Framework 13: How Many Times Can You Upgrade One Framework?

[@soviut303]

You should show how a spare framework mainboard can be turned into a desktop with a coolermaster case.

[@mmpsp693]

First thing that should come to mind is if you, in fact, require an upgrade.

[@bradhaines3142]

also that case is like 30$, pretty awesome for some spare parts

[@MrNoipe]

you don't even need a case to turn it in a desktop!

[@Shotblur]

You can also get one 3D printed, potentially for free

[@SzásaTabasov]

And then you can make a home server and have Minecraft running on it

[@CrimsonBlade104]

Still love my original Framework 13 from years ago, with just some minor upgrades since. Great to know that in maybe a year or two, I'll be able to make a huge mainboard upgrade so easily and still have my old mainboard to use however!

[@PhuketMyMac]

Congratulation Framework for doing the right thing and being profitable!

[@Lylcaruis]

just shows how you can be consumer friendly AND still make lots of money

[@bfbunny]

Windows (after seeing a different motherboard): Yep, you're banned from your previous windows license

[@mtrebtreboschi5722]

Thats probably windows if you change even the thermal paste

[@DJDTHTRP]

That *_IS_* a rather huge problem. What utter BS it is.

[@edNdr]

Can bind it to your Microsoft account, I think?

[@cheesetomatoes]

Is this still an issue? I swapped my motherboard/CPU/RAM last weekend and the activation troubleshooter took care of it. My wife did the same and it didn't even reset activation in the first place. OEM licenses on both, not retail.

[@m.m.1634]

You can change your license to a new mainboard

[@electrofreak0]

already decided a framework will be my next laptop, just waiting for my HP to have a non-replaceable component die on me so I have an excuse.

[@berberger4814]

I think when a non replaceable component dies thats not an excuse, no? sounds more like a valid reason for me

[@okamisamakun]

​@@berberger4814It is, but they're trying to justify the purchase inside their head 🤣🤣🤣 Which is totally fair btw

[@Frigobar_Ranamelonico]

for what they cost you can basically buy 2 new laptop, that's the problem

[@heroninja1125]

@@Frigobar_Ranamelonico 2 lower quality laptops* Considering the specifications and quality of the framework laptop (both the 13 and 16) they are not actually that bad for their price. You may be able to find a device with similar specifications and build quality for 10-25% less, but thats not HALF the price. The modularity, repairability and upgradeability easily make up any additional costs. Theres also a lot of laptops that are actually more expensive then the frameworks for the same or worse quality.

[@SGCSmith]

In addition to this, you know what else is great about the Framework laptops? The fact that Framework didn't cap the TDP of the processor on the original 11th Gen models just to skimp on the cooling or reduce noise. I have two of the 11th Gen Intel Frameworks at home, and they are speedy little laptops. They definitely run circles around competing business laptops with otherwise identical specs. 3-4Ghz Turbo all the way, versus the "We'll just run it at 1.8Ghz after a few seconds" nonsense of other brands.

[@rising_fredo_pixel]

That's awesome

[@okman9684]

Wow Framework and iFixit post at the same time 😯

[@JunkyardCanis]

I could learn to live with the lack of upgradability of laptops if they were built like these framework laptops because there would be no doubt in my mind I could at the very least repair it if I need to, it makes these laptops even more unique to me bc even built with a repair conscious mind you actually do get upgradability along with it.

[@dj_gzero]

0:12 but you’re not their what, now? 🤨

[@KingOfCorinth]

I wonder how much it costs to see Framework's screwdriver without the handle.

[@My2ndAngelic]

bruh

[@DeerJerky]

they have quite the relationship I guess

[@fsociety.dat101]

Their only fans. What's the issue?

[@m05110]

Oi!

[@The8blackwidow8]

I am waiting for one with a touchscreen. Looking forward to it

[@zille3000]

Have you noticed any issues with the gaps between keyboard plates? Some people report having these with the bigger screens.

[@trueNahobino]

Framework is doing all the hard work that is needed if we want to reduce e-waste and get better upgradeability in the future. I am definitely going to buy a Framework 13 for my next laptop. I actually met someone in real life who has one so there are actually others supporting it too!

[@TheLikeys]

Oh I’ve already seen plenty of them in the wild. You just have to be among the right kinda folks lol

[@JordorConor]

I want to congratulate framework for their achievements. I just hope that laptop design starts compartmentalizing the features of the machine much more than just being able to swap the entire motherboard. Like for example swapping the CPU or the GPU power management circuit in case they have failed. Otherwise we are stuck at the same point.

[@jaselvd]

You can't do that anymore unless intel, AMD and/or Nvidia put effort into it, Wich they won't unless humongous amounts of people ask for it, Wich won't happen. They just don't manufacture chips capable of running socketed like they used to. Nvidia is extremely toxic about you even trying to prototype some device they don't approve on, so much that they don't even sell to framework for the modules on the 16. They might be able to do something with desktop chips, but those lack important capabilities for mobile and the efficiency required. Swapping the MB is not that wasteful, and even less when you can reuse it with a 3d printable case as a desktop or just buy it directly from framework.

[@EraYaN]

You can do that with board level repair, and for the power components that is not even that hard if you have the right tools. Nothing like BGA reballing etc.

[@ivovass195]

Waiting for Framework to be available in my country and for my, still running well, laptop to die that its still going strong since 2015

[@LeonEdwinsHeart]

Wow, so awesome! All companies should aim to do this. Especially if they talk about reducing waste.

[@Domfootstitch]

I really like the discussion of deere and apple's deliberate attempts to monopolize and control repair and I think that's a wonderful time to throw in a mention of magnusson moss warranty act and the everyday violations of this that we see. Consumers benefit from knowing that many warranties are protected by fearmongering and consumer outrage over those lies will help right to repair efforts and shore up support.

[@EnterpriseKnight]

Me watching framework videos over and over again since Framework is taking their long ass time to ship mine.

[@punkdigerati]

Laptop of Theseus?

[@ej_tech]

In my personal opinion once a motherboard is replaced it is a new computer. New serial number, the need to transfer the Windows license key, and the capabilities and features a computer has changed as well.

[@naturalcauses1695]

​@@ej_tech It's not a new laptop tho is it

[@rising_fredo_pixel]

​@@ej_techi think the same. There's a reason why the activation status of windows is only affected when you change the motherboard

[@govind_goyal]

praying to god that framework comes to india before i need a new laptop

[@mrcvry]

Which one?

[@jeinnerabdel]

​@@mrcvrybait underway

[@CoolCrescent186]

For me Framework's main issue has always been price. I got a used Dell Latitude 2-in-1 5290 with 16GB RAM and the i5-8350U, it's keyboard, a second SSD, an Intel AX210, and an upgraded primary storage for under $250. That value is wild, and Framework is no where close to there.

[@jackwoodhead]

Price is probably the main reason people shy away from Framework, with lack of interesting features coming in at a close second. The Framework doesn't really pay off unless you're thinking about the distant future because no other laptop gets the same long-term support or upgradability it gets. Now sure, of course most users don't care about long term support because they'll just buy a new machine. For most people, that's more cost effective and just better. But for people like me who want to cling to their existing devices because they hate forced change (and because I'm extremely environmentally conscious), this device is game-changing. Also keep in mind that this device is competing with the build quality of much more premium machines than Latitudes. With everything considered, the starting price of ~$600 is remarkably impressive, given that you're getting the same physical machine as everyone else who specs their higher, and access to all of the upgrade options too.

[@CoolCrescent186]

@@jackwoodhead The Latitude 5290 2-in-1 feels more solidly built than any other laptop I have ever touched, including MacBook Pros. Then again, it is practically a tablet, but this thing feels indestructible.

[@jackwoodhead]

@@CoolCrescent186 You have me curious now, I'll have to find one at Best Buy or something to demo one. The 2-in-1s I've handled in the past have always either had strange compromises or suboptimal build quality.

[@fdtk]

They already have "Factory Seconds" edition, aka factory refurbish. The price started at 499 for 11th gen, hopes the price comes down more in the future.

[@CoolCrescent186]

@@fdtk While true, the absolute budget savvy buyers out there (like me) think $500+ for a computer is wild, and I will not spend that much.

[@zweiwing4435]

I have with Intel Core Ultra 7, I still worry that problems with batteries hours, having as rugged edition.

[@b130610]

Glad to see framework keeping up their regular component release cadence, too bad meteor lake isn't too exciting. I hope arrow lake or whatever intels next mobile soc is is more competitive with amd in efficiency instead of just playing catch up so we don't end up with stagnation like the bulldozer/skylake era.

[@i.gini7]

I really hoped those were avaible in Switzerland! too bad that's not the case :S

[@luke.perkin.online]

My next laptop will be a framework. This time a second hand galaxy book pro 3 360 5G 16" oled made more sense at £435. Just couldn't say no!

[@ninderninder2689]

getting one.

[@LauS0]

Is it repairable when you change the whole board? you can do that with any laptop, I guess it's easier to open but I don't see how it benefits the end consumer apart form the whole board upgrades

[@uts_137]

basically every replacement parts are available directly from framework so if anything breaks, you can repair it yourself if you so desire instead of sending it back for RMA or hunting down parts from decommissioned laptops and if the mainboard failed, framework provides schematics to repair shops to do board level repairs

[@AndreaIppolitoIppo]

Ever heard of LPDDR? Evidently not

[@LauS0]

@@AndreaIppolitoIppo What does swappable ram have to do with what I said

[@AndreaIppolitoIppo]

@@LauS0 I was just bringing an example of "how it benefits the end consumer apart form the whole board upgrades". You can upgrade (or replace) just the RAM modules you need, without needing to replace the whole board with CPU, heatsinks etc. Of course Framework isn't the only company allowing to do that, but more and more are following Apple's "let's solder everything" approach.

[@icerink239]

Can you jump from one generation to another with other laptops?

[@theartworkhub]

How Many Times Can You Upgrade One Framework? Wallet: ...

[@fsociety.dat101]

It's less about upgrading to the next best thing on release, and more about replacing whats broken or too obsolete for your needs. If you do it right, it works out a _lot_ cheaper than purchasing a brand new laptop.

[@jedics1]

Captive screws are such an easy thing to include but make life so much easier, I hope for a day where framework becomes so popular that other companies look antiquated not being repairable because Im never leaving mac os.

[@juandyman_es]

The only kind of laptop you would ever need 💅🏻

[@starksuman]

my current laptop is laggy but will not upgrade to anything else that framework waiting for them to sell in India and a touchscreen varient too. my current one with touch screen ruined my habbit.

[@alexmercer3001]

Will never be available in India. And am still watching it.

[@kidShibuya]

Except they refused to let me buy one in Japan...

[@ghozan9529]

The savings between huge upgrades are small but it is still leagues better than what apple and other companies like apple or doing bringing it to a repair shop, and that alone is worth it🔥

[@ChairmanHehe]

best laptop

[@Sathish_90]

framewrok please sell in india

[@keithframe3489]

Yes, for real bro. I hate this company for doing all this marketing, but refuse to sell worldwide, they only sell to "white" countries.

[@PJBeee]

The problem is the cost of these machines to start off with. You can get very good used late-generation Windows laptops for low bucks, many with easy-enough parts availability and replacement batteries. If you are the type who loses machines (stolen or otherwise) or breaks them often, this might be a better bet. Keep good backups and toss them out when they break. BUT I DO see the point of Framework devices in terms of reparability and less e-waste. SO one size does NOT fit all.

[@siddheshchavan9236]

Lenovo ThinkPad Laughing in the corner

[@polaris1985]

If only it was cheaper!

[@maxdergroe9082]

I love my Framework 13 with all its flaws and quirks, failed fingerprint sensor, broken screen hinge screw and weak battery and loud-ish fan. Apart from that, it has been reliable and a blessing to work with. The crucial parts feel great, the keyboard feels very nice, the screen looks amazing and the trackpad is well... usable. Cant go wrong with that 12th Gen i5 either.

[@metanoialabs7037]

And all it costs is the price of a brand new equivalent laptop.

[@DarkGT]

Only if it wasn't so expensive and it was sold worldwide.

[@平和-v1z]

Apple be like: We can't do that, how else are we supposed to exploit our customers and the environment?

[@georgeh6856]

I love my AMD Framework 13. Apple fan-children, don't troll. Nobody is forcing you to stop buying e-waste.

[@vip01]

My son built one of these 13" versions. I wanted to, but the cost seemed pretty high for a 13 ", so I shopped around and found a 15.6 : screen laptop with an I-5 cpu, and a 3050 graphics chip for way less. Works well and I hope it last a long time. !!!

[@TheBlackSkimmer]

I see repairable devices aren't worth it to you.

[@hansdampf1975]

Love the concept of the Framework laptops! Nevertheless I sent mine back because of the facing down speaker integration. With the modular concept I doubt there will be another solution soon. 😞

[@minikretz1]

You could use external speakers or headphones

[@TheSpotify95]

@@minikretz1 don't even need wires, use a Bluetooth speaker that will sound better than any laptop's built in speakers.

[@ronlevin2339]

if Apple would do it, their sales will dive down in half after 2-3 years.

[@DimasFajar-ns4vb]

wow and zamzam water

[@RiteshChaudhary-h1b]

Business

[@drk_blood]

I would like framework laptops to have a OnlyFans page 😂

[@Noir1234]

The higher price tag of the Framework stuff is not worth it for me. I better buy cheap used stuff.

[@TheBlackSkimmer]

Cheap now but replace more often.

[@stevecaruso2748]

@@TheBlackSkimmer This is the thing. I've saved hundreds of dollars, pounds of e-waste, and weeks of my time with our Frameworks over the current course of their lives compared to any other major manufacturer.

[@TheBlackSkimmer]

@@stevecaruso2748 So you agree with my statement?

[@TheBlackSkimmer]

@@stevecaruso2748 So you're agreeing with me then?

[@Hans-gb4mv]

While I am all in favor of repairability, when I need an upgrade, I will upgrade the entire machine. You now have a display and webcam module that you don't have any use for. It's nice that you can sell or reuse the mainboard (if you have a use for it), but I have to imagine that the market for used parts is going to be extremely small with supply far outpacing demand. A whole laptop is easier to sell than its parts.

[@AndreaIppolitoIppo]

As a big Framework fan and owner myself (13" AMD), I've been worried about this, too. I haven't made any upgrades yet, but when the day comes, how hard will it be to repurpose old components? IIRC the forum now has a dedicated section for selling old parts, that should help.

[@Splarkszter]

Will it burn down because of Intel's fault tho?

[@KellyWu04]

If only mine was reliable

[@jd-py5nm]

whats wrong with it? Looking at buying one

[@LessThanPro]

@@jd-py5nm Personally mine works great, currently running Fedora atomic. Only gripe is the battery life (55Wh), although it’s not even bad with light usage, still lasts through my day. Would recommend checking out bluefin/aurora to transfer away from windows if you’d like. No hardware issues though.

[@Quamsi]

@@jd-py5nm Dunno about Kelly, but I have not had any issues with mine, which I received october 2021. Haven't changed anything on it. I leave it a backpack that I throw around all the time. The lid of the laptop has a little dent in it, but no impact on functionality.

[@bradhaines3142]

@@jd-py5nm i have a framework 16, the fit and finish is very 1.0, but it works great otherwise. the charging situation isnt great either, but the charger it comes with is

[@tikay2986]

@@jd-py5nm New Framework Generations usually have some software issues when they launch. Especially the 13.5" AMD ones. But they did fix quite a lot with various Bios updates. So if reliability is a main concern, I wouldn't preorder a new Generation and instead take one, that has been out for 2-4 Month

[@brianressler569]

That's insane I'd rather buy one of these and get some upgrades out of it instead of having to buy a new laptop just to get better specs

[@persona2293]

The PRICE is what stopping people into having one.

[@stevecaruso2748]

The INITIAL price. Over the course of owning them it's been much cheaper for us (with money *and* time for repairs -- the weeks I've had to wait for Apple to fix things sent to their depots in the past were reduced to a few days for the part to show up and 15 minutes to install it myself).

[@zeronin4696]

"Framework13: How much money did you get for your liver?"

[@DonaldCarroll-i8m]

Young Steven Martin Margaret Moore Laura

[@liuhc]

The main road block for me is actually the Windows OS. I hate how apple makes their laptops virtually un-upgradable and unrepairable, but their OS is hands down 100x better than Windows to me.

[@rising_fredo_pixel]

Make a hackintosh...

[@liuhc]

@@rising_fredo_pixel Not possible on recent hardware.

[@linuxares]

If they only made a nordic keyboard...

[@accik]

There is for Finnish/Swedish and from their Twitter: "We're continuing to expand shipping to the rest of EU this year.". Norway being outside of EU probably slows things

[@alg003]

Given the dumpster fire that has been Intel lately, it would be nice if they prioritized AMD chipsets over intel. Not to mention AMD is better for battery, runs cooler, the softwear is better, and AMD is better overall in terms of consumer and customer care.

[@HowDareYouu]

neah, in a 4 year timeline you will pay mor for upgrades comparing to buying 2 different laptops

[@lordkekz4]

I disagree, though it of course depends on your requirements. I got my FW13 about two years ago (with high end specs at the time, which cost like 2300€ in total (including kinda overpriced RAM and some expansion cards for a friend, you could save some money by buying third-party RAM and SSD). I haven't upgraded anything since, and I don't plan on upgrading this device for at least two more years since it's still plenty fast. If I upgrade only the mainboard (CPU) after 4 years of usage, I will most likely get between 10% and 40% more performance at a cost of 1100€ (based on current prices for latest-gen motherboards). Since I still got DDR4, I'll need to upgrade the RAM too, which adds about 200€ (third-party price for 64GB of decent DDR5-5600 RAM). I don't think you would reasonably need to upgrade the display, battery, wifi, SSD or anything else really. Battery wear could depend on usage, but a new battery is just 79€. A decent SSD should last a lot longer than 4 years, unless you overstress it (you shouldn't fill it more than about 70%, otherwise it can't reasonably spread the wear across the drive). So, I'd only pay 3600€ for a pretty extreme upgrade after 4 years. You usually don't get a similarly premium and performant laptop for less than 1800€. For example, a comparable Thinkpad T14 Pro with 64GB RAM and Intel Core Ultra 165 costs 2500€. Also, I'll still have a fully functional mainboard to use as an energy efficient homeserver, or to sell in case anyone wants a cheap one.

[@eduardoizquierdo309]

I really don't see how this has 10/10 considering that you have to replace the entire motherboard to replace the cpu

[@ass5kickin]

You can’t get a CPU only because Intel and AMD do not allow this. The mobile CPUs will always come soldered to a board. So it’s not framework’s fault.

[@emanueleborghini3186]

Go ahead and find a laptop with an upgradeable socketed CPU where the manufacturer also offers replacement parts for every other component of the laptop.

[@aluisiofsjr]

Motherboard companies don’t make swap able cpu/motherboards for a long time.

[@eduardoizquierdo309]

It doesn't exist, but that doesn't mean it is the right thing, just because nobody does it doesn't mean you should just roll over and give up​ @emanueleborghini3186

[@emanueleborghini3186]

@@eduardoizquierdo309 it's the current best solution on the market and decently better than the competition, so yes it is okay to accept it. it's not meant to stop innovation, it's a good step forward

[@composimple364]

Sounds extremely promotional than objective

[@rising_fredo_pixel]

It's deserved.

[@yodamastera]

I do prefer the Apple laptop. My last one was 8 years old (MacBook Pro 15 2015) and without any wasteful replacement parts. Battery hold for 1-2 hours, no waste main board, no nothing. How many waste have you generated in the last 8 years yourself? I will see how long does the MacBook Air last. It has 2 moving parts which will improve longevity and again reduce failure rate.

[@brettito]

Soooo... what happened to the old parts your replaced??? "Circular economy" I assume you donated them to-- another framework laptop??? I get it. The world is hard and tough and all that, and I guess less ewaste is better than more in this case?

[@Quamsi]

well, ideally you should use the parts until they fail before they become ewaste and you need to replace them... If your usecase changes and you upgrade because you need more power, you can either sell the old parts through framework community market, or use them for a cool project, like a server or home desktop, etc.

[@bradhaines3142]

they sell a case so you can turn the old board into a mini pc, or like other guy said you can sell your old parts and get a bit of money back.

[@dankmemes3153]

Yeeeaah, il skip the framework brand. $1300 for a bare bones core ultra 155H motherboard? Doesnt come with ram or memory? You can buy 2, TWO meteor lake Nucs with the 155H cpu. 😂

[@penewoldahh]

Are nucs laptops?

[@Bluecolty]

It is expensive, but you’re paying for a high quality, lower volume product. Their stuff is built to last, and uses genuinely high quality parts. The screen featured in this video? It’s super HD, bright, and color accurate. Yea you don’t get ram and storage, but assuming $100 for each you’re in $1500 for a laptop that’ll last 10 years or more.

[@dankmemes3153]

@@Bluecolty No amount of marketing is saving this buddy, Lmao. Every electronic can last a decade with proper care. Every display pannel in 2024 in the is color accurate, 2.8k QHD, 4k UHD+ resolution up to 500-1000nits of brightness, its the standard. "Super HD he says lmao" The issue is the motherboard ITSELF is $1300. You can LITERALLY get an asus zenbook 14 laptop with the SAME 155H cpu, 32Gb of Ram, 1TB nvme ssd, 2.8k 120hz touch screen pen supported OLED display for $1300. You can get two asus nuc mini pcs that have the same cpu for the same price. You are overpaying. Plain and simple, no squirming your way around it. You gotta be smart with your money

[@Bluecolty]

@@dankmemes3153 disagree. Not every laptop and barely any mini PC is upgradable. Thats what you're paying for in a framework laptop

[@Zaryn10]

Framework will be my next laptop. Upgradeable, reduction in e waste and customer friendly. Thank you Framework. Goodbye and good riddance Apple