US WWI Sniping Rifles (USMC & Army)

/ forgottenweapons
The United States had two primary types of sniper rifles during World War One, although both were based on the M1903 Springfield rifle.
The most common optic used was the Warner & Swasey "Telescopic Musket Sight", a rather clumsy prismatic optic mounted on the left side of the rifle, on a detachable rail. The model 1908 W&S offered 6 power magnification, which was reduced to 5.2x in the 1913 model in an effort to increase field of view. These optics were also used on the M1909 Benet-Mercie light machine gun.
The second type is the Winchester A5 scope, an excellent commercial scope available at the time. Although usually associated with the US Marine Corps, several hundred of these were also issued by the Army. The A5 was a much more tradition type of optic, mounted centrally above the bore and preferred by competitive marksmen.
The third rifle we are looking at in this video is a very interesting example of a competitive rifle from the pre-WWI period. It is a 1903 Springfield fitted with a commercial A5 scope and Mann bases. This is the sort of rifle that would have been used by the career military shooters for competition, and would likely have accompanied many such men overseas in the American Expeditionary Force. Woe to the German who found himself in the sights of such a man with a rifle like this!
/ forgottenweapons
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[@achristy446]

I hope that buyer of that Winchester scope case traces M. H. Van Camp's family. It would be a very fitting and interesting way to remember one of the wars many forgotten heroes.

[@Tunkkis]

Someone in these comments already did.

[@redjoshman]

Forgotten Weapons, I found a Pvt. Melvin H. Van Camp in the United States Marine Corps Muster Rolls. Enlisted June 5, 1917. In November 1917 he was stationed with the 61st Company, Marine Barracks, Navy Yard, New York, NY. He seems to have been there until July 1918 when he was assigned to Headquarters Overseas Depot, Quantico, Va. In August he is assigned to Co. "A", Overseas Depot, Marine Barracks, Quantico, Va. August 26, 1918 he is transferred again to Co. M, 3rd Battalion, 13th Regiment. The 13th Marines leave for France September 15 and arrive September 28th. In October he is promoted to Corporal. Upon the Regiment's return to the US in August of 1919 he is promoted to Sergeant where he then musters out. He does not appear to have seen any combat service. Just occupation duty in the post-war period. The Armistice saved him from involvement in the Spring of 1919 Offensive.

[@drmaudio]

Thanks for doing that.

[@redjoshman]

No problem, was fairly easy and simple to do.

[@mortisCZ]

Good to know. It adds to the story of the rifle.:-)

[@Surv1ve_Thrive]

Well done that is really interesting info. Thank you.

[@bigbramel]

Holy shit, I already thought that the Pvt had to be from dutch descent. But together with his dutch first name I am pretty sure his parents or even him come over from the Netherlands.

[@Deraios]

Thankfully I can't blame DICE for screwing with these yet. Fantastic video

[@G-Mastah-Fash]

Well they put the musket sight on a Lee Enfield even though the british had their own (Altis) scopes.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

And they put it way too far forward and gave it a schutzen front grip for some mysterious reason.

[@WARXion]

Battlefield games were never realistic but authentic. They put it forward so the player can see the whole scope, not just a big bulky box. The whole theme of the game is about "How can we make the Great War look as badass as possible?"

[@Deraios]

You'll probably be able to combine any number of features in the full game. But yeah...

[@b0nenana]

dont forget that u cna only zero to 75, 150 and 300 meters

[@Dogemeat2077]

The musket sight might not be the best, but at least it doesn't give off any scope glint

[@pivotboy2062]

Bf1 referance?

[@dr3144]

a certain finnish sniper would agree

[@wmk0078]

@@dr3144 Simo Häyhä would indeed agree

[@ericswain70]

It must be hard for Ian not to buy all the guns he shows us.His passion for them really comes through in the videos.

[@paint_thinner]

*Shell explodes next to you* Welp, gotta get a new optic.

[@paint_thinner]

Sorry, I gotta get this headshot boi.

[@austing5951]

I remember The Great Emu War, how did we lose to those bloody birds? (Probably cause their chest is bulletproof)

[@paint_thinner]

Shhhh

[@austing5951]

+The Great Emu War why because we're a laughing stock for losing a war against birds, I'm proud to say, I'd like to see the yanks do better.

[@paint_thinner]

Yes

[@calumlg1480]

I'm glad you give the metric equivalent for most things, helps those of us who don't use imperial units.

[@Surv1ve_Thrive]

Agreed, it is very thorough, very professional and very helpful.

[@yeaman992]

Come to the dark side of measurement.

[@mauritsschoonderwaldt676]

you mean "non-retarded units"

[@UltimoMantis21]

you mean the whole world except Liberia, Myanmar and the us? we do pretty good actually.

[@yorkazuna5934]

@@UltimoMantis21 We are in such fine company...

[@Buzbikebklyn1]

Bravo! There's always a history lesson with every weapon you display. My Father (ex army sharpshooter) was big on older rifles. Here's 2 rifles I'd enjoy hearing your history for: #1- the Browning 30-06 " safrari semiauto. #2- the 1959 Rugar .44 Magnum carbine bush gun. Both have been passed down to me from my Dad. Needless to say they are well kept and used every year. I intend to pass them down to my son. What ever happens to KZbin I'll watch your vids anywhere. Thanks.

[@skullboy1977]

Your depth of knowledge about these old firearms is incredible. Thanks for sharing it with us.

[@Kamwi_003]

What a great way to start the morning.

[@ianmacfarlane1241]

I can see a German officer thinking exactly that as he had his coffee. Then two seconds later his morning was somewhat ruined.

[@ristoalanko9281]

Nice early rifles! Finnish Army had a box-type scope in WW II, but with internal adjustment. An odd piece high above the action, you needed a neck a foot long to get a good view through it. Later it was put on the side of the action, but you couldn't get a cheek weld without a thich pad on the stock.

[@MatthewBaileyBeAfraid]

Spinning ship propellers and airplanes that have only one prop or screw (or should I say Screw and Prop) have the same problem with "drift," but it is called "prop walk." And it exists for the same reason as bullet drift. The tiny difference in pressure between the top and bottom of the prop (which on aircraft and bullets is made more pronounced by the lift generated by the objects creating lower pressure above. And in boats this causes the boat to move in a direction opposite the torque (same with planes with pusher-props), and airplanes to be pulled in a direction of the torque. In model airplanes, this is so pronounced that you must angle the engine down and in the direction of spin by about 5° to 10°. In smaller models, this can be as much as 15°. For motors of .049 to .09 displacement, the offset is usually about 12°.

[@boristhebarbarian]

At 19:01 you said that all the old guard UK soldiers from august 1914 where dead. There is actually a medal clasp for the WWI campaign medal known as the the 1914 bar. It was issued to anyone who served for 10+?? days in France and Belgium before November 14, 1914 (last day 1st battle of Yper?) who was left alive at wars end. Its is known as the "Old Contemptables" bar... It is one of the rarest bars ever issued for Commonwealth campaign medals and sadly was very badly made so it would fall off if not properly attached.

[@TheBitwise]

YES. Thank you for these. I really like seeing comparisons of weapons of the same type that were used in a lot of action.

[@lckgilmo43]

Trench war. They were aiming for helmets/heads in WW1. That's why they wanted powerful scopes.

[@xrtsplash]

I have a feeling this channel is going to blow up once BF1 comes out. Which is good, because this channel is super interesting

[@nicklewis7291]

Thank you for bringing these historical weapons and their accessories to us, your audience.

[@Mos2311USMC]

A very nice job on these WWI 1903's enjoy learning history, Semper Fidelis

[@SNOUPS4]

Thanks for having made this cool comparative video, Ian, and for the views through the scopes, such is always nice! (and thanks to cpl. (or pvt.?) van Camp for his service...)

[@tyleryoung9819]

What happened to your sweet intro video? the machine gun fire seemed to sync up with the music and it sounded awesome.

[@Darkwolf1942]

1:15 Sounded like you were going to say "It's a bitch" then caught yourself lol.

[@3ducs]

Interestingly, the rear sight on a1903 compensates for precession, the drift due to bullet spin. It is actually a precision sight when raised and the peep aperture is used.

[@charles_wipman]

Damn it, the history behind those rifles is amazing; and the custom 03 one it's very pimp.

[@coldnorwegian4716]

That's very interesting! Those optics looks so fragile. How well does those A5 scopes actually hold their zero using that spring tension system? I'm assuming pretty well, or they wouldn't be in use. Compared to modern standards and equipment, what kind of accuracy can be expected from such old classics as these sniping rifles? I mean in their time using period correct ammunition, and not in their current potentially worn condition.

[@RobertoRuizHBK]

Snipers are my passion. Congrats from Brazil.

[@TheStowAway594]

Very cool video. Optics are so fascinating, especially old ones. Thank you for sharing!

[@MTMind69]

Can you measure the trigger pull weight for these the amazing historic firearms you study? I cannot speak for anyone else, but I would like to know.

[@Phoenixx6]

EA should love videos like this right now with the release of Battlefield 1 coming up in the near future. The gameplay is definitely not WWI but all the technologies are based on emerging concepts from that time. Rifles like these and many others you've showcased definitely fit into the era.

[@perfidiouspomegranate1599]

These are all in the game, the 1908 musket scope is available for all rifles at the moment, and the A5 will likely be in as well.

[@jonpayne4931]

Strange. Whenever I see these, all I can think of is Pepper's character in 'Saving Private Ryan'. A lefty marksman using a righty bolt operator.

[@imbeauski8872]

Hey Ian, was the M1903 the only rifle typically mounted with an optic in US service, or did the M1917 also receive optics in some cases during the war? Great video by the way.

[@miscmilitaria8566]

Im Beauski Yes the M1917 received optics sometimes

[@SolidSativa1]

8:14 So nice of them to tell us all whitch way to install the scope 😅

[@EcclecticNerd]

Very interesting to see the differing approaches to sniping by the various services.

[@ren52]

Thanks! You have a lot of great information on a lot of weapons that I've never seen before. Great channel!

[@slaughterhound8793]

Though I know it is just a telescopic sight, that Warner & Swasey has the appearance of some sort of crazy camera you could use to film your kills.

[@bramster-b9v]

This Telescopic Musket Sight reminded me at first of a Norden bomb sight but Ian was able to clear that up quickly.

[@RaDeus87]

Hmm, it almost seems like you could use a stripperclip with the Winchester scope if you slid the scope all the way forward, but I guess that it's a few cm too long for that to work.

[@itsconnorstime]

I love your videos Ian but I've never finished one. Your voice is so calm it makes me fall asleep!

[@SlavSuperstar]

generic this will be in bf1 comment

[@JohnDoe-pv2iu]

It seems like the Best rifle brought the least at Auction. Great Video!

[@DoRC]

3000 yards with that scope power would be like iron sighting 1700ft away. ain't gonna happen.

[@CassandraFortuna]

Prismatic scopes are so cool, even if they're clunky and typically hard to use.

[@heroinboblivesagain5478]

Ah yes. Giving marines fragile equipment. There is no chance they will break said fragile equipment.

[@itswoods]

I've asked before but do you think you'll ever get the chance to do some videos at the Springfield armory museum? Maybe next time you go up to Maine you can make a stop here in Western Mass

[@mikeallen7830]

Yes!

[@itswoods]

I'd really like to see a video on their SPIW rifle

[@u4ia420]

Love your videos! I always learn something!

[@timbaskett6299]

"Eye hickey"? Oh, you must be a sniper!! 😆 On a serious note though. My granddad's reel camera has a beautiful leather case with it. It is one of my favorite family inheritance pieces.

[@1339LARS]

Amazing scopes thanks for the vid!!!!!

[@DeepPastry]

Nice, Private Vancamp when issued that scope holster, became Corporal Vancamp when he wrote his name on top of the lid.

[@shadowjack8]

Really appreciated this video.

[@dobypilgrim6160]

Superb examples. Thanks!

[@definebruh3416]

Loved the view of the reticules, you should try and put every iron sight or scope in first person view in your videos

[@darc1027]

Very cool stuff thanks for the great videos

[@roderickformosa2423]

Very nice video thanks for sharing it

[@flyingninja1234]

I read somewhere that the crosshairs, were often made of spider silk.

[@thunderkatz4219]

Battlefield wasn’t playing

[@hotrodhendrix1]

Best channel on KZbin.

[@masaharumorimoto4761]

Awesome! Thanks Ian!

[@fowlergaming5140]

Watching again four years later!

[@drmaudio]

Very cool to have the personalized case. Too bad there isn't one with the target rifle.

[@762rk95tp]

You didn't notice that M.H. Van Camp got promoted. That implies that pencil marks have faded. If he would have got out of corps as Pvt or LCpl M.H. Van Camp it's likely that pencil marks would have never existed.

[@konstantin.v]

Why would the long scope break with recoil, while the other one would not? Was the tube made too thin, for some reason? Or maybe the lenses? Thanks.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

More an issue with the reticles than the lenses, so I understand.

[@markbroad119]

at 1000 yards the spin of the earth makes a difference

[@SkyPilot54]

Dam fine rifles

[@costantinoandruzzi2219]

The most effective sniper of WWI was a Canadian sergeant-major, though: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Pegahmagabow And he used the notorious Ross rifle!

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Keep it clean, and the Ross is an excellent rifle.

[@costantinoandruzzi2219]

Sure, and "Peggy" did provide substantial proof for that!

[@Pprokop87]

the "artillery sniper scope" is back!

[@tnycrmb]

Did I see correctly that the inside of the A5 case was marked PVT and the top was marked CPL? Kind of a neat history if so showing his rank at 2 different times. Would be fun to get on Ancestry.com or a similar service and research more information about him. I'm sure it's easy to find with both the first and middle initials.

[@stevecastro1325]

23:31 Excuse me; very cool?! Nay, I say; frostbitten!

[@Mrguccigarcia]

Yut! All Marines are lean, mean fighting machines🤘🏻

[@Charsept]

I like the look of those A5s. Would like something similar to go on my wards westernfield.

[@Rangercaptain1138]

5:09 Yeah, gentle and respectful of govt' property is how I would describe Marines. lol

[@augustkeith9349]

Did they ever experiment with the 1917 for a sniper platform?

[@miscmilitaria8566]

August Keith yes

[@MrSimon117]

infinitesimal..... adding that one to my vocab

[@notsoserious0944]

American Rifleman has published an account of a Marine making 1400 yard shots. I can reference it if you like. It was Pvt. Roland Fisher.

[@roymorris03]

very nice piece of history

[@charleymitchell8904]

this video is going to get really really popular really fast because of "Battlefield 1" coming out! if i was you i would at least tag "#BF1 or #Battlefield1" it will help A LOT!

[@coreyg7575]

+Anthony C lol ikr we get enough gaming nerds stupid comments already lmao

[@herkwrencher107]

The receiver of the "Marksman" rifle is also a 1908 manufacture.

[@SoWe1]

pretty sure you can still see the dope marks in there :) look!

[@simplymadness8849]

Why is it called a musket sight?

[@GrimFaceHunter]

At the time, long barreled rifles were still sometimes referred to as muskets. Some cavalry and artillery bolt action carbines were called musketons.

[@gordonr703]

then why did you comment?

[@o.w.i.m]

Yeah like many other things people just are unable to decide what to call things. Like nowadays Carbines are being called Short Barreled Rifles for some reason........wonder why that is.

[@DeadlyBreath9790]

The Nazi liberals think it sounds scarier and if something has a scary name or looks scarier its more deadly and should be banned

[@wisemankugelmemicus1701]

+DeadlyBreath9790 The Nazis had a gun law that allowed people to buy military Grade weapons.

[@Franky46Boy]

What about the Enfield? I always heard it was the preferred sniper rifle of US armed forces in the Great War.

[@Deliverygirl]

It looks like you can push the A5 scope forward enough to use a strippper clip, would that be possible?

[@tutzdesYT]

The ocular part would still overlap.

[@zacflemo1994]

hey ian, how many guns did Australia create? i know we made the trench mauser( in gallipoli) what else did australians mainly use?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Australia used the same guns as the rest of the Commonwealth - SMLE rifles and Lewis and Vickers machine guns.

[@zacflemo1994]

ah okay, and did most of the infantry have green and gold camp on their rifles and machine guns? that's what I heard or is that not true?

[@Tiger351]

I think the camo you're talking about was WWII on the Bren LMG and Owen SMG but was less than common even then, used more in PNG on the Kokoda track than anywhere else.

[@zacflemo1994]

I'm sure Iv seen sten guns that the Aussie's used n WW1 have a slight Tint of gold and green on them

[@MrBaconperson]

I'm fairly certain that stens were not used in WWI

[@DaUsher]

"Sniping rifles" The grammar nazi in me delights in the correct terminology.

[@Face2theScr33n]

@Chris Collins *jawohl Now, who's the nazi, eh? Wait, I shouldn't be proud of that 😔

[@Killing4Pleasure]

isn't that Warner & Swasey scope on BF1?

[@triasn5039]

i think so

[@imbeauski8872]

Yes, it is.

[@joekurtz6587]

Worst scope on verdun and bf1 period

[@Killing4Pleasure]

+joe kurtz Lol it still looks dope though , but I hope they add the A5 in BF1.

[@joekurtz6587]

Killing4Pleasure404 i hope i get to use dat sweet sweet g98 without a damn scope blocking my sights

[@eariamjh71]

Interesting how on the inside of the telescopic scope case the individuals rank was listed as a private but yet on the outside of the case he had been promoted to corporal.

[@mysss29]

Why are historical slings so complicated? Also, you mentioned, I think in a ZH-29 video, that cavalry carbines would have used sling mounts on the side of the rifle, but infantry would have used bottom-mounted slings. Why is that?

[@alecthomas33]

what kept the scope from rotating clockwise or counterclockwise? the tension from the springs? If you do have to re-adjust that after each shot, do you just have to take your best guess that the sight is level?

[@dalesubic345]

Very interesting. Thanks a lot Ian. You have to know some one who can play a drum and, make you a little war drum intro.

[@garystrong1651]

Every time I see an 03 I think of a story I read while on FOP duty, Nam, about our USMC in WW1. A captured German asked what type of MG they were using. The German could not believe the Marines were shooting just the 03 saying it was like a MG knocking down so many.

[@howardchambers9679]

I think that story was appropriated from the British. The use of Lee Enfield rifles at the start of the war by the professional Expeditionary Force who were trained to rapid fire. Tbh this is the first time I've seen the Yanks try to steal this story.

[@garystrong1651]

@@howardchambers9679 Had nothing to do with rapid fire but accurate fire. You assumed rapid fire

[@spikelowry2724]

Are Springfield rifles getting harder to find or are they easy to find

[@SmokingGun4570]

Spike Lowry I have one that I got way back when CMP used to have them. they are available, but they can be expensive

[@clover4522]

Were those A5 scopes used in the first world war or was it an aftermarket thing?

[@goldenboy7on780]

don't forget your scope dope 👌👍

[@atticcamper8177]

I wonder if anyone has tried to do a modern accuracy test of the Warner Swasey scope.

[@4991Ares]

On the A5, could you possibly shove the tube all the ways forward, so you could load it using stripper clips?

[@GreenDayFanMT]

Thanks for telling the weight of the scope in kilogramm. Man, that''s a really heavy piece.

[@whyidontknow7113]

I have a warner and swaze 1903 without the scope :(

[@mikofthewat]

Ian, I noticed that these rifles all have a hood on the front sight. Is that something specific to these rifles? None of my 1903s have one.

[@P0LYPRO]

I could listen to Gun-Jesus all day.

[@jgedutis]

I have read that bolt action rifles are more accurate because they don't have moving parts during the shot. Are there any rifle designs that don't have moving parts until after the shot has left the barrel? I am thinking like a bolt action rifle that has an electric motor to cycle the action.

[@BigboiiTone]

Were rifles called muskets up until WW1?

[@reach483]

I got myself a 1903 a3. Unfortunately while I can use it for the national matches I can't use it for the vintage sniper match at Perry as it doesn't have a scope.

[@donnkelley6823]

You can use it at our service rifle matches just the way it is....... I ran mine for one year and took first place with it. Loads of fun, great shooter.

[@archangel20031]

I guess the description and the prices that the guns sold for is not available on the phone app