Forensic Lock Disassembly

[@mattfleming86]

When are you going to do the counter-forensics class? The arms race must chooch on!

[@curtishoffmann6956]

Forensics: "It's dead, Jim!" Kirk: "I noticed that part, Bones. What killed it?" Forensics: "Damn it, Jim, I'm a paid actor, not a coroner!"

[@Arachnoid_of_the_underverse]

"Damn it, Jim, I'm a paid actor, not a red team member!" ( No red shirts were worn during the making of this comment)

[@curtishoffmann6956]

@@Arachnoid_of_the_underverse Yeah, when you have those two, red team is a bad place to be.

[@Ghauster]

@@curtishoffmann6956 unless your name is Scotty.

[@Codex_of_Wisdom]

To be fair with the plastic, ~80% of the plastics in the ocean are fishing nets from offshore fishing companies. So a few bags is nothing compared to that.

[@DarkArtsLockPicking]

A favourite method of locksmiths is rear shimming like that with the use of a blank.

[@DarkArtsLockPicking]

Only time I have trouble with this method is when the lock uses security pins such as serrated pins.

[@ChristopherHallett]

You're halfway there? Whoa-oh, livin' on a prayer!

[@RocketCityGardener]

What about orientation of the key pins? Is it obvious looking at the pin close-up or under a microscope?

[@matthewellisor5835]

Ugggh, I had a job that demanded every piece of evidence be individually placed in a gallon-sized bag (as if my testimony was insufficient.) One item was the broken oak door and they decided to tape an evidence bag to the face of it!

[@DeviantOllam]

Amazing

[@wobblysauce]

See bag attached

[@J.C...]

🤣

[@antoy384]

Blackhats: Let’s break something bigger just to make the defense more funny.

[@erikhaw7313]

Can't wait to see part 2, at my work, we mostly use manilla envelopes, or make little bundles, but there is a rule, evidence preservation is of key importance.

[@joblessalex]

I wanna see part 2. Also include the one pin cylinder that way we can see if he picked the first one. Lol

[@DeviantOllam]

I filmed an examination of this first lock but I could also take apart the number one and we can see. :-)

Yes, a (blind) comparison of picked and unpicked lock would be a great addition!

[@OneNvrKnoz]

I’d love to see a video showing the difference between usual wear of pins versus what wear looks like on an attacked lock. Does bumping look different than SPP?

[@DeviantOllam]

I could try to put something like this together for you

[@MarvinCZ]

I remember there's a talk on KZbin showing exactly that. Of course it wouldn't hurt to get an update :) Ah, here it is: kzbin.info/www/bejne/d4e9q3WggJaeo6s

[@samcalder6946]

Dev did a relevant series a while back... kzbin.info/www/bejne/aIqpiGOknZybaas

[@lollubrick]

THE LIPSTICK TOOL HAS A METAL CHAIN ON IT!!! METAL!!! LAWYERS!!!

[@richardthorpe8889]

Really great video déviant . I kind of expected you to sent it back to him like that. lol. I never realized how cataloging that kind of thing as evidence could be. Thanks

[@meh.7539]

I think it's because you're so passionate that every video you make is always fascinating to me. Thanks for making this.

[@DeviantOllam]

Thank you for enjoying!

[@ThomasGabrielsen]

I really looking forward to the second part. I wasn't aware that you took on this type of assignment and I have never seen it before.

[@lostboytnt1]

Query: Would the shim potentially, or actually leave a mark on the pins as well, since they're metal sliding along an edge? Obviously this would only be in the case where the actual key wasn't used instead. Would that have to be forensically noted as well?

[@jonathanshaw6784]

I expect the shim would leave marks on the side of the key pins and bottom of the driver pins, while picking would mark the bottom of the key pins. (Not an expert)

[@J.C...]

@@jonathanshaw6784 exactly

[@idkidk4334]

Lol the mess of bags if it was a heavily mastered Schlage primus system and multiple cylinders are being investigated. around 45 bags/cylinder

[@Christian-cz9bu]

I got you covered for the plastics, when the storm clears this weekend, I'll be doing my usual plastic pickup at the beach, I'll fill a bag on your behalf.

[@JohnTruempy]

As your last instructor in this topic I did see 3 mistakes that could bite you on cross and 1 that could get you a Daubert challenge. But for the most part good job.

[@DeviantOllam]

Hey, John! I would absolutely love to hear those details... Fill us all in? 😁👍

[@JohnTruempy]

@@DeviantOllam As your teacher I cant give you the answers LOL but lets work it through. What was the change between Daubert Vs Frye? That should give you a clue. Also did you forget LIST? Was the evidence sealed against tampering? And what do you need before any destructive testing? But again seriously your doing a great job but after 30+ years doing it I just nitpic. Also as I told you that is what I have moved on to because? "If you can't discredit the evidence" what do you do? You heard that how many times in class?

[@chrisrowarth4874]

Very educational, thank you! Watching your videos always gives me ideas of things I'd like to add to my tool kit, whether I make them myself or buy them.

[@MedusalObligation]

There are parchment paper bags that could be used if you were actually worried about plastic. We use them for watch parts, hand tied flies and miniature screws.

[@sanjaraejour9632]

This was fascinating to watch. Looking forward to the follow up on it.

[@Gunbudder]

could you use a lishi tool that has a HDPE pick? or maybe teflon? i have to imagine there is a plastic hard enough to lift pins but how so hard that it will leave tool marks on the pins

[@DeviantOllam]

it's been tried... material transfer winds up taking place, with small fibers of teflon being left in the lock

[@Gunbudder]

@@DeviantOllam that makes sense. you never know when the newbie suggestion comes up with something useful though lol

[@WRWhizard]

I am insatiably learning this stuff. So watching your technique for getting that shim in there is gold in my brain.

[@uberubermensch]

This made so much sense and I have cataloged into memory, even though I have never picked a lock. But I will inevitably recall this later in life because it has been archived in memory.

[@Junk_Yard_Dog]

Good work yet again

[@OaklynHall]

Thank you for sharing this interesting and educational video. If "metal" should not be used in the disassembly process should the "shim" used during the disassembly of the lock be made of plastic too? If this was a real crime investigation surely the forensic analyst would/could have access to a real key that actually opens the lock so there would be no need to use a shim? How about using a very small fibre optic probe to examine/photograph the inside of the lock before even attempting disassembly to check to see if the pins have been marked through picking?

[@morrisonghost3348]

I am highly interested in forensics so this video was right up my ally, thank you thank you thank you!

[@mattfleming86]

Would it be advantageous, in situations where it could be applicable, to use a longer blank and cut a shallower slope on the front for blank key shimming? Seems that it would give you more wiggle room on the key to find the sweet spot.

[@DeviantOllam]

we do that with our Kwikset disassembly key. the long part across the top is cut all to a "1" depth (the smallest cut in Kwikset land) and the front edge has a more rounded graceful curve

[@mattfleming86]

@@DeviantOllam I feel validated 😁

[@MarvinCZ]

IMO (not an expert at all) if you're using a longer blank, you need to be careful not to impact the back of the lock (the cam) because that's also a place where you can find evidence.

[@DeviantOllam]

@@MarvinCZ absolutely correct, at least on locks that have tail cams on them like that.

[@andrews4321]

I'm really glad to hear that Deviant's eyes are doing better. For a future video, I'm curious to see / hear about the different markings that could be made by picking a lock as opposed to running a key through it.

[@alaricsnellpym]

A label printer hooked up to a computer so you enter job details once, and just describe each bag to print the label, would save a whole lot of time. Especially if it put a QR code with a unique serial number plus the same data on every sticker, and spat out a CSV file with a record per label with all the data and the serial number for integration with evidence cataloguing software...

[@TheColonelSponsz]

One of the classic differences between professionals and amateurs on display here: pros spend a lot of time on doing basic things to a repeatably high standard.

[@DeviantOllam]

I've got you convinced that I'm something of a pro? I am good at social engineering, aren't i? :-)

[@TheColonelSponsz]

@@DeviantOllam You do play a professional on TV ;-)

[@foogod4237]

The plastic use is unfortunate, but it's worth keeping in mind that compared to so many many other parts of our lives, the amount of materials actually used every day on this sort of thing seem large in the moment, but are really pretty small in the big picture of things. Forensic evidence bags are really not producing the vast majority of the plastic waste in the world today, and considering that it can sometimes mean the difference between letting a guilty person go free, or ruining an innocent person's life forever, some things are arguably worth the cost in the end. The medical industry is the same way (and in far higher volume). So many medical things are single-use plastic, and produce tons and tons of (usually not even recyclable) waste. The problem is, though, that when you're dealing with people's health/lives, and infectious diseases, etc, sometimes there just isn't any other way to do things that is actually going to produce the necessary level of safety and results, and the quality of those results really do matter. So you just have to suck it up and do it the "wasteful" way anyway (and just do your best not to not make it any worse than it really has to be).

[@peterzenner2020]

When I worked in Boulder CO, the police investigating Jon Benet Ramsey had the locks examined by a local locksmith, Buffalo Lock & Key.

[@iggymac3473]

nice can't wait to see the next video thanks bro

[@peter_smyth]

For the part achiving, has anybody looked at using some kind of tray with separate wells for each pin or spring? Something like a 96-well plate from a biology lab, along with a clear adhesive film to cover the top. You can then attach one label for the whole lock, with the parts in order.

[@USN_CB_not_BC]

Do serrated pins make rear shimming attacks more difficult?

[@DeviantOllam]

you know, that's a GOOD question! i bet they might. i should test this

[@katelights]

@@DeviantOllam serrated key pins so the shim keeps catching as the stack lowers.

[@DeviantOllam]

@@katelights that would definitely slow the process down potentially but wouldn't ultimately prevent it. Could be a fun video for me to try later, however. :-)

[@ericstocker6902]

If you want to save money on shims, grab a anti-theft device out of a DVD package rip it open and there's two usable shims.

[@DeviantOllam]

Totally! We do this in class

[@boostfrog]

But... I havent bought a DVD in like a decade, it'd be easier to just buy the shims these days lmao

[@Oberkaptain]

Neat video, wish you would do more on the forensics side of things.

[@pcflynn1]

This was great loved it all

[@didnotwantthis]

I wonder if this might be a good use case for a 3D printed blank.

[@Veptis]

Is it possible to prepare a lock to be much more difficult to forensically deconstruct? I am thinking about hidden springs, multiple pins, washers etc? Like some anti temper seal or similar?

[@punksci6879]

lol I got up to pour a coffee just as you started to bag them up and had to walk back across the room to check the video hadn't crashed or paused.

[@Senetus]

Next task, decode the key from the distance between the lines 😄

[@TommyOC_One]

Just wanted to say thank you and help out with the algorithm. Also, I learned a few things!

[@DeviantOllam]

Awesome, thank you!

[@Lupinicus1664]

Having watched the video linked by MarvinCZ I was wondering if it is possible/desirable to coat picking tools in a less abrasive material to 'fool' forensic examination of a lock and mask any picking attempts/successes?

[@TesserId]

I'm such an LED flashlight freak that I'm gonna spend some time thinking if there might be something to kick that "light-pipe" follower up a level.

[@SeanBZA]

Machine one with a thin wall barrel, with a LED embedded in the light pipe, straw had white most likely, then one lead inside as contact, and the other going up the side. A sleeve to insulate it, and then 3 small button alkaline cells as power, with a threaded cap that is both the switch, contacting the button cells and the cut off lead. Cap just needs a spring and a 2200R SMD resistor in it to act as current limiting for the LED, so that it is not too bright to blind you, and thus will last a long time.

[@TesserId]

@@SeanBZA Much like my own thinking. Definitely need to limit the brightness.

[@tin2001]

@@SeanBZA You could probably just 3D print a tube adaptor that friction fits the follower into a common cheap LED flashlight (like the ones you get free from companies that think pens with their name are a bit boring).

[@Dleihs]

Why not make a pinning try that has a labeled slot for everything and can be sealed? Make the tray the evidence bag, it would be reusable and only need one evidence sticker.

[@acidhelm]

Defense lawyers would have a field day with that. How do you prove that the lock parts in there now aren't contaminated with evidence from the previous lock's parts?

[@DeviantOllam]

indeed... not to mention that it the lid fails or something, there goes everything. we do have little "bumps" on our pinning trays' corners, you might have seen... they can snap together with other trays to do what you're describing. But that's more for commercial work, not evidentiary work.

[@Dleihs]

@@DeviantOllam I'm talking about a new design of tray specifically for lock evidence. The problems can be engineered out and administrative rules could be used for cross contamination. The same argument could be made for plastic bags; what was in them before? Is there proof it was empty before pins were placed inside?

[@MarvinCZ]

@@Dleihs The problem with a tray is that if it gets bumped when open, everything gets jumbled. And it won't just be placed there and sealed. All the individual parts are going to be taken out repeatedly and investigated separately. All that manipulation is more chance for something to get misplaced. It's also limiting since you can't take just one part somewhere else and go investigate it, since they're all bundled in one container.

[@ceefusjenkins2281]

Is the 'lipstick tool' STL publicly available?

[@Arachnoid_of_the_underverse]

Looking at your methodology Im thinking maybe a see through straw sealed at both ends would allow you to allocate one bag per set of pins and springs.

[@Ghauster]

I did enjoy this video. I've not tried lock picking since I was a kid but they still are fascinating. Seeing how to get one apart from the rear is interesting and with the mechanically inclined mind I have. I knew where you were going with the blank key. I agree with the comment below in that I too would like to see what difference there is between a normally used lock and one that's been picked. Should you have removed your ring as well?

[@seeigecannon]

Instead of a steel strip for separating the pins, could you use a sheet of PEEK? I wouldn't be surprised if that strip you are using is hardened, but PEEK might be hard enough to still work while being a lot softer than brass or any color coatings on pins. I found one site selling it as thin as 0.00048".

[@DeviantOllam]

I would be interested in trying that, yeah

[@katelights]

Seems like you could save some time by having a label sheet that has pre-printed names for all the common lock parts.

[@team_danacleveland]

Wouldn't the metal blank potentially leave false forensics marks?

[@anonymoos]

And also, the metal shim scraping on the pins?

[@LeonardRoberts]

​@Johan Greefkes the marks would be along the sides of the pins, when looking for picking evidence you would be looking at the tip of the key pins for unusual markings. So long as there is only one mark along the side it could be discounted

[@acidhelm]

Dev said that you are allowed to use those metal tools, but didn't say why. I'd like to know, too.

[@LeonardRoberts]

@@acidhelm the exact reason I don't know, can only speculate that made those concessions because no non-metal option is available or was available when those concessions were made.

[@shura0107]

It's known and accepted that a key (and thus a blank) leaves distinctly different marks on the key pins than a pick does. Thus using a key blank will wear the pins just like a regular key and will not contaminate evidence of picking.

[@Ghost_Os]

Out of curiousity, do you sell the stickers? Or a ready-to-go label template?

[@LeonardRoberts]

I believe he said the labels are available on the website

[@Ghost_Os]

@@LeonardRoberts I'll have to listen to the last few minutes again. Kept having notifications come through and drown him out. Thanks 👍

[@DeviantOllam]

yeah, they're on the site I don't like to mention because i feel like a corporate shill. ;-)

[@Durrdalus]

As a dumb outside observer I'm just curious, is "The labels remove cleanly and easily" a joke? Wouldn't you want the evidence stickers to be pre-cut to break into multiple bits and leave a whole lot of residue behind to limit possible tampering?

[@SeanBZA]

Evidence stickers typically have a glue that is very aggressive in bonding to PVC of the bags, so it will not come off easily, and it is more there to mark the bag, and not come off, as attempting to peel them is going to leave a mark, and they are common enough that you can just use another and bag. The true tamper protection is the writing and a signature of the person collecting the information, as that normally is unique.

[@DeviantOllam]

These are organizing labels, not tamper-resistant labels. The teeny 2"x3" baggies would never be used as evidence preservation bags *by themselves* and so they would always be kept inside of a proper tamper-evident bag overall

[@colinstu]

lawyers gonna complain about the metal shim?

[@dragade101]

Why not having evidence boxes/jars. If evidence can be opened to be inspected, some small jars with screw lids could be used for lock disassembly. Its clear and makes it easier to label (having numbers on top but also a printed label on the side)

[@glennmassanova5671]

More words of wisdom.

[@maxmyzer9172]

we can get the bags smaller, but..

[@donwald3436]

Isn't it bad for evidence tag labels to be easily removable?

[@VirtualJMills]

Missing: Orientation of each pin. Vis., semi-symmetric pins, tool marks.

[@jmr]

I want to see the follow up and I enjoyed this video but... I don't think I want that exact job. Seems like one of the least fun part of your job and I'm including the paperwork. 😆

[@Crftbt]

Left handed?

[@DeviantOllam]

👋

[@mikebeatstsb7030]

I bet James Bond doesn't have to do all that tedious labeling and bagging up

[@MarvinCZ]

Then the evidence gets to a coutroom like a certain SC one, where lawyers on both sides handle it, take it out of the bags, drop it on the floor (and in the case of lock components probably lose some of it 😆)

[@jeffbrownstain]

What happens to evidence that's served its purpose and is no longer needed? Never actually learned that one.

[@DeviantOllam]

Most institutions and government agencies have a written retention policy.

[@hannahranga]

The no metal thing is annoying, I get a defence lawyer tossing it out to cloud the expert/evidence but damn that does assume a stupid expert that's tampering with the evidence. Surely anyone with a clue tampering with evidence is going to be super careful to not leave any hints compared to someone having a brain fart and leaving metal tools on their desk.

[@hoppskippity]

👍

[@feynthefallen]

Maybe instead of using so much plastic, we could fix our bean-counting legal system. You know, bring a few of the worst lawyers to heel.

[@toboterxp8155]

I mean, there really isn't any way to avoid being thorough. And if that means bags over bags of stuff, so be it. Better than compromising an important bit of evidence.

[@MarvinCZ]

It's not really a problem with the lawyer. It's really important that evidence is collected well and not being tainted. Bad evidence leads to bad court trials and even innocent people ending up incarcerated. In fact many wrongful convictions are the result of shoddy evidence gathering.

[@pitterpatter7719]

I’m divorced too

[@feynthefallen]

You all make good points, but the real reason why we are so neurotic about evidence and custody trails and whatnot is that the lawyers out there will use any excuse to find fault in evidence, like "There's a metal tool in the shot". If lawyers wouldn't routinely get away with the most hare-brained schemes, we wouldn't need to be quite so neurotic. We would still need to be thorough, after all, legal action often ends in dire consequences for the defendant if found guilty, but we wouldn't need to worry so much about a lawyer tearing a case down on a ridiculous technicality.

[@MarvinCZ]

​@@feynthefallen The reason why defense lawyers are hard on evidence is that prosecution will try to produce absolutely anything and call it damning evidence if they can get away with it. The trouble in this case isn't that "there is a metal tool!" but rather that using a metal tool in this task can leave marks of its own and produce false results.