Formation 201 Basic Formation for Fun and Profit

[@twentyrothmans7308]

Thank you for this in-depth discussion. It's worth watching a few times, if only to try to keep up with you.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

I know, I talk fast. Lots to say!

[@farmerbobross]

Let's hear more about Oswald Boelke's grandson that was your instructor. That's a neat bit of history you should expand on. Awesome videos. Thanks!

[@elcapitan7352]

Nonpilot: I am impressed by the degree and combinations of skill, discipline to do (and survive) formation flying. Very, very impressive--better understanding of why it takes years of study and discipline to develop those skills.

[@lessharratt8719]

Can we talk more about wake turbulence and wing tip vortices?? I had it drummed into my head as a PPL student to stay far away from other aircraft because I will get caught in turbulence and my aircraft will be thrown into an unrecoverable attitude as a student pilot. I can't even imagine how air to air refueling takes place given what my instructors told me. I would love a more in depth conversation about that. What to do and what not to do.

[@jflippen]

A lot of civilians don't have 2 radios. If you have one radio and during landing someone needs to move from HOT to COLD, don't use the words CLEAR....we say ....Lead your good...or 2 your good, ATC is not cool with someone else on Tower saying CLEAR...Military planes generally are on on a Tactical Freq when landing, but not too many Military folks will be watching this video to learn formation. Lots of little things in a good formation from the time you step to the time you get out of the plane. I have about 2500 hours flying Civilian Formation and it is a blast! If anyone is every in San Diego and wants to go for a ride...hit me up. Flipper Lead Pilot San Diego Salute

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

John, Military pilots are on Tower Freq when they land. Wherever you got the idea they are on Tactical Freqs, forget it. In my Opinion 'your not good' on your terminology. The majority of GA airplanes have two radios. A lot of the warbirds I've flown have singles. The suggestion of using an Aux radio in this situation is a technique, but a dubious one. But the point is, you make assumptions based on your 'unlimited' experience that are not valid. One more thing, my dad taught me that anyone who has to claim their experience in hours is immediately suspect. I suggest you work on your facts and present your case in terms of.... 'Our technique for this is such and such.'

[@michaelquigley9619]

wish i'd seen this 45 years ago back in Pensacola.

[@Flying_Snakes]

Great vid and content. Thanks!

[@jamesbergman581]

Excellent

[@Joe_Not_A_Fed]

That was fascinating. I learned a ton. Not sure how much sunk in, but one thing that stuck is...formation training seems to be tough on rudders...even when you have a spare. Thanks, Scott. It must be fun for you to take a break from the dark side of what you do. At least I hope it is. It's fun for me, so that should be reason enough to keep mixing it up, right?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

You are exactly right!

[@youbecha64]

Nice review...brought back fond memories (been 10 years now)...btw, the AF changed the 'route' signal to a hand signal that looks like pushing the wingman away...I think it was changed specifically for the T-6 because they are all over the rudders all the time...but the -38s are using the same signal. (or maybe it was only a KSPS thing.)

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Cool, thanks.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Just checked. The 'Push' has been an alternate signal to 'Loosen' Formation, in the Fighter world it means Spread. I looked up the T-6 signal and that is what they are using for Route. AFI 11-205 still pertains.

[@lannyfenster7461]

Route formation is basis NAVY close fingertip

[@dermick]

Thanks for producing the video, Scott. I have very limited loose formation cross country flying with some friends in my RV-8, and feel that I need a lot of practice. Do you have some suggestions for single ship practice, or is this just something that requires a buddy flying with me?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Do you mean flying solo, as opposed to dual?

[@dermick]

@@FlyWirescottperdue Yes sir - just me, flying alone, in my RV-8. No other aircraft nearby. I'd like to see if there are some exercises I can do to increase my ability to fly precisely enough to fly formation. Thanks!

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

@@dermick It's pretty hard to simulate Formation flying as a single aircraft. I teach folks learning how to be Flight Leads to use Instrument techniques for turns, headings, climbs and descents. Don't try wing position solo, you need dual instruction from someone who knows how to do it. This can be dangerous stuff.

[@dermick]

@@FlyWirescottperdue Thanks a lot Scott. I appreciate your videos - they help me to become a better pilot, in every sense. I learn something from every one.

[@petrairene]

Great explanation, thanks a lot!!!! I have a few additional questions. How much time do new military pilots spend on learning formation flying? How much time (flight hours, time of the course) does it take to get firm and safe in these maneuvers? And, do they put together an all newbie wing to teach this, brief them and let them try it? Is there an instructor flying in each plane, or does a flight of three newbies have one plane with an instructor who coaches the three students through it? How is this training done without killing students left and right and without using years of practice? I'm from Gemany, and here since the 60ies military aerobatics has been terminated because a flight lead led his three wingmen into the ground in a loop and then, ten years later there was the Ramstein accident, where the italian aerobatics team had a midair and the jets crashed into the viewers with a ton of causualties and injured plus utter lack of proper disaster management and chaos on that US airforce base. Of course it's a pity that the German tax payer doesn't get to occasionally see a display of the planes they pay for. I think I would find it slightly nerve wracking to give up my whole self preservation and just stare at lead, getting my clues of what to do exclusively from what lead does, particularly when it's close to the ground. This takes an extraordinary amount of trust in the people you fly with. I guess depending with your life on every little action of your colleagues on a daily basis gives the people who regularly do it a special kind of social bond?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Formation is part of the Pilot Training Program for both the Navy and the USAF. In the USAF everyone flies it in Primary. If you go fighter track you also fly it in T-38s. Quite a bit of flying time is devoted to learning formation. Each student has an IP, when I went through there were a couple of solo sorties in the syllabus. Formation has rules and procedures.... most of which come from someone dyeing. Follow the rules. I know of the accident at Ramstein, had friends there at the time. A big mistake was allowing the Frecce to fly towards the crowd during a maneuver. Rather than fix what was glaringly wrong they just banned everything. That's not a fix at all. That accident shaped airshows all over the world and they are done safely.

[@johnfitzpatrick2469]

Can a person improve their periferral vision (sensory perception) or; what you're got is it? Thanks for the lesson on formation basics "finger tip flying". 🌏🇦🇺

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

I think you can learn to accommodate... some folks have physical limitations.

[@vut_zarco]

The thumbnail is of South African Harvard's no?. My father, uncle and brother flew them in the air force.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

That is me in my first T6 on the wing... it was a South African airplane.

[@vut_zarco]

@@FlyWirescottperdue wow great stuff

[@JSFGuy]

Y'all check it out, right here, brand new for you.

[@richardlincoln8438]

💪👍

[@dandaniel439]

I also would like to know what purposes formations serve. If multiple planes are traveling cross-country do they always (or usually) fly formation? Do multiple planes going on a combat mission fly formation in transit? Is formation in IMC common? at night? BTW I loved the commentary. I had no idea it was so complicated. Fascinating.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Dan, watch Formation 101. I think that will answer most of your questions.

[@Kiekhaefer6]

Boelcke pronunciation is Bowl kuh at least that’s what my German friends say. Not sure what they know haha

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Maybe, I pronounced it the way his grandson did.....

[@Kiekhaefer6]

@@FlyWirescottperdue It's an American thing I think. They pronounce it like that on those Dogfight shows too.

[@LTVoyager]

Looks like the props have had some really poor formation flying pilots as 3 of the 4 vertical stabilizers are missing. 😂

[@kewkabe]

I've been an FAA controller for over 30 years now and still don't understand the need to fly in formation. Can you explain the advantages? I can see how it made sense in WWII when planes could only shoot each other with short-range bullets, but today with missiles there's no reason to have to fly close together to protect each other. And it's a huge pain to have to break apart formations when they get into IMC.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

You're just wrong.

[@kewkabe]

@@FlyWirescottperdue About what?

[@LTVoyager]

@@kewkabe I suspect he means you are wrong about the need to protect each other, but his reply was certainly not helpful.

[@nancychace8619]

Respect - I was struck by how much goes into it. Not to be taken lightly. Average folks wouldn't have a clue. Very timely discussion given the current state of affairs and controversy re: creating a no-fly zone over Ukraine. It's been suggested "no-fly zone" should be renamed "declaration of war zone"; a.k.a. WWIII. It is ghastly having to watch what the Ukrainians are going through, much less if you were in the thick of it. I can only imagine what a pilot might go through.

[@nancychace8619]

But the world seems to be facing Hitler 2.0. It can only get worse. When/how does the world step in to stop it? Thoughts? I'm not well versed on what happened early on in WWII. By all accounts Ukraine's dilemma is similar. Putin has never heard of Fighter Pilot Rule #1. I will reiterate his ego is writing checks the world will not be able to cash. What he is doing is unsustainable. Appreciate your perspective. Thanks for sharing. Stay safe.

[@JonathanFinkGroup]

I don’t think as an amateur I’m good enough for formation flying.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

All it takes is determination and just do it. it's not rocket science.

[@JonathanFinkGroup]

@@FlyWirescottperdue I get it. I hear its very satisfying but I worry that my skill level will not keep up. I dont' want to kill someone while I try to figure it out. I love the idea of something like the Bonanza formation arrival at Oshkosh but i'm not sure I'm open to increasing risk. I try to do everything i can to reduce risk in my flying. I'm not saying others shouldn't do it and obviously you were trained in the military, that is different. My comment is just about how I perceive it as a 150 hour a year pilot who wants to be safe and be alive at the end.

[@JonathanFinkGroup]

I love your videos. Keep up the good work.