Flat Tappets, New Lifters and a New Book : Billy Godbold - Camshaft Engineer Podcast Interview

[@maikgoldmann5691]

Thank you both for this nice interview, it was a pleasure to listen to you guys. Billy's description how the book was written acually made me curious what he had written in the earlier versions. Maybe he will publish that sometime 😊

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

Knowing Billy, it could have been anything! Might not have been fit for consumption. 😂 He’s a brilliant engineer. Glad you liked the interview!

[@davenorman8251]

I ordered a copy Billy's book recently I can't wait to read it. Shane Pulido spoke briefly about the testing on the dlc lifters earlier this year..interesting stuff.

[@BPattB]

I did watch some of this on the way to and from work. This book is probably exactly what I need.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

The book is extremely technical and will take a while to go though it. Understanding it completely might take a few years though…. It really is like a very high level engineering test book but for folks who really want to understand the science behind valvetrains. Great stuff!

[@Scarlet_1971_cuda]

This was great!! Thank you.

[@jimmy_olds]

I bought the 812D lifters a week ago and am about to slam the motor together. I’ll let you know how it goes. Great interview

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

I would still follow the same procedure. Lower the spring pressures. Use a good formulated break in oil, not one you mix yourself. Hopefully your machinist measured your lifter bores and verified alignment.

[@jimmy_olds]

@@MuscleCarSolutions I’m following Comp’s directions to a T. In their directions, there was no mention of lifter bore alignment. But I know what you’re saying, that was one of Billy’s points of cam failures. The cam that came out wasn’t wiped so hopefully the core shift wasn’t excessive

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

@@jimmy_olds a good machinist would have checked it, especially knowing it’s going to be a flat tappet engine. So if they mentioned nothing, hopefully it’s all good!

[@jimmy_olds]

@@MuscleCarSolutions broke the cam in yesterday. Alls well

[@dalelockett2619]

Thank you both for doing this! I just bought the book myself..........gonna be a tremendous asset to help me w\ tuning my engine well.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

I’ve read the entire book once and keep going back to some chapters to reread. It’s an invaluable resource from the man himself!

[@dalelockett2619]

@@MuscleCarSolutions If you ever get in contact w\ Billy again, please ask him for his thoughts on Ford Modular 4.6L 3V's w\ VCT using non-OEM camshafts w\ the CMCV's still in use.........wondering if these CMCV's will still provide\augment usable low load, low RPM intake airmass velocity improvements w\ non-OEM camshafts to help w\ engine TQ output in this region. I know the going recommendation "outside" is to remove these CMCV's............from modeling the OEM Ford cam's .006" lift adv dur IVO, IVC, EVO & EVC timing points I can see where these would be needed once the OEM cam's cam timings are retarded away from VCT 0*.........am curious to know if these CMCV's are a good thing to also use using non-OEM camshafts since I've seen\heard of no viable info on this...........did Billy\Comp Cams use the Ford Modular 3V CMCV's along w\ VCT in their camshaft design\modeling\testing or were these removed? This IMHO is good info for folks to know especially if high load, high RPM competitive racing isn't a priority thus primarily street usage................ I removed mine following the "crowd mentality" but now am wondering if this was really the right move to have done when selecting\using a non-OEM camshaft for this engine package........ Billy didn't mention anything on this in his book thus I thought I'd mention this here in hopes of getting a definitive answer to this question from the 1 IMHO who can give a good creditable answer to this. I've seen where Ford has revised this CMCV design in the Ford Modular 4.6L 3V OEM replacement intake manifolds vs the production MY versions closer to the design being used in the Coyote engines..........so before I fork out the money to get 1 (while they're still available from Ford), I'd like a good answer beforehand to justify the expense. I agree, this book is AWESOME! Especially Chapter 8: Moving Valve Events (I tune my own Ford Modular 4.6L 3V engine).............🤘 Appreciate any info given! 👍👊

[@dalelockett2619]

@@MuscleCarSolutions If you could since you have contact access to Billy, could you ask him to verify w\ the Ford Modular 4.6L 3V V8, if all their full VCT-compliant, NSR camshaft grinds are designed around using the CMCV's to augment their low RPM transient throttle TQ output when they design\grind them for improved mid-range & top end RPM performance? I would like to know this as if this is true, then a LOT of folks are unknowingly giving up usable low end TQ during transient throttle conditions due to the common advent of folks\tuners stating to remove these CMCV's when using an aftermarket camshaft grind to improve airflow & bolstering it w\ the advent of "reducing maintenance" by the removal of these. From reading Billy's new book, I'm now understanding some of this more...........I can now better understand why 1 would consider to remove these CMCV's when using the camshaft grinds that require phaser limiters\lockouts (limiting VCT max cam retard to 20* or less--more aligned w\ serious street to racing applications and\or FI use) but when using these NSR\full VCT-compliant camshaft grinds--especially in NA configuration--it seems to me now that removing these CMCV's w\ these type cams is more & more a mistake, especially if the usage is primarily street usage w\ occasional high RPM part throttle\WOT usage. I know that Billy can answer this--for me at least--w\ a high degree of creditability thus I would highly appreciate the info. Billy doesn't touch on this in his book thus why I'm putting this here in hopes of getting this question answered.

[@pacbrian3809]

for sure i will use the new lifters when i go together in a few months with my 383. good to hear about them

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

Good choice!

[@patrickm.8425]

I can definitely see how lifter bore alignment could cause problems, especially as old and used up as the 1st gen engine blocks are today. I'm happy to hear though, that he agrees with me on the metallurgy problem! Chinese junk = Chinese junk! Danial over at Powell Machine Inc, has done many videos and research on this camshaft and lifter phenomenon, and it's equally crap machining on camshaft lobes as well as lifters, and coming from some pretty major camshaft companies too! I currently only use Isky cams and lifters, and so far they are working out nicely for me. I'm not saying there aren't any other good cam companies, just going with my experience. I still have a couple Comp camshafts I haven't used yet from the early 90's! lol

[@shadvan9494]

Great interview so far. To bad Harold Brockshire from UltraDyne is not around anymore. i would lover to here his take on this. I ran Ultradyne cams until they went belly up then switched to crower. but i have ran Crane and Comp in the past as well. had an Ultradyne cam in an L88, if i remember right it was 268/275@.050, just slightly bigger than the L88 cam. all stuffed in a Hondo SK flat bottom drag boat. I never lost a race with that boat. to this day it was the most terrifying thing i have ever driven. I like comp but I think their spring recommendations are a little light for their hydraulic roller cams. they always seem to float before making the cam engine makes peak power. I usually try to go one step stiffer in spring that Comp Recommends in order to solve the valve float issues. (I am running Big Block Chevys which are notorious for valve float at high RPM)

[@4speed3pedals]

I just ordered the book from Amazon. Thanks for posting this interview. I wonder if Comp Cams purchased the Winonal Van Norman valve lifter grinder for putting the crown on the lifter face?

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

Comp does not grind lifters. Practically no cam manufacturer does. They purchase them from the tier 1 OE suppliers that make them.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

I’ll clarify that. No one makes flat tappet lifters. Comp makes most of their hydraulic and solid roller lifters in their Michigan facility.

[@brianfrancis2862]

i just put one en flat tapped comp cam 468 in my 390 fe

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

Even more critical on that heavy valvetrain to get the right spring pressures. Make sure your machinist checked the lifter bores and let’s you know the exact tolerance on each. Low break in rpm with that engine. Use a formulated break in oil, don’t mix one yourself.

[@timbof1016]

I just bought some DLC lifters from Comp. I got an old muther thumper cam “still new” around 480 lift with some worked 882 heads just sitting around. So I’m gonna do a cam and head swap on an older 350 I have in my C10. Comp is still preaching on spring pressures on and off seat. It starts to worry me to the point that I don’t even wanna do it, and just return everything. My local machine shop says they sell “Z28” springs and that it holds up to 500 lift and that will be fine for what I’m doing but Comp starts in on all the on and off seat pressures makes cringe up. BTW nice video and I might get my library to buy this book.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

I did a whole series on flat tappet cam failures. Why it happens and the cure. The DLC lifters are a real game changer, but there are still other factors you must address or it doesn’t matter how good the lifter is. Spring pressures like you mentioned are a BIG part of that. Lifter to bore tolerances that everyone completely ignores is a huge factor. Oil, correct break in RPM for the engine type….all extremely critical. Check out that series if you want more details and yes, it’s a daunting task no doubt. But people will continue to throw the whole thing together and not address any of the critical parts to the break in and then blame everyone else for the failure.

[@timbof1016]

@@MuscleCarSolutions I’ve watched them all, and that’s what made me spend the extra $125 on the DLC lifters. I’m also eyeballing those edelbrock 4150 carbs lol. Let me get this cam in this old motor squared away first without failure and I’ll continue. The last failure ruined a brand new engine and I walked away from it. Thank you for sharing your knowledge on the subjects.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

@@timbof1016 take all those things into account and your chances of survival and long term success goes up significantly. Cut a single corner and man does it drop off quick. Best of luck with it!

[@timbof1016]

@@MuscleCarSolutions I just read a thread that stated during Comp’s testing, they couldn’t even force a failure. In that same thread a guy used full spring pressure 305lbs “over the nose” and he had a successful breakin

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

@@timbof1016 I’ve seen first hand some of the things they did to try and kill them. That coating is extremely impressive. But if I were building a flat tappet engine, I’d still follow all the other things needed to ensure survival. It’s a great product, but it’s not magic.

[@pipcop]

I just watched this interview again and locked away more information between my ears. I am also waiting for the DLC lifters for the small block FORD, but tech support at COMP cams keep saying "not yet". Please ?? give them a part number and a price tag ??

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

The amount of testing they do to make sure it’s right is staggering. They’re coming!

[@karlsracing8422]

Need these for the 904 Mopar lifter.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

They’re coming. I think they said they’re almost done with the small ford ones but the mopar lifters will be soon.

[@gashgoblin44]

@Muscle Car Solutions it would be great to see those dlc lifters in the small block ford's. I had watched your last video and was kind of irritated that they had em for chevys but not ford, but I understand why they did as I am about the only ford guy in my area. Everyone who wants me to work on their engines or build them one is small block chevy 99% of the time.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

@@gashgoblin44 it’s coming. The volume engines will always get the attention first.

[@tizkool]

i understand your roller lifter theory even Billy understands all of us of hot rodders cant afford them. We still need flat tappet lifters and cams hopefully DLC is the answer. you almost seemed to get defensive when Billy suggested DLC might go further than a roller

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

You’re reading too far into it. Billy and I are good friends, and he was the one who created this solution. So far, I’ve yet to hear an negative word about how they have performed. Pretty remarkable the cost is so inexpensive.

[@thereluctantgearhead4544]

Would be nice if they solved the shitty flat tappet lifter situation, won't make much difference if the improved flat tappet lifters cost more than rollers. Kinda defeats the purpose. I'm just gonna stick with roller cams myself. The failure rate of flat tappet setups should be their main priority. I've been building engines for 40+yrs, never seen the amount of cams going flat as I have in the last decade. Something obviously changed.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

Did you….listen to this podcast? Like at all?

[@thereluctantgearhead4544]

I'm listening to it now.

[@thereluctantgearhead4544]

I just made a comment that was on my mind.

[@thereluctantgearhead4544]

So far I'm hearing him talk about everything but the elephant in the room.

[@thereluctantgearhead4544]

48 minutes in he's addressing the flat tappet cam failures. Those DLC lifters sound like a good thing. Do you know what the actual retail is on a set? At this moment anyway, I'm sure they'll cost more next month. Seems to be the trend lately.

[@jimdouglasgregory]

Hope this makes it to kindle or pdf

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

I’m sure it will to kindle. In a pdf? Can’t imagine they would.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

Total guess on my part though. Are any of the Car Tech books on kindle? If they are I can see this one might.

[@trolllibtards2604]

He says the flat tappet lifters that fail come from overseas, WRONG! They are coming from MEXICO! He also said comp never used foreign flat tappet lifters, if you believe that, then I have a ski resort I would like to sell you located in the outback. Jeep used flat tappet camshafts in their straight 6 engines until the early 2000’s, yet you did not need to run any special oil in them and those engines lasted over 200,000 miles. Just be honest, Comp and others cut corners at the expense of the customer.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

Well Mr Godbold worked for Comp for 30 years. I’m inclined to believe him over an internet troll.

[@trolllibtards2604]

Stop being lazy, and do your research. (1) FACT- Jeep used flat tappet cams until the early 2000’s with no massive cam failures using standard oil. (2) FACT- Most flat tappet lifters that are sold in the USA are coming out of Mexico. Do the research, BUM!

[@TomSmith-cv8hk]

I guess the DLC isn't going to make up for poor lifter bore alignment.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

Unfortunately it won’t. That’s a big big part of why these failures are occurring. No one ever knows what their bore to lifter tolerances are. They just want to blame everyone else for the failure.

[@VinoRatRodbuilds]

Well a basic math guy that got a c grade, this is algebra 2 me . I did enjoy listening to this show. SO MUNCH 2 NO ! 🥴

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

Right there with ya! Math wasn’t my strong suit. Had to force myself to learn and apply it!

[@renchjeep]

This may sound stupid, but why not have DLC coated flat tappet cams, or at least lobes? Would it be prohibitively expensive?

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

I’m not sure the coating adheres to cast iron. And having it on multiple surfaces doesn’t provide more protection.

[@renchjeep]

@@MuscleCarSolutions Gotcha. Thanks!

[@pontiac411]

If Comp was still producing the same quality lifter they produced for decades then why would they need to change to DLC?

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

It’s not the lifter that’s the issue. The last three videos in this cam failure series provide a lot of insight into the problem that no manufacturer can prevent.

[@pontiac411]

@@MuscleCarSolutions I have never lost a lobe but I still do things more old school, I just find it a red flag when a company tells you they still mnf the same quality part but then change what they are doing.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

@@pontiac411 comp doesn’t make lifters. They’re all bought from one of two US vendors. Kind of hard to say a company willing to make the investment to try to find a good solution, a “red flag”. No one else is addressing it. Maybe lack to effort is a bigger red flag?

[@pontiac411]

@@MuscleCarSolutions Yes, why would a company as big as Comp not make the effort to build lifters in house? Smaller cam company's have been able to selectively source lifters for their dirt track customers with out failure. Personally I think the wrong break in oil (aditives in detergent oil that counter the additive package) and too much spring pressure play a big roll in this problem.

[@MeLoNHeAd00]

Flat tappets get a bad rep. In most cases its human error ! A lot of people dont check every lifter fit or properly torque things or even lubricate the engine before start up. Melling states (my favorite cam company , i havmt had many issues with them.) Flat tqppet bring engine up to 1800rpm for 20 minutes . Slowly bring down to idle and then drain oil. After that i drain the oil again after 500km and then 1000 after that. Every time i do an oil chamge i put in the zinc additive. 90% of people think after break in you dont need it.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

Break in rpm will vary with the engine. Can’t follow a single rpm for all engines. It’s asking for failure. We talked at length in the interview with Driven Racing Oil why using an additive is not the best choice. It won’t combine until it’s at the right temp that the zinc needs to adhere to the base oil molecules and if you use a detergent oil, it’s going to fight the zinc additive. Use a formulated break in oil. We’re going to cover lifter bore wear and shift extensively in a future video.

[@MeLoNHeAd00]

​@@MuscleCarSolutions I always use break in . My mild 22203 Melling pamphlet said with this cam 1800-1850 Rpm.

[@matthewrich7673]

No one talked lobe taper 😂

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

I could have had him on for a five hour interview and I don’t know that we could have covered it. I covered taper and crown heavily in my flat tappet cam series. Maybe we’ll see if Billy will come back for a little conversation specifically on flat tappets.

[@matthewrich7673]

@@MuscleCarSolutions sounds good, That's part of the issue with comp cams that I've measured I feel like that he didn't address that issue and talked about lifters. It's always easier to blame products that the company doesn't make. The block and and lifter bores are definitely important but so is lobe taper and usually compcams don't have enough.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

@@matthewrich7673 I find that to be incorrect. All of comps cam and lifters follow the preferred OE spec of 0.0015”. That’s more that enough to facilitate rotation. The problem is as an engine goes through its life, the bores wear. No one checks that tolerance. I just did a lifter video and measured crown on a number of common lifters. Some were way out. Not the comps though.

[@matthewrich7673]

@@MuscleCarSolutions I never said comp sells bad lifters they source usa made companies there are definitely crappy lifters out there. What I'm talking about is there cams off the shelf variations some have under .001 some in the tenths. If they do a custom that actually gets ground by them is a different story I believe there of better quality. I guess everyone can have different experiences. Yes lifter bores can be out of spec two tight will cause more problems of no rotation than a tad loose. If a cam has .002 taper it can help compensate for a block that's a little out. We take out comp cams that other builders use and use primarily Howard's no issues. Isky is good as well, prices are getting ridiculous though.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

@matthewrich7673 never implied you said comp is junk. It’s amazing though how many want to blame the brand instead of actually figuring out what caused a failure. Anything over 0.0015 I consider out of spec on a flat tappet cam and lifter. But I also subscribe to the assumption that the OE had it correct. I’m 100% sure Billy does also.

[@direct998]

You couldn't pay me to run a flat tappet cam .

[@steelcitycaprice.899]

Wow late again 😏

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

You’ll just get stuck with the YT ads! 😆

[@steelcitycaprice.899]

@@MuscleCarSolutions I watched the video and Thourouly enjoyed the content. Thanks so much to you and Mr. Godbold for this session on cams and lifters I must try those dlc lifters because rollers aren't in the budget and after wipping out 2 lunati cams I stopped my build 3yrs ago but maybe with help from the book and those new to me lifter I'm going for round 3 in a few weeks 😂😂 Thanks again for your time and information you provided.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

@@steelcitycaprice.899 what engine are you working on?

[@steelcitycaprice.899]

@@MuscleCarSolutions well it's a sbc355, hyper pistons, VORTEC heads, rpm airgap 7501 intake. I've since purchased blueprints 8103 aluminium heads for this third time around.

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

@@steelcitycaprice.899 you’re good then. The DLC lifters will work well with the Lunati cam. Comp has made the Lunati product for the past 15 years or so. The taper and crown will match perfectly with the cam you choose and that lifter.

[@Schlipperschlopper]

All Chinese and Mexican and Bolivian flat tappet lifters suck....I only use NOS lifters I can find sealed and boxed at ebay

[@Mike-Olds-1]

Everything I have bought from comp cams for the last 3 years has been complete garbage

[@racer44x]

To bad Harold Brookshire of Ultradyne cams wasn’t still alive. That’s the interview I would like to here

[@roberthollinshead2325]

Harold did the extreme energy line for comp I believe. His old general kinetics and ultradyne cams made great power

[@butchking154]

can u run the stock push rod with this dlc lifter ?

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

I’m assuming you’re referring to length. Always use a length checker to make sure you end up with the correct length for the cam, heads, situation you’re building.