Ptarmigan: The military ancestor of your mobile phone network

[@loracle540]

I was in Trials Squadron at the School of Signals in the early 70's. We had two Austin K9s converted for data trials with data test sets and modems. We spent months roaming UK and Germany doing data trials to see which of the current networks would take data transmission and at what speed. For the advent of Ptarmigan. The results were stored on large magnetic tapes. On return from Germany our officer found that the metal cases for the tapes would not fit into his brief case so took them out. Then travelled on the tube in London and the magnetic fields destroyed the lot.

[@seanpassant3174]

I was lucky enough to serve with big Jim (driving the FV) smashing bloke, glad to see he's doing something so good to maintain our history & heritage.

[@fnln544]

The vehicle is a grand piece of military communications history. Plus, the unique personal knowledge of the comms history. Thanks!

[@david-reason]

I was in the British Army, in Germany, in 1987 and was sent on a Ptarmigan radio operators course. I ran the Orderly Office and the computer system. If war started, I would re-locate the computer to a bunker and use the Ptarmigan radio system for external comms. Everything was practiced and rehearsed. That day never came!

[@michaelshaw8370]

When introduced Ptarmigan was soo far ahead of anything else in its field. When the American military were given the option to duplicate the system for their own use. They turned it down as they did not think their troops could handle such a complex piece of equipment. In many ways it similar to communication systems used on then state of the art Naval vessels. As they also used a system that chopped any signal into many small sections then transmitted them in a jumbled variable order also over multiple frequencies. So when a correctly set up receiver picked up recognised then linked together. It was almost impossible to intercept and effectively decode within any useful timeframe. Then add burst as it compresses the message into a speeded up and encoded secure problem.

[@GregWampler-xm8hv]

Yes I'm sure that's what all your buddies made up and chuckled to. No problem there'll always be ribbing between different groups of men. Nice try. Look up Motorola who got it done in the the early 70's.

[@GregWampler-xm8hv]

FYI offering a citation would certainly help your "case". And no I don't believe this schlock at all, mate.😎

[@JB-fx8bp]

The Americans in 91 had a French communications system. Allegedly not very good

[@mikeycraig8970]

Contrary to what some (probably) Americans have stated, I believe this.

[@mans048]

​@@JB-fx8bpthe Americans used RITA a French system that was also designed and built by racal plessey and some components were common between the two

[@andrewsteele7663]

Fantastic piece of living history, great to see it being kept alive, Cheers

[@JB-fx8bp]

Was an operator of this bit of kit in 91

[@Sailing_Antrice]

Wow I haven’t seen Ptarmigan for ages and ages. I worked on the prototype at Plessey all long gone now

[@Anashadk]

I served as a RR op with 22 sigs in Lipstadt when Ptarmigan came in, I can remember how protective they were about the system when it came in, as an operator it wasn´t that complicated.

[@mans048]

Ah, but were you in Jacques squadron or one of the lower ones. 😘

[@Anashadk]

@@mans048 I don´t know what Jacqes squadron was, there were no "higher" or "lower" squadrons. I was in 4 Sqn. I also used Ptarmigan on Mt. Kent and Mt. Adam (Falklands). I had a look at Mt. Adam on Google Earth the other day, the foundations of the complex are still visible. An unusual posting, several months without any contact with humans and resupply with Chinooks.

[@PhilDrake-u5v]

@@mans048 Now that's a "name" I have not heard for a long time "Jacques" I was 2 Sqn

[@mans048]

@@PhilDrake-u5v hi Phil it's Charlie Manson.

[@BlesamaSoul]

Great bit of history, did not think this stuff existed anymore and had been placed o the dump years ago. Well done for keeping this history alive

[@nikhinson3703]

It was all scrapped. This one has been loving rebuilt to this level.

[@minuteman4199]

Pretty ballsy to be deep behind enemy lines in that thing.

[@sincourier8110]

Balls deep behind enemy’s wives

[@alangibb8985]

I was a Ptarmigan switch operator and then I moved onto the Store and Forward. Worked on it from 87 to 91 and went to the Gulf with Store and Forward 120 which was part of 7th Signal Regt.

[@mans048]

I was at 7 sigs too. 91-95

[@PhilDrake-u5v]

I was 7 Sigs for the move over from Bruin to Ptarmigan

[@sidetone]

I worked occasionally on S&F120 too, but mainly I was on Switch 021. I was in TN021 at 7 Sigs between 87 and 99.

[@alangibb8985]

@@sidetone I was in 024 when I got there. Took the 120 crew out to the gulf and then got told I had to stay with 021 for my last few months before getting posted out.

[@PhilDrake-u5v]

@@sidetone TN021 was my Switch ! I picked it up and in tested it at Blandford before taking it back to Herford and into operation

[@AnonAnonAnon]

I left the army in 1999 after 13 years and I honestly can't remember ever seeing or using Ptarmigan. In 1986 it was DMU coupled with a Clansman 353 for secure comms ad before I left, same set up with the added 'Kipling' text machine.

[@meme4one]

Not all regiments used it. You're lucky if you dodged it to be honest, wasn't much fun back then.

[@bob_the_bomb4508]

I only encountered it once during a 1 (BR) Corps command post exercise. I think it was only used at formation level?

[@mans048]

Probably linked to a cnri

[@_PGT]

Only used at brigade and div level

[@IanCameron-hl1ss]

My dad worker on the prototype and installation of the system into the vehicles back in the early '70s on the south coast. Nice to see the finished article, as in those days it was all secret

[@maxsteele20]

My late father was on Project Wavel in Lippstadt. I Used to mess around in the wagons when I was a kid. I miss you Dad, you grumpy old toad...

[@rumblin_cynth_rampo374]

I worked in the first gen Project Wavell at Lubbecke with the computers in the backs of landrovers for brigades and 4 ton box bodies for div comcens.

[@mans048]

The fv435s were a pain. They were overloaded for the chassis

[@davidstuart2111]

MY brother was on Project Wavel in Lippstadt

[@mans048]

​@@davidstuart2111 we did a massive trial in Herford were all of them were on the square for nearly a month trying to get it to work. Unfortunately the concept whilst sound was too far in advance of the kit we were using.

[@ecossearthur]

22nd Signal Regiment?

[@helierexon9023]

Oh the memories of Ptarmigan Introduction Unit and Sustem Support Team and the new concepts of tactics and support which had to be devised.

[@neilmckie2768]

I was Foreman of Signals at Corps Rear at 22 Sigs and then at ARC HQ at 16 Sigs. Pretty good bit of kit for the time - SCRAT was the dogs nuts, although in the Gulf it seemed to die at dawn and dusk for a wee while - tried everything, but never found out what was causing it. Probably atmospherics in the desert, I guess.

[@alanmcmillan6969]

Very fascinating mobile command centre

[@jeraldboddy5031]

I was a det commander in the TA for the wheeled version of the SAS/MC. Always regretted it was only 24/28V, so no TV in the back. We did have the Regt ELG at our barracks, so that was used to charge every ones phones on training exercises. Pity about the TEMPEST screening blocking all the signals when the doors where shut. We also took part as the evaluation / experimental unit for a BRUIN / Ptarmigan interface system. Ended up playing "chequers" in the patch panel, with techs from 30 Sigs, trying to get the signal path working.

[@ak9989]

I ready my first command TOC 577. But 10 years later the equipment was so different and improved.

[@daz6637]

Worked on Radio Relays both armoured and wheeled👍🏻🇬🇧

[@HellsBells-74]

A both complex & fascinating capability for it’s time 😊

[@PixelSchnitzel]

Another contender emerges for "this is where your cell phone comes from". This was fielded 6 years after the first cellular networks. However, it would be very interesting from a historical perspective to dig deeper into that as Ptarmigan may well have influenced digital cell. It seems likely that there is an interesting connection. VERY interesting walk through and well done. Thank you!

[@125brat]

In the UK the TACS and ETACS analogue cellular phone systems were the forerunners of the digital phone systems we have today, but they were preceded by the BT System 4 and System 3 VHF analogue radiotelephones that had very large cells. As a radio amateur, I converted many of them for use on the 2 metre VHF band. In fact, when system 4 was being closed down many of the Philips FM9140 radiotelephones appeared on the surplus market and were still active because unlike modern systems where a handset has to be enabled on tbe system, the system 4 ones had to be disabled and most weren't. We utilised them for a while until they got disabled. I still have several sets I converted to 2m back in the '90's.

[@mans048]

Ptarmigan started development in the 1970s. It became operational in 1984. There were mobile radio phones in that time but relied on analog radio systems. This was digital and was secure up to secret.

[@PhilDrake-u5v]

@@mans048 I would say it was 70's kit ( the size and lay out of the switches ) but I believe it was shrunk down to fit in a Land Rover ? But this was after my time as I moved to London to work on other bits interesting kit

[@125brat]

@@mans048 Yes, the analogue system was far from secure and I believe could be listened in to with a suitable scanner, not that I ever did of course😁 The GSM network is more secure but I doubt it's secure enough for military/government use without extra encryption.

[@mans048]

@@125brat considering the kit compressed 32 channels into 1 using time division multiplexing, encrypted it 99 times. Automatically rerouted calls with no interruption if a trunk node dropped out (unless it was a local node) it was leaps in advance of most systems at the time

[@UKBleep]

Damn but that took me back

[@steveh5005]

At short notice I was sent to a logistical hub in the Saudi Desert. Manned by RA and Signals. I was responsible to supply 32 & 39 RA. There ammo and MRLS resup on the gun line. Hectic 3 days. And follow through western Iraq. And onto liberation of Kuwait. Ptarmigan was crictical bit of kit. Along with the early hand held GPS. And even early type lap tops!

[@Yorkie263]

Interesting, tare and tarif were the systems we used in the field when I served, ptarmigan was in development but we never got to see it.

[@markcollins2666]

In the US Army, 1990-94, I was an operator of a very similar system, in Germany. Ours had a "pop up" tent that extended from the rear of the vehicle, making much more space.

[@JezArnold]

Most Command Post vehicles the British Army had also had a tent that could be pulled out on poles, and put up.

[@Swatmat]

yes, the 432/6/9 command variants have a 9x9 tent that attaches to the vehicle and can be used to extend the work space

[@mans048]

We have penthouses that attach to the back so you can connect several vehicles in two files back to back. Mainly to give a bit more room and comfort.

[@nikhinson3703]

@@Swatmat9x9 connects to the back of a Land Rover. The tent on the back of the 435/6/9 is referred to as a “penthouse” although it may be 9x9 in size.

[@lafonevc5663]

Crikey it’s been a few years since I sat in front of that! Blast from the past.

[@rumblin_cynth_rampo374]

I ran an Ptarmigan Repair Node in 1ADSR then later in 2IDSR. Had lot more room in an ERV than in the back of Secondry access node.

[@johnboyt2778]

1ADSR LAD REME '87-'90. Small world😂

[@philipgowland4711]

Served at 1 ADSR in Verden 86-89 as a genie op. for the “node home”. Funny how that language is still in my head from 38 years ago 😊

[@ecossearthur]

Very interesting.... Awesome 432.

[@BarghestOne]

I'm in love 😍

[@TheRealPolecat]

Reminds me of watch, Div in one ear Bde in the other with a switch box and Ptarmigan SU on the desk beside a BATCO book for the troops with the big mobiles.🤣

[@vrsmartin2981]

Thanks AS ops. My dept in 19 had one of the "mobile phones" that would link with ptarmigan. Iirc it was SCRA(t) ? Not something you could carry in your pocket. Great times

[@dvorak345]

Correct: Single Channel Radio Access (Terminal)

[@oml81mm]

Single Channel Remote Access (Terminal). It was my way into the ptarmigan system as a humble infantry RSO. However I could not do this without a friendly R Sigs det. And they were always friendly 😊

[@richardsawyer5428]

A tracked Nokia. Brilliant. Same thickness of armour too.

[@mans048]

Harsh, but true 😂

[@digitalradiohacker]

@@mans048 The main difference is that a Nokia won't dump 40 gallons of oily water onto a German exercise area if you carry it up hill.

[@danajorgensen1358]

Influenced cellular technology, perhaps, but the first civilian mobile phones were the Motorola DynaTAC 8000X, introduced in 1973.

[@meme4one]

Oh nice. Sas mc? I took a central to Kosovo and Oman. Actually very advanced for when it was designed, pretty out of date by the time we got it and even more so by decommissioning 😂

[@garymortimer435]

central 321 was mine in Boz set up as a cluster on igman

[@douglashynd957]

I’m sure the antennas etc were developed by Andrew Antenna in Scotland. Worked on them a few times

[@Neojhun]

Now all that fits on your Wrist.

[@bob_the_bomb4508]

Not quite. This vehicle also makes tea :)

[@colleyg8tertv222]

Ah the sas/mc I used to be a det cmdr of one of these detachments in 2006. We found an ak 47 in it from gulf War 1 😆😆

[@mans048]

The engine compartment hides all sorts of sins.. lol

[@miles2378]

Did software defined radios replace this system or did they just make a more compact system that could be mounted on any military vehicle?

[@Fester_]

Licks left thumb, transfers saliva to right. It's instinct, pure bred instinct.

[@Connordanzx777]

I wounder how many amps does this use if I would build it 22 amps

[@davetdowell]

Your mobile phone isn't connecting into an encryted core network, like Ptarmigan did.

[@Bill_Dingsite]

Is that Charlie Mason from 7 sigs 1993 ish narrating

[@PhilDrake-u5v]

I was a det commander of different Switches ( the computerised routing system ) between 1985 -1989 (after spending a couple of years on Bruin before hand) Of my sins I had the task of rebuilding one after it had been used as Corps wide spare parts which I did and got it deployed as Store & Forward 122 After I was posed back to the UK I never worked with Ptarmigan again

[@PhilDrake-u5v]

I was also involved with trials of inter-operability between the comms systems of Germany, Dutch & Belgium To see if the four systems could all work with and through each others systems

[@mans048]

​@@PhilDrake-u5v there was a great cartoon of that exercise with a long queue behind the ptarmigan subset and none behind rita.. lol

[@ragandoil]

did a troop eval with the HAC elements of 21 sas (artist sqd)on this and Wavell moiunted in 1 ton l/rovers , the trial was an exercise was under a German brigade commander , and 1st Falschirmjager around Damersee , i was a watch keeper .

[@timbo9200]

I feel old watching this! Served in 3 Armd Div HQ Signal Sqn, but I was a Radio Tech so left this stuff to the TE Techs. PVRd out of the army as I wasn't nerdy enough for the Signals. No interest it telecomms or tech, so I'd argue that the army careers office put a square peg in a round hole.

[@PhilDrake-u5v]

They converted us TE Techs to Systems Techs ( plus the RR Techs) But then again I was also an ADP specialist in the end, so after I got out I went into IT support

[@trs4u]

If there's only 1 left, can he phone anyone? I need to know they have at least a simulation to talk to!

[@mans048]

We can create our own local network connected to the vehicle. Unfortunately we're not able to extend out on radio links as there is no cryptography for the vehicle anymore

[@PhilDrake-u5v]

@@mans048 Can remember doing the dumps to the PID's for all the local units while at 22

[@digitalradiohacker]

@@mans048 They are as rare as hens teeth, but I have seen the BID bricks and fill gear pop up for sale every so often. You'd need a central and at least one relay just make a single trunk node wouldn't you? I was a liney, so the closest i got to this stuff was hiding in the ERV for a brew from time to time.

[@MadFordEngineering]

I was the 432 like, very apt i think

[@bruceknights8330]

It really came of age when linked to Euromux. Suddenly every unit could have a BT Statesman phone on their ops desk. Thanks to the Shah , who bankrolled it, then got called away

[@occamraiser]

I always assume that the frequency hopping and chopping of the messages into fragments meant that listening to the raw radio was like listening to the call of a ptarmigan..... or is that just nonsense?

[@mans048]

Ptarmigan was line of sight radio links much like the mobile phone towers today Frequency hopping happens so fast it'd just be static

[@oml81mm]

It was a packet switching mobile phone network and depended on "nodes" which were, in effect, mobile cell phone masts. Very basic nowadays but way ahead of it's time in days gone past.

[@SimonMalin-lg4cu]

85 1ADSR verden ptmargian unit everyone trained on it thete Shiel Bks

[@scumminguk]

Secondary access switch message centre SASMC

[@Bryanmccann1981]

cool whats its like in a mobile phone cool

[@richarddepledge960]

interesting. I thoght this was still classified even though its ancient. Def a bit too cramped in there.

[@FLORIDIANMILLIONAIRE]

If you see the latest BAE system like this all this wiring in embedded in the walls unfortunately I can't believe Marines gave the contract to BAE and not my small business but that's life isn't it

[@MattLennie]

What's that SA80 doing there?

[@mans048]

Being useless like always? It's a BB as we can't get hold of a deactivated one. In our armoury we have two SLRs.

[@haalstaag]

Are we allowed to utter the word Tarmegen?Are we allowed to say the word Tarmegan now?

[@BashingBambi]

More antiquated kit that was out of date before issued!

[@GregWampler-xm8hv]

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeyeah uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh NO. For the progenitor of all mobile phones and of course the all important network look up Motorola and Craig McCaw. We Yanks got it done soups to nuts shipmate.😎

[@whya2ndaccount]

Another repeat.

[@coreytrevor9423]

You know when you can just tell someone has autism? Army wouldn’t function without the undiagnosed 😂

[@mans048]

Yeah, you're probably right!! It's been a struggle especially for my wife

[@Swatmat]

I bet the VMs absolutely hated working on that vehicle, so much stuff in it which would have to be removed to actually do any mechanical repairs on the base vehicle.

[@gwinster]

Normal reply from REME was "That's a crew job!"

[@Swatmat]

@@gwinster well, piano boards off and clearing out the back is a crew (well drivers) job.

[@gwinster]

@@Swatmat yup, muff couplings on steering unit though!🥵

[@Swatmat]

@@gwinster easy compared to how the bulldog is now

[@fraserconnell21]

Really interesting 🫡👍🏼