The Real Innovation Of 16mm Film

[@mikefochtman7164]

I think it was James Burke's 'Connections' show where I first heard of billiard balls being made from cellulose. He made a point that it was basically 'gun cotton' and sometimes had pretty spectacular results. Also have seen pictures of old old reels where the cellulose just breaks down slowly over the years and you have a reel of 'goo' instead of film.

[@AcmeRacing]

That goo is even more volatile. Many early films are lost to us because the film stock deteriorated or burned.

[@iloveaudiostuff]

I miss “Connections” - I watched it often at the campus library on VHS

[@five-toedslothbear4051]

Great vid, Fran! I once projected 2nd run 16mm films at a university when I was a student, for student entertainment, and the projection booth had a rope with fusible links over the projector positions. The ropes held up metal shutters over the openings into the auditorium. The whole thing was concrete. We were projecting safety film with modified classroom projectors, so the danger was low, but the place was built in the 1930s and undoubtedly had nitrate film and open arcs in mind.

[@clark9992]

Then there was the "Dawson Film Find". In 1978, 533 reels of nitrate film was discovered in Dawson City Yukon. The Dawson Amateur Athletic Association began showing films starting in 1903. Dawson City was at the end of the line for the tour of the films, and the distributor didn't need them back, so they got stored in the local bank (!!). Later, there arose a problem with the ice rink made on top of a swimming pool. The bank was getting crowded by these films, so they killed 2 birds with 1 stone by using some of the reels as fill under the rink. The rest of the reels were sent to a different DAAA location, which was burnt down in 1951 when the film caught fire. The reels under the rink, many of which are the only surviving copies, were preserved, to varying degrees, by the permafrost. Due to the dangerous nature, but importance of the material, it was moved by military transport to the Canadian Archives and U.S. Library of Congress.

[@ChrisB...]

How many 16mm prints were tossed in school dumpsters in the 90's? My guess, most if not all, a real shame. I collected a few 16mm and 8mm projectors and cameras around that time and very rarely came across 16mm reels, I found more 8mm cartoons from the 50's and 60's than anything else.

[@pdtech4524]

I once salvaged a lot of historical 8mm and 16mm film reels from a cellar in our factory that was being cleared out. My instruction was to junk everything into a skip, I found drawers full of B/W photos of the factory as it looked in the 1950s and 1960s as well as the cine film reels plus photos of staff that worked there, detailing social events and trips out etc I donated it all to a local industrial museum who were very grateful and fascinated by them. Our current management couldn't careless about the footage or content.

[@TucsonAnalogWorkshop]

I was in SF in about 1994, when SF Unified School District got rid of their 16mm library. I went to the warehouse and they literally gave me a shopping cart to take whatever I wanted. I still have a few of those prints

[@kerryjlynch1]

I really appreciate that you are keeping this technology in discussion. In the 70's I ran a projector in my university to show 16mm features as well as showing films for our Engineering Club, where "Closed Mondays" was a huge hit. I eventually acted in a friend's 16mm film for her senior project. It was a cut above our parents' 8mm, and much cheaper than the totally unaffordable 35mm equipment. Different media are important.

[@RadioJonophone]

I first used 16mm film in 1967 when working for the Rank Organisation. I was seconded to the nearby ABC (Associated British Corporation) studios when they converted to 35mm production for certain TV series destined for America and other markets. I bought my own 16mm equipment to make amateur movies with my friends. I still have that equipment, but have long since converted to digital for my "masterpieces". Another revolution to the 16mm stock was that it was available in reversal, so you didn't need to make a "projection copy" from a negative. BBC TV News used standard negative stock then reversed it in Telecine during transmission. I think that was to save costs and speed of processing. I remember old hands telling me scary stories about old nitro stock. Whilst I was at Elstree, MGM were in the process of re-mastering old films onto acetate stock for archives. One of the titles, although I never saw it until years later, was Fritz Lang's Metrpolis.

[@carlveilleux5744]

In the 60s my parents had an 8mm camera, where once the first half of the film was exposed you didn't need to take the film roll out and flip it around to expose the 2nd half. The whole film case actually pivoted around the lens assembly, so when the camera stopped, you simply flipped the whole half of the camera 180 degrees, it would click back in place, and start shooting again. Worked OK but you had to remember if the film had beed flipped or not, otherwise is was easy to flip it again and double expose over the first half, which unfortunately happened a few times! I still have this camera and it looks like it's still working fine.

[@ezterry]

Very fascinating. Thanks for sharing.

[@TucsonAnalogWorkshop]

They probably also failed to mention that 16mm film was not only introduced as Safety, but the stock itself was Reversal (B/W in 1933, followed by Kodachrome in 1936)--meaning you could project the original and eliminate the whole process of making a print in order to view it

[@dougbrowning82]

In the 1940s, Ektachrome was introduced. It was faster and simpler than Kodachrome. It could be processed by armatures and independent labs, while exposed Kodachrome had to be mailed to Kodak for processing. You could actually buy Kodachrome with prepaid processing (a postage paid mailer was even included in the package). Kodachrome was discontinued in 2009 (the last roll processed in 2010), while Ektachrome was discontinued in 2013 and reintroduced in 2018.

[@TucsonAnalogWorkshop]

@@dougbrowning82 Actually I got the years wrong, B/W Reversal was introduced in 1923, concurrent with 16mm. Kodachrome didn't come until 1935. 8mm in 1936. Ektachrome was initially promoted as a home format for still photography (because you could process it yourself). Ektachrome motion picture film would not be in wide use until the late 50s

[@bagnome]

@@TucsonAnalogWorkshop I love Ektachrome. Probably my favorite film stock. I recently went on a trip in May and bought myself 4 100' rolls of 16mm film, all reversal, two of them Ektachrome. I still have one to shoot, but the others have been developed and I've put them through the projector a few times. Film as a medium, especially something that can be projected, is a magical thing.

[@nowster]

You didn't mention Vinegar Syndrome which affects cellulose acetate films after about 40-50 years. Modern film stock (where it's still used) is polyester.

[@FranLab]

How films decay over time is another topic that I have discussed at length in my Film Archive section.

[@seanbatiz6620]

@@FranLab Yes, i watched/listened to that topic of your Film Archive vids, very intently, as I’ve got quite a few 35mm “slidefilm” spools w/their adjoining Bakelite &/or, Vinyl audio records from @ 1952 thru 1955; all from Buick, mostly produced thru The JamHandy Corp… I’ve really REALLY gotta get these all digitized very soon, as quite a few of them have already begun gassing off that absolutely horrid vinegar oder, as soon as you open its tin can. Most any other vintage or antique film stock i have, is also acetate; 16 & 8. Very few are cellulose, even less are Nitrate. I do also have a descent stash of Daguerreotype & Tintype as well as Plate”film”.. glass plate, w/antique plate cameras up to 5x7. I keep my small Nitrate stash in a separate vintage fire “proof” (resistant) safe, in cool, dark part of my garage, just in case. If it for whatever reason DOES self-ignite, that fire would at least stay confined within that safe

[@gregmiller9957]

Only projection prints are polyester at this point and there isn't a whole lot of that going on anymore. Anything you're loading into a camera is triacetate. Diacetate doesn't get vinegar syndrome and most triacetate over 40 or 50 years old doesn't have vinegar syndrome. The key to this not happening is proper storage. Nitrate also doesn't last if improperly stored...basically turns to mush before it become a hockey puck. I didn't really feel like this video was about film deterioration and was well presented and educational.

[@donjankura2411]

My father was given an 8mm camera in 1947. He used it until super 8 cameras were introduced. I used the camera for a bit. I was always interested in the fact that I was using 16mm film. The film reel had to be reversed to complete the 3 1/2 minute reel. Many of those films have an orange sun flare on the print half way through when projected.

[@jsnowdendavies]

I used to love that sun flare. Sometimes big perforations in the film too, like a dot matrix font.

[@scottthomas3792]

Maybe ten years ago, I worked with a guy who was taking a theater/film course in college, and they still used 16mm film. I'm not sure if this is the case or not. Two jobs ago, I worked at a small college that had an impressive film library. They probably still have it The heavy framed " nerd" glasses are the best. Comfortable and durable.

[@TokyoScarab]

I'm not sure if it is still done anymore, but I have heard stories from people I know who took film classes or went to film school in the last decade and also talked about how they had to shoot, develop, and edit on film as part of the course. Honestly really cool stuff! I feel if you can't understand into what went into how something was done, you'll never truly understand how it works or should be done today.

[@Greg-om2hb]

Thank you for explaining the difference between 8mm and Super 8 film. We used to watch 16mm films in elementary and high school. My dad had a Super 8 camera. I’ve watched your videos for years and I know you are in Philadelphia, but I just now realized that you have the same accent as Terry Gross.

[@Narrowgaugefilms]

16mm is heavy, bulky, expensive and completely impractical in these enlightened digital times! -and I love it dearly! There's something very satisfying about threading up a 50 year old projector and watching a film the way the filmmakers imagined it being presented. I also have video projection and that has its own charms, but sometimes you want to "see" a movie, sometimes you want to "show" a movie! (There is a difference!)

[@David-hm9ic]

Glad you made this video. Not only is nitrocellulose film related to smokeless gunpowder; it's also chemically very similar to the nitrate dope used in the first layers of applying fabric to fabric covered aircraft. Once after I finished recovering an airplane I took the jar I had been using to hold nitrate dope and peeled the dried dope off of the mouth of the jar. At a safe distance from the hangar, I lit the dried dope. OMG!!! It burned more vigorously than gasoline. Smokeless gunpowder may hold up better than you think. I have shot WWII surplus M-1 Garand ammunition recently and it still performs to spec.

[@sjeunson1]

When I was a projectionist in the 1980s and 90s I frequently ran across old projectors that had a safety feature that was invented during the early years of nitrate. If the projector stopped or film got stuck a thick metal shutter would drop in the gate area. This helped to prevent the nitrate film from bursting into flames from the high heat carbon arcs.

[@fxm5715]

Great history lesson, Fran. Keep 'em coming!

[@neffk]

Wasn't it the proximity to a very bright light (which was not) that caused the fire? There may have been chemical instability but I think the projector itself was the greatest danger. I can imagine that any problem that caused the film to loiter in front of the lamp would have caused a fire. Also, back in the early days of film, it seems that there were many more movies and they were much more popular. We don't often go out to a theater now but back then, it was regular entertainment. But the need for cheap film stock may be a little understated because of our current context of cheap reusable digital media.

[@paulkinzer7661]

Oh, Boy! Photographic history! This is something I'm interested in, and even somewhat informed about. But the details you gave here? It's like you filled in the text where I only had the chapter headings. I knew about explosive film, but had no idea that there were fireproof projection booths, or that 16mm film introduced safety film. So amazing. I just keep thinking, 'What were they thinking?!' But, of course, it was the cheapest option, and what they had available. Look at the crap we're spewing into the environment, and ultimately into ourselves.

[@seanrh4294]

I think you would enjoy the Korg Volca Nubass ..... it has a small tube in it with a vacuum tube oscillator... lots of fun but can't be connected easily to the PC.

[@doublebass]

I have the original volca bass and love it. When hooked up to my subwoofer I can get insane window rattling lows.

[@eastkingstonnh]

Estar based was a major improvement, the durability made my life as a film library technician so much the better. BTW, what's your favorite Amiga computer?

[@blottobrain]

I just discovered your channel. Enjoying your videos!

[@JoePlett]

I thought I knew a fair bit about film & its history, but this opened my eyes to SO much that I did not know. Thanks Fran - as always. 🙂

[@rb032682]

In the 1960s, I used to love lighting Fender guitar picks on fire, (when I could afford an extra pick). The nitro-cellulose burned nicely.

[@terryolsson4145]

Knowledge is power. Thanks Fran.

[@ds-il7ik]

I'm continuously impressed by your breadth of knowledge.

[@salliemorrill2671]

That was fascinating, Fran! Thank you for covering this topic. I seem to have a vague memory of a news atory covering a film vault fire decades ago. My father had informed me of the instability of the chemicals. Sadly enough, it was reported that most of the lost films were never transferred. Perhaps you have a more accurate recollection of this occurance in the 80s in California? Thanks again.

[@MrJoeybabe25]

I'm really enjoying your channel, Fran! I just subbed, I think a week ago or so, and your topics are very interesting. Thanks!😊😊

[@janderogee]

Interesting video, thanks for putting this up. I love your passion for the technology and the enthusiasm you tell about it with. Never was aware about the alternative usages of nitro cellulose. A big thumbs up.

[@jeffreyhunt1727]

So perhaps you could say that 16mm film really exploded onto the scene because it wasn't explosive

[@seaninness334]

Former Camera assistant here. I also wonder, aside from it's disturbing combustibility, if nitrocellulose was any better or worse (assuming it didn't ignite) at being stable with regards to color shifts over time, emulsion flaking, breakdown of the non-emulsion side over time.

[@FranLab]

Much worse on all fronts. But Nitro stocks used for color were almost entirely dye sublimation (Technicolor) or other dye prints rather than the chemical reversal chroma processes which were common in safety films.

[@seaninness334]

@@FranLab I would assume it was better on all fronts but figured I would ask. Sometimes you hear about some sort of odd saving grace of an older format. Thanks so much for replying. I hope you are enjoying the weekend. Cheers Fran.

[@gdavisloopfta380]

Fran, I've never understood why "Hollywood" continued to use nitrate film years after safety film was used for 16mm film. Even if it was a bit cheaper, how could that savings possibly exceed the cost of movie vaults and theaters burning down?

[@FranLab]

Projection rooms of those days were designed to withstand nitrate fires, and projectionists expected a reel to catch from time to time. Why does any industry stay with the old technology even when better options are available? It is a very common tale.

[@mikezambrano2555]

i cant quite recall but wasnt the zapruder film a 16mm double sided film?

[@RAEckart22]

No, 8mm Kodachrome

[@Ratimus_]

Great video, but missed opportunity: The REEL Innovation...

[@dave23024]

I saw The Siege (1998) in theaters and the film burned halfway through the movie. That got my heart pumping...

[@D0li0]

Excellent context!

[@Michael.Chapman]

04:20 "Interesting thing about nitrocellulose film stock is once it catches fire it cannot be extinguished". Sounds like a historical warning for the similar behavior of current day electric vehicles fitted with enormous lithium batteries.

[@kinggrimloc]

Wow! I live in Luzerne County close to Kingston. I hope they know they're missing a movie :)

[@mitrickjohns2834]

There is a technique in molecular biology called the Southern blot which uses nitrocellulose membranes. It binds very nicely to DNA.

[@jrb_sland]

In the early 1970s I worked at a Vancouver movie film lab. One day some Australian men showed up with a single 1000 foot [~11 minute] reel of 35 mm film that they wanted to see in our screening room. Their concern was that the film was on cellulose nitrate base; would we be willing to project it for them? I was a cocky young man ~ 24 at the time, said yes, quickly located a CO2 fire extinguisher to have at the ready, & on with the show! It was an industrial documentary about a mining venture from the early 1950s. Forgettable. Nothing bad happened, but I did take the opportunity to play with the film base, which is noticeably stronger & springier than cellulose acetate. Cellulose acetate is weak & can be torn in the hands. Cellulose nitrate is hard to tear unless you use your teeth, while mylar film base needs scissors or a sharp box-cutter knife, and you risk damaging the projector if the film jams up. Mylar is an Eastman Kodak trademark, btw. But mylar has all the properties you want for archival purposes; it is strong, ~non-flammable, & mechanically/chemically super-stable. The SMPTE [Society of Motion Picture & Television Engineers] published a paper in their Journal in the 1980s indicating that B&W colour-separation movie images on mylar base could be expected to survive over ~400 years if stored at reasonable temperatures & humidities. Dye images aren't sufficiently chemically stable for long-duration archival purposes, unfortunately, although the dyes in classical Technicolor dye-transfer prints are much better than the dyes in conventional photographic prints. How long will data on your thumb drive or SSD or hard disk drive or CD or DVD survive? I recently discovered that some files I had archived to R/W CD fifteen years ago were now only ~ 85% readable. Magnetic recordings are a little better - your cassette or 8-track audio tapes or VHS video tapes will still play after ~ 30 years, but will your player still run? Archivists deal with these issues daily. Remember that we have written material on papyrus & vellum that is well over 2500 years old & still readable. Well-made modern acid-free paper is likely good for many centuries. Today's newsprint will brown-out in only a few years. I'm an elderly [75] Canadian man who continues to use paper - it stores nicely in file folders in filing cabinets & can be read without machine assistance. Digital bit-rot is still an ongoing problem...

[@RAEckart22]

12:10 Check out the bottom of the library card. (Paraphrasing) Be kind. Do NOT rewind.

[@elmersbalm5219]

May i suggest you add chapters to videos? Some times you add too much on a specific detail that might lose views. Details, which anybody interested in the subject would want to know.

[@VEC7ORlt]

Oh hey its Max from Pi in that paper.

[@lohikarhu734]

you know a lotta shit!! Good shit! BTW, after a long time subscribed, I finally watched *'that'* video...nice of you to explain, but, I guess that most of us care about content of your channel, and your obvious intellect and curiosity. Just an aside about film... I worked at Kodak for 3+ years, and a total of almost 6 years in the film processing industry, as an electronic 'technician' and QC guy (plus some time in CIE Div 2)

[@C02isgreat]

Film is not dead, it’s still being used by BBC and many more Hollywood productions

[@staswlad]

Нажаль, немає субтитрів

[@m3snusteve]

Thanks for sharing this Fran. Have a great day.

[@sevenravens]

I wonder why women’s polished fingernails don’t catch fire when using a cigarette lighter??? Seems like they would if it’s so volatile… interesting…

[@GGray-gg4yn]

Hi Fran Me again, How about playing a few licks on the Ric for us ? It is such a sweet unique sound !! The 4001, and 4003 too. G.G.

[@konstantinkurlayev9242]

Thank you.