FSD Supervised v12.5.4 - Unprotected Left Turns

[@dhruvsarang7636]

The rear end was definitely sticking out to the point which even made me uncomfortable. Overall, great decision making. As you mentioned, the next big test would be with smaller gaps in order to better understand decision making.

[@qqleq]

Most uncomfortable I have been for a long time with these unprotected lefts...

[@paulmeynell8866]

@@qqleqI think it looks worse on camera because of the filming angle , needs a downward facing rear camera to see exactly where it is.

[@Randommemers]

@@paulmeynell8866I agree with you.

[@shdmd2118]

@@qqleqI am less comfortable with the Ukrainian/somali/chinese/irish/ uber driver

[@fflodeiro]

I think the car stayed within the limits of the lane, the camera angle creates a wrong perception

[@davidwebb2337]

Agree about comfort with butt sticking out. A few of those cars definitely swerved a bit. This seems fixable with angling in better. Surprised Tesla hasn’t tweeked that yet.

[@ChuckCook]

they have tweaked it over and over. Not sure why it went away.

[@bluetoad2668]

​@@ChuckCookI'm betting that Tesla isn't sure either, that's got to be tricky to fix with end to end NN

[@fflodeiro]

@@bluetoad2668 I think Cybertruck will teach the NN

[@CyberDude76]

Good to see FSD is still improving. I agree that the 'question mark approach' to median would be needed. But good job Tesla AI team!

[@rendezone]

It just takes one distracted driver to hit your tail ever so slightly for a massive scare, so I agree that sticking out isn’t ideal. Can the cameras see enough to determine the width of the median and know if it’s necessary to do the question mark approach? I think the path planner is finding the best compromise it can, but let’s see if there is a better way the AI team can come up with. In my honest opinion, this median isn’t wide enough and they should take out one lane of that side to make it wider. Contracting and expanding the amount of lanes is a very common road engineering approach 😊

[@FullyFledged]

Just wanted to say thanks for being so consistent in testing every release . Much appreciated!

[@Maustah]

Feels like you could have intervened those times with the butt sticking out. If 2 cars would be next to each other while trying to pass you (not being able to swerve), then 1 car has to hit the brakes pretty hard not to crash into you. Tesla needs to receive this data.

[@George2647g]

AGREED!

[@TheRajmoney]

Much improved, yet that's scary back of the car is crossing the line. If somone on their phone or distracted could hit it.

[@adron115]

7:03 The interesting part is that it seems like there would be enough space to better fit into the median if it would drive a little bit further. But of course the 'question mark approach' would make it easier and more comfortable because there would be even more room.

[@alesandraleckie5061]

Thank you for all the update videos, you really have done such an incredible job demonstrating this technology.

[@spudspud9755]

First videos I started watching you was on protected left turns and there was always intervention. last two videos I’ve watched doing unprotected left turns been zero intervention so fsd is definitely getting there😊

[@wizard-469]

[4:45] It definitely could go a little forward. That's where a front bumper camera would be great; it would be able to see that it could go forward a bit. The question mark maneuver would be great too.

[@PeterTeehan]

There are front cameras. Its in the housing of the review mirror. Pointing forward.

[@wizard-469]

@@PeterTeehan I know it, but it can't see right in front of the front bumper.

[@anandamroy4727]

For a second I thought you meant the Tesla battery beeping, then realized you meant the cam battery. :)

[@niklasgamborg9562]

You were sticking out enough to worry about !!!

[@thilieu9701]

❤ it is amazing for the cameras setup environment to demonstrate for FSD 12.5.4

[@HMIII]

Minute 5, damn man, that was gutsy.

[@jjy1463]

These are becoming my favorite videos, Chuck! I was just updated to 12.5.4 / 2024.27.25 a few hours ago. Looking forward to testing it on a long drive to Dulles Airport (VA) later today. Thanks for all your hard work on our community's behalf.

[@SpankeyMcCheeks]

The car even fits lengthwise across the median. It has at least another 1,5m (5 feet) it can use in front to not have the rear be sticking out into the lane.

[@billw.5964]

Definitely need the ?. 2X on coming traffic had to steer around you. There is nothing to lose performing the ? all the time as long as there is room.

[@Hangglide]

Conclusion: FSD is not ready for unprotected left turn yet. Thanks for risking your life to make this video.

[@DavidMossMGS]

I love that you don’t make fart jokes about ass etc It’s refreshing You’re #1 Tesla reviewer

[@Martinmack333]

I agree completely...the 12 year old sense of humor gets very old very quickly, Chuck is a great, professional, mature reviewer.

[@stephenreese5921]

Thank you, Captain!

[@GoooObama08]

yea the rear end is sticking out an uncomfortable amount in the median. If it creeped forward another foot it would be more comforting.

[@3s843a]

wayy too much sticking out i agree

[@ZeusRadls]

An unaware driver could have hit you. Tesla needs to clean up the median maneuver to protect against that scenario.

[@Acalon]

As ever Chuck out here doing the Lord's work, thanks for your incredibly insightful videos!

[@joedirnfeld]

Good job. I prefer a larger margin of safety in tight situations.

[@joby6462]

Important video, Chuck. FSD team will review the “question mark” position, and continue to improve. Your data is extremely important to help them make this turn in heavy traffic from either, or both sides, smooth, reliable and consistent.

[@TeslanaireOnline]

Yes, Chuck's UPL Turn!

[@wwkropp]

I would’ve disengaged for the turns where you had a pause and the car was sticking out . If you don’t mind your car getting smashed up here in Jacksonville I guess you can consider it a safe maneuver if you’re a gambling type. I absolutely would’ve reported those to Tesla if the car has to pause in the center of the 2 lanes , it’s unsafe

[@Fatman305]

Unsafe and illegal. Sad to see he let the car stick out when could have inched forward... And no, despite what he says, it wouldn't be the other guy's fault. It would be 90% his fault and 10% the other guy's fault since the other guy could likely still have prevented an accident...

[@danielhill3261]

Hi Chuck- of course you're right, about a "question mark" maneuver being better than going straight across, the consequence being that you're not fully in the median because your back is sticking out slightly into oncoming traffic. Eventually, you'll get clipped by an oncoming driver not paying attention. I'm surprised at the regression in the median behavior.

[@George2647g]

cybertruck gonna be mayhem without a 'question mark maneuver'..

[@winstonwu9129]

A way to resolve butt sticking out and to be more in the median, roll thru or not, is to ALWAYS arc to the right first, then proceed to the median… Just an idea for Tesla AI😌

[@Deviloc1]

That's exactly what Chuck means when he says he wishes it would do a "question mark" maneuver. It used to do it (in version 11) but it stopped doing it for version 12. At any rate, the car actually had room to pull forward a couple of feet every time it left the back of the car in the lane in the tests today, it just didn't do it.

[@khuo0219]

The car did it during V11 but it was an over-fitted solution for Chuck, that is, in other intersections it may not work. Now we have a generalized solution with end-to-end neural net training, and most of the left turns in the data do not involve the question mark maneuver. The question now is understanding what triggers this maneuver, and Tesla does not know at the moment.

[@rollincampbell1]

Thanks!

[@RogerWilsonTodd]

I am pro question mark for future enhancement.

[@darwinboor1300]

Thanks Chuck.

[@genelane2243]

Freeze frame @1:10 - there was plenty of room for your car if it had needed to stop in the medium. Several feet clear behind you as nose approached target lane. Maybe you should measure the distance between the yellow dashed lines and compare it to your car length sometime. The other times, yes, your tail was in danger, car had plenty of room to pull up and be safer, but didn't.

[@wonderboy75]

My main takeaway from watching is the US has some crazy intersections!

[@vaddimka]

Now imagine it during rain at night. I feel like it's a corner case of a corner case.

[@jhchooo]

When you do these, it'll be nice to see if you can keep interventions/attempts data and plot the progress on a graph

[@RossSlots]

Holy cow this is not good with you rear end sticking into that fast lane Is this a regression or new?!?

[@fflodeiro]

I think the car stayed within the limits of the lane, the camera angle creates a wrong perception. Too close of the lane limits for comfort though

[@fflodeiro]

I think technically your car stayed within the limits of your lane, too close for comfort though. Comfort is important factor, it's what prompts interventions and can cause problems distracted drivers as you mentioned. Totally agree the solution is a "question mark maneuver" and I think Cybertruck will "teach" the end-to-end NN

[@lucidf8]

Thanks for this Chuck. I agree that the median position is too exposed, and might result in being clipped by cross traffic behind you. But, it seems that a more conservative approach would be to wait for a bigger gap to the left when just waiting a few more seconds would provide a bigger margin of safety. I don’t think FSD is doing that yet. Perhaps soon?

[@BradMelbourneAus]

Honestly there is enough room in the centre even at the angle it's approaching. There is plenty of room for the car to move forward in the drone shots. Problem is acuracy of front positioning due to lack of bumper camera so they need to allow a bigger tolerance the front. You can see this same issue with vision park assist, it's way quicker to alarm stop in the front than in the rear.

[@asroma251992]

I have a theory on the reason FSD doesn't do the question mark manouver: the FSD team thinks that it poses more risk in certain situations. Now imagine doing the question mark while there's an oncoming car that needs to use the median.. the Tesla doing the question mark can get in the way of the other car trajectory. I would guess that not all the unprotected left turns have a median as large as the Chuck's median and doing that manouver can be risky in some cases. But i agree with you Chuck... the butt sticking out is really unconfortable.

[@svenlotze4490]

Yeah there were a few times that the rear end of your car was sticking into the lane, but it would not have been necessary to do a question mark maneuver to avoid this, because there was enough space to the front to completely fit into the median. Seems that the left-right positioning is generally better than front-rear, likely due to the positioning of the front camera.

[@GreylanderTV]

4:55 The problem here is that it simply is not precise understanding where the "comfortable" point is to stop within the median. That has nothing to do with the question mark maneuver. It stopped with butt hanging out maybe 1 foot over the line even though it had 4-5 feet in front of its nose, stopping much farther back than necessary. This might be a weird fuzzy calculation by the neural network where the much larger number of cars coming from the right "pushes back" its margin of safety more than the fewer cars coming from the left.

[@EDAHSC]

The ? maneuver is just one of many such things good drivers do to stay safe and keep other drivers around them safe. Have been driving for 40 years accident free and have finally bought a Tesla with FSD. For 3 weeks now I've had FSD, about 1,800 miles, mostly freeway. I've noticed there are so many little things that I do as a good driver that FSD has yet to master. Seems it's decision making is robotic, and not intuitive. Good drivers are intuitive, they gage for all sorts of variables that FSD seems (as of yet) to not consider when making decisions. FSD has a long way to go to become a good driver imho. Your example of the ? maneuver is an excellent example of one of those little things that can make a big difference in regards to safety. Having said that, there are many things it does better than I can. Drove Hwy 50 over the pass from Carson City, NV to Lake Tahoe and it handled the windy mountain pass with ease and comfort at night with lots of traffic. Much better than I could have done and I was happy to have FSD in control. Made for a much more enjoyable drive. Always enjoy your excellent video's.

[@memrjohnno]

Cheers.

[@pooroldpedro]

having a median not wide enough to contain a regular-size car seems crazy dangerous. It would be good to see this with a drone up to see actually where your rear is.

[@bingguo4297]

The median looks wide enough, the car needs to go more diagonally to not expose the rear end.

[@bingguo4297]

This happened in all the earlier videos.

[@kineticventures2113]

Just got 12.5.4 - soo many regressions and many new terrible features like breaking laws and life threatening maneuvers - bring back 12.3.6!!

[@xghostyxjokerx]

Looks good but agree the rear in needs to tuck in a bit more

[@Steve-bi2ic]

4:05 I tend to think this is the right decision for the level of the sensors. It knows where the approaching car is and it knows it can make the gap. It doesn’t know if there’s no car after that or if it just can’t perceive one. So to it the known known is safer than the known unknown.

[@kdungan100]

This is why FSD is not on CT yet. It is around 3 feet (a meter) longer. It would definitely need to do a question mark maneuver to fit in the median. They must have a ton of these type scenarios to work through.

[@petecunningham47]

Butt sticking out isn't comfortable for anyone, including the other drivers! I agree that they need to implement the question mark median waiting back in!

[@dss953]

Nice. I think in those instances where it feels like it will be too close for comfort you should go ahead and tap the accelerator to get an extra inch or two or whatever you think you need if it will make it safer and not put you too far forward. Tesla should use your inch or so of creep to improve it . If you get clipped it would be horrible for you, for the other driver, for Tesla and the Tesla community. Safety first! -Immersion Media

[@feedvid]

Yeah, 7:08 was uncomfortable. It will be interesting to see how FSD handles this with the Cybertruck. You are doing a great service with these vids! Certainly, Tesla is aware but it is great to see how each version of FSD handles this difficult intersection. When FSD is fully solved, it will be interesting to review your historical documentation of this amazing technology. 👍

[@PeterTeehan]

You can step on the accelerator pedal and apply a little bit to inch forward. I know you want the car to do it but there are scenarios where the car may not have experience enough to go through the action.

[@Mortizul]

I had no idea what you meant by a "Niza Stop", so I asked ChatGPT and it said that you were probably talking about the NHTSA and the fact that they stopped Tesla rolling through stops. Some context might be nice.

[@kasvindakulathunga]

Fsd has come so far! 😮

[@andrewvercillo7584]

I think the car did great there. If that car hits your rear end it’s totally their fault. It’s something I do all the time.

[@shallenberger57]

Great Video. Tesla may prove me wrong, but I still say they will not do a question mark maneuver..

[@edhill8568]

Maybe, but Chuck has video of Tesla's testers using Cybertrucks doing the question mark.

[@shallenberger57]

@edhill8568 I have seen those videos, but testing doesn't automatically turn into production AI performance. All those videos clearly showed the ADAS drivers actually driving. The question mark maneuver creates two issues. The image is blurred for the cameras, just like the car doing a U-Turn (as Chuck has stated). It also reduces the cars side visibility when the car is sitting at that sharper angle to the oncoming traffic. Tesla engineers can do amazing things but "My Opinion" is they will not implement the question mark maneuver. If they do, I will come back to this post and admit I was wrong..

[@shallenberger57]

​@edhill8568 Well, I was proven wrong. The first test drive of Cybertruck with FSD at the unprotected left used a very nice Question Mark maneuver.

[@edhill8568]

@@shallenberger57 It will be interesting to see if they use the question mark maneuver for the other Tesla models or is it just due to the size of the CT? If it were me I'd probably drive up a quarter mile and use the traffic lights.

[@shallenberger57]

@edhill8568 I agree especially for a Robotaxi

[@techyjames1945]

I think Tesla has that unprotected left turn down pat. Maybe a new location could be in order. Tesla pushed 12.5.2.1 to my Hardware 3 car yesterday and between two drive test one for 5 miles and 3 miles. The first had 2 minor traffic violations and one disengagement to change direction of car as it left lane of traffic around left corner and was about to hit guard rail. The two traffic violations both was a lane change with no signal. The second was take over as it was going from left lane to right lane .3 miles from a left turn. Now the second drive was flawless. It did have oddity where FSD turned before route planner on screen, but the alternate route would not have had any impact on trip other than the added extra stop sign from the side street it took. The part I will have to test farther is the right turn at a 4 way stop that 12.3.6 wouldn’t normally take without tap on accelerator. This was one of few times there was traffic at the stop, which seemed to help 12.3.6. Now what was oddly strange was after I got home it downloaded 12.5.4 update, just hour after 12.5.2.1. Don’t ever remember two updates coming so soon.

[@rubenpuls353]

There is enough room in the median for the whole car to fit even with the current angle it has. It's just too cautious of the traffic from the right and stops 1 meter further back than it can and should do.

[@mrneveryoumind]

They need to sort this question mark thing out or this isn't going to work.

[@sshrdl]

It looks like the car could fit the whole way in the median, even without the ? maneuver. Why isn’t it pulling forward a little bit more? Is it a blind spot thing?

[@vinod8941]

Pulling forward can make coming cars more uncomfortable than sticking back

[@sshrdl]

It would probably be better in some cases for the car to not enter the second set of lanes, but in this specific situation, it looks like there's enough space for the whole car.

[@iainmrodgers9991]

About making a good manœuvre instead of waiting for a better manoeuvre - if there was a lot of traffic behind you they would be happy for you to go ASAP instead of waiting. So long as its safe i think its better to go ASAP and if everyone does it, traffic flows better.

[@clashenriksen961]

Tesla's have a big butt, but otherwise almost there with full autonomy. Thanks for a new good on unprotected left turns :)!

[@mikeyc8139]

I don't really think that's debatable: you're right that it shouldn't leave it's butt sticking out. I don't even think it needs the question mark maneuver. Just pull up another 18 -24 inches.

[@darwinboor1300]

12.5.4 downloading to my HW3 Y.

[@TimFrench-tx1xj]

Agree, better?

[@mikeroerig2499]

How does auto pilot react to fire trucks and police cars with lights flashing?

[@pepcjim1]

Acceleration lane needed. The future demands change.

[@StormyDog]

Thanks Chuck, great video. Any insight into why they're so slow in rolling out these newer, better versions? I've been stuck on 12.4.3 for well over 2 months. Some poor souls are still on 12.3.6.

[@chiefpenguin82]

Is there a way to get an overhead view from the opposite angle? This will allow us to see how far your tail sticks out.

[@onemoreparadis]

Good day, M.Cook. i've been watching and following you for many years now. As I noticed the left hand turn, it's always the same corner. Could you maybe find another place, or is the left-hand turn not protected to see the difference. Thank you. Have a great day, by the way. This is John to Montreal, have a great day bye bye

[@ChuckCook]

Thanks for the feedback.

[@paulmeynell8866]

You need to put a camera on the back facing down, it’s possible the car is actually in the line ,it’s just impossible to tell from the video. If you do a ? Do you then limit the ability to look right and see the traffic?

[@ericchild3363]

Chuck, to create better scenarios, can you approach the turn with FSD off and then only engage it when you think best, eg when there is a small gap etc?

[@mzen68]

Stick out should be ok. Image this is U turn. The cars will stick out too. The car behind should go around or wait.

[@normskog6447]

What is the question mark maneuver

[@CYCLEGAMER1]

It’s DEFINITELY sticking out too far in the back. Thats dangerous

[@fflodeiro]

I think the car stayed within the limits of the lane, the camera angle creates a wrong perception. Too close of the lane limits for comfort though

[@tjmozdzen]

It was still riding the left lane line after the turn.

[@z4zuse]

I don’t remember if you ever ran these tests at night. If so, has performance improved?

[@ChuckCook]

The low traffic at night does not make it difficult. I will need to try high density traffic once daylight savings is over.

[@alesh2275]

Tesla needs to train the AI on your specific use case where your rear end was sticking out.

[@lashlarue59]

He has a HW4 car and I'm curious how well a HW3 car would do in these situations since the cameras on HW3 are such lower resolution.

[@brianp8384]

Thanks Chuck, great as usual. I find it very frustrating that Tesla had solved the median issue many versions ago (last year?) with the question mark maneuver but has since abandoned it for reasons unknown.

[@datamatters8]

I agree that having your rear end sticking out into the lane is problematic. All it would take is an inattentive driver, hugging the left side of the lane to slam into you. Expecting other drivers to pay attention in order for you to stay safe when FSD could do a better job moving into the median is not a great strategy. I wonder if you carried out this test 1000 times how many times you would get hit by an inattentive driver.

[@Mpr47276]

Being stuck on 12.3.6 still, I’ve lost complete awareness of latest releases. Is this 12.5.4 version the HW3 release or something else?

[@Brendon471]

That was 12.5.1.5, but 12.5.2.1 started going out and the 12.5.2.x releases have the same unified model on HW3 and HW4 so they should function the same (12.5.1.5 had a smaller model that wasn't as good as the full model). 12.5.4 adds improvements to ASS and improves some driving characteristics as well.

[@winnerdanny7]

yes it works on hw3

[@Mpr47276]

Thanks and I just happened to get the v12.5.2.1 download last night finally.

[@ColinR4]

You would think the car would use its rear and front cameras to see the lane markers to stay in the middle section.

[@peterhelm522]

Even without a s-curve it could go 2 feet further without sticking into the lane in front of you.

[@mwahlert]

Does it wait for all clear in the middle lane?

[@MultiVfc]

Chuck, some of the times it was way too risk! Please intervene! The test is not worth your well being

[@thomasireland1770]

its got a butt problem ,,time to notify tesla team

[@jjjxoxoxo]

That ASS isn't that big to not fit in the median. Come on Tesla get the car to fit in the median.

[@Cybertruck_69]

Using auto headlights, why does it seem to consistently wait five seconds before reverting to high beams after the car passes? Should be 1 second. High beams are amazing so let’s use them.

[@mhan00]

You should 100 percent be intervening when the butt of the car is sticking out like that. Some of those cars got uncomfortably close. Depending on other drivers to see and move around your car is way too dangerous on a road with cars going that fast.

[@artinweddings]

When the ass end of the car was hanging out in traffic I feel like that is a super common thing that people do unfortunately. So the auto pilot was trained on some bad habits. It seems like the majority of the population are very poor at judging distance. They leave a lot of room in front of their car but choose to ignore the fact that the back end of their car is hanging out in traffic.

[@nkpenn]

Robotaxi already have better eyes, faster reaction than human. The question is when will they have better brain to make better decisions than human.

[@bisujin1685]

Nice video!!! Are you on HW3?

[@ChuckCook]

AI4.

[@harmanx.]

@@ChuckCook Do you know how this version works on HW3 compared to AI4? (Your knowledge of the software would be very valuable in comparing differences between the two -- especially since the vast majority of Tesla owners have cars with the older hardware.)

[@importon]

Tesla will need to refund all that bought FSD on a HW3 (and possibly HW4) vehicle. They advertised it as "pay 15k for FULL self driving on this vehicle coming soon" not "pay 15k to roll the dice and there's a small chance you'll get what you paid for". there will be a class action lawsuit guaranteed.

[@peterzuo]

I don’t think it’s a big deal of the butt sticking out. Almost all the drivers understood situations like this. Worst case, hitting by the butt is better than by the head in such narrow space in the middle.

[@GreylanderTV]

You do realize the median zone is a couple feet wider than the longest diagonal of the Model Y, right? Just look at the drone footage. You have zero need of the question mark maneuver to fit in the median at a good angle with no problem whatsoever, unless getting around a left-turner that is blocking you.

[@wreckinball11]

It's been 2 steps forward and one back for years. Those cars were way to close with your rear out. I finally got off V12.3.6 today and V12.5.2.1 has horrible lane selection and map data usage. V12.3.6 was better.