From The Dead Sea Scrolls to the Historical Jesus | Dr. James D. Tabor

[@History-Valley]

👉Link to the course: historyvalley--pursuit4knowledge.thrivecart.com/dss/

[@integrationalpolytheism]

20:00 this is a weird assumption to make, about "mythers". I can see plenty of reasons to make up a hiatorical Jesus, but not many come to mind why somebody would make up the righteous teacher, much less forge documents written by him. Why would you just assume that those who are not convinced that Jesus was a hiatorical character are also going to knee jetk make a similar claim about this other guy? Are you really just making the assumption that "mythers" are so clueless and credulous that they just claim that everybody didn't exist, without discrimination or real understanding? If so, that's surprisingly uninformed. I've heard Dr Tabor talking about the dead Sea scrolls many times on KZbin, and never before heard him talking like this about "mythers". Was this a specific request for him to talk about this on History Valley? Are there really people claiming that this righteous teacher didn't exist, or is this a strawman? If such people exist, I think it far more likely that they would be christians, since they just deny anything is true if it doesn't fit their paradigm.

[@integrationalpolytheism]

33:00 that's an interesting characterisation. So are you saying that those commenting who disagree with the guests are all conspiracy theorists and abusers? That seems like you must have misspoke, since your guests often disagree quite wildly with even each other (as Dr Tabor goes on to say in reply to your comment). Personally I would be very suspicious of a philosophy that prioritised agreement over healthy discourse. Then again, perhaps I am just one of those abusive conspiracy theories commenters, worthy only of being ignored...

[@ObjectiveEthics]

It is such an honor to hear Mr Tabor offer his insights into the history of the Jewish and Christian religions. As always Jacob does an excellent job with his interviews. Jacob is very intelligent but he never talks over his guest. He allows his guests to share their knowledge without interruption.

[@riley02192012]

It makes me sad that people have to be so negative and nonsensical in KZbin and Social Media comments. The Internet has been wonderful with connecting people and allowing people access to Scholars and knowledge that they would never have access to otherwise. But it has also encouraged and normalized bad behaviors and unhealthy decisions and habits. Thank you for pushing through all that, Jacob. I love Dr. Tabor. He has always been one of my favorite scholars to listen to. ❤

[@ElkoJohn]

Thank you Jacob for allowing Dr.Tabor to share his stream of consciousness with us. You are the best listener host for your many guests. Your are both ' 'Wise like a serpent and Innocent like a dove' '

[@br1qbat]

Dr. Tabor is always a treat. Easy to listen to, packed with info, and presented in a digestible and well explained way. ❤

[@haze1123]

I love Professor Tabor. Thanks 👍

[@oldernu1250]

Thanks for the insights. Couple thoughts: 1) Remember Tulip mania and madness of crowds, applied to Messianic movements 2) Philo the Alexandrian Hellenized Jewish philosopher must have been aware of Essenes and Messianic thoughts. Perfectly placed to translate thoughts to gnostic Greeks.

[@trapperkcmo3460]

"the kingdom of heaven is inside of you" JC

[@gusgus1816]

24:40 "Its just a literary motif" thats pretty awesome that this man hits a point that people raaarrely get - that these stories come about bcuz they're things that have happened again and again in difft places and times, and aren't necessarily literally true, but they've also happened many times. The idea is more important than one instance of the literal happening/ the message is more important than the messenger. I feel like thats very accurate

[@waclawberent]

Thanks, professor. I did two courses. Dead sea and mark they awesome. Worth every penny

[@vikingdemonpr]

I'm always happy when he refers to Dr. Eisenman. They might not agree on all points of their hypotheses but they seem to part from the same line of thought. Their stuff on James the Just/Brother of Jesus is fascinating

[@Ken_Scaletta]

That's why it's good to listen to a wide variety of scholars. None of them are always right and none of them are always wrong. It's good to get every perspective and draw your own conclusions. Even a poor scholar might make a good point or observation. Even a good scholar might have a blind spot.

[@Mikeatthenet]

Tabor is one of the best guys you interview regulary. Almost all videos you made with him are interresting, full of facts, not full of wild speculations and balanced! BTW: Obviously the Dead Sea Scrolls are forged….like 2200 years ago… 😂… If your beard needs a shave..use Occams Razor! I really hope noone believes Dead Sea scrolls are fake!

[@mcosu1]

Talpiot tomb and Jesus dynasty are a bit out there

[@geraldamos292]

These scrolls say NOTHING of jesus..nothing

[@centroeducativoshoresh]

Very good job, I am new to your channel, but this is great stuff.

[@Dawahdude0]

Great Channel High quality academic and authentic content

[@salort2934]

HIV is one of my favorite channels, Jacob does good interviews.

[@eddiemartin1671]

Great 👍

[@dunk_law]

the dead sea scrolls in english, 1962, vermes. This was a classic of its time.

[@Scott-et4kd]

Tabor can be summed up with his pet expression, "Maybe, it could be "

[@rumidilla8162]

Hi from Bronx NY Love this material Aiming at taking this course ASAP Look forward to more Thank you for your time and energy

[@victoriahigman6802]

What about the book of James? I’m told it’s written even before Paul’s letters?

[@jericosha2842]

Encouraging to hear Tabor talking positively about the viewers or "questers." It starts to feel pretty lonely cuz it's alienating me from my family and friends.

[@richardalexander8264]

I really love Dr. Tabors work but in this instance, I wish Mr. Berman could have been allowed to contribute a little more dialogue. Most interviews are a two way production.

[@Thor-Orion]

2:56 I mean… isn’t James the Just’s real name Jacob Zedek, Jacob the Righteous? I know James wants these scrolls to be preceding Jesus, but a bunch of them are highly likely to be contemporaneous. I adore Dr Tabor, he’s one of my favorite presenters on this platform, and he’s brilliant. But I agree with the people that think James the Just is one of the teachers. I agree with Freund that there was likely a founding teacher in the second century bc, then John the Baptist or James the Just, who would have been contemporaries and in different places, but it’s honestly hard for me to really determine which I think it’s more likely to be, because if you look up maps of Qumran and compare it to John the Baptist locations, it’s VERY close to the location he Baptized Jesus. Like almost on top of it; the northern shore of the Dead Sea. I could also get into my personal theory that the Theudas mentioned by Josephus is Judah Thaddeus, and that he may in fact be historical Jesus, but i don’t want to get called names for ruffling feathers. I know you have had guests on who assert some of the things I’m saying here, and they’ve been very compelling, as is James Tabor, I just think he doesn’t want to involve himself in such a controversial topic of discussion, which is why he mostly focuses on the earliest teacher of the Dead Sea Scrolls and focusing his James the Just efforts in other places. But his focus on James leads me to think that he may personally believe that James is one of the figures mentioned in the Scrolls. He studied them for SO long, and he’s been on some of the most important excavations related to early Christianity. I really don’t want to presume too much, and I certainly don’t want to put words in his mouth, because I have immense respect for him. I would love to have a private conversation with him about it though, because he’s such a wealth of insight. Love your work! This is one of my favorite channels and I’m glad I found you!

[@Thor-Orion]

4Q521 “Messianic Apocalypse” is dated to 49bc-116ad, 1QH “Thanksgiving Scroll” is dated to 47bc-118ad 4Q171 “Psalms Commentary” Is dated to 3ad-126ad 4Q22 “paleo exodus” is dated to 203bc-83 ad 1QS “Community Rule” is dated to 203bc-122ad 11Q19 “Temple Scroll” is dated to 166bc-67ad 1QApGen “Genesis Apocryphon” is dated to 89bc-118ad 4Q266 “Damascus Document” is dated to 44bc-129ad Most of these listed are over twice as likely to be from the first century AD as they are the first century BC and only 2 are dated to before the first century bc at their oldest possible dating.

[@Thor-Orion]

These are carbon 14 dating estimates, with 95% accuracy, margin of error of less than 100 years plus/minus and some are much smaller margins of error with 30-40 years plus/minus. Psalms commentary is +/- 23 years.

[@eddieveloz3324]

Have anyone else noticed that the sun calendar for the essenes and Aztec/Toltec long count calendar are almost a match. Both believe in a masonic figure coming soon.

[@johndutchman]

We cannot have a Gap gap . Mr. President . .

[@mikehoehn1475]

I thought the old testament was all allegory. That is what the apostle Paul said. Am I wrong about this ??

[@jericosha2842]

That's an interpretive method seen by some rabbis, the earliest Christian patristics, and can be argued that Paul did the same.

[@HenryPolen4890]

Who’s the thick book’s author?

[@brucehare1548]

Paul was a Roman collaborative who infiltrated the Essenes and betrayed James the Just. The Roman ideal of leaders and hierarchy was not to be tampered with as opposed to communal brotherhood of the Yahwists.

[@willempasterkamp862]

Paul = the Just

[@David-j8v5p]

'Rabbi Singer thinks that what he's doing is saving people. Well he just started a war.' Reverend Jesse Duplantis says

[@dianastevenson131]

I thought the first messiah was Cyrus the Persian. He allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the Temple. He sounds very wise and righteous.

[@humbleopulence]

Moré tsedek does not mean the right teacher, as in the right or proper or correct teacher. It literally means either teacher of justice or teacher of righteousness. If it was what dr tabor claimed, it'd be moré tsodek

[@willempasterkamp862]

the eloquent speaker (teacher) = bene dictus (in latin) = Mercurius (the messenger)

[@chana5770]

Tzedek is justice. Could it be Tzadek which means holy?

[@humbleopulence]

@chana5770 no, righteous man is Tzadik. צדיק. Holy is kadosh - קדוש More zedek is "teacher righteousness" or, because those two are attached, tzedek becomes "OF righteousness" But again, tzedek is also justice, and tzdaka is charity. So this word can be played with, but not to the extent you propose

[@chana5770]

@@humbleopulence I read that the Sadducees derived their name from that of Zadok, the first high priest of Israel. Could the leader be from that line?

[@humbleopulence]

@chana5770 the essenes derive from the Hasidim, the pious ones driven into the Wilderness after the Maccabees took power and betrayed their cause of Freedom for Judea for politics. If i call some one a more tzedek, i do not mean to imply he is connected to Zaddok the High Priest, but that the Teacher teaches a doctrine of Justice, or that he teaches the road to it. It is far likelier that Zaddok was named thus after the fact, to be an archetype of Justice, and because he is the first High Priest in the Temple of Solomon, who is righteous among Kings, therefore it is proper to call this first High Priest by a righteous name, hence - Zaddok

[@macroman52]

Every sect has its Judas -That's an interesting thought from Dr Tabor. It brings to mind the Nation of Islam, with Elijah Mohammed in the Jesus role, and Malcolm X playing Judas.

[@sebolddaniel]

They are actually both in the same room

[@David-j8v5p]

Rabbi Singer: 'Christian's want it all am I right?! Ahhh hooo ahhh!'

[@michaelbernard7402]

Really what about this below and what did Daniel say the time of the Gentiles must fulfilled Joel 3:10 King James Version 10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. Joel 3:9-12 King James Version 9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord. 12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round abou

[@0861USMC]

So there's a possibility that Jesus the person read and used the scrolls to become one of the Messiahs.

[@charlesbadrock]

Mythology is very powerful in the human psyche

[@norbertjendruschj9121]

Call me pedantic but it is myth, not mythology that stirs the human psyche.

[@charlesbadrock]

@@norbertjendruschj9121 Same thing you got the point

[@Darisiabgal7573]

This idea Tabor presents, you know I listen to all of his 24 lectures on christian messianic expectations, but for me its really a niche interest. Its good to here the different ideas put in their context. But christianity IMO and fundementalism is cooked. The fundementalist movement for a time wheb it could attract from other christian faiths, but now those have so declined in numbers and people are leaving evangelical christianity and they are not believing anything. So that is like an overcooked argument. The argument over Jesus, as someone put the other day, you could study jesus for 1000 mire years but you would not learn anymore than the few tidbits about Jesus. And we also have the 'greeks did' people whi thinks moses foreskin was chopped off by a greek knife, 'you know that all the themes in the OT are greek'. Again, the greeks were first to enter the bronze age collapse, they lost their written language. Even among their best early thinkers, Homer and the like, their ideas about god are all over the place. More over if you really ask the question, where did this theology come from . . .Anatolia, Minoan, Cyprus, Syria, Palestine and then we wave our hands a bit about indoeuropean stuff. The greek alphabet came from phonecian traders, with the alphabet and the teaching of languages how can you prove something is greek when so much of the pattern of civilization comes from the East. Ask you self the question, if greek thoughts were so formative and great, what gods did the sea peoples follow and how do they compare with classical greek religion. Again I think this is a hype paint job. Back to James, I really could not care less about the talpiot tomb or the other burial claims. If you've got 3 or for different tombs claiming to be the Jesus family tomb, then you know at least two of them arent, probably all three. And does it matter, not really. Seriously. So I listen to alot of these things to support the presenter, but alot are not going in what i think is a meaningful direction. Here are the problems. 0. What was ancient belief in agency like? 1. Formative city state religion - when and why did temple culture come about?. 2. When and why did the gods develop human personalities. 3. How did mysticism fit into early temple life? 4. When and what were the first Arc gods, why did the fall out of favor. 5. why the Sky god and Heaven? 6. What structurally brought about the rise of Power/War gods, why are they generally short lived and go through replacement cycles. 7. The so called mystery religions, whispers from the past, when did elective belief come to be and what are the earliest origins of later mystery cults. 8. What is so mystical about the vedas, how did they develope. 9. What is the origin of Zoroastrianism and Mithrism. What were these early beliefs like. 10. What is the belief legacy left by the following cultures a. Kura-Araxas Culture b. IVC c. BMAC d. Hattic e. Hittite and Luwian f. South Arabian and Ethiopian religion. g. Hurrian and Urarte h. Middle Euphratean. i. Minoan 11. State religions of Dynasties, most of which never lasted more than a few generations. 12. Assyrian Royal Cult, decision making and belief. 13. The yehud and rebirth of the Jewish scribal culture. 14. Religious life and evolution under the Persian Empire. 15. The history of the collapse (last two decades) of Persia and the exchange of culture and ideas in a blended constantly moving Persian Army. 16. The inscription history of the Hebrew bible, generally. 17. Comparable texts of the period.

[@memyself3712]

❤I studied Jesus. Had to 3 sources. One was the 5 books of Josephus. The other was the lost Books of the Bible. Finding the 2 Jesus . One was before our Jesus. He was crucified. And never rose. I studied the names from the trials. Caiaphas was a Roman. He married the daughter of the priest. He was Roman! His father was Roman. This was what Jesus was talking about. Wolves in sheep's clothing. We still have that. 😢

[@ManuelGonzalez-ur6ss]

Jacob sorry to bother but are those books paid for ? 😮

[@Mikeatthenet]

It’s one of those virtual backgrounds. I can see Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, Lord of the Rings and a collection of Narnia-books, all wonderful books, in the upper right… 😉

[@ManuelGonzalez-ur6ss]

@@Mikeatthenet Oh I thought he was a well read man 🤓

[@Darisiabgal7573]

"Im onna go with failed" OMG, 😱 let it not be so.😂

[@winstonbarquez9538]

Striking the shephered and scatering the sheep is from Zechariah.

[@shanejohns7901]

If Philo knew about this Jesus figure, he'd have surely paid a visit. As for the people who supposedly knew the savior, then they died off and had kids that only heard the stories... I just don't buy that either. What is the evidence that anyone contemporaneous with Jesus existed? I heard a mother discussing about the time her 6 year old came to her asking for the truth about Santa. It's an interesting conundrum. Do you ruin the magical nature of Christmas for them? Well, if they still believe in Santa by the time they're in high school, it's clear you've taken it too far. The mother brought up another conundrum -- the older siblings know Santa isn't real. But do they play along to carry that magical moment forward a bit further? What's going on there psychologically? Lying to someone in your family to allow them to enjoy a magical phase of their existence for as long as possible -- what is that? A white lie? Or do you just help 'lead them to believe' by aiding and supporting the societal myth wherever you can insert yourself as a parent? I think you will form a better relationship with your children if you never lie to them. You can get away with intentionally misleading them by saying you were just carrying on the Christmas Spirit. But when they start putting things together in their young rational minds, I just think it's abusive to mislead them further. I'd like to know just how long Tabor would imagine it would take to finalize a book about a mythical figure such as Jesus, assuming that he didn't exist? I doubt it would be done very quickly. It would be refined, likely over multiple generations. So the fact that we find parts of the Jesus story in the Dead Sea Scrolls doesn't surprise me at all. It's a type of mytho-history in a pre-psychology age. The archetypes are more likely to just be archetypes, rather than an archetype that actually instantiated in flesh and blood -- the imagined 'perfect' instantiating in an otherwise imperfect world.

[@Thomasw540]

Jesus's prophecy in Mark 13 didnt fail and He made it in 33 CE, just before His arrest. ' This prophecy was captured by Cornelius in the Gospel of Mark after his debriefing of Peter in Acts 10. Cornelius was the senior centurion in the 10 Legion which occupied the Galilee, and Pilate's Command Sergeant Major and Chief of Staff in Caesarea, He was either seconded from the Italian Cohort of the Praetorian Guard and the core cadre of the Christian Fellowship in the Roman Legons. By the time Saul was struck blind on the road to Damascus, all the soldiers in the Legions were Christians. The original euangelion was prepared by Pilate and sent to Tiberius as cited by Tertullian in his Apology. Mark 15:1 - 16:8 us a summary of that original intelligence report, and is accurately represented by the Gospel of Peter, which is Peter's stump speech which Cornelius conveyed to him in the three days he and Peter spend together off-stage of Acts 10, Where else could Peter have acquired the details in the Gospel of Peter. Jesus disappeared from the sight of the Jews when He was remanded to Roman chain of custody. Jesus was not an Apocalyptic prophet, His mission, in Jerusalem was the same as Jonah's to Nineveh to prevent an Apocalypse, The Temptation in the Wilderness was a continuation of the interview between God and The Satan in The Book of Job, Jesus and The Satan as to the prospects of Jesus success in preventing the Apocalypse. The Satan claimed that Jesus would have to perform a miracle like the feeding of the 5000 and the 4000,; create a new religion; and perform a defying stunt. like raising Lazarus, Jesus side of the wager was that he would be able to convince Jerusalem to repent with the same intellectual appeal to Jewish legalism like Paul will do as recorded in Acts and in his Epistles. The reason why Jesus wept in John 11:35 is because He knew that Satan had won the wager and He was destined for the Cross. Jesus's cry of “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” is a three cushion carrom from the Cross to Psalm 22 to the Temptation in the Wilderness to the Book of Job. The fact is tat Jesus's crucifixion was God's atonement for God's abuse of Job resulting from being tricked by The Satan. Twice. If you are a Buddhist, the Resurrection is the Universe's way of saying "Hi!" Paul proceeds from the basis of the euangelion Peter cites in Acts 15:7, which is a reference to the Gospel of Peter. Pual cites this euangelion 19 times in his Epistles. The number 19 is the Alpha and Omega of Number and Numerology in the Mind of God. Sura 74:30 :Above it is Nineteen" validates the divine origins of the Meccan suras in the Koran and is the clearest portrait of the mind of The One in literature. Jimmy, your entire schtick, along with the Jesus Seminar, is an exercise in applied anachronism. It's like Richard Carrier is constantly saying things like "If I was God, I would have done things in this rational manner" and your commentary is just larded with similar subjective observations that reflect the way you would have done things. Jewish Scholars presenting Josephus assume from his commentary about John the Baptist that he was connected with the Essenes, with none of the angst and tormenting the details you and the Jesus Seminar require. By the time Luke and Paul get to Caesarea, Cornelius is the curator of Quelle he derived from the intelligence files of the 10 Legion. Mark 1:4 - 8 is a summary of the contents of Josephus's portrait of John the baptist, both of which derived from Quelle.

[@gsr4535]

So, what is the purpose of Christianity? In other words, the basic premise is what? Believe in Jesus (meaning the Resurrection) and you will live forever as a disembodied “essence” floating in another dimension (Heaven). What does one do FOREVER? That’s a long time. After you re-unite with your dead family and friends, which would be wonderful, what do you do FOREVER? Is there food to enjoy? Sex? Baseball? What? And once again, the “Asian question”…… most human beings today and all throughout history were Asian (Chinese and Indian). Most never heard of Christianity and of course most in the past and today, are not Christians. Why would God’s plan be Jesus in Palestine/Israel and leave out most of the rest of humanity? Makes zero sense to me but I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[@brucehare1548]

The Law benefitted the Poor. That's why it was destroyed by Paul and assoc. Paul was rich.

[@willempasterkamp862]

Huqoq Alexander (elephant) mosaic depicts the battle between poor and rich

[@gsr4535]

@@willempasterkamp862 Sounds silly

[@gsr4535]

@@willempasterkamp862 Sounds like silly nonsense. Irrelevant to me.

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

You are smarter than you look!

[@humbleopulence]

I dont see why Christianity as we have it today cant just have started out as some Essene breakaway sect. Most of their beliefs, practices and appearance even are shared by Jesus to a ridiculous extent. Rven their vegetarianism and barefoot appearance! Not to mention bring dressed all in white... And that's just the appearance, folks! Essenes also had proselytizers in every village. The head of such a group was called a mevaker - an overseer. Why cant jesus have been such a man?

[@James-ll3jb]

Tabor fails to embrace how utterly scant the evidence for an historical Jesus really is.

[@norbertjendruschj9121]

I am right in my guess, you read Richard Carriers book "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt" ?

[@willempasterkamp862]

1.30 + 1.30 = 3.00 hous of video on a guy that never existed ; OUCH !

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

Of course he did not exist. someone else left those strange images of a crucified corpse on a bloody cloth. . .(LOL)

[@antoinettevorhees2997]

This is fake 😮 video

[@thhseeking]

Looks pretty real...

[@hajiabdulrahman3105]

Messiah is Muhammad even Jesus had said this.

[@James-ll3jb]

BS😅

[@timmansfield3935]

As a self described Christian Rationalist cannot fathom the ignorant discourse around the work of the late Barbara Thiering. Her findings and conclusions are irrefutable and make way for a more truthful intelligent debate around both Christianity and Islam. All the so called experts are simply being arrogantly belligerent to protect their egos at the expense of the survival of true loving teachings of the great Jesus the Man and David King.