Ford cancels $12 billion dollar Electric Car investment plans

Ford cancels $12 billion dollar Electric Car investment plans
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[@cpl366]

Maybe instead of trying to sell $100k trucks they might look at building a $15k-$20k 4 door hatch/CUV/wagon with decent range and modest bells and whistles. Build a ubiquitous "basic car" in mass numbers, then build out the line up from there.

[@markeh1971]

Hi, they just don’t have the major costs under control. If you buy it all in it costs a fortune. Be like Tesla make as much of it as you can just like ICE vehicles. So no surprise it’s a disaster, or was that the plan all along. Makes you wonder. Meanwhile Tesla keeps on growing and making more profit. Take care all M.

[@tomdrewenskus8167]

@@markeh1971 Not just Tesla is making a profit and increasing their production of EVs. At least 10 of the Chinese EV makers are also now profitable. The decade will not end well for legacy auto when they are pausing or getting out of the EV business. How will they ever produce EVs at enough volume (~500k) to get costs down? Sad story.

[@rogerfroud300]

They don't have the battery supply chain to do that, and those batteries would be too expensive too. You can't just dream up a target price and magically expect it to be possible to meet that.

[@igotanimac1]

That would be stupid. The US Market does not buy $20K subcompact vehicles, they buy mid-size sedans or compact SUVs, so $30K+ vehicles.

[@tomdrewenskus8167]

@@igotanimac1 Then why is Tesla preparing to make the Model 2 ~$20k/$25k EV at gigatexas and then gigamexico if there is no market for it? Someone better tell Elon to stop.

[@eddiegardner8232]

Ford promoted the Lightning as a $40,000 truck. They build them as $75,000 trucks. Why is anyone surprised that their pre-orders disappeared.

[@OtisFlint]

I'd have no problem with $60k for a crew cab lightning XLT with extended range battery...IF it had NACS and full access to the Tesla charging network, there would be one in my driveway. It's far too expensive for a vehicle with garbage 3rd party charging infrastructure, CCS only right now, and future (limited) Tesla network access.

[@TheNewMediaoftheDawn]

No difference from the CyberTruck, started at 40K originally, now way higher if it can even be pulled off on large scale…

[@eddiegardner8232]

@@TheNewMediaoftheDawn Expect a lot of those pre-orders to evaporate also.

[@Notme-tq4xs]

If they priced them at $40,000, their loss is $40,000 per truck. 100%.

[@Gregory-Masovutch]

This is just the beginning on EVs collapsing altogether when it comes to trying to sell to the masses.

[@stephenboyington630]

Rule #1 of business: do not spend a lot of money making things people do not want to buy.

[@acolon8999]

Or make a good product that many would want to buy and can afford.

[@Texarmageddon]

@@acolon8999 yeah I don’t think many want this though. Won’t even see Tesla sell that many trucks

[@acolon8999]

@@Texarmageddon At the moment even though there are many other BEVs in the market, Tesla is dominating because they have the most compelling vehicle for the price. If others had the range, efficiency, software, utility, charging network plus a selling price close or lower than Tesla, they would be selling every car they made. Both my wife and I switched to BEVs after driving ICEVs for decades and we don't see ourselves buying another ICEV again. Once you try a compelling BEV there is no going back to ICEVs. That's as long as you can charge it at home/work. As prices come down and more people get exposed to compelling BEVs the demand will be there as long as the price is reasonable and the financial macro environment stabilises.

[@kelargo]

All of the dealers around me still have 2022 lariat trucks. Its almost 2024. They priced themselves into this by pushing customers away. Even ICE trucks are too expensive.

[@akpowarri3504]

Has anyone heard the following news: Hertz pulls back on EV plans citing Tesla price cuts, high repair costs. EV manufacturers need to make EV's cheaper to repair. We all know that EV's require less maintenance and we know the reasons for this but why are EV's costlier to repair than ICE vehicles when they are relatively simpler machines in principle ? I reckon this cost is partially why insuring Ev's is becoming prohibitive. I'm beginning to fear that the vision of Gigacasting which is to arrive at one single frame may contribute to increased difficulty repairing EVs. Before the advent of mass Ev manufacture, i used to imagine that EVs would be simpler to repair than conventional fuel cars and that this would add to the advantages of EV's.

[@larryevans6739]

I wouldn't say all EV's. The thing is, there are compromises associated with designing a car to be repaired. You need to factor in clearances to access and replace parts. Things become a bit heavier and more costly if you design it to come apart and go back together rather than going together once. Making updated parts backwards compatible can reduce the level of optimization. Filling a battery case with rigid foam will make it stiffer, but also disposable if damaged. Gigacastings, by nature, are not as easy to repair. Tesla clearly chose to design their cars to go together once, which increases costs to repair. For a first-world private new car consumer, it might not make as much difference. But for fleets that see heavy abuse or third world countries that repair vehicles that would be totalled elsewhere, it does make a difference. In the US, many people just associate EV's with Tesla. Other automakers make a concerted effort to design their vehicles to be repaired.

[@Jamessansome]

I did watch a video that suggested the giga castings could be repaired. The most likely to be damaged areas like inner wheel wells could be cut out with location markings to weld a new section back in. The difference being the part is aluminium not steel. It would require the same amount of stripping down of the car if it was made with steel sections.

[@brawnbenson552]

This is theater, pure and simple. Jim Farley recently explained their problems in a candid interview. (it’s very insightful) Farming out everything instead of building everything in house, Not being a software company. It’s the perfect storm of union workers demanding more, franchise dealerships charging outrageous mark-ups, States passing regulations they feel the cannot meet. By canceling this program they hope they will reset all their problems.

[@brunosmith6925]

You nailed it... 100% correct, well described in a handful of sentences

[@Puzzoozoo]

In other words there is a storm coming, and the wind is starting to pick up.

[@lo1234-w9r]

The auto OEM/dealership model in this country is broken, plain and simple. Not to worry however, papa gubment will save the day and step in with our tax dollars to float this Titanic at whatever the cost.

[@iworkout6912]

I wonder what will happen to EPA's exhaust standard which could put petrol power out of the race. I know they are thinking of setting such numbers. Maybe if we had a change in Washington and some state houses, it won't happen. Politicians aren't known to be the smartest people on the block, so will they go ahead anyway and mandate EV's for not only cars but heavy trucks, buses etc. Didn't the mayor of Boston say that any project built in Boston for the city, had to use electric only equipment, much of which doesn't exist.

[@Jttw2131]

I'd consider EVs if: - they were 20k or less - there are as many charging stations as gas stations so I can charge anytime, anywhere and don't need to install a 3k electrical outlet at home - a full charge takes less than 5 minutes - a full charge has a range of 350 miles or more - replacing worn-out battery costs less than $200 - they can be fixed by any independent car mechanic or bodyshop - gov't subsidizes me for giving up my ICE cars, which are fully paid off Until then, I'll keep my ICE cars which are in perfect condition, and good for at least 250,000 miles or 10 years.

[@SliderFury1]

Here's what it comes down to. People who want an EV can't afford one. People who can afford one, don't want one. And most everyone who wants one and can afford one, already have one. The end. The market is stuck.

[@brucerosner3547]

In California Tesla outsells everyone.

[@anthonyremley1575]

@@brucerosner3547California isn’t the rest of the country

[@philiptaylor7902]

“Dave takes it on” did a great analysis of the situation facing not only Ford but all the legacy manufacturers. Their business model is shot. They thought EV’s were just an ICE with an electric motor, how wrong they were.

[@flybrand]

This one? kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJiZp6iCpN5ogMksi=PhpekC5Q032lBO_c

[@icosthop9998]

L😂L Bingo 👍

[@mrjasonjneal]

What a mess

[@rogerhull5632]

Do I hear a dying sound of a once great company?

[@josephdan2850]

You are 100 percent wrong sir

[@icosthop9998]

. ⚰️ 🥀

[@agoodlife2]

Working people can’t afford EV in the United States, sales of EV is collapsing they are too expensive, not conducive for road trips

[@USACars-id3bf]

The EV market is collapsing , you are seeing more and more used EVs on car lots. Salesmen are saying they are being traded in for gas models

[@allenaxp6259]

Here is the debt of the top 12 auto companies as of September 30, 2023, in billions of US dollars: Rank Company Debt in Billions 1 Toyota 217 2 Volkswagen 185 3 Daimler Truck 174 4 Stellantis 168 5 Ford 162 6 General Motors 151 7 BMW 146 8 Honda 141 9 Hyundai 135 10 Nissan 129 11 Renault 123 12 Volvo Group 117 Despite the high debt levels of some auto companies, the industry is generally considered to be in good financial health. Auto sales are expected to continue to grow in the coming years, and the industry is investing heavily in new technologies, such as electric vehicles and autonomous driving.

[@adamrak7560]

About 5 years worth of profit in debt is considered okay (if it is also backed by the material value of the factories). This is a delicate balance, if something lowers the profits drastically and devalues the currently working factories, than bankruptcy is most likely.

[@yo2trader539]

Those "debt" are from financial subsidiaries that offer car loans to their customers. They borrow money from capital markets to make loans to customers, so the debt and asset appear on both sides. Thus, the debt amount largely traces the number of vehicle sales.

[@Dggb2345]

Ford Mustang ECO boost banger. 315 horsepower, 350 ft lbs torque. 32 mpg highway. Full tank of gas 512 miles. Drive from LA to SF and have 131 miles still in the tank. Fill up in 3-4 minutes. Park it in your garage and no fire danger. Crash it little to no fire danger. It can be repaired in any body shop. This car represent unprecedented value of performance both 0-60 4.5 and fuel performance 32 mpg. At a stinking low price, $30K Ford should be engineering more cars and trucks along these lines instead of pissing away capital, wasting engineering talent on asinine EV dumpster fires. Tesla specs: 1200 lbs battery. 270 miles range. Gotta stop if you’re going to SF from LA. No worries. From 20% to 80% 1/2 hour if, IF the charger is available and If it is working. An original Volkswagen Beetle weighed 175O lbs. Tesla battery 1200 lbs. So you’re hauling a Beetle around everywhere you drive. This EV madness and un scientifically proven climate crisis must stop before it’s too late.

[@josephgallagher1440]

Great video and agree. History is a great teacher and repeats itself.

[@andrewkaiser7203]

Maybe Ford should beg Rivian for forgiveness and resume some form of collaboration? Also, no thumbs up for using Kodak as an example of not changing. They did get in to digital cameras about as fast as one could expect. In fact, my first digital was Kodak, which was very good. Around the year 2000, it was a 3 megapixel at around $300. Very good for the time. I still have a similar one. It's fine. Anyway, they didn't act like Toyota or Mercedes. Bad example of a disrupted company refusing to change. Please pick another example.

[@Wiscotac]

Yeah, I had an early Kodak digital and I don't know why they didn't dominate or at least become a contender, they did much of the pioneering of digital cameras. I guess their marriage to the past acted like a ship anchor along with other business reasons. Many times in older established businesses change is said to be a good thing, sans classic bottom line thinking, but just maybe not in their back yard.

[@TheBooban]

Yeah, but too little too late. But true, Kodak is nothing special. They lost because the west lost electronics. And why? Same as everything else, US workers are paid too much. And why are their salaries so high? Because US is so expensive to live in, they have to pay for so many services which are FREE in other countries.

[@danharold3087]

I totally agree with your assessment. By 2003, the digital camera market had surpassed the photo film market in size. Pixel count was growing which meant people were upgrading. In the early 2000s, Sony and Toshiba were selling high-quality optical arrays for less. 100s of companies made digital cameras with these.

[@oldbloke204]

@@TheBooban Yeah but buying cheap crap made by some poor schmuck in working conditions that the person in the West buying it would never tolerate is just so admirable isn't it.

[@skataskatata9236]

Kodak got in, but too little, too late. exactly like Ford.

[@Gregory-Masovutch]

It’s not just Ford. GM and Honda are dumping EVs as well.

[@rotart12arx3]

Good for Ford. Just paid $3.21 a gallon for gas in CT, who wants to buy a EV that drops 10 to 20K as soon as you drive it off the lot. Wait months for parts if in a accident and have service departments clueless how to fix them.

[@steveschilling5966]

i think we need to wait and see what happens next the uaw contract had a lot to do with this decision.

[@davidhancock91]

Governments have forced manufacturers down this track. consumers just don’t want them, because they do not stack up. consumers want NP Hybrids and well priced , economical ICE vehicles.

[@bertschb]

Just as I predicted a year ago. Most auto companies are going all in on EV's and they will fail. The demand from the U.S. consumer isn't there. Only governments and the media want EV's. Without incentives or laws forcing EV compliance, EV's won't catch on because most people don't want them. Way too many drawbacks. Overall sales will increase slowly in the US over time but the companies that switch 100% to EV's will collapse.

[@wertigon]

Why would you *not* want a $45k Electric over an equivalent $40k ICE car? Soon, that will be $35k EV over equivalent $40k ICE. Norway has proven ICE is dead, as has EU as a whole, as has China, and soon the US will follow suit but is lagging right now. Still, by end of 2025 EV market share will be 20% or more in the US and by 2028 it will be 70%. Globally it is already 17% up from 10% last year. EVs are finally economically the better alternative.

[@brucerosner3547]

Tesla outsells everyone in California.

[@johndefalque5061]

If I did go green again on an e-scooter, I'm soured on e-bikes, range is an issue. 60kms, then waiting 6-12 hrs for a full charge. In Taiwan, they have battery drops so range doesn't matter. Towns are very far apart here in Quebec.

[@Josh-179]

It's easy to criticize legacy auto vs Tesla and BYD, ignoring that Tesla's non-union labor costs are about $30 less an hour (benefits included). And Chinese labor costs are a fraction of American, German, and Japanese costs. Not a level playing field.

[@SylvesterJcat]

The Mach E Mustang is not selling.Meanwhile The new 2024 ICE Mustang can not keep up with the orders.That will sell like hot cakes.

[@Ghosy01]

Thanks uaw . Mexico is looking good for this plant now .

[@Wiscotac]

Possibly true, however maybe true because of the way we structure our capitalist ways and what those ways values are all about.

[@drewthompson7457]

In Canada, the federal and provincial governments gave Ford about $600 million to develop EVs. Last I read, Ford is taking until 2027 to begin building EVs in Canada, with most of the workforce laid off. My tax dollars hard at work.... I still haven't found out what is becoming of the $ billions of my tax dollars going to VW and Stellantus for batteries, since both companies have cut back on EVs.

[@beautifulgirl219]

TESLA SHOWS AMERICAN AUTO HOW to build THE BEST BEVs IN THE WORLD. Ford needs to step up their game, improve the BEVs, reduce the costs, and make a profit per BEV. Satisfying the UAW won't save Ford.

[@ghostmourn]

Is Ford even capable of vertically integrating like Tesla has been able to do? Or will this tech & industry mature to a place where they wont have to? My experience is this: I am very turned off with the fact that Ford dealerships overcharge so much for the Lightning trucks - it just doesn't make sense when you can direct buy from other company's and avoid this potential nightmare. And its not just a California problem, I went and looked at Lightnings on a lot here in Maine and they were like 90k. 🤷‍♂ If they want to compete for my money they have to solve that or I will probably never buy one.

[@danclary6609]

Interesting that they had that many cancellations yet it still took over two years to get my truck

[@chris27gea58]

No fortitude and ultimately no clue of how to get out of the corner that it has painted itself into are the reasons that Ford will likely lose everything in the end. GM is in the same boat. Neither company is ready to produce reasonably priced EVs at scale although GM's partnership with SAIC gives it a bit more wiggle room. Tesla and Chinese EV manufacturers will hammer Ford and GM for the next few years unhindered. The second generation EVs that Ford talks about, that are expected to arrive in 2026, could easily be non-starters because that distant date will make Ford late to the party and the meagre investment that we're seeing in EV manufacturing capacity suggests that Ford will still be production constrained at that point. I can't see a winning formula for Ford in any of this.

[@AnotherPilot1]

Very well stated...very well written.

[@maurobrattich7971]

Ford makes money selling only pick ups. My feeling is that the average "Ford man" is not interested in EVs. It will be interesting to see how the Maverick hybrid, "small" truck will do. I see Toyota is planning to offer an equivalent electric pickup in the "near" future. I hope BYD, VW and Tesla will follow suit

[@joe2mercs]

It takes time and money to build competitive and compelling EVs. By not spending money Ford is in grave danger of wasting time. The market is not going to stand and hold the door open for Ford to walk back in. I think history will record that Ford’s decision to defer its investments was a key turning point that led to its eventual demise.

[@Dggb2345]

😂😂😂 Thanks for the insight.

[@iworkout6912]

Don't forget the EPA has a say in what will be sold in the future. To meet their tailpipe standards coming down the road, no gas powered vehicle could possibly be sold.

[@Texarmageddon]

@@iworkout6912that depends entirely on the public. If it gets to the point where even the people on the left starts hounding their representative of the EPA making things hard on them they’ll retract anything.

[@eddiegill]

Sounds like Ford and GM rushed into EVs without a solid plan.

[@ronnie8252]

Like they always do

[@iworkout6912]

Politicians are just as much at fault, thinking they could demand customers buy EV's even if they didn't want to.

[@DavidSeto-i2q]

If we let Chinese EVs come with the normal 2.5 percent import car tariff, they will destroy Ford and GM.

[@brucerosner3547]

Apparently at least 80% of the commentators have never heard of Tesla otherwise they would not complain about EVS costing $60K. A Tesla 3 is now about $30K even without tax credits.

[@TurnerRentz]

I don't believe Ford is saying that entire 12B investment is off, or that they're out of the EV game - it's just that their EV market has been strafed by Tesla. Another channel pointed out there are three types of consumers here - the first, is someone who will buy the new hotness and price points are not heavy weight in their decision - then comes the second, who is willing to try something new, but wants a decent price. These two consumers do their homework. But the market has largely been depleted of these buyers, and the really big wave of buyers comes from third wave consumers - people who are casual in their search, and want something affordable, good, and they will respond to advertising. Ford EV will still be there in the future - but this last wave of buyers is the biggest and you almost have to go through the first two markets to get to them - so it will get interesting fast. Think Ford's Gen 3 and 4 vehicles will be pretty good. But for now, agree with the Viking. They're making a mistake to back away from the response to their strategic inflection point they are facing in their business. Wish them luck

[@nicosskoutellas]

Electric vehicles is not the only way to clean energy. It seems traditional manufacturers will invest in ways to produce ICE cars with clean fuels. It's the only way they will survive.

[@Vilmir]

so the Kodak pattern will repeat itself :(

[@skataskatata9236]

yeah. but much worse. we are comparing 2 companies with a huge scale difference.

[@DG-hw8it]

If you ever received photo/video from an iphone user, you might know who's next. 😊

[@stevebeever2442]

No not really. The 2 are completely different as the free market decided what happened there. The free market is not at play here. These companies are being forced into this. The free market is not deciding the outcome.

[@Vilmir]

@@stevebeever2442 I agree. Digital photo had a big convenience advantage that made it highly desirable. EVs do not have this convenience advantage over ICE. It's even quite less convenient for most users.

[@Igoriann]

I don't get how they can lose 35k on each vehicle when awd mach E base is like 50k. There's no way they're spending 85k to build one. Wording goes a long way.. no company makes vehicles to lose money on them or they wouldn't be making them. I think you're trying to say that they're not selling as many and counting all the unsold ones Into the equation. It's not like these cars are automatically thrown down the river if not sold right away. In worst case, ford can sell it for what it cost them to make it and they'll break even. As for mach E, what are you even talking about. It's got amazing range, it's WAAYYYYYYY better quality than tesla can Ever dream of being, it looks better than any other EV on the market, it handles good and it's very well insulated. Show me one EV that comes with that many options, doesn't squeak, and has this kind of quality in the interior. This dude is literally portraying himself to be some kinda EV guy but doesn't know s***. Every other video he's talking S*** about ford but praises plastic cheap panel gaps noisy and bumpy ride tesla. Tf outta here!

[@rogerfroud300]

The UAW is partly responsible for this decision, they've just added more cost to making these vehicles that were already making a huge loss. Ford has painted itself into a corner, and it's hard to see a way out.

[@1001Hobbies]

The percentage of the cost to *build* a vehicle at Ford that is labor is about 4 - 5%. The new contract is going to raise that to about 6 - 7%. This leaves 93 to 94% of the cost of the vehicle that is NOT labor. It would seem somewhere in that 93 -94% of cost that some cost savings could be found, if even needed, because Ford already raised their prices 30% over the past 4 years, just to see what the market would bear, and to increase profit. The slight increase in labor is already much more than covered by this price increase. I always muse, when the company says they need to "save money" they always look at the 4 - 7% labor cost to build a vehicle to get 100% of that savings, while ignoring the other 93 - 96% of the cost to build a vehicle. Does that make sense??

[@icosthop9998]

The Business mind 😬

[@kenshey3912]

Most of my friends would like an electric vehicle. Lack of in stock is an issue. Those who would wait already bought. 95% don’t want to wait 6months or more to receive the vehicle. This Amazon type of sales makes ford happy but not the consumer. Ford doesn’t understand that. The past is the past…

[@taker610]

Every car should just adopt the Nissan E-Power powertrain which is an evolution of the BMW i3 with gasoline range extender. An all electric range of 150 miles for everyday use and a gasoline range extender for road trips. Less cost and a better solution than plug-in hybrids.

[@davestagner]

Meanwhile, I’m seeing more and more Rivians on the road. Their sales are growing exponentially.

[@davisdesigns1153]

They discontinued every affordable car in south africa, no longer a-ford-able

[@Kevin-zs9sv]

They should take 1 billion and spend it on fixing their software or buy one of the Chinese companies like VW did

[@nathanbrumbaugh8545]

Comparing efficiency of mach e with bolt shows another problem. Bolt is much more efficient!

[@Ryan-ff2db]

Yes. The bolt could be a great car, it just needs some updates as the tech is now pretty old in a fast moving industry.

[@icosthop9998]

On many KZbin channels the MACH-E got a lot of bad reports. And don't forget when Jim Farley finally took a Lightning and drove one, he was very disappointed.

[@diljitjedi]

The only electric car I would ever buy and I've been looking at the trend also been watching your KZbin channel the best out there the only manufacturer for electric cars would have to be Tesla I can't see anybody catching up myself Chinese industry maybe one day only thing annoying about tesla's might be the fact they've lost their indicator stalks

[@teslabulls1238]

So basically Tesla will get nearly all of the EV cash from the Inflation Reduction Act.

[@Ryan-ff2db]

Hyundai is building a 7.6 billion EV plant in Georgia and Byd is building facilities as well in several locations including LA. Both companies are looking to cash in on the incentives, but yeah, the legacy automakers are in trouble unless their 2nd gen EV's are a significant improvement over this generation because quite frankly Tesla, BYD, Rivian and Hyundai are really the only companies producing EV vehicles worth buying. Fords line-up is a joke and GM's bolt needs some serious updates. If GM can get the bolt updated soon and sell for a similar price it could help, but they seriously need to get their act together.

[@ISuperTed]

They already are!

[@stevegorkowski3246]

I think they are going to phase into all electric cars and trucks over time. They just need to reduce cost and tune in their design while selling ICE cars and trucks. They are losing too much money and have to stop the bleeding. In time range will not be the main factor but a refined product at a competitive price that can be serviced by third party service service centers after the warranty runs out.

[@lalutte65]

The clear fact is customers have spoken and decided what they will and won’t purchase, regardless of the current governments attempt to push EVS

[@stellaa1328]

Might be because EVs aren't that great and people are starting to not want them. Stick to what sells, ICE. Stick to what matters, ICE. Stick to what's good, ICE.

[@Kevin-zs9sv]

Legacy auto won’t start selling EVs at high volume until they have NACS and access to Tesla chargers, so maybe 2025 or 2026.

[@volvo1354]

in short, the compromises an electric vehicle owner has to make far outweigh the benefits

[@strangerdanger8462]

Totally agree. Honestly, I'm not even so sure what those benefits are, these days.

[@beautifulgirl219]

Ha ha ha, weird spin, not at all what the video was about. Drive / own a TESLA and get back to us. Cheers.

[@acolon8999]

Let me start by saying that for decades I’ve owned and driven many different ICEVs. I have decades of experience with ICEVs. I have nothing against them and I think that the government should not attempt to dictate what we can and can not drive. We should all be able to buy what we want and can afford ICEVs or BEVs. Here are some of the benefits that I got and I am getting from owning a BEV. It was cheaper than the Acura MDX I was looking to buy. Because the PV system that I have at home already saved me more money than what I paid for it, 95% of the time I charge for free at home and don’t have to wait or drive to a gas station once or twice a week. I take many long distance road trips (most recent one was 3,400 miles) and while it does take longer to charge compared to getting gas, during the year I actually save time when compared to driving and spending 5 minutes at the gas station 60+ times a year. In 3.5 years and over 70k miles besides a new set of tires, I’ve only spent $76.82 in maintenance. My wife has 28k miles on her Model Y and has only spent $5 in maintenance. These cars have better technology, they are safer, and more reliable than ICEVs. Don’t get me wrong, BEVs are not more convenient for everyone especially those who can’t charge at home/work but if you have electricity at home that you can use to charge your car, that makes them very convenient. I have experience on both ICEVs and BEV’s specifically Tesla and knowing what I know from experience about both, I don't see myself buying another ICEV again. What’s your personal experience with BEVs?

[@volvo1354]

@@beautifulgirl219 my father left me his Mercedes diesel in his estate, gets 970 km per tank of fuel. show me your Tesla in 30 years, then we can have a legitimate conversation. cheers!

[@RyoshiKuraOka]

I own a Model Y. Commuter car charged in my garage. It replaced a mid size SUV. The benefits: It's faster, quieter, smoother, much cheaper to operate (3.2 cent per mile vs 20 cents per mile), requires no maintenance, handles better, warms itself up (the cabin) in the mornings, no need to stop at a smelly gas station, and with the tax credits it cost less than the original price of the 2015 SUV it replaced. The compromises: Insurance went up $8.00 per month, I have to argue with my daughter over who get to drive it, and I no longer get to lay on a cold garage floor to change the oil.

[@MTerrance]

When Ford estimated its cost of production for EV's it included fixed costs for the required equipment and facilities. Because it is not selling as many units as it estimated it would, it has to spread those costs over fewer models, increasing the cost of each model to cover those sunk costs. That is why it is losing more on each vehicle. If Ford only made one EV, the cost of that vehicle would be billions. This is what happens when sales decline whereas if the sales were greater than estimated those same sunk costs would be spread over many more vehicles reducing that component of each vehicle's costs. This is not mysterious. Tesla has been able to reduce its costs in part because it has kept selling more and more vehicles, reducing the sunk costs for its plants and equipment per vehicle. That is why Elon has said Tesla is going to slow down on its investments in new facilities, figuring that until the cost of money (interest) goes back down, sales will slump - making it harder to cover those investments without raising its cost per vehicle. This is the issue faced by Rivian and others, selling too few units to spread its fixed costs without hammering its per unit cost.

[@richardbarrett8365]

Good for a start, next cancel the whole EV assembly line

[@mikegoezinnen]

Better for the little childeren that have to mine the lithium so we can have clean air.

[@chrisballengee7603]

I think this has more to do with UAW than anything else.

[@joezolo9986]

People have heard the horror stories about charging. They have also heard that almost all EV manufacturers are switching to the Tesla charger. They know if they wait a year they can get the better charging plug. Customers are willing to wait.

[@scottmcshannon6821]

2-3 years at least. it takes legacy auto forever to make even the smallest changes.

[@stephenboyington630]

You Tesla folks are fascinating to me. You are so focused on the minute-to-minute of Tesla hype that you cannot see the big picture. It will be the downfall of many of you.

[@joezolo9986]

@@stephenboyington630 Please explain. What long term are we missing? In the mean time. You re getting fed a line of BS. Tesla has two of the top ten best selling cars. Not best selling EVs. Best selling cars. Tesla has a waiting list. If they could build more cars, they would sell more cars. That's why they keep building more factories. They're also vertically integrated because there are parts shortages. They now have their own lithium refining plant in Austin, they build their own chips. They build their own batteries. They even bought more than 10,000 acres of lithium rich land in Nevada, to start their own mine. Tesla is the company pushing innovation. The legacies can't keep up. Between their slowness to adapt and the unions, it's just a matter of time before they go bankrupt. Some will go out of business. Slowness to adopt can be a good thing. In this case it's not. It's so bad most refuse to see what Tesla is doing and learn. Tesla is making a profit on every car they sell. The legacy manufacturers are losing around 40K per vehicle. Rivian is losing 30K and they aren't legacy.

[@MrTidx90]

This I agree with. I would really like an Ioniq 5 but I’ll wait until it’s built with the NACS charger.

[@MrTidx90]

@@stephenboyington630 Explain the big picture 🤔

[@qingyuhu]

Delay EV investment by ford is prudent move, they realized they need to retool and redesign their EV. They should call Tesla and OEM their drivetrain.

[@BarryObaminable]

They can simply make a Ford Maverick Plug in. and a maverick EV. BOOM 400k sales if they wanted it. Battery only 14kwr or 65 kwh

[@scottbrown7415]

The car companies need to leverage the fact that they drive a huge percentage of the economy and TELL their respective respective government, no matter what part of the world they are operating i, that their business models are determined by market research data and customer demand. NOT government mandates.

[@LarryHatch]

SHOW IDEA FOR SAM: People have been talking and writing about "EV MARKET TIERING OUT". I guess this is a marketing term when early (and wealthier) adopters from upper to upper-middle classes max out their purchases and middle-middle to lower-middle buyers can't afford the item yet. This sounds like the US Big Three problem as the market for $50-80 EV is limited to a couple of higher economic brackets. Families taking home $3000-5000 a month net can't afford two EV payments and often not even one. Tesla 3 in my market is still $736 a month (loan) and those heralded $399 lease deals require $4500 down, hardly a middle class kind of down payment. Ford and GM are basically talking about scaling back because of middle class "tiering out". Union deals are not going to make things any better.

[@brucerosner3547]

The Tesla 3 is about $30K even without a tax credit. The bottom line is that Tesla can make a profit at this level and the big three can not for the foreseeable future. Even Vietnam of all places will sell an EV in the US at this price level as well. Lest you laugh, recall Detroit laughed at Datsun in the 60's.

[@LarryHatch]

@@brucerosner3547 Yes, Vinfast is 90 minutes up the road from my office. They will do great things with at least three billionaires and much of North Carolina behind them. NC has had Tuscaloosa and Spartenburg envy for some years now so want to prove what we can do. They just need to get the quality issues fixed and they are listening the right ways. Datsun is a lesson but they were never half or a full paycheck like Tesla is for working folks today. A friend of mine is paying north of $4500 a year for Model S insurance and those claimed lower rates are available only in theory. That would cripple us working families.

[@anindyodutta8247]

Whatever I'm seeing and hearing so far, it looks like Toyota has an "I told you so" story to tell the world...

[@whynotthinkwhynot-]

There was this guy a long time ago, Henry, he decided that instead of making cars for affluent customers only- he’d make a lot of cars cheap for everyone else. Maybe they should try that instead. I agree all the 3rd party parts makers is not good. GM’s most popular EV is the cheapest one… they might be on to something.

[@whynotthinkwhynot-]

Maverick EV, European Ford Explorer, or ground up an Escape EV on a skateboard already.

[@ISuperTed]

That’s coming but only for makers who stay in the market and continue to develop EV’s. Running away like Ford means they have absolutely no chance of making cheap EV’s in the future.

[@number1genoa]

Its always harder for an incumbent supplier because adopting the new technology undermines your legacy product, share holders will not support it and it confuses the customers. The results are predictable but there is no easy answer to this business conundrum.3

[@mikelyr18]

No manufacturing technology. no true EV design, no EV plants.No chance.

[@Be-Es---___]

The last time a traditional car manufacturer (VW) did some software. It cost them a fortune.😅 They're not good at that.😜

[@peppie0521]

Everyone at Ford pushing EVs should be fired. Worse idea ever.

[@archidube]

What about their CATL battery factory?

[@icosthop9998]

Thank you for mentioning how the NEW cars are not moving off the lot. And it is not just Ford. The repossession of cars is at a thirty year high. So no doubt Ford lending division is in deep trouble.

[@TeslaWu-x8m]

They need to rebrand cheap Chinese EVs to buy time to transition over to their own more high end EVs.

[@johnyoung9649]

I wasn’t inclined to buy a non-Tesla EV due to the lack of a robust charging network. Now that the OEMS have signed on for NACS, the non-NACS network will only get worse. This may hurt sales of the cars they are making right now.

[@keegan854]

CCS cars, including those already on the road, will be able to use NACS with an adapter. Almost all automakers have already confirmed this. Using an adapter isn't a big deal when most people only roadtrip a few times per year.

[@smarticus6384]

This is purely a government-caused problem. Firstly, the government passed a trillion-dollar bill that has baked in the forced transition to EVs, forcing legacies to double down on their debt and begin building EVs. Secondly, the bill and other bills caused inflation and interest rate hikes, which is making debt restructuring difficult to impossible. Thirdly, the profit problem. All legacies are deep in debt, needing to invest super-heavily into BEVs, and the products will not make them a profit until they can reach economies of scale. Now they realize the real problem, e.g., all those investments into ICE will soon become losses, and at some point, the reduction in ICEv production will make every ICE vehicle also a profit loss. So they are staring at a future where, at best, they are losing money on ICEv production and BEV production simultaneously, which will push them into bankruptcy. Why would anyone or any bank want to invest in a company, knowing no matter what financially difficult times are in its future? There is nothing wrong with EVs, but the market should determine the outcome, not forced government policies. Anytime government bureaucrats make decisions for the free market, disaster occurs.

[@CiaranMcHale]

I disagree with your analysis. The *first* thing the US government did was to provide various carrots to encourage auto makers to switch to making EVs. If you watch the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car?", you will see that legacy auto companies did their best to sabotage such efforts. Then, a few years later when Tesla starting making EVs, legacy auto companies ignored Tesla until that start-up company because a existential threat. Now, unfortunately, it looks like it is too late for some/most/all legacy auto companies to undo the damage caused by their reluctance to embrace EVs. I suggest you read the book "The Innovator's Dilemma: When New Technologies Cause Great Firms to Fail" by Clayton M. Christensen. That classic business book, first published in 1997, provided numerous case studies to show it is unfortunately common for incumbent market leaders to ignore start-up competitors until it is too late. Evidence to support that that is what is happening now can be seen by noticing that it is not just US legacy auto makers that are struggling, but legacy automakers worldwide, so it is unreasonable to blame US government policies for the downward spiral being faced by non-US legacy auto makers. As for "the market should determine the outcome" (and hence governments should not try to influence markets)... That makes sense in general, but not in cases where "the public good" is tied up in marketplace decisions. For example, it is widely known that there are significant health and environmental problems caused by the use of fossil fuels in ICE cars, so it is reasonable for governments to decide they have an ethical responsibility to step in to try to encourage consumers to choose EVs over ICE vehicles. And if you object to governments providing tax breaks and subsidies to achieve this aim, then I suggest you acknowledge that governments have provided massive tax breaks and subsidies to oil-related industries for many decades.

[@MrGMawson2438]

Morning mate

[@grahamf695]

The parallels with Kodak are stark.

[@Dggb2345]

😂😂😂 BS. Digital replaced film. Massive advantages to digital vs film. EV’s suck at the very basic energy density level. Gasoline 35 mega joules per liter. Lithium 0.3 MJ/L.

[@grahamf695]

@@Dggb2345 yes of course gasoline is an excellent fuel to power vehicles. Unfortunately, it is also contributing to making our planet uninhabitable. At some point our oil reserves will run out, so we will need an alternative then anyway. My EV works fine for me. It has a 310 mile range in summer and I hardly ever need to charge it anywhere except at home. There seem to be various battery technologies that may increase energy density. If we could get EVs to a range of 600 miles, range anxiety would pretty well disappear.

[@Dggb2345]

@@grahamf695 Read or Google Alex Epstein to challenge your climate catastrophe assertion. Fossil Future: Why Global Human Flourishing Requires More Oil, Coal, and Natural Gas--Not Less. Napkin analysis: Ford ECO boost turbo charged. 32 mpg. 0-60 4.5 secs. 16 gallon gas tank. Filled weighs 100 lbs. range 512 miles. Time to fill 3-4 minutes. Starting at $30k. No taxpayer gimmes on the price. Quick Tesla search. 270 miles range. Batteries weigh in at 1200 lbs. Takes 1/2 hour to go from 10 -80 percent. Then additional 1/2 hour for last 20 percent at trickle charge. $37000 before taxpayer subsidies. Mustang turbo charged. Faster, handles better, there is no rational reason to buy an EV. The CCP hates the freedom of the USA if you haven’t heard and they control the EV supply chain. EV’s debunked scarcity of oil and climate BS have been promoted to bring down Western civilization and institute a global police state. That’s a fact not a fantasy. So no, won’t be buying an electric inefficient dirty green vehicle ever. Certainly never with abusive government coercion.

[@danteramonsarnoreyes]

There is still market for EVs , not the ones that cost 100ks usd , up top of whatever the dealers want to add the stupid dealer market adjustments just more profit for then , that is why TESLA has won a lot of market share , also cost of manufacturing are high on EVs , wandering how's is that even possible for a giant manufacturer as FORD and Toyota , GM not figuring out and a new company like TESLA manages that out , there is a lot of laws against TESLAs and had to deal with complex tech and still making money on every vehicle it makes , would buy a EVs form FORD ,GM ,TOYOTA but not willing to pay extra market adjustments on top of MSRPs , on a vehicle with less range , useage than TESLAs.

[@toddschmidt206]

You can’t sell what people don’t want by by EV’s

[@chrisfox9263]

It has taken an outsider to car manufacturing like Elon Musk, who knows more about software, to make great EVs. Meanwhile traditional car makers seem lost! But Elon has shown everyone how to do it. First make a high quality, low volume sports car (gain valuable experience about how to make them). Second create a high quality, medium sales volume car (this lead to the best car ever made in the TESLA 3). The project leader needs to be an engineer focusing on making a great car, not an accountant. Ford is going to be just another Kodak and become insignificant!

[@ronaldking1054]

Yes, Tesla sales going down, which forced Musk to drop prices. Tesla is showing that the premium for electric cars has gone away.

[@chrisfox9263]

@@ronaldking1054 I think you have been reading too many main stream news articles who consistently write bad things about Tesla. In spite of what they write, TESLA continues to grow. Recent sales numbers are just a blip. EV sales have continued to grow

[@brunosmith6925]

@@ronaldking1054 Oh dear - another sucker to FUD. Firstly, it has ALWAYS been Tesla's mission to strive for better afforability (go look at their 2006 "secret master plan" which outlined this determined objective). The path to achieving this required massive investment and learning. The GOAT Tony Seba wrote in 2014 in his book "Clean Disruption" that convergence of increasingly efficient technologies, coupled with scale, would result in declining cost-curves. Seba predicted in this book (through extrapolation) that the cost per kilowatt in batteries would fall from around $9000 in 2010, to under $100 by 2023. He was right. (He also made many other predictions which panned out accurately). Also, Tesla does not exist in a vacuum. It is subject to the same macro-economics as all OEM's - indeed, as is industry and commerce in general. In a tight economy, buying power diminishes - so we are seeing a "blip" that can entirely be explained as unrelated to Tesla. Yet DEMAND for Tesla is increasing. Bear in mind that demand is associated with sales, but not directly relative to sales... IE: a huge number of people desire a Tesla (the demand) but not all are able to afford one. Now - here's where Tesla has the edge. In line with production cost-cutting and improved scaled efficiencies, Tesla is managing to reduce prices with only marginal impact on profitability. So what if profit margins are thinner in a challenging economic environment? In such times, the goal is to keep one's head above water and structure for a future up-turn. This is exactly what Tesla is doing - and in fact, is "over-achieving", as sales continue to rise in most markets, and the products continue to improve. It helps to do deep-dive research in this complex subject, rather than base an opinion on vague assumptions. Try it... you may be surprised at what it means for the truth.

[@strangerdanger8462]

​@@chrisfox9263Don't be delusional. The premium on EVs is truly gone. Demand has slowed. Depreciation on the damn things is heavy. Insurance costs in some countries is insane. It's a product the majority of customers do not want. Tesla is not safe either. Their aggressive price cuts in 2023 is proof of this.

[@acolon8999]

​@@ronaldking1054Check your sources. Tesla is on track to sell more vehicles this year than last year. Tesla sales are going up not down as you stated. The profit margins are going down but are still better than GM and Ford and they are still making money on every vehicle they sell. Let's check this post back in 5 years. Where do you see Tesla in 5 years? Better than today? Worst? Non existent?

[@waywardgeologist2520]

Shame, I was hoping the Blue Oval plant in Marshall would go ahead. Maybe Tesla can go forward with building a plant. Funny, the unions thought they won the battle but in the end of Tesla wins.

[@williamdrijver4141]

Perhaps they have no choice but to move EV production to Mexico in order to keep costs down.

[@RyoshiKuraOka]

The Ford Mach e is already made in Mexico.

[@Reh8111]

I have always thought that the car manufacturers would benefit by producing a very basic car/truck etc etc to draw in young drivers just starting out in life. I did this with a vw beetle I fitted a radio, more comfortable seats, paint job, minor engine mods and as I wasn’t earning a great deal it was affordable. Nowadays yes you get a car with all the gizmos which is fine until it starts going wrong then the costs start rising. All my sons did this and it allowed them to get into the car market without getting into the debt trap. Times have changed.

[@iworkout6912]

I bought a F150 pickup as my first purchase. Very basic, no electric windows, white, bench seat, etc. Eventually sold it to a guy I worked with and he converted it to propane. It ran for years and years, until it rusted out.

[@brucerosner3547]

It is common for buyers to claim sellers would benefit from selling cheaper product. In effect you are claiming you know their business better than they do. My own view is those that have skin in the game are more credible than those that do not. For example I watch the betting line on elections rather than the polls.

[@lowtech_1]

Fords Doomed Again !

[@brucerosner3547]

The beginning of the end of current American car manufacturers. There is plenty of capital in the US so perhaps there is room for another startup American Tesla or two. The US economy is unlike Germany's big enough (Apple alone generates 100 billion profit yearly), to tolerate the loss of auto manufacturing. But I wouldn't want to live in Michigan today.

[@litestuffllc7249]

Your accurate in your data Mr Kura but not accurate in your analysis. Major makers like VW and Ford have either ceased or paused production of EVs. Companies that did see high prices coming took major set contracts to assure supply. These companies are not seeing reduced cost as they are locked in. The general economy is down; purchases are down even for market leaders like Tesla, even they have lowered expecations even with subsidies which will lessen. Demand isn't there or set.

[@patrickshanghai2064]

they done!

[@donkeykong516]

Ford needs to partner with China NEV to make money & learn to produce economically

[@100pyatt]

#HALLELUJAH ♥️♥️♥️♥️

[@cbigclarke]

People just don’t want them.

[@dathyr1]

I don't think the big three Legacy manufactures have the facilities in place to even try to catch up to Tesla. They all want to put out very high priced luxury EV vehicles and the dealerships mark them up even more beyond the MSRP prices. So from the Legacy manufacturers there probably won't be any affordable EV vehicles in the near future, if at all. We shall see if I am right or wrong. I have my Tesla vehicle so I could care less what FORD or any of the others plan to do. Bye!!!

[@jakecease]

They keep flirting with being smart but never commit Seems like there’s to many cooks in the kitchen

[@sworks7124]

Dealerships and Union workers killed Ford. To much cost baked into the vehicle.

[@baronvonjo1929]

Again. Seeing this and the struggles other legacy automakers are having makes me wonder why so many rail against them for how they have gona about EVs. I do not blame the Japanese automakers for being cautious about EVs. They better be investing into R&D. But it doesn't seem they can really compete atm. However I wonder if being cautious will end up holding them up in the end. But we will see. There just seems way too going on.

[@MrTidx90]

Toyota is like a ninja playing poker. There’s is not a doubt in my mind, they are playing the long game. It’s in the DNA of their brand. Everybody forgets about Toyota city, the Yamaha axial engine, solid state batteries.

[@chillfluencer]

Working for Ford or GM must be a hard insult for every worker.

[@akpowarri3504]

Why? And dont Ford and GM workers have the option of resigning ? And what makes you think Ford or GM wouldn't be glad to get rid of current workers so that they can recruit non-union workers?

[@ltribley]

We NEED TO UNDERSTAND the U.S. demographics. Most families CANNOT AFFORD any of these EV's. Why do we always seem to think that $40,000 EV's are cheap. EV drivetrains are very simple, few parts compared to combustion and easy to build.

[@Seventh7Art]

GM is on the same page, canceling their promise to build 400k BEVs per year.

[@grahamrankin5557]

I can’t believe how all the big car companies have created their own stampede of providing EVs before looking at the big picture … boy have they got egg on their faces.

[@devontektsellers]

You forget all Ford evs are at a premium since there selling them at a loss of almost half the cost

[@jonmichaelgalindo]

This is so sad... The car company that started it all could cease to exist pretty soon.

[@Notme-tq4xs]

Tesla is fine. whatcha talking about ?

[@superheaton]

​@@Notme-tq4xsgm ev1 is first commercially available ev vehicle

[@OttoTheWeim]

Legacy car companies don’t die and go away. They just get bought by Indian investors and turn out an even worse product. It’s the life cycle of a car company.

[@mikedsjr]

What could oems do to make up a profit on each truck?