Free to Play Is Currently Broken - How High Costs Drive Players Away from F2P Games - Extra Credits

Squeezing money from their highest spending players causes most free to play games to push out the majority of their playerbase.
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[@TheMistress541]

It's sad that 4 years later, this video is still very accurate...

[@mateuszczyzewski4699]

no, WG doesn't fit here

[@cardiv5zuikaku944]

@@mateuszczyzewski4699 Saipan and Graff ZEp would like to say Hello.

[@mateuszczyzewski4699]

@@cardiv5zuikaku944 would they?

[@gregorybillings9458]

It's even more sad because hearthstone caters do whales now with thier development cycle

[@_wheat856]

Curufindul wait it’s been 5 years

[@199Bubi]

Short Update: Still broken.

[@Danmarinja]

And worst of all, it’s not even exclusive to free games anymore.

[@nemo3029]

even expensive triple A games have ridiculous predatory microtransactions

[@outermiddlegamer2591]

Update: still still broken

[@jembot7700]

*Sad*

[@leonamoonslasher7070]

Honestly after playing Gacha games I don't think it's really broken

[@XDeadzX]

It's shocking to see Wargaming included in this, a year later. At the time of posting, it was accurate, they were great, a model to follow. A year later?.. less appealing. Pay to win, exploitive, cash for ammo. Definitely not the same Wargaming from when this was posted.

[@a.s.5262]

This is completely true for WoT but WoWs is still pretty balanced.

[@qiushuang239]

For now anyways.

[@tiger-dq7kk]

XDeadzX Wargaming was sponsoring Extra credits one time, so i guess thats why :)

[@jamesking1940]

I think tanks and ships are almost 2 different companies so that's why 1 is a cash grab and the other feels like it legitimately deserves my money. Also it depends on region since Russia get it much better than EU and NA. Things cost hundreds in Asia

[@eemelilounela1212]

XDeadzX I'm praying WoWS doesn't go down the same path tanks did.

[@Fawstah]

Man its sad how many of the games listed as “good” have went bad. Rip hearthstone

[@farkhandanazshah4880]

Yeah *stares at minecraft bedrock* Right

[@BionicDance]

Frankly, I'd rather make _one_ purchase--the _full_ game itself--than making micro-transactions.

[@RematodeRanger]

Yeah! Games like garden warfare do the expenses well though, because one reason. You. Can get everything the same but slightly faster when paying.

[@Yamyatos]

+BionicDance I also like that more. But i dont have anything against micro transactions either. Sadly the name shifted and became a label for anything but "micro" transactions... -.-

[@BionicDance]

+SAW The Spartan "Miss".

[@armandomontero2423]

+BionicDance what about if that game dont like you, or you found something you dont like? personally i prefer F2P model (goods ones) that dont punish you for no open your wallet right away to be "god tier". The only thing about Micro-transactoins is need to be a "optional" Features. not a required feature, to you enjoy the game or even play it.

[@BionicDance]

+Armando Montero *what about if that game dont like you, or you found something you dont like?* What if what, now...? I cannot parse that sentence.

[@Trstnfr]

I like Pokémon Rumble World's F2P (or as Nintendo preferes to call it, Free To Start, which I think is a better name for the category) model. Like other F2P's you can spend money for in-game currency (gems in this case), but, unlike other F2P's, Rumble World has a spending limit of about $30-40 and once you spend that much, it prevents you from spending anymore money and will then give you 20 free gems daily as well as discounting the price of items in the shop. Essentially, once you spend the cost of a normal game, the game plays like a normal game.

[@timmyhuynh5539]

Tristan Crawford they should do this more with other games

[@IUndercoverTroll]

I know this is late but one thing about "Free to start" is it makes it sound like a demo. I don't know what a better name that would imply "Free but you can spend money to get a better experience" but free to start sounds like "A Demo" which is not the case in pokemon Rumble world (which almost turned me off cause I thought it was a demo) but if people could think of a better 3 word phrase that starts with Free to then go ahead.

[@hadoking3636]

Tristan Crawford Free to start Implies that there are going to be many transactions and brings them to the forrfront which is never good.

[@isaiahswartz991]

Hadoking hi

[@mattomanx77]

I really like the sound of this design, but then again the guy a few replies up said it sounds like a demo.

[@27000ants]

>Watching in 2019 >Sees Wargaming on the list of good guys Oh how the mighty have fallen

[@MsZsc]

keks

[@aero-cc6mt]

wargaming:" I was a god once"

[@seanj4119]

Pay2Rico, anyone?

[@regimate3720]

When you listed wargaming as a good example of a non-predatory free to play game I actually laughed. And then I remembered that premium dominance wasn’t really a thing yet 6 years ago.

[@notsoold6276]

$10,000 on a single F2P or $10,000 on a quite powerful gaming rig and 100 $60 games or a lot of AAA games and even more indie titles?

[@XxZigiixX]

+MalekitGJ He basically said it seems incredibly stupid to spend thousands of $$ on f2p apps when you can build a nice gaming computer and buy a ton of awesome games for way less money.

[@notsoold6276]

Yeah

[@andreis3416]

NotSoSMB do you talk about Clash Royale? 10k is not enough to max out an account, you need like 20k if you are a real noob, or a couple hundred bucks if you always make 12 wins at grand challenges, but anyway, you still need at least 1500-2000 bucks to max out

[@CalvinHodgson]

I knew someone who easily spent $1,000 to $2,000 in a single month. I told him do what you want with your money but a Playstation 4 and several good games could have been bought. They shrugged me off. They likely have 0 skill and are looking for a way to be top dog without any effort.

[@ninetails6218]

Calvin Hodgson See, I’d bully them for that. Like, if you have $2,000 disposable income every month then there’s so much better stuff to invest in. Invest in other, actually rewarding video games, invest in physical games, invest in your future. It’s fiscal irresponsibility like that that leads to instability down the line.

[@SalvadorDolbyvsZAWARUDO]

I am still in love with the TF2 model. You can literally get everything you ever wanted in the game for free from drops, crafting or trading, but at the same time, you could also just pay out. They don't ask for much, and it's not trying to force you. In fact, you could be one of the best players in the game without spending a single dime. I love that it gives equal chance to everyone and complete freedom.

[@lonercs]

TF2 is not as free to play as people say it is. I played the game as free to play before. You rarely get drops, the vast majority of the drops are not available to you, you have an extremely limited item bank, the vast majority of the servers are locked from you. You can play the game, but you can't craft in any meaningful regard. If you truly want to play TF2, you need to pay for it or have someone pay for it for you.

[@WildingGer]

thats nothng else to what riot does u just need a month and u could be challanger

[@emperorx5]

aka Why I went to Dota 2 instead of LoL, seriously Valve...you're too generous but I LOVE it

[@Hoplitejoe]

lonercs You are wrong about the majority of that. No servers are locked that aren't locked to other players without the password. All the Weapons still drop, Cosmetics won't however. You can craft all the weapons, just not cosmetics. 50 Items is hardly a small weapon bank, if you are playing enough to get more than that you probably should upgrade anyway. Most of the best weapons are the Stock anyway. You can play tf2 in a perfectly meaningful way, you just won't have as many hats.

[@SalvadorDolbyvsZAWARUDO]

lonercs Not true, I managed to get almost all of the spy gear (the class I main), on nothing but playtime and crafting. The only thing I did pay for was L'trange, because I really wanted it.

[@paint0772]

me as a F2P player in an S rank guild: I'm a dolphin in whale territory.

[@killercreep1384]

@@potato_x69 what

[@martinmarvinii3139]

What game?

[@TransparentLabyrinth]

Knock it off with casino RNG loot boxes especially. Christ, those things are a cancer.

[@Nat55atata]

TransparentLabyrinth atleast they sell well to other players :3

[@colincraigo5793]

TransparentLabyrinth THANK YOU!!!! I don't like any microtransactions in $60 games, but if you are going to do it, make it so people know for sure what they are purchasing...

[@colincraigo5793]

TransparentLabyrinth *COUGH* Call of Duty Supply Drops *COUGH*

[@colincraigo5793]

TransparentLabyrinth *COUGH* Destiny's "Treasures" *COUGH*

[@123goofyking]

TransparentLabyrinth My favorite game, Overwatch, has that. But I feel completely fine with it because it's not pay-to-win and a completely unnecessary purchase unless you want to "donate" that money yourself.

[@AtrociousNightmare]

Aaaaand in 2020, now the same (but even more extreme) model is pervasive in full-price titles made by major corporations. Well done, humans.

[@superflare7138]

Yeah, they should have a regulation on this or even abolish microtransaction. it's ruining many games, mostly mobile.

[@MajimeTV]

*cough* $30 for a mount that is completely aesthetic in an MMORPG for 10 days *cough* Maplestory

[@LvLdGhost]

knuxiefan1994 wait. people payed 30$ for a cosmetic mount that was only useable for 10 days? what the fuck?

[@whydoievenbothertoputthish2199]

+Zach Hill its what the world has become

[@TheFourthDefender]

Yeah, and on a fucking ugly, 2D side-scrolling game, in which the screen is usually so crowded with sprites that no one will see it anyway

[@LvLdGhost]

Yeah I've seen maplestory back in the day. That is fucking crazy

[@steventsan100]

Maplestory is pretty dead now.

[@derekw8039]

It's been a long time since these free to play and micro-transaction videos. I'd love to see you guys reflect on how these types of games have changed and improved/worsened since the time these videos were released.

[@jason2mate]

It's sad coming back to this via the recommended, and seeing just how far all the games listed in this have fallen. I don't even think i know of a game that hasn't gotten tons of hate for it's microtransactions now outside of i think warframe (and i don't even play that game)

[@mike.semark]

MapleStory is a fantastic example of an absolutely awful F2P model. There's a system called 'potential' which gives equippable items bonus stats, but the only viable way to reset the potential of an item (there are about 3 useful lines of potential per item, each item can have 3 lines maximum, and there are 20+ lines of potential in total) is by buying an item with real money. These items are called Cubes and they cost between $1.20 and $2.20 each. You need to use between 50-200 of these Cubes on average per equippable item (there are 17 equippable item slots on your character) to be able to stand a chance against most of the higher level bosses.

[@longrua1231]

All the bad memory of playing just came rushing back to me.

[@mike.semark]

Don't get me wrong, it was an extremely fun and entertaining game and I enjoyed it greatly, but only up until the point of the potential system becoming forced upon players =/ I've known a couple of people to have spend upwards of $20,000 on equipment on MapleStory and it's frankly sickening.

[@longrua1231]

Mazz I love MS, it was my first MMO but more better choice of gaming begin to pop up, MS dying in Vietnam around season 2,the whole potential system. I slowly gravitate to more concrete choices like Dota or console gaming( LoL hasn't been introduced to Vietnam yet).

[@DAliasReaper]

But the problem doesn't really stand out, because the game is like Guild Wars 2: There's barely any incentive to get better. Maplestory is literally the grazing the pasture simulator, there is literally no competition. Most of the stuff are cosmetic. If you want a worse example, look at Elsword Online. The fact there is "Ice Burner" lotteries that literally give power onto the players immediately when they get an amulet that instantly boosts their weapon without needing to go through that horrible RNG enhancement, or whether they get a free costume piece that clearly becomes more superior or gives them a huge edge over other people. Not to mention that the Economy in Elsword is literally joked upon in the community. (More to add, balance issues, neglect of old characters, etc.). Not to mention Costumes give a socket and can only be obtained by events (which most of the time would just give useless junk) or cash shop. There's the fact the game literally cuts down 4 of the max 8 skill slots immediately unless you pay $9, which has to be bought for every character you have. Maplestory isn't as bad as people say it is. It's meant to be casually played.

[@mike.semark]

DAliasReaper MapleStory is pretty bad... there is a lot of competitive content in MS, the Mu Lung Dojo is one example (it's essentially a time trial tower of bosses, and you're unable to even finish the thing unless you've invested a significant amount of real money into your character). The Tower of Oz is another example, there are 50 floors to that, each floor is a puzzle, and every 10 floors is a strong boss fight. The final boss has so much HP that the only classes capable of killing it in the game are those which deal upwards of 30 hits per second, and only if every single one of those 30 hits does the maximum damage. For some perspective, it'd cost ~$30,000 to create a character capable of doing that by making your own equipment in today's market.

[@AnthanKrufix]

I like how going premium in Robocraft helps the F2P players you play with just as much as yourself. Giving everyone in a match increased earnings just for playing in the same game as a premium player.

[@brendan9734]

Yes. Now, if only the devs would fix issues instead of adding 100 different weapons.

[@quantumplatinum3029]

Anthan Krufix Lol so much has changed in five months. The game i fell in love with got completlely fucked

[@brendan9734]

A short rant about Robocraft: Trailer advertises "build what you want and battle it" but the ONLY way to get weapons/movement systems is through a stupid crate system that awards random items. I can't build what I want because your she*tty free-to-play model is f*cking broken. Yes, a lot of people use "broken" when something isnt actually broken, but robocraft's progression system defenately is.

[@quantumplatinum3029]

EpicFaceless robocraft used to be like a normal game.

[@ArrowGriffon]

I remember when this game was good...... Now its just a really fancy casino since loot boxes are one of the only ways to get stuff........... Makes me so sad to see where this game has gone.......................

[@---jf9qh]

Extra credits art: have arms Me: "impossible"

[@Ryukuro]

Still no necks though

[@Wavorn100]

AND STOP WITH THE MISSLEADING APP ADS THAT YOU JUST STOLE FROM BETTER GAMES!

[@countclamface]

Yeah!

[@paulobatitay9362]

Basically 40 percent of android games

[@leaf2576]

Irony: a Hearthstone commercial came on before this video played.

[@aaabbb-gd8no]

+Madalyn Amber He mentionned heartstone was a GOOD exemple.

[@leaf2576]

Justin Briand Exactly. I'm just saying its funny how , out of anything that could have popped up, it was an ad concerning the very topic of this video 😂

[@aaabbb-gd8no]

Oh, ok. I was confused because you said ''irony''.

[@petersmythe6462]

+Madalyn Amber I didn't get any commercials... Oh, wait... adblock is turned on to prevent err, another type of unethical business (namely, adverts that link malware and PUPs).

[@Lukefonfabre9]

+Madalyn Amber oh God, Hearthstone is so P2W...

[@21leowheeler]

i think dota 2 deserves some special attention completely free the only thing you can do with your money is buy cosmetics and it's super successful just because fans feel like they wanna give back and purchase in game tickets a little trick it does is give out random items that are worth alot to ticket buyers through a lottery system but that's pretty fair it gets a little micro transaction off buying and selling of items which adds up and is an awesome way to make revenue

[@pringles2371]

To be fair there are many other games with that model, and it would take too long too list them all. Examples league, csgo, brawlhalla, and almost any other moba

[@21leowheeler]

Syrupymen - LoL with friends league doesnt give you free characters unlocked i think brawlhalla changed to be that way too havent played it in a while so not sure i ment the 0 pay free to play model were you can only really buy yourself cosmetics and has 0 grinding required dota is a great game cause its completely 0 skinner box you just really have to pay if you wanna support the game and help the community and that model did wonders for them

[@pringles2371]

leo wheeler I like having to pay for character tbh since it gives a goal to play

[@21leowheeler]

Syrupymen - LoL with friends thats a skinner box if you havent noticed that yet :/

[@pringles2371]

leo wheeler ?

[@jacksonmailen1147]

6 years later and this is still relevant. Especially with anything Supercell and TenCent touch

[@11annguyen]

I wonder if any developers are watching this series

[@Ares9804]

I was working with a small indi studio quite a while ago and that's where I took notice of this series. We were working on a SAO Indi MMO and our Project Lead said "watch that, it's good". I quit the project quite a while ago but yes, some may watch it.

[@douras96]

Yes, we even watched some in game design classes (with the teachers invinting us to watch them at home) but 75% of the students were already watching this channel at home...

[@dylanx811comics2]

11annguyen I am!

[@SusanBoots]

Studying to become one.

[@OddBranch]

11annguyen I am

[@AkilTheAwesome]

Dc Universe Online is going down this path. They've separated their consumers. They allow the "subscribers" attack the non-subscribers and bully them on the game's own official forums. A non-subscriber asking for less restriction is treated harshly. Even when the restriction in place is asinine to begin with. Tell me, how many games can you name, makes it so you have to pay to access YOUR OWN IN-GAME MONEY. How many games make it so you have to pay in order to trade and mail money. How many games are set up where as the "subscribers" actually attack "non-subscribers" for asking for an opportunity to pay for additional benefits? You heard that right. If a non-subscriber asks for a new product that lifts a restriction temporary, they are met with resistance and sometimes outright bullying. And this is all under a supposed FTP game. Beware of DCUO

[@TheOtherGuy27]

While I don't agree with some of the things they did (such as the currency cap) the player base adapted a long time ago. Exobits have become the real currency in the game and you can even use them to pay subscribers to make the higher level equipment mods for you. You still almost have to buy a couple expansions if you're a non-subscriber though so I wouldn't really call it F2P, but many of the expansions do offer good value.

[@laughingalex7563]

+AkilTheAwesome You haven't seen Champions online yet, or just how nasty it's become......

[@NoahWeisbrod]

What I especially dont like are "free to play" RPG's that start a quest series for free but later require a membership or expansion to finish. Wizard 101 was the worst for this that I've seen. Eventually any multi-part quest that got interesting required access to members' areas. This one NPC named Penny at first needed your help figuring out some paperwork, a fairly mundane task. Then you had to find things and kill a lot monsters across the area to help her research into Death Magic. Eventually Penny goes missing from her usual spot, at which point the game prompts you with a "go find her" quest. When another NPC gave me a hint as to her whereabouts, the clue led me to an area I couldn't access because I was only a free player.

[@NoahWeisbrod]

***** In Runescape, you need to be a member to start a quest that only members can finish.

[@NoahWeisbrod]

***** there are a few series that start as non-mem but end with member (Like the White Knights series or the updated Prince Ali Rescue)

[@NoahWeisbrod]

***** The White Knights series always started Black Knight Fortress but had the rest for members only.

[@NoahWeisbrod]

***** That quest series is at least six years old.

[@NoahWeisbrod]

***** The 2007 server? isnt it entirely members' only, anyway?

[@Axel_Xirics_Music]

Warframe is going that way too. The game isn't pay-2-win at its core. But the grind you get to actually enjoy the game on the really higher end. And i'm a veteran of the game that is struggling since that last few major content drops from last summer until last November. :/

[@thomasdr08]

Voidblade Artorias i had to stop simply due to not having so much time to grind those survival runs for pieces. It is an interesting concept that made paying for platinum to buy pieces from other players very worthwhile

[@VocalMabiMaple]

I'm here from 2019... it doesnt get better. In fact companies have taken the F2P model to hell, and hell rejected cause they were too evil to stay.

[@SakuraAvalon]

One thing needs to change is the term 'free'. It shouldn't be in the title or description or advertising. Instead, it should be something like 'Pay As You Go" or something along those lines.

[@deltax930]

+Roxie ღ That makes me think of subscriptions, which is not really the same

[@MrTreefoz]

+Zaraku Gaming Anyone who plays World of Warcraft or similar games? That kind of subscription is practically the same thing.

[@quantumplatinum3029]

Roxie ღ the Word free attracts more people

[@Karanthaneos]

League of Legends is free, you pay mainly for cosmetics and things that don't alter the gameplay itself. The only really sketchy part about that is the rune page system, but they're adressing that problem and changing it soon. And have also included more ways to non paying players to get some of that content at a slower rate, again, purely cosmetic

[@bakurasplanet4502]

It's a "bait and switch" terminology.

[@shrk128]

I think the basic problem with F2P games is that they are, more often than not, "free to play, pay to win".

[@darkartsdabbler2407]

shrk128 Indeed, pay to win is an all too common blight.

[@wizardtot4483]

shrk128 mostly in mobile games

[@k4zum4s4m4]

Yeah, currently i discover DC Legends, where the "cost" to run a mission you can do in less than 1 minute is 1 hour worthy of energy... You also have the option to skip the actually gameplay and get just the rewards once you perfect the run... I mean, 1h of waiting to play less than 1 minute of the game? This is ridiculous... (Also, the full energy is basicly 10 hours, if you are max level)

[@vitoramr]

What do you think about the new "Battle Pass" model that every game is adopting?

[@Natalie_the_Fae]

This entire dichotomy is like an ecosystem the developers have been hyper focusing on the predators for their high payouts. Yet completely ignoring the prey the predators need to survive.

[@TheSonicShoe]

I actually think one of the most fair and reasonable "f2p" business models around is Smite's. you can play the game without spending any money, and still have access to a rotating roster of characters that fill each of the games 5 primary roles, with the ablility to unlock characters of your choice using in game currency earned from matches, or you can simply pay somewhere between 20-30 dollars to permanently unlock all current and future characters. effectively, Hi-rez studios is saying "hey, here's a fully featured, online enabled, free demo of our game that we spent a ton of time and money developing. give it a try and see if you like it! If you do you can purchase it for half the price of most AAA titles. and if you REALLY like it, you can spend some more money to buy some fancy skins for your favorite characters, and show some support for the devs." seems to make a lot of sense to me.

[@sidma1980]

Dota 2's business model far more better than any other game. All characters are free, you can only buy accessories and you can earn these accessories by playing the game. You can sell what you earned in the game for getting real money!

[@johnbarthalameuwhaler]

Uzay Toprak The only problem with that is ValvE already had a huge userbase. An indie dev could never do that.

[@TheSonicShoe]

shunkwugga basically this. Valve has all the money. Hi-Rez still need to earn their keep, and as far as I'm concerned they do so in a fair way.

[@pillinjer]

I quite like either the freemium model or how "High School Story" does it. All content is locked behind a timewall (boo hiss), but it is an interactive story rather a puzzle game. This means that rushing through the game ruins it. On the other hand you can with the premium currency (rings ... Which are available slowly in game) you can unlock outfits and limited time stories. So the "Whales" get all the story, but if you can't pay for it atm, the overarching story is unaffected. I suppose it's like FarmVille a bit, but with a story as well.

[@TheSonicShoe]

pillinjer "high school story" sounds like a bad fan fiction :p

[@Mcl_Blue]

I think Warframe's model is pretty good too. You can pay for convenience (and to look pretty), but everything essential to gameplay (frames and weapons) can be acquired for free if you want. And with the new(ish) trading mechanics there, you don't even have to spend real money in the game, as you can trade the "Premium" currency with other people for in-game items.

[@McIceTV]

But the players who don't spend any money are stilll to limited. It takes to long to gain new weapons and your inventory is to small. At least that was the case a few months ago. For those who really like the gameplay and are going to play a lot its a great model.

[@andraskuhn5191]

McIceTV Yes, well this is sort of the place where I'd guess the dev draws the line. You can't give everything for free afterall. A little inconvenience and the discouragement of hoarding is both an acceptable loss for an essentially free game. On the other hand, if you have little time to play and sort through your stuff, you might aswell part from a small* amount to make it easier. Yes, this is an artificially induced slowing to progress, but it makes quite a difference to store 10/30/60/100+ items for a large playerbase, and provide content that lasts more than a couple of hours. *scale to individual needs

[@Mcl_Blue]

McIceTV You do have a point, but I don't see why someone who isn't going to play it a lot (as opposed to those who really like the gameplay) would need a bigger inventory.

[@darkmyro]

McIceTV well that's the thing if it comes down to a game you really enjoy then you dont mind spending the money, or waiting months to get that items cause you saved up cause the game is that fun to play, ive been playing a lot of TF2 and firefall and in neither of those games do i feel "omg i have to spend money to get anywhere in this game" but with most zynga games i do it made me completely ignore any game with a what seems like a similar model its the reason i don't play clash of clans or candy crush cause i hate games where I'm limited in the time i can play them. I simply want a f2p game where i can get everything i want in the game free if i wanted to, but if i chose to spend some money i wouldn't feel like I'm just throwing it at the screen never to see it again, i want that money to mean something when i use it

[@Gutzahn]

McIceTV Warframe takes long without spending money, but you don't need much to get a very satisfying experience. I spend 10€ on it, played it for 100 hours and it was all around good fun. It was some time ago though, so things might have changed.

[@TheFourthDefender]

Shigeru Miyamoto spent four years working on OoT with his team because they were, before anything else, passionate artists. Nowadays video games are no longer art and fame for the most of them, but only about making money in the most mischievous ways possible. Money corrupts everything, always. Kampf dem Kapital! Blood on the walls!

[@ethantaylor5425]

the face on your whale tossing cash in the thumbnail broke me

[@TheAsvarduilProject]

So, I've got a crazy idea - why don't we make games that are...wait for it...priced at $10 a pop? I'm sure more people can afford a $10 game than a $60 game.

[@SirKickz]

You can't cover the expenses of a AAA development budget on that price.

[@sukamamule]

Graidon Mabson The AAA market can't support itself for 60$ a game. Instead there butchering games and selling them to us bit by bloody bit for 60 bucks each, not including what they gut to give Gamestop there pre-order cut. I love the 10$ idea, and if AAA Developers can't adapt then good riddance to those wallet sharks!

[@BigTuk]

That might work better than you think. If steam has taught anything it's that the lower the cost.. the more sales you will make. As for recovering the cost of AAA development. Well that's the industry's problem. I.e. the game industry, like every other industry needs to learn to find a way to produce things more effeciently and without ballooning costs. It can be done... it has been done.

[@Terker2]

Drapony Sala You know that AAA doesnt mean evil buisnessman trying to get your money right?

[@luccagiovani]

You actually get more money if you let people pay whatever they want. Why not let them?

[@MrJudicater]

Couldn't be more on the spot for Clash of Clans with the December 2015 update. To advance in the game, you HAVE to spend money on gems if you're a Townhall 11 (the highest in the game). The armies you need to get resources cost more then you're able to get from actually attacking. It's actually more profitable to not attack at all. Of course, the Whales in the game had to spend roughly $1,500 the day the update was released to max out their everything that was introduced. Hundreds, if not thousands of people did this. I was not one of them, and therefore, I can't compete, or even advance.

[@nahitzen]

Ummm, i think not. I am a th11, my defenses are at the max for th10 but the walls are lvl9 and lvl 10. Inhavnet build the eagle artillery and dont plan on doing so soon because it would harden wars. My heroes are level 20 each (warden its going to lvl2) ... And im doing fine farming at champion. I like to barch for an hour then log off, and sometimes i leave a six golem army cooking and thr proceed to attack someone with lots of resources, making sure to get the bonus. There is needed a fix on the amount of resources in the game, but its not i possible to advance, even if you are th11,

[@TheEpicDudeMC0524]

Rick just play royale

[@tylerthomas9113]

I quit the game around the time they added an update that kicks you out of the game after being on for set amount of time untill your attacked again to stop players playing defensively

[@silverhawkscape2677]

It's and been Six years and nothing has changed since this video was made.

[@alphacuremother1019]

free to play is perfect until it becomes pay to win. and thats what you missed in this video

[@Blackleper321]

jay can They actually did. it starts at 1:38

[@w.kuiper316]

jay can The reason i don't like clash royale

[@PyroPandaMan]

Willem Kuiper Clash royal started pretty shakily, but with the concept of tournament standard and challenge mode introduced they've actually fixed the issue of only being able to play competitively by spending a ton of money. You can now compete in High level tournaments with a collection that you could gain in less than 6 months for free. Also by dropping about 10-20$ on the game like I did you can speed this process up dramatically. Clash royal has a game mode where the best way to win is paying money, but it also has a game modes that are fair to the average player now.

[@sophiejones7727]

uh, sorta. A free to play game needs to be satisfying for the free players, and the players who only pay a few bucks a month. Even a very pay-to-win game can sometimes be that. One of the keys is mechanics that reward teamwork. People feel satisfied if they feel they can contribute to their team: even if their contribution is small. The browser-based MMORTS Grepolis, is a good example of this (although in many other respects it's not a very good game). Ostensibly, it is very pay-to-win. You can get more done, acquire more land and wealth, and get more troops if you pay money. And you really can spend a virtually unlimited amount of money if you like. BUT, you will quickly realize that going it alone is a really bad idea, even if you are willing to drop hundreds of dollars on the game (namely, the moment when you get attacked by three or more different cities at once). Enter, the alliance mechanic. And it is through this mechanic that free players are rewarded-even in this very pay-to-win game-because all the alliance members share the spoils of alliance victories. And, even the smallest city-state can contribute something important to the alliance war effort: they can spy on the enemy, and share the fruits of their espionage with their allies through the alliance chat feature. Like at the planning tables of actual bronze age Greek princes, everyone in the alliance has a voice in chat. Because even the poorest players contribute something to their alliance's war efforts, and get something from them: they stay in the game. Which means this game does not have nearly the same player retention problems that a lot of F2P games do. It does still have player-retention problems, but this is mostly due to bad design of the game interface and a few wonky mechanics.

[@howardlanus8610]

Personally I don't mind paying some to play the game but I hate how the super spenders get all the advantages just because they have more money to spend than the rest.

[@madeline1815]

Best way to do F2P: Let people buy stuff, but don't let them get insanely OP stuff that ruins the game for others. TF2 is a good example of how to do FreeToPlay right. You CAN buy those weapons (or find them, it's not that hard, just play the game), but most of them are sidegrades, each with their own advantages and disadvantages, while the default weapons you get are the most balanced. And nearly all the other stuff in the game is cosmetics, which doesn't affect the game at all, but people still buy them.

[@Hermoan4120]

Another way to do it is if the things you can buy is ONLY COSMETIC.

[@AtH1338]

Or League of Legends, no advantages really besides buying rune pages

[@Daxank]

Or even better : Allow them to buy cosmetics ONLY through some kind of random thing. Like a scratch card. You have a really high ammount of chance to get a cosmetic, but a really small ammount to get the one you really want. People are going to buy that, way more easily if you also make the cosmetics tradable (don't link it to the player, that's dumb)

[@livinglifeform7974]

Daxank TF2 has crates and keys Crates are found really often and are almost worthless But keys are Worth loads of ref You buy keys for $2 (Or trade for them) And use the keys to open crates where you will find a random item Like a strange or cosmetic. Also most people just trade for cosmetics, Its Allways cheaper

[@Daxank]

Living Lifeform I still think that this system is kind of crap though, because the ammount of unboxing is really low but there are lots of keys on the trade market :/

[@ThatEntityGirl]

Team Fortress 2 is the best free to play game. Seriously, you can buy items, but that's not the only way to get them. It doesn't feel unfair when you're trying to get a certain item without buying because all items are gotten based on chance, and all of them have an even chance of being gotten. The store just functions as a sure fire way to get the item you want. Extra Credits, could you please talk about TF2's design?

[@VonDelacroix]

I disagree, I think path of exiles model is better, you dont buy anything, the game is actually free. Without paying a dime, you could be just as good as the next guy. Only thing there is to buy is cosmetic stuff that doesn't affect gameplay at all, or stash tabs, so you can hold more stuff, and they give you pleanty to start with, 3 tabs is enough for anyone...except me, because I'm a hoarder.

[@ThatEntityGirl]

VonDelacroix Wait..... so people literally spend enough money for that company that made Exiles to make a living off of on strictly functionally useless clothes?!?!?! My mind is blown....... although for some reason I'm not that surprised.......

[@RedOphiuchus]

Entity1037 A lot of F2P games subside with nothing but cosmetic pay options, and some utility options that don't give a very competitive edge, like items that can warp you to any place you've visited. You actually attract quite a few buyers in this model because average spenders don't mind breaking out their wallet to make the character they're playing as look more aesthetically unique because they don't feel pressured to pay by the need to keep up with the power it gives other players. This is different from the TF2 model of course, but they both attract average buyers in different ways.

[@VFXCompositor]

TF2s competitive scene might be even better. In 6v6 only vanilla items(including reskinned ones) and a very few situational items like BONK! are allowed. Even in pubs, if you want a specific item/weapon, just find someone to trade with.

[@pawala7]

Bad example. TF2 (and TF historically) was never a stand-alone game. You cannot compare what's basically a really good mod with independent titles that have to start from scratch. Without the income from Half-life and Source Engine sales, I highly doubt TF would have been offered for free from the beginning. Hat sales just wouldn't be enough to cover the dev and hosting costs.

[@ryanc4033]

3:20 the problem is not the game being not free, it’s the fact that the game portrays its own self as being 100% free to play. When in most cases to have an enjoyable experience it’s not. We as a community are not “entitled” people, all we want is fair and honest advertising.

[@FerraticaTheBard]

This video, and the other F2P videos, is making me really appreciate just how good AQ Worlds is to its free players. They give us so much stuff, and have multiple ways you can spend money on them and your game, depending on what you're willing and want to spend money on. I'm sure there's flaws in there somewhere, no one's perfect, but this is one of the only games where I don't find myself repeatedly resentful about certain things costing me money, and which also gives me a really solid gaming experience without spending any.

[@EvilKimau]

*EC Nails dark side of F2P* I once tore up a contract causing me massive monetary and emotional damage just to avoid becoming part of this. I refused to work in a job I had ethical issues with. I make games to make peoples lives better not profit off their misery and emotional well being. Watch this video as they do a great job explaining the problem. Thanks EC! Thankfully there are now good examples out there to point to in the F2P market.

[@WillRobinson]

I know the feeling . I once had to get special dispensation from an employer to not work on an e-gambling project. Luckily we had other projecs on the go at the time or I'd have been tearing up my contract too.

[@EvilKimau]

Yeah most employers will be pretty good about it. This involved moving to a new country and back. Losing my relocation package and paying for two moves

[@mrkiddguy]

If you havent already, could you do an episode on the impact of mods in a community?

[@deriznohappehquite]

Mods as in modifications or mods as in moderators?

[@Bretout]

John D. why not both? 1 episodes each.

[@isaiahuelmen7483]

The podium stance really helps to look more dominant and speechlike, I find that very interesting, as very few channels with similar themes use this sort of concept, and honestly, I love it!

[@olegoleg258]

"what do you have there, game?" "A KNIFE!" "YES"

[@KyuubiMinato]

But if we agree they aren't free to play, should we even be calling them "FREE to 'play' "?

[@yumri4]

we called them F2P games as they are free until you willingly choose to pay most of the time in which how much you pay is ussualy up to you and not a one price fits all kind of thing like games which you buy at the store which come with it all or most of it anyways

[@soylentgreenb]

Free to play is an attempt to get the most amount of players possible to play the game and pay the most they would be willing to spend. F2P is a suitable acronym, but it actually stands for free to pay.

[@yumri4]

shunkwugga it depends on which F2P model they are going with though i think the one whcih you are talking about is not F2P but a differnet pay-to-play model is all

[@KiroOsexXIII]

Nah, they're Free to Pay.

[@rockneck9811]

Well,they are free to play games,you dont have to spend $$,but they are not free games you will not get the whole game experience without either paying or grinding.

[@kingbrachy9035]

in my opinion tf2 has the best free to play system out there

[@jacksonturner997]

Well, it's valve. A company who cares about the consumer base (at least on the outside) to gain revenue. Tf2 is nearly a decade old. Clash of clans barely lasts until this year.

[@theposhdinosaur7276]

+American Rebel well don't get me wrong i love steam but don't think that they wouldn't screw you over if they thought they could remember the temporary paid mods system? valve is happy to be "the good guy" and heck maybe they are... for now they can change management at any time and begin going down a dark path like how they don't give a shit about greenlight but oh well that's the end of my rant

[@EpicFishStudio]

+Mad the Dragon Same with dota and CS. Volvo has good ego.

[@EpicFishStudio]

Retro Dota2 international had total prize pool of 16 million $'s, mostly funded by community's micro transections. 8 million for top team, 1.6 million for each player in it

[@blahblahgdp]

+Mad the Dragon good thing i payed to play it

[@traveel9409]

Cough cough CLASH OF CLANS cough cough GAME OF WAR cough cough MOBILE STRIKE cough cough Man I need to get that cough checked out.

[@thewritingsloths2136]

Bro.. i have over 1000 gems in COC without spending a cent.

[@takebacktheholyland9306]

Roblox?

[@takebacktheholyland9306]

Plus Coc Just need patience

[@mehmeh5615]

Traveel cough cough monster legends cough cough wow me too...

[@jeffersongreenidge2791]

Cough cough War Robots

[@a.dollar70]

I started watching the extra history part of the channel , and came across this by accident , you make amazingly informative , engaging and simply fun to watch content ,much love!

[@danfield3349]

Absolutely love the way you craft your message and the perspective from which you approach the topics !!

[@Dakeyras83]

You are wrong about Heartstone, it feed mostly on whales. People like Kripp or TB or others admitted to spend several hundreds of dollars on this game. Simply because spending 50$ leave you in half way of nowhere. And if you think that 2$ for arena run is reasonable then i think we have different view of what is reasonable. Small prices here and there is what feed on most people psychology hole. Similar to 99 prices. I found that smaller price is, worse people are at judging value ratio. They will whine about 60$ game but spend 1$ without blink of the eye no matter what. Not only that, they lost count how much they spend. Another bad think is, what maybe news to you, that f2p games do not care about poor countries and do not support region pricing. What was always great for me about games that they were great value for money, old games like Homm3 i played for years, it is sad to see how it change and how some people support it.

[@jibbyjackjoe]

So, Mr. Economics. What is "reasonable" for an arena run? I'd be very interested to see what model you could come up with.

[@Thedeathsoul000]

im f2p and i play arena all the time :P amd gaining at least 200 coins from it profit

[@christophedlauer1443]

You point at prominent youtubers that spend money on games as a business investment and claim that because they paid a lot, blizzard would rely on them ? I believe you got things a bit confused there. Those expenditures are also not the whales EC mentioned in their video. They are talking about people that actually spend thousands of dollars on these games. It's quite an order of magnitude above what Totalbiscuit says he usually spends on these games ( he mentioned a 50$ cap during a podcast). Somone famous once said : "There is no such thing as a free meal." Meaning that someone ALWAYS has to pay. If you are neither the one paying, nor the one beeing paid for a service - you ARE the Product beeing sold.

[@nothGhost]

If $2 is unreasonable to you, pay $0 dollars then. Do the quests and win games in constructed and buy arena runs with gold, which are almost always worth it given the rewards, even if you win 0 times.

[@Alkerae]

I'm in total agreement, I wanted to like Hearthstone I really did, but when I tried to play for free I basicly spent 2 weeks with the starter decks before getting sick of it and stopping. A booster pack here or there, a run through the arena mode. You simply do not get anywhere in that game without paying, and then once you do it leaves you unsatisfied so you have to pay more. It tries to turn you into a whale and offers next to nothing to hook you in the first place, why do people think this business model isn't crap? [EDIT] I hated the $2 entry fee into arena mode, it's 2 dollers for an hour of play, and this is what EC thinks is the cheap option? But, you almost always get a booster pack from it even if you play poorly, and booster packs are $1.495 each, so if you're using this as an alternative to buying packs then it's not so bad.

[@jimmyc.491]

Thanks for coming to terms with your faults at the beginning there, Dan. And also for doing it with such great comedic timing. X )

[@SuperZez]

I think the accusation of entitlement is rarely fair in this instance. It’s not that people want everything for free. It’s that they’re annoyed that the cost of premium stuff in f2p games is ridiculously priced and almost never provides as satisfying an experience as spending that money on a console or PC game. Mostly because things like paying for consumables and loot boxes is almost impossible to price fairly by definition.

[@morgankasper5227]

yeah cause a free to play game should be free to play if it isnt FREE to play fully it is a demo not a full free to play game

[@RandomJeanc]

The best example of any F2P model is Path Of Exile, all micro transactions are purely cosmetic effects, nothing that vastly changes the gameplay or gives you an advantage over other players. Truly a marvelous game, when I spent a hundred hours and spent absolutely nothing on it. The developers themselves were tired of the pay to win model, so they made one that is purely based on skill and effort, and it is amazing! I loved it so much I reviewed it on my channel, and gave it a perfect score, it's an excellent game worth playing.

[@jacksonturner997]

This war of mine may not be free, but the way they charged dlc's I've never seen. They charged 2.00 minimum for some art cosmetics in the background, and where does the money go? To charity. All of it. That's some awesome polish devs.

[@RandomJeanc]

American Rebel oh yeah exactly! And I reviewed that game on my channel. They are admirable for that.

[@primecreator5257]

Yeah, "worth paying", but did you do it? Nope. Your love isn't paying any designer's bill.

[@Wolforce]

This is and always was so untrue it hurts. In poe you neeeeed bag space. Very much. Its is still a good model, no need to lie

[@HaiyooooArt]

Hes right in that nearly all microtranscations are cosmetic tho. There's just one or two items like inventory space and skill resets, none of which break the game if you don't have it - nor do they cost whales. Even if you had them, there wasn't a power spike in pvp or anything. It's not pay to win. I've worked with GGG, and for me, i felt they were very concerned about player experience. I've got quite a bit of respect for them. It's pretty easy to make a game like PoE p2w or create killer whales.

[@anakinskywalker9729]

Extra Credits then : This Extra credits now : PlAy WoRlD oF TaNkS

[@JohnSmith-xq1pz]

4 years later nothing has changed... no surprise

[@eliegbert8121]

"Valve" Me: Laughs in artifact

[@fattytan1377]

We don't talk about that game here

[@MsZsc]

artifact is a fucking paid game lol

[@goldgriffin100]

You will always get more for 60$ ( like having all what the game offers for good ) when you buy A non free to play game.

[@fatzomby1833]

I disagree and agree at the same time. F2P games are usually updated with new content, offer new stuff to buy, special events, longer game life, and generally a lot more players. Buying games outright generally means that you bought it as is and nothing much new will come out in the future. Some games of this nature have released more maps or items or something, but generally the support for these games doesn't last nearly as long as free to play games... the upside to these games though is that you already bought everything with that 60$. you don't have to worry about spending more to keep up with friends. you just need to worry about the life of the game....

[@fatzomby1833]

also, keep in mind that if you want to play games that you outright bought, generally you still have to pay a monthly fee to the game console that you use such as xbox or ps3 and various others.... but you are able to play many various games instead of just one.....

[@goldgriffin100]

What i mean is when you break down each purchase you make which what you actually own, the content wont match what you have gotten if you had just paid 60. it would actually take 100s maybe even thousands of dollars to match a retail game and only if what you pay for is something that you could own, as many free to play games will only let you rent items, or have limited uses ( expendable ) or are just charging so you dont have to wait. If you sit down and add up what it take to have a good amount of content and keep yourself competative or play without being interupted you would realize how much less you are getting for your money the only reason you dont notice is because they are taking it slowly and not at once. The reason they have a fake currency you have to buy then use in there game is to make it harder for you to understand what you are getting for your money. Most free to play games have less content than retail but will still cost you 300 times more money to get it all

[@goldgriffin100]

Fat Zomby Yeah I game on a PC so i dont pay anything for online play, but if your talking about a service like WoW I find that even more fair than most free to play. I just want to buy my content and play instead of being offered free gimped gameplay while being solicited the real experience for an extreme price. Sorry, i just see through this scam

[@Aeradom2000]

Mark Griffin How is that working for Elder Scrolls Online? Only reason I ever gave TOR a try was because IT was F2P. Once I played it for a while and was having fun, I was more than happy to pay 15 a month for a few months and really enjoy the game.

[@berniemacsgreatesthi]

**Plays F2P game for one hour** Please upgrade to reach this level of the game.... WTF!!!

[@vpaul4374]

3 years later, the F2P system still broken and I don't see hope in the near future.

[@thomasalberto613]

I agree... I used to prefer free to play, but now I'm always suspicious at a new free to play game, though I would argue Hearthstone is not a good free to play model. Having the best decks certainly gives you a massive advantage over someone who has never spent a dollar in the game, and that's not mentioning the card rotation, which widens that gap even more.

[@rockinchimp]

Can't fathom how someone could spend thousands on a game...

[@suicidalfish2]

It's quite simple as it only needs one word (most of the time) and it's vanity.

[@rockinchimp]

TheAXEMAN911 Maybe but as I see it surely you can get equal (or greater) enjoyment from spreading that vast amount of cash among more than one thing... I could do a ton of things with that kind of money and would never dream of spending it all on something like a game.

[@rockinchimp]

***** Pretty pathetic haha.

[@cuckoophendula8211]

There's now news that there's a 15 year old who spent $46k+ out of his grandfather's credit card for a free to play game.

[@rockinchimp]

Cuckoo Phendula $46k!? Someone isn't getting anything from his grandfather for the rest of his life...

[@ThePhantomGazz]

Good video. I just wish the games that have been traditional $60 wouldn't go down this path. I have been very upset with my favourite franchise turning F2P, Project Ace/Namco turning Ace combat into a F2P game that is VASTLY over priced. Stuff like this makes me hate the free to play model.

[@ThePhantomGazz]

With you Brother!

[@maesfunnyvideos]

Command & Conquer is also a good example, especially when a traditional sequel was announced first and is still possible just sitting around over in an EA vault for what ever reason with so much wasted time an money...

[@greenarcangel]

they go that side... it is called day one DLC

[@Medytacjusz]

The immoral "exploit the worst parts of human psyche" part actually concerns the non-f2p designs too quite a lot. It started when games started advertising themselves as addictive, eschewing the satisfying experience for straight-up "I can't help myself". And we've gone from there. Not that non-gaming industries and their marketing departments have not developed their fair share of shady practices, but it's rampant in games, probably because games tap into our psyche directly in subtle and effective (and scary) ways. Which why addiction is a thing.

[@elmounrs]

LOL seein this in 2019 and being a World of Tanks Player it makes me laugh... And REALLY SAD also.

[@MsZsc]

buy girls und panzer dream tank match

[@damnfreakingsien]

Ikr. Forcing you to grind with a terrible gun for one hundred games is totally fun.

[@marcorodvas]

Smartphone games story would be so different & better if in-app purchases never existed in the first place.

[@PyroAssasin573]

If its for cosmetics I'm all for it. For something you need to actually be good at the game? Fuck that

[@theletters9623]

PyroAssassin573 gems, want cool decor or faster production? buy stuff! okay with patience? 100% free!

[@PyroAssasin573]

Yup

[@PaladinfffLeeroy]

+Brando,s Anime Channel They can make money without exploits. Yes companies need to make money. Call me stupid or foolish all you want but I think that games should be made with a passion for the games themselves without too much concern for budget. Designers should care for the games they make and the players they are providing the games to, not just about the size of their wallets.

[@HalfBreedMix]

+Paladin Leeroy Because in the real world, designers/developers are in a business; and as such try to make the most revenue while keeping their cost down (this = Profit). Your ideal Designers you described are hobbyists, which is great assuming they have another job to keep their lights on and food in the fridge. We can indirectly force developers to put in all that passion you mentioned,,,,,but,,,,that means not buying anything but the quality you are seeking; now you may be willing to follow thru with this "quality or nothing" boycott, but the droves of casual-gamers and joe-blow-mainstream consumers won't.

[@SirMalorak]

PoE has - hands down - one of the best F2P models out there, right up w/ Dota 2. ...But it has the same problem you told. There's rewards for spending a fuckton of money >_

[@ZiggyDGaming]

I do think GGG need to start tailoring some packs for people with only $5 to spare. A full set of mild cosmetics they can use to customize their characters. But agreed, it's right up there with DOTA 2 in terms of ethical F2P

[@SirMalorak]

ZiggyD Gaming Good day, fine man! Good to see the grounded site of KZbin popularity on random videos just commentating because they feel like it. Yup, that'd be nice. I already gave GGG some money, just for supporting the game to be honest, but there should be more small things and less 20-30$/€ things in the future. That'd be nice.

[@thatkles]

PoE's rewards are entirely cosmetic, though, and GGG even vets players who want to buy the most expensive packs to make sure they can actually afford it. I know they've turned down players in the past who were trying to spend beyond their means. How many other game devs, or companies in general, will tell consumers that they can't buy their product for their own good?

[@fy8798]

That is not what EC was talking about. There are rewards to spend lots of money, sure... ...but that's not what attracts whales. Whales are attracted by actual ingame benefits. Real, tangible benefits. Like, for example, +10000 on some stat.

[@JohannLudwigEdel]

Fen Y Whales are also attracted by pure cosmetic items, make them rare enough & high priced is the way to catch a whale. For most it doesnt matter if they get some ingame benefit, most dont even use the stuff they buy. Its all about buying/owning it to make yourself feel special.

[@Kai-tm8lx]

sorry but wargaming is getting increasingly pay to win

[@Kai-tm8lx]

they just released an 2 op tanks in wot for $100(usd)

[@Seblak]

Well, this video is from 2014. Many things will change

[@dotbrothers8811]

I love free to play games, but no, I'm 11, and money isn't gonna come by often. I know this is what you talked about in your video, but I believe that every single little thing in a game should be obtainable by playing the game. In-game money is what we NEED. I dunno if this would work for developers, but if you got some f2p people and some "whales" together, heck, you might just be able to convince f2p's to pay some money on their game. I intend to become a game developer when I grow up, so I just might take the plunge. Who knows? Also, you guys are a really inspirational channel, and I would like to praise you for your hard work. (:

[@nujumkey]

DOT Brothers hey, you've always got Kongregate where amateur devs post stuff for free. Otherwise, people running a buisness need money, and their need for money outweighs your need for free entertainment

[@GamingVidsPs3]

If you talk like that and articulate that well at 11 then you have a bright future my son.

[@ggtylerr]

Nujum Key Even Kongregate is falling in to this though, look at Spellstone.

[@wolfgang7734]

are you a younger verson of me? just asking. ..

[@Wolham]

I can understand your train of thought, DOT bro, but it's a bit entitled. The game developers create games as a profession, not a hobby, and their job is to create the best experience they can, and charge accordingly. Catering their pricing to people unable to pay for anything is not business, it's charity. And why would someone who creates games for a living just give away their entire creation with no profit, neither short term nor long term? Don't get me wrong, I despise the pay to win model; but, I love the cosmetics model; it allows people with money to enhance their experience with the game and devs to earn more, without compromising the experience of people with the base game, and as such I see no problem denying f2p players from that additional content.

[@syn010110]

How to make a non-evil F2P game that makes money: Put this stuff in your cash shop: Character slots, bank slots, shop-exclusive costumes or outfits, shop-exclusive mounts, XP boosts, reputation boosts, gold drop boosts, appearance changes, race/faction changes, server transfers, name changes, one-month-subscriber consumables, shop-exclusive housing items, shop-exclusive titles and other things along similar lines. You should also be able to sell these things to other players directly or through the auction house for in-game currency. Subscribers should get some of the above benefits automatically as a consequence of their subscription as well as added grind-removal perks. What should NOT be in the cash shop: Anything that should be considered a core functionality of the game. Anything that directly and measurably makes your character more powerful, and I mean _anything at all_, no matter how sneaky it can be. When it comes to cash-shopping, you should only be able to essentially buy the ability to skip grind or buy pretty things. You should not be able to buy unfair advantages, and you should not be required to use the shop in order to engage with the content in any meaningful way. *No content should be completely blocked behind a paywall*. If the game has a costuming system to let you customize the looks of your armor, it should be _fully accessible_ by the free players. Put some shop-exclusive outfits on the shop, but the system itself should not be entirely stuck behind a paywall. Every single part of the game should be accessible without paying a cent, but paying that cent should enrich and enhance each specific aspect of the game. Most current F2P games are not doing this and are simply engaged in a race to see who can fleece the most money out of the largest number of people.

[@DrZann]

Clash of Clans is one of the biggest examples of what this video discussed. If you want to get ANYWHERE in that game you need gems to speed up building processes (which can take days or weeks as the game goes on) and to get the ridiculous amount of resources to upgrade or build anything. Of course, you almost NEVER earn gems in-game, and have to pay out the ass for them with real money. I eventually gave up on the damn thing because upgrades and build times were far too long, and my base kept getting steamrolled by people who were obviously stupid enough to blow money to make their leveling up much faster than the average player.

[@oleandreas5014]

No you defienitly don't! I have gotten a completly maxed out base and 5 builder witout spending a pennie! I think you should rather point your gun at Candy crush!

[@oleandreas5014]

5months of awesomeness

[@oleandreas5014]

And it wasn't grinding since it logged on to Attack and upgrade not to Clear bushes. But i did it. So kinda did it without trying

[@DrZann]

Ole Andreas Egeland Rørvik Yeah I'm gonna call bullshit on that. There's no way you got 5 freaking builders without spending cash on gems to get them.

[@oleandreas5014]

Lol! Its not as hard as you think

[@filipm5175]

There are some F2P games that crossed the line, Like a historical F2P game with turns that every time you start a turn you get a 30s ad but if it doesnt happen for two turns it turns into a 1min 30s ad

[@vizthex]

Man, it's been 4 years and we've had a bit of improvement.

[@jevs1555]

Nope

[@DG-ew9wb]

Oh how far have many of the mentioned companies fallen by 2019... Especially the praised Activision-Blizzard.

[@PaPajTheLad]

TF2 is the perfect F2P game becuse you dont have to buy anything to get good in it

[@RacecarsAndRicefish]

Jakub Przybylski agreed!

[@nisnegativeone]

same with Dota2

[@wolfgang7734]

Jakub Przybylski welp... I expected at least one tf2 related coment...

[@PaPajTheLad]

thanks i guess...

[@andylau5846]

wot do u mean the more expensive your hat the more skill you have lol

[@Kareszkoma]

Honestly.. The world is filled with bad business practices that have been proofed bad, of which businesses close, from food industry till game industry.. but companies just go charging in it and close down. Same with this F2P model. You spent millions on a game - a huge investment - and the whole company hangs on it's success. But you made a good game! Right? Than they ruin it with a pay2pay model, which is neither a purchase once nor is it a f2p. The income drops rock bottom, the player base, community, avrg player numbers fall heavily. Barely anyone plays the game after half or 1 year. Game servers closed, game goes offline, company goes bankrupt. That's how it is.

[@MCAndrew360]

How Ironic is it that people are turned away from something free because it costs to much

[@MythlyInari]

If only FP2 Developers looked at how Warframe does it's F2P system- MAKE THE DAMN PREMIUM CURRENCY OBTAINABLE WITHIN GAMEPLAY. Seriously, there's no reason players shouldn't be able to obtain "gold" currency through the game. You can gain 100$ of content for the game via trading within the game. By late-game, you'd even be able to use your syndacate standing to trade augments for weapons and abilities, and Syndacate weapons to pratically "farm" platnium. People that buy platnium in the game spread it out amongst others in the game. However, there's an overal marketplace with "some" platnium exlcusive items like Orokin Reactors and Catalysts. They are at a cheap 20p...which people buy all the time, including forma. Platnium almost never goes way out of hand.

[@PocketDeerBoy]

I rarely spend money on free to play games because it often ends up being cash that you spend purely to get rid of a problem with the gameplay. It feels more like swindling than anything. It’s like the game won’t even let me have fun unless i spend more money on it.

[@starburst98]

fun fact to add, the game Granblue has actually installed a floor to their free to play game so that, while you could still spend a lot, you can't spend theoretically infinite amount of money to get the thing you want. it's a gacha game, as in, spend money to roll a slot machine for a chance to get a character. they have made it so that at 300 dollar you simply get the character you wanted. and since usually the big new characters come out only once a month that is down to only 300 dollars a month instead of like 5000 dollars with a risk of still never getting it.

[@Carzeyday]

Well, ofcrouse this model is failing. Don't they know whales are a endangered species?

[@bray2964]

wanna hear a joke? they call Trove "free to play"

[@ericatrent89]

Bram Jans I play trove and don't pay anything

[@bray2964]

Erica Trent I've never paid anything either. But the game somehow deleted all of my unlocks except for classes

[@nemtudom5074]

Pffft, hahaha i remember when it was actually free to play, that fockin shit is pure cancer now

[@sosig6445]

for me i hate trove for having the worst building system ever... i'll happily grind if i can build properly, but i can't it's so finicky

[@Chewingice5]

I glad that I found this video, because I've noticed that one of my favorite games on my phone began pandering to "whales" . Releasing a new batch of characters every month and selling items (that would cost $8-$35) that gave you more chances to obtain a character, however it did not increase your odds.

[@TycoonTitian01]

I like games, but I’m kinda annoyed by, you can buy a game for $50 US dollars, but there is another $100 in expansions. While you can get the “Ultimate Edition” for $100 US dollars

[@TheJboy88]

This is the first time I've heard anyone using the term "whale". Where did it come from?

[@BitSmallX3]

apparently a gambling term for people who spend all day (and all there money) on slotmacheans at Casinos, mabe, somthing like that. its because, like a beached whale, thay are hooked, motionless and helpless.

[@sarowie]

BitSmallX3 Well, it comes from poker. Whale is a poker therm for an player with a lot of cash, but no idea how the higher strategy work or some times even exist. They have plenty of money and think, that poker is essentially a luck based game. Most of us would be either a fish or a small fish on a table: Unexperienced but with limited cash. Now, the top rank is a Shark, a professional player that can make a living from playing poker. Those Sharks have no problem playing with the fishes - that brings their basic income. But when a whale arrives (big cash, no idea how to play), every shark wants a piece. Back to Free to Play: Draw your own connections. There is some connection between whales and sharks in F2P. The line is a bit more fuzzy then in poker. The whale still invests plenty of money, but he gets an advantage in the game. Sharks can exist in some form (EveOnline, where people pay for the subscription, but they can exchange that with in game currency), but don´t have to exist. An usally: Money just flows into the game (to the publisher), not between players (which is essential for poker).

[@HarrisonRocks]

BitSmallX3 Really? I'd heard it was a Moby Dick reference, the Casino's being Ahab and the Whales being the high-risk/high-win prize for the casino much like the elusive White Whale was (don't forget that the casino is risking a lot to accomodate them too, the whale can win big and cost the casino a fortune).

[@JackgarPrime]

If you ever work at an office where they make game working on some form of f2p model (I used to work on a certain old, but still running MMO with f2p features), you'll hear that word a lot.

[@gacorley]

Dead_Parade Most casino games are so much in the house's favor that there's really not a whole lot of risk involved if one player hits it big. And many of the "whales" will immediately put all their winnings down for another bit. The fact is, a lot of the whales in casinos are gambling addicts.

[@hankrearden20]

This might be controversial, but video games are not a right. It's a luxury, not an essential. It's sad that gaming companies see this as the future for games, but unless you can prove that a video game is vital to living, I really can't see much that can be done to change the situation.

[@thomasdr08]

James Estrada entertainment has been a cornerstone in humanity since the beginning. Video games are not vital, but integral

[@Red24DryBones]

James Estrada Video did clearly mentioned how f2p shouldn't be a charity. ☺ However, neither should f2p exist for the purpose of constant draining money from there player. Like casinos. Where the game becomes about spending money.

[@hankrearden20]

Red24DryBones Ah yes, and that is my point exactly. You can always chose not to go in the casino. And casinos exist whether you like them or not. I know how people may feel, liking something but at the same time feeling abused by the very thing that you like. How many people enjoyed Pokemon Go, or Clash of Clans but walked away from it becaused they realized it's true intent. Sad that the creators advocate this business model, and sad that the players feel alienated because of it, but short of putting a gun to somebody's head, I don't see how you could change this particular situation.

[@vladgina]

The whole point of this video is saying they should stop and explaining why. Your analogy, with the casinos... Yes, they exist, but they don't close down because everyone leaves (well maybe some do). Imagine if Casinos opened up, robbed their players until nobody goes anymore, then closes all within a few months. That doesn't happen and it should stop happening in the f2p world.

[@AbderrahmenBesbes]

watching this video after the "loot box question" one and i'm amazed how your point of you has changed about wales

[@cst1229]

One example i have is Pickcrafter. (though it's not particularly strong or anything) You can get through the game without spending a single penny. BUT... The Runic. Oh, the Runic. ONLY obtainable with money or the start of the game. And... You can only unlock 1 chest at a time. (seriously, why is there even an unlock system? And, unlocking chests take HOURS.) Wanna unlock more? "Unlock Now" chests, 10 Runic for each instant unlock. There's bosses in the game, but first you need to wait a specified amount of hours, then break like 750 blocks, THEN you can fight it. And they usually last like a minute. You can only skip the waiting time, costing Runic OR a lot of picks. EDIT: Maybe it applies to chest quests, maybe both, idk. I think actually some of the pickaxes are only found in premium chests, which cost 100's of Runic. You can buy blocks from the store. But only 50 every 12 hours! If you want to refill, either wait, spend an amount of picks that scales (it can reach billions and more), or 30 Runic. 2 special items in the shop (Recharge and Instant Mob), costing Runic. You can refund your skills in the skill tree, costing, you guessed it, Runic. And there's probably more. EXTRA: 100 Runic is 3$, so it's not really a strong F2P, and you can play through it without Runic (and so, paying), so it's kinda fair.

[@sergeyivanov4386]

5:33 "Blizzard" sadly didn't age well...

[@afonsotopa9164]

Ever heard about the 80/20 principle?? It's really interesting and I recommend anyone interested in this video to search for it I can't really explain it well, but the basis for this video would be that 80% of the companies income comes from 20% of your players

[@PocketDeerBoy]

One tactic i see a lot of free to play mobile games use is suggesting players review the game within the first 10-20 minutes of gameplay. They do this right after you’re bombarded with constant rewards, when upgrade timers take 30 seconds at best, when everything is still going fast. Obviously, the player will be in a good mood and will maybe give a good review. They make a player enjoy themselves purely so they can get promoted in the app store. After they ask you to review, enjoyment only ever goes downhill. Upgrade timers can reach into the days and it gets really tempting to buy that in-game currency to make it go fast again.

[@ninetails6218]

This was the downfall of Smash Monsters. A F2P mobile game on IOS and Android, but its long gone now. They lasted strong for 4 whole years, but hemorrhaged their player base after trying to appeal to whales. At the peak of the game they had a perfect system. A weekly event cycle that perfectly used the player’s time. The first day was the Gold event on Mondays, enticing you to farm as much Gold as possible, which was the free currency you gained from your base and attacking other bases. Then you had the Base building events on Tuesdays, and Wednesday was Experiments day. You spend the time upgrading your Lab’s tech tree. Then we get into the meat of the cycle. First, you’d sell any Platinum/Dark Matter rank monsters you had on Thursday to create Alpha. That Alpha was then used on Friday to generate more Plat/DM monsters. Then, on Saturday you’d train/transform these monsters and then use these newly formed monsters during the Gold event, where it all repeated. Everyone was happy with this, players could farm slowly but surely and be happy, and the whales had their OP Triple Blue Wolf teams. However, Thinking Ape wasn’t happy. They decided one day out of the blue in the summer of 2016 to wipe the slate clean and burn everything down. They announced that they would reset the servers, transferring none of our hard earned monsters or items, except Chem X and Gold. Out went Alpha, Slimes, everything. Monster duplicates were consolidated into higher level cards and the traditional generation method was replaced with card packs. This made everyone exceedingly mad. All of our time and money was wasted, and a lot of people left outright. But it got worse. So originally, everyone was happy with the exorbitant amount of Chem X. I, as a F2P competitive player, had easily 100k to my name. Some of the whales reportedly had millions. This was fine for us older players, but for newer players? They still had the old dingy 500~ totals. That worked well back in 2013 when the game first came out, but by this point 500 was the equivalent to a dip in the kiddy pool as the Chem X generator spiked to 500 for 10 rolls, and the shop never adjusted for this forced inflation, meaning 500 X was $25. And the pulls were comparatively ass. Since you couldn’t get doubles of monsters you only upgraded their card. But card upgrading as a means of leveling was slow and tedious, and you’d be better off at a certain point just dropping the generators and leveling up manually. The worst part? They replaced daily events with weekly events, giving away overly powerful unique monsters as prizes, meaning after the first week whoever had that monster had the best chance, and this all culminated into such a ruined experience the game, slowly but surely, hemorrhaged every player it had by April of 2018. The lesson to take away from this? Don’t rewrite everything about your game to try to leverage money. While they sorely needed an engine update ruining everything in the process wasn’t what they should have done. Adding in incentives such as extra mutagens was what they should have done, or cosmetic skins for the monsters. Not killing off F2P to try and overcharge whales, while robbing everyone of their goodies.

[@Rubisks]

I don't think hearthstone did a very good job on their F2P model. Buying a pack of cards is fun if you have none, but later on, buying a pack of cards and seeing 5 commons you already had just makes it feel like you wasted 2 bucks. Am I the only one seeing it that way? I love WG and RIOT doing it though. Especially LoL allows you to choose what you want to pay, and give you something in return

[@Parker8752]

To be fair, when you have more than two copies of a given card you can still use the crafting system to make better cards for yourself. Also, hopefully expansions after the first will be more frequent, so there will still be things to buy should you want to - or you can still just play for free should you choose to and just use gold earned from challenges to buy your booster packs.

[@DogginsFroggins]

How is locking a hero away in a moba better then locking a card away? You can at least craft the good cards.

[@Bluecho4]

This is, unfortunately, a problem this "pack" model inherited from the physical versions. And there's really no way to avoid that. Though, like the commenter above stated, you can craft your commons into better cards, something those who play physical TCGs can't boast.

[@pletter64]

The trick of a card game is to always have something right in front of your face that you want, but can only get with effort. Crafting makes these things possible

[@SirKickz]

I never buy card packs. I just buy arena runs. For almost the same price gold-wise I usually get a card pack in addition to a bunch of other stuff, provided I won at least 2 games or so.

[@auotukun872]

i love how the whale chase that poor f2p guy's account faaack lmao

[@hisenadedo]

They’re not squeezing money they’re introducing “surprise mechanics”

[@martinbartel6883]

It's not a nuclear bomb It's surprise Chernobyl

[@technicalleon]

Totally agree with this. More F2P games need to find ways to cater to the average spenders and not just the whales. I'm from a country where just getting USD20 is no joke. Sadly, some of the F2P games I play, especially mobile games, aren't even worth spending that much on because what I get isn't worth the money I paid.

[@wrosgar]

I'm happy that you brought up Grinding Gear Games. I have yet to see a more consumer friendly free to play model. There is absolutely NO gameplay content behind any pay walls what so ever. Even though I love League, it's not to the same level. Many of you will now argue for Valve doing it first. Let's be fair though, Dota was already a popular game and just by releasing something true to it's form they would have hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of players at launch. On top of that, they are already a powerful company who can take risks if needed. Grinding Gear Games did a very similar free to play model with Path of Exile(purely cosmetic purchases) with all of it's expansive content free up front. Not only that, but they were not a big proven studio, they started small over in Australia. I don't know how well their doing, but they've just released their second FREE expansion since launch and have been going for over a year. Something tells me they are doing just fine!

[@VonDelacroix]

They are from New Zealand, but yeah, I agree, they are doing awesome.

[@jamesryan099]

yup because people only look at stash tabs they dont like use them or anything purely cosmetic. good one bud.