Ford Dealer STUMPED...REFUSES WARRANTY!! (Part 1 - Intermittent Charging System MALFUNCTION)

[@DIYDaveOK]

Lincoln is bluffing the customer out of a buyback. The "warranty clock" on most state lemon protections stops ticking on *first* incident of a problem. Saying it's "outside the three year period" is Lincoln hogwash, and worst of all is they *know* it. Infuriating. Heck of a case study, Ivan. With the dealer/mfr would be held responsible for every cent of this repair.

[@michaelslee4336]

It's NOT hard to believe they actually try this rubbish on with Mr and Mrs general public.

[@brianw8963]

That’s what I was thinking.

[@topher8634]

Sounds like they're trying to get out of it by saying the Bumper to Bumper warranty is up.

[@j.t.johnston3048]

@SteveLehto

[@eldoradony]

I would push the lemon law. After 3 years and X miles, I would like a full refund or a new car replacement regardless of Ivan's findings.

[@vpimike2646]

Your videos have convinced me that today's cars are too complicated for most mechanics. Definitely a train wreck for the industry and the consumer. 😮

[@jg7041]

Obviously too complicated for the companies that build them as well based on the repair flowchart. Too many players on the team and none of them are working together.

[@michaelgleason4791]

Gotta do everything they can to get every last little bit of mpg

[@hoaxs1939]

It’s a LIN bus circuit, single wire. Ivan did a 101 pin to pin resistance check and found an issue. Not complicated at all. The diagnostics is making this more confusing than it needs to be.

[@miscbits6399]

The "problem" is that cars are complex pieces of electronics with an engine and wheels, but car DEALERS treat them as mechanical devices and refuse to pay applicable rates for properly trained electronics/computer techs (It's a bit like airlines being incredibly complex logistics operations which happen to fly aircraft and carry passengers as a sideline)

[@everythinginfullspectrum8625]

My dad told me the same story 20 years ago and probably his father 60 years ago, "Todays cars are too complicated" Or maybe the users are too lazy to find out how the "new cars" works. and getting the tools to fix them.

[@petergondolier4088]

I had a 1990 New Yorker that every once in a while it would buck at bit then quit. It would not restart immediately. Wait 10 minutes or so it restated and may not do this again for a month, or again a day later. It was intermittent and very unpredictable. One day I borrowed my dads dodge. Drove it a few miles and the low oil pressure light came on. I knew the sensor was bad, so I stopped and removed the sensor connector and went on my way. Went about 500 feet, it started bucking then engine quit. Pulled over and re attached the oil sensor, car ran fine. And the AHA moment hit me! Got back and checked the service manual for his car. The oil sensor had 3 wires; the manual stated that if the system detected a low oil condition it would shut down the engine to protect it from damage. I checked the service manual for my New Yorker, it only had 2 wires going to the oil sensor and the service manual did not say the engine would shut down if it detected a low oil issue. Regardless, I go out my DMM and started checking both wires. The continuity of the blue wire when stressed would fluctuate like crazy. Further investigation found the wire was actually broken inside the insulation; it was not visible and looked perfectly fine. Fixed the broken wire and the problem never came back. What was happening was the wire would contact just fine, until it heated up, and vibration while driving would then break the circuit and it bucked and quit, once things cooled down, the cycle would repeat.

[@joshm3342]

Nice story, but if you knew dad's oil sensor bad, why stop & futz with the wiring when the car would still run?

[@glennchartrand5411]

​@@joshm3342 He was talking about two different vehicles. You started off with an insult and then proceeded to show how poor your reading comprehension is. Are you a bot?

[@fowlerkennel2824]

We are watching someone who understands electrical systems and how they work vs the dealership techs who blindly follow a flow chart without understanding why.

[@volvo09]

Yeah that flow chart doesn't pinpoint anything.

[@bills6093]

@@volvo09 It should also say to unplug the alternator and see if you get a grille shutter code, if they want to use the flow chart method. That would confirm or eliminate the grille shutter.

[@ATSNorthernMI]

They word the flow chart so a 5 year old can understand it. This is so they can put a tech fresh out of school on it and they can learn on the job.

[@mph5896]

How much do you think that tech got paid to flat rate that job? I would say less than an hour to do it all (minus grill shutter replacement). That includes all documentation, bringing the car back and re parking it. That is the main problem with the industry. No money, no honey.

[@scrappy7571]

@@mph5896 Exactly right!!! This is the result of flat rate pay in the toxic dealer environment. Nobody here gives a rat's azz if cars are fixed, only how many hours the tech can flag. We get intermittent problems like this one, and pray that it gets bought back. Why should I loose pay over a problem that I did not create?

[@clintprice2123]

Ivan why are you torturing me? I was just getting ready for that AHA moment and you spring the part 2 notice on the screen. The entire dealership model is deeply flawed! Fortunately there are🎉 genuine diagnosticians like you and Eric O! He is the reason I found your channel, a true win win!

[@lvsqcsl]

I would be willing to bet he's going to post part 2 tonight before we go to bed. I kept looking at the video length and we were running out of time. Sometimes when he does this we still have half the video to go.

[@samchrome-g8v]

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES

[@ikecostner1]

My Ford transit connect has essentially the same problem. I took it to the dealer several times they were not able to correct it but when I took it back to them for the third time, I had just run out of my powertrain warranty and they said they fixed the problem and that the charging system fault was because of a new problem and that new problem is outside of your warranty. By 13 miles. Of course, they have zero proof that they actually fixed it, because the light came back on the same day that I left the dealership They wanted me to pay for an alternator and they would give me the labor for free. I denied that but the charging system fault light comes on almost every single day.

[@bribbripnairbnab7301]

@@ikecostner1 Yeah, I ran into a similar issue with a local stealership. I painted my tailgate dealers name and SUCKs and posted that in my review. They finally refunded the charge of $460 to replace the mass air flow sensor that takes probably 20 minutes and I found the replacements for less than half the cost the stealership charged.

[@BillyJ57]

You nailed it Ivan. They design cars to fail. That keeps their company in business.

[@TonyRule]

'Planned obsolescence'. One of many anti-consumer tactics used by nearly all large companies today so they can sustain income streams without innovation.

[@florinsiladi9118]

Ivan… it’s Sunday and we all have time for part 2😊 Love this channel .. greetings from Romania 👌🙋‍♂️👨‍🔧🦾🍻

[@ExhaustCraft1968]

I was asked two weeks ago by a local Ford dealer if I could make an exhaust for a 7-year-old Fiesta. As Ford can not supply one for it, a guy working on his own making exhausts in stainless steel for the win here in the UK. It looks the same anywhere in the world for parts.

[@bigal6789]

UK cottage industry for the Win 👍

[@johndoyle4723]

I once had a custom made stainless exhaust for a range rover made and fitted for less than the cost of a genuine mild steel part.

[@LesReeves]

I would never go to a stealership for an exhaust plenty of muffler/exhaust shops in my area.

[@jankcitycustoms]

got me again with the cliff hanger

[@kerrylewis2581]

I'm all in and then the screen goes black... Part Two

[@braddofner]

Nooooooo! Just started watching with my coffee and muffin. Guess I get to enjoy some anticipation!

[@clintprice2123]

@@braddofnerit’s a two muffin problem, enjoy them both 😆

[@cyberbrain232001]

Dude I was just getting excited and then the cut!! What is this Rob Dahm’s channel!!

[@simonparkinson1053]

Probably won't apply in this case, but we get this on the 1.6 TI-VCT Sigma engines with or without grille shutters. The cause? Ignition interference to the LIN. Those engines have a coil pack and leads, one of the leads gets an open and you get a -100V spike on the LIN which stops Comms with the alternator. They won't charge unless the LIN is unplugged! But no misfire under load as there's so much surplus energy available! Alternators... Many times the regulator/brush pack is available from the dealer (but not Ford) However there are suppliers I use that stock the original (Bosch, Valeo, Hitachi, Mitsubishi, Visteon etc) components so that's what I change rather than the whole alternator. Example Ford Transit: OE alternator £700 Aftermarket alternator: £300 OE Reg/brush pack: £30

[@Ben-says-you-are-AWESOME]

The dealer flow chart fails because it does NOT take into account that an intermittent fault might exist. I'm sure that this is going to be another case where careful analysis of the problem, clear considered thought process and the most basic of tests will provide a 100% cure for this customers problem. Can't wait for part 2!! Cheers. Ben

[@BoweryPenguin8]

Ford/ Lincoln 4 year tech here, I deal with their electronics, software, wiring on a daily basis that flow chart is one of the worst I’ve ever seen. I have the ability to report a concern in that ppt so hopefully we can avoid this mess in the future. I only use the ppt to go as a guide you always always always have to do more testing than the ppt shows if you want an accurate diagnosis. I’ve had software burn me more than id like to admit so if a system has an update I always update it. At this point I’m suspecting a bad splice as Ive seen a million and one bad, but man if I was the tech on this car I would have taken care of the customer whatever needed to be done. If I was suspecting a bad alternator after proper basic circuit testing it would have gotten that since it’s such an intermittent concern. Eager to see what you found. Haven’t had them cars in with this concern yet. I actually got a twin of that car 8k miles but hybrid in right now with moisture in the A/C system from the factory and the all too common blue screen for the 360 camera that Ford has no permanent fix for after 4 recalls but go figure this car is not in the recalled cars for this problem🙃

[@miscbits6399]

The diagnostic procedures should _loudly_ state that the flowchart is MINIMUM requirement, not EVERYTHING to be done

[@brianw8963]

This is gonna be good! Happy Father’s Day to all the Dads. 👍👍🇺🇸

[@palamco]

Sounds like the dealer kept fobbing off the customer in the hope the fault and the customer would go away until the warranty period was over.

[@snubbelbuff1471]

How can the warranty period expire if the customer has contacted the dealer, the dealer has acknowledged the problem and has made attempts at troubleshooting the customers complaint but not been able to resolve the issue?! US and your friggin strange laws!

[@adotintheshark4848]

It says something when a customer has to contact Ivan to fix something the dealer can't or won't. Also, I'd be worried that even if Ivan fixes it which is likely, the warranty will become invalid.

[@Jpilgrim30]

Which should be grounds for a lawsuit itself. Typical slime ball auto manufacturer and dealership BS

[@billdunlop8683]

I absolutely get entrapped in these videos from Ivan, It's like reading a good mystery novel and having to leave a suspense filled page when someone comes to the door. I know I'm close to the conclusion but I need to wait . lol

[@calholli]

The ol' Monopoly flow chart road block: do not pass go and do not fix the car. :) Go straight to parts cannon jail. :) That's too funny. Your ability to show why the dealer got stuck is hilarious

[@rodx5571]

Electrical diagnostics requires a certain mindset. Someone brought me a 2004 f150, wont start, smoked wire, fuel pump relay bypass. They fail and are integrated into the fuse box. It took me about 1/2 hour to figure out, the fuse box pump relay failed (very common problem). The customer "friend" tried to bypass the relay, smoked the wire, and in the process burned up the starter (his diagnosis cranking till it burned up),fuel pump, computer and some wiring. AND already had a bad fuse box.It will cost more to fix it than it will to replace it.

[@drewv1785]

Why the dealer got stuck is hilarious and sad at the same time.

[@calholli]

@@rodx5571 You can bypass it.. Just use an external relay. Done! .. But yeah- people have to understand load ratings and wire size, etc. You definitely can't run the pump through the computer signal circuit.. lol. A cheap relay would have been the fix.. I've seen a guy take apart the chevy fuse boxes and replace the little internal relays. It's actually quite easy. I hate to see them going with internal relays. smh.. Such a shame

[@aciddiver1978]

This is why i went back to an older car.

[@johnnyblue4799]

Even 20 years old cars are full of electronics...

[@JameyPetit]

2002 Tacoma. Original alternator, starter and ac compressor. Zero issues. 2.4L simple engine. Modern manufacturers should look back and take a lesson

[@johnnyblue4799]

@@JameyPetit Toyota is also a "modern manufacturer". Do you think they still build cars using the 2002 technology?

[@najieid8407]

Hi Ivan, LIN is similar as CAN bus. The major difference between CAN and LIN is that CAN is a broadcast type of protocol, where each node can access the bus at any point in time. LIN is based on a master-slave type of communication; Where 1 Master node can communicate up to 15 slaves nodes.

[@rodneymiddleton9624]

As we have said many times that there are very few real mechanics at dealerships anymore. The few that are left are probably not compensated for their knowledge and abilities. Thanks Ivan!!!

[@VashthStampeede]

No. As a matter of fact, they are penalized for wanting to be thorough in their diagnosis. Get em in, get em out is the game plan of management. They don't care if it comes back. They'll charge again if it does.

[@alexanderzubar9593]

Luv these David vs Goliath challenges you have the Gonads to take on!!! Rooting for you all the way. BTW what a Fast one that Lincoln pulled on this guy. Talking him into “one last time “ so the buyback plan expires 🤬🤬🤬🤯. Seems that with all the documentation they have on this problem it would be a slam dunk case! Rooting for you Ivan!

[@somerandomguy3868]

Good thing the dealership didn't actually check anything or bother to think they might have accidentally found the issue

[@amunderdog]

We watch that on South Main channel. One module takes the whole system down. Really eye opening.

[@ErikTheVikingMechanic]

I've had case like this before. It was open on the LIN wire. Constantly open but would only set DTC under a specific condition. When I started and left on idle, after 1min the "Charging system malfunction" message came on. Flick throttle RPM to 1500+ message go away and says away, alternator default charging 14.4V. DTC general communication stored. When started and start driving within the minute, the charging message never comes on, alternator goes to default and no DTC set. Repaired broken wire it fixed it. Previous to that a garage replacement alternator no difference as you can imagine

[@MalcDavison]

Built-in obsolescence ......Been heading down that road for years, it works for the business, does nothing for the consumer, Saludos desde España mi amigo....Keep up the wizardry Ivan....You're da' man.

[@adrenna123]

I understand the need for the factory flow charts. The company doesn't want the dealerships to perform any other troubleshooting other than the flow charts. In doing this, they can limit the amount of unnecessary repairs and part replacement thereby reducing cost. The flow charts do work MOST of the time but they do not let nor does the company allow, any free thought during troubleshooting. The frustration comes in as the fault flow charts can never be 100% complete. It could never be, there are simply too many variables. Troubleshooting like this is called swaptronics and is all the"master technicians" are allowed to do and the flow charts tell them what to swap. Ivan is completely correct. New cars are a nightmare of wires and multiple computers. You need a degree in electrical engineering to diagnose them. Most of these You Tube channels are free thinking diagnosticians that have a good working knowledge of basic electronics which is what makes them successful. It absolutely sucks but the blame falls back to the auto manufactures and they're quest for the bottom dollar. Can you imagine the repair time at a dealer if the tech's were troubleshooting cars the complete and correct way??? How many times has Ivan found wiring problems???

[@franklincormorant8312]

You're right that it's the manufacturer causing 99% of this situation. They want "streamlined" diagnosis procedures that save them short-term money. Any technician who goes off the reservation and attempts a creative diagnosis can be burned if he makes a mistake. The first thing you'll be asked by the warranty administrator is: "Did you follow the flowchart?" Doesn't matter if the flowchart is incorrect or incomplete. It's a lot like the military: If you want to survive the system you have to follow the right procedure even if it repeatedly yields the wrong results.

[@paulkirkland1535]

Yeah you're right. Guys like Scanner Danner(Paul Danner),Ivan, Eric O and Diagnose Dan R the real deal when it comes to doing proper automotive electronics/electrical diagnosis. They R the ones I've learned so much from. Saved a ton of money and time in following their methods of repair 💪👍👍💯

[@shawnbelford3433]

Fascinating explanation and procedures. I can't believe the dealer didn't fire the alternator parts cannon! It shows that they truly don't care to know or take care of a customer. Kudos to you again Ivan for your integrity and knowledge!! Hats off to you sir!!!

[@abdulhkeem.alhadhrami]

Ivan pin pointed the exact place of the issue in seconds, nice!

[@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259]

Yes, this is the proper troubleshooting approach. Diagnose, measure, measure, measure before disturbing the connectors and harness.

[@Onewheelordeal]

Love how big companies can just take your money and lie to you with no consequences

[@galentangleborn4625]

Oh I'm having flashbacks watching this from my experience with a dealership, an $800 "chipped" alternator and the generic aftermarket $200 alternator with no chip!

[@mistsmogguru8378]

Damn the cliffhanger. Who hangs from cliffs anyway ? Suspense causes stress ! Suspended is what KZbin does to me regularly

[@henrydunbar397]

The last dealer report said they worked on the shudders (instead of shutters). No wonder it didnt fix the problem 😁 Great diag work Ivan.

[@toomanytoys]

I have this in my signature on some of the forums I participate in. “The reason I hate the technician term used at dealerships: To me, a technician uses diagnostics (either computer or paper-based) to search for a problem part and change it. A mechanic understands the mechanics and design of the parts and corrects the cause, if possible. Unfortunately, there are many dealership technicians and fewer mechanics than should be.” The system also keeps the herd in line with the warranty payment. You get paid following the procedure. Some FSEs will give an allowance for the dealership person being a mechanic (in my terms), but that's even a fight for them with the mother ship. My preference for the 'mechanic' term comes from my past associations. I knew a WW2 B-17 mechanic, and those guys had to restore planes that went through hell, repairing damage to get the aircraft to fly again and be ready for the next hell it went through, trying to bring the crew back home. I also got to meet two of my childhood heroes, both very well-known in the automotive racing arena, and they both referred to themselves as mechanics. Both never went to college, both were farm boys like myself, and both were better than most of the engineers that I worked with or engineers who worked for me in the automotive field. That's still a lemon buyback. Ford/Lincoln is just trying to avoid adding to the design and warrant the black hole they are in financially.

[@johnbeckett2624]

It's a good thing B-17 were not full of modules the way modern cars are or most of them would never have got off the ground and have certainly never made it to made it to Germany, and we would all probably be speaking a different language now.

[@2nickles647]

Thank you sir. That's what I have been say. Quit calling mechanics Technician. A Technician and a mechanic are entirely different job titles or field work. Quit blaming Dealerships.

[@bruceirvine3962]

Maybe call them useless tools of a predatory business model

[@2nickles647]

@@bruceirvine3962 maybe call them Auto mechanics.

[@GaryH-pw9cm]

I went through this on a new 07 Expedition. Had transmission problems the first day I bought it. The dealer worked on it and said it was ok. Well, it was for about 4 months and the problem started again. Again, the dealer said they fixed the problem and did for about four months. This went on and on. Finally on extended warranty the problem was solved. It was a bad valve body. Never had any problem after that. I should have demanded a new Expedition but listened to the dealer service department instead.

[@davidsprocket5141]

You are closing in on the problem! Excellent work

[@RJTC]

At first guess, it sounds like a bus fault of some sort? Something on the bus not going to sleep and causing battery drain at the same time? Edit - Or after seeing the LIN bus - just a faulty alternator. I had a brand new Ford with a faulty alternator ~30 years ago; the old system where an electric choke heater ran off a tap on the alternator windings. The choke went off far to fast & the battery was not charging properly. The local dealer kept insisting the alternator was good and there was no connection with the choke problem! Until the alternator failed completely & they had no choice but to replace it. The choke problem vanished the same day. The same place damaged the handbrake cables on one while doing the brake pads. When I complained the service guy drew me a diagram of the brakes to "prove" there was no connection. He drew a drum brake - for a car with all round discs. They are spanner jockeys, not Engineers.

[@bobhudson6659]

Ivan tested resistance in wires which were disconnected at both ends. How could it be the alternator - it was not plugged in as part of the test?

[@RJTC]

@@bobhudson6659 I posted my comment while watching at the point the wiring diagram was first shown, before any testing was done.

[@bobhudson6659]

@@RJTC So does that mean you will watch all the way through next time before commenting?

[@adam4kq]

Ivan, having worked for mainline dealers in the past, the problems with their diagnostics (as exemplified in this video and in your previous Audi saga) boils down to the way dealership technicians are trained and required to perform those diagnostics. The models and procedures for diagnostics at the dealership level are built on the warranty model, with the manufacturer paying for the diagnostics and repairs. When the manufacturer pays the bill, it is much, much cheaper for them to wing parts at problems "and check again," then it is to pay for the labour required for a real diagnostic, not to mention the training time that doing real diagnostics would require. The issue is that they don't apply a different diagnostic process when the customer is paying the bill...it's still "If you have Symptom X, replace Part Y, and then check again." But if an individual is paying the bill, it gets very, very expensive in a very short amount of time. I worked at dealerships from day one of my apprenticeship, and it wasn't until you and Eric O started your KZbin channels that I learned the right way to do diagnostics.

[@javiTests]

What I see is that the US customer protection laws are a bit rubbish or people don't know how they work. I'd think that if the car had the problem when in warranty and they haven't been able to fix it, they still need to apply the laws that would have been applied when the first problem occurred, right? If not, they trick you into delaying everything until the warranty expires and now they don't have any responsibilities. That's not right.

[@johnt.848]

I agree, if an agreement was made in that 3 year period to exchange the vehicle if the issue reoocurs, they should abide by it even if problems occur after.

[@clintprice2123]

Here in the USA it’s all about money and greed!

[@LesReeves]

@@clintprice2123 Greed the worst word in any language !!!!

[@matthewgaines10]

The problem is the customer had grounds for a buyback and didn’t execute. Never keep giving someone a chance to fix something they failed to fix before. If they didn’t get it right before, what makes you think they’ll it now under the threat of a buyback? Nothing changed.

[@rodvan-zeller6360]

ohm meter test, if it shows bad it is bad, if it shows good it means nothing. Great video.

[@gutsngorrrr]

So if they were promised by the dealer they would honour the buy back if it did it again, that's considered a contract, so they should have honoured it. Unless it was just spoken only, it's their word against yours. Typical main dealer trick, they knew they'd get away with it

[@scrappy7571]

Just trade the turd in, and be done with it.

[@adotintheshark4848]

That may depend on the state the car is located. Here; three times for the same failure then the car is declared a lemon and is replaced.

[@johnplump3760]

You are very methodical to find the resistance on these wites. Most people would not have even looked for it. "ATTABOW!!" John

[@QUIX4U]

6:25 Bought a 2nd hand 2005/2006 Mitsubishi 4wd Outlander (it has options, "lots of options", for the 2006 model and was :sold: in late 2005 - so may well be an early release of a 2006 model). Anyway the person who had owned it since it had arrived in New Zealand, (apart from dealers) - was a female teacher, who didn't drive it as a daily, but as a runaround for groceries, and for weekend drives - near Queenstown. Now that's all I know, apart from the fact that she sold what most would consider, an extremely decent car - having had barely 47K on it's clock when imported, and had just turned the dial at 80K when I bought it. I needed a new vehicle after my 18 year stint - of owning a 1996 Delica Starwagon from import in Feb 2002 to Nov 2019- when it blew 5th gear to lots of little pieces, and there being no replacement repair kits here by then, it was deemed irrepairable, and as they couldn't find any gearboxes either - it was deregistered by me as a derilect vehicle. I bought a quick buy "2007 Legnum, as a get me there, until I could find a better vehicle, so when that died of some sudden "won't go even in limp mode" when towing an empty light trailer in heavy rain at highway speeds one day, I had that (and the trailer) towed home by a local wrecker/roadside assist, who owns a fuel/garage less than a block away from me, so that was a relief. Anyways, as I had asked them if they could alow me to have a customer's courtesy car - to allow me to get to Alexandra to go buy something that I'd seen on line that night (just after we'd got home) - we drove up to the same second hand car dealership where I'd bought my beloved van over 19 years prior.That was because he's ONLY JUST advertised that he had a 2005 Mitsubisi Outlander 4wd, 7 seater with just 80K kms on it. It was at the extreme top end of our budget - but with tight money management - it was just within our price range (buying on a 3 year term with a $2k depost). Plus I had gone to high school with him and had bought the van off him all that time ago - thus was considered as a "returning cient" of value. Needless to say we had it all summer of early 2021 and through a very dry autumn, as a "weekly" (driven vehicle) between our house and that of my elderly father up in Alex, 47 km away. NO ISSUES for 5 months and then? One day, sitting where we always parked, at the end of the house beside a high wall - one morning as we were about to get "in" - to drive away ___ The battery was "so dead" - it wouldn't even unlock the doors. I had to use the emergenncy key to unlock the car, to get in and trip the bonnet release, to allow me (a registered electrician) to check why it had absolutely no "usable power" to even unlock the doors? I checked with the multimeter and saw? WHAT.!!!!!!!!!!! 5.6 volts - on the 12v battery terminals? So, I hoocked up my heavy duty charger, and we rang Dad to tell him we'd be late that morning (and why).. Then after about an hour I went out to start the car - no worries No service lights up, and with not even an alternator warning light, as the battery charger was still hookedin. I left it another half an hour, then disconnected and put away the charger, and we went up to my local Mitsi service garage (the place I'd been servicing all my owned vehicles, since the 1970's). He did a quick diagnostic check, and told me I needed to go see an auto electrician, as he didn't have anyone on his staff who could do that work. WELL..................... Herein started a long journey. They tested the battery and said, that with it's 13.8volts at rest, and with NO bad cells, that battery was A-OK. Then they told me - it had to be the alternator, as I had told them it was showing as 5.8v that morning, after having been parked the night before after a return trip to Dunedin City, the day before (a trip that takes 2hrs each way and is about 150km distance from here, thus a round trip of at least 300km). Yep - they stated I needed a replacement alternator? I queried that diagnosis as it seemed rediculous to me, that having had a seriously flat battery 1st thing that morning, and after charging it for only ONE HOUR, it was impossible for the alternator to be faulty, given that even though it started (on the charger's power supply) - it had not only stayed running all the way up to Alexandra (a journey of 47 - 50 kms by the time I'd reached them) - it had kept the DIP lights on, as that was how I drove, with NO DRL's fitted - yet it hadn't just done that, but I had switched it off, at the service garage and RESTARTED IT, direct off the battery's "journey" charge, hence there was no way it could possibly be a faulty alternator.. It's the alternator they insisted, as THAT is "the only thing" which could have drained the battery overnight.? Oh well - it was replaced under warranty (a little over $1,000 for which I had to pay $100 - as the vehicle service insurance covered faulty parts for the same 3 years that the car was "owned" by the finance company whom were officially the owner, until I had paid it in full, by which time I became it's rightful owner) Yet barely a week later - OMG 3.5v ....??????????? (about as flat as roadkill gets - after a few months). A ring to the auto electrician, telling them it had failed AGAIN - asking them to "replace" their faulty alternator - I got an immediate responce of "what?" That's impossible, it's brand new and we tested it before and after we put it in... It's flat again I said, yet you said it can't be the BRAND NEW alternator. And if it isn't THAT which caused the problem, then where is my "old one" as I don't believe that was faulty either - I said.? They sent a service person all the way down here, to check the vehicle, and then when he verified it was flat and still had the invisible ink marks they had put on it, - they had the car "transported" back to their workshop and thoroughly checked it over, before they put in a brand new battery, free of charge. If it happens again they started to say, so I finised that with, "I will take it somewhere else, as you sods don't know diddly about it".. I did a LOT of online research later that day when back home, but brought up nothing.. The missus and I then put pen to paper - and methoically went through all the obvious possibilities. And then, (myself having fault found many an intermittent industrial electricty fault situation), I looked into anything at all. Starting with - the car's talking to the key - with the wireless lock/unlock feature... b Bt as I keep the key in a sealed in, they don't chat, thus that wouldn't be the issue (or shouldn't be) so what else is next, the front door handles? That's when it hit me - we had suffered several days / weeks of RAIN. The problem ONLY came about AFTER the first winter rains had arrived. I wondered a little more, then tried something. I washed the doorhandles with a bucket of water, and watched "as the battery voltage died". Oh Buggah Me - I realised that I had found the problem. With it raining most every day with some heavy falls overnight, no wonder the battery was dead in the morning, as it had been "selecting" a relay to operate to be READY for the key to call the car - when in fact it was merely a faulty system, that allowed anything, or water contamination, to TRIGGER a "possible uplift action" to be sensed by the car - as if someone was continuously trying to open the door.????????? WOW.!!! What nasty fault. That check, (of using an ameter inline with the battery, as I washed the doorhandle) - showed just over TWO AMPS was being drawn off the battery.. Enough to drain it in a weeks worth of rain. So - don't look past door handles, in the future, as maybe a little rain has infiltrated the sensor's enough - to make a vehicle "think" that someone is about to trigger the unlock mechanism.. when it's just shorting-out, by becoming rain wet.

[@gnomiefirst9201]

Thank you for answering a question that has been kicking around in my head for 20 years. @25:17 , just disconnect the gnd bat cable so the PCM has no ground. BTW a woman went to the dealership to have a seat belt buckle installed. After she agreed to have the car looked over they sent her away with a $10k repair estimate. Later she arrived at my friend's place, he put 3.5 quarts of motor oil into her Honda. He couldn't understand how they could have sent her away 3.5 quarts low. I couldn't understand why she never checked her oil. Wah wah.

[@crisprtalk6963]

Ivan the master of the cliff hanger!

[@Fraid-Knot]

Ivan you are killing us with these cliffhangers.😂

[@lancenutter1067]

I’m surprised they didn’t replace the alternator. Seems sus. Also, awesome diag so far and good cliff hanger!

[@daveyio87]

I can't wait to see part 2. Honestly You and Eric O have made me a better diagnostic tech than any of my GM trainging has. I have seen so many errors in service procedures or they tell you to replace this part and if that doesn't fix it replace this part. But then they never have you check xyz. Just like this case. I've provided feed back and sometimes they tell me there is nothing wrong with the procedure and i'm not following diagnostics correctly. I have seen wires on new cars corroded. the copper being black... I've seen a new equinox with intermittent all wheel drive issue and it ended up being a bad wire, like several feet of wire needed to be cut out before we got clean copper. It would light a head lamp bulb but it did it rather slowly. Technical assistance sometimes is like talking to the wall. Once in a while you get someone who is experienced and can actually help. most of the time they are reading from a script. To think cars today are considered throw away with how much they cost. I think they are trying to push people to lease vs buy now days. I also blame the flat rate system. Often times we don't get paid diag under warranty to diagnose something or we get 0.3 if we are lucky we can get 1.0 on somethings but its always throwing the dice because we get paid for what ever labor op says. Techs go to work trying to beat flat rate on a daily basis so they don't take the time to diagnose vehicles. OR some how manage to pick and choose what they want to do, and the problem cars sit there until the customer gets mad and picks them up. I see that a lot. I know you would find the issue. But How long did it take you to do research, come up with a plan to do your tests? I Bet it was more than 0.3 maybe more than 1.0? This is one problem with the industry. Diagnosing vehicles takes time, Yes there are a lot of common failures but experience is something learned over time not bought.

[@sandysaab9357]

Give us part 2 - NOW!!! Can’t wait for the conclusion… Green Crusties?

[@calholli]

You know it is... It has to be. You're not getting 22 ohms through a direct wire any other way.

[@clintprice2123]

Bad weather pack?

[@JOHNSUE28]

I pray that this Case Study makes it all the way to the top of Ford Motor Company. First off, The work done is horrible. If I was the Owner of that vehicle I would be livid. Second, The Technician needs to be called on the carpet. His work product and inability to look at a wiring diagram and properly diagnose this issue is embarrassing. Ivan you are undoubtedly one of the best at what you do. I have learned and adjusted my testing techniques because of your Videos. Looking forward to Part 2. Thank You.

[@scrappy7571]

Ford don't give a rat's azz, the dealer don't, and the tech don't. What are they going to do fire him? We can't get warm bodies to work here. If this was my turd, it would have been traded in, not worth getting upset about it. Just a stupid car.

[@aciddiver1978]

Dealers dont care about the customer, period.

[@bombardier3qtrlbpsi]

For decades

[@calholli]

They just aren't that smart until they've seen these problems a lot. The car is still new. Also, most of them work flat rate-- so they have to race the clock and just get it out of there; You're gonna have some headaches with intermittent issues anyway.. There's no way around it.

[@robertsmith2956]

Shocked it didn't list Dealer Bonus: $1500 got customer to wait past deadline.

[@Andy-ms9vi]

​​@@calholliTotally. Everyone thinks dealer tecis are dumb because they don't solve these problems but they're getting like .2 to for diag on stuff like this. That's not even enough time to pull the car in and do the courtesy inspection they're required to do, let alone solve an intermittent warning light issue that happens twice a year. The tech shouldn't be required to do it for free, get it out and get some cp work in

[@billmalec]

Yes they do. They care about the customer's $$$.

[@cullenmiller8170]

Interesting case study and left us with a cliffhanger when it got really interesting. 🤣🤣

[@MrFouzi123]

You’re best Ivan and you know that😅😅😅😅

[@AP9311]

Wow, holy crap. That is too new of a car, with those intermittent problems!! That's why you're the electrical genius!! You understand ohms, resistance, flows, etc. Hell, LMC should take advice from you lol. Hahaha. Nice find. On to part 2!

[@Michael-yi4mc]

There’s the problem. “Wife loves the car “. Never fall in love with a car. Know when to dump it!

[@john7017]

Just like a bad women!

[@TonyRule]

Goes for women too.

[@AmandaHugenkiss2915]

How can you love a car that is constant problems. May be tolerable if it's a classic but not a 2021 that's nothing special

[@2nickles647]

I agree, my wife loved her GM terrible terrain. I started having problems and more problems. I cleaned out the car, drove it to the Toyota dealership and bought a Sienna van.

[@richb419]

HI Ivan, I feel that you are on the right track with your diagnosis. the problem goes away when you play with the shudder control cable indicating a bad connection in the cable. It will be truly a miracle to find this fault, also Ford should still be responsible for this car! Rich

[@gregz6418]

The issue with obsolete parts is more complicated than just the car makers. The root cause is that chip makers obsolete discreet components that make up the modules. Companies have to try to guess how many items to buy for a 5 to 7 year cycle for parts inventory. If they don't buy enough of the item or it is troublesome, they will run out early.....

[@chrisbraid2907]

The other problem is buying too many reliable parts and having stock of things that you don’t actually need …

[@baxrok2.]

Damn, I didn't want this one to end. Thanks Ivan!

[@Ottonic6]

Most people feel they can trust the dealership.. That's how it should be, but from my experience, that is far from the truth. Seems all they do is read and follow the flow chart without any knowledge of what they are working on. A lot of the time it's common sense, and unfortunately ends up turning it over to Mechanics like Ivan. It's unacceptable and they need to take responsibility.

[@ferrumignis]

Agreed, many of them are little more than parts fitters with almost no real diagnostic skills above following the flow chart.

[@G33RTJEH]

Hi, While your load test might result in a diagnostic sometimes, it won't help you diagnose a bad connector: When the signal easily is below the wetting current, you won't see a voltage drop under load, and a visual inspection of the "bad spot" might also convince you all is good. I'm glad you checked the resistance first. Depending on your Multimeter, the current draw is autoranging between a few microamps towards a milli-amp, hence not influencing the bad connection immediately.

[@paulmoffat9306]

This is the second or third case that involves a 'smart' alternator. Too bad we cannot return to the reliable 'one wire' type of the 'simple' alternator with a separate regulator.

[@major__kong]

General aviation piston aircraft are this way. In fact, the entire engine is like working on a 1960s farm tractor. Fuel injection, if the engine has it, is something akin to a glorified garden sprinkler.

[@ThePracticalMechanic]

I had a Ford Explorer with headlight issues. LIN bus initialization would fail after body shop installed new headlamp. After many hours of frustration I found water in an inline connector and a spice pack behind the grill.

[@leschortos9196]

This problem was obviously built into the vehicle since day one , so it must be a defective component or assembly ,somewhere. Even something as simple as a wire to pin crimp that only 27:24 acts up when a certain tire hits a certain size hole in the road. , you may never know. I'm confident that you'll find it Ivan. After all if you can't find it who will.???

[@chrisbraid2907]

Ok, sounds Simple, just replace the Loom 😄😃😀

[@mikebiron7339]

In fairness to the Dealership Service dept., they must follow the flow charts and service books in order to get paid for the warranty repair. If they stray too far, no pay. Dealerships are at the manufactures mercy.

[@2nickles647]

Thank you for explaining. Most people don't understand it.

[@alexanderzubar9593]

The diag trees are designed by engineers to be used by parts swappers. They may not find the problems 100% of the time but they are big enough they can bank on the odds. Thank goodness for the rest of us there are real diagnosticians like Ivan to pick up the slack.

[@timwaddell9450]

I will say this as someone who works on extremely complicated equipment. Like a car, multiple communication systems, servo drivers, robots and thousands of inputs and outputs, it takes a person with a special skill set to diagnos problems. Auto dealers have a tough time keeping these types of people. Even in our industry we have various types of people, and diag guys are very rare and hard to find.

[@Zage55]

i work at a ford dealer and boy let me tell you fords quality is literally for example trash..rear shocks leaking on broncos around 1-10k miles or even less and alot of other problems but the issue is the techs making time...techs either dont do the work or give up because the time to do the diagnoses or fix things is way low like lets say it takes 0.5 or 0.7 to find an intermittent problem thats going to fuck up the techs day because if there is no tsb or if hes inexpierenced or its a bigger problem then it is they are going to lose money based on fords time which is why alot of techs are leaving this joke of an industry

[@ekimbrough1413]

Ivan. That car has a short. Maybe when something is activated. I'd run a body resistance test to see if something in the car has unusually high ohmage. Then run a voltage / current test from the Battery- to the ground in the rear of the car,with the car on...and off. Something is either running when the car is off, or the alternator is defective!

[@robc3056]

Morning Ivan !! dealer knows nothing seems like they fobbed them off untill they wernt responsible for it thats bad almost as good as the wet belt b s it seems so called main dealers shoudnt be called that anymore

[@miketaylor7487]

Awesome find, I'm surprised that the troubleshooting flowchart didn't include a wire continuity check. So if the main computer can't talk to the alternator then the alternator shuts down.

[@charlietuten4420]

Ford tech here. Some of the workshop manual pinpoint tests are very misleading and cause situations like this all the time. Have to use common sense most of the time.

[@milantrcka121]

Now "they" not telling us... Don't you Ford fixit-folks ever bring this garbage up? This from a long-time Ford owner (260kmi Pinto and 250 kmi Explorer, both deceased, and currently 100 kmi F150 and 28 kmi Flex, just fine daily drivers. Scares me to get another one if ever.

[@lqueryvg666]

OMG - From my past days of electrical troubleshooting in vehicles, I LOVE the way these "masters" are making videos on how to REALLY do troubleshooting. Everything from ground issues to splice issues, kudos to many of these "masters" who TRUELY troubleshoot these new vehicle issues.....The BAD thing is that even if a GOOD dealership mechanic attempts to TRY to do this type of troubleshooting, the service mgrs will basically tell them to NOT waste time and just do what the book says to do.....smh.....AND the fact that these new vehicles are MADE to be disposable - sheeeesh.....I am so afraid to purchase a NEW vehicle :(

[@additudeobx]

This sounds like the definition of "STUPID". The dealership keeps trying the same repair of the same fault with the same fix hoping for a different result.

[@johnchristopherrobert1839]

If there is a fault in the wiring harness doesn’t mean that a wire is severed. The vibrations of the vehicle and operation could cause an intermediate fault between a connector or in-line resistor which could cause an error code.. remember just a little bit of added resistance, can set off an error code in the system

[@jasonwember9927]

This is a symptom of an underlying issues in the automotive repair field. The dealers can't find any good techs and the warm bodies they do have can't do nothing more than follow the flow chart. Shops and customers have mistreated the techs for so long, all of the good one have left the field and the new guys don't say in the field.

[@johnaclark1]

It isn't always that they can't. It's that Ford won't pay the dealership or the tech for going outside the flow chart. The techs can't work for free so they have to push it out and move to the next car.

[@jasonwember9927]

I use to be a ford tech. You can go outside the flow chart and still get "payed" if you know what your doing and how to write it up. But you have to know what your doing and the guys that operate at that level have left or leaving the field, because the pay isn't with the headache of it.

[@johnaclark1]

@@jasonwember9927 It's just not worth it when there are 50 more cars outside that will flag hours and make you money. It's sad...it's not that it's not fixable, it's just that it's not economically viable for the tech to spend (waste) the time on it. The one who suffers is the customer who has to find someone (and pay) that has the time and can figure out the issue.

[@scrappy7571]

truth!

[@kjc092191]

Bravo sir! We are a dying breed. Keep up the good work.

[@aciddiver1978]

Grill shutter? What the heck. What is wrong with a normal grill? Too cheap? Lasts too long? Idiocracy.

[@breezy1849]

Grill shutter sits behind the grill and blocks off part of the radiator to cause the engine to get to operating temp quicker.

[@g0fvt]

It is an ECO feature, better aerodynamics with blocked off grille, plus helps with warm up time.

[@horatiop818]

You can thank your govt for stringent emissions/fuel consumption regulations imposed on manuf: this in turn forces them into all sorts of compromises/contraptions...just as this grill shutter. The shutter helps the aerodynamics of the car, hence improved mpg. It could also help with lowering emissions, as it speeds up/controls the warming up of the engine and a faster catalytic light up.

[@JOHNSUE28]

@@breezy1849 All about getting the Engine into "Closed Loop" ASAP.

[@JD-gb3dr]

Samcrac had a lemon law Lincoln with an odd intermittent issue…I believe the issue was a wire not being seated properly in a connector or something along those lines.

[@zbigniewrichard8291]

Dealerships hire technicians who know how to change parts fast. Not diagnosticians, because the main part of the profit comes from the parts changed. You will never find a good diagnostician at a dealership. Two reasons for that. One: they don't have the knowledge, and if they start having, they will resign and start their own business. Two: there is not enough time to do thorough diagnoses, tests, and try repairs. That is why dealerships will always be stealerships.

[@maxkendal5152]

Without reading the comments, I'll bet this is the first time we agree the car should go to al lawyer not PHAD. still a fascinating study. Thanks Ivan

[@CedroCron]

Time to start buying a Classic cars or building kit-cars with Holley Fuel Injection kits... Way easier to keep on the road than this mess!

[@calholli]

Absolutely not.. the fuel we use now makes it a nightmare. I'm tired of cleaning carbs. lol.. I'll be buying a fuel injected mower as soon as I can

[@marcokahny709]

Just buy a car that has a cigarette lighter and no can bus and you should be good to go 😛

[@oldbiker9739]

Ill by American cars and trucks right up to 2006 ,then they become stupid with computers and modules on wheels and with there DOD and cylinder deactivation lifters and computerized charging systems problems. I still drive my 1991 GMC 1500 on propane , I just changed the valve stem seals and the alternator found the alt brgs were turning roughly at 270,000 on the old girl , she's a keeper .

[@marcokahny709]

@@oldbiker9739 Yeah I have a 97 GMC Sierra 5.7 ext cab 8ft bed best work truck ever made

[@2nickles647]

Yes. I am in process of rebuilding my old 68 truck. Manual clutch. Very basic stuff.

[@dporrasxtremeLS3]

Never Ever, Ever buy a ford! Once again... Never Ever buy a ford!!! Ever! Thank you for Proving this, Ivan! ford proves this! ford V/6 engines ? How about out of warranty water pump repair for just a measly $3,200. Just a water pump??? Never Ever!

[@mistsmogguru8378]

Lemon law would apply for this

[@ChrisWilliams-pu8pj]

Great job Ivan. Looking forward to part II.

[@mrblonde2013]

Cliffhanger!!!

[@rogerghiardi7723]

Lol, everybody wants part two, we love your channel.

[@nomad57-u3x]

if warranty was refused and its a legit warranty call a lawyer and begin a class action federal lawsuit against them...

[@scrappy7571]

A "federal" lawsuit? Must be important.

[@teddekkerfan92]

I know it's on the can bus, but why does the active grill shutter affect the alternator, shouldn't the shutter be in the cooling group, not the charging group, Is it due to wire routing? Or does the alternator need cooling when under full load?

[@joshuapruden6497]

Wow this one is a cliffhanger for sure. I cant wait for part 2. That black screen reminds me of the last episode of The Sopranos....WhAt HaPpeNeD. No WaY! lol

[@jeffmiller6100]

I believe now that I have made finding a bad connection once by applying current on a suspect circuit. Great vid I am sure the part two vid will even better ❤

[@petermccoll469]

Great diagnoses. very methodical. perfect approach

[@dri50]

We just received a letter from Ford on our 2021 Bronco Sport regarding an issue where the battery goes dead and car stalls. We have to take the vehicle back to the Dealer and have the BCM and PCM software updated. This is a Safety Recall. We have seen this problem with our Bronco Sport with the 2.0 EcoBoost engine.

[@Iambigus]

Noooooo! You stopped ep1 just as it was getting good. Good video....

[@MrOverstuffedcow]

Great video Ivan. However, curiosity sent me down the rabbit hole of looking into how a LIN bus works and how it works on Ford's. This is why I didn't work on cars anymore. If you want something to break all the time, add another computer to it.

[@hommie789]

Had a problem just like this on a mobile crane and it turned out to be a connector, the pin in the connector was not pushed in far enough to lock and would make contact for a while and then just stop and code out. Sometimes it would go months without issue then others it would code multiple times a day. Others condemned the alternator two times but when I dug into it found that pin out about half way back to the battery bank from the alternator, about 15', was feeling good about myself that day.

[@JimmyMakingitwork]

If only dealerships hired and trained the best drivability techs they could find. Then had them troubleshoot these cars with a strategy to help with their success while being well paid to do so. Dealer book time is probably something like: Diag .8 Software update .3 Document repairs or repair is not reimbursed. Glad a real drivability tech not relying on low flat rate pay is on it Ivan!

[@ncsarola]

This is a classic example of societies problems at large. Everyone wants to be told what to do and not think for themselves. Obviously logic and curiosity are out the window! Great job again Ivan, as always. Common sense not so common anymore, too much group think, not enough personal responsibility and pride.

[@SandCrabNews]

I had a "high resistance short to ground" educate me on a Navy aircraft fuel quantity system. Look for corrosion at Ground Terminals. I also found cold solder joints on a Nissan heater fan resister.

[@salg8878]

In my opinion. Manufacturers develop these flow charts and techs must follow exactly for them to be reimbursed. If they deviate then Manufacturers probably puts them on The hook for the bill. Right to repair must be passed with no limits.

[@jonatday]

This I why I always say to my friends always ask the mechanics/dealers to give you your old parts that they may replace, it's amazing the excuses you hear why this hardly ever happens.......😮

[@williamwhitehead8362]

Sounds like to me it’s the charging system and the computer in a ground capacity is not seeing the ground. This is way forward piece of junk all of anyway they run they make the computer do the regulating of the charging and if they don’t have a bad good ground Battery charge alternator turn on bad bad bad bad bad sister. You need to get rid of that idea. Keep up the good work Ivan.

[@flatdaddio]

Very cool video. I don't understand why people overlook wire integrity.