Did You Notice This in Skyrim?

[@JaceMorley]

An interesting thing between older ES games is that Morrowind and Oblivion were both set at the downswing of society. The fall of the Tribunal and the Septim dynasty, it's the point that a Golden Age collapses and the guild quests reflect that, the organizations still being powerful but starting to tear themselves apart. You can see the rot setting in. Skyrim, everything is in ruins and you are starting the rebuilding. College, Companions, Dark Brotherhood, the Empire itself are all in ruins at the point you come along but your presence either starts the reconstruction (or puts them out of their misery to make way for something new).

[@kroatos606]

The oathbreaker for Dawnguard wasn't Harkon, it was Virthur. Both Serana and her mother were devout followers of Molag Bal, they just turned out to have different viewpoints on how to coexist with mortals.

[@alemirdikson]

I would argue Harkon broke an oath as a father and husband. Not so much as a supplicant of Molag Bal. There's also Durnehviir, who broke his oath against the Dov to practice necromancy, and arguably again when he allows the Dovahkiin to leave the Soul Cairn alive after having "freed" Valerica.

[@FudgeMuppet]

The situation with Vyrthur is an interesting one for sure! Thanks for bringing that up actually we'll make sure to touch on it in our video where we deep dive into this oath breaking idea in more pre planned video-essay way 😊

[@littleedenvalleyfarm8165]

Yeah I found the whole black out the sun a stupid plan. Yeah sure the sun can't hurt you but without the sun everything dies. No plants no animals no humans to feed on. So it was just idiotic for someone that is suppose to be very old and very smart.

[@paulgrattan3885]

Yeah Vyrthur is Dawnguards oathbreather. He turned on his god corrupted his temple and wanted to annihilate his God's influence on the world. You could say its divine intervention from Auriel through machinations to get Serana to be the one to put him down. The very weapon Vyrthur needed to enact his plan is his downfall. Serana be8ng that weapon.

[@UnswimmingFishYT]

I'd say with Vyrthur, it was equally Auriel's betrayal of Vyrthur as his own betrayal of Auriel. He let him become infected with vampirism, then did absolutely nothing to help. He clearly has the ability to do so, since curing a disease is firmly established as something the Aedra do regularly at their shrines, yet he didn't do it for one of his highest-ranking followers ever, whose life revolved around serving him. This is also interestingly a mirror image of the way vampires originated in the first place. Molag Bal corrupted Lamae, and Arkay didn't do anything about that either.

[@badluck5647]

"So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other." - Jaime Lannister

[@Wild_Rat69]

Well I mean he took the love your sister vow seriously, yes I know he kinda killed her back t he loved her more than ANYTHING

[@thalmoragent9344]

Well, not necessarily. If you have a good king, like Jaeherys maybe... then you can definitely do all of that easily.

[@badluck5647]

@@thalmoragent9344 Realistically, there is there is little chance that the nobility, the citizens, and your family (especially the Lanasters) have their interests align. This means choices have to be made where an oath can't be honored. Look at the Thalmor who chose to forsake their oath to the Altmer monarchy for what they believe would be the best for the Mer.

[@DoeSwiftandBond]

True goodness is its own reward.

[@nathanrosman-bakehouse359]

Jamie, while cynical, has a point and misses another. If you agree to to many promises and obligations but then you will end up with conflicting interests. The other point is that those that you swore oaths to also swore oaths. If they break their oath and force you into conflict then your obligation to them is absolved. If you have a good king and a good father and the laws are just, it is easy to keep your word. But when the king tells you ro break the law and hurt the weak. Or your father tells you to kill the king... you, through no fault of your own, are forced to choose.

[@hijeans1103]

I feel like Todd Howard is the ultimate Oath breaker

[@Henrex2000]

16 times the details

[@jamesaditya5254]

Yet, somehow.... it just works

[@flawless_Cowboy]

@@jamesaditya5254 it always "just works" 😭

[@ao1778]

Nah, just a j*w

[@olympusthedarkone83]

He hurts us but we keep coming back for more

[@lostinreality3145]

Always thought even though you're meant to be the last dragonborn and technically you've only postponed alduin from eating the world, surely by becoming a vampire and being immortal you can just wait out his return and stop him again

[@xthelone]

Ulfric also broke the oath of the greybeards.

[@Saber23]

No he didn’t he left the greybeards so he had no oath to them

[@flaskhjertako]

​@@Saber23 I saw you everywhere in the shorts comment section. This must be important to you

[@simpled5755]

​@@Saber23he broke the oath by leaving them

[@Saber23]

@@simpled5755 I don’t think you take an oath to the greybeards themselves, you just take an oath of silence

[@simpled5755]

@@Saber23 I guess it's not an oath, per se, but rather he betrayed their teachings, that the thu'um is not to be used for personal gain. Which Ulfric promptly did in his selfish attempt to steal the high kings throne

[@awayoflife7292]

You've got Paarthunax, assumingly having an oath to Alduin and ultimately betraying him and potentiallly be killed as a consequence if you stupidly decide to kill him, but his quote regarding that is brilliant, "What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" And because of that quote I don't kill Erandur during Verminas quest

[@lordforanime660]

Sure but I like her staff so of with erandurs head

[@xineohpinakc264]

Alduin did not fulfill his oath so the Gods stepped in and made Paarthunax teach mankind the voice. The ancient Nords developed dragonrend which was a painful shout that made dragons temporarily mortal. and grounded them. Paarthunax had an oath to Akatosh and then Kyne because Alduin abandoned his duty.

[@mystikalmadness8739]

Before I got into the story of Skyrim I always chose to kill paarthurnax coz "kids killing dragon is funny" but then I started to pay attention to the story and since then I Fus Ro Dah Delphine off of the mountain after the peace treaty

[@zacklacy2445]

The word breaking aspect also makes perfect sense when the whole game pivots around the very idea of the thuum, literally using your word and staying true to what you say because your words have power, and not dealing falsey or misusing them.

[@insaincaldo]

Hmm... so in a sense YOU are the word that binds the oath breakers.

[@gerbenvanegmond4007]

Isran is an oath breaker too. Serana walks into fort Dawnguard and he doesn't even kill her.

[@xwing2417]

Maybe, maybe not. He's deferring judgement until the greater threat is defeated. If he's an oath breaker, it's the Vigilants he betrayed.

[@victoriousf.i.g.3311]

What always blew my mind was how Alduin was supposed to eat the world back in the old days, when he instead raised a dragon army and was sent into the future by the Elder Scroll. From the perspective of fate, the world should have ended during that first appearance of Alduin; everything that happened after would have been a sort of skewed timeline. Thousands of years of history occurred that never should have; the world should have been reborn. Which begs the question: Does the entirety of the Elder Scrolls take place in this tangent? Is the reason you have such fantastical events occurring throughout the series because a timeline is advancing that should have been ended long ago? The advances and disappearance of the Dwemer, the rise of necromancers, Nerevar and the Nerevarine, are they all the product of a timeline that never should have been? And what about the next world? Paarthurnax queries the dragonborn, says the egg of the next world would be unable to hatch because the current world still existed. After thousands of years waiting to come to fruition, what is that next world like? Has it appeared in another reality or does it wait, slowly stagnating and dying, because the current world was too selfish to accept its own end, not once, but now twice and over thousands of years?

[@Rewwgh]

FudgeMuppet here still keeping Skyrim discussions interesting and fresh. Absolutely loved this! 👌

[@DerrikIsImproving]

This is a scammer man dont trust it

[@callumevans5847]

The real Oathbreaker is us, the players, who commit to a build/playstyle then become stealth archers. Oathbreaking as an overarching theme is very interesting and you can drill down as it features in so many quests. Literally the first npc you talk to in the first dungeon of the main quest (Arvel) is an Oathbreaker. However, a lot of the more micro level oathbreaking is harder to pull into the theory as it is a slightly lesser/different version: betrayal. Which is really just a trope for quest design in general so it's harder to say.

[@fireice8828]

Me with about 1000 hours and still never played stealth archer lol

[@pedigreeann]

Say you start out as a dedicated two-handed player. Then you get to the first dragon fight. You are stuck because you can only hit it when it is down and often your armor isn't good enough to keep you alive. (Unless you are Gopher and don't start the main quest for 5 chapters). You have to to be able to damage it with bows or cower in the tower. And as you say,, it is so easy to slip into using the archery from there.

[@mystikalmadness8739]

I always end up an invis assassin too easy to level sneak and illusion plus the double backstab gloves from the dark brotherhood giving you a x30 sneak attack bonus is the truly broken build, or doing the amulet glitch with 5 amulets of Talos for infinite shouting

[@louthinator]

it's not just oathbreaking, but there also seems to be a theme of return to tradition. Every faction is ignoring tradition and is suffering for it, becoming weaker and it's only be re-embracing that tradition do they regain their strength.

[@fatpanda73]

I love your theories like this because at the start of the video, it seems like you’re really going to have to stretch some aspects to make the theory work, but you guys always make it really easy to understand. And there isn’t a lot of stretching either, other than the College of Winterhold everything was really straightforward and simple. You guys are the best!

[@porcupineracer2]

May be the destruction of winterhold region and the orb thing beneath the college have something to do with it.

[@FudgeMuppet]

Thank you so much!!!

[@elliotwhite32]

1. the falmer are called the betrayed 2. dragonborn betrays amaund motierre 3. astrid breaks all five tenets 4. the battleborns sold out a graymane 5. olaf one eye was apparently a fraud 6. ebony blade is based around betrayal 7. diebella priestess lets a male into the temple if you flirt with her 8. the elf in the seige of the dragon cult quest is subverting society 9. stands in shallows wont let a dark elf enjoy his double distilled skooma 10. betraying hircine in ill met by moonlight makes you happy 11. betraying the markarth priest turns you a cannibal 12. not only do the blades expect you to betray parthanax, but he betrayed alduin 13. the jagged crown quest has a betrayal option that has no real consequences 14. ildene betrays the silver blood family 15. caius betrayed the player character by growing his hair out and becoming the emperor

[@pedigreeann]

The Battleborns did not not 'sell out' a Greymane. Thorold Greymane joined the Stormcloaks and was captured in battle with the Imperials; the Battleborns wrote to ask about him then Tullius wrote back that the Thalmor had seized him and to shut up about the whole situation. Only if you become a high-ranking officer in the Imperial Army does Tullius agree to request that Thorold be released. I see no oath-breaking by the Battleborns in this.

[@ajohnymous5699]

The Battleborns are neighbors to the Greymanes and we're good friends at one point. There is a betrayal, not only in that, but the way they taunt Fralia in the market. They could have just told her, been honest, but instead they mocked her as they flaunted the fact he might have been in trouble. That is betrayal. And the punishment comes from either the dragonborn being asked to break into their home and rob them, pickpocketing Jons letter and threatening him despite being the friendliest to you regardless of political leanings, or leveraging your friendship with Idolaf to have him betray his father. The Battleborns betrayed their long time friends and potential in laws.

[@porcupineracer2]

So, Lorkhan broke a vow and he was punished for it. And now that event continues to echo throughout history in different forms.

[@thalmoragent9344]

Yep, in a never ending Kalpic Cycle of Hatred. One Auriel unfortunately can't seem to ever end, one Lorkhan keeps on using his schemes to make happen over and over. Which is why (most of) the Elves and the Redguards are so pissed at Lorkhan. The fact that it's all basically them getting their literal souls all recycled in the Dreamsleeve

[@witoldendrju2458]

Lorkhan created the world by breaking an oath. Therefore, the world is made of oathbreaking.

[@Super50ldier]

@@thalmoragent9344 Why do you like the Redguards?

[@adsuabeakufea]

on Dawnguard: I feel that this theme is also shown through Auriel's abandonment of Vythur and Vythur's subsequent abandonment of his people. He claims that he did in fact have "the ears of a god" before his vampirism, after which he was completely forsaken.Honestly, it would be pretty screwed up if he was actually receiving insight from Auriel but got no word of his initiate infecting him/the future of his people. I also see it in Isran's abandonment of the Vigalants (mentioned by all his friends, toland, etc), the OG Dawnguard's abandonment of their purpose (they all turned to vampires instead of properly containing the jarl's son), and Serana's/Valerica's abandonment of their clan's plots (and potentially Serana's vampirism altogether, if that path is pursued). Even in Duhenviir's abandonment of his kind to serve the ideal masters(maybe I'm remembering that wrong though). Also almost every major sidequest and guild storyline. Dam. Every daedric quest, Parthurnaax's abandonment of serving Alduin, East Empire Company's abandonment of running Ravenrock, Neloth's abandonment of teaching Illdari (though accidental, it's not like he's remorseful when he finds out lol), Thirsk's abandonment of defending their mead hall, Madnach's abandonment of leading the forsworn, the Blade's abandonment of their dragon hunting duties, everything Ulfric is known for, the peoples' abandonment of duty to serve the empire/empire's abandonment of it's duty to protect the people, Shor's abandonment of his throne, Savos' abandonment of competence. Companions is a double edge as you could also argue Kodlak is now abandoning his duty to Hircine The true main antagonists (Vythur, Miraak, and Alduin) all seem to share 3 similarities: their abandonment of their duty to Akatosh/Auriel+Lorkhan, their subsequent rise to power which culminates in 4e year 201, and their defeat at the hands of the Dragonborn. If anything IS cannon from Skyrim, it's that our character has come through to punish those who have abandoned their duties to Akatosh. Honestly, Akatosh sorta got a bargain with our character. I mean Martin only handled Dagon and that wasn't even a personal beef. Akatosh has the Dovahkiin out here wiping out ex-champions from across thousands of years like it's going out of style. I do think it's super interesting that not only are so many of these situations can be traced to an abandonment of duty, but also that the Dragonborn is the one who comes through to fulfill these duties/resolve these betrayals like 9 times out of 10. Maybe it's just because that's a super easy story format to integrate our character into a questline, maybe it does have some hidden philosophical meaning, I'll wait until you guys make another video before I think too hard about it. Really enjoyed this one!

[@thalmoragent9344]

I wouldn't say Auriel betrayed Vyrthur. Vyrthur, a Curate who was infected with Vampirism, but afterwards broke his Oath, (If the Theory is true that Vyrthur killing and not helping the initiate from Vampirism is why Auriel no longer spoke to him directly). The idea being he killed a fellow Snow Elf in such a tumultuous time for their race, that Auriel was like "bro, you're a grand priest, you could've forgiven him and helped bring him back to the Light, and I could've saved both of you with my blessings and cures... now I can't do that for him, thanks to you". And then there's the opposite, jus brother Knight-Paladin Gelebor, a Mer who guarded the last remnant of his Ancient people for, damn like... 4,000+ years and granted Immortality, something no other Priest or Knight of any Variant of the Time God has EVER been given

[@adsuabeakufea]

​@@thalmoragent9344 Vythur actually states that initiate snuck up on and infected him during dialogue w Serana. He was upset that Auriel hadn't protected him and that he turned his back on Vythur after he was infected, so he swore revenge via his plot w Auriel's bow. Even Serana was like "but Auriel should've protected you" when he reveals this

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@adsuabeakufea Well, we know the Aedra have little power for most of the time. They're mostly in a Coma of sorts, so, maybe Auriel really couldn't have done anything. Or, Vyrthur was corrupted even before this, and so Auriel didn't intervene, perhaps he was being tested by Auriel, and Vyrthur failed in what he chose to do after this situation. I guess we'll never know, sadly. Although we know Arkay didn't do anything when Lamae was infected by Bal... maybe there's a reason they can't be saved after being infected? Vampirism may be an issue that we don't know the full extent of

[@Super50ldier]

@@thalmoragent9344 Auriel is in Aetherius with the other Elven gods so that gives him no excuse for abandoning Vyrthur while Akatosh is unconscious.

[@squidmanfedsfeds5301]

This is great, I always love finding the theme of a game or movie and this just makes me appreciate Skyrim a little bit more

[@m424786]

This ruins it for me. every story is the same

[@squidmanfedsfeds5301]

@@m424786 a lot of movies and games do this, I wouldn’t say they’re the same they just have similar reasons behind it starting, like ulfric coping with his failure of duty by plunging into what he thinks is right, returning to old nord ways Or paarthurnax turning away from what he was made to do but turning it into a positive thing by living a more peaceful life and helping humans Same theme of turning away from duty but almost completely different stories

[@bombchus]

Yes... what ever it is, Yes.

[@bombchus]

Hmmmm a tradition is solution you forgot the problem to. when people get rid of a tradition without understanding, the problem usually comes back.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@bombchus We're seeing that in many societies today... evidently enough

[@Cyrathil]

I'd never thought about it, but oath breaking is a perfect theme for the setting. Skyrim isn't just Norse because it's a bunch of white people living in snowy mountains. Oathbreaking is a big thing in the old Norse cultures. Also, I'm surprised that Danica Pure-Spring and the Gildergreen is not mentioned when talking about the Nords betraying the old ways and the old Gods. Danica's solution to the tree dying is to knowingly, literally kill Kyne's creation for worldly gains. Granted, it's to secure donations to fund healing so maybe it's not the worst thing she could have done, but she knew Nettlebane was evil and twisted, to the point that she couldn't touch the dagger herself, but still wanted to go through with the plan. It's also one of the first quests you can reasonably come across outside of the main quest line.

[@8xottox8]

You're just tapping into the tree, not killing it though?

[@insaincaldo]

It's a little pain to the mother to heal the child, wouldn't exactly call that a betrayal of her god. Besides it's only because she knows no alternative, but you can find that and not even cause harm.

[@theelderscrolls_area]

It's so awesome... Thx alot man...

[@bellystraw]

Ancano should've been like a Severus Snape kinda guy. Looks, talks and acts all evil but then shows he's been the good guy all along with the archmage being the twist villain. I will die on that hill! Edit: I'm also gonna need a build/backstory for a fisherman character!

[@SelphieTheNutter]

I think its a good moral theme. Even if your oath is to a God like Sithis or Nocturnal you should still keep your Oath. Honesty is the only thing that makes anyone a good person, even if your cruel, being honest about it is a kindness, it lets everyone know where they stand, there's no second guessing and worrying if they are telling the truth, there's no room for doubt. Noone likes it when people don't keep their promises, it makes people angry. When you promise someone you'll do something for them because you mean it you always keep your promise no matter what. But when you make a promise to someone because you want to be a good person, or you want vengeance or power, the moment you get what you want you will inevitably break your Oath to them. It's a good moral lesson about the consequences and the real nature of belief. Moral of the story don't make promises you can't keep. Pay attention to what you're heart is feeling when you make a promise and you'll no the diffence between the feeling you have when your willing to keep your word and the feeling that makes you break it. When you know yourself you'll never let anyone who truly loves you down and people will always know where they stand in your eyes.

[@lazulenoc6863]

I miss Drew. I wonder if he's in a clockwork city of his own.

[@badluck5647]

kzbin.info

[@smitty1647]

he has his own channel, Drewmora

[@viggotallknog3877]

@@smitty1647 Why’d they split?

[@smitty1647]

@@viggotallknog3877 kzbin.info/www/bejne/fpbFlmyAipupjpo

[@DrJay-iy8rv]

My mind is blown never realized how Oathbreaking was a central theme in Skyrim. Imma play it again

[@chesterstevens8870]

Attempt #3 for asking about a future "Is It Worth It?" video for Hermaeous Mora cultists.

[@AB-gh5be]

oh, this is an interesting take on it! i always personally saw all the oath breaking/breaking from tradition in skyrim as an extension of the end-times motif; like, you know how in a great number of mythologies, in the prelude to the apocalypse, things on earth become worse? the decline in the various organisations, the civil war, the somewhat more pessimistic overall tone-all seem to harken to an ending, helped make alduin seem like a more metaphysical threat. people were turning their backs on what came before, and so what came next turned to them; as above, so below.

[@Signaem]

The Dragonborn giving his soul to every single daedric prince will never stop being hilarious.

[@ZteffenTheBatFan]

I definitely agree there's a theme here. The moment they said what the theme was, those 3 side questlines as well as Alduin not eating the world immediately came to mind.

[@isthatwhatemptymeans8222]

There is also redemption. Kodlak rejects Hyr ines gift and returns to Talos worship, undoing the Nord Oathbreaker Terrfyg.

[@gwest3644]

The very fatalistic story of the Elder Scrolls gives it a very mythological tone that I love. The message is clear: everyone is a pawn of something greater, and any who deny it are doomed to fail. This theme is apparent in other ES games too: - In Arena, the main antagonist, Jagar Tharn, betrayed his oath to the Emperor and is defeated by the Eternal Champion. - In Daggerfall, even if you betray the Emperor yourself by giving up the Totem to another power, there is basically no way to “win” without being someone else’s lackey. - In Morrowind, Almsivi betrayed their oath to both Nerevar and Azura and are destroyed (however indirectly) by Azura and Nerevar reborn. - Unfortunately I can’t think of too many instances of this theme in Oblivion’s main story, both the heroes and villains are faithful servants of higher powers (the Divines and Mehrunes Dagon respectively)

[@insaincaldo]

By Mankar Camoran's words Oblivion is all about the divines and Lorkhan's oaths.

[@horizontide568]

Micheal and Scott been hitting the gym? You guys looked like you're on the road to the gun show 😂

[@alemirdikson]

Apart from Savos Aren, I would also pin the role of oathbreaker in Winterhold on Ancanno. He abandoned his duties to the Thalmor and attempted to use the Eye of Magnus to his own ends, spitting on not only the Thalmor, but also Magnus and even the College of Winterhold, who were under his jurisdiction.

[@nunyabizness6687]

If the Thalmor's goal was the unmaking of Mundus, Ancanno could have been trying to fulfill it.

[@samuelhaverghast2442]

@@nunyabizness6687 that's a fun little theory that is not proven yet, but people like you think that is what they are doing.. when you honestly don't know that yourself, I don't think its something like that, I think the Thalmor are more then likely trying to be like the Ayelids of the past, but instead of being rulers of one specific province, they want to rule Tamriel itself and possibly the rest of Nirn, the reason they are so focused on Cyrodil, is because the Imperial city is a Ayelid creation, therefore the elves of the Thalmor feel that is their birthright, and their place to rule from..

[@alemirdikson]

@@samuelhaverghast2442 It hasn't been proven, but there's a really big chunk of evidence to support it, it's a major theory in the fandom, and many people have taken it as headcanon. If you disagree with the theory, that's fine. However, going around attacking people with "people like you" and "you don't know" statements when they're contributing to a conversation is just dickish. The dude included "if" in their supposition, recognizing their statement as a rerefence to a theory. They clearly weren't claiming it as a fact. There's no cause for accusatory statements.

[@alemirdikson]

@@nunyabizness6687 That's also possible, but he was clearly blinded by lust for power. If he truly wished to unmake Mundus, he would have tried to bring the Eye to Alinor, rather than attempting to Tribunal himself with it. Perhaps he thought he could just do it himself on the spot, but at best that makes him sloppy and incompetent.

[@thesusimposter3]

I always thought the main theme of Skyrim was how power corrupts. The graybeards pushing you to temper your power whilst the blades push you to use it. Even with the theme of the dragonborn dlc showing the corruption of Miraak and the seekers. The Dovah themselves as being mentioned by Paarthunax as inherently power hungry and dominant. The guild questlines too. Arcano using the eye of magnus (seeking power through magic) Mercer stealing the skeleton key (seeking power through riches) The companions becoming werewolves (Seeking power through might). Then there's Harkon of course who become obsessed with power over the sun.

[@gamerfourlife64]

most people: skyrim is nothing but a meme fudgemuppet: hold my mead

[@meinebosma]

Getting betrayed so often that The Last Dragonborn can deflect a dagger to the back with the daggers already imbedded in the back.

[@gjk282]

Usually, I'm super disappointed every time I watch a video with a clickbaity title. But you did not overpromise and you did deliver. Really interesting take!

[@unbreakablelag]

So what do you guys think the divine punishment for the Skaal will be since their Shaman gave up their secrets to Mora?

[@salemnights4443]

I wonder how well Frea was trained to be their next Shaman. As she always wanted to be a warrior or a hunter, she mentioned that being the Shaman was not the path of her choice. Makes me question how well did she train for that role, despite accepting her fate. It also seems that her father's death was something unexpected, so probably nobody was prepared for her to become the next Shaman so early. I suppose that the lack of All-Maker's intervention upon Storn's death and the Skaal potentially losing some of their secrets with their previous Shaman's life are their punishment

[@zacharyfranklin1535]

@@salemnights4443 I think that more implies the small being absorbed into the greater Nordic conglomerate with some additions rather than a complete erasure- look at the Britons and the Gauls when Rome invaded- they kept their gods and their ways, but under Roman tules

[@lastdayer101]

It will get a little warmer on the island.

[@michaelstarodub6804]

Isn't there a line of dialogue about how it was always predicted that the Skaal would eventually give up their secrets to Herma-Mora? If so, I think they were fulfilling an oath, in a way, or at the very least, fulfilling a prophecy

[@insaincaldo]

@@salemnights4443 Good enough to make an amulet that protected her from Miraak's influence, the same way her father did for the village through the meditation ritual.

[@badluck5647]

Ulfric also broke his oath to the Greybeards by using his Tongue to kill fellow Nords instead of using the Thu'um solely for the worship of the gods.

[@albertobarbosa4938]

Hasn't he resigned halfway through his training to help empire in the Great War? Maybe he didn't swore to not use Angry Viking Yell yet?

[@badluck5647]

@@albertobarbosa4938 "The Greybeards believe the Voice should be used only for worship of Kynareth. I have... fallen from their strict teaching" -Ulfric

[@albertobarbosa4938]

@@badluck5647 Ok, I was just wondering

[@lastdayer101]

Malyn Varen in Azura's quest was a Dunmer. In defiling the star, he was going against one of the three good daedra. It all tracks. Also in Dawnguard, the Knight Paladin's brother betrayed his people. Also one of the foundational myths of the Dawnguard is that the people who were to keep watch over the lord's son betrayed their duty.

[@gaminreasons8941]

That assumes he actually followed The Reclamations religion though, we've met many Dunmer that don't follow the mainstream beliefs before and after the Fall of the Tribunal.

[@maxwell_j_R]

They Mythic Dawn quest really highlights how it's not about morals, just divine comeuppance.

[@Kreb0225]

Bleak falls barrows first character betrays the dragon born and runs off with the golden claw and immediately dies, lol

[@RestlessHarp]

This is really interesting, I didn't notice this, but I totally see it now! Also Bujold of Thirsk mead hall would be another example like Yamarz, maybe not breaking an explicit oath, but definitely not living up to the kind of leader she was supposed to be and ended up getting kicked out by the rieklings.

[@iluvgames717]

I will never forget the first time i went to Windhelm to join the Stormcloaks and went to talk to Jarl Ulfric, and he asks, "Do I know you?" As i a fresh young woman was ready to join he blurted out "I know a man with an axe for your head i would introduce you too." After that it made me question what side I'm on. People talking about hating Ligate Rikka at Helgen, not realizing its not the same person. Ulfric would kill you too for being neutral. Just like he attacks Whiterun. People who only played Skyrim think The Empire is some generic evil Empire. As Dragonborn you have a claim to rule the Empire, but no players want to be High King of Skyrim and burn down there own house? As Emperor/Empress you could clean house instead. How many people ever think of that?

[@FudgeMuppet]

Just saw this! Thank you so much for the support!!!

[@Michael-ee4uz]

Doesn't the Jarl of Winterhold view the College as having betrayed Skyrim and causing the catastrophe that led to the destruction of his city?

[@insaincaldo]

Yes, but he is clearly just pointing fingers.

[@crookedankle7138]

Also being able to switch sides at the start of the civil war by taking the jagged crown to the other side could be another example

[@jackdoolittle165]

Bards College was the Jarl breaking tradition

[@thalmoragent9344]

I suppose Oath Breaking or Oath Keeping is a concept that could get a lot of story cover as well. As for the Empire, even when they worshipped Talos heavily... Talos abandoned them in the Oblivion Crisis. It was Akatosh who rocked up to help. Talos' whole speech in Morrowind about "meh, let the Empire die" could be Talos abandoning his people, letting his Empire fall. And since Lorkhan is all about Chaos and Change, maybe "loyalty" to him as a Mortal Empire is bound to be flippant and unreliable. ( *"The Talos Mistake"* is something Scott has even admitted he somewhat agreed with, the Empire tossed the TRUE Aedric Divines into the background for the sake of Talos.) So the White-Gold Concordat, while still breaks faith with Talos, could also be the ramification of Talos... not caring either. Akatosh's situation of the Oath Keeping of the Dragon Fires getting broken (albeit in necessity) would be interesting to look at instead. And I suppose a good example would be Vyrthur, a Curate who was infected with Vampirism, but afterwards broke his Oath, (If the Theory is true that Vyrthur killing and not helping the initiate from Vampirism is why Auriel no longer spoke to him directly). The idea being he killed a fellow Snow Elf in such a tumultuous time for their race, that Auriel was like "bro, you're a grand priest, you could've forgiven him and helped bring him back to the Light, and I could've saved both of you with my blessings and cures... now I can't do that for him, thanks to you". And then there's the opposite, his brother Knight-Paladin Gelebor, a Mer who guarded the last remnant of his Ancient people for, damn like... 4,000+ years and granted Immortality, something no other Priest or Knight of any Variant of the other Time Gods has EVER been given.

[@just_addd_water_to_your_ramen]

Except it was the Human part of akatosh (essentially shezar) that saved tamriel not the elven one.

[@Kraschenkov]

@@just_addd_water_to_your_ramen Shezar isn't Akatosh

[@just_addd_water_to_your_ramen]

@@Kraschenkov didn't say that

[@just_addd_water_to_your_ramen]

I said the shezar part of Akatosh

[@Kraschenkov]

@@just_addd_water_to_your_ramen Shezar is not a part of Akatosh. Shezar is Lorkhan and completely separate from Akatosh. Was addressed as such even in the first days of the Empire

[@kaitosevski3881]

I hope that this video means we'll be going to Solthsteim with Askeladd some time soon

[@Spike2276]

If there was an "uneasy peace" before the Night of Tears, could you consider the Falmer oathbreakers? And then the Dwemer for tricking them?

[@TheChronoshinobi]

You guys are awesome, been watching awhile and have got to say I love the growth, keep it up!!!

[@bobseltheslimeking]

It seems like Skyrim in general shows institutions that are a shadow of their former selves. The DB, College, Thieve's Guild and Companions obviously. But I like the Civil War aspect of this. The Empire stresses being founded by Talos, yet Skyrim is the first game without Septim emperors. The Stormcloaks claim to defend the Nord way of life, yet they fight for Talos, instead of Shor or the Nordic pantheon. Maybe it has something to do with the Kalpa being overdue that causes this erosion.

[@timothy8428]

Alvor: Get help from Whiterun! The Dragonborn: I promise. (Joins Dark Brotherhood instead)

[@RA-A_Stevareno]

After mentioning that you could attack all of whiterun after transforming, I never thought of that, I always went by the Jorrvaskr training area and waited

[@HK-vq1xb]

Also heavily prevalent in Skyrim are Dunmer refugees. Everything happening to them right now is what Azura foretold to the tribunal when they betrayed their oath to her and Nerevar. She gave them the greatest empire ever known, until it falls entirely to ruin. And now you see Dunmer all over Skyrim fleeing from total ruin. Solstheim is now just new Vvardenfell

[@texo456]

I believe it is very pressing on the world of elder scrolls, the idea of oathbreaking. The gods betraying shor, veloth abandoning the aldmer with his followers, the tribunal and their murdering of Nerevar. Even Tiber Septim's betrayals throughout his life, such as of Kulekain and The Underking, whomsoever you believe the Underking to be. I believe the point of the main protagonist of elder scrolls games is, more often than not, to right these broken oaths.

[@Stephen-so9oi]

Ulfric also breaks oaths to the greybeards. He also didn't break an oath as a prisoner he was tortured and manipulated in captivity.

[@badluck5647]

“I’m not questioning your honor, Lord Janos. I’m denying its existence.” - Tyrion Lannister

[@shahhaque5242]

15:53 A perfectly normal thing that mages do...They may not care about their apprentices or fellow mages but do care about increasing their own knowledge and power It is nice that this trope didn't die in Skyrim it worked wonders for morrowind (Telvanni and Mages Guild) and oblivion as well although one can make the argument that skyrim's version wasn't that severe compared to the other two....but at least it stayed in some form or another...

[@pythonhighadder7982]

@4:30 hey guys, double standards on that: they broke oath 1st therefore all bets and agreements are forfeit until new terms may be met. Thereby Ulfric is no oath breaker. He in fact acting to save the people of Skyrim from what he sees the situation to be. Namely, an Empire whom has betrayed them to their ancient enemies.

[@SPKotN]

This would make TLD the ultimate Oathkeeper, taking on the broken oaths of others to reforge the world, which is fitting from what we know of the Dragonborn

[@natebarton1038]

Video idea pretty please: discussing the complexities of the how Akatosh bestows the Dragonborn blessing, yet there are several Dragonborns that are possible Shezarines (Talos, Pelinal, The Last Dragonborn). Considering Akatosh and Shor are rivals, why would Akatosh bestow the blessing on an aspect of Shor?

[@Signaem]

The Dragonborn is John Constantine giving claim of soul to every demon. When it comes time to collect, may the demons settle out among themselves who gets final claim.

[@ChurchillGeoff]

one more is the confusion over King Olaf - although whether making up the tale is keepin your oath as a bard or abandoning it would be questionable

[@jellyfishjames3504]

As the dragonborn, you end up making so many oaths, you can't honor all of them. Your immortal soul ends up belonging to numerous daedric princes. You end up as the leader of several guilds and most players stop doing stuff for them after finishing the questline.

[@Duranous.]

That is a good analysis but I think there is another theme that is closely linked to a lot of the guilds and main plot and that is the idea of death and rebirth or decline and renewal. You see it in most of the guilds for sure but also with Aulduines true purpose. This kind of ties in to path breaking because a lot of those plot line resolve with a renewal of oaths that is implied to put each guild back on the right path (or at least their right path). Even the death of the Emperor is what some may call a dying empire feeds back into the theme, although the rebirth part has not been fulfilled yet.

[@enclave1014]

The Falmer are literally an entire race of people who are described as "The Betrayed." Of course, they first broke their oath of truce to the ancient nords. Boethia wants you to lure a friend and betray them at the pillar of sacrifice, to kill a champion who has gone astray. Mephala gives you the Ebony Blade, an artifact strengthened by the blood of friends. Namira wants a sacrifice of a priest, who you have to befriend in order to devour them.

[@tonybadaboni]

The thing about Oath breaking from evil gods, is you still made a Oath thats true to you. Your broke your own code, whatever morality you may have, an oath is indifferent.

[@SweetJazzby13]

the arch mage of the college is an oathbreaker, he promised to stay with his friends until the end, but he left them behind to lock morokei away in the labrynthian - not directly causing the college quest but no doubt a big factor that they go out of their way to show you.

[@masonmckean7682]

I looked for this dude this was the hardest oath to me cause it was an oath to his friends and colleagues

[@Snillomator]

You guys forgot the biggest oath breaker of all. He promised to guard the gate but never. That damn gate guard who let ulfric escape. Some gate guard he was.

[@ergomate9092]

In case it hasn't been said already, the Dwemer broke their oath to, or at least the trust of, the Falmer when they took them in. Of course, the Dwemer had even more going against them than just this, but it definitely adds another perspective on just how willing they could be to take advantage of others for their own questionable gain. It might be interesting to extrapolate this to their actions on Morrowind as well, or even the idea of the breaking of oaths to the series as a whole. From Jagar Tharn, to the death of King Lysandus, the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur, and even Uriel Septim VII's illegitimate son, Martin, the Elder Scrolls is chock full of significant betrayals.

[@pythonhighadder7982]

@11:00 Yes it is the Divine getting their come-up'ums :)

[@profdracko]

Every single Daedric quest in Skyrim is either instigated by or includes a betrayal at some point. For Azura, you can betray her and her priestess to keep the Star corrupted. Boethiah's champion abandoned her, so she sends you to kill him and warns you not to make his mistakes. In Vile's quest you can betray Barbas by killing him to keep the axe. Mora's quest (in the base game) has you conspiring against Septimus with him, as he tells you up front that once the box is opened Septimus has outlived his usefulness In Hircine's quest you can betray Sinding to slay him and take the Savior's Hide. Malacath's quest is all about Yamarz betraying the Orcish code, but at the end he tries to betray YOU as well. At the end of Dagon's quest you can betray and kill Silus for the Razor. Mephala really goes without saying. That's her whole thing. Meridia is the only one with no real link, but you could stretch it and say that Malkoran betrayed the sanctity of her temple with his necromancy. Although her demanding you "become her light" or whatever make a lot of people want to betray HER, too. Chuck the sword in a river. Ignore the Beacon as long as possible. Molag Bal's quest starts with him forcing you to kill the Vigilant who first asked for your help. Namira has you charming and sacrificing (and eating) the priest of Arkay who asked you to help him. Noctural has Mercer's nonsense ect. Peryite has Orchendor's nonsense ect. Sanguine has you betraying your oath of marriage. Technically. Sheo is the oathbreaker in his quest, since he abandoned the Isles for a "vacation" of indeterminate length. Finally Vaermina was covered. Erandur, nonsense, ect.

[@victoriousf.i.g.3311]

The Skaal in Morrowind go into more detail about the split between "True Nords" and Imperial Nords. It's fair to say that the Skaal would see Ulfric's comparatively cushy life in civilized Skyrim as an affront identical to how Ulfric saw the Empire abandoning Talos. It's ironic that the Nords of Skyrim, who already abandoned their gods, are now all up in arms about the Empire abandoning their god.

[@samuelhaverghast2442]

I see the Skyrim as the end of everything we knew, and something new is about to begin, with Oblivion being the blow that began the end.

[@7gone7]

I’ve never realised it but The Last Dragon Born is a Deus Ex Machina. Pretty much throughout the story he’s the divine intervention that saves the day

[@cyrogelderbrain]

These videos always make me want to play Skyrim again! How did you mod your game to look that good?

[@djwithdk7084]

Back to another episode of buff chads talk about ES.

[@marcush4741]

I've been playing skyrim in all my free time over the last few weeks. This popped up and I am afraid I'm gonna notice some overwhelming flaw that I've been pleasantly missing.

[@jellyfishjames3504]

You're allowed to betray the Greybeards by killing Parthunax, who himself betrayed the Dragons by siding with humanity and teaching them how to shout.

[@Spacefrisian]

Oh the burning of King Olaf also falls in this idea.

[@teyanuputorti7927]

I never thought of it this way and the only thing I ever notice was Skyrim was falling apart. Thanks for going in depth on it and I hope by Elder Scrolls 6 things get better. That the Dragonborn did right alot of things that are degrading.

[@grayfox9191]

According to sorine jurard, the old dawnguard were oathbreakers. Like they saw how powerful the vampire they were holding prisoner, they became vampires themselves. I wish they had fleshed out the history of the dawnguard more in the game. I mean, here's the biggest castle in skyrim with a vampire hunting army in it, you'd think someone somewhere would've written something about its history.

[@BobTyler1028]

I have found that all but two of the daedric quests have some form of: oathing breaking, abandonment of duty, or betrayal. the only ones i could not make fit was Hermaeus Mora and meridia. Here's what i did find Azura: you can betray her, by making the black star. Boethea: her champion abandoned his duty. Clavicus vile: he betrays everyone. The father, the vampires, and his dog Hircine: the werewolf ‘betrays’ the little girl and you can betray either the werewolf or hercine Malacath: the chief broke his oath and the chief will betray you. Mehrunes dagon: you can betray the museum npc Mephala: (the intended quest was full of betrayals) the reward wants you to betray those who trust you. Molag bal: make that daedric priest to betray his lord. Namira: you betray the priest of arkey or you betray the coven of namira Peryite: his champion betrays him. Sanguine: (this one is funny) you break your oath to the hagraven. Sheograth: (this is a bit of a stretch) the high king abandoned his duty due to his insanity. Vaermina: her priest betrays her, then you can betray the priest.

[@KyleWilson96]

I feel like TES 6 will explain the choices in Skyrim like the civil war with another Dragon Break

[@UlaKapala]

I reckon Trebonius may have been even worse than Aren due to simply being dumb as a rock.

[@jefthereaper]

Best joke is that at the end of Skyrim, your character is the leader or figure of great renown of all major factions, but is likely to just screw off to somewhere else like most other characters in the past games. (like how the Oblivion protagonist went to mantle Sheogorath, leaving all guilds to pretty much collapse.)

[@baistman]

Great video living this kind Of content

[@mariahstanczak2887]

Ulfric also betrayed the Greybeards. Just by running off to the great war in the first place, he broke his pacifism promise.

[@frankhorrigan8175]

Dusk at the market, love the ost

[@SpaceAngelMewtwo]

Savos Aren really leads the College of Winterhold as if he were a Master of House Telvanni. And all you have to do is talk to Neloth to get a good sense of whether or not Savos is truly Master material. Short answer, he's not. Also, the broken oath is Ancano's in the College of Winterhold. Ancano broke his oath to the Thalmor when he decided to take the power of the Eye of Magnus for himself.

[@Vnigma17]

In retrospect, or hindsight, or whatever you want to call it. Every point Skyrim, almost deals with an Oath breaker, or a reforging of trust/repairing of a broken Oath. Just to list off the examples a bit. The Four Main Guilds each have someone who betrayed, or broke a promise/oath. Some not in the ways you probably would have expected. (Spoilers ahead, for anyone who has yet to play. But at this point we probably all have.) - Thieves Guild, as said in the Video. Mercer stole the Key, killed Gallus, and broke his oath to nocturnal. - Astrid, later on down the line of the quest, sells you out, and tries to spare the Dark Brotherhood. And breaks her oath to both her, "Family," and Sithis. - The Companions, in a sense. Both Skjor, and Kodlak, both break an Oath. Skjor to the Companions, and the guild as a whole, accepting the Power of Hircine, and relishing in the Hunt, more than what it means to be a Warrior. And Kodlak, broke his oath, and Allegiance to Hircine, and an oath taken away back from before his time. (This being a full debatable scenario to consider on if either of these two oath breakers.) - The College of Winterhold, The only thing here that can possibly be Considered is probably Savos Aren, and his Betrayal to his Friends at Labyrinthian. But maybe if we can stretch it a bit. Maybe we can look at more than just Savos. But the College as a Whole. In this case, I would consider the following possibly an entirety of possibilities for Oath Breakers. - The Auger of Dunlain, - The Four Students Massacred under the College, - Ancano, for going against the Thalmor, in his own pursuit for Power, - The College itself, in forgetting it's teachings/ways of Shalidor. (If you want to consider the Journal from Myrwatch into this theory or not.) - Even that guy that took the Books, and ran off from the College. All of these are debatable though. Cause even then some of them may not hold up to the theory oaths being broken. But aside from that, you also have some of the minor stuff. That I guess we can also nitpick a bit.

[@BlackLotusOfficial3]

The blades broke their oath to follow the Dragonborn when Delphine told me to kill Paarthunax and I told her I didn’t want too.

[@mikehunter9780]

Fudgemuppet are practically Nords. Hitting the gym much lads?!

[@drakengarfinkel3133]

I always thought the theme of Skyrim was being haunted by the past. All the ruins, the factions, the quests-everyone has an unhealthy obsession with the past. The Dragonborn is unique as they can move into the future, literally turning the blood and bones of ancient greatness into arms to fight their enemies.

[@therakshasan8547]

Savos Aren [ Arch Mage ] was not the arch mage when he lead his fellow students into Labyrinthian .

[@alanouellette]

This is an absolutely Awesome Discussion. Thank You so much for your content over the years. Love your channel!

[@thidios]

... you sure it isnt about duties instead of vows? All vows create duties, duties to those who patron you, duties to your nation, duties to your family, duties to who lead you, who are lead by you... But not all duties are vows... some just come with the job (like the archmage) And in all the things you said. There were people who refused to follow their duties for self gain they got all the rights but didnt follow their duties. They wanted to make the cake and eat it too. Leading to their divine(?) retributions.

[@jonathancollins1868]

I aways thought Skyrim was about fate. Do you question it? Accept it? Work against it?

[@mohammadalighani5213]

sooooo...basically: 1. Stay true to your roots, 2. be a responsible person who doesn't just abandon his/her duty.