Framing, Agency, and AAA Female Protagonists | Semi-Ramblomatic

AAA games have a weird tendency to treat female protagonists differently when it comes to agency and framing of violence.
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[@alloounou6900]

Male protagonist in action sequence: boxing match Female protagonist in action sequence: Saw film

[@Catalyst375]

​@@LoganChristianson That's not it at all, or did you not watch the video? The problem is that a lot of games with female protagonists make the pain and suffering the focus, which isn't the case with most male characters. As he says at the start, it's about the framing.

[@notmyname213]

​@LoganChristianson that's literally not what the video is about, homie.

[@lordxmugen]

@@Catalyst375 I think the devs of TR got too high on watching The Descent if you ask me.

[@docterfantazmo]

​@@LoganChristianson This video is about the dissonance between character and creator and how it affects agency and somehow biological absolutists still manage to boil it down to "but arms not as big!!!" Get a different talking point, dude.

[@thrawncaedusl717]

This video really feels like projection. Like, you could also say that Joel does everything for the ghost of his daughter. That is just as accurate of a take as saying Ellie does everything for Joel (my personal take is more Ellie has survivor guilt and wants to die trying to accomplish something that matters).

[@Racecarlock]

It JUST occurred to me. They're trying to do damsel in distress stuff, but with the player being mario instead of the main character in the game being mario.

[@gabeslist]

Yeah it's like, "Oh no player! YOU have to save her! Quick press these buttons!"

[@rukifellth2]

Oooh that is an excellent observation!!

[@e-man7418]

Never thought of it that way but yeah, that "you want to protect the new Laura" quote really makes all that stuff click

[@gutsmasterson2488]

In other words: if your point of view character is somebody that is throwing themselves into danger, at a certain point what they are doing, isn’t bravery anymore, but stupidity. And if your point of view is somebody stupid, that leads to frustrations towards the game. If a damsel in distress breaks themselves out of their situation, there’s a level of cool that comes from whatever they broke out of and lack of urgency on how easy it was to get out of what they were stuck with. But if they escape and it seems like every moment they are in the action it’s filled with anguish, than maybe your hero isn’t a hero but a torture porn character on a plot thread.

[@sanc3375]

That's a really good way of seeing things

[@Ceruleanst]

The uncircled part of the 4:10 quote lays it bare: "When people play Lara, they don't really project themselves into the character." The player is assumed to be male, but described as "people" making it very plain that the assumption is unexamined, and from there it is further assumed that they cannot possibly identify with a female player character.

[@xelaander8429]

Exactly this desire to humanize the character by showing us more suffering stemmed from an assumption that wasn't even verified

[@cloudkitt]

Which is, frankly, ridiculous. I (a man) have identified with and enjoyed playing loads of female characters over the years. Being a hyper-competent badass feels fun regardless of gender. e.g. pulling off ridiculous combos as Bayonetta is every bit as satisfying as it is with Dante.

[@GodOfGames523]

It ironically circles back into projecting their sexist beliefs, the assumption that ''people don't project themselves into the character'' only tell us that the authors are unable to project themselves onto the character, as if women are some ethereal beings incapable of having the human experience the rest of humanity has It's why Samus' reveal is so good in the original nes, it forces you to project yourself into the cool space character during the whole game, and at the end when it's revealed she is a woman you don't really feel any different about it, you still think you are this cool bounty hunter going on a space adventure, you just think of the bounty hunter as female instead of male

[@stevenglowacki8576]

@@GodOfGames523 I just wanted to point out that in at least Metroid Dread, it's hard to not be reminded that Samus is female in the way her armor is shaped. The skinny waist and wide hips are much more exaggerated than I really felt comfortable with.

[@GodOfGames523]

@@stevenglowacki8576 Tbh that's been a part of Samus armor design since at least the SNES, it's always had a very skinny waist and very big hips, I think it's more obvious now as a consequence of making a less squarey suit, the more slick and circular dread suit does accentuate the hips a lot more But still the main things you are drawn to are the big ass shoulder pads and the cool mask

[@Pennywise12528]

It always rubbed me the wrong way that Old Lara is talked about as something that had to be replaced and Reboot Lara is so much better, while Old Lara was both much more competent and was treated with much more respect by her games even with the fanservice. True, Old Lara could die horribly too, but the camera didn't zoom in on her face to watch the life leave her eyes as she twitched and slowly slid down a length of pipe.

[@surfingkoala35]

Yeah, a lot of the death scenes seem like they are made for a gore forum in a way that you just don’t seem to see. Nathan drake just screams and falls if he misses a jump. Lara smashes into the rocks below in shocking detail. Yahtzee has a point.

[@karnovrpg]

In those old games you wanted Lara to AVOID getting hurt. The reboot wanted Lara to get hurt as much as possible.

[@TheStormbringer8751]

Difference between Drake and Lara is the ESRB rating....

[@toolittletoolate]

"As she twitched and slowly slid down a length of pipe" On it's own out of context sounds like fanfic jesus christ

[@JaredJeyaretnam]

@@toolittletoolateand yet I can recall the exact scene being talked about, years on. I really forgot how gruesome it was.

[@MusicVersa]

I didn't much care for Control, but it is an example of a recent "AAA" game with a female protagonist that I don't recall suffering from this phenomenon.

[@BillyONeal]

There's a bit of it in her origin story but it's clear by about midway through that she's absolutely in, well, control of the situation

[@ichimaru96]

​@@BillyONealand she's in CONTROL of an AGENCY. She fits the criteria perfectly 😂

[@BillyONeal]

@@ichimaru96 *Plays The Old Gods of Asgard* TAKE CONTROL

[@ichimaru96]

@@BillyONeal you've just reminded me that i should listen to it again for the hundredth time

[@computernoise2209]

It helps that she doesn't really have a personality or heavily react to or care about anything. The least controversial character: someone who no one can really form an opinion on.

[@bubbasbigblast8563]

Bland Girl Getting Thrashed is the new Bald Space Marine.

[@DrRESHES]

lol

[@fictionfan0]

Now this is just inaccurate. All the space marines I know wear helmets, so how would *you* know if they're actually bald?

[@dragon1130]

​@@fictionfan0 they gotta be bald. Otherwise they'd non-stop complain about their helmet hair.

[@pickledparsleyparty]

I'd argue these two are more common than that: 1. Madame Eyeroll and her merry band of chucklefucks (Kait in Gears 5, for example) 2. The holy and righteous center of everyone's universe (I actually think this is the one Lara Croft embodies, now) But as I think about it, maybe this reflects female values in some way. Eyeroll evokes "ugh, boys are so stupid" jokes I would get from my girl friends back in school while my guy friends and I were jumping off the roof onto the trampoline. And the "holy and righteous center of the universe" has huge "daddy's girl" vibes. Even the "victim of constant brutality" trope speaks to arguments that women love to start about which gender endures the most pain over the course of their lives. Maybe these tropes actually do come from interviewing girls who play videogames. Meanwhile, Yahtzee points out that men push through pain and dive into it. But we're raised on activities that hurt us as kids. Football, karate, general rough housing with friends outside. And we're told not to let pain affect us. So the dudes in those games speak to our experiences and values.

[@2400dimension]

Damn, preach the truth!😂

[@manwithnosmarts]

In Alien, Ellen Ripley's character was originally written as a male, but they later changed their gender without modifying the rest of the script. The result is a character who has actual agency in the story. When they get back to the ship after the encounter with the face hugger, she refuses to let her crew on board to avoid breaking quarantine. It all goes to hell after they get into the ship anyway, but at least there's that moment of her demonstrating her authority. In Alien Isolation, it always struck me how Amanda Ripley lacks that confidence. She gets into the whole situation because she's searching for her mother, but as soon as she's on the station she's following orders till the end credits. There's no real instance where she demonstrates leadership or craftiness (besides the literal crafting system). She's an engineer, yet she has to be told what to do and where to go. One moment that really stuck with me was when the station's Marshal betrays you, leaving you for dead. You manage to get back to safety, the Marshal calls you and says that he's sorry but he had to do what he did for the greater good. I was thinking "damn, I wonder what Ripley is going to do when she sees him again. Will she kill him? Will she threaten him into giving her more control over the station?" but before that can happen, an android kills him in a radio message. Then it's back to Ripley trying to find someone who can tell her what to do next. In contrast, Dead Space Remake's version of Isaac Clarke is full of authority. Similar to Amanda, he's searching for a loved one in a dangerous space vessel full of monsters. However, when the team decided to make Isaac a voiced protagonist in the remake, they rewrote all of the game's dialogue to make him an ACTUAL expert in his field. In the original, characters tell you where to go and what to do. In the remake, Isaac thinks out loud to himself on what his options are, how he can apply his engineering experience to the dire situation, swears angrily at the monsters he fights, has disagreements with the survivors on the ship. He has agency, and the story of the game is far more engaging because of it. I'm tired of these female characters that are at once shown to be exceptionally skilled while also constantly in need of guidance and lacking in conviction.

[@hilgigas09]

With the idea that Ripley was originally male, the softer moments with Newt are more interesting. As a woman it’s expected for Ripley to care for a child, but her more heroic moments stick out because it subverts expectations. If Ripley was male, taking care of a child would be what sticks out. I wish more characters had, seemingly, contradictory aspects to their personalities. Also the crew ignoring the woman is very on brand.

[@manwithnosmarts]

@@hilgigas09 Yeah, what’s fascinating about the crew ignoring Ripley though is, due to her being written as a man, her gender is never explicitly brought up when she confronts Dallas about the incident later on. I feel like if it was written today, Ripley would have some obvious speech about workplace discrimination or how she worked hard to get where she is. Instead, she’s assertive of her position and rightfully bashes him for putting the entire crew at risk. You can read into them disobeying her orders as writing her off as a woman, which is a fair reading, but I think there’s something genuinely empowering about her coming down on Dallas not as a woman, but as a Warrant Officer who knows what she’s doing. I think a problem I have with a lot of modern media that aims to craft strong female characters is the characters are strong IN SPITE of their gender, rather than just strong to begin with. In the Tomb Raider reboots it’s about Laura BECOMING strong. In the original Tomb Raider, she’s already a gun slinging adventurer from moment one. You can have a strong female character encounter sexism or discuss it, but I think constantly portraying the whole “overcoming” aspect as the one and only narrative for female characters is counter productive to actually crafting strong female characters.

[@multiverserift]

Like Metroid "switch off all your systems, Samus" Other M

[@cookieface80]

Actually the character written with either gender in mind. The sequel is very obviously written with the knowledge that she's a woman though.

[@a_grin_without_a_cat]

Damn dude, you've just sold me this game. I watched a couple of reviews but somehow missed out that they gave a voice to Isaac.

[@MindOfGenius]

I think a big thing here is also in a key word choice: "Suffer" being confused for or used instead of "struggle". Struggle implies effort, and suffer implies things happening TO YOU.

[@kristoffer8609]

Lara Croft destroys a thousand men. Even though realistically she'd struggle beating one, being frailer and smaller than them. But sure, that's not "effort" I guess.

[@kap1618]

​@@kristoffer8609That's the difference between gameplay and cutscenes. In cutscenes Lara gets the sh*t beaten out of her but in gameplay she's fine.

[@kristoffer8609]

@@kap1618 Well it's good she isn't some invulnerable superhero at least some parts of the game.

[@PhysicsGamer]

@@kristoffer8609 That's kind of the problem, though. In the old games she was a literal adrenaline junkie who went on stupidly dangerous adventures to fulfill her addiction. In the new games she just has stuff happen to her that she can't avoid. Which isn't very fun to play, so the actual *gameplay* segments are either Standard FPS Combat With Mild Stealth Elements #6658495 or QTEs. Of the two, it's pretty obvious which one would have better gameplay/story integration, at least.

[@kristoffer8609]

​@@PhysicsGamer Seems like a decent way to differentiate the character from earlier versions. I love the original games, but I doubt the same kind of story beats would be accepted by 'mainstream' outlets these days. I can already envision headlines such as "Lara is portrayed as a mindless woman who only lives to satisfy base urges, furthering anti-feminist stereotypes against women!". We all know the routine by now.

[@Spelonker]

You mention it, but original Lara's motivation is simply that she's an adrenaline junkie. No tragic backstory or responsibility, the manual for the first game says she just happened to get stranded in a plane crash, managed to survive and make it back to civilisation, was changed by the experience, then rebelled against her stuffy upper-class expectations by taking her cool auntie's mansion and money and spending it on adventures. The Tomb Raiding is just an excuse for the action. Her parents aren't even dead either; you can see them in Chronicles at her funeral, Lara just doesn't like them. I get that there are interesting stories to be told about duty and responsibility forcing you to find inner strength (Death Stranding being a recentish male-centric one), but people with strong desires are admirable and, if you into them, sexy. It would be nice for a feminist AAA game to be about a woman, physically sexy or not, who chases desires and doesn't exist in a story that assume that's a bad thing.

[@LadyDoomsinger]

It's a reboot. Original lore is not applicable.

[@KingOfElectricNinjas]

Not to mention the reboot seemed to be built around the whole premise that the original Lara is nothing more than a sex object from a bygone era with nothing salvageable.

[@armelior4610]

That was also pretty realistic : some super rich people who don't know what to make with their money get into dangerous hobbies like going to space or extreme sports (the Virgin guy)

[@gwen9939]

Lara: "I HAVE to go". Some guy: "Why?" Lara: "I NEED IT!"

[@Deadbeat-Senpai]

Have you, played the new games? He literally said the reboot. Reboot Lara is not an adrenaline junkie, she nearly dies in a storm. She gets taken off to nearly get killed or, worse, by some guy in a cave. If you fuck up the quicktime, her skull gets split open, she gets impaled within 1 min of controlling her for fucks sake. She is meant to be a tragic heroine. You are thinking of old Lara and old Lara was more of a badass than fucking Nathan Drake from the first time you get to move her. Look, I get you think you know what he's saying here, you super don't. I'm still fucking traumatized by just how brutal her deaths are in the reboot, feels like torture porn half the time. Old Lara screws up, I don't get a cutscene of her impaled, gasping for air as the last fires in her eyes dies out, knowing she's in immense pain. It cuts to black, and she goes off being a badass again.

[@A.C_B.]

These protagonists are just straight up in an abusive relationship with their own story. They get beaten up, starved, isolated, traumatised and when friends try telling them to get out, they just say "I have to do this".

[@Simplebutsandy]

In CYOA books the first choice was always something like "Do you go into the abandoned theme park/school/forest, or do you just go home?", and if you took the option to go home then you'd get a single page telling you that you had a boring uneventful evening, the end. Obviously the core contrivance of the book is that you, the reader, would want to continue on the adventure and see what's happening inside. Some might even offer a flimsy justification for going in, usually with stakes as low as your friends calling you chicken. Anyway, it raises an important question that a lot of writers kind of ignore: what's the worst thing that would happen if the protagonist *didn't* engage with the story and just stayed at home? There has to be something at stake otherwise their motivations make no sense. If the character can't answer the simple question of "why?" then the entire story is kind of pointless, even if it takes a couple of whys to get there. Why does old Lara tomb raid? Because she's good at it and it pays the bills. Why does nu-Lara tomb raid? Because "I have to"

[@lordxmugen]

@@Simplebutsandy "Why does old Lara tomb raid? Because she's good at it and it pays the bills." Not even . She literally does it out of adventure and to satisfy an addiction. And the WHOLE POINT of CORE designs series is inevitability of how it kills you. There is no ride out into the sunset. No final boss and a job well done. Most of the time shes "heroic" by circumstance and coincidence. No she "dies" locked in a pyramid with a rival. Its how this should always end.

[@Sorain1]

@@Simplebutsandy Funny thing, one of the best CYOA stories I read essentially bifurcated the story into two totally different genres based on that 'obvious exit' choice. If you went into the spooky abandoned factory, it became essentially a Resident Evil style horror about solving and surviving a dangerous unknown place. If you said 'nope' to that, the story picked up a few days later when the threat had already started subverting people and became a thriller centered on 'who can I trust?' ala The Thing, centered on figuring out who isn't trustworthy while getting word out rather than directly solving the issue. I really wish I could remember the title because damn it addressed that nicely.

[@cekodokdurian]

​@@Sorain1Let me know if you remembered the title. Cause damn it sound good

[@travellerinthedark]

@@Sorain1 That sounds really clever!

[@socalminstrel]

Honestly, I thought the most telling bit in that quote was the part Yahtzee didn't read: "When people play Lara, they don't really project themselves into the character." Whether or not that's true for earlier games, if you take that as a mission statement, of course you're going to create characters-as-objects in future games. Acting like that's an immutable characteristic of Lara or any other character and something you have to "work around" is a remarkable lack of imagination in a creator.

[@Shepsus]

I was thinking about that too, actually. Cause Far Cry 5 allows you to pick a sex, and I happened to pick female instead of male for no other reason that I don't often play women in my games... But her actions and title of "Deputy" and healing yourself by putting your finger back into its socket doesn't change. But me/my character were definitely badass. I don't know if it is gender affirming or just gender erasing in that aspect, cause it wasn't a character with a voice. But either way, I played a cool character that I see as me, even though she happened to have tits.

[@MoskalMedia]

The assumption that male players are unwilling or unable to relate to a female lead like Lara Croft seems to be the core issue. If a writer can't imagine themselves relating to the character they create, how can they expect their audience to relate?

[@kerricaine]

​@@ShepsusI got the same feeling from mass effect; guy shep is a typical, tough guy space marine who saves the galaxy. Femshep feels more badass and her relationships more complex by the nature of her being a woman. Guy shep and garrus are bros. Femshep and garrus have a close relationship that could've been romantic, but other factors got in the way, yet they're still closer than anyone else.

[@kerricaine]

@@MoskalMedia I mean, any time I could, I always preferred playing female characters. They were more relatable. Oops🏳️‍⚧️

[@Respectable_Username]

Oh gosh, that additional bit of quote is dire. It just straight up assumes the player isn't a woman who's keen to play a game as a protagonist who looks like them for once, like me when I played the games. Why _shouldn't_ the player project themselves onto Lara, game creator? Why does your model of who'll be playing this game not include people who look like your protagonist? Shows such a stunning lack of self-awareness 🙄

[@johnnydarling8021]

"Hey, is that lady drowning?" *"It's just a game."* "Is it the point of the game?" *"Depends on what mood you're in."*

[@KingOfElectricNinjas]

Kinda funnily reminds me that og Lara Croft also had some pretty graphic deaths, mostly as a result of the games being built around relatively realistic takes on platforming; jumping off the top of the stairs in her own mansion will end up with her breaking her neck, and all. Of course, that isn't quite as lingered on as it seems to be in the reboot games...

[@gutsmasterson2488]

Something notable about this comment and this user is that they have a Samus Aran profile picture. Samus being a character defined by how much agency she has.

[@R3GARnator]

Ryona.

[@ashleywilliams4896]

Spaced reference

[@agentduck9285]

good reference

[@smartperson1]

For real I started playing the Tomb Raider reboot just recently and I thought to myself "this is just a Lara Croft PTSD Simulator".

[@DragonNexus]

It's a game of D&D where every roll she makes is a 1, and the DM contrives a way in which it doesn't result in the character's death.

[@flatline42]

It's the universe trying to stop Laura from becoming the sith lord killing villages and crap in the 3rd game. The third game is the epilogue to the tragedy of the universe failing to kill Laura in the first two games.

[@rikamayhem]

@@DragonNexus She rolls a 1 on every skill check but a 20 on every saving throw.

[@NatalieRath]

MY OLD FRIEND LITERALLY WATCHED HER DIE IN EVERY WAY. I avoided dying as much as possible because all of her death scenes felt like someone with a gore fetish. Yes, someone on the team definitely has a gore fetish.

[@ChristianBawden]

"Role playing as what? the victim?"

[@Axetwin]

Another dynamic between the way men and women are written when it comes to the suffering they endure is men are more likely to get out of it through force, they endure because they're tough and manly. Women (usually) get out of those situations through some sort of oversight by the villain or through sheer dumb luck.

[@DragonNexus]

Or pure perseverance. Her own gumption and will power that she never knew she had. Whereas men are fully confident that even when things are bad, they'll still make it out okay because they're skilled enough already.

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

As an AMAB I wish more male characters had dumb luck and villain oversights.

[@anthologist7895]

That dynamic feels sort of like taking the wrong idea from stories that use gender-driven solutions to problems. Traditionally, males tend to lean toward brute strength or raw endurance, while females tend to use cunning intellect and either manipulative or heartfelt emotion. It's like Disney's Mulan (the animated one!) (Not the reboot!). Mulan ends up a capable fighter by the end of the film, able to stand on even footing with the male soldiers, but her real power comes from her quick, out-of-the-box thinking. But what do you do when you're a writer who doesn't know how to write intelligent or emotionally competent characters, let alone use those traits to solve problems? The only solution you're left with is dumb luck. X'D

[@Axetwin]

@@youtubeuniversity3638 I don't know what AMAB means.

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

@@Axetwin Assigned Male At Birth. Am Nonbiner but spent quite a bit as a "man" and still pretend it some because I don't quite feel safe being out in IRL.

[@jeremyhawkins5278]

I think the thing is that you're supposed to imagine yourself as Joel and you're supposed to see Lara as an entity seperate from you. Which is a way of making characters where you assume the player is a guy.

[@superbnns]

So we're back to square one then

[@trequor]

So annoying compared to shining early examples like Metroid.

[@CarolinaHeart]

@@trequor metroid is interesting example because she never takes off her helmet, allowing the player to envision themselves as her through her space marine appearance

[@trequor]

@@CarolinaHeart Depends on the game for that one. Plenty of mid-later titles give zoom in reaction shots of her face. Metroid Prime has the cool effect where bright flashes of life allow you to see her face reflected in the visor

[@cameronwise-maas5610]

Dumber than that, even, it assumes the player is a guy who can’t relate to women.

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

A good case-study on this is the Hades games. Zagreus could not possibly have less of a case of the have-tos because his only motivation for leaving the underworld is the pure stubborn hubris of wanting to get back at his disaffected father and general ennui of being down their all the time. He changes as a character because he efforts actually manage to get him somewhere even though he himself isn't entirely convinced he can make a difference until he actually does and others chose to support him in his struggle. And with this new difference-making capacity aquired, he fixes his family's interpersonal problems. Meliinoe, however, has practically the limit case of the have-tos practically from the day she was born. She has the intrinsic motivation of saving her family and exacting revenge from the old-man-who-constantly-needs-to-be-told-the-same-lesson form Spongebob, bu tit's grossly overshadowed by the fact that reality itself turns into a totalitarian hellscape or may evne come apart altogether if she doesn't do it. But the game still doesn't frame her conflict as something that just happens to her by one simple nod throughout the plot: nobody, even most of the people who support her, is convinced she can actually accomplish the one thing she was born to do (I.E the universal experiance of being an artist.) So the whole thing goes full circle and goes from being about what everyone else would impose on Melinoe and what Melinoe actually wants. She wants to prove everyone wrong the same way Zagreus did. Zagreus proving everyone wrong is the _real_ reason she was born -- not killing Time -- because his quest brought Persephone back to the underworld where she had another child with Hades. So that's another way of getting it right. I don't think the problem is rooted in misogyny, but it is very misogyny ajacent in that it's clearly rooted in gender norms of female passivity. Existing AAA female protagonists a step in the right direction in some ways because it shows we're aware of and grappling with a new understanding femininity on the collective level, but at the same time it reveals how much further we can go if we choose to: before we though the problem was sexualization when the _real_ problem is infantlization. Women in AAA games aren't beign treated as sex objects so much as hapless children. Put it like that, and suddenly Lara's imbecility makes sense. She's wandering around like an infant determined to jam a fork into an electrical outlet.

[@VoidNull9222]

I’ll never forget playing the first game in the Tomb Raider reboot when Lara uses a lighter and an arrow to cauterize a wound and there’s this extended scene where she’s just screaming and crying afterwards. I’m sitting on my couch thinking ‘why am I watching this woman suffer?’ What’s the point of this scene other than to make me feel uncomfortable watching it? I didn’t feel any sense of connection to Lara or determination to keep playing, I just felt bad

[@LadyDoomsinger]

It's a survival action game. Marketed 18+, bad language, violence. Wtf did you buy it for??? And I don't mean "survival" as in "crafting and hunger meters" I mean "survival" as in Robinson Crusoe style. Surviving the elements, dealing with injuries, escaping a traumatic experience is literally the whole point of the genre.

[@Fools3rrand]

I think that's deliberately missing the point both the video and the commenter are making. The framing and gratuitous violence differ vastly between a male and female protagonists. When Nathan Drake gets impaled through by debris whilst escaping a collapsing structure he groans and mutters about it for a second or two and then proceeds to shamble his way away from the wreckage with a resolute look. When Lara gets battered around like a ragdoll and ultimately manages to scrabble away from a collapsing structure and she gets impaled we spend half a minute watching her writhe in agony before crawling away, followed by however long it takes to heal herself just listening to her cry, scream and sob. It's downright pornographic the focus on the suffering that male protags just don't get. Point me to as many male leads that get their shit stuffed the same way Ellie, Lara, and Senua do and I'll buy you lunch for the next month.

[@GodOfGames523]

@@LadyDoomsinger You see tons of different games in similar setting and there they don't make half a big a deal as they do in the lara croft games, hell in the far cry games the healing mechanic is literally a 3 second cutscene of the characters all bad ass curing their injuries in 3 seconds and then keep kicking ass after, haven't seen Nathan Drake having a 3 min cutscene of him crying, puking and shitting himself after getting a bullet wound, all while he is grunt and screaming The ultimate survival action game, Metal Gear Solid 3, has Big Boss with two legs and an arm broken, bleeding through all hell, literally fix all of it in less than 30 seconds, which just makes you think ''omg he is so cool'' But when Lara Croft is the protagonist suddenly the game needs to have the focus on how much it hurts poor Lara, the cool action protagonist, how hard it is to survive in the wilderness, how much pain she has to go through, look at her whimper, look at her cry, look at her hyperventilate, LOOK at how much she has to suffer to be a cool action character! as if she is a poor little forest creature :C Suddenly when the characters is a woman trying to survive they cannot be cool, they can only suffer, they cannot have cool one liners, they cannot be confident, and they cannot face adversity without breaking down

[@aezakmi42]

@@LadyDoomsinger What the heck is going on with you? You're all over this comment section trying to defend torture p0rn being over-emphasised in action stories as being 'realistic' and telling people they're weak and silly because they don't share your weird obsession with watching people suffer. Not every piece of media has to be a horror story just to be compelling, at least not to most people. If you need to see constant, gleefully emphasised pain and suffering just to make a story relatable for you, that's your problem, you might want to seek therapy; it's not a 'normal' or 'standard' part of the genre that people just need to 'get used to'.

[@MindOfGenius]

@@LadyDoomsinger To be honest, I played the first Tomb Raider reboot because I went "neat, let's see how they reboot the franchise; I'm interested in how they're gonna show her 'early days' of being an explorer". After the first hour or so I was left wondering just who the heck Laura was because she sounded so whiny...then I remembered "Oh yeah, so THIS is her ORIGIN story, let's see if she's a bad-ass by the end of it". I enjoyed the game, even if Mother Nature punished her recklessness one too many times to be believable.

[@Paledoptera]

the fact that these new aaa games are "in the pursuit of realism" and portray women as helpless victims of literally everything around them says a LOT about the developers. it's not surprising though, considering the track records of some AAA studios.

[@Emblematicify]

I'm just glad Yahtzee exists. This is a great critique of story-writing in games in general, in addition to how they deal (usually not very well) with female protagonists.

[@donowa5637]

0:24 i'd invest in giant shit proof hamster balls

[@donowa5637]

​@@GreyWolfLeaderTWget oxygen tanks

[@dlige99thefifth94]

I think Lea from Crosscode is another pretty great example of a indie female protagonist done well, especially since her partial mutism and how she cleverly works around it sometimes makes her interesting to watch. That and how she has her own goals and stories, of which involves gaining control of her own life and agency, especially after a few pretty big reveals. Maybe Yahtz might like it cause of the puzzles, or maybe it might be too much cause some of those puzzles are insane with the amount of parts involved in them.

[@DragonNexus]

The puzzles are honestly what bounced me off for a while. The light bouncing puzzle felt like I was breaking the game with how precise it expected me to be.

[@NotaWalrus1]

I really enjoyed how much personality she managed to get out despite her partial mutism. That game lost me at points but I can't fault the characterization of the main character at all.

[@Comrade_Liru]

Crosscode will probably be one of my favourite games for a long while (not even putting some restriction like 'Best game with a female protagonist' on it), solely because of Lea and Emilie being such fun characters to watch, and because seeing Lea's personality come through despite her partial mutism. Her abuse of the word 'Why' when she first gets it will forever be one of my favourite moments in a game :P The puzzles, though...jeez, those were nuts. But yeah, top-tier Protag, female or not.

[@TheMinecraftMan757]

CrossCode mentioned

[@AbdurraheemRaqib10243]

@@DragonNexus Practice makes perfect. I urge you to revisit the game, if you haven't already (lol). They can be tricky, but are by no means "The Witness" levels of difficult, thankfully you can figure out most of them just from observation alone.

[@ProjectChimeraEnhancedCo-cc2th]

I have complex opinions here. The first is that there's no specific reason we shouldn't have action oriented female protagonists and we shouldn't necessarily shield them from harm as an abstract way to "show concern for women" and that kind of feminism seems to have gone to the opposite extreme where video games saw that note and took it to mean "OK, we won't do that, we'll put them in constant torture porn scenes instead" as if there's no middle ground. This also plays off of a base "need to protect women" which also still undermines female agency, as does the "I have to do this for the male protagonist" or "I'm not physically capable of withstanding punishment the way male protagonists are" and that's kind of... suspect at best. It's like they understood the bit about not overly shielding women protagonists and missed the feminist point entirely because the inherent sexism is still present. I'd agree strongly they are still just wank dolls of a different variety, and a lot of this comes in from lacking female perspective in the industry. I'm not saying that there should be no gritty torture porn (for example WH40K comes to mind as a franchise that thrives on this and predominantly features male protagonists though also features women as well), but that the sudden reversal from buxom fuck doll to torture porn addicted heroine is definitely a mark that they got the note but didn't understand the point, and yes, a lot of that is just down to plain ignorance and lack of writing ability to understand a character arc because so many writers are shit, or alternatively, that they would produce better stories if not for meddling C-Suite Execs who want to cash in on that sweet sweet torture porn demographic. It's not weird to say that there's still a dollar to be made by exploiting male sexual power fantasies involving women, this is just a new way to milk that dollar rather than getting a hint and creating three dimensional characters with story arcs. One of the reasons as you mentioned was that this is a AAA problem, ie, places where they usually aren't noted for having senior female personel, where as when we see indie games with female writers we tend not to see this problem repeated over and over. It's just code talk for male power fantasy again, it's the code talk of saying "I have christian values" rather than saying "I hate trans people" because the latter is unpopular to say. So we stopped putting women in bikinis and started putting them in torture porn. It's the same shit, and frankly I'm not sure how much this isn't on purpose as I'm generally suspect of rich dickhead CEOs as any smart person should be. They don't really care about ethics they care about shareholders, and if this is the "new and improved" version of sexualizing women in an acceptable way, and that moves copies and earns the shareholders more in the short term, then that's what they are going to do. I honestly think though the problem is bigger than the execs because it's reflective of culture. If there wasn't a demographic for women in torture porn video games suffering constant sexualized violence, the CEOs wouldn't do that, they do whatever else made them the most money. As such it's also dependent upon the consumer not to just willingly lap up all consumerist bullshit produced by the AAA industry and have some thoughtful restraint and demand better writing, but let see how that goes. Doesn't seem to have worked so far.

[@jax5683]

While I understand Yahtzee's takes, I can instantly think of an example of this kind of thing happening to a male character, in a game from the month of the same year as the Tomb Raider Reboot--- Booker Dewitt, Bioshock Infinite. Booker gets tossed around like a ragdoll and his reaction to every new vigor is pretty much extreme pain. A lot of the time he relies on Elizabeth to save him, like when he's dangling from a blimp and need her to help.

[@queengames8421]

I think the key word here is "vulnerability". It's one thing to depict a character going through danger, it's another matter entirely to depict them as uniquely vulnerable to that danger. The only two games I can think of that frame violence in this way on a male character would be Resident Evil 7 and 8. And that's really the rub, isn't it? Ethan is a survival horror protagonist. With the exception of maybe Senua, none of the games listed are really meant to be full on horror games. Especially something like Tomb Raider. So why is the violence inflicted on him so unique even within his own genre, yet so common in non-horror games when it comes to women? It's just weird, man. I do think you're right that it's mostly ignorance rather than willful distaste.

[@smergthedargon8974]

Have you not played Dead Space? Every game in that series has a laundry list of horrible ways for Isaac to die.

[@queengames8421]

​@@smergthedargon8974 Dead Space is another good example, I can't believe I forgot about that.

[@smergthedargon8974]

@@queengames8421 Survival horror protags tend to get put through the ringer regardless of sex - see the protags of both Outlast games. One loses several fingers, the other is the only video game protagonist I know of who _gets raped on screen._

[@Catalyst375]

I think the reason the violence inflicted upon him is so gruesome is because of how story-relevant his shrugging off the violence actually is. He's a mass of Mold who kept living and kept his free will through sheer willpower, and he was just an ordinary guy at the start of RE 7.

[@queengames8421]

@@Catalyst375 Oh, absolutely. I'm just pointing out how comparatively rare it is to see that happen to a male character in game.

[@Serratiger]

I always found Samus to be a great example to talk about this topic, with "Other M" sticking out as the sore one that doesn't fit her general characterization, whereas otherwise we see her very briefly react to things in some in-game cutscenes, yet after the game we can get several clips of her enjoying herself in her everyday life, and I think that speaks about her so much better.

[@Catalyst375]

As far as I am aware, Other M's issues partly stem from localization. You can find videos discussing the changes from the original Japanese to the Western version.

[@MARCSEIDis]

​@@Catalyst375localization or not, Samus's characterization in Other M was still just flat out bad

[@denmark1226]

I appreciate the pictures of Samus bumming around her ship in a matching set of shorts and small top, mostly because I too enjoy bumming around my house in my shorts

[@adrianpadin1840]

@@Catalyst375 Localization is part of it, but if you read interviews with Yoshio Sakamoto its very apparent that he wanted to show Samus as vulnerable and subservient to a male authority figure. That is how the primary conflict of the game - between her and Adam - is framed. The point was for Samus to overcome that subservience and emerge stronger than when she started, but its written so clumsily that the point is lost. Even in the final sequence of the game, Adam stops her from destroying the Metroids and steals her moment of heroism by sacrificing himself instead, and he does it by literally shooting her in the back and disarming her to put her in a position of weakness compared to him. His sacrifice is supposed to be seen as inspiring but instead its infuriating because he's taking Samus's place as the hero of the story. It's clumsy writing by a man who had no experience trying to write such a dramatic story.

[@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502]

​@Catalyst375 the localisation certainly made it worse, no denying that, but a lot of the fundamental issues are still there in Japanese

[@DoctorTheo]

I do think this comes from the want to look more progressive, but then trying so hard at it that it eventually becomes regressive. It's like really wanting gay representation, and then using the worst gay stereotypes you can imagine

[@IEcLiPsEI95]

​​@@NeoBluereaper but, anime had samurai with hip hop and Miles is a composer and an artists, that's why he has hip hop motif

[@olivercharles2930]

@@NeoBluereaper I don't mind the Yasuke thing honestly. Is it super realistic? Nah. But it sounds fun. Too bad they just decided to treat him like a stereotypical african american instead.

[@Eden_Laika]

I'd argue it stems more from a desire to _appear_ progressive, coupled with a lack of desire to actually understand the progressivism they're trying to ape. It's the _aesthetic_ of feminism, i.e. it has a woman in it, and she's wearing kind of normal clothes, with none of the substance of feminism, i.e. she has basically no agency and her character is still focused around the desires of the assumed-male player, explicitly in the case of Lara Croft.

[@alexgrunde6682]

It’s the combination of laziness and dudebros being the only creatives in the room. Have a nuanced, strong female lead, but no one making the game has any personal experience with being a strong, nuanced woman. But bringing people in who would, well that sounds like work and money that could be spent on rendering extra skin pores. So instead we get the most superficial version of “nuanced, strong female lead.”

[@youngthinker1]

The old "no true Scotsman" argument eh?

[@madcat789]

Thats it. Im going to make my own game, with a female protagonist, a female antagonist, and you the player are just along for the ride as the protagonist *wants* to kick the ass of the antagonist. There will be Blackjack, and Hookers.

[@Thepsicho22]

There is a girl, she is the leader of an organization. There is another Girl, she is a private investigator trying to get enough evidence to take down the organization. both are the protagonists, both are the antagonists. You, on the other hand, are a lowly gopher-for hire. Your multiple jobs keep your pantry stocked and the debtors at bay. The aforementioned gals are your employers. Do your job well enough to keep it. Avoid getting stuck between bosses. If one of your employers gets too far ahead of the other, one of your jobs will be in danger. Unless you have enough promotions under your belt, one job is not enough to keep yourself afloat.

[@agt_pendergast8899]

Sounds like Portal.

[@Semudara]

This made me think of Shantae, lol.

[@Sorain1]

@@Thepsicho22 The only climax to that I can see is both girls realizing someone must be keeping them in balance with each other at the same time, and eventually confronting the player, acting like this is some master manipulator responsible for all the things that have happened during the story they've finally seen through. My thoughts on an ending: Confrontation ensues and after fending them off protagonist finally openly unloads on both of them about all the BS they went through and that their motive was literally just to survive, they had no long term plan, no goal or asperations beyond living one more day and the vague hope to eventually find a way out of the situation. So they quit, because they are not dealing with either boss anymore. (or at least that should be one of the ending options. Like the Refusal ending to mass effect 3 really should have been there from day zero.)

[@jeffbezos3200]

I mean, in Last of Us 2’s case…the first game beat the everliving shit out of Joel pretty regularly. The biggest time being when he got the spike through his side. Also, getting his face ripped in half by bloaters, nearly having glass rammed through his neck…and let’s not forget the second game where get gets bludgeoned to death with a golf club. The game isn’t necessarily relishing in violence against women, it’s just a very violent game

[@TheNerdCeption]

Man, the first Tomb Raider rebooth felt borderline pornographic in it's depiction of violence against Lara, some of the quick time events that led to death, all full of moaning and grunting, honestly made me want to take a shower afterwards.

[@TriforceWisdom64]

I've always thought that opinion was silly. Fallout 3 came out like a decade earlier. Outlast has a male protagonist getting literally tortured by inmates. Tomb Raider feels totally normal to me.

[@kanden27]

I remember I kept dying to the sliding down the water fall getting impaled and even the QTE where you can get choked out by the strong guy. I just kept failing those for some reason and it was disturbing watching her die.

[@MrCatchTwenty2]

@@TriforceWisdom64 I can't think of anything particularly graphic in fallout 3 but outlast is a horror game. It makes more sense for there to be graphic violence than an action game that seems to have a running gag or horribly maiming the protagonist.

[@daanstrik4293]

@@TriforceWisdom64I don’t know much about fallout 3’s violence. But isn’t the goal of the outlast torture scenes to be uncomfortable? They make me uncomfortable anyway

[@LadyDoomsinger]

I thought we were past the "violence in video games is bad" nonsense? Like 3 decades ago. Read the box. Warning labels are there. Viewer discretion is advised. It's on you if you don't like it.

[@underscore_5450]

Yeah, stuff like that has always come across as a little fetishistic to me. Some artist slaved over their desktop for hundreds of hours drawing women in various states of getting beaten to death and they almost seem to revel in it. It reminds me of stuff like Terrifyer in a way. At what point does it stop being edgy and start being borderline pornagraphic in nature?

[@R3GARnator]

Ryona is that point.

[@TheStrangeBloke]

Its not even that its pornographic, its that its bad character writing in service of fanservice,

[@julianemery718]

​@TheStrangeBloke Fanservice? What Fanservice? Who are these fans the Fanservice is aimed towards may I ask?

[@alexsummerdown831]

Bayonetta QTE: *She deals the finishing blow to a big mean angel.* Splatterhouse QTE: *Masked man navigates ruined environment to reach different map.* Laura Croft QTE: *Pries off a collapsed cave structure on her calf.* I know BJ and Croft absorb injuries like sponges, but why does it feel like BJ’s luck is public execution and trading bodies amidst thwarting fascists, while Laura’s luck is just Mother Nature’s against her 12 minutes after you hit “New Game.”?

[@Cosmitzian]

Well.. there is that one supposed and implied threat of rape scene in the first reboot Croft game.

[@cookieface80]

@@Cosmitzian Yeah but Squeenix ended up denying it in interviews.

[@Cosmitzian]

@@cookieface80 Relatively weakly, "oh, no, she was just going to get brutally murdered, not anything else!"

[@sterling7]

I'm kind of... Not sure "fond" is quite the right word... Of the theory that BJ Blazkowicz doesn't actually survive his execution, and the rest of the game (complete with multiple references to "Valhalla") is either his afterlife or the hallucinations of his dying brain. "Youngblood" kind of quashes the notion, though.

[@blarg2429]

@@sterling7 Not trying to be rude about it, but dream theories, hallucination theories etc very rarely manage to do more than undercut the narratives they're adding onto.

[@goblinsrevenge]

The whole “you want to protect her” is a bit daft because all you need to do is make a character likeable and/or their motivations understandable and it will generate that response naturally. We want to protect Nathan Drake because he’s likable and we want to see him get the treasure first. We want to protect Kat from Gravity Rush because she’s fun, likable and wants to help others using her powers in both small and big ways. We want to protect Kratos because we also want to protect his son. We want to protect Spider-man because Marvel won’t stop hurting him and we just want to see him happy. Even if we have a character completely lacking any personality, for example Gordon Freeman, we still want to protect him because he’s just a guy who is having a really bad day at work and is trying hard to prevent it getting any worse. Constantly beating up your characters during cut scenes/set pieces in dramatic fashion and no way for them to fight back may make a player feel sorry for them to start with. However if you keep doing it over and over again eventually that sense of feeling sorry will drain away because the character is going to get right back up and move around as normal again once the scene is over anyways, so why get too invested?

[@aidangordon2713]

We need more fun female protagonists, games industry. Ones who own the moment, love doing so, and *don't* break down under pressure. Right now, we have The Boss from Saints Row and LEGO Aloy and... uhhhhh... Samus? I guess?

[@Miniman15]

What about like all of the life is strange series, clementine from the walking dead, Solaris, Ada wong, Jill valentine, Claire redfield, I mean the list goes on.

[@SirTyrin]

samus barely qualifies as a person in most metroid games tbh, her role could just as easily be done by a man or a robot because there is nothing there

[@DavidRichardson153]

What about Bayonetta, or did the drama from the original VA disqualify her?

[@aidangordon2713]

​@@Miniman15All great examples, too! As is Bayonetta, if you pretend 3 was a terrible film she did to pay the rent. (Umbran Witching doesn't pay well.)

[@firelordeliteast6750]

Actually I’d say default aloy gets a pass here. She might lack emotional expression but she certainly has her head on straight

[@EncryptedLiberty]

I think a lot of what we see here is the convergence of two things: the new movement to show the women as capable and empowered, "see, she can take a beating like a man! Even better than a man! She's tough! She's not a damsel!" But also with the millenia-old urge to view women as tender and fragile and something to be protected from the dangers of the world. So we get this almost fetishistic mix of the devs trying to make her seem tough but also trying to make you feel sympathy by smashing her face into a rock a dozen times. I agree with many here that in retrospect, the old way of handling female protagonists doesn't seem as bad as it once did. Sure, they were sexualized (I, for one, _have_ talked to women before and they *like* being sexy), but they were also very confident and capable. And even if they did occaisionally suffer at the hands of men they always came out on top somehow by virtue of being the protagonist.

[@Treviath]

As far as I understand it, any harm that comes to the original Lara Croft was a failstate that never canonically happened. Storywise she's competent to not get a single scratch in those tombs.

[@Treviath]

@@R3GARnator Which is exactly why I typed "As far as I understand it". If I had first hand experience, I would have worded it otherwise.

[@skyfox4072]

But the new tomb raider games are prequels. So it would make sense that she is not as competent as she was in older games and that she would get harmed due to inexperience.

[@simplysmiley4670]

Or it's a cutscene where she gets smacked in the back of her head with a wrench on a rocky seaplane and somehow getting out of it without brain damage.

[@PhysicsGamer]

@@skyfox4072 They're prequels, but to games that haven't actually been made. This is the third iteration of the series, and the idea was to have this one simply start "before" the previous two in Lara's personal timeline. But... the just keep _making_ that prequel, for some reason. There's been three games of Lara supposedly becoming Lara Croft, Tomb Raider, but she isn't really meaningfully closer to that at the end of the most recent game than she was at the end of the first.

[@SoldierDelta]

I legitimately tried so hard to think of a male main character that scores high on the "Eat Shit 'o' Meter" and frankly there's barely any that comes to mind, or at least in terms of actual characters. Harry from Disco Elysium, any of the main cast of Baldur's Gate 3 and the various Fallout protagonists get a lot of their shit kicked in, but it's not really in cinematic titles. Kratos, Nathan Drake and Peter Quill usually shrug it off, the various protagonists of the GTA and RDR series have varying luck but dodge their issues nine out of ten times, and that's of characters that legitimately do struggle. Resident Evil 2 Remake and Alan Wake 2 both have protagonists of both male and female archetypes but it seldom ever feels like they struggle except for like... one moment in Resi 2 Remake where Ada had a rod through her thigh... and that was at the end of a brief side character sequence. Okay. It's such an odd failure of writing. Depicting the lead character as a comedic fuck-up works well for setting a tone (see: Deathloop's Colt and Hi-Fi Rush's Chai), but they're intentional. Having a character get their shit kicked in is fine, but female protagonists shouldn't be the only ones having this happen 24/7. It's worse because it feels like so much detail is put into, let's be honest, incredibly off-putting moments. It at least makes sense in Hellblade, TLoU2 and A Plague Tale because they're clearly games designed around the tone of "shit getting kicked in", but what's Tomb Raider's excuse other than making Laura Croft a punching bag for the writers to make the players sympathize with her? Just as a general writing note, a character going through traumatic experiences is not a substitute for having actual writing. It's like trying to get an audience invested in a puppy after driving a railroad spike through it's paw, that's just abusing the audience instead of getting them invested in the story.

[@Ziel23987]

Disco Elysium is probably the best example. Fallout MC's are usually rather featureless, and it's hard to have this happen to poorly estabilished characters. Nameless One from Planescape: Torment can have a lot of gory things happen to him, described in excessive detail. Sometimes they are played for black comedy, because he keeps regenerating from them. But still, having him get his eye gouged out at least three separate times doesn't get any less disgusting, even if it is just text. In Stars and Time offers an interesting case, as we get access to Siffrin's unfiltered thoughts, and it is clear that he is in a lot of physical and mental pain. While there are some slapstick deaths, most of the time his issues are treated seriously.

[@julianemery718]

That last sentence, "abusing the audience-", I'd say that's a pretty good way of putting it. It could be said that the player is the one being punished/abused for... some reason.

[@thecactusman17]

I think it's an overreaction to the "what have YOU done to deserve your victory?" stance of masculine adventurers. For many male protagonists there's an assumed or explicit backstory of pain and suffering to explain why they are the abject badass deities of violence which they are. Combat vets, hardened criminals, growing up in a violent patriarchal society. Often some combination of all three. So from a masculine perspective the rich white girl needs to go through a whole prior lifetime of violence to "catch up" to the justification for why Master Chief can wake up from cryosleep and proceed straight to genociding every Covenant within the surrounding light-year.

[@Beta12328]

Best comment here.

[@sheets75]

I enjoyed Conan O'Brien's Clueless Gamer videos on the new Tomb Raider, in which he perved out on reboot Lara's ass and then was completely horrified by all of her disturbingly lengthy death scenes.

[@BinaryExplosions]

The reason is pretty simple. People feel more empathy for women in general, which is why we have spent most of history sending young men to die in wars while saying "women and children first" in the event of a disaster. For a man to have an emotional impact he has to be shown to be doing something pretty impressive. Being a quippy bag of charisma or a sack of murder bricks is the lazy approach to that in games. For a woman to be likeable, she just has to be not annoying. She has value just by virtue of being a woman. The lazy way to leverage this emotional capital is to put her in danger. Make you worry that the nice person might not be feeling so nice right now. It's not really misogyny or ineptitude, it's just lazy, shortcut-filled writing. Maximum emotion from minimal effort. The way to extract that emotion simply differs based on the sex o the character.

[@professorrubickmagusgrandi7909]

Lara didn't just get weirdly graphic deaths in the reboot. There's interviews with animators from the first games who talk about their mental health when all they did was animate different ways for her to die.

[@chrislail3824]

Have you played Dead Space?

[@professorrubickmagusgrandi7909]

@chrislail3824 no, but I've seen some of the gory deaths

[@masonasaro2118]

Meanwhile later mortal Kombat games make me question if the animators were right in the head to begin with... Same with the violence in later family guy episodes.

[@manzanito3652]

​@@masonasaro2118Idk about family guy, but with MK people got ptsd for wroking on it amd caused a little controversy. So it's a problem there too.

[@emilytheimp]

Welp, I trust Yahtzee way more than Id trust any other middle aged men trying to tell me about the portrayal of my own gender in media

[@elalaela2694]

Real

[@thelastholdout]

This comment is made funnier by the fact that your username identifies you as an "imp."

[@olivercharles2930]

I don't think you need to be female to judge the portrayal of women in media. Extreme hot take, I know.

[@emilytheimp]

@@olivercharles2930 Well yeah, but as this video has demonstrated, there is a ton of men still out there that dont know how to write a compelling female lead, yet are willingly put into that position regardless

[@LuisSoto-fw3if]

And how does that relate to your first comment? I don't follow ​@@emilytheimp

[@solidmaninbox]

I'm glad you brought up agency in the context of TLOU, because I've always felt that Ellie has spent basically ALL of her life having none. Yes, she COULD turn around and go home at any time, but she believes she'll regret it if she doesn't get closure in her own way, and it's basically the first time she's ever had that kind of agency (that we the audience know of). The ending was frustrating and I'm in the camp that believes that was the point, the protagonist not getting a happy ending has always been an unpopular move but I think in this case it adds a particular weight the story would otherwise be missing - for the first time in your life you're able to make decisions for yourself, and those choices cost you not only the loved ones you still had, but also severed the last ties you had to one you've lost - in this case, severed being her literal fingers Edits for spelling / omissions

[@TheSkaOreo]

Right. I mean that's kinda the point of TLOU: Joel steals her agency at the end of the first game and only really gets it back when she finally decides to back off, leave Joel's guitar, and sets off on her own.

[@esplodie3081]

I feel like they failed with the second game... Instead of making the game about Ellie being able to choose, which was taken away the first game, they went with the circle of revenge story. =\

[@sobversion3]

Nothing wrong with unhappy endings but the contrived nature of it and how "predictable" it was (in the sense that it was the _revenge is pointless_ trope constantly hammered home and taking its longest to come to fruition and it just leaves you @ the end like "bitch, why did it take you THIS long to get Abby's death doesn't salvage ANYTHING. )

[@Amra..]

"Revenge bad" is the most surface level interpretation of TLOU2 and the people always spouting it should probably take an english class

[@antzpantz]

Thank you for revisiting this in a Semi-Ramblomatic. I never forget the first time on Zero Punctuation when you mentioned that new Lara had no agency and it really nailed it on the head as to why I never enjoyed that reboot.

[@SENATAH]

I noticed too in other medium, in the Avatar sequel. Korra gets absolutely rekt (she even gets wheelchair bound). It was very uncomfortable

[@Lexolotl13]

"Why are the overtly sexy characters the only ones allowed to have some fucking control over their own lives?" For the same reason sexy people get lighter criminal sentencing, and are more likely to get a promotion.

[@Hysteria98]

Years ago a character's suffering and death was PUNISHMENT for failure, not REWARD for success. All linear, cinematic garbage video games are guilty of innnumerable game design crimes and this hasn't changed for over 15 years now. You could make an entire series on everything they do wrong, and even a few bonus videos on how to do them well, which no AAA developer fucking does.

[@julianemery718]

...Huh, Good point.

[@RespheaI]

Very good points, but I'd like to emphasize what was alluded to: Laura and Ellie's "have to" motivations are in service to men.

[@timecorn]

It was for the sake of their dads, what's your point?

[@IdioyStudiosPeridot]

⁠​⁠@@timecornNah, I see their point. Female characters motivated by their father figures are dime a dozen. (Ellie, Lara, Clementine, Heather.) In contrast, there are hundreds of male protags, yet I can’t think of a single one motivated by their mothers. If you can think of an example please tell me! I think it’d be a breath of fresh air to play as a son trying to honour their mother in some way.

[@lyingriotman2220]

@@IdioyStudiosPeridot The first one that sprang to mind is Ajay Ghale from Far Cry 4. His whole motivation for returning to Kyrat is to take his mother's ashes to his half-sister's grave. He even bonds with the main villain Pagan Min over their shared memory of her.

[@ThatGreenMach1ne]

HOLY SHIT i didn't even notice that.

[@kristoffer8609]

@@lyingriotman2220 Shhhh, don't make an actually good point that refutes the entire premise of the argument. These people can't handle that.

[@EricShoe]

This isn’t just a flaw of writing female characters, but of male as well. Writing males to just shrug off any pain/suffering is just as dumb as using torture to give female characters depth. We need to write both better and avoid reinforcing gender stereotypes.

[@leadpaintchips9461]

Well, someone in their positions, getting injured and beat up on the semi-regular, sucking it up and moving on because that's their life now makes a lot more sense for an action protagonist. TBH I'd like to see one of these 'origin' stories where they move from someone who is just starting to get their backend pushed in by their new life absolutely reacting to the amount of suffering that they're having to go through, and then at the end of their arc moving into the more stoic 'this is my life now, time to suck it up.'.

[@smergthedargon8974]

@@leadpaintchips9461 Isn't that what the first game of the modern Tomb Raider reboot did?

[@trequor]

Not quite: it should be genre-appropriate. No one questions Samus taking giant monster swipes like a champ, or diving in lava. By the same token male protagonists in survival horror games should be very vulnerable indeed

[@EricShoe]

@@trequor I agree. I’m referring to cinematic story-focused AAA games. If your game doesn’t focus on the narrative elements, that’s fine

[@PhysicsGamer]

@@EricShoe Even when you're focusing on the story, it's perfectly fine to have that story be about someone who is unrealistically capable - that's often the best option, in fact! It really depends on what kind of story it is, ultimately.

[@FireFox64000000]

I think part of the reason over-sexualized characters get more interesting backstories is because if you over sexualize a character it's a lot easier to get someone to pay attention until you can actually properly deliver a backstory. Sort of like giving an appetizer because you started the main course a little late and you need to properly cook it. The backstory needs time to be delivered. Time to cook. Time to let the smell wat through the dining room and make the players mouth water. With the less sexualized characters they're trying to give you tragedy in the now to hook you. It just doesn't have the same effect as tits. It doesn't allow them to hold you over till they can properly bake up a nice tragedy cake. They have to start off with tragedy and keep hitting you with tragedy and they kind of forget to bake some agency and motivation into the character. They're not giving themselves enough time to make a proper character. They just expect you to be hooked on a constant string of tragedy until the end. Which burns us out instead of engaging us.

[@Laurenmartinart]

This is funny because just last night I was playing Cyberpunk 2077, and I got to a bit where you're supposed to fist fight this person named Rhino. And you get to the location and it's this giant woman who just loves to fight and that's all she wants from you (and she's not drooly or dopey or anything, amazing!). I fell in love with Rhino instantly and would 200% play a game that starred her just running around punching people's teeth in.

[@ristoravela652]

Also, Rhino totally respects you after you win, unlike most of (all of?) the guys you fight.

[@m0us5avi]

The closing argument can be summarized as; A woman confident enough in her own gender identity to dress sexy as she kicks ass and takes names, is also confident enough to be in control of her own life and take ownership of her own goals.

[@essneyallen6777]

I think "these developers seem to think that only..." is missing from this summary

[@sandjack7294]

I think any story that tries to have an *action*-focused plot with a *reactive* protagonist is going to have problems like this. It's the other side of the coin from the over-protected Mary Sue; everyone has to hold them up, or the universe has to constantly beat the shit out of them, because they don't have any drive to be the hero when left to themselves.

[@garbage_bin]

Two shit proof umbrellas might still be too little. A whole shit submarine might be necessary.

[@TheMouseMasterYT]

KZbin user image checks out.

[@pirojfmifhghek566]

Good luck keeping the bots out of the airlock.

[@PhantomV13]

A submanure!... Sorry...

[@NorthernSeaWitch]

Let's hope it's better than that Titan submersible.

[@JonnySpec]

@@NorthernSeaWitch Hopefully it's closer to the DSV Limiting Factor than the Titan then.

[@cart00n_rabbit]

It certainly seems that, very often, the only plot device writers can think of to make a female character appear strong and tough is to put her through a meat grinder and have her emerge miraculously in one piece, hoping you'll say "wow, she survived all that, look how hardcore she is". Usually the actual impression is that she survived through sheer luck; in the case of the Tomb Raider prequels, this was true to the point that I often found myself laughing at the absurdity of the whole thing, like I was watching an inexplicably gritty Buster Keaton film.

[@denkillen]

As others have commented, this feels like writers wanting female protagonists who face adversity without it being related to their own flaws, because having any means they aren't truly strong for some reason. What's ironic about this trend is how it accidentally tracks with most men having a stronger internal locus of control and most women having a stronger external one. It could be interesting to turn an examination of that dynamic into a game, where the female protagonist has to learn to develop her internal locus of control and overcome the odds by her own merits. The problem is that taking away any agency from the player to simulate an external locus inherently creates situations that cannot be overcome. The challenge then would be in designing a gameplay system that gives the impression of strong external forces while actually allowing the player full agency in overcoming them.

[@ActuatedGear]

You ever seen Secret of Nimh? The best female protagonist ever is an illiterate widow caring for her sick child in a world of things ready to EAT HER, magic, and a backstabbing politician that's willing to sacrifice her for his own gain. Actually it sounds even better that way because it frames her weakness, her ignorance, and her inability to navigate and manipulate the world. Awesome! And she is forced into dealing with it all to protect what is most dear and then as the story goes on she takes on initiative to further the goal. She's even adorably conflicted and uncertain. And at the end she's wrestling with raw BURNING POWER in the hopes of undoing fate, her last chance to save her children. And then she goes back to being a mother, a simple field mouse with a life that passes quick as you blink. Where is THAT kind of writing?

[@denkillen]

@@ActuatedGear What I appreciate most is that she's driven by selflessness; her only true goal being to save her dying son. No matter what the world manages to throw at her-as reasonably daunting as it may be-she pushes through in spite of the circumstances as well as her own feebleness. Of course, that kind of story requires writers who actually understand the concept of selflessness. 42 years out of vogue, I suppose.

[@ActuatedGear]

@@denkillen My dude. We are two of soul. Love is such a powerful story. Who dares believe in the power of love? I do.

[@user-xsn5ozskwg]

The "you want to protect her" bit is so telling. There's definitely misogyny to unpack with the damsel in distress trope but at least with something like Resident Evil 4 the reason we want to protect Ashley is at least, in part, because she's a hapless civilian who was kidnapped and shouldn't be expected to fight back on her own regardless of gender. When female characters are written into similar roles as their male peers are made to suffer and struggle to a much greater degree, especially by writing teams that feel fine not doing the same to those male peers like at Naughty Dog, it really just paints a picture that their suffering is necessary to care about them at best or they're just inherently worse at worst. And that's just plain-old misogyny.

[@velemamba260]

Amusingly, it's kind of a reflection of the adage that a woman has to be twice as good as a man in the same position to get half as much respect.

[@legomaniac213]

It's kind of the same myopic mindset that has execs dropping in an annoying kid sidekick to a hero that the kids in the audience can supposedly "relate to." They miss the point that the intended audience doesn't want to tag along with the hero, they want to *BE* the hero. The same principle applies here; players don't want to protect the supposedly "badass" female protagonist, they want to see the female protagonist acting like a badass.

[@NoobsDeSroobs]

Is it? Males are stronger and more robust on average and at our best. Further, playing into an emotion like desire to protect is not misogyny or anything. Fathers, husbands, friends and sons. They all have this emotion as it is a natural human drive.

[@v0Xx60]

@@NoobsDeSroobs If your only ability to frame women in a story is some variation on "damsel in distress", you might have a shit opinion of women.

[@user-xsn5ozskwg]

@@NoobsDeSroobs We're not playing as the "average" woman though (ignoring that in the situations these protagonists are put in the average man isn't gonna fair much better than the average woman, if at all). Lara and Ellie are both people who have honed their skills and capabilities to be on par with their male peers; the fact that they both often easily dispatch dozens of men is proof of that. To say nothing of the fact their suffering rarely comes from their lack of ability. Lara especially is prone to having everything that can go wrong doing so in the worst way possible; where Nathan Drake would have his hand slip from a ledge and get up with a grunt after hitting the ground Lara would have the ledge crumble beneath her fingers, scramble to gain traction, fall in a way that batters her against the face of an adjacent surface, and land with a thud and moan before getting up with a whimper and limping forward until the scene says she's had enough. The desire to protect is not inherently misogynistic but this is about framing. You have to ask why it is exclusively female characters who are treated this way in contrast to their male peers. Joel and Ellie are from the same setting, with Ellie likely having even more experience in this harsh world given she grew up in it, yet only one of them is really made to suffer in specific ways that make you feel like "maybe you shouldn't be here." The misogyny comes from the fact that the motive to play these characters should be identical, yet the writers feel the need to make their female characters more vulnerable even though narratively they're not.

[@seanjenkins5505]

Games used to be a big man shooting something with a gun now games are about a girl hitting something with a sword. - dunkey

[@slibstalsongr2056]

I also noticed this trend very blatantly when the Tomb Raider reboots came out. The failed QTE death cutscenes were borderline torture porn. The simplest explanation is that, culturally speaking, people are much more comfortable with seeing a man suffer physical violence than a woman. Therefore a writer will think they're eliciting deeply emotional reactions from the audience by showing, in excruciating detail, a woman suffering that physical violence. That scene where Lara Croft falls down a cliff, slams into the ground, lays there in agony for 10 seconds, groans to her feet, then stumbles away, will make someone say "Oh my god, that was brutal, how is she standing?". Replace her with a man in the exact same sequence and most people would be impatiently holding W trying to take control of the character 1.5 seconds after they hit the ground while muttering "Dude hurry up, enough cutscenes already".

[@nosdregamon]

Back in the day (2013), I assumed the Tomb Raider reboot to be more of a prequel, and I was kinda fine with it - assuming that she'd grow in the badass we know from the earlier games. Sadly this didn't really happen...

[@BJWeNeedUDefendingUsWithZeMG42]

I'm sure the discussion surrounding this topic will be perfectly civil and nuanced and totally NOT devolve into hapless shit-slinging...

[@eggtheman3164]

Most certainly. One can only expect good things from internet discourse.

[@mowinckel10]

It was SPECIFICALLY requested

[@UrbanTheFox]

Chloe and Nadine in Uncharted Lost Legacy are good examples getting messed up but because of their choices as well and not dwelling on receiving the damage.

[@NotFunctional-ever]

People on the internet are incredibly nice. Not once have I been called slander for disagreeing with somebody, never!

[@jet613]

I rarely leave a comment anymore. People love to go absolutely insane with an assumption about the type person you are from an opinion on something. They go foaming at the mouth crazy and spout some wild shit at a whim. Seems worse these days vs 20 years ago. Oh well lol.

[@bendonatier]

Avatar: the Legend of Kora, also very distinctly has this problem. The main character is a strong independent woman who spends the first three seasons, demanding to be taken seriously and then having the ever living snot beaten out of her for the privilege. Sure every time she is the one saying she wants to be involved, but it's never made clear that she fully understands the threats she's going up against, and worse yet by all of the shows logic she should be capable of dealing with those threats without suffering so much. In the fourth season they don't torcher her physically, but instead ask the question "have you ever stopped to wonder if your abusers had a point" which is just the final cherry on top. It beat the tomb raider reboot by a year, releasing in 2012, so maybe something was just in the water. Furiosa: A Mad Max Saga is a pretty good example of how to do helpless and tortured well, as it's mad max, everyone's existence is tortuer, and the sheer willpower of our protagonist is inherently compelling. She's never under the impression that any of this was ever fair, and is just ready to roll with the punches as they come. It isn't until the film's finale that any of her life actually gets to her, and even then we know she can pull through, because we spent the whole film watching her survive.

[@KelleyEngineering]

Just wanted to let you know, that you’re looking for “torture” instead of “torcher.” Phonetics is a sunuvabitch. 😅 You made an interesting observation though.

[@bendonatier]

@@KelleyEngineering You'd hardly believe English is my first language.

[@megamangos7408]

tl;dr Korra fucked around and found out. And if she was a guy, I believe people would be more accepting of the story because a brash dumbass is going to be a brash dumbass. But because she's a girl, there's this hidden expectation that she has to be smarter than that because of most female troupes, and is thus 'bad writing.' And the avatar status is both that she is forced into the role, but she also LOVES being powerful. It's not like a, "I didn't ask for this" moment. If she didn't have ultimate cosmic power and was given the choice from a Monkey's Paw, she would absolutely choose ultimate cosmic power, blind to the ramifications. Long comment: I have to rewatch Korra, because I'd still argue that Korra does have more agency than most, and has more character development because of which. Like you said, she starts off as someone who is brash, strong, and arrogant. Aka, a Dumbass. If Korra was a guy, then we would be saying, "Oh yeah, it's the troupe of the fool-hardy individual who believes they're the absolute Best and who's definitely going to be taken down a peg in the second act. And maybe they'll learn something by the third, Maybe." Which is what happened to her: she boldly and blindly went into danger, was slowly humbled by it. Not as fast as the audience would like, but that's more true to life, and definitely her thick-headed character, as people just don't change quickly. And it's a bit of both in terms of her being forced to be something and wanting something. She is forced to be the avatar whether she likes it or not. But she also wants to be the avatar, because ultimate cosmic power which suits her large ego. And towards the end, IIRC, she is basically gets to decide what being the avatar is. I still think it's a societal thing for her. If Korra was a guy and getting tortured, people would turn around and say, "So. What did we learn? Not to run blindly intro trouble? Maybe think for once in your life? Rather than rely on power that, while extremely strong, can be circumvented? Or are you so thick-headed that it's going to take three whole seasons to get it across, and even then you'll still be you?" I believe people would be far less forgiving of his stupidity, and thus be more forgiving of the storytelling because it makes sense IE: Fuck around and Find out. The Legend of Korra still has problems, but I feel people are too quick to dunk on it. She's a mess, but that's a person. And even with all the knowledge in the world, people can, and will, fuck up.

[@Xenterex]

was looking specifically for Kora comments as I was thinking the same thing: she isn't having character conflicts, reconciliation in 'want' vs 'need' or even learning from her experiences. She gets tortured, and it is excessive to a point of fetishism in every arc. Maybe the creators were banking on the discomfort trying to force audiences to sympathize with her (show vs tell) but the execution of that story-telling seems closer to something someone gets off on instead of advancing the story in a way that actually resonates with the viewer. Toph getting captured, her inability to protect apa from the sand benders, getting her feet burned by zuko... it's not as if she doesn't get hurt, but the application of how much and why works better, albeit she's a 'side character' instead of the protagonist. Aang gets murdered in the avatar state; Kora every season getting tortured for just about the same thing over and over again.

[@theviniso]

You kinda have a point though I feel that's kinda unfair to pick on TLOK considering how well it does female representation overall. There are a lot of female characters, many of them are very important to the story and they all feel like real people with their own wants and needs that don't exist solely to move the plot forward or as someone's romantic interest. It's not really a very high bar, I know, but not many animated shows could clear it in 2012. I'm also gonna play devil's advocate here for a second and say that I find very interesting how we get to see Korra actually struggling to get back in form after the mercury poisoning specifically. It's not something you see often in TV and as someone who has gone through physical rehabilitation I can tell you it can be pretty damn hard. I felt like they portrayed it very well.

[@MBeast2]

There’s an uncomfortable aspect to this that Yahtzee kind of hints at in a few places but avoids confronting directly: the interplay of sex and violence. Or, to put it less delicately - these games torture the female protagonist because the audience is being invited to get off on watching it. “Perverse relish” is *exactly* what the game is showing. Sure, we’re being invited to feel “protective” of Lara Croft… but we’re also being invited to enjoy lingering close ups of her writhing body in a tight, wet tank top as she suffers, and there’s nothing accidental about that. The whole “still a wank doll, but for different emotions” point is true, but in a darker way than the video says. Lara’s still being sexualized, but in a much more sadistic and creepy way. As always, if you’re going “nun uh, it’s not sexualized!” it’s worth asking yourself: would you want to watch this scene, framed this way, with a male character? Or with a female character who wasn’t skinny and busty and wearing something tight? And if not, why not?

[@finthechatboisqwq5602]

Perhaps one of the most important SR videos so far, and I'm astonished as to how few people actually bring this up. I was expecting a travesty in the comments section, but all I see is...let me check my notes to see if I got this right...[positivity], [agreement] and [actual engagement with the discussion without downright harassing each other over difference of opinion]. I must be on the wrong website 🤣 Also not gonna lie, the *other* part of the Rosenberg quote, specifically "When people play Lara, they don't really project themselves into the character", is extremely telling. It communicates an inherent assumption that: a) the player will be male b) a female protagonist can't be identified with Rather a startling ideology to see laid bare like that

[@Ziel23987]

Those Tomb Raider clips are unbelievable. Are those new games really like that? Seriously, someone in the dev team really loves seeing Lara suffer.

[@mrrd4444]

My hot take is that if you want your female characters to feel like people, it's always a good start to hire actual women to write them, if not dudes who see women as full people. It may not work every single time, but it's like a seatbelt - it'll work enough to make a difference.

[@chrislail3824]

It’s women that are working on these games.

[@yuumeko]

Worked for Arcane!

[@ZacharyGay-l8e]

​@@chrislail3824This is factually untrue for the particular games Yahtzee is talking about here lmao.

[@computernoise2209]

My hotter take is it's a good start to hire actually good writers. Just being a woman doesn't mean they're a good writer, even for women characters, as you need to understand how to properly communicate your ideas to your audience, something ovaries don't come built-in with. If a story botches a female character, a the solution isn't "hire more women", it's "go actually talk to some women".

[@digitaljanus]

Rhianna Pratchett did write the first two games in the new Tomb Raider trilogy, but I don't know how early on in the process she was brought on or how much say she had over the game's direction (game writers rarely do, she's said so herself). And while I feel there are already a lot of female characters who inherit or have to live up a father's legacy that we probably don't need to do it for a while, in this case it might be Rhianna working through her own feelings on having a famous and beloved author for a father. I don't think she's ever said anything publicly about that and I'm not saying she couldn't have written Lara without getting that personal about it, but if she was taking inspiration from her own situation I don't want to diminish that either.

[@MrLancar]

This series is quickly becoming my favorite on the channel. No idea if it's just the way Yahtzee yaps about random gaming industry stuff, or if it's just the banging soundtrack.

[@Paradukes]

I've heard people (Yahtzee included) complain about Aloy, but at least she has agency and looks after herself pretty damned well.

[@HUNbullseye]

I think Aloy really have to do the things. Find out who she is, save the world, save the world again, again, again. She is just a bit pissed about it, rightfully so.

[@computernoise2209]

She's in a different category than discussed here. She has agency, but also has a Messianic complex. She isn't open to other's helping her and carries an air of unearned status. She's an arsehole with no charm. In the narrative if she dies the world is doomed, yet she doesn't take precaution or build a community, which is like a teenager inheriting a billion dollars and flash spending it all only on herself. There are clunky ways of theorizing why she's like this, but it doesn't make her canon character any less annoying to interact with.

[@eighteentwilight8547]

@@computernoise2209 I’ll defend Aloy’s character a bit here in that she grew up in a harsh, shitty society with barely any social interaction. Furthermore, a large chunk of the second game’s middle act is all about her realizing she needs to accept help sometimes.

[@HUNbullseye]

​@@eighteentwilight8547 Not to mention SPOILERS Side character: Hey alloy let us help! Aloy: No i won't, it's dangerous! Side character: But we are ready, and you need help! Aloy: Fine... Side character: *dies*

[@ristoravela652]

Aloy I think underlines a different issue with female characters: lack of fun. Sure, as a player you can have fun playing her, but the character doesn't really seem to have much fun doing it. Prime example, you don't have the option to go around casually banging all the hot people (or at least the one hot person of your choice) you meet on your adventures, something male characters very typically do. The female heroes that get to sleep around or at least pick a love interest tend to be in RPG games where playing a female is optional. (And even then the male love interests tend to be very blandly written, but that's a slightly different issue.)

[@craigh4691]

I'm glad Lara Croft herself got a mention as a good counterexample to this nonsense. I would say specifically Lara from Tomb Raider Legend really makes new Lara look bad. She has a goal, obstacles are placed in her way, and her reaction is less a kind of whiny "but I HAVE TO" and more a determined "I will overcome this challenge because I will have what's on the other side." If new Lara was at a fancy party that was interrupted by armed goons, she'd get her ass kicked and then spend the entire level sneaking around. Legend Lara kicks off her heels, tears a slit in her dress, and jumps a motorcycle to a nearby building. Lara used to be cool.

[@bradleyhiggs3824]

the whole narrative throughout Last of us 1&2 is about her being denied agency, from the moment we see her til the moment she spares abby in 2, she was rioting AGAINST that lack of agency, but as such she's still a reaction to a force preventing her from experiencing free will. She was pissed about that, loudly. Sparing Abby was literally the cycle breaking, its beautiful.

[@АлексейЛазарев-д6з]

I think this just shows how generally unimaginative the writers are when they are writing male protagonists.

[@MrMycelium]

Wasn't there a whole argument in the 2010s about not making female protagonists "Just a dude in a women's avatar" kind of thing? People were upset that female protagonists that were not actually realistic deceptions of femininity in a given situation, and were criticized because they all acted too masculine? I thought this was intended to be the response to that. I remember hating it at that time too. Taking characters that were otherwise cool and calm in the face of danger and turning them into sniveling deceptions of "Realism".

[@BBP-OMO]

If it was a response to that then it entirely missed the point. I believe the negative reception of "Just a dude in a women's avatar" came from the fact sociatal pressures and circumstances women find themselves in are different than men. While men and women can both do action, that isn't as inherently empowering towards women whos struggles generally come more from objectification, inequality and inequity and NOT that it's unrealistic for a woman to try and do what a man can do without suffering for it. It was mainly a wanting for meaningful sociotal commentary on the struggles women deal with.

[@Revacholiere]

@@BBP-OMO > It was mainly a wanting for meaningful sociotal commentary on the struggles women deal with. The average AAA action game doesn't have meaningful societal commentary on anything

[@BBP-OMO]

@@Revacholiere then maybe they shouldn't have tried

[@MrMycelium]

@@Revacholiere This made me laugh. But that's true when you think about what kinds of people typically are interested in making games. Most game devs I've talked to couldn't care less who the president is, let alone about gendered politics. They just want to make something fun and engaging.

[@keeparguing611]

"female characters should have to earn the power fantasy, like their male counter parts" "never give them a power fantasy, got it!"

[@Jolis_Parsec]

Figures that an Asmongold sycophant would come away from this video with such a reductive message. 😂

[@NexusSomnia]

I think the main error Yahtzee makes near the end is thinking misogyny and ignorance are mutually exclusive. In reality, it's most likely ignorance *driven by* misogyny, even if unconscious misogyny.

[@morgaknightgames]

Woman gamer here, and I distinctly remember being pissed off at Lara during my playthrough of the reboot (only played the first one) the WHOLE game. I was frequently yelling at the screen over her "choices" most of the game. I absolutely remember og Lara much more fondly.

[@jensinamart5153]

Alloy from the Horizon series is, arguably, an exception to this rule. Her characters direction can be a little all over the place at time but overall she's competent, usually in charge of her situation and watching her get beaten up doesn't feel like torture porn. She does have a bad case of the "Havetos" but that issue isn't exclusive to female protags.

[@strain42]

It's like that one arc in Scrubs where Turk gets a new boss who is a woman who is a capable and skilled surgeon, but naturally with surgery being a boys club, she's used to all the guys drooling over her and making inappropriate comments. So much so that she actually finds Turk's attitude of "Don't worry, I've got your back" to be far more insulting because of the implications that she can't handle it herself.

[@PVS3]

Yeah, that was a frustrating episode. Turk's genuine respect and loyalty was treated as patronizing.

[@strain42]

It's one thing to have genuine respect and loyalty, but he didn't. Turk not only (incorrectly) assumed that she needed someone to defend her from the other surgeons, but believed that by being that someone that he was better than the other surgeons and deserved special treatment from her. "I got your back, so why don't you cut me a little slack?" Obviously I don't think that Turk was being intentionally malicious or sexist, but basically brings up a lot of the same points as Yahtzee did here. Whether you view a female character as nothing but eye candy, or as Dr. Miller said "a little girl who needs protecting" it's arguably just different flavors of sexism because it focuses more on the idea of what you can do for the character over what the character can do for themselves.

[@Neon002121]

At the end of the day if the most interesting thing about a character is the number of X chromosomes they have, they’re a failed character. I actually felt worse when I let original Lara Croft died under my watch because she was cool and capable and if I killed her by flubbing an easy jump, I was clearly playing the game wrong.

[@Thamian]

I haven't played Forbidden West yet, but Aloy (in Horizon Zero Dawn atleast) I think may be another example of a female protagonist who avoids this problem - her driving motivations are 1) find out where she came from/who her mother is (the latter being contextualised via the Nora's matriarchial emphases), and then, once she has some answers, 2) the need to survive. Equally, those driving motivations get kinda blurry with the Frozen Wilds DLC added in, so perhaps not. Also, for that matter, how clearly the game stresses Helis' physical superiority over her, even if she has by that point taken down thunderclaws without a scratch. Hmm... So even that is I guess a bit of a mixed bag.

[@planetgodzilla473]

I think that alloy from the horizon series is a pretty good example of what we need more of, when it comes to female protagonists. While those games aren't perfect, alloy is a interesting character in her own right and is pretty tough because of her upbringing, and her constantly pushing people away because she feels she has to save the world made for a interesting arc.

[@Gretyl]

The Horizon games put Aloy’s agency frontmost while also giving her depth in an original AAA narrative.

[@ApetureTestSubject]

Seriously, writing a strong female character isn't all that hard. There's two steps. You ready? 1. Write a strong character with a good motivation and an arc. 2. Make them female. And then, optional point 3. Perhaps tie some of her troubles into being female, if that's the sort of story you're telling. If not, don't. Congratulations, you've written a strong female character. They can go and join Samus and Madeline from Celest in the Strong Female Character clubhouse.

[@meirl5700]

My favourite sequel to Mickey Mouse Clubhouse. (Insert witty rhyme that rewrites the opening to the show here)

[@olivercharles2930]

Idk about madeline lmao She isn't really supposed to be the Strong Female Character type. Not in the same way as Samus anyways.

[@lilowhitney8614]

​@@olivercharles2930 You're misunderstanding the concept of a strong female character the same way all those AAA writers do. A strong female character isn't a character who can kick ass and has boobs. It's a character that has strong writing, goals and flaws and complexities, while also being female. Madeline 100% fits that.

[@legomaniac213]

Commander Shepard from Mass Effect is another good example. FemShep gets to be as much of a badass and MaleShep, but MaleShep also has to deal with the same amount of physical and emotional trauma as FemShep.

[@Pierceson-up8fs]

I mean, I think Ellie shows this is very much not the case. Strong character with good motivation. I don’t care what Yahtzee says, revenge for the death of your father figure is a very standard motivation that no one would question if she were male. And she has an arc. It’s not perfect (I think giving the player the choice to kill Abby would have made it infinitely stronger), but the extreme backlash to what amounts to an extremely standard arc for a male character shows that the standards for female characters are not as simple as you make it seem

[@DoctorTheo]

Oh boy the comments and twitter are gonna be fun

[@GayBearBro2]

To be fair, he did say that it'd be controversial during the Windbreaker stream.

[@maskofice9432]

I was literally thinking of Celeste as you're talking about this, and lo and behold you bring it up. It really is a much better example since the resolution is Madeline actually confronting the part of herself that makes her think she has to climb up this mountain. There's a reason actually climbing it in chapter 7 is basically a victory lap

[@jeiaz]

Exceptions to the trend: Jessie Faden - Control My character during my first playthrough - Fallout New Vegas That's it from my library. (doesn't count cause indie but damn that girl got a purpose and sure is not on the receiving end of violence) Also Buddy - Lisa 2 Also, counter argument: whatshis name mal character - Lisa

[@jorgemontero6384]

We have a few examples of this before Tomb Raider:See basically everything David Cage has ever made. Basically every game he made includes a woman being in a situation that is too dire to be described in this comment's section

[@Catalyst375]

Giving this video some thought, it might not just be applicable to video games, but storytelling as a whole, with female protagonists in other media that also fit the "someone the player/viewer/reader wants to protect" mold. Heck, extend it further to how such female characters are also often in the "support"/"medic" role in the protagonist group.

[@R3GARnator]

What he's complaining about has been a much bigger problem in Hollywood, and the games pretty much caught it from trying to be "cinematic". Emily Blunt has spoken out about the problem.

[@skyfox4072]

That last part probably has to do with believably considering that until recently women were not allowed to serve in visible combat roles(think military and to a lesser extent policing) until relatively recently so the idea of a "woman fighter" is a... novel(for lack of a better word) one. On top of that there is the elephant in the room of women(especially hollywood actresses) being smaller and more slender than their male counter parts. So it would be unbelievable for them to be able to shrug off the same level of punishment that their male counterparts can. And being the smallest and physically weakest person in a dangerous scenario will make people want to protect you.

[@Catalyst375]

​@@R3GARnator If you mean the "strong female lead" label, then it is an issue that goes beyond both games and Hollywood. I've even seen more than a few comments talking about how the contents of the video apply to Korra from Avatar: The Legend of Korra, and I have to agree. As much as I still liked the series, it is rather undeniable that Korra was forced through several wringers, the worst being poisoned with mercury metal while chained to slowly, agonizingly kill her while in the Avatar state, and despite being saved was left wheelchair-bound for a long time and traumatized, and was left dealing with that for most of Season 4.

[@Catalyst375]

@@skyfox4072 Ah yes, "believability". The thing that gets suspended whenever men punch boulders inside active volcanoes while on their way to fight genetically modified horrors with their bare hands, because of how "cool" it looks. Women fighters also aren't a "novel idea", since there are many historical women who were warriors and fighters. Many Hollywood actresses might also be a certain body type, but that doesn't and should preclude them from portraying physically capable characters in their own right. Are you just trying to explain why you believe the criticism the video is fielding isn't an issue?

[@rapter229]

@skyfox4072 Tom Cruise being short never stopped him from being an action hero. Turns out the magic of cinema can make people look different (taller etc.).

[@Blue2x2x]

I have a mini theory that the reason why "progressive" female characters getting more punches than entire saw movie, is because the writers like to equate physical pain that the character getting with a societal strife that the writer may or may not encounter. A male co-worker "mansplain" how Microsoft word works, that's a drowsing in a rushing river. The character fell over a cliff, hitting beaches and rocks below. That's someone taking credit for her work because "she's a women". Found out husband cheating, character gets stabbed/shot and leave for death. After all that, the character completes her quest. The writer feels like her "hardships" is over, and she's "a lot stronger then before" like how the character survive all the physical "hardships" that she gotten. Kinda that Kelly Clarkson's Stronger song.

[@grunner7557]

Also noticed that these kinds of protagonists are rarely outwardly confident. And no, being outwardly angry or being snarky isn't confidence. The phrase "Confidence is sexy" immediately comes to mind. Being confident is considered sexy therefore it isn't acceptable for AAA female protagonists to be so. Same thing with being charismatic, which is also considered sexy and therefore is considered bad by the AAA studios. Can't have anything that the ""gooners"" over on Twitter might find attractive otherwise it's objectification. The AAA side of the industry has gotten so anti-sexy with female characters that any traits associated with sexiness get caught on the crossfire, and now we're in a period of overcorrecting where the only trait that's acceptable is "Average" both in terms of appearance and personality.

[@goober3889]

I genuinely thought Yahtzee didn’t like Celeste and its story. Back on ZP he mentioned it as “Game Award Bait” or something, but now he’s bringing it up as a positive example.

[@BillyONeal]

He's bringing up the *writing* as a positive example. I'm not sure he's extending that to the whole game

[@goober3889]

@@BillyONeal he labeled it as game award bait on ZP because it’s a story about depression, and he barely mentioned the gameplay.

[@docbaker3333]

In other words. The triple AAA industry needs more Female Writers.

[@MartinRudat]

Not necessarily; I expect you'd get most of the way there by having Larry Croft (Lara's identical male twin, with the same taste in eye candy) act as Lara's stunt double until development is mostly done and only then swap in Lara for her closeup. It won't be perfect, but I expect it will be a lot closer than what we're currently getting.

[@docbaker3333]

@@MartinRudat Haha very funny But I mean it would work. You wanna know why a lot of TV shows are afro centric lately? Their written by Black People, so their going to write about the people they know best that being other black people. And that same logic could apply here.

[@cookieface80]

@@stevethepocket She only wrote the 2013 one, and she was one of three writers (albeit the lead one).

[@kristoffer8609]

No, god please. Haven't we suffered enough.

[@Jolis_Parsec]

@@kristoffer8609Cry moar. 😏

[@MrSomethingred]

It is very weird the idea of "protecting" the character you are also meant to be identifying with.

[@nsnprotea2127]

This made me think of an interesting thing about AAA games. They kinda seem to gravitate towards making their protagonists suffer. Which somewhat makes sense, because conflict is necessary for plot. But AAA games seem to have a specific fascination with that, much more than indie. Also, AAA protagonists often melt into a sad, violent and often sarcastic (for humor) person archetype. I think the main causes behind this are desire to seem mature and more importantly, lack of mechanical variance. Since they want to tell stories where the protagonist murders a bunch of people, they automatically give some tragic justification why that is fine and why they are good at it. They also need to refresh that reason from time to time, so we don't forget. Either by the protagonist getting hurt, or a bit rarer, flashbacks. Bonus if violence makes them sad for double suffering. It’s not necessarily bad, but that might be part of the reason AAA games feel samey. In the end, I don’t know. Haven’t played AAA in some time and I have done 0 research for this comment, so maybe I am just spouting nonsense out of my ass.

[@rcbinchicken]

nah I think you've kinda hit on an interesting note no-one's really mentioned. a sorta convergent evolution of narratives, when the end goal is always "justify why ALL of this is somehow about (lethal) violence", would make sense.

[@Donkexote]

Lara Croft having more agency in her more 'sexist' incarnation is exactly what many have complained about for years in regards to reboot Lara. But this always gets brushed aside for the obvious reason. It's almost like the answer isn't to just 'desexualize' her.

[@ravenfrancis1476]

I mean, yeah, part of the solution is to stop sexually objectifying her. The problem isn't that she's been de-sexied it's that the alternative she's been given is just a different form of objectification.

[@lunarazure9969]

While there's definitely gender politics stuff at play, I feel like that whole "lets tie character depth to how much we can physically and mentally torture them" has become a more common storytelling trope in general these days. The more recent Resident Evils immediately come to mind. While its partly due to them trying to lean more into the slasher/horror vibe, do we really need to see Ethan get injured as much as humanly possible? Someone made a list on reddit counting all the different injuries he's had throughout 7 and 8 and its pretty messed up. At least Lara Croft wasn't hung from the ceiling by hooks through her hands that she then has to rip out in order to escape. Even outside the gaming sphere, its becoming far more common in stories for the hero to end up physically or mentally traumatized. Not for any specific character growth moments, but just so they feel more heroic at the end despite having spent the entire story getting stomped into the dirt at every possible moment cuz real life just ain't fair. Modern superhero stuff in particular loves to torture the hero because its the easiest way writers can think of to make someone with superpowers feel more relatable and human. Sure he can fly and walk through walls, but he's a person just like us! He also gets PTSD after watching his family brutally tortured and killed! He also feels pain when he gets his arms ripped off in a fight with the big bad! Plus he lost his job! And his long term relationship fell apart! And he's been labelled as a murderer and is on the run! But after all that he still pulled himself out of that rut and saved the day!

[@R3GARnator]

Some of my favorite books feature protagonists recovering from PTSD they have stemming from before the story. Punisher show is a good example.

[@wes_crawford]

2:45 This is inaccurate. I can think of 2 really big instances where Joel gets unexpectedly brutalized/trapped in the first game (that being where he’s hung upside down by Bill’s trap and when he’s thrown off a balcony and gets impaled). And while Part 2 might have more frequent instances of this, that’s the point. Obv the first game is about the father-daughter bond and the second is about the revenge of losing that bond, so the second is going to be darker and more violent. And these bad things that keep happening to Ellie over in Seattle don’t just happen to make the game darker. These brutal events illustrate that Ellie’s descent into darkness isn’t necessarily due to the violence and the killing she does in Seattle, but is due to her agency to stay inside the city in her search for Abby. (Edited to separate each section into its own paragraph)

[@hilgigas09]

This video more or less explains why I and many other, relatively, sane people don't like "Strong" Female characters. I just wasn't able to put my finger on it before. I enjoyed the old DC animated shows, Wonder Woman, Raven, Starfire, and Hawk Girls were some of my favorite characters. I also grew up watching Avatar the Last Airbender. I have rewatched ATLA multiple times, even have the complete boxset, but I have no desire to rewatch Korra. I came to see a hero's story not watch them suffer the cruelest fates.

[@Oboro86]

Korra goes through SO MUCH physical pain, it's difficult to imagine that there wasn't someone behind the scenes not so secretly getting off on it.

[@hilgigas09]

@@lokimiguel2452 I don’t recall saying I hate women. A strong female character is a strong character regardless of gender but they are decidedly female. A “strong” female character rejects her feminine traits as if it is deviant. Compare Kim Possible with most modern female characters. Yes, I hate poorly written male characters. I ignore most modern anime because they’re boring especially the isekai power fantasies. Compare Kazuma Sato with Touya Mochizuki.

[@hilgigas09]

@@lokimiguel2452 Did you watch Masters of the Universe? I did. Reincarnated with my Smartphone? I dropped it after one episode. Demon Lord Retry? Could not even make it through one episode. Batman V Superman? I watched it with my dad who didn’t grow up with comics. We both agreed it was trash and not even good trash like a campy B-movie. What does Teela look like? She’s built like a linebacker and has that same generic side shave haircut. Honestly I didn’t even care until the show runner started running his mouth. Is the protagonist from either of those Anime interesting? Is the show interesting? Can you say that BVS is a good movie or an appropriate interpretation of either character? Because I would say not.

[@hilgigas09]

@@lokimiguel2452 Are you saying Teela isn't female? Because the question wasn't what female character I disliked. It was what "strong female character had their feminine traits removed/ rejected their feminine traits. And no, I don't read American comics. I never said I did I said I grew up watching DC tv shows, and that they had plenty of well written female characters.

[@hilgigas09]

@@lokimiguel2452 Raven, Starfire, Wonder Woman, Kim Possible, Juniper Lee, Shiera, Azula, Mai, Ty Lee, Katara, Samus, Peach, Daisy, Bulma, Chichi, Misty, Lois Lane. All great characters yet still feminine. The first eleven can go blow for blow with their male counterparts still valid. The latter six are not defined by their ability for violence yet are still valid. Teela shaved her hair and is built like He-man in the show focused on her. Yet the last two adaptations she remained rather feminine while still keeping up with He-man. Abby (TLOU 2) is the same size as Joel and was originally intended to be Trans in early development. As if she has to put on masculine traits to be taken seriously. Now it's your turn? Who is your favorite Action Girl? and What is her main defining trait outside of combat ability?

[@reizak8966]

Congrats, Yahtzee. Your videos are the only ones that my cat will watch.

[@adfury]

Actually, now that i think about it, i think the 1st vs 3rd person thing may be part of it. Im more inclined to be protective of a 3rd person character. Its not as easly a self insert as a 1st person mostly silenf protagonist. Not counting side scrollers and im not quite sure why.

[@BurningTNT]

The “sexy” female protagonist like bayonetta tend to also be characters or games leaning heavily into a sense of fun that extreme suffering would undercut. Also I think it’d feel so obviously fetishistic even the writers would notice Personally I like morally complex characters and would love to instead see more protagonists that insist they’re going to do something for selfish reasons over ones that “have to”. But I’ll take aggressively Competent and mundanely good over beating them up constantly

[@PhysicsGamer]

Lara's motivation in the original games was that she was an adrenaline junkie disowned by her parents who really just wanted to go steal stuff because she found it fun. She was a jerk to pretty much everyone around her, mostly because everyone around her would at some point tell her that what she was doing was a terrible idea.

[@GeneralNickles]

If casually walking past the living room tv while my parents are binge watching there 4th series this week for the past 5 years has taught me anything, its that video games are not the only media suffering from this curse. I swear, no matter what show they're watching, EVERY DAMN TIME I walk through the living room to get to the kitchen, there's a woman on screen in some kind of excruciating pain. Whether it's a horro movie, or a supposed sitcom, modern media LOVES making female characters suffer. It seems to be all they know to do with women these days. It's truly baffling.