Flyout, Triebflügels, and the Curse of P-Factor

[@decofox6789]

Anyone have any input on where to upload these for people who don't care to use the Flyout discord? Realized I have no idea what service to actually use.

[@airsoftermatt22]

Stone is working on Steam Workshop integration but until then the discord is where to get planes, drop in and say hi, we dont bite

[@decofox6789]

@@airsoftermatt22 I'm there, and the files are posted there. That said I can definitely understand why you wouldn't want to be beholden to discord, so I try to provide alternatives.

[@airsoftermatt22]

@@decofox6789 Oh yeah lol I should read who posted the comment lmao, this is HotDog haha

[@decofox6789]

@@airsoftermatt22 lmao cheers

[@devon1on]

This is an AMAZING explanation of flight physics, not to mention a really fun story - absolutely superb editing and everything here too! I hope you make more videos and do random challenges like this, it's really really interesting!! Awesome job!!!

[@dayabloom9634]

This things gives me some bioshockish vibes. Crazy job man… I’m truly impressed

[@ianmanor6361]

What he's saying: Very well-thought-out aerospace theory What I hear: Funny spinny plane gone woosh

[@maxmachac9756]

Now THIS! Is what ive been looking for! I love it, more cursed Flyout on my plate please!

[@firewolfy_6]

Ive always found this sack of heaping garbage fascinating and you did an amazing job covering it, I found it quite amazing that such good quality content had such low sub or view numbers. so you good sir have earned my sub. (also you pronunciation is quite good, don't beat yourself up)

[@decofox6789]

Appreciated. This game is a total nerd-snipe for me, so I figured I ought to do something productive with it.

[@operatorrrr]

this is such a cool explanation, underrated channel

[@BasicallyPie]

This is really, REALLY good! I'd love to see more!

[@nadigaming1074]

HEY idk if your willing to go back to the model and try removing the wing tip engines and putting them closer to the fuse but i think alot of the issues come from the fact the engines are at the fastest moving point of the aircraft where they presumably achieve more leverage of the wing but because of that idea it causes major instability and yaw issues getting your point of thrust closer to your fuse should in theory fix this issue then give yourself a dual vtail rudder that looks like it a came off a x wing to give a more stable vertical in take off and a standard for what is up and down like a conventional airplane in forward flight

[@decofox6789]

You're partially right, but in this weird edge case you've got it backwards. Like I describe in the video, the problem isn't gyroscopic force or asymmetric thrust. It's p-factor. It's poorly explained in the video because at the time I hadn't encountered the proper terminology, but this aircraft achieves stability by mixing p-factor and gyroscopic forces. P-factor is extremely strong, and dealing with it actually requires gyroscopic forces to ALSO be strong. I actually had to increase the weight of the engines (same effect as moving them further away) to get it to fly. Basically, the aircraft is a giant gyroscope held rigid with gyroscopic forces, but is able to hover because p-factor serves as an erection mechanism for said giant gyroscope. For this to work, the gyro forces have to be able to overpower the p-factor. This is the video that got me to work out what I'm pretty sure is happening: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rZa3kJZ7jNR2eLM (Whole video is very interesting, but the important part to this is the erection mechanism) You can see this "erection mechanism" at work on my large bi-rotor design when you feather the rear rotor run at low throttle, then abruptly throttle up. You'll see the aircraft wobble in sharply narrowing circles and then snap upright, as the erection mechanism described in the linked video does.

[@nadigaming1074]

@@decofox6789 i appreciate your reply my guy thank you

[@mathis.docquier]

amazing video with good explanation and good creativity +1sub just awesome all around. and one thing for the airliner if it was a real design, wouldn't the rear rotor need to be a bit shorter to avoid the engines ingesting hot exhaust gas ?

[@decofox6789]

They definitely would. That would also have the convenient side effect of introducing a little bit of P-factor that might eliminate the need for the rear blade feather for landing without interfering much with forward flight. I'm definitely going to look into that on future designs.

[@gafrers]

Brilliant and fascinating. 👍👍 Always been fascinated with such concepts

[@Opusss]

Put gyroscopes spinning 90 degrees to the rotors in between the rotors

[@alexturnbackthearmy1907]

Extremely cursed design, lets go!

[@sea_kerman]

Wouldn't it be because as you tip over slightly (let's say nose-down) you begin sliding vehicle-down, so the blade on the right sees more airspeed and the blade on the left sees less, creating a yaw-left moment, which precession then rotates 90 degrees, resulting in a nose-up moment?

[@EggBastion]

Your adventures in flyout are perhaps as close as I ever dared mortals getting to the 'maths space' envisioned by Ian Banks. That's really cool. Or at least thats what I thought when _"I got brought here by ornithopters."_ This however... maybe cursed isn't stong enough a word.

[@specialagentdustyponcho1065]

... what about a nose-sitter so you can aim at your landing site more easily?

[@EggBastion]

my man!

[@sea_kerman]

Does flyout not model the airflow driven off the rotors, or is the blown airflow over the tail surfaces not enough to provide control in a hover? Because I'd think you'd have some control, like those single-rotor drones that get 'thrust vectoring" control from vanes behind the rotor.

[@decofox6789]

Tragically it does not. Wash isn't a thing at all at the moment, be it from rotating wings, conventional propellers, or jets. Hopefully that'll change for at least conventional propellers and jets. Simulating wash in a situation like this would be extremely difficult, from a software engineering perspective, so I don't expect to see it.

[@esesel7831]

Love it

[@DrWhom]

You pronounced it correctly - I before E is EE in German, E before I is AYE (mnemonic: say the second letter!) The underlying verb is treiben (E before I), cognate of our words drive and drift, which in the past tense and in verb-to-noun transition becomes trieb (I before E). For instance, Antrieb is an engineering term meaning drive as in the motor or engine component in a drive train. So Triebfluegel can be viewed as a contraction of angetriebene Fluegel, i.e. the wings are driven (by the ramjets).

[@rich_2739]

What would happen if you spun both rotors in the same direction for decent? Sweet, sweet double p factor correction?

[@decofox6789]

I did experiment with that, actually. The wing twists are opposite each other, though, so the rotors do not work as efficiently in that configuration, and the P-Factor was a bit overbearing.

[@safeish57]

"i dont have the patience for prop punk" LMAOO real

[@matthias1698]

Somehow I cannot wrap my head around it. P-Factor ist needed as an erection mechanism, I get that. But why only when descending? The plane of rotation is horizontal and while descending it stays horizontal. There ist no tilting of the axis/fuselage involved and hence there should not be any gyroscopic precession felt. The only time when P-Factor erection is needed is right after tilting the fuselage from a horizontal orientation up to a vertical orientation, i.e. when starting the landing phase. So to my understanding you should be able to unfeather the second rotor and let it help you when descending after the Gyro has been erected/gyroscopic precession has been quenched by the P-Factor. It should also be much safer to have the second rotor unfeathered in case you have to step on the gas.

[@matthias1698]

Or is it because of sudden gusts of wind from the sides that destabilize the descending phase and make an erection mechanism necessary? And when ascending you have the tail surfaces for stabilization?

[@matthias1698]

Didn't the Convair Pogo descend with both propellers unfeathered?

[@matthias1698]

So when tilting up, P-Factor and Gyroscopic Precession cancel each other out, but when tilting down they overlap and add up and increase yawing to the left?