Roper Repeating Rifle - An Early Type of Cartridge

While the design for the Roper rifle and shotgun originally came from Sylvester Roper, Christopher Spencer played a very significant role in its production. When sales of the Spencer lever action rifle dissolved at the end of the Civil War, Spencer needed something new to work on, and Roper recruited him into his company. Roper’s design was for a shotgun that used a 4-shot rotary magazine and reusable steel cartridge cases.
By late 1868, however, sales of the Roper shotguns had not reached a profitable level (most likely because the price of the guns began at $60, making them very expensive for the time) and the company was put up for sale. Spencer was able to put together enough money to purchase it himself, and he moved the machinery to Hartford CT and set up a new production line. In addition to shotguns, Spencer also made a .40 caliber rifle version of the gun. The prices remained too high, though, and could not sustain the company’s operations. In response, Spencer began taking on contact forging work, and that proved to be a much more profitable and sustainable business model. The company was reformed in 1872 as Spencer & Billings, and would leave the gun business behind.
Spencer would go on to invent the automatic screw machine, and make a not insignificant fortune on that idea - which is still widely used in the manufacturing industry today.
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[@trr94001]

Always nice to hear about a 19th century engineer who doesn't die penniless.

[@matthayward7889]

Another thing to love about FW, you learn as much about the men behind the guns, as the guns themselves

[@Mrdrcaptaintroy]

Wow! I had no idea spencer invented the automatic screw machine. At work we use them to manufacture pipe fittings. And our machines are close to a hundred years old

[@joshcrd7925]

Mrdrcaptaintroy I didn't know that either. We have 25 of them where I work. We make hydraulic hose fittings.

[@LiamAcerbus]

Warms my heart to hear how successful the guy ended up being with his other inventions.

[@RockIslandAuctionCompany]

For such an unusual mechanical design, it flows beautifully from the receiver to the stock. A LOT of time and care went into these.

[@downhillchris2809]

I agree, this is a fantastic looking rifle.

[@KhanGirey]

You want to hook me up with one of them?

[@RockIslandAuctionCompany]

Just one?

[@KhanGirey]

I mean... I've got an army to arm and all. So, two?

[@JL-dance]

KhanGirey you sound russian....

[@USAAmutual45]

I recall from Marcott that Spencer built a coal powered car to drive around in when he was ~18 years old, until the town council told him it was too loud and smokey. A clever guy.

[@Taistelukalkkuna]

Massive props to Spencer(sp?) for having sense to diversify, and not get obsessed on gun making.

[@jimvandemoter6961]

I know I'm not the first one to make this observation, but I find it ironic that these early american gunmakers were in states that now have the most restrictive gun laws. Another great video Ian. Thank you.

[@wierdalien1]

Not really. that's just were the centres of America were at that point

[@Grenadier-]

Jim Vandemoter I won't say we have the strictest gun laws, a lot of European countries have far more restrictive laws. We are still quite blessed with the openness of our laws.

[@Tobascodagama]

Yeah, Alistair has it. The centers of gun development and manufacture in the past were basically just the centers of *all* industry and manufacturing -- not to mention population -- at the time. This is directly related to urbanisation, and it's urbanisation that led to those states having tighter gun laws.

[@gagemcclure3377]

JohnFrumFromAmerica No, just the most populated. Californias main export is stuff like food, while, to give an example, Kentucky's main export is highly advanced Aero-Space technology.

[@kenibnanak5554]

Some of today's states didn't exist yet. Some were still undeveloped territories. Gun making back then required factory facilities, transport systems, and usually running water to power machinery. By the time the western territories became states and the railroad system was in place the US gun market was well saturated.

[@Aporqpyn]

You might've spoken more about Roper, he died an interesting death. I haven't watched the revolving shotgun video yet so maybe you covered this there. Roper invented a steam powered "velocipede" that was capable of 40 mph. He died at age 72 riding it on a race track. He also invented the removable shotgun choke.

[@kmoecub]

Ian did speak about Mr. Roper at greater length in the video about his shotgun.

[@infernaldaedra]

I upvoted because this is awesome.

[@McRocket]

Very interesting. I really like that you seem to always include these back stories. BTW - $60 in 1870 is about $1,075 today.

[@sirmrmcnuggets1608]

I think this is the first time i've seen an open bolt single action rifle. What a beauty!

[@johnoneil9188]

I really find it interesting through how many iterations and test versions and prototypes weapons like the repeater rifle have gone before they reached the design we know today. The inventors of back in the day certainly didn´t run out of methods any time soon to make a weapon do the same thing.

[@ToastyMozart]

The creativity is always interesting to see. You don't see as much of that in terms of operating mechanisms these days now that repeating arms are something of a solved problem.

[@aldenconsolver3428]

When I was younger I worked in the machine shop of Cessna aircraft, we had a row of screw lathes and those lathes worked all the time. Usually 3 shifts. That invention should have made a solid future for this guy. A hundred years later it was a necessary machine in the construction of aircraft - which he would have never seen or heard of :)

[@ThePicaretoKid]

Probably not the first or the last to make this comment, but Ian's love for what he does and his extensive knowledge not only on each gun that he displays but also the history behind them and the gun industry in general are two of the aspects of this channel that makes me come back every single upload.

[@therugburnz]

Thanx again Ian, I always enjoy learning about revolving actions when used in non-pistol formats. Peace be with u.

[@spinnyboi6700]

the concept of revolving rifles and shotguns has always fascinated me, theyre awfully rare because not a lot have been made but i love seeing and learning about existing examples

[@MikeBaxterABC]

6:48 OMG :) ... so happy to hear this ... NOBODY talks about Automatic Screw machines! :) ... In my past I worked for many years as an Automatic Screw machine setter and operator ... I set and ran two machine simultaneously, an ancient Browne and Sharpe Automatic 2G made during WW2 ... and an odd ball German Traub machine, that require a LOT of baby siting to keep it going :)

[@legionitalia309]

Spencer Billings drop forged wrenches are very common, cool to see there is a firearm connection. Would have never guessed that the two were related. Always learn something!

[@T3hderk87]

Seriously, I have given up trying to expect what will come next with Ian. Thank you so much for sharing this odd piece of history with us!

[@dankdark974]

It makes me happy to hear about successful gun designers

[@minutemanqvs]

The sights are very nice!

[@driftcat7076]

Gun Jesus has graced us with his presence once more

[@Charok1]

And a good story. More interesting than the gun. Good thing that guy was fired, haha.

[@baron8107]

Ace 2099 PRAISE BE!

[@youtoob4life]

Sad you guys don't realize how tired he is of this "gun Jesus" thing.

[@phileas007]

Hail, gun Jesus! He didn't chose this fate, fate chose him ...

[@youtoob4life]

He hasn't said anything because he cares about his audience and doesn't want to create conflict. But, to people who can actually read the situation, it's obvious he's over it. In fact, I do recall a video on the InRange channel where Karl mentions it and Ian immediately shuts it down. I'll try to find it and post a link. And you don't have to be "close" to someone to realize when something bothers them. Tell me, how would you feel if you were in his place and every video you posted had dozens, if not more, of the same old comment that lost it's humor months ago? When was the last time you saw him even acknowledge a comment with that joke?

[@Lazarus7000]

This is a beautiful and fascinating piece! I believe that the first such steel cartridges were used with the earliest machine guns -early Gatling guns, Gardner guns, the "Coffee Mill" gun, and similar externally-actuated machine guns.

[@Elajas123]

Made my day as always!

[@mikelynx4953]

Another cool and informative video, I did know about the Spencer story just not about how this mechanism worked. Got to go watch the shotgun one now, thanks Ian.

[@infernaldaedra]

Roper actually designed and built his own boats, and cars. He built his first coal-powered automatic wagon in the 1860s. This guy basically owned a car he took to work during the Civil War while designing this rifle. . . think about that for a second... He might also debatably be the first car owner in the United States as he was building his Horseless carriage before Henry Ford was even born. This guy was definitely ahead of the times and was a genius in design and manufacture no doubt. Oh yeah he also might have invented the motorcycle in 1867 as a steam powered velocipede.

[@childrenofcod5866]

This rifle is gorgeous man

[@nestrac]

My first thought was " That looks familiar " and then he mentioned the revolving shotgun. My God..I actually learned a little and remembered some of it...

[@Perktube1]

I find it amazing how many different actions have been invented for guns that are very similar in size and shape, though some of these differences may be subtle in a few guns.

[@ianmacfarlane1241]

Beautiful gun & an interesting story.

[@harvestn9841]

You could say he ROPED Spencer in!😏🕶👌=>😎

[@57WillysCJ]

Spencer invented the turret lathe. He and Roper together made a potent team. At least Roper will be remembered for the shotgun choke. He died after crashing his steam powered cycle 40 mph on a track. I believe where people mistake the turret lathe as a screw machine is the name and the fact that Roper and his son produced screw making equipment.

[@fighterairplane]

Great job

[@nokithecat]

Very unique action Thank you for sharing this bit of history Great Channel too ! ! !

[@joshkiper1773]

Nice Video Ian, as ALWAYS

[@brbilheimer]

Wow, I actually see one right as it goes up. As always s great video. I just wish I could afford to bid on some of these cool arms.

[@DonnieELove]

Spent many a night running screw machines but never realized that they where invited by Spencer.

[@henrymach]

Gorgeous stock on this gun

[@iac4357]

That rear sight is Years ahead of its time !

[@tadget0566]

Gun evolution from the 1860’s till 1900 is amazing you can see with hindsight where everything was going. Think box magazine straight pull from this

[@dontimberman5493]

I really like this one almost as the BP revolving 10gage

[@Lucius1958]

A bit of info on Roper's death: It was 1896, when Roper was in his 70s. He had just built a new, improved model of his steam motorcycle, using a "Columbia" bicycle given to him by Col. Pope, and rode it in a race against several other (regular) cyclists. He beat them handily, reaching 40 mph: apparently, on the last lap, he had got up to nearly 60 mph, when he suffered a sudden heart attack and crashed. His last words were reportedly, "too fast, too fast..." You can see a replica of the 1896 model on the "Pete's Garage" channel.

[@codymoncrief8478]

I do like the hammer cam-over locking system

[@scottpaul7427]

One of the most interesting stories about Spencer is how he got the US to adopt his carbine. Apparently the army hadn't shown interest, so he walked right into the White House (without an appointment) carrying a gun and ammunition to show to President Lincoln. Lincoln himself ended up testing the rifle on what is now the National Mall and really liked it.

[@oldesertguy9616]

That is beautiful. It's hard to find wood that looks like that these days.

[@gk.spinoza]

Thanks for yet, another interesting video about another amazing firearm from my favorite century for firearm development and innovations🔫🔫🔫🔫🔫

[@troy9477]

Very interesting history. I wonder how well the steel cases worked. I assume they held up well, with black powder pressures. Interesting mechanism. The short bolt fall notch is obviously the way to go if you have time to set it up. Great video as always. Thank you

[@nik2113]

Thank you for the video. I like this youtube channel.

[@sapper12b68]

Love it

[@DrHenley]

Thanks for the video, what a neat rifle! I am always amazed at the level of precision machining that was possible back then. Seems most firearm companies today are not capable of it even with all the fancy 21st century equipment. I would be sooo tempted to detach the bolt from the "hammer" and attach it to a lever, fire from a closed bolt, and viola! a level action revolving rifle. Maybe even have an ejection port on the right side.

[@guillermocingolani3307]

Excelente

[@mattelder1971]

He was just ONE conceptual step away from either a semi-automatic or fully automatic firearm nearly 30 years earlier than they were eventually built.

[@bonelessvegetal818]

Yes

[@natelulek4680]

It would be really cool if a company started reproduction of these rifles and chamber it in 45-70 or 444. I really appreciate these obscure designs. The Roper rifle and shotgun are really nice looking weapons.

[@badix5]

Nice video

[@alancrews2066]

Cool

[@astridingmarsdottir2400]

I can see why the cost prevented wide spread used. $60 in 1860s was equal to about $924 dollars today.

[@joshwells3782]

Its cool

[@laggymclaggylag5882]

James D. Julia has some really cool guns for the fall auction. I hope to see a video on a few of them in the near future.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

You will.

[@laggymclaggylag5882]

Thank you! I'm looking forward to it.

[@jonapplegate6695]

Mr. Roper. He was always poking his nose where it didn't belong.

[@trainsbangsandautomobiles824]

Thats actully a really neat system, too bad it didnt catch on, for the time it offered alot of firepower

[@YoshiIsHitokiri]

You should be a guy in a gun shop in rdr2 talking about the gun you select.

[@nstied]

$60 in 1868 is about $1000 today.

[@kenibnanak5554]

I must wonder if the firing pins ever stuck in the forward position and caused slam fires before the breech locked. That too could discourage sales. :)

[@SeraphinaPZ]

Gotta love those old stocks that look awful on the shoulder, "before ergonomics was a thing".

[@ToastyMozart]

I guess it'd be useful if you had to use the rifle as an improvised melee weapon, though yeah those things always look uncomfortable as hell.

[@webtoedman]

They certainly look uncomfortable, but in use the upper "tang" (for want of a better name) holds the weapon on the shoulder nicely. German and Swiss schutzen rifles have really exaggerated butts for stability when shooting offhand.

[@southronjr1570]

Sera You might wanna try it before ya knock it. I have been shooting Black Powder firearms for nearly 40 years along with plenty of modern "ergonomic" firearms shot also and the Schutzen style of stocks like on this gun are amazingly comfortable to shoot. It wraps itself around your shoulder and keeps in it the proper pocket during recoil allowing one to be incredibly accurate with it in the process. Now that's not saying it doesnt hurt like hell when you throw it up to your shoulder for a snap shot and are a little high or little low on the stock placement, generally something you only have to do once before you figure out not to do it.

[@chemistryofquestionablequa6252]

Same concept as the flip up butt plate on m1's,m14's, m249's and a lot of other guns. With a heavier rifle it's a god-send for firing off hand or kneeling.

[@jonmeray713]

100% wrong. These are ergonomic on the shoulder and can be used for shooting downwards(like off a bridge,or while laying down or crouched oddly) this is a big improvement over the slippery flat stock

[@dksdg]

Wow the screw machine inventor, much more influential in world history there than guns. Most of the world does not realize how much impact screw machines have made, especially pre NC.

[@philippefrater2000]

Very nice... 😎🇫🇷😇

[@MrPanzerDragoon]

Spencer: guns? Meh, screw you! I'm gonna make a screw machine instead. 😂

[@Gonzo.S.Thompson]

If the expensive guns were around $45 now, my house would look like an armory.

[@skyhop]

If I'm calculating it right, this would have been equal to around $4k in today's money.

[@fensoxx]

Anyone know of a top to bottom thorough biography of Spencer? I’d really like to know the nitty gritty on this guys life. Has got to be fascinating.

[@Hemimike426]

Looks like Spencer got...roped into this.

[@acidwizzardbastard]

Ba-dum. Your joke doesn't deserve a tshhh, sadly.

[@lucignolo8333]

Still waiting for an episode about the xm8

[@LuxsDeluxe]

when will you document a Stoner 63?

[@boomerisadog3899]

That stock looks like a medieval torture device.

[@maciejpociecha6357]

It's almost like they got to making this system almost really good, for the time; all they needed is to make the "hammer" reset a striker and close the bolt on each cycle... but just didn't take that final step. Or, they didn't want to add more parts and increase the price.

[@highlandoutsider8148]

Im wondering, while out shooting, instead of having a pouch of shot/powder/caps, would it be possible to have pretty much paper cartridges so you could reload the cases quicker with less messing about? or am I over estimating how much faff reloading them would be?

[@michaelw.6957]

Highland Outsider While I haven't loaded any Roper cartridges, I imagine it would be about like loading the chambers in a black powder revolver. I don't think they were meant to be reloaded immediately after the shooter fired them; the shooter would probably load several rounds at home (or camp) and bring them along for their excursion.

[@highlandoutsider8148]

Michael W. cool cheers man, that sounds like the way to do it, I was thinkin along the lines of those cases mite be pricey so how to get away with buyin th minimum, im a cheap skate like that lol.

[@ah-xt2uc]

God I thought revolver shotguns and rifles only existed in the Borderlands games. Sick.

[@TroopperFoFo]

Rossi/taurus makes one.

[@ChishioAme]

Remember: if it took more than one shot, you weren't using a Jakobs!

[@uncertaintytoworldpeace3650]

TroopperFoFo the circuit judge

[@chrischiampo8106]

Can you Shoot one of these Ian would like to see the accuracy and function of one 😎👍🏼🇺🇸

[@ScottKenny1978]

For these really old guns, a usable conversion is that $20 then is about $1200 today. One ounce of gold was $20, then, which gives a usable estimate today. Not perfect, of course, since the annual income was a lot less then. But this would have been a ~$3600 weapon.

[@davidstegman8147]

He had the right idea for the time but the cylinder makes it a pain to load.

[@MrSven3000]

nothing beats 19th cent. engineering

[@anter176]

wait, did the folding front sight have a bead on it that i presume you could aim with?

[@TheLewras]

It looked like there were 3 different front sight options to use. One when it is folded down, one inside the hood when it is up, and one on top of the hood.

[@Thrawnmulus]

I love how a gun can be invented and in military service for 10 years then be obsolete because of 1 innovation, but the M2 and M16 and AK platforms have been in use for decades (over 100 years for the M2) like name the big difference between the MP44 and the MPL, the MPL is lighter, the the MP44 was "obsolete" long before the MPL started testing.

[@smallpotatoguy]

why dont they used the sealed design on revolver rifles, wouldve solved the gas blowing on forearm problem, if its possible, would that be a better rifle than bolt actions? able to hold 6-8 rds and fire sa/da

[@LeonJakub]

If it used a steel cartridge how did it achieve an effective seal? Is there more to this gun than meets the eye?

[@jef_3006]

You've done three videos on this gun, and I still don't really understand how it locks. At 8:52 of this one, you mention that there is a toggle inside it which locks it, but I'd really like to see it. Anyone perhaps know the patent number?

[@tehgreatvak]

"oh no my my rifles and shotguns aren't selling well and I'm making millions with my other inventions and forgings, woe is me" -Christopher "the automatic screw machine" Spencer

[@unknownartist47]

tehgreatvak m

[@LuxsDeluxe]

pretty sad it didn't get to be fired

[@-Tme]

I would love to get a roper shotgun and get 25 cartridges made to shoot a round of skeet with!

[@joericher10]

Am I right in thinking that this is the same Christopher Spencer who designed the Spencer Carbine deployed during the ACW?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Yep.

[@ZGryphon]

One of the critical components of the automatic screw machine is a part called the lead screw half-nut. I think machinists must not get out much.

[@MatthewCochrane9622]

I'm just curious why Spencer didn't design the action to not lock all the way back, but instead simply come to a rest on the 'firing notch' automatically? Do you believe the sear couldn't handle that kind of stress in a rapid fire situation, and could accidentally slip past the firing and safety notches and fire? Or do you believe people in this era simply wouldn't trust a gun that 'slaps forward' after loading as if it's firing on it's own? You'd think it'd be easy to train to simply sweep the hammer back and let go, operating the action and getting the action back into the 'firing notch' rather than stopping at an open bolt.

[@MoriShep]

a revolvinng rifle that dose not have the issue of burning your off hand when using the front grip.

[@caeserromero3013]

You mean K Mart didn't sell Roper ammo in the 1860's??

[@spairus4492]

Wait, the pump action shotgun didn't sell well? You mean initially?

[@mattsamoto4451]

What no Rail for a civil war optic??

[@danilonakazone386]

Didn't Ian showed a similar shotgun like this?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Yes, I did a couple years ago.

[@RaeSyngKane]

If a replica of this gun were made today would it be considered a black powder or a repeating rifle for legal reasons? Basically, would it fall under the Destructive Device law for its bore size if it was chambered for 12ga.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

This rifle version is .40 caliber.

[@RaeSyngKane]

Thanks for the response, I was wondering more about the legislation though. Do you have any idea whether it falls under the category of black powder rifle or sporting rifle? Do they consider this kind of thing to be a cartridge rifle or a black powder gun with multiple loadable "barrels"? Is this style covered under black powder exemptions?

[@schmeissergod]

Yet another Roper

[@DavidM-um2uk]

6:50 Now I miss the ex