Force Limit is just a Number...

[@Alorand]

Being over force limit is great for Drilling, since it gives you way more Army Professionalism. There is a big difference between +1% per year and +5% - this is enough to totally offset the -5% per year that Slacken Recruitment Standards imposes, letting you always have the +100% Manpower Recovery Speed buff.

[@safs3098]

Wait wait wait, are you telling me going above 100% force limit gives more than 1% a year professionalism?

[@koolkrafter5]

@@safs3098 Yes

[@gabri-immortale]

It is just infinite manpower but with some extra steps

[@Alorand]

@@gabri-immortale Just tried it, and you would be surprised how much the manpower doesn't feel infinite with this combo. I think that Slackening mostly offsets the extra attrition that you take on all of those regiments. You do feel like a Juggernaut when fighting wars though.

[@kurocchi5190]

@@Alorandyou would only take attrition if you are putting those units in shitty provinces or if you are death stacking them

[@REplayer001]

Dude has army on internship wages

[@jansatamme6521]

And his peasants on nordic taxes 💀

[@the_niss]

At that point your army should simply pay you

[@yazui.i.9368]

Wow this insight on Force Limit expanded my Eu4 Knowledge to another level. Seeing you with 500k troops in 1567, while I had 300k in 1624 as Colonial Portugal yesterday shows how broken this actually is, especially how almost anyone can utilize this strategy. Great Video, very informative and useful!

[@imoutoconnoisseur]

It never really occured to me for some reason, but thinking about it, force limit is actually an economic modifier; not military

[@TheMelnTeam]

I think the reason it's not usually stacked is that FL grows pretty fast too, and you wind up gated on manpower (or using mercs, which need a little extra setup). Another source of big cost savings is revolutionary target, though it's very late game. I used it again for the first time in a while, and had 4 million soldiers. Force limit was over 5 million though :p. That said, when I de-stated entire country for some TAG switching, it was like the above; still positive income while being 2k over FL. That's all just a nice bonus though, the real reason to go rev is for the CB. Edit: in very early EU 4, maintenance was not capped, and even back then this made negative maintenance possible until it got patched. The costs for over force limit even flipped to being a source of income!

[@sorsocksfake]

Agreed. Basically getting the setup in a realistic manner, and having the manpower to make good use of it, preferably without sacrificing major modifiers... we're probably talking a window of ~1550-1650 (after which ducats often are just a number). Different in MP though, that's where it would be most interesting to consider I reckon. In SP, 200 FL is fairly modest around ~1600 and that's more than enough for almost any purpose. I suppose you could go for an early mil hegemon this way though, that may be one of the more interesting applications?

[@avisdunrandom]

Having a big force limit : 🚫 Having free soldier : 👌

[@combrade-t]

I've gotten around to doing this, and you can get -100% war taxes cost as a 10 year modifier from the protestant war exhaustion church aspect (Wiki says its the one called War Sermons). Can refresh it every 10 years quite easily, just need to be getting enough church power, and since protestant is pretty strong anyway and lets you form Prussia, which also contributes a decent chunk of modifers, its kinda ideal.

[@midnightfox6378]

That is totally insanely broken.

[@govindsundar]

Heard in thestudents voice 😂

[@Canosoup]

Quantity has a quality all its own.

[@varus4827]

combining this with you ruthenia op cav strat and some more cav cost reduction would be insane, image half a million winged hussars

[@kylekelly1167]

My Yaun banner Cav only costs 3 cents. Tengri no secondary faith horde ideas Government reform thing no trading bonuses but soon I will get that too once I fix my trade. As forming Yaun shut down my china trade companies.

[@LibertyMonk]

Cav start out with a 2.5x multiplier compared to infantry, so you need to hit 60% Cav cost reduction just to break into infantry levels. But, you know, Cav has more pips and stuff until 1600s.

[@baurzhanaldabergenov2263]

I think that right now TheSudent has the best EU4 content in KZbin. I like FlorryWorry, he is definitely the best player in the world but in terms of interesting features and proper strategy explanations TheStudent is TheTeacher

[@gabri-immortale]

The student like to min max and play with math . Florryworry do not now how to read and why , he is happy enough to fuck the game raw in a submissive state starting with nothing

[@Scr4ndalf]

If you haven't seen his content already I'd recommend the playmaker, he did oirat full annex China in ten years recently that was hella impressive

[@baurzhanaldabergenov2263]

@Scr4ndalf I saw a lot of videos of Playmaker. He is good but not something exclusive. Definitely better than LudiHistoria, who is just doing very simple things, even me playing better. BudgetMonk is very good, I like him very much, but TheStudent right now is the best. He founds such a rare jems like FlorryWorry does, but can explain it in very simple manner, I am enjoying almost every time

[@laurinseidelmann6652]

Reminds me of the old days pre....1.25 I believe? where most land maintenance modifiers were 10%-god that was broken..

[@Al-Basha_]

Man this can break some MP games

[@jackyjamesjeffersonjamaljohnso]

people in mp already know this lmao

[@Al-Basha_]

oh I haven't seen anyone doing this but maybe they prefer quality over quantity@@jackyjamesjeffersonjamaljohnso

[@jansatamme6521]

A lot of the modifiers come from things u cant get in MP or are sub optimal, for example the idea set

[@QBrute_]

Very interesting! So by your calculation, the worst thing you can do is being just 1 unit above force limit. This basically doubles your army maintenance without any payoff.

[@thestudentYT]

Not really this only gets expensive after you are 100% over the FL

[@QBrute_]

@@thestudentYT Hm, then I must've misunderstood the calculation. I'm referring to FL = T + T * R and I thought the first "T" is the base cost just for being above force limit, due to the "weird Paradox maths" :D

[@StormTG315]

@@QBrute_ The calculation shown on screen is specifically referring to how the total cost of the army is calculated. As far as I understand, the base cost being added twice essentially just makes it so that your very first regiment over force limit will, at the bare minimum, cost twice as much as a normal "not over force limit" regiment plus a tiny amount for the "relative number over force limit", with that tiny amount being larger the smaller your force limit. For every regiment above your force limit after the first one, all of your previous regiments that are also over your force limit have their price increased by the new "relative number over force limit". For example, if you had a force limit of 10, and you recruited 11 infantry, your first 10 regiments would be normal cost, and your 11th regiment would cost 0.2 + (0.2*1.1) = 0.42. However, if you then recruited a 12th regiment, the 12th *and* the 11th regiment would both now cost 0.2 + (0.2*1.2) = 0.44. Hope that clears the whole thing up.

[@thestudentYT]

@@QBrute_ Yes but this modifier only adds up when I was at 3.2 over my FL... in my Tests for this Formula where I went over my FL only by 100% there it was exactly 2 Times the cost in total... But this cannot be a modifier like 3 times the penalty or something because it is exactly the base maintenance that is missing there and not 1.2 times the maintenance... so in terms of the penalty I am paying 4.2 times the Base cost as penalty even though I am only 3.2 over the FL... and as this cannot be ecplained this has to be "some weird PDX math"

[@LibertyMonk]

He keeps saying "three times over force limit", but that's wrong. He's actually 2.2x "over" his force limit, and 1x "under" his force limit. So he pays 2.2*2x his "base maintenance" as a penalty, or 4.4x. the "base maintenance" is still paid as is. So the 0.03+9.69 is payed, plus 9.72*4.4 (or 42.79) as penalty, for a total of 5.4x base paid for being 3.2x of full force limit. It just happens that 3.2x force limit, the math for "double it" just happens to match closely with "base+ base(multiply)". In his 100% "over" (or 2x limit total) the penalty is double, because 1*2 is 2. "Add the base" isn't what happens, you're multiplying the percentage "above" the limit of 100%, then multiplying by 2 for the penalty multiplier. Then you apply the multiplier to your entire maintenance cost.

[@LemonCake101]

Ah the classic Strat, not paying for your troops! Yeah stacking those things is very strong, that's why if you are not doing a full WC and don't have colonies, I would recommend grabbing that one province in the Mayan lands that has a cost reduction for your troops from the monument: if you avoid forming a colonial nation, you can just keep it.

[@thestudentYT]

You don't even have to go that far... Moscow has -10% as well

[@LemonCake101]

@@thestudentYT oh for sure, but its always good to grab both!

[@manolvitanov2571]

Getting military hegemon before 1600 sounds sweet

[@emib6599]

I always open with diplomatic and administrative... I'm a bobber that always enter in the 1500 with 30 loans and a coalition of 1/4 of the world. I'll try this for change.

[@rency1803]

Great video, you provide some really useful info and explain things weell. Keep up the good work

[@albertorivera2001]

For free war taxes you could do the tier 8 reform + merc ideas. Or form france for their ideas instead of the merc ideas.

[@Mordacitas7]

Or take the monument in Japan

[@BlueGamingRage]

TL;DW is that regiment cost and land maintenance stack, leading to very cheap armies

[@worldboxvn8214]

To be honest,Force limit itseft is also easy to stack up. Combine with this....At that point the think you should worry about is having manpower to maintain them,not money to pay them

[@FransFoldnes]

Very interesting video and great explanation of the math

[@mohamedjear8917]

Oirat ideas with horde ideas+admin+quanitity, lip service and loyal tribes, and war taxes+grand captain and non-syncretised tengri= Unlimiteeeed hooooorseeees !!!!!

[@sorsocksfake]

Can be some good applications, but fairly limited imo. You still need the manpower to maintain such a large army, and compared to quality-eco are down a whopping 20% discipline (5% advisor, 5% hansa mission, 5% full quality, 5% quality-eco policy). Plus, spending 2 mil per month on war taxes, which means fewer barrages and generals. That is when granting you'd take eco and admin - both are solid ideas, and admin is near-mandatory for a semi-prussia run, but it means you didn't get religious, humanist or infrastructure (all good idea sets imo). I think it's more of an option for hordes with cavalry regiment cost, and russia-scandinavia or Dai Viet (let alone Dai viet into Russia) for artillery regiment cost. Whether or not you go over force limit (you rarely need to), for many countries it'll be great to have that economy unleashed for other purposes.

[@teddys5775]

And here I was stacking morale damage like a fool

[@drayneeru1796]

Thanks for the video

[@kylekelly1167]

The AI seems to factor in the quality of ones army now as in my Kazan game I had horde ideas and quality but no AI would coalition me. Papal states was big and France was big.

[@mathewcallaghan8692]

Excellent video, I really like the videos you make. I think the maths is slightly incorrect for the "Over the force Limit" Calculation. The maintenance of all units increases by double the amount you are over your force Limit. If you had 240 troops (50% over) then the cost of all troops would effectively be doubled, so the Over force limit cost would read 9.69. As you are 220% (2.2 times) over the limit, you have to pay 4.4 times your maintenance in Over Force Limit fees. 4.4 x 9.69 = 42.636 I'm guessing there are some rounding errors which is why the 42.636 doesn't match exactly

[@mathewcallaghan8692]

1.5 x Force Limit = 2 x Army Maintenance 2.0 x Force Limit = 3 x Army Maintenance 2.5 x Force Limit = 4 x Army Maintenance All they need to do is cap Army Maintenance reduction at 80% and I think that would be enough to balance it. Unit cost reductions are capped at 80% reduction.

[@thestudentYT]

No the calculation I did is definetly right as I tested it before where I had exactly 2 times my forcelimit of troops and payed exactly the base maintenance as penalty on top (so exactly 2 times, One time base and one time penalty) You can test it out if you want and you'll see that this is true... The reason why it doesn't work with me while having 3.2 times my FL is literally some PDX math that cannot be understood as with a lot of calculations in Eu4

[@mathewcallaghan8692]

@@thestudentYT Okay cool, quite interesting really.

[@LibertyMonk]

​​@@mathewcallaghan8692no, you are right, it's not even a rounding error, you're just missing 0.03 ducats from a 2 stack sieging without a leader not being lumped in with the 9.69 drilling armies. TheStudent's math might still be correct, I'm not really sure because I don't understand his math. He just goes about it in a different way.

[@dukigaming7286]

Very cool video as always! Also did you see the new 1v1 mod for eu4 and will you ever play it?(the habibies one)

[@thestudentYT]

If I had an enemy :)

[@zigoter2185]

Bro is land maintenance maxxing fr

[@quandangle9397]

maintenancemaxxing

[@LibertyMonk]

Keep in mind, with reductions, multiplicative is a bad thing. 10% discount * 10% discount is only a 19% discount, not 20%, and the numbers get worse the higher you've stacked them. (-10% * -90% is only -91%, not -100%) You should only focus on a single source of army cost reduction if possible until you hit the cap. Once you're at the cap, a multiplicative bonus is tiny, but better than literally nothing.

[@thestudentYT]

Sure but if you get both modifiers to -70% then it's also -90% and that is anyways the cap

[@Idoexist._.]

When you earn +170 or more ducats a month, force limit is just a number. I still like to not leave the force limit window, as these sweet monuments wont build themself

[@thestudentYT]

But those sweet Monument in the Ottoman Lands wont conquer themselves either... and for that you'll need 300k troops more than 50 ducats per month :)

[@Idoexist._.]

France has bonuses to great monuments 2 times, and all of them give excellent bonuses, like being the absolute BEAST of anti reformation with the whole europe being protestant (north of it, but still a lot of it), having ideas for 300, etc. Then its easy to take pope forever, with +34 papal auth/year and curia costing way less. Then, taking ottoblob is easy. Especially with a big hunogry​@@thestudentYT

[@amilavxilmen5632]

I always overlooked land maintenance modifier, always considering it as relatively weak compared to discipline, morale or Army tradition

[@tarunyadav3567]

As always negative modifier stacking is completely broken.

[@GreekNewsK.S.]

@TheStudent I started with the Teutonic Order and became Prussia. Then I become The Hanse League. When I became the Hanse League I lost the militarization. How could I get militarization with the Hanse League like you?

[@racecarcar499]

Is land maintenance and merc maintenance the same? If so this is actually insanely broken as your bottleneck is manpower

[@thestudentYT]

No it's just that Mercs have their own modifiers so if I would recruit 1 Merc Stack right now then it wouldn't be affected by those modifers and I would probably pay like 200 ducats for that one company :)

[@benabaxter]

How quickly can you become the military hegemon with that? Budget Monk did three crown colonies per region and stacked relationship interactions to get hegemon by 1544.

[@thestudentYT]

I mean, probably 1540 will be possible like this as well but I didn't tryhard for it... But I made a video on becoming Mil Hegemon with France in the 1500s if you are interested :)

[@benabaxter]

@@thestudentYT Awesome, will check out. The advantage of his approach is that Castile -> Andalusia was not an end-game tag. RIP French tag flipping.

[@jarvee9407]

Can you consistently pull this off in a campaign?

[@thestudentYT]

Yes... I showed you the modifier list in the second half of the video

[@jarvee9407]

@@thestudentYT its definetely interesting. I attempted to do something like that with custom nation, but what I found was that my trade income just outscaled it too much. So I wonder which one would be more viable.

[@Speedster___]

15:58 would land force limit save more? Also I believe there’s a diet mission for maintence

[@LibertyMonk]

A force limit advisor wouldn't save more in this case, because the additive 10% in a reduction he's already stacked to 80% is actually worth 50%, or around 50 ducats in this example. A 10% force limit advisor would double the "base" cost from ~10 to ~20 ducats (because of losing out on the 10% advisor), then reduce the "over limit" cost from ~40 to ~32, for a total savings of 2 ducats lost. The only time the force limit advisor will save you more is if you're going 10-50% over force limit, AND you're not already stacking maintenance reduction nor force limit% from other sources. Reduction is additive with itself in a good way, while force limit is designed to be brutal if you go slightly over it so going from 2x limit to 1.81x limit isn't 10% savings.

[@fedorshcheglov5534]

Bro is playing hoi4 in eu4

[@korneldekany6689]

I'm really new to the game and I can't find Land Maintinance Modifier. I see Leader(s) without Upkeep, but above that is Institution Spread. Where can I find it somewhere else?

[@thestudentYT]

If you hover over the Land Maintenance in your Economic Tab

[@korneldekany6689]

@@thestudentYT Sorry for my stupidity, but I still cannot find it. I see State Maintenance and Army Maintenance, but not my Land Maintinance Modifier

[@thestudentYT]

@@korneldekany6689 No Problem, I forget how exactly it was called... I ment Army Maintenance... if you hover over that number of ducats that you pay then you should see the modifiers

[@korneldekany6689]

@@thestudentYT I don't see a percantage tough, does that mean that is 0?

[@thestudentYT]

Probably yes

[@johnny-smith]

I have a complicated video idea. Can I contact you somehow to showcase it?

[@thestudentYT]

My E-Mail for buisiness questions is listed under Channel Details, Contact Mail (Directly below my Name in the Channel Overview)

[@fernandolugo3338]

Why did my army limit lowered from 21 to 18, can someone explain this to me?

[@thestudentYT]

Did you get higher autonomy?

[@fernandolugo3338]

@@thestudentYT no i will chek it today, but i don't think that's the problem, maybe it could be because i created too many provinces?

[@skykid]

ah yes the Soviet army model

[@Schwizinberg]

Well, now none of my campings are going to be completely different. How can you have prussian monarchy as lubeck? You've got to form Prussia and switch to lower-saxon culture to form the Hansa?

[@thestudentYT]

No if you start as Teutonic Order and then become Danzig through the disaster (watch my last video) then you can unlock Militarization way before Tech 10 and without being Prussia at all

[@Schwizinberg]

@thestudentYT oh I didn't know thank you!

[@jalllaaavg]

Imagine the smell

[@celdur4635]

But you dont have manpower for that

[@leettroll496]

WTF feels like cheating.