French vs Russian harp technique

[@markowenmartin6760]

Great topic! Over here in the US, Salzedo is the one most harpists study. As did I. But I switched over to the Renie methodology and never looked back. The Salzedo method insists on keeping those elbows up like you are trying to fly away or something. Great upper body workout - if you want to be a football player. The best approach is to learn ALL the techniques and try them and see what works best for you to develop the best sound as well as best skill. Mix and match. Adapt. Some pieces have passages that work better for one technique and others for a different one. Just my opinion.

[@kuttelei]

great comment! i was also inclined to play salzedo style because i‘ve been watching tons of videos by american harpist but my teacher convinced me that it is a total waste of energy and you loose time. it‘s a question of aethetics and to anyone interested in that topic i can recommend the thesis „effective harp pedagogy“ - great comparison between the harp school (salzedo, french and russian) and you learn how they developed. salzedo is especially interesting here because it was all about how it looked and not so much about great technique really. my teacher said you had to be a really excellent harp player to pull it off - otherwise it’s just uncomfortable and pointless.

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

@@kuttelei Super interesting, thanks!

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Totally agree!

[@MarkHarmer]

One of my students calls that flapping arms technique “wafting cobwebs”. I think it’s a perfect description.

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

@@MarkHarmer 😂😂😂

[@harpsona]

Very interesting! I’m used to the French technique but I really have to give the Russian technique a try now! Thank you for putting this video together

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

You're welcome! Let me know how it goes with the Russian scale!

[@nonenoneonenonenone]

Russian "technique" is just a 19th century technique that never improved. Their repertoire is extremely limited, they overpull everything, and have very poor understanding of any music that isn't 19th-century Russian. Circling thumb before placing it is totally unnecessary.

[@jimbuxton2187]

What a FANTASTIC video! Thank you SO much for showing us the differences so clearly. Also I ADORE your very frank delivery. We have no doubts as to what you say or mean! You are a world treasure. I'm constantly trying to improve my technique and I struggle painfully with it. I have to not close all the way because my fingers are so long and strong I fight sounding harsh. (Although people love my technique and tone...I have to monitor every movement and sound. ) Since I love the harp so much I constantly try to improve. Thank you for all your informative and joyously heart felt opinions and demonstrations! Jxxx

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Thank you for all the compliments! I'm glad you find the videos useful. Have you ever heard of Italian harpist Anna Loro? She has the biggest hands and longest fingers ever, and she plays wonderfully...! x

[@jimbuxton2187]

@@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470 thank you I'll check her out! Now..what about the Russian downward scale? How does that differ? I now know the way up is different.....but down?....

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

@@jimbuxton2187 It doesn't differ, probably only with the timing of placing the thumb which is more structured...

[@Kat_K_]

Thank you for explaining and demonstrating the difference in French/Russian fingering for upward scale playing. Now I understand why the hand feels "loose" when crossing under with only finger 4. Can't wait to try this tomorrow! Thank you again, Chiara, for another insightful video. Ciao!

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Hope you find it useful! Let me know how it's going!

[@nervousharpist]

I am a Salzedo taught harp student. I would like to incorporate some Russian technique into my scales. Salzedo harpists are often misunderstood about elbow height and thumb height. Thumb should be high but not rigid, and and forearms are parallel to ground but elbow does not need to be high up to your shoulders!

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

From what I saw (e.g. Elizabeth Hainen) the mouvements of the arms look very artificial. Is there an explanation why they have to be always parallel to the ground? Very curious about it, because I cannot think of many advantages about it😐

[@nervousharpist]

@@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470 rather than flexing from the wrist, the elbow is used like a hinge, and tension is released in a different manner. Salzedo harpists rarely suffer from hand aches or injuries. Unfortunately if the method is taught incorrectly it can look very forced and be uncomfortable. When done correctly like Alice Giles or Yolanda Kondonassis or Mary Bircher, it results in good balance of aesthetics, round robust tone with the hands closing completely into the palms and injury free playing. The harmonics style is also very special (see poem of the little stars) I am not a professional like you, so I feel unqualified to tell you these things: Saul Davis Zlatkovski is the current expert academic of the Salzedo school and he will gladly tell you of the advantages and disadvantages of this method. I love you Chiara! Your videos makes me want to become a better and more rounded harpists with the best of all technique schools!

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

@@nervousharpist Thanks for all these information! I had a look at Mr. Saul Davis Zlatkovski's and Alice Giles position. They don't seem to keep the elbow extremely high- as I've seen in other players, and I've always wondered: how's the back? (more than a hand injury, I would think of the back being quite stiff!). What puzzles me though in their playing is this sharp mouvement upwards which happens very often, e.g. at the end of a phrase. I think it gives a weird accent which doesn't help if you want to play legato (!). But maybe I should have a lesson with Mr. Zlatkovski's to understand this technique better. About the harmonics, I know Salzed uses a different notation than usual and he played with the 5th on the strings etc., but I'm not sure either if they actually sound better...I franky admit that I'm skeptical!😶

[@nonenoneonenonenone]

Hainen is NOT a "Salzedo" harpist. She studied with Susann McDonald. The essence of Salzedo method is its naturalness. Look at Heidi Lehwalder's playing. @@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470

[@nonenoneonenonenone]

Salzedo did not use his 5th finger! Raising is to help project the soundwaves. Not raising at all blocks them and causes stiffness. If there is an accent, it is because it is musically appropriate. @@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470

[@reneem7739]

Thank you for this video. I was trained using the Salvedo Method. I hated it. I gave up on the harp the day I watched a harpist play who appeared to break every rule I was taught, but her playing was beautiful. I want to return to the harp, but this time I want a different technique.

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Awesome, I'm so happy for that. Yes, knowledge is power.

[@harpfreak]

Love this video! I honestly don’t know exactly what technique I’ve been using but seeing the way you do scales and the thumb circle, I guess my teacher was teaching me the Russian technique all along! Still use the French thumb technique more instinctively though!

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Cool! 😂💥🎼👍

[@randallfamily9636]

Wow thx

[@elizabethdexter3779]

Very interesting

[@robinmarks5638]

This is really good going to try the scales that way!! Thanks

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

You'll love it!

[@jackoneill8654]

Ciao Bella, and I love your signature

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Thanks!

[@corinnestandish4558]

One could not get much more French than Mr. Grandjany. He taught BOTH techniques with the thumb that you describe. Always very tricky to make so many generalizations. And about phrasing, who could say Alexander Boldachev does not, or Vera Dulova did not, pay such good attention to phrasing? Russians supposedly do not. But you see, nowadays with the communication that we have and multi-media, there is so much cross-cultural influence and study that the categorizations apply more to individuals than to nationalities or cultures. More so now than ever before.

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

I didn't know that Grandjany taught both technique, very interesting, thanks for writing it! Yes, we cannot generalize, in fact I put in "quotation marks" the words "french" and "russian". I've been in Moscow twice and I've heard a lot of russian harpists, also during masterclasses around the world. From my experience they have the tendency to play too fast. I was with Sasha in Zurich for our harp studies. He improved the phrasing a lot during these years.

[@nonenoneonenonenone]

Salzedo was equally French, as Grandjany, he studied with Hasselmans. He was not a great technician and denied having any "method." He did not pass on any specific technique to his students or many exercises. Some of his students imitated his double-jointed fingers but it was not a method. His students learned a lot of sight-reading and most of them played Broadway shows and free-lanced in general. Mostly, it was Salzedo students who had the highest-level classical work.

[@mateubaucasanso6405]

hello chiara could you write different harpists of each technique? thank you.

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Hi Mateu, I'm sorry I prefer not to point out at collegues technique. As a very general rule, you can analyse harpists who come from the geografic area that I mention for each kind of technique.

[@mn3702]

I had never heard of these different techniques before. Apparently, I have been using the French technique for the past almost twelve years. But I should really give the Russian technique a try, because I've found I really struggle with speed and ascending scales.

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Let me know how it goes! It's super good for speed!

[@mn3702]

@@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470 I haven't got used to it yet, so I still have to think when I want to use this technique. But when I do, it helps with my speed and ease on ascending scales. I should practice it more over the summer until it comes to me more naturally. I should also use it more when playing actual pieces, not just when practicing scales.

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

@@mn3702 Yes, try to incorporate in your pieces, but still practice it a lot on your technique training routine. It'll come more naturally after a while, but it'll take years to automatize it. Be patient and enjoy the process😄

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

@@mn3702 wow, awesome! I'm very happy for you! Well done!!!!

[@MarkHarmer]

I love this! And I love your videos. I’ve only just found them today, but you make me laugh so much and you convey so much fantastic information and experience. Thank you thank you thank you!

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Thank you, I'm glad you like them!

[@gutsandgrittv5076]

I love it. Wow you have opened up my world lol

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Haha I'm glad you find it interesting!

[@yikmowong5633]

Wow! How I missed it! Such an interesting and inspiring video, I should try that tomorrow (it's 1 am now here)!

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

😀😀how is it going? ...never watch videos before going to bed!🤨😉

[@reneerippe1287]

I studied Salzedo as a child and then studied under someone in college who showed me various technical approaches so I could find what fit best with my hands/body. The French technique reminds me a lot of the Salzedo technique for fingering in this video. The thumb comes over to rest on the top of the 2nd finger/knuckle, the movement for scales, etc. You can get a very clean and crisp sound from Salzedo because of the raised arms in my opinion. I find my pull on the strings to be greater when my elbows are up than when they are down, like I can use more of my arm strength in that position than if my elbows are down. Since studding in college under someone who didn't teach Salzedo I have relaxed my elbows some but not a ton. I think trying different techniques and finding the parts that work best for you is the best of all worlds. Salzedo was a very large handed man and so some things just do not translate into my very petite self and adopting things from other techniques is required.

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Thanks for sharing your experience! I only use the power of the fingers to get the sound, I never go too far away from the harp. I saw harpists using Salzedo and to me it seems so uncomfortable that I would be distracted from what I'm playing! (If I ever could play with such opened arms). I also find it weird that the right arm doesn't touch the soundboard. To me, it's a great help.

[@nonenoneonenonenone]

The problem with mixing teachings is that you get a mixed result. Salzedo is not just about how you play, but as you say, also your tone quality, and what you play, and how you perform it. Mixing never produces a better result. I would always rather see a pure "Grandjany" or "Salzedo" harpist than someone with a muddled approach. The funny thing is how universal raising has become, except only with the left hand and arm for so many people, whose right arms are still pasted to the harp and full of stiffness and limited sound. In the 1980s and earlier, you could not even hear the left hand play except with Salzedo players. Without admitting it, many teachers have "borrowed" from Salzedo teaching, such as closing the fingers quickly and completely all the time. But their placing is still usually messy and noisy, buzzy. Playing is really at a much lower level now overall, because no one has taken the time to learn to be a musician. They just play the strings, and play as fast as possible. Competitions are partly to blame for that.

[@nonenoneonenonenone]

You would not at all with proper instruction. There's no way touching the sounding board helps you. It's a crutch, a habit. You cannot move as freely, and your sound is constricted. Your audience will hear how you move. Like any computer, you get a result from what you put into it.@@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470

[@AtlantaHarpistCatherineRogers]

Interesting and very helpful

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Great, glad you like it!

[@Y_H_Dordt]

Very interesting, thank you for this video!

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

You're welcome! Glad you like it!

[@richardallen2926]

Thank you for this Chiara! The differences are interesting, but I think it’s so much more complex. Within the so-called ‘French’ school there are a million different approaches with different positions and articulations from one teacher to another. People from a more Renié heritage might play quite differently from those with a more Tournier background, same for Jamet, same for Laskine/Lorenzini. So fascinating!!! I love the Russian scale fingering, that was a game changer for me too! I’d love to hear more about this :)

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Hi Richard, I totally agree with you, in fact this is just a brief introduction video, I put "in brackets" the word *french* and *russian* just because they're so many variations about these words. I spoke only about the 2 biggest technical movements that I find they're very different. As for the rest....we could do a million of videos about it and we still wouldn't be finished with the topic!

[@nonenoneonenonenone]

Lorenzini had the best tone quality of any French harpist I have ever heard, which means she plays like a student of Lucile Lawrence, but I have not heard any pupil of hers match her tone color.

[@LastDaysIntercessors]

Wow, this is very helpful! 👍

[@fantasticfoodandfast]

Grazie mille!

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Prego!

[@fantasticfoodandfast]

@@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470 so interesting! I ve tried to play the scale the Russian way but it feels so uncomfy! I got looong fingers and a basis in HRenie,then Grossi + some Salzedo elbow tips (chest opener). I m not a professional i play for pleasure.when I listen to very old records I wonder always if we are able to understand their techniques properly.. life today and body posture especially is so so different from 70y ago and more.. grazie again for ur sharing (o dimenticato molto il mio Italiano..) 🙏🏼💓

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

@@fantasticfoodandfast continua a suonare con piacere e gioia!😀

[@fantasticfoodandfast]

@@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470 💓💓💓

[@charlespeery6591]

Regarding placement on the "Russian" style scales: You know how there are exercises to perfect the French way of doing this? Like play 4-3-2-SKIP1 and play only 4 of the next placement? Or Play 4-3-2-1-PLACE 4 but don't play it, instead play 3 of the next placement? Are there similar exercises for the Russian placement? I can't even synthesize them on my own, I'm so used to doing it only one way. I have always felt unstable on the turnarounds (harp is my secondary instrument and I started in middle age.) The Russian way of doing it makes me feel so much more secure, except that I can't do it, haha.

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

You'll get there! You can place 432 earlier in the French technique as well. It really helps. I do 4,3 SKIP214321. It's just a matter of getting used to it...

[@laragarner7920]

Hi Chiara, can you explain the Russian scale technique a little more please? maybe do a slow motion and explain in greater detail. I think I see you placing the 3rd and 4th together under before playing the 2nd. I tried that and it seems really strainful. But I can manage to do it right before playing the thumb. Its not comfortable. Does it become more comfortable with practice? You said it changed your life and, of course, you play beautifully, so I am really interested in this. p.s. I really enjoy your videos and I learn a lot. Thanks for taking the time to make these for us!

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Hi Lara, yes I will do it. Anyway, it's correct. You play 4th, 3rd and then you place these 2 fingers under the 2nd and 1st. It does become easier with practice, don't worry!

[@kuttelei]

*no kiss for her* 🤣🤣🤣 LMAO

[@dahlrussell]

A lot of us have one teacher that gets no kiss! 🤣

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

...no comment! I had 4 teachers overall, 2 of them destroyed me!🤦‍♀️😑😑

[@kuttelei]

@@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470 so glad I'm not the only one. My first teacher (the one that never tuned her harps) taught me the wrong technique (or rather no technique at all, she never noticed my mistakes or bad habits - now i have to learn everything from scratch). no kiss for her, either!!! (I will complain about her overall terribleness another time) lol

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

@@kuttelei 😱😱😱😱😱😱

[@mzelk995]

thank you for this explanation! my concern for the russian technique of closing/not closing the thumb is it seems like in excess would lead to injury. it seems like something you should only do in moderation?

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

No, no injuries, as long as you relax your thumb after playing (I do it with "resting" on the knuckle of the 2nd finger or else through the "little circle").

[@purplestringsmariamichelac3391]

Ciao!! Oh mio dio, non avevo idea si potessero preparare in anticipo così invece di fare perno solo sul 4° o sul pollice!!! Non sapevo che in Russia facessero così, eppure per qualche mese ho fatto lezione con una solista del Teatro Bolshoj di Mosca, ma non mi ha mai corretto niente. Super interessante, grazie! E il pollice, l'ho sempre piegato anch'io. La mia insegnante ci teneva molto: piegare il pollice fino a toccare il secondo dito... Usavamo il Grossi... Ricordi d'infanzia... :-D

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

...si vede che suonavi già bene e l'arpista russa non riteneva necessario "correggerti!"😊 Sì il pollice a cerchio proprio non mi va giù, e comunque la tecnica Grossi è ottima...fra l'altro è francese, visto che Maria Grossi era studentessa di Luigi Maurizio Tedeschi che a sua volta era studente di Godefroid a Parigi...e il cerchio (francese e italiano) si chiude!

[@purplestringsmariamichelac3391]

@@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470 bene, ora so grazie a te che ho studiato con la tecnica francese :-D Ne approfitto per dirti che trovo super stimolante il tuo canale, sei bravissima!

[@purplestringsmariamichelac3391]

@@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470 gliel'ho chiesto e mi ha detto che l'aveva notato subito e che sì, in effetti "non è molto corretto secondo la nostra pratica", ma non ha ritenuto valesse la pena farmelo notare dal momento che ero già formata e che ci stavamo concentrando sulla preparazione per un matrimonio

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

@@purplestringsmariamichelac3391 ...Puoi sempre lavorarci se lo ritieni utile! A me ha aiutato ENORMEMENTE per la velocità ed uguaglianza del suono. Però non è effettivamente indispensabile, si può suonare molto bene anche senza...

[@morgantraynor2444]

How do you do the turnaround on the top of the scale to go back down in the Russian technique?

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Good question! Quite easy: just place the thumb practically at the same time as your 3rd finger is playing. I hope it's clear!

[@morgantraynor2444]

@@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470 What if the scale is only one octave? 4(Do) 3(Re) (cross) 2 (Mi) 1 (Fa) (cross) 4(So) 3(La) 2(Ti) ?? 1(Do) ??? 2341234. Do you finish plucking La, then pluck ti while placing 3+4 back down? Or do you place 234 back down at the same time you pluck 1 at the top of the scale?

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

​@@morgantraynor2444 kzbin.infoCXQJLngiqc8?feature=share I made a short to explain better!

[@MrPolystrum15]

Really love your hair...❤

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

cotton candy!😂😂

[@CarolBrobst]

Amazing ! I'm so so jealous of harpists with big hands, I started harp as an adult, and was overjoyed when I discovered I didn't need to use the pinky finger on harp. My pinky finger on violin was always a challenge. Then when starting harp I realized my thumb is so short ! >_< Now I see your hands look just as small as mine and it gives me courage ! I will definitely try the Russian scale trick. I always hated the 4-1 crossover, it did feel so weak and I didn't know what to do about it. Thanks for this video !

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

I've seen harpists with much smaller hands even than mine which are correctly not big at all, and they play wonderfully! And yes, not using the pinky finger is a relief, it's just an obnoxious finger...😉

[@jimbuxton2187]

Small hands excell on the Harp! You can fit much better at the top of the harp without having to change your hand angle! Big chords will be challenging but scales and passage work will be very easy for you...!

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

@@jimbuxton2187 True, although for big chords is really a struggle...Anyway, I've seen harpists with big hands being fantastic, they can put their hand compact for scales and passages and they make absolutely no effort for big chords. I need to stretch my fingers regularly in order to play them!

[@richardgleichmann7671]

Mom used the cross over (or as you put it Russian scale technique).. She took a few lessons from Lilly Laskine as well., (when we were stationed out side of Paris).. Mom and Uncle Stanley's teacher was Czech, (Kajetan Attl.., of the SanFrancisco Symphony).. I like Emily Granger's technique's.. (I really think she is AWSOME..!!! She was in Chigago.. and she is now in Sydney Australia.. Check her out..👍).. I like the harpist for the Czech Pilharmonic .. (she's good too 👍). Thanks always for your instruction.., and for "keeping it real"..🎶❣👍

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Very interesting about your mum, lucky to get lessons with Laskine! I don't know Kajetan Attl, I checked out Emily Granger, she's very good although she could muffle a bit more. Who's the harpist of the Czech Philarminic? Thanks for this interesting names!

[@richardgleichmann7671]

Will get you the name for the check to harmonic heart player but she's really good it's on my Facebook post you'd have to scroll down a ways though but there's a nice 10 minute concert that she does Private concert. PS I'm voice texting at work. Have a good one.

[@richardgleichmann7671]

Jana Bouskova, is the harpist with the Czech Philharmonic.. The Czech Phil.. is just a great orchestra..(top notch..👍). Pianist Yuja Wang (sp?), just completed a season with them last year.. (she is amazing..).. By the way, the reason you had likely not heard of Mr. Attl, (my uncle and my mother's teacher), is that he likely retired from San Francisco in the 1940's or early 1950's.. Uncle Stanley (Chalouopka), became 1st harpist in Los Angeles in the early 1940's ('42 I believe)...

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

@@richardgleichmann7671 Ah yes Jana Bouskova is very well known, I've never had the pleasure to listen to her live, just in some recordings. From what I've heard, she plays just a bit too fast for my taste. You seem to be surrounded by a family of great harpists!

[@davidtrapp2157]

One comment i have found utterly true. Most people play too fast. As for the French and the Russian techniques, I know virtually nothing about either school. Maybe it's because I play Celtic harp, but that not really a good excuse.

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

Our life is a learning path!

[@user-nm6dr4uy3d]

In other words, the Russian technique is intuitive and natural, while the French technique is a little religious.

[@chiarapedrazzettiarpatelie6470]

No, I wouldn't say so! 😸