Full Stone Age Bow Build Tutorial

[@mikeg4365]

He is telling us how to do what he makes money with. The only thing i can say is: Thank you, this is by far the best bowbuilding tutorial I have ever seen on the internet.

[@huntprimitive9918]

thanks very much for the kind words. very glad you liked it!

[@Islamandjihad]

All L

[@tonymaurice4157]

@@huntprimitive9918 It seems that most woods will not make a bow. even though bowmakers will say I can make a bow out of anything. But then all they pick is Hickory and Osage.

[@LeMayJoseph]

Indeed he is! He’s stated in the past that keeping these skills alive is more important to him than just making money from it.

[@jaimeechartea8232]

Love this comment

[@warpoet90]

This is ten times better than anything I ever watched on Discovery or History channel when I was growing up. KZbin is so much better than TV.

[@huntprimitive9918]

Thank you very much! I totally agree with you as well

[@tikkidaddy]

That's the truth if I ever heard it😂

[@ack_my_leg1228]

Can't agree more

[@mattlacdao3807]

We all know that buuuuut stop saying it cuz they’ll make longer adds in online videos Hell, i thinks Its already strarting toooo it went from 5s to 10s

[@dariuswhite2543]

Just seen ur new osage bow build. Just wondering when u use ur draw knife do u use it with the bevel edge up or down

[@G-and-J-Chapel-Artworks]

Three minutes in and already more detailed than any other bow building tutorial. I've reviewed a lot of them trying to learn how to make my own bow. I'm hoping to get my family into a homesteading lifestyle, living primarily off the land.

[@pixelpixelpixel3181]

stop smoking meth my friend and get a job

[@revan552]

I love that you made a proper, full length and detailed tutorial. Most other bow-making "tutorials" are like 15-20 minutes long and sure they give you the general idea, but this is a masterpiece!

[@McDonaldsWrath18]

Hey. I'm writing a fantasy novel, and you have helped me with soooo much of these fine details and applications. I'd love to quote you as a source in it. You cannot imagine how hard it is to find quality videos like these. I enjoy the shit out of your channel. God bless, and get back to me if you can.

[@utherthelightbringer6269]

What's the book about

[@arooster7899]

What's the book called

[@horatiocarillo1068]

what's the book called

[@grungesponge9910]

How's the book going?

[@malachiheidigregg4106]

Very nice how much 😀

[@robertpattinson2065]

Being 1st nations from the Yukon gave me bow making experience and I didn't think the technology we use was so similar to other regions and cultures, but it is,everything you have shown is pretty much the way I learned from my uncle.

[@MountainGuerrilla]

at one point in the distant past all people lived about the same, they all had the same resources, the same game and the same lifestyle. It may have been hundreds of thousands of years ago, but at one point we were all the same.

[@GSBConstantine]

@@MountainGuerrilla Technically what's different now?

[@MountainGuerrilla]

@@GSBConstantine I meant in reference to the First Nations comment above, about methods and technology being so similar between different regions. What I meant was there would only be a few ways to optimize bows and arrows and different people would eventually come to very similar conclusions given enough time.

[@octaviacoquus8857]

Not surprising. There's a best way to make a bow, and one dud can figure it out through practice, so most bowmaking traditions (before large-scale composites and whatnot) are more or less the same.

[@pcka12]

In my home region (Somerset UK) there are vast reclaimed marshes (locally called 'the Moors') in those moors there have been found ancient bows from the stone age period, very similar to the native American bows, but in UK there is no Hickory or Osage Orange but there is Yew, Hazel & Ash, there was Elm.

[@cmoore7780]

GREETINGS FROM NORTH ALABAMA This is one of the BEST primitive bow builds on the internet much less UTube! Wealth of knowledge in this build and channel . Thank you SO very much sir.

[@CliKnight]

By a wonderful happenstances. I found your channel two days ago. I was trying to find videos that didn't suck,on how "and why" to make an atal atal. When I found one of your videos. After what seems like a waste of many hours and videos. Yours. Was the most informative I have seen. Everything you spoke of and shown, made it all come together. Not just a silly Bushcraft want to be. Hoping to be a KZbin star. But a real here's why,and now how to. Your passion really comes through in your. I am now binge-watching the hell out of your channel. I am an avid woodsman/Primitive how to person. I find myself more and more trying to learn the primitive waves without tools. Your channel just makes sense. Thank you, thank you so much for taking the time and effort to make these videos. Getting the opportunity to spend time with you and learn skills from you first hand, is now on my bucket list! Please know that there's people like me that you've reached, you are now my Yoda. Please I beg you keep making these videos. Thank you again so very much. Clí Knight

[@huntprimitive9918]

Thank you, I greatly appreciate your kind words and taking the time to write that to me. Very glad my videos are able to help. Best of luck and have lots of fun on your primitive building and hunting journey!

[@GenesisXTRM]

Finally starting to get out in the woods and learn about the wildlife around me, as soon as i make my first bow, I'm making a video and putting it here for you to watch cause people like you have inspired me to find freedom in nature

[@huntprimitive9918]

thanks very much and best of luck on your adventures

[@jesschambers6551]

I have been binge watching all things on this channel over the past few weeks. I have been walking my property to find a nice maple stave to start a bow, and will be ordering a flintknapping kit soon as well. Thank you for giving us this wisdom it took so long for you to gain. It is nice to get closer to my Native American heritage by building a true representation of their bows

[@kerryirwin5581]

I don't think I've ever watched a more interesting tutorial in my life Congratulations absolutely superb.

[@malachiheidigregg4106]

Wanted to make bows my whole life and live like caveman saw this video loved it and went out and cut down oak for bow now I have around 7 homemade bows learned a lot from gill. you are the goat 🐐 and a massive influence on my life

[@Requiemrexx]

See, this is what the video from the super popular channel How to Make Everything should have been. Instead it was people half-assing the entire process rather than researching and pursuing a genuine interest. This channel is amazing. One of the higher quality historical ones, for sure.

[@huntprimitive9918]

thank you very much. I greatly appreciate it

[@GLRAKER]

This guy is a pro. Best primitive hunter vids on the web. He has this subject mater spot on.

[@huntprimitive9918]

much appreciated. thank you very much

[@LeMayJoseph]

The incredible amount of time and care put into this using the stone tools makes me really appreciate my knives and folding saws!

[@mahinafern8714]

I'm building my first ELB out of a beautiful piece of pomegranate and I've been devouring your videos for inspiration! Thanks for having these resources available like this

[@briantaulbee6452]

every day. Dont usually watch 2 hr long videos but this was worth it and very enlightening

[@huntprimitive9918]

very glad to hear it, thank you

[@stefflus08]

It is so satisfying having another bowyer agree with my tillering eye. Fantastic build.

[@jefffloyd665]

The Mr. Rogers of Bushcraft. I'm a recently reinvigorated amateur buschrafter and I have been falling in love with your videos, you've definitely gained a new subscriber! Thank you for your time and effort, I hope it is obvious that it does not go unappreciated. Greetings from one fellow Floridian to another!

[@huntprimitive9918]

thank you very much!

[@tom7o18]

Well that was certainly worth 2hrs. of my life. Thank you for being the Light on how these things were accomplished so long ago. Much appreciated.

[@huntprimitive9918]

thank you very much for following along. Much appreciate the kind words

[@dariuswhite2543]

@@huntprimitive9918 the atlatal banner stone could of been used to prepare the diameter and roundness of the dart as well as to check the spine of the shaft. THEN THE SAME METHOD COULD OF BEEN APPLIED TO MAKE ARROW SHAFTS. I KNOW THIS POST WAS A LITTLE OF TOPIC

[@gideonkugbonu9768]

Somebody, not a bowyer of your standing, suggests lemon tree for bow wood. What do you think, please?

[@bondvagabond42]

Such a great channel, if I had had this video when I was a kid trying to learn how to do this from library books, experimentation, and snippets of info from the few people I met (like one per decade, lol) who knew something about it, it would have saved me a lot of frustration, hah. Just a couple things I wanted to say to beginners, he touches on them, but I think he's so good at this he's not worrying about them as much: get multiple bow staves, you are very likely to break one when you are first learning. A shorter bow stave is easier to find with good grain/few knots, but a longer bow is more forgiving of beginner quality of tillering, each part of the bow limb has to bend less with a longer bow. It's easier for me to see the flat spots that need more scraping by looking down the length of the bow, when it's loosely strung for tillering, than looking at it from the side, so maybe try that if it's hard for you to see the flat spots that need more scraping. Scraping a little off the belly of the bow is the same as scraping a lot off the edges of the limbs, so if you are getting close and you are worried you'll take too much off the belly, try scraping a little off the edges instead. And finally, unlike in the movies, even if you are an avid hunter and know lots of hunters, you have probably never met anyone who can stalk up to and kill a deer with a stone age bow they made, like this dude does. If that's your goal, just realize how amazing it is that he has taken the time to pass that info on. I had worked at it for 30 years out west, with mule deer and coastal black tails who are way less "chatty" than white tails, and deer hunting them is much more like sniping, and I'd just about given up on my life goal of tracking, sneaking up on a deer and getting them with a bow I made myself. But I moved to New England a few years ago, watched another great channel, mountaindeer, and using their tips I snuck up on lots of white tails my very first hunting season here. Their method is to just sound like a deer walking through the woods, with the pace of your steps, and your calling, rather than trying to be completely silent, like I had tried to do since I was a kid out west. Anyway, thanks again for making these super helpful videos, hopefully something in my wall of text comment is helpful to a beginner.

[@danielaimhof5362]

How is your wood so straight and soft . I live in Africa and I tried making a bow for 3 years until I find a straight peace of Kapflieder from our Neighbors. J gunt rabbits and pigeons with it and I'm PROUD . I love your videos and keep it up

[@badger31738]

Thank you, I’ve been wanting to make a bow with primitive tools, but wasn’t sure what to use. I am really exited about this new project. Thank you for such an informative video. It’s the best one that I have found on KZbin.

[@oneer8435]

Im a flint knapper is my strong skill. For you to use nothing but primitive tools on this fine hickory bow i am amazed. Dam good job.

[@bravofoxtrotllc6817]

@Hunter Ansorge Not everyone is from the USA dipshit, stop making the rest of us look like assholes

[@rune5416]

@Hunter Ansorge poor etiquette makes me puke

[@watchdogkennels5242]

Your living the dream my friend. And, you just might be the best Bow builder out here!

[@jackp492]

Your my guy, finally someone doing practicality over impact keep it up and much love from Norfolk, it's flint central here and now I know how to have a very fun summer

[@richardcontinijr9661]

I've made 3 long bows before and had fun doing it but this is a whole new level. I'm going to have to try making one with stone age tools. Thanks for the inspiration.

[@tedalblas7517]

He is the only person I can lose 2 hours watching and not only enjoy but learn something cool to try

[@twintwo1429]

So good, amazingly better than most. I am a great fan of your work and info. Thanks for the primitive education. I am a primitive Bowyer also. Your work reinforces mine. You are on a higher level than me though. I am older than you, by a good 15 years Hope to see you in video when you are my age. Thanks.

[@huntprimitive9918]

thank you very much. I greatly appreciate it!

[@robertjohntaylor2369]

Thanks Ryan, best primitive bow build yet.I love your down to earth stile. Congratulations from UK.

[@huntprimitive9918]

thanks very much, I greatly appreciate it

[@eboramegalithica9192]

This is too good to be true! Best video on KZbin! Thank you from Portugal!

[@huntprimitive9918]

thank you very much! Great that you enjoy it

[@electronicfreak1111]

HuntPrimitive If I make a discord server so people can ask questions about napping and hunting and stuff can I promote it on your Channel

[@dariuswhite2543]

@@huntprimitive9918 can u use shellac on a snake backed bow

[@lonnieyoder4284]

@@huntprimitive9918 any tips for still hunting whitetails in Ohio?the terrain is mainly leafy forest floor and is very crunchy in the fall.how would the Chippewas and Shawnees have done it? I keep getting busted?

[@haritchie3460]

Gift from a teacher Share knowledge. Reading a bow from raw wood to survival tool .. here what to look for. At cuts where not to cut. Strong weapon building Trust and respect thousands years of knowledge.

[@kelleygoodale6244]

Literally the best bow making vid I’ve ever seen and I’ve seen ALOT

[@huntprimitive9918]

thank you very much!

[@biagiosancetta8876]

This is just great, thank you! I only just started thinking about making a bow and have seen a lot of videos. Many assuming a store bought board, with or without glass, leather, sinew etc., laminated or not but your instruction covers everything I wanted to know. I may not use stone and antler tools but I'm sold on going from limb to stave to finished bow. Thanks again!

[@bravofoxtrotllc6817]

Pretty kick ass video, would like to see more on making arrows, fletchings, even the bow string.... Nice

[@TheEzzieboy]

When stripping bark, make sure you get at least on strip from the whole length of the stave. Then, when deciding where the middle of the stave is, fold the bark strip exactly in half, and use that to measure for the exact center of the stave.

[@denzel4552]

makes sense

[@jackp492]

Nice tip

[@dotkillske]

@@jackp492 it's just half a tip.

[@gilbertrainey2514]

Thank you for this amazing video. I am very pleased to see your wok. With Stone Age tools.

[@exdy-eb3dv]

You don't know how much time i've search for a video like this one! Thank you! You're the best!!!😍😍

[@SLAYER-nm5zw]

you are special man,be proud of your self

[@shawnthorsgaard1388]

Great video. I hope I learned as much as I think I did. I'll definitely watch this three or four more times!

[@huntprimitive9918]

thank you very much!

[@tomminou]

I'm really amazed to see what you can manage to do with stone age tools, which are much more efficient than one would think. Now I feel like trying to build mine! Thank you for sharing your knowlegde. I just discovered this channel, love the content. Cheers from Belgium

[@willardtk]

Now this is a man I'd go camping with

[@shakoiatenhawithacrossjaco9051]

I’ve made a bow before using nothing but flint. I wish I had watched this video before because I would have learned some tips to make it way faster and easier on myself 😂. I appreciate the work you do. It reaaaallly takes some dedication to want to work with these all natural tools

[@acehanson7231]

Thank you very much for a wonderful video. I just found your channel and I can't stop watching. You are an amazing shot with these primitive weapons!!

[@fabricio-agrippa-zarate]

A look into our past. Great video! How many people from native cultures are willing to change metal for stone? Experimental archeology is amazing!

[@Ordinaire.]

Тетива, Лук, Труды, Процесс изготовления -Замечательные!

[@andreasnowack8014]

Hey, as always great content, nice to see that full process from start to the end. You're making the best videos on KZbin in my opinion. Keep on!

[@huntprimitive9918]

thanks very much!

[@andreasnowack8014]

@@huntprimitive9918 you're very welcome! By the way if got an idea for you're antler adze, maybe you could use it for working on a deer hide in the process of tanning? But there is anyways the same problem when I am working a hide I use a tool pretty similar to your antler chisel.

[@tonymaurice4157]

@@huntprimitive9918 I always make white wood bows wider than Osage. And they shoot just as well.

[@ParkourEh]

It's quite interesting to see that despite fiberglass-laminations, they might only put out 120-130fps with similar draw weight. But yet a piece of wood, shaped to bend with stone, designed and crafted entirely by human hands can loose arrows in the 150s and more is humbling and cool as hell.

[@arunmoses2197]

I am a kid, and I really want to make a bow so I can hunt some rabbits in my backyard :) (Your vids are awesome!)

[@thatoneslaveowner]

I’ve made one for me and my sister and we are both really good archers they shoot good I have woods like 1 mile away from me and me and her made a camp there I made a teepee and we just hunt birds and rabbits but I can hear them but can’t find them

[@arunmoses2197]

@@thatoneslaveowner That is very cool!

[@Luca-xv3oy]

@Richard Manfield 35 pounds is more than enough to hunt rabbits tbh a lot of people would feel comfortable hunting deer with 35 pounds

[@jhky9611]

As an experienced bow hunter and I have made a self bow myself, listening to you and understanding every thing you said made this very interesting. I made my bow from Hedge Apple which is Osage Orange as you know I'm sure. Just a thought , there is a formula for foot pounds of energy. Feet per second of projectile times weight of projectile. anyway there is also a known number of foot pounds of energy, that will kill I believe any animal in North America. I used to know all that, forgot what the formula is, ask google I guess, anyway that would be interesting to put on film. You know what your talking about, that's for sure. I 've enjoyed this video and others I seen that you've done. Thanks you for your in depth explanations of what ever your doing or making, Great video's.

[@davidbyrne6106]

Fantastic video Ryan, thanks so much for your shared knowledge. I don't think most people will realize this gem you are giving them ! Had it been around , it should have gone on Voyager !

[@huntprimitive9918]

thank you very much, I appreciate the kind words and you following along. Very glad you enjoyed it

[@jeremi8136]

Greetings from Poland 🇵🇱😉

[@its2point072]

Watched the first half hour during my run, passed the time way better than music

[@philipbarrick4149]

Thanks for the tutorial and documentary on how to make a primitive Bow primitive tools that was excellent

[@huntprimitive9918]

thanks very much

[@jesseherbert2585]

Outstanding! Thanks for sharing this and demonstrating such dedication. I'll be building one this summer under the tutelage of Arthur Haines, can't wait!

[@huntprimitive9918]

Glad it was helpful! have fun

[@electronicfreak1111]

Jesse Herbert how did you comment over 20 hours before it was released?

[@huntprimitive9918]

@@electronicfreak1111 I had it linked in the description of the build and hunt version of this, and ppl could access this video a day early

[@electronicfreak1111]

HuntPrimitive oh ok I must’ve missed it

[@jesseherbert2585]

@@electronicfreak1111 shoot, I was hoping I had figured out how to time travel and could learn from the "primitive" masters themselves. Well it matters not, we are indeed fortunate to have noble warriors like our friend here from Hunt Primitive. Respect!

[@whiterabit09]

Brilliant video, helped me to understand a bit more about the details of the bow i bought from you....

[@nicholaspowroznick4322]

This video is top notch i love your primitive videos

[@huntprimitive9918]

thank you very much!

[@Peretz..]

Amazing how a 2 hour long video just flies when you really enjoy its contents. Great work. Q: Did you ever worked with guava wood or heard anything particular about it?

[@tathagat.69]

Bamboo is very good then guava

[@newgamingcompany7998]

Mano faz de arueira madeira muito dura e bem flexível quando pequena, do tamanho que ele usou aí da certinho, eu uso ela e da super certo.

[@downlow1203]

Another excellent and very educational video. Thank you. Looking forward to more. That's one nice hunting bow!!

[@ZyonSigil]

I got a piece of Eastern red Cedar Wood that was growing in my back yard. its about 7 feet in length with no branches coming from the shaft. I'm going to try making a good bow out of it but first im gonna practice on green wood to get the concept down as to not ruin the beautiful wood i have. The Red orange of the wood is gorgeous and i cant wait to try my hand at it.

[@jacobsherk4074]

Awesome! I really appreciate these in-depth videos you do

[@southpark1you0]

how would you store some of this stuff in the wild? bear fat, bees wax, pine resin? the prep for just a bow is a lot of work. admirable.

[@GottliebGoltz]

It's easy to see You've paid some dues. Thank You. G-G

[@sublustrum100]

замечательное видео и потрясающее мастерство владения каменными инструментами.

[@dennyroszell8744]

Very impressive! Your skills and knowledge are something to be proud of! Awesome bow.

[@huntprimitive9918]

Thank you very much!

[@m.o.s6275]

I started new bow, but i just use axe and knife and this give good tips for it too

[@aristotlev]

Phenomenal video. So much detail. Thank you!

[@dakotahasley7543]

Best video I have seen for making a bow. I have my I just cut a piece of hickory two weeks ago and just order your book. really enjoy your channel

[@huntprimitive9918]

Thank you very much for both the support and following along!

[@andrewpeters8690]

This tutorial has been incredibly helpful, thank you!

[@danebender6166]

awesome video Ryan 👍 thanks for sharing!

[@dennisjohansson5716]

Really cool video! Authentic stuff! Maybe ill try to make one sometime!

[@TheHouseton]

1.75x speed is nice. You can understand everything he's saying and it isn't as long as normal speed. 1.5x is also very nice! Great video!

[@Phryguye]

What an utterly fascinating video. Subscribed.

[@calebswanson462]

I just carefully re watched this agsin So apritiated, andThank you,and🎉 Happy new year!

[@anonymoususer3535]

The comment below me at the moment is talking about how he's teaching us how to do what he makes money from, not only that but for free, people like him are the ones who save thousands of generations of knowledge from being lost to time

[@slhughes1267]

I'm reminded of the summer where a few friends of mine and I built English style longbows. Mine ended up being 7' long (I'm 5'9" with a measured 7'3" wingspan) hickory on hickory bow with a 45# draw weight. *Fast* bow. Curtesy of my ridiculous arm length, I keep wishing for 40" arrows for a comfortable draw. One of my primitive skills acquaintances made a black walnut self-bow. Not sure I would have attempted such a thing.

[@stans1313]

Perfect. Hi from Russia. I liked you channel.

[@santosdho]

Excellent video as always, congratulations brother!

[@huntprimitive9918]

thanks very much

[@peacefulsleep7751]

So much knowledge in this video

[@magicdaveable]

I use Beeswax/Lambfat to control drying. Up here on the Southern End of the Adirondacks finding Hickory is not easy. I use Ash and Sugar Maple saplings. After "shaving" the stave round and parallel end to end and has dried sufficiently the staves get fire hardened. Then wprked tp shape and tillered. My bows are built to my requirements. They average 45-50 lbs. and considering their primitive nature they are quite fast. I began making "sapling bows" over 60 years ago as an youngster in Elementary School. I learned to fire harden and straighten arrows from an old retired railroad engineer that was a native of North America. I did not use stone tools. I used a couple of hatchets and a fixed blade Old Hickory butcher knife. (My hunting knife). I also "borrowed" one of my Dad's draw knife.

[@chrislamond3854]

super awesome and informive video!!! really enjoyed watcching this, may even try tthat proccess on some iron bark i have on my block

[@huntprimitive9918]

thanks very much! and best of luck on your build

[@puregameplay7916]

you should do contests and draws for these bows you make, I want this bow so badly xD

[@hattorihanzo7595]

Thank you for your awesome videos!!!

[@sharpfactory3705]

Amazing there is so much knowlege in this video thank you

[@russell2952]

1:14:15 - Watching you saw right on your knee makes my eye twitch. I half expected the next scene to be you demonstrating how to close a wound with deer sinew sutures.

[@maleindividual7437]

Im now thinking of the equivalent of stone age bench tools, a large rock to rub against, another large one for scraping etc, all stuck in the ground of otherwise difficult to move seems to me to be worth a video worth exploring, i have various rocks i use in my garden just because they're free and work just fine, all collected with the intent to use as a part of my wider 'normal' tool kit

[@matthias7522]

Exceptionally good content, just wow! Thank you!

[@aaronengland8289]

At 47:00 when you started talking about elm's interlocking grain the first thing I thought of was when I tried building a bow from sweetgum. I don't think it was self hate that drove me to attempt it (not once but several times, actually) but sometimes I wonder lmao.

[@cameronfort7313]

You're the best stone age builer

[@huntprimitive9918]

thank you very much!

[@magicianssciencelabandindu606]

It's a very good and educative video

[@lucidd4103]

This is an amazing build and video.

[@huntprimitive9918]

thank you very much

[@lnfirefang6207]

Absolutely amazing. Thank you Ryan!!!

[@johnny30806]

Excellent build along 👍

[@desertwanderer6310]

thanks, this video has helped me thoroughly.

[@terryfinley7760]

Very good job! I love hickory bows.

[@huntprimitive9918]

thanks very much

[@Dss-bm3rz]

I've always wondered what happened to Al from home improvement. Nice work

[@tikkidaddy]

How I wish modern day buscrafters would learn to use the simple wood wedge and chisels for splitting wood instead of breaking $500 knives. Oh I have my khukuri (great all purpose knife BTW) or my axe or hatchet. Yeah you do but I have one important question...if you make a simple wood wedge or two and you beat the ears off that thing and split that log...isn't that better than blowing up your bush knife??😂 who cares if you bust a wood wedge?? Make another one. I wish I had access here to some really nice chert and antler (moose) for billets😂😂I live in TN. That's just one of the reasons I love your channel brother. You take the time to show how to use simple tools properly. Smoking wood like the one you featured I imagine would also probably include the benefit of keeping the bugs from chewing your bow staves up, along with whatever they used to finish them. Some of those sap and charcoal mixtures are amazing. The Nepalese use a traditional mixture like that for epoxy and you have to beat that stuff off with a hammer if you manage to mess up a khukuri handle😂 I realize it's two different cultures but it just blows the mind what can be done, yet we here are so "advanced"

[@efrainbarron1626]

Good work Ryan

[@nicholaspowroznick4322]

Thnks for all you do ryan

[@huntprimitive9918]

thanks for following along

[@gibmelson7628]

what a work ! prima, respect !!