The Problem With Wintersun's "Time II"

[@CloudMountainJuror]

I really like that it doesn’t sound like any other album I’ve heard before. It sounds mythical. And the “artifical” aesthetic I feel is part of its identity - a real orchestra, in this case, I think would actually clash with what’s envisioned. It’s supposed to sound unreal, otherworldly, and I enjoy that about it a lot. Same with Time I. It’s that intentional artificiality that makes me feel like the drum sound, while not *ideal*, is at least acceptable and consistent with the rest of the vision. It took me off guard, but I’ve been getting a lot more used to it, and I personally hesitate to even call it bad. On Storm in particular I think it works super well. And honestly, from the fan remixes I’ve heard so far, decreasing the drum volume doesn’t really help. If anything it sounds less effective - I think around this volume for this drum sound is the optimal choice. If the volume needed to be decreased, then a different drum sound entirely would be needed. Which, probably would be most preferable, but again, I still think what we have is fine and at least consistent. Also, Fields of Snow, Ominous Clouds, the Storm intro/outro, and the Silver Leaves intro/outro are a big part of what make the Time albums stand out to me - they’re very patient. They want you to sink into the moment. I respect Jari a lot for keeping the album’s pacing so deliberate.

[@forgemastermetal]

Thanks for your comprehensive comment!

[@THAMNOS]

I'm the complete opposite when it comes to the Orchestrations. I fell in love with Time I because of the orchestrations, so this is the main point that I love about Wintersun. The Time Package is also not that 'overpriced' considering you got Time II, but also Time I 2.0, and hundreds of older Wintersun demos. Not to mention all the different versions. I myself haven't bought the package because I'm broke, but I definitely would. Yes, the album took many years to make, but your point that 'they should hire a mixing engineer' and 'they should hire a real orchestra' isn't as clear cut as you may think. Jari said multiple times already that he always produced music at home, and that he always preferred to work on his music alone, and make the sound EXACTLY how he imagined it to sound. That's why it took him so long - he was trying to get it to sound how he had it in his mind. That doesn't mean that this sound will fit everyone else's taste. He clearly makes music for himself and for his own enjoyment, which is something I admire honestly. When it comes to the orchestra - Jari, again, said multiple times that he is not very wealthy, and that the money they got from the Forest Seasons package, and Time Package were mostly spent on the new studio and on taxes. You overestimate how much money they make in the end, especially when Jari is doing most of the work himself, and other band members are pretty much just session musicians, he just cannot spend his money on orchestras, because he obviously has different priorities. And all of that I can honestly understand 100% because I am like that myself. As a solo musician, who has been raised quite poor, all money I earn I try to spend on either something I can profit off of in the long run, that I need, or something that I am very passionate about, that I know will benefit me or make myself happy. If it's something that can be replaced with something I can do myself (like the orchestra for example) I honestly prefer to perfect my own skills and learn to make 'realistic sounding orchestras', instead of spending money on a real orchestra, that in the end will maybe sound just a bit more realistic. I always calculate if it is worth it or not, and I bet Jari is like that too. Periphery started as a bedroom project, but it evolved into a big and very successful band, so they can afford orchestras. Wintersun on the other hand is a project of a bedroom musician, although successful, it still has the same bedroom musician vibe, just on a bigger scale. Jari is just an introverted geek who likes to sit in his cave and make music the way he wants to make music, and I don't think he wants to change that. I could write about it a lot because I have a very similar mindset and experiences to him, but it is already a long comment, so I will leave it at that.

[@forgemastermetal]

I’m fairly certain Wintersun is more successful than Periphery on the music front. The cost to hire an orchestra for recording is around 20k for a day (which is plenty of time to record the music on Time II). A price that’s an order of magnitude lower than the revenue generated by the multiple crowdfunding campaigns the band has run. If you’re going to claim yourself a musician doing this “epic” and “masterful” level things - you should be doing epic and masterful things. Like hiring an orchestra, hiring a killer production team, etc. Otherwise, it’s just another product of a bedroom band in disguise.

[@ZtlaMusic]

@@forgemastermetal I hope you are aware that if you hire an orchestra for a day to record an entire album this doesn't include any time for the musicians to practice the material. This puts clear restrictions on what you can or cannot write for the orchestra to perform. Now Jari could of course only write idiomatic material that professional musicians could perform without needing to prepare much, but do you think that is the case on the Time albums? It takes one really tricky passage to wreck that plan, and the last time I checked the guy was not crazy about making compromises with his music :D. Additionally, there is a choir (possibly several types of) on the album at times as well as solistic eastern instruments like erhu and koto. For reference, the Nightwish albums with an orchestra on them have consistently been the most expensive albums ever made in Finland. Dark passion play iirc cost around half a million euros (700k+ when adjusted for inflation). The orchestra on Periphery's tracks like Reptile is obviously *much smaller* than would be needed for Time (it's also layered with programmed instruments iirc), and there's much less runtime with an orchestra present on any periphery album. The material Misha writes for orchestra seems to also be quite simple based on what I can remember. Obviously the crowdfundings made a crapload of money but it seems Jari wants to spend that money on towards the studio dream of his, so blowing a sizeable chunk (or even all of it) on recording a symphonic orchestra+choir for both Times (no way he'd just do one lolol) sounds a bit silly. I'm not here to object to any of your other points or to hate on the video but I feel like you're oversimplifying the cost of getting a large orchestra to play almost the entire runtime of a 40min prog-ish metal album (x2). If it was 20k to get an orchestra for your album, regardless of the material, way more bands would do it.

[@Zyborggian]

@@ZtlaMusic Dude you obliterated him stop stop he's already dead lmao Its so funny to see someone who doesn't even like orchestrations act like he knows what is and isnt ideomatic and what the budget would be for it. You pretty much said everything I would have replied with but WAY better (and I probably would have had a harder time being nice lmao) This is unfortunately the hangup for the third Noneuclid album which has REALLY challenging to play but still possible live orchestrations for the 20+ min track but no budget to rerecord the orchestra because they fucked up the only performance they were able to get of it with the budget the first time (not enough time to rehearse the piece to perfection) Saddening tbh because Flo thinks its his greatest piece and he's never been able to hear it come to life properly :(

[@Zyborggian]

@@ZtlaMusic Also you used the word idiomatic which makes me assume you're classically trained maybe in which case fuckin based/same (but if not thats fine too :) )

[@yariskills]

I believe that if it was released, in full, around 3 or 4 years after the self titled, it would have been received insanely well.

[@forgemastermetal]

And I feel like I would've enjoyed it more than versus now, mainly because the album, in context is underwhelming among its peers.

[@enferex]

Thanks for doing this follow-up. I've not yet checked out the new release, but I'm curious. If the Time package contains the raw tracks (I'm not sure if it does), I'm curious if fans will end up making their own mixes.

[@Hellenicheavymetal]

Maybe i'm just not really that picky. If the songs are written well everything else kinda slides for me. Although I would like it more if there are less flaws of course and long intro matters not at all for me. It can be 10 minutes long for all I care. If the album is 2 hours long. I'm not complaining if it's a well written album.

[@forgemastermetal]

Hey, we appreciate you sharing that because you're not the only one. The self-titled will always be our favorite.

[@Hellenicheavymetal]

@@forgemastermetal yeah that's a classic right there.

[@Zyborggian]

I could say a lot about this video but Ill just say this. Yall nailed it with the whole "He needs a team, he insists on doing everything by himself" thing That's because he literally, mentally, is INCAPABLE of delegating tasks to others. He has textbook OCPD. Obsession with perfectionism and fine tuning and never completing tasks easily and insistence on doing everything himself. Im pretty sure he blocked me cos I kept telling people this. Literally go to the wiki article on the disorder. It PERFECTLY describes him in every way. Literally doesn't take a psych to see he obviously has it. Its literally negatively impacting those around him, thats how mental disorders are classified in the first place. Look as someone who has bipolar but got help and stays on his meds I pretty much have zero tolerance for people who act like their shortcomings are a GODDAMN VIRTUE.

[@klasrask7393]

Well, I can't say that I agree with the two of you. The whole "I don't like" argument is in the end(as always) a very personal statement and don't make it universal truths ✌️

[@forgemastermetal]

Absolutely!! If no one catches it, we will ultimately admit in the video that we're just two dorks on the internet with stinky opinions. We wish Jari and his team the best and we hope those that enjoy it do so for years to come.

[@klasrask7393]

@@forgemastermetalopinions is a dangerous thing in the triggered world we live in.. I will say that Jari probably gave the album a difficult start by getting the hype surrounding the release so massive. Fans doing the first listen more as critics rather than just fans. But what I know... I am enjoying the**** out of it atleast ✌️🤘

[@muzz798]

Nah no problem with it - one of the best metal albums this year to be fair

[@forgemastermetal]

Right on! You're not alone in those thoughts.

[@kidderbraun2543]

I agree on the drums being too loud and fake sounding and the vocals being too low, but its really only a minor nuisance and maybe even something that will grow on me over the years. I didnt like the mix for Time I when it was released, but I spent over a decade parsing out my favorite moments of the compositions and getting used to what it was. I didnt realize how much i liked the OG mix until hearing the 2.0 version from the Time Package. Yes, the 2.0 is beefier and "better" by some descriptive metrics, but it totally betrays what I've spent the last 12 years growing to love. The peaks of the album hit differently and are less impactful as a result. Part of my relationship with an album, especially wall of sound artists like Jari, Devin Townsend, etc, are the years spent sifting through the layers, developing a familiarity and appreciation for the songs and vision. Therefore, despite identifying problems with the mix for Time II, I have no desire to "fix" them or seek out fan mixes because I know I need to go through the process. I.e. learning the material and seeing how it settles out over a few years. That's just par for the course with dense material. Devin Townsend's Infinity is a good comparison for me. The OG mix is muddy and easy to criticize but its the version I grew up on and I've listened to it so much i couldn't have it any other way. I dont like the remaster. The reboot version of Truth on Transcendence is a pale imitation of the OG, all bombast and no soul. Where I disagree most with Jari's vision is insisting on album patches to make everything match Time II. "The way it was always meant to be." Well, too much time has passed for that plane to land. The proper Wintersun timeline is all OG mixes and then Time II being the only one with this loud and modern sound. Jari should stop trying to change the past and let this new product stand on its own. Furthermore, every "fan" mix of Time II I've heard which attempts to alter relative volume of the layers is always terrible, though maybe that can be blamed on KZbin. A lot of people are saying the 2db is GOAT. I still need to hear it. I disagree on orchestration. It's not everyone's cup of tea but check out Way of the Fire and Silver Leaves with orchestration and vocals only. These are rich compositions that reward repeated listens and bring to light intracies and songwriting you cant really hear in the full versions. You mentioned the self-titled album and riffage. I would argue that's almost a separate band. Hot take: Way of the Fire alone is worth $55.

[@forgemastermetal]

We appreciate your response!!

[@kidderbraun2543]

@@forgemastermetal criminal that you didn't give me the dopamine of a heart react then.

[@hectorThechilldudeonacouch]

So many years to release an ok album. I would have not paid that much.

[@RÅNÇIÐ]

I bought the Time Package. I love the music. It's amazing, as you'd expect from Wintersun, even though it didn't click as immediately as Time I did (except for The Way Of The Fire). Do I wish, he had consulted a professional engineer for, like, the final 10% of the mix? Yes. (Let's be honest, the Sonic Pump recordings are the best version of Time I) But there are already nice fan remixes out there that remedy some of the problems and at some point I'm definitely gonna do my own remix as well. So, all in all, I'm happy.

[@forgemastermetal]

I don’t think paying $55 only to listen to fan remixes is acceptable

[@RÅNÇIÐ]

@@forgemastermetal Nah, that's a free bonus.

[@747jono]

@RÅNÇIÐ I bought to,Jari is a complex guy but most geniuses are 💋❤️❤️🤘💯

[@747jono]

@@RÅNÇIÐ Me to still support band on Patreon as well every month 💯🤘🤘🤘

[@747jono]

@@RÅNÇIÐ Teemu is far better in Wintersun than Megadeth lol

[@taomahNEGEV]

Right to the point. Much better Melodic Death Metal albums are out there.

[@smote_his_ruin]

Not coming out this day and age..

[@Mallettize]

I'm glad it is not just me. The guitar and the vocals are buried in here. 100s of tracks of nothingy orchestra, why? And just a wall of sound. Perfectionism killed time 2.

[@drowningsuns]

L take

[@747jono]

Totally agree,Jari plays guitar on cd but the last time i saw him he only sang. I am somewhat surprised by the drumming. Having said that the Japanese elements are excellent ❤️❤️💯💯🤘🤘

[@forgemastermetal]

I wish it was a real orchestra

[@mrproplayer7687]

​@@forgemastermetalreal orchesrta would have cost $$$ to produce

[@forgemastermetal]

100% affordable with the prices the band has been charging

[@walkinginshapes845]

8:21 come on, did we listen to the same album? Vocals are hard to hear on most of the performance? Hahaha come on, give me a break. If you think they are a bit too quiet I can understand, but what is the need to exaggerate everything? It makes you sound stupid, vocals are very clearly audible. Also the point about losing the files and not being able to download them again makes no sense, because what happens if your CD breaks? What happens if the servers go offline? Nothing lasts forever. I just put the entire package on my USB flash drive and that's it. Wow big deal, 2mins of work oh no that's so inconvenient lmao. I don't understand all the cynicism and sarcasm in this video, do you have beef with Jari? There is so much more I could point out, just make a bit of research before making a video like this, it's just laziness.

[@stefanstuder2810]

Well imo they are right about the production issues and the horrible drum sound and its volume. Time 2 is definitely not perfect in terms of how it sounds. But for the rest of the video they seem to be salty towards Jari… No wonder since they called him a scammer months ago 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@forgemastermetal]

As far as the EQ spectrum, there's a lot of competition in the waveform between the orchestrations, vocals, guitars, cymbals, etc. The nuances of Jari's voice are degraded a lot due to all this sonic overlap. It's a shame, really. His performance sounded strong. Would you happen to have a beef with us? Why are you coming in here swinging when we're making pretty valid points about one of the biggest dramas in metal?

[@MrKvitbjorn]

@@walkinginshapes845 But they are right though. The mixing could have been done waay better.

[@ricardoolivo5244]

I agree with you about: - Vocals are fine. - Downloading product is fine too, much better than a CD or DVD that era is long gone. Did not see that much cynicism, but ok I do agree with OP about: - Snare and kickdrums are too loud, too plastic - Mix & Mast should have been done by a third party I still love Time II & Wintersun & I think Jari is a fkin genius, but maybe he needs to learn to let go

[@CGGS_0]

@@walkinginshapes845 You do know that the vocals being too quiet is what makes it hard/difficult to hear, right? I couldn’t even hear the lyrics on my phone’s volume that was at 50% up.

[@brooksploskina5161]

The Dynamic 2db mix of Time 2 included with the Time Package actually sounds way better than the commercial release. It’s the only version I will listen to now. So glad I bought the Time Package now.

[@mrproplayer7687]

Yeah it sounds a lot better and especially when listened with good headphones/speaker

[@thegoblonoid]

2DB version sounds worse on cheaper in ear headphones, and spotify version sounds better. Headphone choice is pretty critical on this album.

[@Kosmoloog]

Yes, this version sounds amazing on magnetic planars

[@747jono]

If i have one criticism the drums are a little too loud.

[@forgemastermetal]

More than a little lol

[@AnonymousUser66649]

If they were much more quiet, the album would lack the tight kick in the ass low end. I agree with the snare being a tad too high and vocals a bit low. Otherwise no complaints at all. People gotta remember, that the album was written VERY long time ago, some songs like one with the shadows was written in -98, even before some debut album songs, so telling that the songwriting is not there anymore is invalid. It's just different and people are expecting a new debut album over and over again.

[@LurchyScott]

That snare sound sure does exist doesn't it?

[@SophiasHeir]

mix was problematic... lol I stopped listening and went to Fleshgod Apocalypse.

[@SophiasHeir]

@@AnonymousUser66649 snare was inexistent lol

[@liohrt]

It's good to hear you guys being more thoughtful about this one than what I can read on the web since the release. Jari create a such a wait, a hype for that thing that people can't even evaluate things anymore those days. This "album" has so many flaws, it doesn't even make me enjoy anything the way it should. The drums are like copy and paste of a hyperprocessed sound that doesn't bring anything interesting. The voiced is blured in the mix. You guys like riffs? Where are they? It's mostly melodies and alternates notes driven all along... Thus like time 1, it is stretched with useless things like the sound of rain for many minutes, way too long introduction just to make people forget it was supposed to be released in one and only album... I agree when you says time one is actually better. It's more of a "homemade" sounding album but it has more variety, more memorable parts and riffs,... The only answer to the question : "why did he did everything himself" Can only be answered by " i want even more money" like he always did... Seriously, since the debut album, i've listened to wayyyy better melodic albums than that. It doesn't compete anymore with the rest. 55€ should be spent for better quality music instead of this package. Thank you guys for your opinion, be sure you'll get criticized for that.

[@forgemastermetal]

We appreciate your response, Forgemate!

[@10hourvgm4]

So $55 was for the time package? Can we still buy it?

[@Triforce12345678]

If jari released the best of the legendary demos as finished songs on albums after the self titled album it would have been a success. Lets say that we got fantasy album in 2007 and then Time in whole in 2010. And then continous albums every third year or something. Wintersun would have been a huge success story. However, I still love Wintersun.. Love time 2 but some of the legendary demos sound close to the self titled album and I would have loved to have theese songs earlier.

[@smote_his_ruin]

Hard to believe he sat on them for so long. Then he goes and uses One With The Shadows for Time 2 lol.

[@mangoherpson]

As a relatively new wintersun fan (and new fan of metal in general). I really like the album, but I feel all the energy and resources he spent on getting the orchestrations right was not needed. Unless I'm at my desk wearing my HD650s, I barely hear these nuances. I agree that the debut album sounds the best but also the songs themselves complement that production style. I hope Jari has more of those shorter, less grandiose songs for us in the future. Based on this review, you guys seem cool. Subscribed.

[@thatsit7933]

I agree on the snare sound, it was the first thing that annoyed me on the album 😅

[@forgemastermetal]

It's quite apparent.

[@geraldford5573]

I agree 100%

[@Ensiferum85]

Well bought the package 50 percent for early demos and 50 percent for time2. Except the first demo album when Jari was a kid its a lot of good songs. Some of them like Power inside is a true masterpiece. Time2 is a good album but not great. A lot better than forest season. But Time1 and Wintersun albums have more power and feeling.

[@Mulukkis]

It's really not about if the package is worth the price. It's more about people wanting to support the band. And I fully agree with the drum sound. It's my main issue. The snare sound is just horrible.

[@lorcandruid]

I bought the CD when it was officially released which only cost me £10.99 and so is actually cheaper than many other new releases and I certainly consider Time II fantastic value for money. Jari is, for better or worse, very much in control of what is released as Wintersun but you can say that was always the case. On their debut album Jari played ALL the instruments apart from the drums so that was essentially a solo project and he was involved in the production-side even back then. I'm not sure whether Jari trusts any others apart from himself to realise his musical vision, but that's a question for him to answer. Having said that, I agree the production & mixing could be better and having his own studio is an unnecessary indulgence. This album could have been created in many other professional studios and released 10 years ago and probably wouldn't have even have cost as much as it ended up doing. I'll wait to see what the other 4-5 albums Jari is working on sound like and from what he has said himself his next release will probably drop sometime in 2025.

[@forgemastermetal]

Especially for someone who keeps claiming every campaign the point is to “release music faster” and we’ve yet to see that happen.

[@Orangeokie7]

The glaring problem is that I'm having trouble uploading the time package to my Apple music library which is frustrating. I've pretty much given up and have yet to even listen through the package because I don't listen to music on my computer.

[@forgemastermetal]

That’s really annoying

[@Imfreehowaboutu]

@@Orangeokie7 are you uploading the wave files or mp3 files? Apple Music can have issues with wave but the mp3 shouldn’t be a problem.

[@ravenwda007]

I’ve added them without difficulty. WAV or ALAC

[@Orangeokie7]

@@Imfreehowaboutu how do you change it to MP3?

[@Imfreehowaboutu]

@@Orangeokie7 Look for “Time package mp3” towards the bottom of the download page. It contains all the audio content included in the package.

[@TheDretch]

Agreed and to me, the vocals also sound a bit low. And of course, no one is going to listen to 16 discs...it's more to appeal to collectors in which there are many.

[@tomelias2679]

remember that the 50 Euro price also goes into "gas money" for the next albums. we didnt just buy Time II, we also invested in the albums of the future.

[@forgemastermetal]

That's a big leap of faith given their track record with releasing albums.

[@narmagil7524]

I love the whole package and can easily agree with the price that it had. You guys are missing so many good songs from Jari. I loved Time II but you can always argue that it is flawed with mixing or some sounds like snare sound for example. But mixing is always a compromise and very hard to master. Anyway this is Jari's mix of the record. Could it be better. Yes for sure but that is for the listener to decide. In a way I would say that is freaking hard to mix it so that you can hear all the 1000 tracks on songs like the way of the fire or the vocal mix on top of that so that you could hear everything perfectly. I've heard and seen master mixers fail even with songs that have less than 10 tracks. How is this possible? Every mixer favors some things over the others... So all compromise. If you have 50 tracks they have so many frequences on them that it can already fall really flat. Because many of the sounds jump on the same frequencies. So there are so many things to take in to consideration. Songs from bands like Metallica or Panthera are so easy to mix. Only few tracks on them... this is like mixing 10 filharmonic orchestras at the same time. So to make it so that you can hear each and everyone of the sounds is close to impossible. It requires a hell of a lot of talent... Should there be so many tracks you can question? I don't know. But Jari is the composer and he does what he sees fit and I'm happy with what he released and I really don't give a damn if someone else doesn't. I have all the tracks and can mix the whole record how I wanna hear it. Only because I have the package which was well worth it.

[@forgemastermetal]

Plenty of professionals mix albums as complex as this.

[@MrRacoon666]

Jari is great musician, singer and composers; among the best of the new century in metal, but he needs a producer and sound engineer The flaws of the album, as for Time I, is the music filler on the album. Too much time is lost in cinematic atmosphere at end of tracks than actual music The actual songs are fucking great, but you are left with 37 min if you do the trimmings. I would always look back at this and imagine how great would have been if these 2 albums where actually one, with a trimmed production Nevertheless I hope the best for Jari and Wintersun

[@forgemastermetal]

Totally.

[@DaeronSilivren]

Drums are too loud (and weird) and vocals are clearly too quiet. It's a shame, because otherwise it could have been a great album. Lets wait for Time II version 2.0 :-D I bought Time Package, but not only for Time II, the main reason was to support the band to create more stuff. And to thank them for the work they have done on previous albums, because I did not buy those.

[@MountainMetal]

Some people seem to think nitpicking every little thing they can makes them edgy or something. It doesn't.

[@forgemastermetal]

I don’t think you watched this video bud. We give a ton of credit for many things.

[@Xiphos1349]

Anyone else a little disappointed with the volume that little lead guitar shred at the beginning of Storm

[@andyfox8377]

Couldnt agree more. Pretty much spot on with how i feel. Amazing music with god awful frustrating production

[@forgemastermetal]

Yeah, it's wild how polarizing it seems to be.

[@747jono]

I did buy the package just waiting to download it all

[@forgemastermetal]

I thought it was available to everyone?

[@smote_his_ruin]

Please tell me you know that the download package included like 5 full albums of unreleased demo songs?

[@forgemastermetal]

It’s on the page, yes. That’s not even remotely the point.

[@smote_his_ruin]

@@forgemastermetal Watching the video made it seem like you guys thought it was just stems and remixes of Time 2 only, you never mentioned the unreleased songs, which in my opinion was worth the $ (even though I never paid for it, lol)

[@smote_his_ruin]

@@forgemastermetal I agree with everything else though. The production issues are maddening. Can barely hear the vocals. I also like Wintersun for the riffs mainly. They can easily carry the band. Not sure why he wanted to make movie soundtracks with the metal... Jari gonna Jari I guess.

[@747jono]

I love atmospheric solo projects ❤️💯💋💋🤘🤘

[@forgemastermetal]

What are some of your favorites?

[@scottiematthews5932]

Thanks for the video guys! I enjoyed the album (bit much on the orchestration) but yes the production was disappointing. Very hard to hear the harsh vocals and yes the drums lol. Im a physical collector but decided to grab this one at the 55 price cause of all the old albums like the fantasy metal project. That one was a fucking slapper 🤘 stay metal brothers

[@forgemastermetal]

Appreciate you sharing your story with us! Looking through the whole time package, there's definitely a lot to chew on for fans to go crazy. There's definitely some neat stuff in the package as far as the music goes. Those solo orchestrations will be great for gaming or role-playing sessions, haha.

[@scottiematthews5932]

@@forgemastermetalNp lol totally gaming material!

[@JesusHernández-h9f]

🍻

[@jurgenkalowski1442]

I highly disagree. I think more artists should produce their music by themselves and I don't think that Jari is a bad producer. Just look at Devin Townsend, he makes everything himself too, and yes the music sometimes sounds strange or let's say different from the "normal" produced music, but in my opinion that's great and that's what so many fans love about it. Secondly the music industry is fucked up, because of all the labels producers and what not, who suck all the money from the artists. I think what Wintersun did, also with the crowdfunding is the future of musicians. Everybody listens to music, but nobody wants to pay for it. That's wrong. Making music is a hell of work.

[@forgemastermetal]

The production is a big sticking point with many of the fans. I agree with you on a lot of the points here, but my stance is if Jari is going to promise a “epic” product, he should’ve used some of the funds to hire a master of the production craft. He had plenty of money to do so.

[@blastfromthepast999]

THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO!! Finally, I was feeling alone in this world! The Snare sounds really bad! The overall production isn't top notch! At this level, if you write the music and do everything alone, you need a pair of fresh ears! A professional! Just watch the short of Rick Beato where he interviews Danny Carey from tool and they are talking about Bob Ludwig!

[@forgemastermetal]

I totally agree!

[@PeaGabi]

2:07 aaand the 5 full albums of unreleased demos. So yeah, it's worth all the money

[@forgemastermetal]

If you love the music that much, we're glad you feel it was a worthwhile investment.

[@PeaGabi]

@@forgemastermetal I didn't buy it myself, I'm not a huge fan of Wintersun anymore 😂 But I'm just saying that this time it was worth the price (unlike the forest crowdfunding). You didn't mention the 5 demo albums, that's all

[@EatMoreWorms]

It's a pretty unsubstantiated argument to say, that if a digital product isn't hosted anymore you're SOL. If you loose or scratch your CD, if you break your LP you're SOL, too. If you buy something, you have to take care of it, no matter if it's digital or analog. I agree with everything else you're saying to an extent, but that point seems like not thought through at all.

[@forgemastermetal]

Again, this falls under the "do what you want; it's your money line" category. Not everyone is going to take care of their investment, which is probably why the Wintersun team had to make a big deal out of "Hey, back your stuff up." Our argument is that the music can (and should) be hosted. Even if it's for five or ten years. Or the next release. It's not complicated or expensive.

[@EatMoreWorms]

@@forgemastermetal The argument still stands. There's no difference to a physical product. If you buy a CD and lose or break it, it's your fault. A physical release can't always be rebought, if it's out of production, for example. And if you buy a digital product, it's your responsibility to store it responsibly like any other non-digital medium. No difference at all. It's not up to Wintersun to indefinitely make the download available, as Nuclear Blast is not mandated to keep the physical Time II release on store shelves forever. We're grown ups. We buy something, we take care of it. We lose it, it's our fault, we deal with it. If you disagree you're having a few hard life lessons coming I'm afraid.

[@forgemastermetal]

You’re getting hung up on a minor gripe.

[@Night1989-pw3fg]

@@forgemastermetal You got hung up on the minor gripe. He just points out how nonsensical it is.

[@forgemastermetal]

And that’s fine dude. The difference is if you buy a physical product and break it or whatever, you can usually just buy it again. In this case, there’s a window to get the digital product. Regardless, that is a minor gripe on the release of the Time Package. The point of this discussion is to cover the production choices.

[@robr9170]

My issue was the lack of content like it was 3 songs and a few intros!

[@RÅNÇIÐ]

50 minutes is a lot for half an album.

[@forgemastermetal]

Yeah the intro track is way too long.

[@thehighground_]

It's a bloated EP

[@JohnnyBoj89]

@@robr9170 lack of content? We got time | 2.0, legendary early demos. Very nice 8k booklet and bunch of time || versions. I personallt think it was pretty decent.

[@robr9170]

@@JohnnyBoj89 yeah it is decent but like how long was everyone waiting for haha

[@747jono]

Tbh this is what's worrying me about the new Nightwish due soon

[@geraldford5573]

I found the new Wintersun to be blah

[@geraldford5573]

I was just kinda staring at a wall disappointed

[@AngusMacThrasherMetalReviews]

He reminds me of Skwisgaar Skwigelf from Dethklok

[@forgemastermetal]

hhaha

[@747jono]

Cheers guys take care 🤘🤘🤘💯💯💯

[@itsonlyrocknroll12]

Yeah, it’s a massive anticlimax. As someone who really does love the music, but didn’t go for the big box hoohaa, it’s a couple of songs which - as you guys mentioned, are just underwhelming in production. It’s all a bit sad.

[@forgemastermetal]

We are sad about it, for sure.

[@specialed.2461]

Spot on review - agree 100%. BTW: "right off the bat" = first thing. "off the cuff" = unscripted, impromptu, extemporaneous, ad-lib

[@forgemastermetal]

We are aware of what those phrases mean. Maybe you're referring to a spot that seems off because of an edit? Otherwise, dunno what you're trying to clarify. Regardless, thanks for tuning in.

[@dovesofwar1777]

Time II Electric Boogaloo

[@forgemastermetal]

Gotta get down there.

[@jesseleavy5841]

My thoughts: I liked it better than Time I, but that's not a very high bar considering I didn't really care for Time I. I do feel like Time II had much better guitar work. Better riffs, better solos, better everything. However the guitar sound was pretty weak, much like Time I. Honestly I just feel like it's overproduced, over polished, and very mechanical sounding. And I agree, it would have sounded so much better if they had used an actual orchestra. Look at what Dimmu Borgir did with Deathcult Armageddon! They used a real orchestra, and it's not like they had a huge amount of money to work with back then. That album sounds amazing! It pretty much made them a household name; which is either a good thing or a bad thing depending on how "tRvE CvLt" you are. Bottom line: beautiful sounding record, but too much flash and not enough substance.

[@forgemastermetal]

You hit the nail on the head in your last sentence!

[@JesusHernández-h9f]

Soool my gari maempa

[@JoshuaCarrig]

I wish I could hear all the good music over the obnoxiously loud drums.

[@RÅNÇIÐ]

Check out some of the fan remixes.

[@forgemastermetal]

Wild that there are already fan remixes.

[@747jono]

I am a physical guy cds and vinyl

[@forgemastermetal]

Do you have room for it all? haha.

[@Taking_Dawn_Archives]

The isolated tracks of the Bass is horrendous. ( I am French and I always wanted to use that word HORRENDOUS, in a proper way. ) And how can you make such an awesome drummer sound so bad. AND if you edit out the Orchestrations (which are badly recorded anyway) it sounds better. This is the saddest release heavy metal had in years, production wise, it should be an example not to follow.

[@Stevie-Steele]

The album is flawed, but I was still floored. 😁

[@forgemastermetal]

Musicianship will always floor me, but I can’t help but be disappointed

[@thehighground_]

Oh man we're talking griftersun's new album. I knew you guys would have thoughts when this wasn't on your best of August video and they way you guys have talked about production in the past I wasn't surprised. I didn't know there was a 17 disc version, that's insane. I thought the Prince estate was mad releasing 9 disc versions of his albums since he's dead but 17? WTF is loud and modern?

[@forgemastermetal]

Yeah, this is definitely not what we wanted to hear in the production department.

[@thehighground_]

​@forgemastermetal It's really disappointing, like you guys I really enjoyed the first album and his two with Ensiferum. I hope he hires a producer for whatever comes next in 2040

[@Alexi676]

If you’re going to have this much orchestration, and trying to create a truly cinematic experience, the drums can’t be this loud. As much as the snare is a disaster, the kick drum distracts me the most. There’s some killer guitar work here, but nothing about this sounds very current. The magic is gone.🤷🏼‍♂️

[@forgemastermetal]

If we had a professional mixing and mastering, it could’ve been REAL special

[@smote_his_ruin]

I suppose its an issue when I can barely tell the snare and kick apart lol

[@julienlavoie6908]

I don't know why some people are expecting Wintersun to sound like any other metal bands. Good bands play the long run in my opinion.

[@forgemastermetal]

How is Time II a long-running product?

[@benshaw2341]

It's super weeby

[@forgemastermetal]

Ha that's one way of putting it.

[@IoIocaust]

I listened to the album in my earbuds, and it sounded good, bass drum sounded a bit clicky, but the guitar sound was great.. but when I played it on my speakers, it was like listening to porridge, I couldnt tell the instruments apart. it was like a wall of static noise.. The album clearly needs to be sent to a professional studio. But it's good to have the album out there,, The songs are STELLAR

[@Ardroth]

I was completely turned off by the utterly CRINGE promo video earlier this year... but i listened to the new album anyway. I am with you guys. It failed to deliver on its promise. Production aside, i felt it was 2 great songs with a bunch of filler. Unbelievable for something that supposedly required a private state of the art studio, a new supercomputer, and a sauna to complete... no shade to the rest of the band who are tagging along but Jari really is a joke

[@forgemastermetal]

Their promo videos are certainly not fun to watch haha

[@Dosenpruegel]

I hate the drum sound and production on this. Not fitting at all for me. :/

[@skippertheeyechild6621]

Wintersun fanboys trying to defend the crowdfunding makes me laugh. The fact of the matter is, he didn't need this studio he wanted. I'm glad he is actually productive now though. I do like some of his music. But people need to stop with this weird cultish style worship.

Why? Those 2 "crowdfundings" were pre-sales of digital albums/packages. What is wrong or worth of a laugh about it? Yes, he could have just sold albums through label, but that's less money for the artist. I support the artist, not the record label, so if they figure out the way to get more money, it's definetly more than ok. People who thinks fans just "invested" their money for nothing, makes me laugh. They bought a product.

[@skippertheeyechild6621]

You paid 50 euro for a pledge which rewarded you an album and some other stuff. This was part of several crowdfunding campaigns (yes it was crowdfunding) for something that wasn't even needed in the end. As long as you are happy I guess. Make sure to donate again when he asks you.

[@omarshabaneh4016]

I liked everything except the mix

[@forgemastermetal]

Same!

[@benh1467]

I have to say. This must be our fault. Had we given him enough money to get his sauna this thing would be perfect. Kidding aside, its a good album. Not the second coming, but certainly worthy of coming back to.

[@benh1467]

Another thought. Can you imagine how good this would sound if they did it like Fleshgod did King?

[@forgemastermetal]

100%

[@jasonmorman5722]

LOL 😂

[@forgemastermetal]

LOLOLOL

[@moocorp4574]

The mix doesn’t bother me because I listen to fan remixes on KZbin

[@Ana198]

the mix is fucking horrible, this coming from a fan that has been waiting for this album for +10 years, you are right. If you spend so much time on an album you get blind spots, he must hear parts he knows are there but us first time listeners can't hear them because they are so low on the mix. Even the first day remixes on youtube were a vast improvement because they all took the shitty sounding drums down. He should know that if he knew how to mix he wouldn't need to make several remixes of Time I

[@forgemastermetal]

Absolutely. With the amount of money raised, he could’ve had this sounding absolutely incredible.

[@makidiaz3894]

One of the corniest albums I’ve ever heard, idk, It sounds like it was recorded in his room and all done digitally on a laptop with a usb interface. Amateur hour

[@rupbhatt]

As per my opinion Time 1 had better songs. Also the mix is a mess.

[@forgemastermetal]

Your opinion is noted!

[@8523wsxc]

The central problem is that cheese has a very short shelf life, and then it starts to smell up the place.

[@forgemastermetal]

True

[@MetalNeverDieswithMarkA]

Overrated!!!!!

[@forgemastermetal]

Indeed, sir.

[@metal_maniac_68]

that package for those in US may only be $55 but in Australia it's over $100 with currency conversion. It's probably more like a collector's item as I sure as hell wouldn't listen to all 17 discs due to time constraints in normal life

[@forgemastermetal]

Oof that’s rough

[@metal_maniac_68]

@@forgemastermetal checked on their indiegogo page and it was priced at $83Aus, 61% off regular price $213 Aus... also on top of that are postage costs

[@forgemastermetal]

Shipping costs are crazy these days.

[@AlejandroRasmussen7]

….a mediocre effortt?? Who tf are you and what have you produced to have the balls to call Jari mediocre??

[@forgemastermetal]

Did you listen at all to what we said? Numerous times we called Jari a master of his craft as a musician.

[@NTsklwjsnejx]

I will stick with Atavistia

[@forgemastermetal]

I don’t blame you