The Greene Carbine: Too Tricky for the Cavalry

James Greene patented this unusual breechloading carbine design in 1854, and arranged to have it manufactured by the Massachusetts Arms Company of Chicopee Falls. He managed to sell 300 of them to the US military, in .54 caliber and with 22 inch barrels. Field testing was done in 1857, although it was found that they were too awkward for use on horseback, and no further guns were purchased. However, a much larger order was placed by the British military, apparently with the intention of arming the Cape Mounted Rifles.
The guns ordered by the British, including the one in today’s video, had 18” barrels but were otherwise identical to the American guns. The Greene uses a locking system in which the barrel rotates 90 degrees to lock two large lugs into locking shoulders on the frame of the weapon. A paper or linen cartridge is used, and a tapered needle at the center of the breechblock penetrates the base of the cartridge when the action is closed. This needle channels the fire from the percussion cap (the Maynard tape priming system was licensed and built into the carbines) into the cartridge powder charge.
The British spent several years testing ammunition for their Greene carbines, but were unable to find a construction method which was light enough to be punctured by the firing needle but also sturdy enough for field use. But the early 1860s a superior Westley-Richards breechloader had been adopted, and the Greene carbines were put into storage in the Tower of London until eventually destroyed or sold - having never seen field use.
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[@deeznoots6241]

Everything’s too tricky for the cavalry, hell they have to get an animal to do their walking for them

[@davidcruz8667]

Riding a horse can become quite easy once you learn the nuances of horsemanship, but it takes skill to charge into combat and also aim and hopefully hit your target from a moving horse in uncertain terrain, not to mention all the pertinent steps required to reload your weapon while riding. A carbine like this would be a nightmare. Early cavalry equipped with firearms either carried a number of loaded single-shot firearms as a close-in weapon, like two flintlock pistols to back up a saber, pike, or lance, or later with repeating arms they had revolvers and rifles such as lever action guns with a magazine loaded with the modern metal case and primer cartridges of today. So definitely tricky.

[@StreakedSilver]

@@davidcruz8667 The joke went over your head so far it reached low orbit.

[@davidcruz8667]

@@StreakedSilver oh, I got it, but I agree on the low orbit. Not funny, especially for horse riders.

[@alecnolastname4362]

@@davidcruz8667 I’d love to own a horse brave or broke enough to let me shoot from horseback.

[@davidcruz8667]

@@alecnolastname4362 I hear you. It takes a little bit of training. Also a lot of work and attention to detail on behalf of the rider. Cavalry mounts in the 19th century even went through a training regimen before rehearsing battle tactics. Sort of like boot camp for horses.

[@thecynic75]

"Segmented grippy bit" Ian back with the overly complex technical language.

[@ther6sshieldmain937]

I mean, it is too tricky for the cavalry

[@FlashHawk4]

Because "Grip Zone" is trademarked by Springfield, clearly.

[@likydsplit8483]

I’m always amazed at the lengths inventors will go to work around the limitations of ammunition; and yet almost all firearms advances are predicated upon ammunition advances.

[@aspennnnnnnn]

I find it funny at how slowly weapon designers seemed to want to advance ammunition, you would think that the design and eventual widespread adoption of cartridges would have happened a lot sooner. My interest in guns had only seen me researching their history in the past couple years and until then I had no clue that even during the old west era and stuff cartridges weren't common. So many guns we know in movies and stuff to have been converted to accept cartridges were far more common at the time as unconverted. Just a thing to think about I guess.

[@Steve.Cutler]

​@@aspennnnnnnn one big lie in cowboy movies is how easily they waste ammo. Ammo was not wasted like that in real life.

The Dr. Seuss Gun. "Look at this pristine Greene carbine with such a wonderful sheen."

[@texasviking1]

Calle Söderberg 🤣😂😂🤣🤣

[@likydsplit8483]

Can you shoot it from a box? Can you shoot it at a fox?

[@ther6sshieldmain937]

Will you prime it with a varmint? Will you jam it or bam it?

[@TheRogueWolf]

I wonder how many times in field testing the shooters accidentally pulled the "breech unlock" trigger.

[@Riceball01]

It probably happened a few times in early testing but I imagine that after a while the testers got used to it. But in active service during combat I wouldn't be surprised if it would have happened several times, esp. with new troops. But since I don't think that these carbines ever saw any action I guess we'll never know.

[@randombloke82]

Probably a few but it is fairly far forward so not that many that it would likely be a problem, plus (given that you still have to twist the barrel to unlock it) all that would really happen is that the gun would simply not fire: release the forward trigger, curse yourself for a fool, and try again with one that actually works.

[@murraystenhouse8469]

Since it's in front of the firing trigger I'd bet once per person at most tbh

[@StarSwarm.]

Few if any. Many firearms in the mid to late 19th century used a second trigger to either open the breech or as a set trigger.

[@aewhatever]

I remember those rolls of caps used in cap guns. They could be real iffy. So I can see why this concept really didn't take off

[@mileslong3904]

Heh my thoughts exactly.

[@calvingreene90]

Poor quality toy. = annoyed child. Poor quality munitions. = ANNOYED ARMY!

[@mikeholland1031]

Yes I could see that feed system failing if wet or muddy conditions, or just wear.

[@IgorOzarowski]

@@calvingreene90 what are they gonna do? Shoot him? With what?

[@calvingreene90]

@@IgorOzarowski Let's assume that only 30% of trigger pulls result is a shot being fired but five thousand men are aiming at you.

[@WingmanSR]

That "1" stamping on the stock that you said, 'we'll touch on that little later' @ 2:49. Yeah... It was never touched on, and now I need to know regardless of how immaterial it might actually be.

[@deptusmechanikus7362]

well, 1 (one, also called unit, unity, and (multiplicative) identity) is a number, and a numerical digit used to represent that number in numerals. It represents a single entity, the unit of counting or measurement. For example, a line segment of unit length is a line segment of length 1. It is also the first of the infinite sequence of natural numbers, followed by 2.

[@MrCh0o]

@@mephi71101 he did say that he'd accept an explanation regardless of how immaterial it might be, though. It was a totally asked for humorous comment

[@bruhmoment6625]

Dash71101 whoooosh

[@Vok250]

It's discussed at 8:58 in the video. That 1 is not the typical unit making seen on these rifles.

[@sorrenblitz805]

Well from what I know 1, is the loneliest number you could ever do, 2, as I'm told can be as bad as 1, it's the loneliest number since the number 1.

[@johnfisk811]

As a carbine it was well received in British trials maintaining 1o rounds per minute and free from fouling after 200+ rounds. It was the cartridges that let it down despite a variety of methods tried. Thin linen was the most promising. I believe the US Army went over to linen cartridges for the Sharps.

[@Asko83]

Despite being so complicated the carbine really does look like a good idea. Before metallic cartridges that is a smart design if only the paper/linen cartridges could be designed to be as good. Unfortunately for this design, metallic cartridges did start to appear and that made this an obsolete design.

[@jesusisalive3227]

@@Asko83 I think you could use 3d printing to come up with a cartridge for it today.

[@sorrenblitz805]

@@jesusisalive3227 and the pop cap tape? How do you go about recreating that?

[@JennyGormanRitter]

@@sorrenblitz805 cap guns 😁

[@mikeholland1031]

@@sorrenblitz805 wouldn't be hard. Looks like a reg primer would work anyway

[@matthewmoss1589]

Just a quick note on the Cape Mounted Rifles - It's very unlikely that the Cape Mounted Rifles (actually Riflemen) would have deployed to the Crimea. They were a colonial unit from South Africa and were heavily involved in the numerous Xhosa or Cape Frontier Wars. The Greene Carbines were probably believed to have given troops an edge against the far more numerous Xhosa tribes. I don't believe, but I may be mistaken, that the Cape Mounted Riflemen were a regular unit so the carbines were probably purchased through private or other governmental means - although it seems they never reached the Cape and were WD marked and stored at the Tower arsenal. Cool carbine, good video as always!

[@darkwhitebread]

Dude. Thats not green.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

That's why I said Greene, not green.

[@darkwhitebread]

Gun Jesus answered my shitpost by shitposting back. This must be one of the best days of my life. I've truly been blessed.

[@cnlbenmc]

+@@darkwhitebread+ TFW your comment responding to a comment has more likes than the original post.

[@CHaas-bn3xi]

Your my favorite gun channel I just love the way you explain these guns and your knowledge is endless THANK YOU

[@crosshp9266]

It's like an ashot shotgun from metro last light

[@cnlbenmc]

In Metro: Exodus it now has a double barrel modification so now twice the swing out fun!

[@Lavender_Fox]

@@cnlbenmc 4 barrel too

[@Vitalek42]

Благословляю этот комментарий

[@CorgiWrangler]

@@Vitalek42 Cyrillic to you too good sir

[@gabrielschake6259]

Yes and now I must build one that shoots a 12g for fun.

[@pete2347]

Great videos! I really enjoy your detailed descriptions and histories of these old firearms. Keep up the good work!

[@ben41281]

A little envious of you. You get to handle so many interesting firearms. Yet another interesting video. Keep them coming.

[@thescatologistcopromancer3936]

I've already watched this and the General Liu video, but I came to say today is the first time KZbin has EVER suggested your videos on my main feed.

[@peterhopkins4748]

Cool and interesting gun. Thank you for my daily fix of firearms Ian. FYI the Cape Mounted Rifles was a militia type unit so they would've used them in South Africa during the Boer, Zulu, or border dispute wars in Africa rather than the Crimea.

[@patanddanc]

Thank you this is one of my favorite guns on display at the Gettysburg visitor center, also the Wesson. Always wanted to see how it works. I never leave the building without a visit to there case.

[@kipthebunbun]

I love most guns that are classified as Break Action. This is break action since the gun's breech system consists of "breaking" the gun open, or just in this case pulling the barrel out and over. This includes double barreled shotguns (at least most) and many of Lancaster's old guns. I am not saying the real definition of break action, maybe it is but this is just my theory of break action firearms. And they're so cool, I don't know why, I just love break action guns, not that I dislike other types of guns, I just like the break actions the most.

[@balrajsingh-zp4wq]

Wonderful weapon thank you so much for this video

[@TheRockyRacoon92]

It looks like a fun black powder gun to shoot, I'd buy a modern reproduction if there was one.

[@minuteman4199]

You could likely get this one cheaper than a repro. The auction estimate is only 1800-2750.

[@USSEnterpriseA1701]

I'd be willing to bet it wouldn't be that difficult to make a 'sort of' repro set up to use metallic cartridges, but it would likely not be cheap. I'd think it would have to be the usual suspects like 45 Colt, 44-40, 38 special (maybe 357 mag if it's strong enough), but I think that would be a fun thing for the range.

[@defeatignorance8681]

@@USSEnterpriseA1701 Most .45 Colts operate at much higher pressures than the .357. The .45 Colt is a very powerful round when it isn't loaded way below what it is capable of handling.

[@USSEnterpriseA1701]

@@defeatignorance8681 Only if you use Ruger level loads. The Rugers that handle those loads are made on frames that were significantly beefed up to handle things like .44 mag. Compare the size of the cylinder and frame of a Blackhawk or old 'big frame' Vaquero to an Italian made replica and you will see the difference. Try loads meant for those Rugers in even a modern replica of a Colt 1873 SAA and you're going to end up with a grenade in your hand, just ask Elmer Keith. By far most .45 Colt loads are still black powder pressure for all of the replicas and remaining originals.

[@StarSwarm.]

Minute Man This one went for over $4K. None have sold cheap because there’s simply very few of them and they’re an extremely interesting firearm.

[@Qsaws_]

It looks rather greyish to me

[@mikefenton5634]

Qsaws boo! Lol

[@c4tze]

lol

[@callsignbard6655]

Darn, beat me to it.

[@StenCheesemonger]

I love how almost all elements of a "modern" firearm are in place in this carbine, even if in different ways or arranged differently. That is one really cool gun. And I could see something but with metallic cartridges like that work nowadays even if it's purpose is just to be a cool toy.

[@bradleymorgan8223]

The way those locking lugs work is so satisfying to me

[@DeadBaron]

That primer tape concept is so freaking cool! I never knew about that! Kind of sucks it never caught on but I bet there's a very good reason for that.

[@j.sagiechode]

OMG! the close ups on that metal to wood fitment!!!! 170+ years old and that fit and finish is electronmicroscopic, don't see craftsmanship like that anymore.

[@gregdaweson4657]

Still dont

[@Gojiro7]

when it has its flip sights up, anyone else think this thing suddenly looks kinda Grenade launcher-ish?

[@ianmacfarlane1241]

Gorgeous piece of history. Surely to make it feasible it was the hypodermic needle type mechanism that needed altering. I'd have thought that a sturdier 'needle' with a larger internal diameter would have allowed the use of a sturdier cartridge. Like with many of the firearms featured on Forgotten Weapons it seems like one alteration would have made a significant difference to the usability of the piece.

[@adrienperie6119]

The heavy barrel and cylindrical action make it look like a magnificent steampunk wallgun/shotgun.

[@CNYahla]

Does anyone came across a video with a live shooting demonstration of a tape priming system?

[@zachbenjamin2440]

Cool idea for an early breech loading carbine. I’m sure it would have been just as popular as the Sharps carbine and rifles if they figured out an effective paper or linen cartridge.

[@RK-ej1to]

I like all the weird breech loaders they came up with before the break action. Like you’d think the break would have been the first thing anyone thought of.

[@musikSkool]

Wow, just wow. Forget bolt-action, now THAT is some simple locking-lugs.

[@mkvenner2]

I have been waiting for you to do a video on the Greene rifle( in the future)

[@memecommandomike4659]

The Cape Mounted Rifles never fought outside of (modern day) South Africa. In 1855 the 2nd Cape Mounted Rifles was formed as a paramilitary mounted police force, that would be my best guess as why these carbines were commissioned.

[@ajeje1996]

That's insanely cool

[@davidpowell5437]

Recently - Feb 2022 - the Royal Armouries channel posted a video about these guns - Worth a look for additional details!

[@eirikmellesdal]

Super cool firearm. I want one!!!!!

[@richardriley8906]

Ian yor great. Always interesting. I shre your videos with my Veteran Brother in law 25 yrs combat decorated army seargent. G,B,America

[@jgedutis]

Looks just like my childhood cap gun 6 shooters. I can't imagine a tape primer system being a good idea for military use unless it was waterproof.

[@chrischiampo8106]

Cool Carbine

[@CaptainShiny5000]

Any chance that we could get a shooting video for a breechloading gun with paper cartridges at some point? Would be very interesting to me actually see how useful these things actually were in reality.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/gXTNm5V6g5uDfbs

[@CaptainShiny5000]

Thanks! I thought I watched all of your videos at this point but I appearently missed that one.

[@troy9477]

Neat. The breech system seems a little cumbersome. The tape priming system is a great idea. However, i wonder about reliability, since the spark path is not straight. I'm always surprised at things being such large caliber. It seems that a 40 or 42 caliber with about a 200-220 gr pointy bullet might give better initial velocity, better retained velocity (due to aerodynamics) and have a flatter trajectory and greater effective range. The cavalry was already using a different caliber from the infantry, so commonality was not an issue. Just my ramblings. Great video as always. Thank you

[@alexanderwaterman4179]

so my question is this, maybe I missed it in the video, but did you say whether or not this could be fired with the barrel "unlocked". or is there some type of built in safety, because if there isn't that seems like it would be a huge problem

[@jonathanjollimore4794]

Hey man those books were cool :)

[@NoosaHeads]

I would love to buy one of these.

[@JKJ1900]

Please do one on the Greene bolt action rifle soon. I really want to know how well it's, 2nd bullet behind the powder load, gas-seal method worked.

[@s.h.v.c2865]

What was the number 1 on the stock at 2:42?

[@MrMaffy96]

The number of stocks attached to the gun.

[@failer_]

Actually the number of markings stamped in the stock ahead of the patchbox.

[@philips.5563]

And here I was thinking it indicated capacity.

[@MarkBeemer]

It was his gun, Mr. Krabs! He was number one!

[@johnfisk811]

The stamp is identical to the '1' used to indicate that a weapon was in the 1st Class category (i.e. was for front line unit use).

[@sorrenblitz805]

Weird to know that I knew paper bullets existed because of a cowboy themed shooter game from the 90's, it showed the ammo in the gun as little card like tabs above the total number of ammo you have for it, lot of em used paper bullets but no percussion caps.

[@johjoh4571]

i'd have loved one if i lives at the time. such a beautiful and i assume fast firing design.. but jesus i bet that pivot point would bend if you crossed your eyes at it

[@yaz12748]

First thought "wow that sure is a carbine"

[@natehanawalt2808]

RDMR - Royal Durban Mounted Rifles. A body of Colonial troopers from Natal. It would fit with the bit about the Cape Mounted Rifles.

[@patricktracey7424]

cavalry have never been known to be the sharpest tools in the box, the horse pretty much do all of there thinking for them.

[@larry1824]

Reloading that in heat of battle musta been scary or crazy

[@PrismaShadow]

Such an amazing and innovative design! Shame it didnt sell too well tho,a reproduction would be interesting

[@ThEsTrAnGeOnEe]

I actually really like the idea of the gun’s whole reload system. It’s kinda like the bolt action’s grandpa

[@charlesm6994]

its amazing how much a brass casing simplified gun use. I wonder why the idea took so long to happen. are cartridges just that hard to make it needed more modern metallurgy?

[@ewanwilson1974]

Segmented grippy bit. I believe that is the technical term.

[@Phos9]

Haha I often wondered if I were to put a powder charge into a cap gun if it would fire, and it seems this was the real article.

[@carlfuhr8989]

reminds me of the old caps for cap guns

[@nigelmchugh5541]

Very interesting video, Ian! Any chance you could do one on the Spencer pump action shotgun? Regards, Nigel.

[@VegasCyclingFreak]

That cap assembly is a lot like a toy cap gun :-o

[@skullstabber9]

I hope the priming system worked better than the old roll cap guns I remember having a pair of them when I was a kid and the feed mechanism In those things never worked very well

[@siofna9709]

Nice tiny carbine and very tricky :-). Have you ever made a video about the Gallager Carbine. I heard the cavalry don´t like them too.

[@linksbro1]

"Not to be confused with the Greene Rifle" *immediately calls the rifle a carbine*

[@ErikJensenDetroit]

DID YOU JUST ASSUME MY RELATIVE BARREL LENGTH?

[@jackspade5316]

I'm kinda surprised no one tried using a thick cardboard-ish tube with thinner, recessed paper end piece.

[@lukehorning3404]

What is not to like for the day that’s awesome

[@yoitired]

Really slick for the time, putting primers on a paper strip is a brilliant idea, wonder why more black powder guns didn't do this? Rain must have rendered these guns pretty ineffective tho, imagine if a squad of bowmen waited til it was pouring then attacked a squad armed with these guns.

[@oddspaghetti4287]

That Maynard's primer mechanism seems like a wonderful idea, i wonder why it didn't see more widespread use, i guess it must have not been too reliable or something.

[@johnfisk811]

The British were enamoured enough of the Maynard tape primers that some of the Sharps cavalry carbines ordered at a similar time to the Greenes were equipped with Maynard tape primers. The Greene was eventually overtaken by the Westley Richards carbine before a satisfactory cartridge could be made.

[@codemiesterbeats]

seems to me the Maynard patent would be awesome (for the time) if it worked well in practice... I am not sure if it did or not... but I would guess there was some catches to using it.

[@NickShl]

Just wondering why they can't make barrel a little bit loose(remove rifling) where cartridge should be loaded. Then rifling will hold bullet in place and needle can punch much tighter wrapping. During firing gas from burning powder makes enough pressure to move bullet trough barrel. As example: I successfully loaded and fired .22LR bullet(5.7 mm) with Crosman 1322 air pistol(caliber .22 but 5.5 mm). And it was pretty tight to load...

[@Davidautofull]

this should have been a hint to make a cartridge or it could have been retro fitted for a rimfire 54 cal cartridge then even centerfire.

[@Phoenix407]

Reminds me of the little kids cap guns wonder if the toys strip will work on the real gun

[@theodorehazel6920]

This is like nearly revolitionary for its time

[@nullachtfuffzehn8407]

like something between the sharps and gallagher.

[@carloscardona6587]

I like this carbine mechanic, twist-pull load b challenge on horse or land

[@josephaugustine4876]

I bet that firing system is bloody unreliable

[@mikekemp9877]

can you use ordinary copper caps on it if say you ran out of caps it looks like you can

[@a_shuchu_601]

mike kemp Ian replied to my same question that yes, usual caps can be used

[@mikekemp9877]

thanks very much

[@GovtWatchdog]

Not sure about that. Perhaps on a wet day. But it looks like if the first cap doesn't ignite, you just squeeze the trigger again.

[@LoneWolf051]

lets mud test it xD

[@jesusisalive3227]

Cool rifle! I wonder if you could run this with paper cap gun caps? Also I bet you could use 3d printed cartridges now, there are many many printer materials that you could test.

[@fancyultrafresh3264]

There are many things too tricky for Cav, such as remembering they aren't infantry.

[@ST-zm3lm]

I’d imagine that needle would need frequent replacement

[@AINGELPROJECT667]

Wondering why they didn't just have it on a hinge like a break-action instead of that awkward-on-horseback system.

[@kennethhowell1272]

Are the barrels interchangeable ? Must have planned on using in dry environments with the paper caps.

[@rakninja]

i'd hate to have to try to use that thing from horseback. i'd definitely prefer a revolver and sabre.

[@bigchooch4434]

One thing I still can't understand about firearms: Why, when firing at long distances, would you RAISE the sight? Surely you would want to lower the sight to compensate for bullet drop, and if you lower the muzzle to line up the sight with the target, you'll be firing much lower than what the sight is telling you.

[@clydebalcom8252]

I'm wondering if the Green carbine could fire the same cartridge for the Sharps rifle/carbine?

[@Ecocristero3]

@Clyde Balcom No sir it wouldn't.

[@brucebaxter6923]

I had wondered if anyone used cap gun rolls.

[@andrewince8824]

I actually think a shotgun style lever and simple break action would have made this viable. Pop the lever, gravity drops the action open, drop in the cartridge, snap it closed by possibly pushing the barrel against ones leg (being sure not to cover oneself). The needle would still be able to piece the cartridge. Maybe even add a small blade of some kind to rip the back of the cartridge when closing the action.

[@sashasoule4585]

Is there a blackpowder gun with an automatic primer system like this that works reliably and also has a more fluid loading mechanism?

[@coreybenson3122]

It looks like that in a pinch, one could possibly use a traditional percussion cap instead of the priming paper. Would this work?

[@ricardodelano2205]

A Civil War Bolt Action! Paper Cartridges Shoots the Greene Rifle

[@FloofyKusus]

I guess that's similar to what the Prussians did, except for the primer tape. I wonder what they did right to make the paper loads work.

[@FloofyKusus]

Just googled it. The Prussians included the primer in the paper shell. A needle then punctured it to set it off, making these rifles the first of a whole new kind.

[@2Stonefly]

What was the "1" by he patch box for?

[@cyclonetaylor7838]

The British used this weapon during the Mauri Wars. They were issued to the New Zealand Forest Rangers. ( a military unit - not game wardens )

[@TheDubsmannie]

Cyclone Taylor, do you have any proof of this? Only around 40 carbines were ever issued and every one I've seen is marked RDMR. I thought the Forest Rangers were issued with Calisher & Terry Carbines.

[@cyclonetaylor7838]

@@TheDubsmannie Not proof, only a memory of this being referenced in a military history magazine article published in the late 1960's.

[@TheDubsmannie]

@@cyclonetaylor7838 Thanks Cyclone, I'll check the New Zealand connection. I don't suppose you can remember which magazine? I have been researching these carbines for years and suspect that Ian got Riversdale District Mounted Rifles from me. This was a South African unit in the 1850s but all the records have been 'cleansed', so a dead end.

[@nicknumber1512]

3:50 Ian: Of course you'll notice that this has two triggers. The rear one is for firing; the front one is for Immature me: Fun?

[@user-xy3gt2ox8m]

凄い機構だな。。

[@Tubajock2]

is there a reproduction of this cool thing?!

[@vatsalrathore1234]

Why it seems that the video is playing at 1.5 playback speed

[@jordanhorst6]

I like it

[@jacobrow11]

What does it fire giant flintlock rounds

[@galaktikhiker]

What was the 1 in front of the patchbox for it was never "touched on later" .......btw none of the replys to this question being asked already are sufficient. Please dont reply if your not Ian McCollum

[@Rickster621]

Where is your SBR stamp Ian?