageryushin The parts of the 2nd paragraph concerning the Great Will, the 5th paragraph (Kabbalism/Gnosticism greatly confuses me in general), and your very last point with the shadows in P5.

[@lordradiance2530]

Strega should be ez SSSSS tier ez, takaya is loaded with plot bullets but he can only get one per cutscene.

[@MasaUnix]

I mean he is revolver jesus, that gun has the power to kill anything as long as its is in the cutscene

[@Dadan-dan]

You forgot that Door-kun is the only persona user (until now) that have been able to do fusion spells by himself. It could be atributed to him having Death sealed inside (a feat on its own considering that he didn't go crazy) but since he can used even after its no longer sealed it still count. About zeus, I was sure that Elizabeth just let herself be possesed and that by her being an idiot she was overtaken. I think that PxD Naoto should be a tier lower since while her power is story breaking if she was not a sexist dick it still just affect personas and should be able to work on the users themself, meanig that if Adachi just went and shoot her it would still be as efective as with any persona user.

[@treanaharris2724]

People call Naoto sexiest but it just shows that even after awakening you still have to work through your issues. She's struggling with her self and how she should interpret her gender.

[@sociallyawkard5675]

The Japanese name actually implies its something different from fusion spells, in P2 its named sync skills, P3 it's mix raids,fusion spell is a mistranslation

[@thomasthecoolkid7228]

​@@sociallyawkard5675 Still tho, he can use multiple Personas _at the same time,_ not needing to use them one by one.

[@sociallyawkard5675]

@@thomasthecoolkid7228 I dont see that as an accomplishment or even a judge of power tbh, when most megaten protags are summoning like 5 demons at once

[@thomasthecoolkid7228]

@@sociallyawkard5675 Cool. MegaTen is not Persona. Persona is Persona, and when it comes to Persona, you generally can't use more than one Persona at a time regardless of being a wild card or not.

[@Namingway248]

the ability of the p2 persona users to actively change the world through rumors and their awareness of that should put them a little higher imo. while that power is ultimately not enough to stop someone like philemon on its own, it both was the start and end of rumors that culminated in the deaths of a ton of people in universe

[@dontsmoke187]

If I recall correctly, Philemon is extremely weakened after the events of Persona 2. So that could be why he didn’t try to stop Yaldabaoth. But I could be mistaken so idk

[@nekotorin]

RagingRaven187 Thats right

[@Sketchy_2]

Damn you used maid Goro Akechi on the chart that was my pfp, too bad I just changed it the day before this video lol

[@taz2477]

devilman hype

[@MichaelVavor]

Lol man

[@samueljames1166]

Not sure if this is true, but I read on the Megami tensei wiki that after persona 2, Philemon is in a weak state and just appears as a blue butterfly throughout 3-5.

[@cake2277]

That is somehow correct.

[@a.m.aworld2802]

You're correct for 3-4 and in PQ but in 5 it was lavenza

[@KBX12Gaming]

@@a.m.aworld2802 it was lavensa until the last butterfly, the last butterfly appears at the same time as Igor and lavenza leaving so in a way it's Philemon getting back his butterfly power

[@AverageRomanceEnjoyer]

Goddamnit, I’m stupid. I thought this was gonna be a powerscaling of the characters’ personas for some reason

[@Fitherfith]

Green Tea 123 it kind of goes in tandem, generally the strength of a persona is what we use to determine this sort of stuff

[@AverageRomanceEnjoyer]

Fither in a way, yes, but at the time I was thinking of a literal Persona powerscale, like with Messiah, Satanael, and Apollo being ranked as such

[@RAPIDO2917]

@@Fitherfith u have wrong tier scaling dude i give this to you so wrong truly kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z3Wzi2mtapVqmas

[@thewerdna]

Honestly I'd put Nyx higher, because every other deity comes from the collective consciousness of humanity, besides Nyx. The Collective Consciousness came about as a result of life on earth evolving to try to defend itself from Nyx and keep her in a slumbering state. Moreso, this only happened due to life incorporating fragments of Nyx's power (shadows) into themselves. Yet if awakened she can wipe out all life, including every single god (Philemon, Nyarlathotep, Izanami, Hi No Kagatsuchi, Chronos, Zeus, Yaldabaoth) due to wiping out the Collective Conciousness along with all of humanity. The Collective Consciousness only works when she's asleep, as it keeps her asleep. But if awakened, it can't stop her. Meanwhile Philemon and Nylarlathotep are each representative of 50% of the Collective Conciousness, with Philemon being the god embodying all the collective good of humanity while Nylarlathotep is the bad of humanity.

[@kazeace853]

TheWerdna yeah I've been saying that too. I mean before the "creation" of life she was there and she descended death to the world meaning she's the reason why all living things will die no matter what, and that's just one skill. She just wasn't able to reveal her strength in Makoto's fight and the fact that that fight wasn't their full power because NYX never shown her true form SEES just assumed it's the moon and Makoto have enough power to split his soul to reincarnate for 3 months and can probably do longer if the graduation wasn't 3 months away.

[@LTDLetsPlays]

there are alot of idiots who thought NYX can be Killed

[@andresarancio6696]

I think a lot of people confuse the power of Nyx the big god eye in the sky with the power of Nyx's Avatar the gender ambiguous black angel with a sword

[@LTDLetsPlays]

NYX is the concept of death so it really doesnt have a form far as i know but you are probably right

[@thewerdna]

Andres Arancio yeah. Nyx Avatar probably does go where it is on the list, though Nyx itself should certainly by in the highest tier

[@togglebott7748]

I’d definitely put Yaldabaoth lower and Nyx higher Minato never actually defeats Nyx, remember

[@Jotunn96]

22:12 I mean sure Door kun technically kept his power but Yu kept his life

[@ljaquos]

I would like to point out that Ren's final feat with Satanael is heavily implied to always be a part of Arsene. Like he literally could have whipped it out against Kamoshida in theory. It was just a matter of whether or not he would have been able to handle it.

[@ovensmuggler5207]

I think it also has to do with his growth as a person and the support from the masses

[@NegativeInsalt]

Makoto has Death sealed in him, so it's not surprising for our favorite door to be above Igor, since he can assumingly perform persona fusions by himself.

[@fallenstars9172]

doesn't tatsuya beat both philemon and nyarlathotep, as well as survive in his hellhole world without losing his sanity? at the very least that should put him in the same tier as philly and nyarly. he also stops time with nova kaiser.

[@FPSmaster291]

Yes, Tatsuya helped defeat Philemon and Nyarlathotep. He did keep his sense of self in the Kaddath Mendela which normal human can't do, also; he also fought and defeated Great Old Ones or Archetypes there. I agree he should be at Philemon and Nyarlathotep's level.

[@TheGaymos]

Started from the bottom now we here

[@AyoSomeAsshole]

I thought your ass was in Cuba

[@TheGaymos]

Greece with Biggie

[@fork-man]

Started as a bunch of nobodies now their literally god slayers

[@chrisf.9595]

Philemon is underrated He's literally Persona's YHVH, except he's not an asshole

[@tldr585]

@@koitern8785 bruh he's under nyx

[@iq9844]

He kind of is an asshole, he technically helped Nyarlathotep destroy the world in innocent sin

[@ZTr00p3r]

@@koitern8785 you’re right this list is not accurate.

[@dokkanbattleplayer2921]

@@tldr585 Just stop

[@kichiroumitsurugi4363]

@@iq9844 All because of a bet that he made with Nyarly, and subsequently lost because Nyarly had a trick up the sleeve

[@ksomiak8623]

10:30 Ren's Awakening: *Gains Satanael from the support of everyone in shibuya.* Yu's: *Gains Izanagi-no-Okami from the support of his friends* Yeah, it's more his power, of course.

[@Spooky-zz9ms]

And especially using his arena feats, Yu should be above Joker for sure. I really don’t understand why everyone says he’s the weakest.

[@ivanpreciado8266]

@@Spooky-zz9ms yeah, i was wondering that, yu’s agility and strength based on the arena games is tremendous, battling Elizabeth and other gods is incredible. And I think he has the ability to fuse personas on the go in the anime without needing to go to the velvet room.

[@Logank192]

@@ivanpreciado8266, the anime isn't canon, and actually, assuming combat in the Arena games is canon, he's actually WAY weaker, at least compared to other protagonists. Both Ren and Minato are stronger than the rest of their teams combined. Yu's teammates and former S.E.E.S members are capable of fighting him, even when he has Izanagi-no-Okami. The logical conclusion is that he has to be much weaker than at least Ren because Ren is more powerful than Igor, who's the second-strongest Velvet Attendant.

[@thomasthecoolkid7228]

​@@Logank192 Yu only ever uses INO for his instant kill though, so that could explain it.

[@ApexGale]

"We don't know what exactly that means." Igor tells Makoto that "no miracle is beyond realization to you now." I think that means that to some extent, Makoto can make anything happen, so long as he gives up a proportionate amount of his own life.

[@kazeace853]

Zenith Tempest he doesn't have to sacrifice a piece of his life to do anything. What he did was stop the "true NYX" from awakening by sealing her and using himself as the lock since only himself is strong enough to be the lock of the seal. And to fulfill his promise he split a piece of his soul to Earth and reincarnated it for 3 months and watched their life without telling them what happened and waited for their promise to be fulfilled. And the reason why Aigis remembers everything is because she's made from the plume of dusk which came from NYX. So Elizabeth is currently looking for a way to awaken him and find a way to SEAL NYX without his power so he could come back. If Elizabeth succeed then Minato will reincarnate and probably never ages or basically is a God himself.

[@Rettomus]

Using the Universe didn't make him lose his life, transferring/transforming his soul and life force into the Seal did.

[@chestertamayo1894]

Technically, the limits of what the Universe Arcana can do is really what the Entire Collective Unconsious cannot do, if the theory of the Universe Arcana being the power to draw upon and use the Entire CU is true. Also yeah, P3MC dying is just a side effect of using your own soul as a lock. P3MC died because his soul is being used as the Great Seal, his soul is the only thing powerful enough to actually block the CU. P3MC could theoretically have a go at True Nyx and possibly even win and kill it but that would result in all life including his being forfiet

[@humanindebt9898]

y'all do realize that igor has said this shit to literally every other new gen protag right?

[@darkraioxxx]

Also remember Rise was able to keep up with Elizabeth. Yeah she was holding back but Yu himself could barely keep up with Liz when she was holding back. He needed the power of friendship boost to get back in. Though I would put her between P1 and P3 characters. Another thing gameplay wise Yu and Ren outdo everyone. Edit 2: Could put Toro in A tier too

[@Awesomeisme7000]

Darkraioxxx well he did fight through most of the P4 cast and P3, chances are he'd be a bit fatigued

[@Awesomeisme7000]

And go on to defeat shadow labyrs

[@jhk8396]

Darkraioxxx mo Yu is stupid and lacks IRL physical proficiency, while Ren is a parkour master and thief, and if you max Hifumi's social link, becomes a strategic mastermind.

[@thepumpkinpyromaniac3848]

Elizabeth herself explicitly stated Yu was at the limit of his Stamina after he just fought Aigis at her full power. Not to mention the other 7 or so persona users he fought beforehand. Later on in the week he fought Hi-No-Kagutsuchi, (a god who had the power to destroy the world) EVENLY without using Izanagi-No-Okami, Adachi tipped the scales at the end but that doesn't change the fact that Yu still rivaled a god in combat.

[@Qscope872]

@@jhk8396 wrong, why do I see so many comments bashing yu and overstating joker. he is not a parkour master, his speed and strength were enhanced in the metaverse which allowed him to move like that upon instantly getting his persona, he is indeed a master thief, but hifumi was an average shogi player who had most of her games rigged, her training helped joker coordinate the phantom thieves better, it didn't make him into a genius. yu is not stupid nor lacks physical proficiency, aside from naoto he was the most competent person in the Investigation team. and lacking in physical proficiency? what the fuck? where is there literally anything that implies he was lacking in physical proficiency?

[@TheKingofUruk]

What about chad narukami blanco?

[@jouheikisaragi6075]

Mrawesomez or Shaggy Rojo?

[@Fitherfith]

he gets rekt by El Jokero

[@jalenware4722]

What about goku negro

[@TheEmperorRaidou]

@@jalenware4722 Yu bodies Goku

[@andrewmanchiraju8005]

The power of friendship helps everyone except for Tatsuya, cause him being with his friends destroys the world :)

[@yunarukami6792]

How is Junpei on the same class as Yu, I don't think his special ability puts him on the same class as a wild card user.

[@kazeace853]

Yu Narukami Since probably because he's a 2 in 1 person and his persona didn't evolve it was combined so he have the possibility to move it to 2nd tier but stronger than the others, plus he can regenerate himself and heal allies even in the real world. So it's more on the capabilities that he can do.

[@yunarukami6792]

KazeAce I still feel that he should be on the "B" tier cause it sounds like a lot of what justifies his spot on tier "A" is potential which is similar to Rise. Naoto should also be tier "B" cause it sounds like her special ability is useful on a normal persona user but would be rather limited on a wild card, unless she can alter the parameter on all their personas at once.

[@kazeace853]

Yu Narukami Which is why they said it's debatable, I'm fine with it either way

[@naoki-kashima2635]

Yu is the weakest wild card user

[@couch3303]

I wouldn't take the list so seriously, it's supposed to be a fun thing imo. Comparing power scaling based off of feats is a flawed concept to begin with. Just enjoy the video.

[@scuffed7648]

Honestly Maruki is an interesting case because if we’re going at him at his full power I think he could probably be SSS tier or at the very least the strongest persona user. Now my reason is that at his height he could totally bend reality to his will and the only reason he lost is because he wanted to give the thieves a fair fight and try and convince them to join his reality willingly instead of forcing it upon them. If he really wanted to he could have just won by not accepting the calling card which he willingly accepted or simply stopped them from coming by forcefully manipulating them. If Maruki was evil and didn’t care about making it fair the thieves wouldn’t have had any chance at all at stopping him. He literally tapped into and hijacked the subconscious of every single living person and if given enough time he could have literally made his reality the true reality with no going back at all. This is just my opinion tho but I do think Maruki is op as shit and he was just holding himself back because he’s not an evil or malicious person who wants to harm people.

[@Downval]

Maruki has literally the same reality control as maki so theyd just end up being the same tier excluding how much longer her persona powers spent in the collective unconscious

[@brandoa1131]

The persona 2 users were able to fight Philemon and nyarlethrotep(twice) I think they could be a little higher.

[@ZTr00p3r]

This is not accurate at all. Like how Yu defeated Aigis and he is below her.

[@newcar4141]

@@ZTr00p3r so how strong is Philemon tho and is he stronger then nyx because I heard people say she is the strongest

[@Evilshadow529]

@@newcar4141 in reality no, because Philemon and nyarlethrotep are reality controlling beings. Philemon is every good thing about humans (personas). While Nyarlethrotep is everything bad about humans (shadows). In persona 2 innocent sin, Nyarlethrotep destroyed the first world except one town, I think. As a result, Philemon created a second world, a fake world with all the souls and identities of those who died and were copied, which is everything you play and fight for in persona 3, 4, and 5. Everything that every shadow can do from nyx to yaldabaoth can do, Nyarlethrotep has already done it in persona 2 Innocent sin and eternal punishment. Even if you kill one of them, they will come back.

[@newcar4141]

@@Evilshadow529 so then nyx is the strongest

[@Evilshadow529]

@@newcar4141 why do you think nyx is the strongest

[@tree4124]

One of my favorite videos by one of my favorite youtube channels. Great work dudes

[@stxriesunfold]

Goro in the maid outfit, goddamn. Also Tatsuya was brilliant in P2 Eternal Punishment

[@gavamelon]

"If Strega had the power of friendship Zeus would be fucking dead" lol

[@gumdropkimi]

that dude with the SUPER LOUD MIC keeps making me have to adjust my volume every time cus the other dude's mic is soft as hell so i gotta bring my volume up but then instantly turn it down again when the super loud mic dude speaks up even just a bit lmao

[@hovdeep]

i like how i can just listen to your guy's videos while i work, and dont have to stare at the screen to keep up.

[@jacobe2891]

I think that Adachi isn’t a Wild Card because: •He starts out as the Jester Arcana rather than the Fool. •It’s arguable that he never had a chat with the Velvet Room attendees.

[@Logank192]

I've never played Persona 1 or 2 but all the characters in those game can use multiple personas so I'm not sure the first point matters.

[@Fitherfith]

That's true but the same can be said for Goro who definitively has to be a wildcard user. His arcana is Justice, and as far as we're aware he never visited the room either.

[@jacobe2891]

Logan Kavanagh The reason all of P1 and P2 party members can have multiple Personas is because they all are of the Fool Arcana.

[@Logank192]

I'm just going off of what's on the wiki, maybe you're right and I'm just missing something but I see nothing saying anything about any of them being the Fool Arcana. Also as Fither just said, Adachi could and he wasn't the Fool Arcana.

[@Kmkmkms]

Jacob Eppler no thats not it The reason why is because they could go to the velvet room if a persona was wayy out of their arcana personalities they couldnt control the persona good They dont all have the same arcana plus fool is for a journey so yes the group is fool but not their individual arcanas

[@Loldude66671]

I'd like to argue that Narukami should be on level with Akira I mean Ren due to him gaining the ability to rewrite reality yes he gets Izanagi no Okami through friendship BUT it is shown he RETAINS this power in arena when he activates his "truth" to ista-kill

[@kazeace853]

DoctorSlamtasm they're kissing P5 MC's butt too much

[@TheEmperorRaidou]

@@kazeace853 And Makoto as well

[@TheNamesDitto]

Yu doesn't need a persona to steal yo girl

[@lordnpc3953]

This is an incredible list. Thank you

[@bearandthebull2372]

Keep in mind,nyarly appeared in devil survivor canonically thanks to the amala network.He was around beelzebub level,aka multiverse level.make of that what you will.

[@nekotorin]

Orlando Carrillo Nyarlathotep and Philemon should be the highest tier because they represent the extremes of both sides of humanity. Humanity asking for death (Nyx) where in death is part of the evil of humanity which Nyarly should have been clear. And literal power everyone uses (Persona) came from Philemon. Yaldabaoth being able to hack in thr Velvet Room is because Philemon had to recreate the universe TWICE.

[@chestertamayo1894]

@@nekotorin nooooo. Humanity asking for Death is Erebus.

[@rhozion]

Toudou, Naoya is Underrated.

[@kingdomheartsispeak4724]

I'll say

[@TheEmperorRaidou]

Can body (Except Tatsuya sadly) the other protags

[@bippythechippy882]

Aigis actually still has the wild card. Yu mentions it in a victory quote that it feels weird to go up against a fellow wild card and she still has the Fool Arcana.

[@MistermistTheOne]

You also forgot to credit Door-Kun for using his fucking willpower to keep Erebus, who is knocking on one side of his door. From meeting Nyx is knocking on the other side, so he has two "gods" knocking on him yet through his Universe Arcana is able to keep them at bay. Also, another great video. Can't wait to see what's next.

[@andresarancio6696]

Humanity: We wanna dieeeeee. Door-kun: Shut up Death: Did someone call me? Door-kun: Go back to sleep. My god, MC-kun is the ultimate form of Morgana

[@unnamed_protagonist]

he only had to stop erebus. nyx was putting up no fight cause she doesn't care whether she kills everyone or not, she only do it if erebus tells her to, which thanks to door kun he can't. he still willpowered his way to surviving against nyx long enough to lock her in her room.

[@bashthedash4177]

I love your content so much, keep going bros ❤️

[@Fitherfith]

love u too

[@JR384]

From what I remember, it was stated somewhere that the Universe Arcana could theoretically give Minato/Makoto (whichever name you prefer) a free-reset on the entire Universe. Like if for instance he had somehow failed to keep Erebus away from Nyx in The Answer, and regained consciousness before likely being killed by Erebus, he could shoot himself with his Evoker and blow the Universe back to 0.

[@EDK-San51912]

Oh cool narly was able destroy the universe and all of reality as well and tatsuya the dude who beat narly who’s universal if not low 4d can stop time as well

[@papapalps2415]

​@@EDK-San51912 No, and no.

[@papapalps2415]

"It was, like, uh, stared, um, somewhere, guys. Totes legit. Scours honor!" Compelling stuff, truly.

[@jasonwu1847]

I would say Star Eater Nyx (Read Persona 3 Club book which has the lore of Persona and is only released in Japan) is the strongest existence of Persona

[@kazeace853]

jason wu i really think NYX is the most powerful being here since Philemon and Nyarloteph are born/made from human conscious and NYX can wipe that instantly is just boom. Plus she's literally unkillable no matter what, no bullshitting or friendship power can kill her.

[@lazilycloud]

KazeAce she can be killed

[@lazilycloud]

KazeAce if she kill everyone she dies too

[@RRM25100]

Being stuck in a cage doesn't make you the strongest, it's the cage itself (Makoto).

[@kazeace853]

reborn 12 nope, she's an OMNIPOTENT being and isn't born or relying on anything Ryoji and Igor + the persona lore and the real life lore that she was the personification of shadows and appeared before the "creation" of earth and life. Igor said so that having the power to seal her is impossible that showing nothing is a miracle to him.

[@kmaple9]

Teddie should be placed higher because he's got the ability to create any object, including literal magical items. He can make the fog-cutting glasses, yea, but he has been shown in Arena to be able to make explosives, toys, and self-animated automatons with help from his persona. Theoretically, Mitsuru could go up to him, show him a plume of dusk, and say "Aight listen you can smash if you make more of this" and within the hour they'd have a pile of plumes of dusks.

[@ElDrHouse2010]

P3 Protagonist Universe card can do whatever he wants. even create a new everything. also brought to him by the power of friendship so there it is.

[@Wildcat12]

19:45 “Anything that happens in the Velvet Room happens for a reason.” If the Velvet Room wasn’t supposed to go into Yaldaboath’s control, Igor and co would’ve been able to successfully defend it. Since they weren’t, it can be assumed it was important and had to happen, thus removing any reason for Philemon to involve himself.

[@rokka7188]

Aren''t Philemon, and Nyarlatothep pretty much the most powerful beings compared to anybody else (Besides friendship), since they give the power of Personas/Shadows, and are pretty much the creators of Shadows and Persona's in a physical form. They are the kings/supreme beings of Collective Unconscious, which is more powerful than time, death, etc. Itself. Though they don't have the same feelings as humans, as they base their strong belief in either humanity's will to work together, or destroy everything, which is also the reason why Philemon doesn't really bother to mess with human manners, unless it has something to do with Nyarlatothep, to help them a little. Even if it meant for his Velvet Room to be taken, he wouldn't care.

[@kazeace853]

GamerScrewingAround ugh no nobody/not a lot of people think they are because they're not. They're just made from the human's collective unconscious and shadows and personas are the same being that are just categorized by their nature and they all came from NYX.

[@jalencunningham2012]

Why is Sho Minazuki in D tier? When he beats most of the P3 Cast and some of the P4 cast in fights (I only played through the P4 version of the story so maybe it’s different on the other version in terms of his true strength). I know he should be a tier behind Yu considering he beats him at full power but to say he loses to base persona 3/4/5 characters seems off to me.

[@misbits0070]

Nah this video lack of research

[@berserkrequiem1991]

Dude Sho gets the fucking wild card at the end of Arena Ultimax, easily S Tier.

[@jalencunningham2012]

Berserk Requiem considering he beats Aigis in the P4 side and she’s in S tier, yea he should be there 👌🏾

[@columbina5839]

they mentioned that their placement of him was pre-persona. dont know why they decided to rank that point in time for him instead of at the end, but thats why

[@lordkardok666]

From what I understand, and from an Atlus interview, Philemon lost a lot of his power after Persona 2, which is why he hasn't made a physical appearance since (other than as the blue butterfly). So it's likely the reason he didn't do anything against Yaldabaoth was because he doesn't have the power to fight him. However, with a new version of Persona 5 on the horizon, maybe they could better clarify that information, if they intend on including Philemon at all.

[@kmaple9]

Can you do a Persona Dad tier list? (Sojiro, Dojima, Mr. Kirijo, Bar Monk from P3, etc.)

[@alphathehedgehogx96]

I want to clarify: Aigis does have the Wild Card still in Arena It's not something you just lose This is a key in Elizabeth's story *in* Arena If you're going to go into other details Elizabeth could earn her own spot separate from the Velvet Room Attendants As she achieves the Wild Card in her story of Arena And then Sho Minazuki himself is a Wild Card as of the True Ending of Ultimax, his presence and power is already enough to overwhelm most of the Shadow Operatives and Investigation Team, even without his Persona When you actually throw Tsukiyomi into the mix, his power increases considerably

[@daemon7013]

I didn't feel these 20 minutes go by, that's impressive

[@oscarelefarroyo4887]

It's only a matter of time till Fither rises again

[@rattango9819]

Makoto can combine spells between two personas at once

[@iwanttosleep4506]

This is so old but... 1. Nyx is the concept of death and can not die 2. Yaldabaoth only took over due to a surprise attack 3. Makoto can do fusion spells on his own 4. Makoto faces off Elizabeth ALONE compared to Ren and Yu 5. Tatsuya beat both Philemon and Nyarlathotep 6. Makoto housed Death (or the avatar of death) as a 5 or 6 year old child and lived.

[@egg99362ofthem]

What do you mean compared to ren pretty sure he faced of his own velvet room siblings alone if not then the gang would still remember them and they don't

[@egg99362ofthem]

I didn't mention yu cause i didn't play p4

[@iwanttosleep4506]

@@egg99362ofthem In P5 you have the option of bringing along members or doing it solo. P3 however doesn't give you that choice. If you do bring members, Elizabeth just ones shots everyone. You also can't bring certain items in P3 because Elizabeth will once more one shot you. You can't bring in personas with more than one Null, Repel, or Absorb. Any accessory that nullifies physical or magic isn't allowed. You can not use the fusion spell Armageddon. If you are revived automatically by an item, Pesona skill or accessory, Elizabeth with continue to one shot you. Basically Elizabeth is strictly one on one with no special items, accessories, or overpowered Personas.

[@papapalps2415]

​@@iwanttosleep4506 ​ "Nyx is the concept of death and cannot die..." No, she isn't. The Club Book makes that very clear, and there's nothing to truly back this up in game either. "Yaldabaoth only took over due to a surprise attack..." And your proof of this is...? "Makoto can do fusion spells on his own..." And...? "Makoto faces off against Elizabeth ALONE..." The fact drooling fanboy's are legitimately incapable of seeing the logical contradiction in this argument (its a legitimate one on one, but...she instantly one shots you and everybody else if you break the obvious game mechanic rules? Are you fucking brain damaged?) is simply endlessly hilarious to me. "Tatsuya beat both Philemon and Nyarlathotep..." No, he didn't. Not solo, at any rate. "Makoto housed Death..." Thats...neat, I guess?

[@AijeAstralos]

This is pretty good, I might argue that, with the blue butterfly being so prominent in 5 while it's not been particularly so in the last two games, it's possible that Philemon was playing the strings from the background all along. I would agree that Yaldabaoth would likely be higher, however, since we know that prior to the Devil Summoner series the Persona games played out relatively similar to the SMT series, making him at the VERY least a representation of the Demiurge, if not literally BEING him, and would argue that depending on what we figure out about whether Joker keeps Satanael after the resolution of Persona 5, you could make a case that he belongs on a similar tier and the summonable version is only limited for balance purposes due to his ability to nonchalantly slaughter a manifestation of the Creator, and his status as THE embodiment of free will and chaos in the universe, meaning that ultimately, the Collective Will of Mankind that POWERS the Power of Friendship comes from him in the first place.

[@DANIXBD]

best video you ever made

[@RSblader8]

When I first saw Persona 3 users at C, I was like how the hell is Makoto there he literally sacrificed himself and none of the other MCs did that. But then I saw him in SSS tier ^_^.

[@wildblue2240]

Yosuke beats Yu in a 1 on 1 with base level jiriya in the persona 4 arena manga. He's actually the main character of p4a and his story is confirmed to be canon for the first arena. Beating Yu one on one, with a single persona is more than impressive and deserving of at least A rank.

[@ExcelonTheFourthAvalonHeirs]

That's why Persona canon is kinda confusing. Yosuke

[@wildblue2240]

@@ExcelonTheFourthAvalonHeirs no doubt, I don't envy having to make this tier list, there's alot of contradictions and conversations to be had. It'd be great if atlas did it for us.

[@berserkrequiem1991]

Bruh where are you getting this info from, Yosuke’s story was never confirmed to be canon.

[@berserkrequiem1991]

Oh you’re talking about the manga lol. The manga and game timelines are not the same, that’s always been the case with persona. Which is why they keep changing the protagonists names (and in some cases personality).

[@Marek.Wisniewski]

Great video, thank You for it Sir

[@AnimeMiner57]

I know a comment like this already exists but I want to repeat it to hammer in the point Please make a SMT series power tier, including all games (except Persona because obviously this video)

[@ericclass8441]

Didn't Philemon break his deal Nyar in Persona 2 Innocent Sin with what he did for Tatsuya and was forced to no longer be able to interfere with the events that goes on in the future?

[@catsarecute7447]

persona 1 protag can defeat nyx without turning into a door, yet has a lower power level than the guy that turns into a door to defeat nyx

[@jorjorbanks8876]

Those are two different nyxs I think

[@gaspastrike]

Jor Jor Banks Yeah, the Izanami in P2 and the Izanami in P4 aren’t the same thing. Same with others like Thanatos

[@catsarecute7447]

guys, this is a joke, please dont attack me ;-;

[@TheEmperorRaidou]

I mean he can beat Nyx tho lol

[@PunkThrashMetal]

One thing that bolsters your akechi argument is that it's implied he's been active way longer than anyone in the phantom thieves. So he has years of training his persona skills as well as his other power.

[@ghostmelon4557]

This video is amazing Flair and Fither. XD wowzo

[@wackywoohoopizzaman0173]

Margaret beats Elizabeth, Elizabeth beats everyone in p3 and yu beats margaret so how does this tier chart make any sense after yu whooped everyone's ass in arena and arena ultimax

[@neptuneplaneptune3367]

Simple. Plot Bullet.

[@fork-man]

Its wonky because each velvet attended is stated to be a wall that the wild card user must leap over to battle the final boss p3 boss might to be stronger then the final boss of p4 this means Elizabeth has to be stronger then Margaret

[@Rettomus]

Yu and IT/Wild Card Friendship powers >= Margaret > Elizabeth > Yu alone (even with The World). In P4 Arena, both Yu's and Elizabeth's paths have him fight her and lose when he's alone, and he only gains traction against her when the IT intervenes. Liz also refers to her fight with the P3MC in her Arena quotes, a fight you *had to* fight 1-v-1, suggesting the fight was canon. P3MC was probably at least even in strength with her before the final battle against Nyx and subsequent Universe Arcana, given how Elizabeth specifically wanted to fight someone stronger than her and thus had no reason to hold back.

[@berserkrequiem1991]

@@Rettomus Yu had just beaten like 7 persona users before his fight with Liz, including Aigis at her full power. Elizabeth explicitly mentions that she's surprised Yu was even able to fight at all by looking at how exhausted he was. Then again, after fighting Liz, proceeds to defeat Shadow Labrys in a world she has some degree of control over. A week later then proceeds to go toe to toe with Hi-No-Kagutsuchi, a god who is also explicitly stated to be even more powerful than Izanami-No-Mikoto (AKA Marie) without using Izanagi-No-Okami (Adachi only helped deal the finishing blow after he woke up). But just don't forget the fact that Yu, in his base state, matched a literal god in combat, it may be plot bullshit at it's finest but let that sink in for a second.

[@Rettomus]

​@@berserkrequiem1991 Yu has some really good feats but he was still no match against Elizabeth alone. Elizabeth could casually defeat Erebus at the start of P4 Arena, a god-like-being similar to Hi-No-Kagutsuchi. The last time Erebus was killed in The Answer it took the entire SEES (sans P3MC and Shinjiro), lead by Aigis, to win. I'm not sure if you disagreed with something I wrote. Being weaker than Elizabeth (who can casually slay many of the Persona gods herself) isn't exactly shameful.

[@rubenvazques5494]

Yaldabaot is speculated to be a fragment of nyarlothotep, and is speculated that Philemon fragmented himself to create the velvet room attendants

[@nekotorin]

ruben vazques Philemon and Nyarlathotep are the two extremes of the side of humanity hence why Nyx, Izanami, and Yaldabaoth are under Nyarly. And that is also my theory, the attendants themselves are parts of Philemon.

[@chestertamayo1894]

@@nekotorin not Nyx. Its Erebus thats under Nyarly.

[@nekotorin]

@@chestertamayo1894 The reason the P3 cast even knew about the Fall is because of the shadow experiments that the Kirijo group and Nanjo group did 10 years before P3. And since the new P2 Tatsuya route was released on the PSP remake of P2EP, it was explained how demons (which came from the collective unconscious) were slowly transformed into shadows. Nyarlathotep represents all the negative side of humanity from the collective unconscious. Nyx him/herself is the being that was born from the collective unconscious of mankind (specifically human's yearn for death). There are no actual gods or goddesses in the Persona universe, only beings that managed to become self aware due to humanity's ever so evolving intricacies and the human psyche. Doesnt surprise me though because the series itself revolves around the philosophy of Jung.

[@chestertamayo1894]

@@nekotorin no. *Erebus* is the entity from Humanity yearning for death. His entire existence and purpose was to call Nyx, known in P3 as the Star Eater and wake her up. Shadows are the fragmented psyche of Nyx and Nyarlathotep has the ability to turn those fragmented psyche to the shadows you fight in the Persona series(same with Philemon with the Personas). The Fall is the event where Nyx completely wakes up, the result of which will erase the Collective Unconscious and cause world wide apathy syndrome which is the result of Nyx's fragmented Psyche returning back to Nyx.

[@TheEmperorRaidou]

@@equinox8698 But Nyx in P1 and P2 is stronger than P3 Nyx so it matters not

[@antediluvianspy1708]

Haha I love this. Subbed.

[@Garfield.]

Now this is a weird request since you guys haven’t talked about this series in years but maybe you guys could do a tier list for the most powerful jjba main characters and main villains

[@paeratatahuriorangi498]

“It took all of the phantom thieves to defeat him” Am I the only one who took off all of the party members and fight the dude (had to do em like Goku Vs Vegeta you know)

[@masterchiefpettyofficerspa3646]

To be honest you can easily bring up the argument that the Phantom Thieves weren't at 100% percent when fighting Akechi because they literally had to fight him after they just got done beating 5 bosses including a Yakuza member. I'd say they (especially Joker) were at 60% of their fighting abilities when Akechi showed up.

[@haha5450]

@@masterchiefpettyofficerspa3646 nope

[@masterchiefpettyofficerspa3646]

@@haha5450 Why?

[@xandermcdonald8543]

I mean... even if you fought Akechi alone as Joker you still have the benefit of Futaba and the use of the velvet room. I’d say that outside of combat stuff, Akechi vs Joker, Akechi wins until Joker unlocks Satanael, which is with the help of the masses. Really, the only way that Joker wins is with the help of others, which is the whole moral of the story.

[@marcogarcia7944]

You can null everything he does with rangda it kinda kills the fight

[@_r._7513]

6:09 Minato/Makoto was the original chad, change my mind.

[@Crok425]

Funny thing about Tatsuya is that not only he can stop time but his japanese voice actor is the same as Dio Brando... crazy, huh? :D. Also, Tatsuya can apparently use his Persona abilities without summoning them like he did in his scenario in the remake of EP. *Kagutsuchi.

[@NukeDaHippies]

You know the list isn't very well thought out when Yu Narukami is UNDER Izunami

[@cursemaster7542]

Factual, we know Marie is stronger than Izanami because Izanami is only a portion of Marie’s power, which she then absorbs after becoming Izanami-No-Mikoto, then we also know Hi-No-Kagutsuchi is considerably more powerful than Marie as not only is it explicitly shown but she herself states that. Then we also see Yu overpower Hi-No-Kagutsuchi in 1 on 1 combat which is why he was about to level the skyscraper due to his inability to defeat *Yu with Izanagi only.* Meaning Yu should be at the very minimum a tier higher than him. Yet instead Fither put him under not only Aegis but Shadow Labrys, not one but *two* people he CANONICALLY defeated in the main storyline at their full power. And don’t even get me started on how dirty they did Tatsuya. I am convinced this tier list is an elaborate troll.

[@ZTr00p3r]

True

[@ZTr00p3r]

@@cursemaster7542 ikr

[@MrShadic999]

Wouldn' P3MC be above Philemon and Nyandartelp, they each represent half of the unconcious, and Nyx (the real Nyx, not Nyx's avatar in the tierlist) is the origin/source of the unconcious and concious of all living things, P3MC (when he got the universe arcana) holded the power of the entire concious and unconciousness which is why he was able to exist in the same plane of existance as Nyx's true form, an egg which represents a status of being alive and not alive, dead as in not living but not dead since death can't die.

[@sendhelp6349]

I'd assume that Spoiler von Royal is somewhere around SSSS tier because Yabba Dabba Doo's powers transferred over to him

[@gaspastrike]

Yeah, SvR is pretty nuts

[@TheBrutalSax]

I’d probably put him in a tier or 2 below Yaldy cause at the end of the day, he is just a human with a god tier power, and probably isn’t capable of overthrowing Igor and Philemon

[@thatoneguy5343]

@@TheBrutalSax Actually... In the deadline ending for third semester, it’s implied that HE took over the Velvet Room due to the blue butterfly disappearing when it tried to contact Joker. (Being vague for people reading these replies who haven’t played/finished Royal.)

[@AsbelLhant100]

From what I remember Aigis is listed as a Wild Card user (The Fool) in Persona 4 Arena & Ultimax. And I still think Nyx should be higher up in the rankings than she is.

[@thelegion2184]

another day. another great dumb fun video. keep it up