Shooting the Thompsons: Comparing the 1921, 21/28, and M1A1

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Having gone through the whole series of Thompson submachine guns, now it's time to take them out to the range! I was quite curious to see how the different variations would handle side by side, since they have several significant differences. The Cutt's Compensator and the changing rate of fire can both be expected to have a noticeable impact on the shootability of the guns.
I went in expecting to prefer the World War Two M1A1 pattern, and was rather surprised to find myself actually liking the 1921 model best. It's very high rate of fire actually worked very well, with less noticeable vibration and sight disruption than either of the other types. Its sights are close to useless, and it is both heavy and awkward to handle - but I can see why it developed the following it has!
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[@Sreven199]

I NEEDS MA MONEY, Y'SEE??? Killed me. Ian is having way too much fun at this auction.

[@762x51mm]

Is this a movie quote ?

[@mfree80286]

Paraquote? Fanciful repurposing? Not sure what to call it :)

[@mfree80286]

How do you not have fun with Tommy and the gang?

[@NineToFiveGamer]

Hahaha i literally read this AS he was saying it. Fucking gold

[@frbe0101]

An then gun jesus entered the temple and he brought three tommies and he saw the coins being exchanged and he demanded his coins, and all saw and all understood that the oldest tommy is the fastest tommy and the best tommy.

[@TheHacknor]

5:18 Gun Jesus terrorising rural banks [1921 recolourised[

[@fjakavazda1298]

I see Gun Jesus comment I press like.

[@tlshortyshorty5810]

Gun Jesus flipping the money-changer's tables in holy anger [1921 recolourised]

[@PreezyFB]

Florida Man who went by the name Gun Jesus on a robbing spree [1921 recolourised]

[@joestueckrath5275]

Ian is confirmed as baby face nelson

[@МихайлоРостов]

@@joestueckrath5275 Friend, some of your foldin' money has come unstowed!

[@ernestoleon2086]

I believe you, but my Tommy Gun don't!

[@sonofnator6096]

Keep the change ya filthy animal

[@Patriotusa44]

Get down on your knees and tell me you love me.

[@KlaustheViking]

Imma give ya the count of 3... to get yeh lousy... lying... low-down, fore-flushin carcass, OUT MAH DOOR!!!

[@KlaustheViking]

Keep the change ya filthy animal... *fires a few shots*... and a happy new year

[@SwordOfApollo]

Ah, yeah...Angels With Even Filthier Souls. Great movie! 😉

[@JohnLeePedimore]

Looks like the lower cyclic rates had more to do with reducing ammo consumption than improving controllability.

[@dentistguba]

makes sense with losing the drum mag.

[@mrstarfishh33]

@@dentistguba the drum is less reliable also

[@riverstyxarmory9782]

Pretty much. At the time, only 20rd sticks and 50/100rd drums existed. Military didn't really like the drums, so adoption was based on the use of sticks.

[@genghiskhan6809]

And hard/expensive to produce.

[@linokleinmeuleman5233]

I tought the same ,i like the 1921 version .

[@seangannon6081]

“...in front of me I have a selection of Thompson sub machine guns.” That is a sentence that everyone should be able to say at least once in their life, and also guarantees a very good day.

[@patrickpeters6016]

No free healthcare. Free submachine guns! lol

[@Biggusdickus721]

Sean Gannon it’s like a wine tasting but badass and American

[@leecrt967]

I've done it. About 20 years ago. As much fun as you can have with your pants still on. Fired just about all the major combatants auto weapons from WW1 to Korea that day, right up to a Maxson Mount.

[@NafeeDoesStuff]

Sigh, hope I do get to go to america, shoot a few guns Currently a South Asian kiddo

[@michaelmckinnon1591]

He had two Thompsons from 1921 and a 1970 M1A1 Commando actually

[@Robbaz]

As a 90's kid, "Chicago typewrite" reminds me of Resident Evil 4.

[@samyd0_0]

00's kid too

[@COLR13]

Robert stop slacking watching American videos and get back to editing....

[@SergeantPsycho]

Like and favorite this shit, become a Gangster today! Edit: I associate the Thompson with Blood.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

I knew the drum-fed Tommy Gun before it was cool. Blood, son.

[@Angryapprentice]

Didn't expect to see robbaz here

[@tammysilverwolf1085]

"I need my money, you's see?" Ian, you are a lovable dork.

[@monkeyship74401]

The local Women's shelter (W.I.S.H)(Women in Save Homes) has a fundraiser here every year and the past 2 years they have had a vendor that rents all sorts of full auto fun. I am looking forward to April and the next fundraiser so I can try some of the "Foreign" weapons. (MP 40 for example) The Thompson is pure fun to shoot and I will probably try it again too.

[@Ranger_James38]

Love the fact That the old fashioned 21 "typewriter" is still what holds up best.

[@zebdawson3687]

The newer models weren’t designed to be nicer, they were designed to be the exact opposite: cheap and easy to produce, in exchange for build quality. Of course the better built gun holds up better. 😂 It’s like a Lamborghini compared to an off-road go-kart.

[@dominicvasquez6469]

@Zeb Dawson The Lamborghini is better on a smooth asphalt road, while the off road go-kart is better off road. Which is kind of the difference between the 1928 and m1a1. Good luck driving a lambo off road. The go kart won't be as smooth, but it can actually perform off road.

[@Cody0ne5]

@@dominicvasquez6469 As was the M1A1 and the 1921 Typewriter. The M1A1 was built for rugged war conditions. The 1021 Typewriter was built to be pampered and only used in the BEST of conditions.

[@eifnsmwkc]

​@@Cody0ne5why are you making shit up

[@phoenixrising4573]

Gun jesus: check 21 Thompson with drum: check Compiler complete, nirvana achieved.

[@doriangray2347]

kyndal anne yes exactly

[@TheBurningEngram]

but he didnt hipfire it

[@michaelmckinnon1591]

He didn't cycle the action to safe the guns, it's a wonder he's still alive

[@phoenixwyvern355]

The Annihilator The Gangster The Veteran The Thompson has many names...but these 3 were what defined it

[@serhio4275]

You forgot "Chicago Typewriter"

[@flattire4243]

The choppa

[@chadwickbossman8803]

You forgot The “Headless Gunner” Most importantly

[@grzegorzbrzeczyszczykiewic5895]

"The Chicago piano" is my favorite one

[@simohayhafinnmesterlovesz8038]

The croat singer

[@gosonegr]

Gun Jesus reclaiming the temple from Merchants and bankers, CIRCA 33 AC, or 1925 AC -"The one who is free of sin, empty the drum mag", and did it, and he was pleased"

[@TheKodiak72]

WTF is AC? Its either AD if religious or CE if not.

[@gosonegr]

@@TheKodiak72 After Christ

[@TheKodiak72]

@@gosonegr that doesn't exist. There is BC. Before Christ. But after year 0. It's AD or CE

[@gosonegr]

@@TheKodiak72 well, English isnt my mother lenguaje, it is a direct translation

[@tlshortyshorty5810]

yes

[@johnbull1986]

I didn't know 1920s Chicago gangsters had Welsh accents.

[@loddude5706]

Dai Laffyn . . .

[@sobasicallyimbillcooper4543]

E

[@rmo52]

O’Banion’s distant relatives :)

[@itsconnorstime]

There was indeed a Welsh gangster from Chicago, Murray "the camel" Humpfreys.

[@sumvs5992]

Maybe it's just me being English, but Welsh accents sound more like thet are spoken from someone who is just constantly sad, and the voice justs ends up being monotone

[@mandrakevermilyea7488]

Be Ian Start patreon to buy 1921 Wins 1921 2Gun matches with 1921 Most KZbin views ever Win Internet.

[@Swarm509]

I would be 100% ok with him blowing a whole bunch of Patreon money, or asking for a gofund me, for the 1921 so he can do a whole bunch of work with it. And dare I say it..... mud test?

[@iranash1797]

@@Swarm509 you don't mud test transferable mg, that Thompson is worth like 28grand

[@jballew2239]

Be aware that not so long ago, there used to be subgun matches. Held fairly commonly in the 80's and 90's.

[@The1337guy1]

Oh but you do. Did you see the video where they mud tested the SIG 510?

[@DonnieBrasco-dy9yd]

@@The1337guy1 Those are gay compared to a Thompson.

[@dylankornberg4892]

Ian: can give incredibly detailed and nuanced descriptions of the mechanics, history, and feel of hundreds of different firearms. Also Ian at 4:00: “there’s a thing there.”

[@cykeok3525]

There do be a thing there tho!

[@codydavenport8429]

I'm from Texas and that "Chicago accent" hurt me.

[@nicholaspatton5590]

I'm in Ohio and it hurt me too.

[@TheGM-20XX]

I'm from Chicago....I'm wounded.

[@JericoLionhearth]

@Six Beer Math I guess you can call them a.... Chicago-type writer? I'll see my self out.

[@KnifeChatswithTobias]

I'm from Chicago and that wasn't a Chicago accent. That said, it was a pretty bad James Cagney impersonation!

[@gregormiller4037]

...I use to work in Chicago, I don't work there anymore...

[@alexanderm3504]

*Ian was a warrior. From the land of the midnight sun*

[@tsukishiro70]

With a Thompson Gun for hire. Fighting to be done.

[@macmillan2805]

The deal was made in Denmark. On a dark and stormy day.

[@lewiscaine8330]

So he set out for Biafra, to join the bloody fray.

[@dchil15]

In 66 and 7 they fought the Congo war.

[@theslingandjacket2337]

With his fingers on his triggers, knee deep in gore

[@kruinnbogdoir3661]

TRIPLE TIME TRAVEL

[@TheVillainInGlasses]

Unfortunately it also means no new videos for the next few days, so that sucks lol

[@missfit0199]

Good job 300 like

[@TheVillainInGlasses]

Gun Jesus made a mistake and linked the end cards to some videos that had been uploaded but not made public yet.

[@craigscott5661]

I own a WW2 28 Bridgeport Thompson and I have a buddy that has a WW2 M1. I prefer the 28 because they have better sights, finned barrel, take drum mags and you have the option of using a vertical fore grip. But both guns are awesome. Great pieces of history and an excellent investment.

[@NeonVars]

In a lot of ways the 1921 Colt Thompson were made like a sport rifle. Had the best metal and wood work and tightest specs compared to the rest of the future Thompsons. Sort of like the crown jewel of Thompson Sub Machine guns. Not surprised it was the most enjoyable to shoot.

[@KamikazKid]

Yeah, seems to be a pattern with good guns that their early models are better quality, and the military simplifies them to make them easier to mass produce.

[@john-paulsilke893]

This seems like a reasonable assumption. I believe you may be right about this although there is no target to show the actual difference in accuracy so it can really be shown. All that being said, since Ian has experience in shooting select fire guns we really have to agree with his assertion of control and your quality over quality assumptions.

[@fix0the0spade]

Heaviest gun with the lightest bolt, whilst the M1A1 is the lightest gun with the heaviest bolt. The relative amounts of mass moving/not moving must make a big difference to handling.

[@williestyle35]

You said it yourself: "..the 1921 *Colt* Thompson. We think differently of Colt today than the hard core precision sporting and military arms mass manufacturing company they were in the time of the first generation of Thompson guns.

[@drmachinewerke1]

It’s in the compensator

[@FairlyUnknown]

The slow-motion footage really shows how effective the compensators were at keeping the barrel level. Very cool video.

[@emtffzartman666]

I’m so jealous of your job... thanks for letting us live vicariously through you.

[@tedkier3264]

reenactor guy 'live vicariously' nothing! he makes me wanna live in a more 2nd ammendment-friendly state. i want my own fucking tommy gun !

[@tedkier3264]

@@sparkymax4290 if you figure total thompson's made minus late-made west hurley guns divided by total number of nuts like me who want one....chances don't look too good hey?

[@tedkier3264]

@@sparkymax4290 ..does that mean...? great! yer gonna pm me?

[@LoanwordEggcorn]

@@tedkier3264 I'd like to live in a free country that doesn't restrict production of new fully automatic arms or tax them. These are all infringements by government on an enumerated right and therefore clearly unconstitutional. Unfortunately the U.S.A. is no longer free.

[@dak4465]

I feel like his video actually clears up a good amount of misconceptions about the thompson in its many forms. Also personally i would takr one of the first ones. The 1921

[@shawnr771]

Any of them would work for me.

[@watsgoinonhere1]

It's weird, like, I want one with a horizontal grip, like the M1/M1A1, but I couldn't go without the drum mag, which the only the 1921/1928 support. I mean, I'm never gonna ACTUALLY get one anyways, so there's that.

[@williestyle35]

whatsgoingonhere1 , the original 1921 and 1928 Thompsons were offered for sale with horizontal fore grips at the original time of sale and can take the M1A1 style grips.

[@Reactordrone]

I like this part of the Goldilocks story the best.

[@theglacier3367]

I think besides removing the Cutts compensator from the M1A1, it appears to produce more recoil due to the design of the bolt. Watch the charging handle at the end of the video, side by side of 1921, and M1A1. Harder recoil impulse as the bolt bottoms out on the M1A1. Wonder if that's to do with the blish lock being removed, and the firing pin being changed from floating to fixed.

[@ryanbecquer3496]

Probably the comp mostly, could be springs and stuff wearing for the bolt bottoming or the other stuff you said minus the blish lock. As far as I can tell that’s a pseudoscientific locking mechanism that doesn’t actually do anything, maybe adds a bit more friction but as Ian said in his old videos it’s basically doing nothing.

[@Serketry88]

About that fixed vs mobile firing pin: on all previous version, that firing pin and it's out-of-battery safety move both ways. They're small, low-mass parts that make contact with the front of the receiver. In essence, the mobile firing pin is an accelerator, and removing it in the M1A1 directly reduced the rate of fire.

[@TheDfsgdfgdg]

I have no regrets about watching all of the videos in one night. NO REGRETS!

[@realkenpriest]

Just like my tattoo says, "NO REGERTS!"

[@Allan_aka_RocKITEman]

@@realkenpriest >>> 😄😄😄😄

[@roskcity]

*REGERTS*

[@J.Wolf90]

Not even a single letter? Haha great movie

[@sambolino44]

I was a lot more enthusiastic about full-auto guns back when I didn't have to pay for the ammunition myself.

[@zippymufo9765]

Strictly a rich man's game

[@stevepalpatine2828]

I felt that.

[@someguy2741]

I think he uploaded these but they officially arent released yet. On his video list he hasnt reached this video yet. Pretty cool we didnt have to wait!

[@DavidM-um2uk]

"Here in front of me, I have a selection on Thompson submachine guns." God, what I wouldn't give to be able to say that...

[@michaelsix9684]

for a weapon a 100 yrs. old, it still works well

[@jman0870]

@@michaelsix9684 I had the pleasure of shooting an M1A1 reweld. Thing ran like a champ. I’ll never regret doing it but I got to mag dump an M16 the same day and the M16 was so much cooler. Thompson’s are so heavy that they feel like you are shooting a really loud toy haha

[@GiggleBlizzard]

Dang, you should take that 20s gangster bit you did and send it back in time to one of the 20s/30s directors as an audition tape. I'm sure the rate of fire on that '21 is fast enough to make it possible.

[@TARider2]

That '21 definitely has that iconic sound that u recognize from movies and stuff

[@DaemonPrimarch]

As interesting a logistical error as it is for these unlisted videos to be linked in the annotations of the listed videos, I have to say that as always these are fantastically well-shot and informative. Thank you, Ian, for your continued educational service.

[@whyjay9959]

Who names their kid Daemon Primarch? Seriously.

[@matthewb391]

@@whyjay9959 The ruinous powers.

[@DaemonPrimarch]

Hive ganger parenting at it's finest.

[@nootnoot558]

5:17 a reenactment of valentines massacre. I NEED ma MONEY Ya see.

[@spyderxtra777]

living the dream Ian, living the dream.

[@josephcuevas8100]

22 dislikes...must have been with Sonny Corleone at the toll booth...

[@nerfensaege11]

When you're so sneaky and stick around to the credits and get gifted with this !

[@MauserMatt]

I have clocked my own M1 Thompson at 860 rounds per minute... A lot of it has to do with ammo types. I also have videos comparing the M1 bolt and the M1A1 bolt in my Thompson.. You can definitely tell the difference!

[@larrycooper9487]

Which bolt do you prefer and why?

[@realkingtv7885]

sure Kid

[@MauserMatt]

​@@realkingtv7885 ah, so you don't know how machine guns work?

[@realmajorx3698]

@@MauserMatt So which bolt do you prefer better and why?

[@MauserMatt]

@@realmajorx3698 the M1 bolt with floating firing pin. I just simply like the faster fire rate. Some people say, and they may be right, that the floating firing pin M1 bolt is also less prone to an out of battery detonation. But i don't think it's enough of a concern to not shoot the M1A1 bolt.

[@AgentTasmania]

I'd love to see an M1919 Thompson, if wikipedia is to be believed about it being a 1200rpm gun in .45ACP.

[@eliast9816]

AgentTasmania If it's only about the rpm and cal. then look at the Kriss Vector

[@FreeOfFantasy]

@@eliast9816 Open bold 1200/1500 rpm .45 ACP with

[@eliast9816]

First of all: The Vector fires from a closed bolt... And second: It's not hard to controll due to it's off-axis bolt travel.... Do your research before commenting

[@mekaerwin7187]

@@eliast9816 He may have, many people who have shot it consider the off-axis bolt travel to not be the grail that was hoped for.

[@eliast9816]

Well I have to admit that I have not shot it myself because the gunlaws were I live are very strict but as I've heared it's rather easy to controll for a 1200rpm .45acp and even easier then say the Thompson... But admittedly it's propably still a lot harder to controll then say a MP5 or if we stay with the .45s a UMP

[@oncameramastery]

It's gotta be impossible to fire one of those bad boys without making gangsta voices, I dont know how Ian held out until the end of the vid! 😊

[@zul448]

WELCOME TO THE WOOORRRLLLD OF TOMORRRROW!

[@jamesdenney9653]

That Cutts compensator really reduces the blowback. That, and I think the original bolt design diverts the gases above the shooters head. Plus, you have to consider that Colt production standards were HIGH and tolerances were probably much tighter than the AO and Savage runs. I mention that because there seems to be a lot more gas leaking around the bolts of the later models. The 21 you disassembled, though, shows what a beautiful piece of machining that weapon is. The controls may seem awkward by today's standards, but they are simple and intuitive. Exemplary of that old saw "they don't make 'em like they used to."

[@vvvppp6021]

But wait, THERE'S MORE!!!

[@utube1928]

M1A1 - Audie Murphy played himself in the movie and I thought it was interesting that he held the front strap to hold the muzzle down rather than holding the horizontal grip.

[@williestyle35]

Lots of U. S. soldiers were trained to use the sling to control full auto weapons in that time.

[@francoisvankempen]

You mentioned the M1A1 blowing more gas back at you. I think that's because the 21 and 28 were both blishlock mechanisms, whereas the M1A1 was reengineered to be a straight blowback

[@PikeyScott]

Absolutely awesome series of videos on the Tommy. Thanks for sharing with us.

[@petesjk]

From the side shots, the 1921 climbs quite a bit, especially compared to the 1928. The 1921 seems to recoil, or jump around a little less, which I’ll guess has to do with the additional weight of the bolt in the 1928 and M1. It looks like the design was optimized around the lower weight actions.

[@MauriceTarantulas]

21 and the drum wins hands down! Awesome vid seeing all those Thompson's. I'd love to see a battle of the subs like in real scenarios....like u did with the rifles...(maybe it's been done). So Thompson Vs sten Vs Suomi Vs ppsh Vs grease vs mp40 Vs baretta and see which jams more/accuracy over several distances n time taken to shoot X targets...(I guess though the PPsh with drum would win then 😉)((maybe without drum))

[@criffermaclennan]

Gun jesus has become Machine-gun mcollum!!!

[@keenanmcbreen7073]

That should be his Halloween costume!

[@christopherjohnston6343]

This is a pretty good depiction of advertised vs actual rate of fire

[@gionncaomhinmorpheagh4791]

What an absolutely brilliant series of vids on the Thompson! An immense amount of compelling and very interesting information not only on the various iterations of the weapon itself, but also on its history. What more could you want? It's small wonder that Ian has such a huge following. Many thanks for the uploads and keep doing what you're doing. MsG

[@detritus23]

From the slow motion, it appears that the compensator or the 21 is really helping with gas clearing. The A1 is not evacuating its bore very well, perhaps due to lack of air flow/vacuum at the muzzle.

[@patrickwaldron3984]

“I needs my money, you’s see!”- Sayith Gun Jesus, Amen.

[@troy9477]

Nice. Great series, and a fitting end-shoot all 3. The 1921 did seem to have the least muzzle travel, as well as the higher rate of fire. I wonder if the higher rate of fire makes the Cutts a bit more effective. There is more gas going through the compensator, so that makes sense. I'm sure there is a sweet spot where it works best, and above and below that spot it doesn't work as well. Based on your and some other SMG videos i have seen, there appear to be sweet spots with uncompensated guns, around 600 rpm and 800-900 rpm. Anyway, great job on all this. Thank you

[@seppesneyers3592]

The 21 is my favourite of the 3

[@doriangray2347]

seppe sneyers heck yeah class

[@RobVon]

Ian, I've got the good fortune to own a 1928AC the last several years. ACs were I believe parted together on left over 1928A1 receivers with the last "1" overstamped with a "C" that stood for Commercial and sold to LE agencies (TN Highway Patrol in this case) late/after the war after the M3 transition. I've got both the standard mil 1928 internals that give about 720rpm (Rem/UMC 230s) and mil internals modded to 1921 specs that give 990. The latter is much much easier to hit with as it just seems far smoother. As you say it is something about the harmonics that counter-intuitively makes the higher ROF more stable. They apparently hit the sweet spot by design or accident the first time around with 45ACP and gun weight, ergos such as they are, etc. Cheers and keep up the great work!

[@williestyle35]

The 1921 AC and 1928 AC refer to the Cutts Compensator , nothing more ( because you could order the guns without it ). With the exception of the ones overstamped when sold to the U. S. Navy, *all* early Thompsons' were commercial products *available* primarily to Law Enforcement and security firms ( though some were also sold to the public, just like the BAR ). See the other videos in this series.

[@RobVon]

@@williestyle35 In the case of the 1921AC, it is correct that the 'C' signified the Cutts. Every 1928A1 left the factory with a Cutts. The 1928AC was taken from 1941 military contract 1928A1 production (every one I've ever seen was between sn 151,000 and 155,000) and diverted to law enforcement sales. The markings "US Model 1928A1" were altered by grinding off the "US" and overstamping the final "1" with a "C." The resulting marking look akin to a 28 overstamp. The 1928AC is a somewhat uncommon but not particularly desired variation of the mil 1928A1

[@tpave96]

You should have tried to spell IAN out in some paper out there with the 1921 and drum, would have completed the gangster feel

[@tomiraiku]

ROFL THAT GANGSTA SKIT WAS GREAT!!! Love the videos

[@genericpersonx333]

I like the Thompson historically, but I can see why Berettas and German MPs were very popular pick-ups with the US Army. Throwing .45 ACP out of an SMG requires more money than Uncle Sam was willing to put in, alas.

[@genericpersonx333]

And they coveted MPs, Berettas, and PPsh41s as well. When your service-issued weapon is one of various archaic bolt-action designs, a Thompson is going to held in extreme regard, but also will most any submachinegun in the context of WW2. I agree that the Thompson is not a bad gun, but when control is taken into consideration, I can see why it still gets lower marks than the Axis 9mm weapons.

[@arrowtt3364]

When you consider the Germans took the time to convert the PPSh to 9mm Parabellum, that says a lot about how much the Germans needed something other than the K98K.

[@RyTrapp0]

I doubt that there were too many soldiers "losing" their uncle Sam issue Thompsons for what would be in reality a pretty minor upgrade enemy weapon. Ian had rather positive comments about shooting the Thompsons, and, mind you, this is from someone that tends to point out the most minute of details(since a lot of these firearms are so close in performance, it tends to come down to nitpicking). No one is running around a damn war zone thinking "...you know, I think I'll just trade off my Thompson for this Beretta instead, because I think that it's just a LIIIIIIIITTLE bit more controllable" - this is strictly range talk and little more. The whole "losing" your weapon for the enemie's wasn't anywhere near as common as I think some really want to believe.

[@genericpersonx333]

I know, but what else is the Internet for than to watch fanboys get offended? Have a nice day. I have.

[@williestyle35]

Uh... Uncle Sam had many tons of .45 acp stockpiled for the *three* different SMGs and other handguns it issued. The M2/M3 "grease gun" was made and issued in the hundreds of thousands.

[@godzilla1463]

Ian you are so close to getting 1 million subs! Congrats!

[@RomeoWhiskey692]

Worst ... gangster ... accent ... ever . Watch some of The Untouchables series from the 1960s and get back to us . Nice burp guns , though .

[@lisov4575]

As if you can do better....

[@infidel1993]

The change in cyclic rate was more about conserving ammunition than controllability. The primary function of automatic weapons changed a lot after WWI when attrition gave way to maneuver warfare. In small units the machine gun’s job is suppression, so giving the weapon another second of burst meant the enemies heads were down for that much longer.

[@ultrablue2]

An excellent end to the Thompson Series! I think we all are surprised that the one with the highest rate was the easiest to shoot; it’s also interesting to see that the continued evolution of the original design did not result in a better, more suitable design but in fact made it harder to shoot. The M1/M1A1 is practically a different gun internally, with only the outer appearance having a family resemblance. It was also interesting to see that the Cutts Compensator actually does work to make the guns more controllable, after hearing for years that it was a gimmick. I’d be curious to know your opinion if you thought the Thompson SMG was a success or a failure as a gun in the context of history; it certainly has a reputation and image with the public at large. However, it’s initial timing (coming out as WWI ended), its complexity, it’s weight, it’s ergonomics, coupled with the cost and effort to produce it all seem to work against it in terms of its overall success as a military firearm. In contrast, the M3/M3A1 was designed from the ground-up to be cheap, mass produced, have a low rate of fire, and be a simple and utilitarian automatic weapon that stayed relevant much longer.

[@lawrenceallen5521]

Like Driving Faster Over Bumps In The Road?

[@con6lex]

Depends on how you define “success”. The Tommy gun fulfilled a need and it worked. But not the best, which is why it was replaced with something cheaper and easier to make and easier to carry. But often the first of something is not the best; people learn and improve designs over time.

[@fix0the0spade]

They built a couple of million, so it can't have been that bad! The M3A1 (all $15 of it) was better from a strategic point of view, but it benefitted from nearly thirty years extra experience and it didn't exist in 1939. The Thompson was successful by dint of being available and being reliable at exactly the moment it was needed. From a military perspective that makes it almost the perfect weapon, if it had been cheaper I bet it's replacement would have been kicked down the road until the assault rifle era.

[@ultrablue2]

I don’t understand the “Thompson was a success simply because it existed” defense. Sure- a heavy, $200-per-unit submachine gun is better than no gun, I get it; but that wasn’t my question. If anything, the Thompson benefitted from complacent, backwards-thinking military planners that saw no reason to move away from bolt action rifles as their soldiers primary weapon, who failed to imagine a battlefield any differently than static trench warfare, and were suddenly faced with a fast-paced mechanized foe who equipped their soldiers with portable automatic weapons- the MG34 and the MP38/40. Dropped into that scenario, ANY automatic weapon is needed; but that’s not what makes something a success. If the Thompson had arrived sooner to the battlefields at the end of WWI, it might have made an impression. The MP18, even though it’s time in WWI was short, the concept was moved along and developed into the MP38/40. The Thompson did not have any of that going for it, and it’s development stagnated; it was a WWI technology used as a stopgap till something better could be developed.

[@williestyle35]

ultrablue2 ,everything you posted is correct. The Thompson SMG was heavy, complicated, and with the drum magazine wasteful and needlessly expensive. You are right that it is shameful the British Army got caught without a proper or readily available SMG when WWII began for England, but that is what happened. The British paid for that mistake in hard currency to Colt and Thompson. The Swiss and the Swedish were not in position to offer any numbers of SMG and the Thompson was not fully committed anywhere in 1940, hence it's financial success. For all of its faults the Thompson was available, and that was good enough.

[@everybodydothatdinosaur519]

The 1921 is probably the best shooting due to the cuts compensator, smoother action, and forward grip which makes it easier to control in full auto. The reason why this is a problem in the military guns is that they lacked all of these features and were generally grittier as well, so the low rate of fire made them more controllable not in comparison to the original per se, but for essentially lacking all of these features. Another thing about a high rate of fire is that more rounds will hit the target faster, making you more accurate with follow up shots before the weapon is off target.

[@Darlos9D]

"There's a thing there." -Forgotten Weapons, 2018

[@madatlas3806]

"This is my choppa, ya see?" I love Ian.

[@jossypoo]

This is PERFECT. Thanks Ian, I've been catching up on your Thompson videos and really appreciating the development process (including the T2) And I was really interested when you said the rate of fire was changed, and was curious to hear the discrepancies! As I'm typing this I can hear that this is the exact reason you've made this video. Incredible. Thank you so much for sating my curiosities.

[@UnintelligibleYT]

Ian should be an actor. Any kind, I don't care, just let him be some character sometime somewhere.

[@benmacklin3531]

It basically turns into an eye exam at 4:28. "Number 4 or number 5?" "Umm... let me see number 4 again" "Number 4..... number 5"

[@MrYaniv99]

I loved the impression Ian did at 5:23! 😂 Nice Chicago typewriter

[@JUNIORK1974]

The slow mo at the end was beautiful to watch. The cloud of brass hanging in midair was pure art.

[@clutchpedalreturnsprg7710]

It reminded me of artwork from a " Sgt. Rock " comic book.

[@fhsreelfilms]

The episode in which Ian lives out my dreams. I wonder if the 1921 and 21/28 have less gas washing back because of the delaying action of the Blish Lock.

[@mixererunio1757]

"It's my Chopper ya see! It's my Chicago Typewriter!"

[@tabletmctablet]

What a fun sentence to start a shift at work with "Here in front of me, I have a selection of Thompson sub-machine guns..."

[@derekdziobek5998]

5:18 Edward G. Robinson intensifies

[@UnintentionalSubmarine]

So take a 1921, replace the sights and add a horizontal front grip and it's perfect? While I'm slightly surprised at the progressively worse shooting, I'm not *entirely* surprised. The first Thompsons were rather expensive, and even as late as early WWII the British were concerned at the cost, and promptly dropped buying them in numbers (if any at all) when cheaper alternatives became available. The M1A1 was obviously made to be cheaper, and you can see it on it. "So what if it is less superb when firing? Doesn't matter much, it's an SMG, it won't be alone and we don't have time to train every soldier to high proficiency anyway." I can totally see some people in charge of logistics and procurement thinking along those lines.

[@craigscott5661]

Jonas Drøjdahl just buy a 28 Thompson and you don’t have to change anything.

[@evalpenguin8797]

"other the past week or tow" yep definitely no one here that watched 2-5 all in one day threw the power of time travel no siree not here... [wipes away nervous sweat]

[@therideneverends1697]

nope

[@Skfoster64]

I recently got to handle a 1928 with an empty drum after a lifetime of fascination with the Thompson and was blown away by just how heavy it was. Can't imagine lugging it around day after day. Thanks for a very enlightening series of videos!

[@jman0870]

You should hold one loaded. The gun is ridiculously heavy compared to today’s standards!

[@LarryGarcia-p3j]

Finally a positive answer, the Thompson is to damn heavy. Looks can be decieving...

[@pledgegamer]

I guess he is rewarding people for watching until the end with these links to unreleased videos

[@darthhodges]

The high speed footage appears to reveal some things about why they might have different cyclic rates. The 1921 and 1921/28 bolts both move forward much faster than the M1A1 suggesting a stronger recoil spring (not necessarily by design, springs tend to get weaker with both age and use and the M1A1 likely has had the most rounds through it). They both also move backwards faster, no doubt because their multipiece bolt assembly is lighter than the monolithic bolt of the M1A1. You can also see something else interesting about the 1921/28. In the other 2 you can see the extra force applied to Ian when the bolt hits the rear of the receiver. In the 1921/28 that force appears to be far less, almost looking like it didn't bottom out at all with some rounds. As though it was accidentally constant recoil.

[@aker1993]

Ian the Divine thompson gunner

[@jballew2239]

Is that an offhand reference to some Warren Zevon?

[@Salieri47]

Just after I said to myself, What, no drum? you bring out the drum. Thanks for the vid!

[@Zoomydoomy]

The whole time I'm sitting here watching and saying to myself "drum mag, get the drum magazine" and then 5:18 happens. Nice lmao.

[@claudecarrier7101]

Those Thompson are iconic as much as a Gibson Les Paul Custom or a Harley. Beautiful to look at and to hear. Ian you are doing a great job. Your sense of history gives your videos a lot of meaning. Keep on the good work !

[@JonManProductions]

How did I comment on this before it released? MAGIC.

[@blaster112]

Burn the witch

[@timmeagher4333]

5 dollars?

[@heffatheanimal2200]

Awesome vid! Its interesting watching the slow mo comparisons at the end, you can clearly see just how much trouble Ian is having controlling the M1A1 compared to the others. Maybe the Blish lock makes a significant difference?

[@jackandersen1262]

Was this meant to be unlisted (as of 9/29/18), because I didn’t get notified of its posting (and I do have notifications enabled), and the video is listed in the WWII guns playlist.

[@LeFeuauxpoudres]

Most of videos are open 1 month before for Patreons supporters

[@jackandersen1262]

Le Feu aux poudres I know that, but I am not a Patreon supporter. Still, I was able to access the video through the WWII guns playlist (that the channel has created), and the most recent video (posted on 10/15/18) said that this video was supposed to be accessible to the public tomorrow.

[@LeFeuauxpoudres]

It's true: it's still not accessible as we speak (here in France 15/10 at 22h06!), but I saw that Ian says this was not accidental that people could see the next videos by clicking at the end of each of this serie.

[@agent7.722]

I understand how hard it is to steady your breath when your trying to speak clearly and in complete sentences, Ian's delivery is top tier always

[@grimsurvivor]

I do see

[@StanislavG.]

:))))

[@justinrobert2770]

Ian was a historian from the land of the desert sun, with a table full of Thompsons, reviewing to be done. The deal was made at Morphy’s on bright and shining day, so he headed to the range with a drum mag and a chance to play.

[@richardwong5616]

"I'm gonna give you to the count of 10, to get your no good ass out of my house" "Okay I'm leaving" "1,2,...10" 5:21

[@maxsmodels]

Reference my comment on an earlier video, the 1928 shoots better than the M1A1 (too me).

[@aleveryonesdaddyhorford8109]

The 21 is wild! Seriously, this would be effective in 2019..

[@qegvW3H]

M1a1 is more practical and easy to manifacturing, but 1921 & 1928 Tommy gun is more better and reliable gun then m1a1

[@TimLee356]

now i'll go watch the grease gun video.

[@gregfair1749]

All three of those are awesome!!!!! I would absolutely enjoy being able to own them!!!!

[@anthonymcauliffe9000]

I'd imagine these auction houses now put a premium on guns 'fired by Gun Jesus' 😂

[@MRtucnakCZE]

Should've done dual wield 50 drum 1921 - 21/28 with really really mean look in the face. Spray and Pray.

[@josiahricafrente585]

Hold up let’s talk about that little mag toss he just pulls off while talking at 3:56

[@WhitzWolf92]

A traditional Ian reload.

[@tlshortyshorty5810]

nice

[@DonnieBrasco-dy9yd]

That's like insanely easy unless you're an uncoordinated tool.

[@KPen3750]

maybe the 21 is more controllable because with the fast fire, the more bullets go through the compensater so that near constant stream of upwards gas makes it more controllable and that there is less time for the gun to sway and react before another bullet compensates the recoil. But just a theory

[@danbenson7587]

Kyle, I think you are on to it. Ian leans into the gun and the 21’s high rate recoil balances. But when the lower rate 21/28, he overbalances. So he is having to correct (with his back muscles) with each individual round. Well that’s a trick, so the gun walks around...less controllable. There must be a sweet spot rate for every sub machine gun. Thompson has its issues, but such classic lines! M14 is another less than great weapon with classic proportions. Cheers.

[@Chu466]

This just keeps getting better

[@General.Longstreet]

Ian truly has the best job in the world