Game Connect 08 - What Makes a Good Game - a critics perspective 4/4

Ben 'Yahtzee' Croshaw
Ben 'Yahtzee' Croshaw is a game reviewer who shot to fame with Zero Punctuation, a weekly series of video reviews for the Escapist online gaming magazine, which became widely viewed and beloved by players and developers alike for their quickfire, no-holds-barred approach to game criticism.
He has also worked in development as a writer for several local studios and as a designer with Brisbane indie developer Aberrant Entertainment, as well as his own personal game projects.

[@ChrisRayGun]

These are dreadful questions.

[@elgatochurro]

the point is that he's talking about it as a n art, these people have asked to use it as a tool.

[@PaulA-fp3vs]

People kept asking about making games an educational tool. That whole system is obsolete. Shoving people into closed environments and force feeding them information. It has always being obsolete doesn't matter how you adorn it.

[@unidentifiedguy8253]

I disagree. If you ever played Crayon Physics or Poly Bridge you can see the combination of engaging entertainment and education. At least those physics and engineering games seem to get the attention of players on a certain IQ level.

[@ImortalZeus13]

@@unidentifiedguy8253 Those games are more effective at teaching basic concepts of gravity and inertia to children then they are as proper "education", like one would expect in a classroom.

[@rimmijohnson3361]

My question would have been 'can I buy you a drink after?'

[@TheN9ne09]

THANK GOD FOR MICROPHONE GUY!!!! FOR Bailing Yahtzee out on those Educational games questions... At least he realized Yahtzee had no clue about anything that they were talking about.

[@Maurauth]

this is so awkward, the fact that the ubisoft/do you speak french line went down like a lead balloon shows how little the audience actually know (and care) about vidoe games

[@JosephPage]

This is the kind of Yahtzee that I'd like to see more of; a guy who takes time to make his point clear, and explain when it does and doesn't work. I thoroughly enjoyed watching these.

[@Gaiacarra]

Not any gamer could truly get into the depth of gaming as an art form. From the way he speaks, it's obvious he's given the artform of video games a hell of a lot of thought. Now sure, there are probably hundreds of others with similar ideas, and Yahtzee's knack for making good video reviews is what got him to the top. But "any random gamer"? No way in hell.

[@hairinmyEYES]

Absolutely. The only problem with purely educational games is that they tend to bludgeon you over the head with the education in a way which isn't terribly conducive, in my experience. I'd say a real breakthrough would be a more passive learning experience. A longer runtime game in bigger chunks, but still completable in a week or two's allotted chunks of spare time. Tricking kids into learning is the best thing ever.

[@InSingularity]

There are some real gems of wisdom on youtube. They're hard to find, but they're there.

[@AshkanKiani]

Games aren't for education. I got into a heated argument with my brother after he tried to tell me that he thought that it was possible for us to replace teachers with distance education in the future. I'm a big fan of technology, but there are some things that can't be replaced by machines. You need to have a teacher who cares, who shows you why something is important, not just what to learn. Teachers should be the bridge between the textbook and you, but they forget that these days.

[@MrDacard]

The learning in a game is at it's best, a fluid process, where you dont think about it as learning but come to an answers as a resonable solution to a problem. for a very simple example for some basic maths, take something like resident evil, say it takes 3 bullets to kill a zombie, and you have a clip that holds 15 bullets after a time of playing you will begin to instinctually know that you can kill 5 zombies before you need to reload, you know that 15 divided by 5 is 3 or 15 divided by 3 is 5

[@Quiczor]

Wow this was really interesting. I mean I can't believe I just sat and watched all this for 40 minutes. I suppose this video had the kind of immersion that good games should have.

[@CrypticDiabolo]

the thing about trying to make a game educational is that you're trying to make art into a tool, so the game kinda loses it's soul as a game.

[@TheWayoftheSith]

yes, the game should never force you to learn like throw at you a few pages to read and then ask you lots of questions, that's a quiz not a video game. I would say giving the players choice is what defines a game because gameplay is all about being in control. No choice would go against the point of games. So anything educational would have to be presented to you with a storyline so it feels natural and not feel like your being given homework from a teacher... subtlety is I think the key here.

[@TomDack13]

Some of these questions were fucking stupid, but Yahtzee is a legend

[@wpgme85]

I think there's a place for both Yahtzee's. For the short form rage rant that intelligently disects games to their basic failures there's Zero Punctuation. For the longer form in depth analysis and reasoning behind the argument there's More Punctuation, his weekly online article.

[@Jadekiwi]

I'd have walked out at "Whats your name again?" Fuken hell. -____- Poor dude!

[@d3jake]

It's great to be able to get a chance to hear the "reasonings" behind the reviews that he writes.

[@EntaruThandin01]

I think he REALLY wanted to go when he "muzed" about it.

[@p0m91]

good to see yahtzee spreading himself around to make his opinions heard by the people making the games :D a++

[@BrotherBullied]

Thanks for posting, this is a great set of videos! (cept what's with all the single red frames appearing intermittently through out the recording? e.g. 00:37)

[@Thutil]

What you're talking about is negative possibility space and the illusion of choice. A game which engenders expectations that certain actions are possible or rewarded and then fails to follow up - that's negative possibility space. The illusion of choice is a matter of making players believe that their decisions have impact within the game, and it's very much an illusion if you want any sort of coherent story. A player must be restricted for a game to be good, but the player must not realize it.

[@theguyoo1]

Thanks for uploading, Its nice to hear what he has to say without trying to interpret his fast talking and obscure similes every thursday

[@theguyyouhate]

exactly that is what makes him special if everyone really could do it every WOULD are you honestly sugesting that the reason people don't start makeing videos that make them as popular as this guy is that they don't want to? no that guy is special if only because he has the courage to stand up and tell his openion

[@GameplayTwist]

I was talking more about side options like turning off the audio in a shooter that says "I'm reloading" over and over and over, see James Bond Quantum of Solace multiplayer to hear this, which totally broke the game for me after a short time. Most games fail in the basic options set, and more so locking weapons in COD and all other shooter literally all of them is another I was thinking off. You make an interesting point though, but not even sure I understand it yet.

[@VitalSigns1288]

I think if you're going to make a game you shouldn't have it interrupt gameplay. A good educational game wouldn't be broken up during the level with quizes and questions, but would maybe be part of a boss battle or in between levels.

[@GameplayTwist]

So he talks about what makes a good game. I say that the moment a game restricts the player it can start to decline into a bad game. Depending on the level of restriction. It can be a simple 2d mario type of game and maybe you wanna go down a tube but can't no big deal. But when the restriction or lack of options decline something that should be allowed it most certainly is bad. Other astetics and elements aside from simple game which is easy to judge to complicated game also easy to restrk

[@spinnenente]

the best a game can do in that regard is getting the kids interested good example for that is asscreed where when you, lets say, meet a hiltoric person can look up some info ingame if you are interested but if you are supposed to actually learn things its basically impossible to do it without the game feeling like its teaching you

[@xkai7546]

reading these comments is really frustrating me. yhatzee's my FAVORITE game reviewer but y'all should think for yourself. have you mudafukaz PLEYED typing of the dead, or age of empires ii. i mean COME THE FUCK ON. the question you should be asking is why aren't we making good educational games on par with these. it's a valid topic that needs to be tackled, and it can be resolved quite easily.

[@SethHesio]

Cool video, great guy.. so learned. Anyone know the story behind the "Yahtzee" nick name?

[@xkai7546]

o_o c'mon i expected yhatzee to say make it dynamic and replace the in game info with knowledge and built around getting better at certain skills. i can think about a million and one ways to make "educational" games appealing.

[@ReaperDamska]

Nice to know a bit more about a cool guy :D

[@megalibra82]

I can't agree more

[@coconut7077]

why are we talking about teaching school skils for games? to quote Yahtzee"games are fun" it's not gamer delvopers job to make education fun it's teachers jobs. I had alot of good teachers who made learning fun so i know it is possible even the subjects that i hated i still worked hard on not because i wanted a good mark but because the teachers made it fun

[@SethHesio]

Which game is he talking about at 6:10?? Braid?

[@monkeyoncrackftw]

yes but a good one would mean you wouldn't even know that you are learning

[@Thutil]

Well, at the present and near future teachers cannot be replaced, but it's within the realm of possibility to create a tutor AI that is good enough to supplant human teachers as children's primary educators.

[@nicosxray007]

Well,you don't see blacksmiths ironing swords in a corner or in the market,do you?That's because their jobs became obsolete.It happens with every kind of job and it's unavoidable.The point is not to not replace people because they'll lose their jobs,but to free people from menial,repetitive jobs (like in a factory),thus allowing them to pursue other,more fulfilling careers. One problem that we all face is how we're going to retrain ourselves for new,different jobs.For that,I'll have to refer you to recent advancements in neuroscience,especially the cognition part of it (a good book to read would be The Future of the Mind by Michio Kaku).The progress may a bit slow,but it's faster than a snail. Some people will lose their jobs,sure,but that's unavoidable due to ever-changing social and technological conditions.It happened with the Agricultural Revolution (which actually created jobs),it happened with the Industrial Revolution (which gradually eliminated most typical jobs at that time),it will happen with the Robot/AI Revolution (which will eliminate most menial tasks,not creative ones). Lastly,as I don't want to bore you with details,humans will surely merge with robots,given the boost they'll get in everything,as long as they don't look like they came out of a 1950's sci-fi B-movie.It is already happening,with visual and auditory enhancements for people that have problems (blindness or deafness) in their respective area.

[@mpbarron76]

The fear of all sums?

[@nickyw141]

Kids are being drawn into games more, they don't have the attention span to solve a hard puzzle. Probably why most kids play simpler games like CoD. It's a point and shoot game with little thought process in the game, sure you can choose what weapon you want and where to go on a map, but in the end it is repetitive gameplay.

[@BlinJe]

He explains that games = art.. then gets asked how to make it into an education tool.... blaarghg

[@jazzmunky]

He's trying to butter up Peter M after regularly bashing him in ZP! See how he had to make a disclosure about how he likes Tim schafer before laying into Brutal Legend! Yahtzee cant alienate the big guys too much. All toungue in cheek really of course! Hilarious!

[@BinarySecond]

nice to see some people askign completely innapropriate questions

[@ZenMacleod]

I just finished making an educational game and well, They suck. You need to make a good game. You can gamifiy the classroom but, the edutainment games made by a committee of teachers and desperate start up games companies. Games do teach tangentially.

[@CornishCreamtea07]

God what's with all the questions about education games

[@godly04]

No offense to yahtzee, I love the guy but.. He isn't really saying much that any random gamer couldn't say. He's a bit overrated in terms of how elavated he is to the point of giving presentations to real life audiences. Any gamer could step up to a podeum and ramble about how games suck now because nobody knows how to make games with gameplay anymore. He was merely the only one who cared enough to make funny youtube vids about it.

[@ZuhayrSIslam]

Being able to articulate it so eloquently is a skill. If out of the millions of gamers that exist Yahtzee was the only one who cared enough then that in a and of itself is something commendable.

[@Dice12K]

Alright, finished watching this, back to Zero Punctuation~ xD

[@godly04]

Watching these videos really confirmed what I knew all along about him... he's not witty or a great speaker at all. Anyone can sit for hours preparing 1-liners and firing them off in a video that was probably re-recorded 100 times before he finally got it perfectlly.. in person he's just a nerd like every other gamer :P I love him though

[@insideoutllama]

No kid wants to play a game that's trying too hard to teach them anything.

[@ElDrHouse2010]

What the hell is wrong with that woman? Edu-games...