V2G: Does It Make Sense To Give Energy Back To The Grid?!

[@antoineleloutre3151]

Possibly the most underrated potential of EVs.

[@kyknekeer]

You do know what governments/companies will do when they figure this out, milk it or tax it dry till there's no more use for it

[@_TrueDesire_]

I'm against it, it's better to buy a dedicated home battery that is way cheaper than ruining the BEV's battery worth €20-40,000 alone. If I would buy a used EV in the future I want a guarantee that it hasn't been used V2G/anything.

[@Rich.enDorseit]

@@_TrueDesire_ having seen other videos on the subject, it has been suggested that the research is showing ev batteries actually benefit from charging and then slowly releasing the energy back to the grid or home.

[@chidorirasenganz]

@@_TrueDesire_ also batteries don’t cost that much and will cost less in the future

[@n.brucenelson5920]

@@_TrueDesire_ I think you need to look into this more deeply. I don't think your claim is anywhere near correct. Just over 21,000 british pounds will buy you a complete Aptera with 25 kWh battery and when V2G is standardized, make it an even better value proposition than purchasing a Powerwall, for instance.

[@gigabyte2248]

Great video! The one thing missing was discussion of battery degradation. Li ion battery degradation is not as simple as the number of cycles, and the two things that cause the most degradation are: 1. rapid charging (or rapid discharging) while the battery is too hot or cold, and 2. charging up to 100% (or discharging down to 0%) and waiting there. Point #1 can be easily addressed: the 7kW that single-phase infrastructure in the UK can handle is child's play for an EV battery. They've got >100kW motors and can often rapid charge at >100kW too, so 7kW is nothing, even when very cold or hot. As for point #2, this is why some EVs have an option to charge only up to 80%. Some don't (like my Nissan Leaf), so plugging in overnight will probably be a very-small bad time for the battery, as it charges up as high as it can. V2X systems have to have a complex negotiation (like a rapid charger, which is how the charger knows the battery's state of charge) and the software platforms backing bidirectional chargers usually keep the battery between 20% and 80% by default (with the options to charge up to 100% if requested). This is what OVO and Octopus did with their trials. I've had a couple of chats with Mike at Fully Charged Live. He's a great guy, but I think he's being a bit conservative with AC V2G's prospects. A unidirectional on-board charger is already kitted up with 1 diode and 1 transistor per phase leg (2 diodes and 2 transistors for single-phase, 3 diodes and 3 transistors for 3-phase). This forms a so-called 'totem pole' active front end, steadying the >2kW power draw (there is also a 'bridged conventional' layout, but this needs a load of extra diodes so I doubt any automakers are using it). The bidirectional form of the totem pole converter swaps the diodes for transistors and... that's about it! It's the same layout as a DC-to-AC inverter. You need to update the controller so that it can run all 4 or 6 of the transistors in both modes, and make sure that the DC-to-DC stage is also bidirectional but, fundamentally, there are only a few components that need swapping for ones that are barely more expensive. Hyundai appear to have used exactly this solution in the Ioniq 5 and 6, Kia EV6 and Genesis EVs. That V2L function is from a bidirectional on-board charger! Chipmakers (the end I approached this from) are super-keen to get their SiC MOSFETs into this application, and already sell 6.6kW bidirectional charger demo units. The biggest impediment is having to redesign your on-board charger. Hyundai bit the bullet, and seem to be reaping the benefits. I really hope that the on-board charger of 2030 is a bidirectional 22kW 3-phase charger. Hyundai have proved that bidirectional is possible and Renault have proven that 22kW is possible. If you use DC V2G, you're no longer talking about swapping a handful of diodes for transistors, you've got to build the whole thing from scratch. The Wallbox Quasar costs about £6000, and apparently has some issues with overheating, even after all that engineering and hardware. For a low(ish)-power 7kW home wallbox, that's much too expensive for mass deployment. Many of the latest AC home charge points (updated to comply with new UK government regulations) already support AC V2G communications (look for 'ISO 15118 ready', this is the protocol AC V2G and CCS V2G are using), making AC V2G much more effective at home. Where I see DC V2G being successful is in commercial fleets and/or anywhere there are 22kW or 50kW DC chargers. If you're looking for 22kW or 50kW charging (maybe at a delivery van depot, or for a heavier bus or lorry fleet to charge overnight), you'll probably want to make that DC anyway, so why not upgrade that unidirectional charger to bidirectional? As discussed above, the cost difference is not large. As you might be able to tell, I am *super enthusiastic* about V2G. With V2G, load peaks will no longer be a thing, and it solves the intermittency of solar power pretty much completely. I would recommend anyone getting a Hyundai, Kia or Genesis EV to add V2L - they're only a dealership software update away from AC V2H and V2G. I will be watching Volvo/Polestar and Volkswagen's bidirectional developments with bated breath. And I really, really hope that home V2G will be online by next winter. It needs some organisational co-operation, but all the pieces are there and ready to put together! I can't wait!

[@deltajohnny]

Awesome comment!! 👏👏

[@steveholliday1599]

Great comment. MG also do V2L, to add to the list.

[@EugeneLambert]

Thanks, that's very informative. It would be great to make more use of the batteries in my EVs, which spend most of their life doing nothing. And if it was done via the AC type 2 connector, as you say I can't imagine it doing the car batteries any harm.

[@markvisser8433]

Cycle counts are still a significant part of battery degradation and I’d be surprised owners will want to risk that with their very expensive vehicle batteries. Current Lithium Ion batteries in use are not suitable for daily grid cyclic usage; maybe if you only permit a maximum of 10-20% use but then that limit fhe overall benefits this is meant to provide. It will be interesting to see how vehicle manufacturers state their battery warranties with respect to this usage. I bet they will add a cycle limit.

[@davewycherley2148]

Didn't VW announce that their ID3 77kw would be a software upgrade away from V2X?

[@DC9848]

Very good video presenter/host, storyline and editing. More of this please!!

[@juliandclarke]

Good vid. I've had solar since 2012. 100kWh across two EVs in the garage. ASHP. So desperate for V2H/G. Have Ioniq 5 with V2L so already has the DC/AC converter. At FCL last year I asked all the charger manufacturers about their V2G development - all said at least 2 years away. And Myenergi (maker of my Zappi charger) actually said there was no demand 🙄 So yes please - urgently needed. Keep up the good work

[@markharrison4808]

Julian - I got a sparky to wire up my Kia EV6 to my house - via a physical transfer switch to ensure I cant feed back to grid if supply work is taking place. The 3.6kw inverter on my Kia will run all except oven/induction hob, so for background usage outside of cheap rate (0030-0430). Nowhere near as slick as a V2H wall charger - I didnt get onto the Indra trial - but basic V2H from existing V2L cars (Kia, Hyundai, MG and I think VW shortly). Requires a physical disconnect from grid but allows me to lead shift to Octopus cheap rate electric. Mark

[@juliandclarke]

@@markharrison4808 brilliant. Thank you Mark. I had wondered this? I’d even talked to my neighbourhood electrician, who was going away to investigate. But all went quiet. What happens when you reach the 3.6kW output? We don’t get many power outages and in fact Western Power are putting in another spur for resilience for our Estate supply. So it could keep our home running for almost 3 days. But not if the ASHP is required in Winter. But great to know you have a solution

[@markharrison4808]

If the house asks for more than 3.6kw the car objects and cuts the power. And the house goes off. As I say not a perfect solution, but a simple way to run off a 60-70kw battery up to 3ish kw. M

[@johnnyonline]

When I first installed my solar a year ago my plan was to compliment that with an EV to store the excess and feed it back to my house at night. I assumed it would be a standard feature but I've since learned it's not even an option yet. Clearly it's the path forward.

[@patrickcorcoran4828]

Ev manufacturers have been saying it is an option since 2012, but no one is actually doing it. I don't know why.

[@faustinpippin9208]

you can make any ev into v2g in a ghetto diy way, get a generator and make something like a dyno for your car and just push the accelerator pedal in your car lol I know you could make it more elegant but at least you dont have to modify the car

[@barbaraevans1892]

We’ve been holding off from buying an EV for over a year now, waiting for V2G to become available. I just wish they’d get on with it….!

[@toyotaprius79]

Market speculators say no

[@bellshooter]

Why wait?

[@spaceman7915]

Our small family business brought our first EV in NZ 5.5 years ago. Cost us $18000 of which we claimed GST and deprecation for the first 3 years, now claiming milage. To date the EV has saved us $24700 on fuel, $2500 on maintenance and claimed so far $22300 on deprecation and milage. That EV has made/saved us $31,500! If we were to buy privately then we would had still not only paid off the EV, it would had still made/saved extra $9200 over keeping existing petrol car or buying a petrol car at same price. 5.5 years on the battery has degraded to 77% from 94% which is approximately a 30km range decrease, but still within our working day travel requirements. We are looking to upgrade the battery next year which is approximately $23000 for a 40kWh liquid cooled new replacement from EV Enhanced, which will give us 3x the range but since were already $31,500 in "profit" the battery replacement will had already been paid for. Why upgrade over buying another one is purely because its over $40,000 for the similar battery/range, plus there's nothing wrong mechanically with our current EV. By far the best decision of a purchase and yes we were skeptical and thought the range would be a hinderance etc.. but glad we didn't wait.

[@davidlittlefield2483]

@@spaceman7915 Thanks for providing your helpful testimony supported with real life data. We need more of this.

[@JohnR31415]

Don’t wait… get that as a next car…

[@yorkyone2143]

Would imagine that V2H would always have the least transmission losses, so preferable to V2G

[@HappySmilyGuy]

I guess if it's enabled to do both but prioritise your home use, and does grid balancing with excess, then both win :)

[@EoinJones]

V2H is great for some people, but is not scalable to the entire population. Planning regulations increasingly prioritize higher density housing for environmental reasons. This will mean more families living in apartments, which will mean less roof space per person.

[@richardr1971]

The physics of VTG mean that the current from the EV will flow ‘downhill’ to the closest demand, your own or neighbouring homes, so grid losses wouldn’t feature.

[@Jaw0lf]

I can't wait for this to roll out in full, I saw this idea many years ago and have been using this idea to help converting people to the idea of an EV. My Tesla Powerwall is 13.5kWh, so for my 64kWh EV battery this is not a lot, so could easily power my home in the evening or send power to the grid, then charge up again overnight. A great video!

[@StuartMossTV]

Speaking from experience V2H is likely to be the future. It has revolutionised how we are able to use energy in our house.

[@rbettsx]

I agree.. V2H could be a substantial part of the national battery in the UK. May I ask how you got access to V2H?

[@Umski]

Would love to have V2H - the scale of an EV battery compared to a home ESS is vast in comparison - only downside would be when the car is actually away and being used 😬

[@paulgardner5665]

The glamorous assistant Robert completes the episode! This is something I will share with family members who read just enough to be dangerous ("EVs will harm the grid!") This is very accessible for a lot of us Yanks.

[@kevmeister1702]

Of course the other benefit of V2G not mentioned on the video is being self sufficient in electricity for short periods. Being able to power your home for a few hours during a power cut is a huge benefit. I have an Ioniq 5 and am able to do V2H with a long extension lead and it’s a great benefit.

[@johnknight9150]

Plugging in to an off-grid cabin and living off your car like that is a brilliant thought and a scenario I might put into a novel one day.

[@protectiongeek]

Just having a V2G capable car connected to your house will NOT provide any power to your home during an outage - in the UK at least - unless you also invest in some modifications to your fixed electrical installation to accommodate local generation in the same way as you would for a PV+battery system or a diesel generator. It CAN be done, it just isn't as straightforward as having a V2H or V2G car plugged in.

[@johnknight9150]

@@protectiongeek If it becomes a chief point of focus then mass scale implementations will default on V2G setups with mass produced and ultimately simplified cost reduced equipment.

[@protectiongeek]

@@johnknight9150 hmmm IF indeed. There's no doubt that the number of new cars on the road that are EVs is increasing at quite a rate, which is already causing problems of supply (of cars, not electricity). Even if we assume that governments will actually stop the sale of ICE vehicles from, say, 2030, the time to 'mass scale implementations' could be another 8 to 10 years. There are just over 28 million homes in the UK and about 75% of them have at least one car so I'm not sure who will be applying the implementation in something like 1.2 million homes per year between now and 2040.

[@johnknight9150]

@@protectiongeek Yes "if" was the key point to that reply. I'm not saying that's what will happen, but it would make good sense.

[@ADudesRotary]

Here is my Quandary living in Australia: I own solar panels and have for a few years now, I was initially getting 10 cents per kWh I was providing to the grid, this meant my electricity bill went from $1000 per quarter to less than $200 per quarter and most of that bill was the connection and supply charge. Now I am getting 4 cents per kWh and my bill has now doubled to over $400 per quarter, all the while all energy costs are rising across the board so I am at a loss to understand how my rebate has done the reverse. Further it is in the government's best interest for me to pay higher prices as they collect more in the way of GST (goods and service tax). Now they are working on a solar export tax, that is they want to charge me for supplying them with my excess generated power. So looking forward I believe the option best suited to my situation is to store my own generated power and disconnect from the grid entirely. Now who do you suppose is going to benefit from this decision I am sure many other solar owners are going to be considering this approach. I promise you that the extreme wealth of the oil and mining are not going down without one hell of a fight. In this country our political parties are funded by donations and those donations talk big time.

[@peteinwisconsin2496]

On-site use of PV-generated electricity needs to be the highest priority. There are utilities that provide even less than 4 OZ cents per kWh. There are at least three loads that everyone should consider defecting from the grid, and powering with direct current, straight off their panels: PV-->domestic hot water is the easiest since you already own the storage tank. PV-->space heat might apply, depending on the season and where you live. PV-->EV is an advanced DIY project but can be run from the same 180v- 250V PV array that powers one's water heater or space heater. The first two are simple PWM controllers. Charging an EV with DC off the same PV array requires a boost-mode DC-DC converter. These three tasks are performed with PV power that isn't even connected to the grid. It's none of their business yet it still reduces your purchases from the utility by the retail cost of electricity.

[@ybeev3409]

I have been on the OVO V2G trial since July 2019 and have exported over 18MWh in that time. I found that it covered my electricity usage for home and car completely up until the energy rate hike in recent times and now is just over breakeven. My car remains plugged in when at home and the software looks after the rest. I was concerned about battery degradation but need not have been. What I found is that there was no significant degradation and may well have been a positive for battery health. Going forward I agree with Mike its now about standardisation. My V2G works fine on CHADEMO and the Nissan Leaf but there are too many EV's out there without the capability which will stall further roll outs of infrastructure. I do not have Solar unfortunately due to protection orders on trees that cast shadows on my roof. It was in looking for other solutions that attracted me to the V2G trial by OVO which I first saw at the first Fully Charged Live show. Keep up the great work.

[@snoopaka]

Very interesting and informative video. Imogen is the best! I also enjoyed Robert's interjections.....

[@stephengreen8986]

Yes that was useful. A good technique in clarifying, reinforcing and supplementing the article.

[@juttley72]

this would be the last piece of the puzzle for me. already having 8KW solar, and a 13.5KW Tesla power wall 2, plus Nissan leaf. It would enable me to be largely self sufficient most of the year and only use cheap overnight rates during the winter. Currently the battery is covering about 12 hours a day and then runs out, leaving me to pay peak rate import tariff. Here is a quick tip for anyone with off peak tariffs. I looked last week at all of my electric appliances, dishwasher, washing machine and dryer and went looking on the net for the instructions to see if any of them support delay start. Turns out they all did, we have now moved all of our usage into the cheap overnight rates. Could kick myself for not thinking of this earlier. cheers for the video and keep up the great work.

[@nr5494]

A Really good, clear presentation. Thank you. VTH seems to me to be the optimum, with no transmission losses or infrastructure costs. VTG however, will help balance & clean up the grid, and is suitable for those without driveways or deep pockets.

[@Chris1511]

One concern for me is that wherever there is “customer savings”, there are losses for the likes of BP and Shell. Which means they’ll do everything in their power to slow down this sort of progress. Do we think they will?

[@johnknight9150]

Probably, but they might diversify and try to get in on the act themselves, possibly with aggressive business practices. (If you can't beat 'em...)

[@Hubris2]

We can be sure that the energy retailers will be ensuring they make as much profit as they can. Even if they aren't generating the electricity they will be trying to ensure they make money by clipping the ticket every time EV owners supplement the grid by taking a cut of the difference between rates which are paid.

[@dcostello1976]

@@Hubris2 There has to be a financial incentive for it to work. Suppliers get to balance demand meaning they don't need as much spare capacity to deal with peak demand. Customers can reduce their electricity bills. So, it could be a win win situation if done correctly. However will require a significant investment to be made to make it work. As a minimum, every house or car will need to be wired to do it. An inverter in car or house required plus smart metering in the home and software and possibly hardware in the car.

[@CymruDad]

I’ve been part of the Octopus Energy/Octopus EV Powerloop V2G trial. My car is plugged in and powering the house and exporting to the grid as I write. I love it I have to say - from approx 16:30-20:30 (depending on how much % is in the battery) each eve the house is powered by the car. I get credit on my tariff every month for the energy exported from the car. What we need though more cars able to do it. For the trial I’ve been leasing a Leaf from Octopus EV - but that lease comes to an end in a year. At that point it’s likely we’ll need a different car (for personal household circumstances we need something a little bigger) - but that would mean no more V2G. We really need CCS and more cars able to do this now!

[@kimollivier]

Nope. There will always be a limit to the amount you can export. It can only be the equivalent of a bit of load shedding on behalf of you neighbours. The grid must always be unidirectional to your house for safety and equipment. The switches and transformers only work with power flowing one way - towards you. It is a short term power play while the grid is in transition.

[@FasterLower]

Fantastic idea, shame that many/most people will find this impossible due to issues with the District Network Operators (DNO). These are the people who have to give you permission to connect to the grid. I live in a 10 year old house 75m from the local SSEN substation. I have 8kWp solar and CANNOT add any additional export capability. I've had batteries (Tesla) fitted and these have had to be set to zero export, and getting that sorted was a struggle. The only way around this is to install a new cable all the way from my house to the substation - bargain at £25,000 (estimated - I'd have to sign up to pay what it costs!). With these issues I can't see how this will gain much penetration in the UK, at least at a domestic level.

[@andyhodchild8]

I am just installing 12.6kWp and after paying Northern Powergrid £450 they will only allow 3.6kWp!! They sight high grid voltage but when I checked in middle of day it was 237 which is low in my book. This is a big farmhouse and yet only has a 80A incoming fuse and now NPG want £660 to decide if its possible to give a 100A fuse?!! Someone needs to get a grip of these G100 export limitations before it kills a whole load of potential jobs off and or wastes a load of capacity.

[@stevezimmerman5644]

At last! Someone who knows what infrastructure is and has also, unfortunately, has experience of what is required to allow us to enable all of this clever stuff.

[@protectiongeek]

Your 'issues' are not with the DNO; they are simply ensuring that your installation - including any potential exported energy - is operated according to national engineering recommendations. Most people won't find export *impossible* but what they may find is that they can't always export all the energy they generate when they want to depending on where they are on the network and the electrical characteristics of the local network. Although it would cost a bit, you could commission an electrical engineer to carry out an independent assessment of your connection to the DNO network to make sure that they haven't made an error. One criticism that _could_ be levelled at the industry is that those doing the G99/G100 assessments are not necessarily qualified to do so. In my 32 plus years as a DNO engineer, I witnessed this decline over many years. Good luck.

[@mattyb1418]

Just need an easy way to get that battery power into the house. I have a Kia Niro and don't use the v2l function because it's a pain running an extension lead into the house through a window. Are there any permanent set ups available?

[@andrewmadeup7375]

Is the UK grid up to it? Can the grid support V2G/H? Which energy providers are on-board? Octopus seems to be with three car supported by their tariff. Is that a good choice for the consummers? Which contarctors can install the relevant equipment to make it happen? And will they have to be MCS certified? Which is even more expense. I can find only one bi-directional charger avalable in the UK at over 4k uninstalled. Is that cost possitive? And thats just the charger. V2G/H has been talked about since Fucashima 2012 and more widly in the West since 2018. So where are we with this? The car manufactures are scared silly about this becasue of their warrenties, so which car OEM is oppenly backing V2G/H and is willing to garantee the grids use of their warentied batteries?

[@grahamcastle8189]

Very well done all. A well researched formulated and presented video that was informative as well as entertaining. More like this please.

[@Yanquetino]

Very informative episode, Imogen! I've commented in Patreon.

[@dalroth10]

Another informative and well presented video! I agree about homes with solar PV and home batteries choosing to use as much of their solar power as possible in their home and augmenting this with cheap rate electricity from the grid to charge up their batteries at night. This is what I'm doing and of course if more people adopt this method so the demand on the grid at peak times will reduce. I do agree that V2G has to be the right solution in the longer term though and can only hope that EV manufacturers are willing to work closely with the National Grid in the UK, (and equivalent authorities in other countries), to bring this into being.

[@andrewhill1068]

I have recently been involved with testing one of these 2 way power units for a major car manufacturer that they are intending to fit across their range of electric vehicles to enable them to back feed the grid. One of the issues that I have not seen discussed anywhere is the premature aging of the battery pack caused by the increased number of charge cycles it will undergo, possibly 10 to 20 over night in areas where the main grid is a bit soft due to its capacity. In some locations that suffer from brownouts or are not close to a generating system may not have very good power regulation and the car battery would attempt to smooth the fluctuations out.

[@JohnR31415]

Ten to twenty cycles in a night?! How much power do you think we’re talking about?

[@andrewhill1068]

@@JohnR31415 They are part cycles maybe only a few percent each time

[@franciscoshi1968]

@@andrewhill1068 that is no different to regen braking. You add hundreds of those a day and there is no adverse effect.

[@stephenshannon3706]

Longevity of the battery pack is in part governed by the chemistry used. Lithium iron phosphate batteries are expected to more than double the numbers of cycles achievable with Li-on.

[@steveholliday1599]

Your point that the battery longevity is a valid one, but a 'cycle' is from fully empty, to fully charged and back to empty again, so that's not happening 20x per night. But - how will a car manufacturer guarantee their battery? Today 'miles' is an indicator or 'charging', but theoretically in the future we might have a car with zero miles on it, but where the battery has been cycled many, many times. Maybe the manufacturers have to start guaranteeing their batteries based on number of 'virtual' cycles or some such.

[@tonybliss577]

Brilliant interview!

[@peted7295]

I'm currently waiting to hear if our home had been accepted for Indras new V2H trial. This could really help us reduce costs and remove our home from the peak grid load. It can't come soon enough, watching our smart meter everyday isn't pleasant viewing right now.

[@juttley72]

hope you get it. I only spotted the new trial six days after the latest round closed and was gutted. I have had my Nissan leaf for two years specifically for its V2H capability. As interim steps, I have just had fitted a Tesla power wall and 8KW solar with a zappi charger. made a huge difference, but the battery is not big enough to last the entire day, and its frustrating that I have another 40KW battery sat next to my house that I cannot take energy from when I need it. Will continue to wait with interest.

[@peted7295]

@J Uttley Shame you missed out, we're going to have to pay £1600 towards the hardware if we do get selected. If that price is reflective of the retail cost then maybe in the not too distant future it'll be viable for mass market. It's exciting tech and i hope in the future it'll play a big part of levelling grid load and reducing costs for consumers.

[@jordansage9655]

I think smart charging that allows users to select what % of their battery they want to be used for powering a home/grid, how many miles they intend to drive, and something that shows what they would make from giving back to the grid for various %'s dedicated to this purpose, would be phenomenal for EV and home owners, and the a massive boost to the grid!

[@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589]

5:54 why does the car graphic have an ICE in it?

[@edenviews]

I would only pass electric back to the grid if I had a surplus, if I had an expensive solar set-up and battery and this would require sunshine and warmth here in the far north of England. Octopus saving sessions are great and shows how so many ones can act to save a lot for many.

[@TheSupermann1996]

EVTEC is the only company today that already sells a charging station to the market which is working with the CCS standard. The Honda E in combination with the "sospeso&charge" charging station from EVTEC is possible to access the huge potential of rolling batteries.

[@fenflyer]

CHAdeMO is a real bonus .... It is still the only original bi directional as standard vehicle interface You can plug a V2L ( Vehicle to Load) cable and power most domestic appliances up to max 4 KW from the traction battery We have been using our 2014 mitsi PHEV to power our of grid caravan trouble free last 5-6 years, the 12 KW battery lasts all weekend between charges , but the game changer with the Mitsi PHEV is when stationery in charge mode ( to recharge traction battery) it's quieter & more fuel efficient than our 10 hp honda generator 🤠👍

[@robverboom5392]

Good video! Recently I switched to an all electric ground source heat pump that - with current low temperatures - consumes approx. 18kWh/day. If it is a sunny day, my 11kWp solar can contribute, but the grid usually has to supplement a substantial share in these darker winter days. If my Kona was V2G is could provide some of the energy from its 64kWh battery, but not for long, considering the limited nr. of sun hours in the winter. Having said that, new battery technologies, such as graphene/aluminium from the Graphene Manufacturing Group (Australia), will substantially increase the charging speed (like 70x!) as well as the energy density (like +50%). Hence allowing charging 'in a flash' when supply is high. Combine this with wireless charging that enables ubiquitous charging (traffic light, parking lots, lamp posts) , and the current way of charging an EV (cable & wait time) quickly looks antique. I see a bright future!

[@jordansage9655]

Imagine airport parking lots, and work lots filled with these, and those facilities using rooftop solar to get all their electricity. True distributed power opportunities. It will be remarkable once this takes up...

[@mylifeoliverking]

PLEASE dont take this the wrong way. I love your channel an everyone has the right to live there lidf they please. The problem is, as I have been watching the channel for so long it has now became tought to ignore. Robert, please take of yourself and watch what you are eating and how much you are doing activity wise. I am sorry, this is incrediby personal, but I really value this channel and I only wish the best for you all.

[@fullychargedshow]

Just seen this comment by chance, I am very touched by your concern. I can only reassure you that I am indeed looking after myself, I am probably as fit now as any 67 year old, I assume you are referring to my weight, a curse for the over 60's, but I have recently lost weight and am exercising a great deal, every day. I'll be around for a while.

[@eIektrinis]

IONIQ 5 actually has a bi-directional onboard charger, that is currently dumbed-down in firmware. All we need is software update to make it work. And some legal regulation of course.

[@AttilaTheHun333333]

Theoretically most Nissan Leaf's have it.

[@eIektrinis]

@@AttilaTheHun333333 ioniq 5 is not theoretical, the inverter actually has the needed hardware. It already offers V2L on one of phases in reverse, while other phases are disabled in firmware. Those 25 cars that are being tested with V2G are only "modified" in software. So once legal stuff is in place, I can see hyundai issuing a software patch. Or they will only enable it in new model, to make you buy it.

[@AttilaTheHun333333]

@@eIektrinis Sure, Leaf Owners are waiting for V2G for how many years now, with their Vehicles capable of it in hardware? It doesn't matter if the hurtles are real or in the legal details...they are there.

[@steveholliday1599]

One problem area you didn't touch on was the impact in the batteries and how a vehicle manufacturers warranty might be impacted. For instance, if most manufacturers offer an 8-year, 100k miles warranty (based on average miles driven and therefore an average charging pattern, and therefore battery cyclcles), then how would this change when the vehicle manufacturer doesn't know how often you will cycle your battery (which could move from once per week, to once per day).

[@punkdigerati]

May just change the verbiage from miles to watt hours. Power applications are typically less stressful on the battery than driving, so while cycle life is affected it's not exactly the equivalent of driving more.

[@andrewmadeup7375]

V2H or V2G which ever term one uses, the goverment dont have a clue about how this will work. I emailed the transport minister, and his reply was shocking, they have no ploicy, have no idea how to impliment it, have no guidance on installation equipemnt, (additional household electrical hardware maybe required). The response from the transport minister was V2G/V2H has nothing to do with the goverment ask your energy provider.

[@BMWHP2]

I would have thought, V2E was standard in every EV by now. Why buy a 7kWh Tesla powerwalll when you have over 40kWh or more in your EV?

[@logicalChimp]

True... unless you e.g. drive your vehicle to work during the day... meaning it can't be used to help power your home (and/or capture/store energy from your solar panels, if you have them) during the day. V2L / V2H gives greater resilience etc, but I think having a home battery *as well* gives a lot more flexibility.

[@BMWHP2]

@@logicalChimp True, that could be so for people that work outside in daytime. But most travel to work and back is 20 mls or so, and loading can be done at work to. Coming home at peak hours, and use the huge EV battery when the sun sets. Also, many work at home or in shifts, or even are on pension. So, it would work for a large part of the population. Large enough to make sence to not invest in expansive Tesla walls but in an EV with V2E, or V2H.

[@dathes]

The peak load in a house may exceed the 3.6kw that the V2L port in ionic5/ev6 supports (ionic5/ev6 in USA supports only 1.8kw) so putting batteries like Tesla power wall in addition to V2L will support those peak loads when the grid has an outage

[@BMWHP2]

@@dathes That is indeed the situation today. EV developement is still in its early days, and i could see a shift toward better V2G and V2H (or V2 everything) in the short future. Luckily we live in an country with no power outages of any significance. Last 10 years maybe 1 small one with a duration of a few minutes. For us it is more about saving cost then be prepared for outage.

[@stephenshannon3706]

Not sure why you reference 7kW Powerwall; ours is approx 13.5 kW. Agree that most EV’s have a far larger battery which could often be useful. I think a complex array of ‘solutions’ will emerge, not least because standards and requirements will vary between markets.

[@mrnetzero]

I’ve been lucky to have had V2G and then V2H for around 3.5 years now and convinced this is a technology that is a no brainer. Batteries are expensive and should be maximised as an asset. I’ve saved thousands of pounds and significant amount of carbon. My battery degradation is non existent from what I can tell. Just wish the legislation was sorted and ev manufactures (Elon musk is guilty!) are forced to deploy this.

[@AnTran147]

Would be great if older EVs could be retrofitted with V2G/V2X.

[@fenflyer]

CHAdeMO is a real bonus .... It is still the only original bi directional as standard vehicle interface You can plug a V2L ( Vehicle to Load) cable and power most domestic appliances up to max 4 KW from the traction battery We have been using our 2014 mitsi PHEV to power our of grid caravan trouble free last 5-6 years, the 12 KW battery lasts all weekend between charges , but the game changer with the Mitsi PHEV is when stationery in charge mode ( to recharge traction battery) it's quieter & more fuel efficient than our 10 hp honda generator 🤠👍

[@MD-gx9kj]

Where can you get a Chademo V2L cable from, I thought you needed a special bi-directional charger. 4:25 I want this for my Nissan Leaf!

[@fenflyer]

@@MD-gx9kj got mine from Alibaba 4-5 years ago CHAdeMO V2L 👍

[@MD-gx9kj]

@@fenflyer thanks 👍😁

[@fenflyer]

@@MD-gx9kj only supposed to be suitable for 3-4 kwh short cycle power take off , from vehicle inverter ( but we had 0% problem using it all week off grid) the CHAdeMO power take off standalone inverters are for 4-8kwh sustainable load 🙄

[@karmanline2005]

A classic example of how "light touch" and "less red tape" will slow progress so a clear central strategy is needed. Also, a key point at the end, ie how this is great for wealthy house and car owners but unavailable for many.

[@61807605]

Mhhm - what's the effect/impact of V2G on the battery warranty provided by the carmakers and the battery lifetime by the increased charging cycles? It this really feasible and does it really make sense to use a practically not replaceable battery for this purpose? Not sure at all.... and this is not covered in the video.

[@ScrapKing73]

“And were already kind of used to this…” and then proceeds to list time of day tariffs and a bunch of other stuff that I’ve never experienced, LOL. I’m jealous, though, I’d love to “gamify” my electricity bill like that! I’d love to see how low I could get my hydro bill by using smart appliances, etc.

[@scottbaker9066]

It's very cool! I charge my (home conversion) EV directly from solar and drive or use it power my PC & lights in the evening.

[@KeithCaptain]

Great vid. We really should be getting V2H sorted out first. Many of the same benefits to the home and reducing demand on the grid without the additional complexity. Also given the number of comments here we need that conversation about battery degradation.

[@veronicathecow]

Excellent video, thank you.

[@saml7610]

The major hangup I see with such strategies is the lifespan of the battery. Would this increase in charge/discharge cycles make the battery have a shorter life, thereby foisting the cost of replacing this grid storage onto the vehicle owner? I think for this to work, we need some sort of equivalent reimbursement scheme that compensates people for the lifespan toll such usage takes on their car's battery. That, and we need MUCH more robust battery recycling infrastructure, because all this added load on these batteries will mean we need more replacements, more often. This means we need to make sure we're not just offsetting emissions to battery production. It's absolutely essential we get battery recycling up to an acceptable level, if we want this to work.

[@isovideo7497]

LiFePO4 batteries also support much more cycling for the same battery degradation.

[@jannepeltonen2036]

That second contentious point - the thing that turns AC into DC is not an inverter. An inverter, as the name suggests, turns direct current into alternating current. Not the other way around.

[@danielmadar9938]

Thank you. Really important.

[@julesprocter9947]

There will be two types of grid in the future. The National Grid, in the UK as now, and then local "micro" grids. Also instead of V2G, it will to S2G (storage to grid) , where home, vehicle and workplace batteries are used to smooth energy supply. We will need a lot more electricity generated (Oxford Low Carbon Hub reckon on 3 times the current amount), and the National Grid can't be upgraded fast enough to cope. So the answer will be local generation, and storage, for local use. Community-based projects will drive this new model.

[@AndySmith-ds7iq]

In March 2022 I had a 35 panel solar array installed (JoJu Solar, thanks Robert) and this has been a great success. I anticipate payback over five years. I didn't go for a home battery because I would like a V2H or V2G electric car. I can't justify spending £40k on a car unless there are benefits greater than just having an electric vehicle. V2H or V2G would effectively offer a discount on the car equivalent to what I would save by not having to purchase a house battery. As this video makes clear the industry is not quite where I need it to be to make my first venture into electric cars. My trusty 10 year old VW Golf will have to keep going until it is, which is a shame.

[@adembakan]

Can’t wait for the live show in Sydney!

[@wyntingley]

Completely agree that there are solutions here to manage demand. I have 10kWh battery storage in the attic and that certainly reduces reliance on high price grid energy. I am not yet sure about the cost case for the batteries as they seem expensive for doing just 'one job'. If that was my EV car instead, at least I could drive it about; plus a usable capacity of 60kWh or more would run the house for 4 days if needed. These are exciting times and I would like to see a government strategy to support great PV, EV, home battery and other renewable solutions.

[@Easyazcarcleaning]

Lots of great information. I feel sad for how much longer it will take my country to grasp this concept. We're still arguing about how great coal is... Loved Roberts entrance 👌🤣

[@ferkeap]

It a nice value for the grid operators. And much better then home-batteries, grid locations with non li-ion is a more sustainable. Most aren't and won't be sold with v2g, because it ads a lot of cost the already high EV price. This episode also show the added cost of variable sources. It's more then the production cost. And variable renewables aren't the goal, sustainable energy grids are.

[@54mgtf22]

Imogen rocks Love your work 👍

[@eviain]

Great video mirrors some of my experience on the octopus v2g trial 👍

[@UrdnotChuckles]

V2G might make more sense for multi-unit dwellings like apartment buildings and condos where any given individual doesn't have their own driveway, or roof for solar. For people with their own homes & solar setups, the house battery would likely be the better focal point for any grid balancing. Doubly so if we start looking toward micro-grid deployments.

[@fransvankralingen725]

A relative small home battery in every household could remove the peak demand altogether, reduce the max current per household with al least 80%, reducing grid-losses and would make the grid much better manageable - it would almost pay for itself

[@AORD72]

Average annual distance cars drive is 12000km a year. Which is about 5kWh a day of driving. With an average EV battery of 60kWh you could easily use 20kWh to send back to the grid. However total ownership of your own grid is going to be far superior. No more corporations sucking you dry.

[@travisb3968]

I thought V2G was more widespread and we were just behind in Aus. Was advised once it's approved in Aus - and apparently it's only being trialled by distributor in SA and not in other states yet - the bi-directional EV Charger Wallbox Quasar is $10k. Will be interesting to see if there's other V2G wall chargers on show at the FCL show in Sydney.

[@WirelessGriff]

I have been sold on the idea for a long time, but my local DNO (electricity provider) won't allow me to have it!

[@Helpsmallbusinesses]

Wonder how quickly they'll have fusion ready to be used?

[@chrisogrady28]

"Sending your electrons back to the grid" Even as a casual explanation for the layman this was painful to hear

[@florinadrian5174]

Yes, yes, everybody should be talking about this.

[@MrMarty77]

I'm surprised that it's still not the norm. The bloody 2011 leaf can do it.

[@kimollivier]

Yes, so it is the design of the grid does not technically allow it and there is significant political inertial to allow it. It would be an energy revolution to be resisted!

[@owennovenski4794]

One issue should be more exposure; the simple fact that pollution coming from millions of exhaust pipes everywhere is infinitely more difficult to contain and control than it coming from just a few source points as is the case with electricity.

[@nicdensley4104]

I've a Vauxhall Vivaro-e coming in the next few weeks. I hope that it will allow for V2H via it's CCS.

[@tonystock856]

V2H would be the best for me and many others that can’t or don’t want a so called smart meter, generating your own by solar PV and storing in your EV. All of the offers of cheap rate tariffs are for smart meter properties only.

[@B0jangle5]

Why can't or don't you want a smart meter?

[@tonystock856]

@@B0jangle5 trust, I don’t trust them (including the establishment) and giving them the ability to switch off my electricity remotely is a definite no. On the technical side we have appalling mobile signal here, it’s now over 12 months since the BP Pulse charger was fitted and I still can’t login, mind you BP Pulse have been totally useless.

[@luciiacob]

For the price of most EVs, they should ALL absolutely support the grid and backup our houses. It'd be a great buying incentive. But battery replacements need to be much, much cheaper. They'll need to be replaced more often if they're discharged daily.

[@IONIQMAN]

Great Video 👍⚡️👍⚡️👍⚡️

[@mjoelnir1899]

All VW id models have v2x capabilities, depending on the charger. So do Audi, Skoda and Seat I myself drive an Skoda Enyaq. My main question would be, how the use of the car is influenced by this bidirectional charging. At some times you will need a fully charges vehicle. Other times you can live with a half charged vehicle, because that day you only plan short trips. When I was still working, I had a charger ad home and at work. So I needed a small charge to get to work and be there at 08:00 and a small charge to get home around 17:00, with additional short drives after I got home. Sometimes I had to go and visit customers. than I needed a full charge during the day. That has to be programmable, so you don sit there with an empty battery and the need to drive somewhere.

[@rbettsx]

With my driving pattern, home electricity consumption, and solar PVs, I need to know my EV could be my house-battery, before buying. (Used, whatever). I think not being a current EV owner may have counted against me in my application for the Indra V2H trial. Does anybody know of alternate routes, or sensible avenues of research?

[@janmichalec5655]

One thing I can't get my head round is how will I be able to drive my vehicle as and when I want it. If it discharges all of some of its battery capacity back to the grid and all of sudden I have a long trip to make what do I do if the car battery is flat or low on capacity?

[@grahamastor4194]

I have a EV and a CCS charger. I wnat V2H, and by extension V2G. I don't really care who enables this: CCS standards body, EV manufacturer or home charger manufacturer; but it really needs to be ssoner rather than later. Please can you rase this at each of your 2023 FCL shows so that V2H & V2G gets some more exposure? Good video on an important topic, thanks.

[@RB-eg7mj]

Would it be possible to have one large bidirectional inverter. It can send & recieve AC from outside, DC to & from battery and 3ph secrect sauce to the motor. Currently we have power electronics for each application, charging, motor contol, V2G.

[@returner323617]

Great content, as usual. However, what I really want - ASAP - is a deep dive into V2H leveraging my existing Solar PV and my existing (two) EVs (or my next EV that does actually support Bi-Directional). I want to get a Storage Battery, but the prices and availability are getting worse and worse, and I have 2 x 40kWh batteries sitting on my drive. What we need, is a National Grid-approved AC coupled gateway that can take energy out of my EV and deliver it to the Home, and provide Grid Backup as an additional benefit; think Tesla Powerwall Gateway type functionality, but for any V2H-compatible EV as opposed to a proprietary Powerwall...

[@carlosjorgepereiradeazeved2390]

school buses in US, on V2G, would be interesting they came with solar in their huge roof, charging while parked during the day waiting for afternoon journey

[@AlphaSphere]

This would be a great ADDITION to a home solar system with a modest home battery. It doesn't have to be either one or the other.

[@andymacleod2365]

how are cars doing the daily commute going to help reduce the morning and evening peak in the UK as they happen at commuting times?

[@Desertrose882]

Have you considered loss of energy from storing energy in battery? Also, how about repeated cycling of battery? Would EV owner allow this to potentially shorten the battery life?

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

Batteries are very efficient. Losses are minimal. Remember the alternative is needing grid batteries or burning fossil fuels. Degradation us extremely minimal. EV motors can be up to 100kw. Home charger is 7kw. It's so small in comparison that it's no problem at all.

[@jay-uo2bi]

Undoubtedly V2G should be an integral part of the grid in the coming decade. It only makes sense.

[@steverichmond7142]

I have recently moved into a house with solar and with the space for a power wall or similar in Eyemouth, Scotland.

[@owennovenski4794]

Well done.

[@DavidKnowles0]

It likely to be a combination of both. I do foresee a future where grid licensing will have to come in, a standardize charge that we all pay to keep the national grid funded and operational.

[@keirallen81]

What are the implications for battery life?

[@grahamgreen9440]

Due to the technical difficulties outlined for getting this to work fully in an ev, I was just wondering if it would be easier to implement in a home battery system. There are likely to be less of them than cars but would be open to every household, ev owner or not.

[@superduperawesome6858]

Good idea! They could make it compulsory in new homes for a start(?)

[@markharrison4808]

Other than if you have an EV you already have a massive battery on wheels outside your house

[@rustynail886]

The Honda e has V2G capability too. A trial was started in Germany last month.

[@michaelmolock]

In an optimistic world, this could help bring people closer together. Knowing that we are all contributing to a common good. And just decentralizing energy consumption would help reduce the need of mega projects like large scale power plants. I believe there have been studies of “What If” major cities would cover rooftops (both large and small) with solar panels. Cities like a New York would become that power plant. Couple that with EV parking within garages would be a great start to a better future. But I’m sure I’m stating the obvious. 😏😏😏

[@termitehill]

We have a leaf, model 3 SR, 13kw solar array and powerwall2. As the global majority (by volume - like them or loath them) of new ev’s hitting the market are currently tesla - we really need them to come to the V2X party. I’m guessing they are too scared to because of cannibalising their own powerwall energy business. In my view this is shortsighted. Home battery is great for load shifting and power outage resiliency. Bigger batteries in the cars could cover bigger home peak loads but also support large V2G (with more capacity than their apparent favoured direction of virtual power plants from powerwall only). One of the technical issues for V2G is export gateway control and safety of power to the grid during grid outages. But Tesla already have this fixed with all powerwall installationS. All that is needed from Tesla is modification for bidirectional ac inverters either in the car or a wall box. The rest is software. It could be easy and rapidly scaleable. It seems they may be bringing V2L in cybertruck so hopefully that trickles to other models? Please think bigger Tesla. You could do great things for the sustainable energy future!

[@b127_1]

There are a few cars that use the same inverter for turning AC into DC for charging and DC into AC for driving their AC motors. These cars work reliably, so I don't think it's outrageous to require it. After all, what is the cost of a few relays added to the price of an entire car? Not a lot.

[@YungKnightBeatz-ez3zx]

Zaptec . Lets go Zaptec Go 2!

[@jameshughesdon5370]

All well and good, but as someone living with VTG, there is an elephant in the room... well, two. First, price, octopus charge 16p all day apart from 23.30 - 5.30 remember they have control of the VTG unit and it only outputs between 16.00 and 19.00 so VTG doesn't help at all during the day so to make this system work you also need a home battery. Second and the big problem. Physics. For VTG to work, the unit increases the voltage of your home. We already had a high grid voltage 245V due to the transformer being next door. With VTG, our voltage went up to 252 / 254v. This damaged many appliances in our home, and for some reason, the unit didn't alart anyone it was outputting such a high voltage. We have ended up rewiring our mains, including a voltage optimiser, to reduce our voltage to 230v ( 240v during the VTG session). I personally would recommend anyone installing a VTG unit. make sure you check your voltage first. It's not as simple as it all sounds.

[@Roamor1]

Thank you.

[@Top12Boardsport]

V2H or V2G or both. I think that we need both. The important thing is using all systems with batteries and generating electricity. Wind, solar , nuclear, hydro and so on.

[@paulrobson2323]

Brilliant idea. Does that mean I need to change my Charger?

[@theharper1]

Even if you only have V2H, it helps the grid by reducing the load at peak times. The house can get it's peak energy from the car instead of the grid. You don't have to have V2G for the grid to benefit from EVs.

[@rklauco]

The minor hidden problem is that this will be a pyramid game in the beginning and in the end, nobody will make any money (not really a bad thing). Why? Well, if EVs help to shave off the peaks, peaks will get cheaper. And if they get cheaper, the less people will participate. As less people participate, it will get more expensive again, etc. After short time, the system will find equilibrium, where there will be so many EVs just casually plugged in, that the peak will no longer play any significant effect and we might even forget we ever had this problem.

[@pasad335]

I'm not sure people are fully considering the opportunity cost the private vehicle owner potentially suffers by actually using their vehicle under V2G scenarios. It's a lot like taking an unpaid day off work to go to the beach. In that case, you have the cost of the beach trip of course, but you also suffer the loss of income from the day off. In the V2G scenario, if you decide to actually use your vehicle in the time period of peak grid demand, you not only have the cost of the driving energy you will use, but you also suffer the loss of income by not being home connected to the grid and collecting the income from the export tariff. This is the conundrum when you "dual-purpose" the vehicle battery versus a dedicated home storage battery. This makes fleet vehicles (like school busses) ideal candidates for this purpose, but private vehicles not so much.