Game of Thrones: Battle of the Bastards review

[@DragonTigerBoss]

"Keep your shield up, or I'll ring your head like a bell." -Jon Snow JON YOU MASSIVE HYPOCRITE

[@scholagladiatoria]

Hahaha

[@Ruarscampbell]

That was Ned wasn't it? From Bran Stark's worging(?) into the past. Either way Ned obviously taught his younger brother better than his sons.

[@DragonTigerBoss]

Ned said it to Benjen too. Jon said it to Olly a few episodes earlier.

[@Ruarscampbell]

DragonTigerBoss I stand corrected.

[@marko0samec]

oi, thanks for the nice video, again :) I was just wondering if you could advise me some books about medevil warfare, please. in any case, remain awsome and please keep up teh videos!

[@duckmanham]

The biggest tactical error in this battle, for me at least: Giving the massive giant with the potential for insane reach absolutely no weapons and no armor. Not even a tree that's been knocked over.

[@lenny_1369]

@callmecatalyst bruh, i thought i was missing out something from the book but soon realized it was a joke

[@MarkMiller304]

They could have give him rocks and he would have done better. A human catapult than can fling boulders as fast you can throw baseballs.

[@justarandomguywithoutabear7234]

What I was thinking was using the giant as artillery. If you watched AoT the beast titans throws rocks at enemy which both morally and numerically destroy the enemy. I think same concept could be used in here.

[@justarandomguywithoutabear7234]

@@MarkMiller304 wow someone else already said that too. I did not read this comment

[@MrTejlgaard]

So there is a one aspects which I would like to mention as being worth highlighting. Look at Ramsays command and control structure. He has done everything, _because he has a plan_. The orders Jon gives to his own army are very simple - he has had a war council, and he has told them to hold formation. When he decides, himself, as the commander of the army, to ride forward to save Rickon, he _abandons_ command, leaving Ser Davos as the de-facto commander. Now, fortunately, Davos has a good set of lungs on him, and so he is able to give commands - but contrast this with the way Ramsay commands. Ramsay is at the way back, in the reserve, on a horse. As John charges, he instructs his archers to unhorse John, and he succeeds. Then, he simply says 'now'. In other words, his cavalry officer knows exactly what to do. There is a distinct sense that he has explained the possibility that John may leave himself vulnerable, and if he does, the job of the cavalry commander is to kill him at Ramsays instruction. Next, he directly instructs his archers to knock, draw and loose - over and over. In other words, his archer commander was not aware that they would be pelting their own cavalry with arrows. The cavalry force is likely made up of people from other northern houses, bannermen Ramsay _would want to get rid of_. He cares now how they are armed and armored, in fact the worse the better, for they have only one job: Kill John Snow in case the archers don't get him, and bog down the enemy vanguard and cavalry - oh, and _die_, and make a wall of corpses. Next, he instructs lord carstark, 'advance!'. Carstark has, again, been given explicit instructions beforehand to lead the vanguard of the foot of the other houses (Ramsays bannermen), and to take _the middle_ of the field. Specifically, ramsay will have told him that he must advance down the middle, because bolton men-at-arms will flank and surround so he _must_ hold formation. This forces Carstark to climb the corpses. If all goes to plan: Snow is dead, Carstark is stuck between the wall of corpses and snows remaining force, and Ramsays bannermen will kill _everybody_ with _zero_ losses to the bolton men-at-arms. This will be the instruction he has given to the bolton men-at-arms which, again, is never articulated beyond 'now'. In other words - Ramsay _wants_ to kill half his own army. He wants to declaw the north of fighting men, because he wants to impose a tyrannical rule using the only significant remaining force - the bolton men-at-arms. Unfortunately Snow doesn't die (very unlucky for Ramsay), but fortunately, he has so poor command of his army that they can't get our of the shield wall enclosure. Then the knights of the vale arrive, and one-one breaks down the castle gate in an entirely unpredictable outcome. It also looks like most of John's foot actually lived to fight another day.

[@jklhjkhjl]

glad im not the only one to notice this he wanted those cavalry dead like you say by the looks of it only the archers and the men at arms are bolton men

[@TheGimilkhad]

The problem with that, is that in the first battle of Winterfell, we saw a mass of cavalry crush Stannis. Those were Boltons who clearly had almost no losses and it happened before the Umbers and Karstarks pledged allegiance. If you were right and he cavalry wasnt Bolton men, where did those thousands of men vanish?

[@MrTejlgaard]

Men at arms don't have to ride into battle every time just because they know how - I suppose that would be my answer.

[@TheGimilkhad]

Could be but having rewatched the episode, a large number of the cavalry wear bolton style helmets and armour adorned with flayed men. Looks to me Its just to show how cruel Ramsay is, thats all.

[@jklhjkhjl]

Peter Bacilek if thats the case i think he was just willing to sacrifice his cavalry we can all agree he knew that his cav would die and was willing to do so be it for whatever reason

[@jgroth3906]

He doesn't need a shield or helmet because he has plot armor.

[@user-xl8jm3zy1f]

plot armour in game of thrones XD

[@spooky4124]

plot maces when?

[@SociaCin]

Same stuff Arya uses =P

[@PaulHofreiter]

He also has extra lives.

[@Patchaddictedpolymath]

@@SociaCin That comment aged well

[@markjaypeegonzales7404]

"and probably none of you would watch the whole length of" You underestimate my power

[@Ezio999Auditore]

*Feebly rises from throne.* "You have no power heeeeere..."

[@lindgrenland]

Only a sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must...

[@jengaaaaa]

They actually dug trenches for their flanks to prevent being surrounded. Jon abandoned that strategy to just mindlessly charge.

[@jengaaaaa]

Also one more volley of arrows after Jon fell off from his horse would've finished him surely but they decided it was better to just sent cavalry and stop shooting while they had plenty of time to loose couple more volleys towards Jon and their charging cavalry.

[@vlandianbutter9960]

+jengaaaaa it's either ramsey is fucking stupid, or the directors aren't going for a 100% realism, sure the cavalry has more chances of killing jon than arrows, but ramsey did saw jon's own cavalry to counter his and he still told them to proceed anyway. Roose didn't get poisoned for this shit.

[@MadnerKami]

What Matt calls plot-armor is, in fact, divine intervention. It`s established by now, that the Lord of Light or any entity that is understood as the Lord of Light is indeed a very real thing, as can be evidenced by the reoccuring ressurection of Barric Dondarion and now, Jon Snow. He *should* have died like a houndred times during this battle and indeed he seems to display a clear death-wish at that point, but something literally doesn't allow him to die. One more volley of arrows wouldn't have killed him.

[@SonsOfLorgar]

+Normal Owl ramsay is sanguine way past his relative intelligence which means he views everyone else as expendable and wastes his troops. Also, I think most of his cavalry is made up of vassal forces, so his choise of indiscriminately shoot into the melee is probably also a means of eliminating future threats to his position.

[@shrekas2966]

cause he was fucking idiot. davos shouldhave gave ranged support and skirmish around the battlefield

[@user-vz4hj8oh2z]

"Why doesn't he have a shield? Why doesn't he have a helmet?" Because he has plot armor, the most protective and magical armor in all of fiction.

[@I_Don_t_want_a_handle]

Nope, he don't have no helmet so we can see his pretty face. us stoopid viewers can't be trusted to recognise a chap by his armour, sigil or nothing - we must be able to see his face!

[@daefaron]

Why doesn't he have armor?

[@kodesh1674]

The Unsullied would’ve useful for Jon here If the mother of dragons was here

[@millitron3666]

Why didn't Wun Wun have a weapon? I mean, at Hardhome we see him smash skeletons with a big log, taking out dozens in a single swing. But here he just doesn't really do much. He steps on a few Boltons, tears one in half, but he really doesn't do all that much. They wouldn't even have needed the Vale if Wun Wun was armed.

[@Darlos9D]

I think you just answered your own question. And it upset me a little too.

[@PJDAltamirus0425]

Good point, and it is something that could have been done hastily. Does take long to chop a tree down and roll it to giant compared to outfitting a rag tag army with a helmets, shields and proper battlefield weapons. He could have smashed a hole in the bolton infrnaty and Jon and the Wildlings could have done it themselves. Also, why the hell did Jon stay on foot? He is to dodge Calvary attack and knock off horses, he could have kiled a rider and robbed him off his when during the calvary collision scence.

[@CicadaAppreciationSociety]

Also Davos dismounts to lead the archers charge. Why dismount? He could have lead them while still mounted.

[@Darlos9D]

***** We could really go on all day, probably.

[@JimTempleman]

All Wun Wun needed to do was pick up a dead horse & use it as a flail.

[@Raven.flight]

at about the 30min mark you make the point about weapons piercing armour. I think that's a really valid point, but more so, if they DIDN'T do the weapons piercing armour left right and centre, the Valyrian steel blade doing so would stand out more. Imagine if you never saw it happen throughout the rest of the story, it would make something OF John Snow's sword as unique.

[@RobAndTheChaps]

Thats actually a really good point, imagine just a beat or moment taken where John comes out wearing new plate armour of House Stark, sorta declaring himself the rightful ruler. Would allow the arros to hit and not effect him, then have him using it effectivly while his own sword parts similar armour like butter, Ramsey would react. It could make for a very cool couple of character moments.

[@syncopaint_minis3016]

Its still just Steele. Its uniqueness is only for one use and thats to stop the whitewalkers weapons and kill them. Other than that they the same but shinier!

[@steelinghades9655]

@@syncopaint_minis3016 Except that's literally the exact opposite of what It is. Valyrian steel is consistently described--at least in the books--as Spellforged, that will remain sharp forever, Is supernatural light and supernaturally sharp.

[@Adam_okaay]

@@steelinghades9655 None of those factors will affect a swords ability to cut through a steel breastplate into the person wearing it. a cut is a strike with edge of the blade, a stab is a cut with the tip as the leading edge, a sharper blade will initiate a cut with less force, but the depth of the cut is dependant on the blades geometry and the force behind the strike, and the tensile strength of the object struck. A Valyrian Steel blade will likely bite into the breastplate causing a nick, but any penetration beyond that is depend on on force and the blades geometry. The fact that it's lighter is also detrimental to the force generated. Breastplates are designed to absorb force and redirect momentum. Swords are sidearms designed to cut through soft targets like clothing and flesh. A human is not capable of generating enough force to penetrate a steel breastplate with a sword shaped object regardless of it's supernatural sharpness.

[@aceykerr8752]

@@Adam_okaay Valyrian steel is described by GRRM as being able to cut through the thickest plate like butter. It's supposed to bite into castle steel swords and ruin them. It's literally steel imbued with dragon fire, it's magic. They never dull, they never rust, the are unbreakable, and only 2 or 3 people are even capable of altering the material.

[@winkyy_underscore]

I agree. Wun Wun was extremely under utilized. Could have done a lot more damage with him.

[@bazookaace]

hell, they could've just ripped a gate off its hinges and gave him that!

[@haillobster7154]

The one genuine super soldier on Jonny's side. And he was beyond useless, except for the reverse- Hodor.

[@TheGeekymetalhead]

Just give him a big stick with some reach

[@TheCompleteMental]

Just give him a fucking door, or a tree

[@pierre-4]

why didn't they give wun wun a weapon?

[@walruswarlock4800]

I know, He could have beasted everyone if he had a sword or even a tree.

[@tonylosoya8263]

That is exactly what I was thinking. If he had a massive tree and shield he would've been unstoppable.

[@BenthiccBiomancer]

Or Jon could have had put all his resources into a single set of giant sized plate armour. Good luck killing THAT.

[@TheRevanM]

why didn't they give anyone anything. They got support of all theese houses they that had several hundred men in total but they never got the idea to use their blacksmiths and armorers as well.

[@vlandianbutter9960]

Because he's particularly dumb as a stump and he is not an experienced fighter compared to his other kins who has giant fucking bows.

[@ChipMHazard]

Personally I thought one of the most silly things here was the pile of bodies. It was very convenient for so many men to die in the same exact spot, then have more people choose to wade into the dead men and die there as well, then have even more people try to wade and climb through the growing pile all so that it would make it possible for Ramsay to use his pike formation as a trap. This is despite being shown that there was no reason for anyone to wade into the growing pile of dead and dying men, when they could go around it. It was high, but not very wide, which also means that the northeners are some real jokers when they're dying... Probably thought it was a real cheeky move to pile on top of each other before expiring. Maybe they got a message from the battlefield janitors to pick up their own bodies as their moms don't work there. It was a fun battle to watch, but damn was it hollywoodified. Virtually no helmets on Jon's side in order to easily distinguish between Ramsay men and Jon's men, I'm sure that one man whom Jon talked to regretted not having one. The aforementioned pile of bodies that seemed to have been formed purely out of spite, and because the writers had to think of a way to trap Jon's men. Sansa arriving with an unannounced and unknown army at the last moment in a very American "Here comes the cavalry!" fashion. Dick move Sansa, dick move. I'm still not entirely sure why no one in the north seemed to know that there had been a Vale army at Moat Cailin traveling up through their lands and only a day or hours away before the battle begun.

[@SonsOfLorgar]

agreed

[@ChipMHazard]

Oh and another thing, I'm pretty sure that the pile was facing in the direction of the Bolton army, because of the direction of the arrow volleys. If I'm correct about that then why did Jon's men retreat towards the Boltons instead of towards the forest where they came from. Again, these northeners are a right bunch of jokers.

[@Fergus99]

I would say they didn't have helmets and shields etc because of how poorly equipped they were, there wasn't much in terms of resources for Jon's army. But I agree with the rest of your argument, it's more for entertainment than realism, which is kind of the point of Game of Thrones...

[@mixmastermind]

+ChipMHazard There were 5 ranks of pikemen in the direction of the forest.

[@MagneticDwarfReptile]

They did it out of courtesy. So that the survivors would have an easier time of burning the bodies.

[@grayking2012]

In the books the wildlings carry pine, wicker and bronze/ bronze studded shields. So yeah where are the shields!

[@vlandianbutter9960]

Where did they get bronze weapons? And where did they crafted or looted them?

[@grayking2012]

+Normal Owl the Thines the people that work bronze if you read the books. Their leader married feak aria.

[@MadnerKami]

+Normal Owl Bronze really isn't that hard to make.

[@MrMleczkp]

They produce bronze weapons and shields themselves all the iron and steel weapons they have are looted or bought from smugglers since there are no good sources of iron north of the wall.

[@CottonPanzer]

The Thenns, who disappeared after the Battle of the Wall, for some reason. They actually had a stable community.

[@lvd8122]

just put an wooden armor on wun wun, he could easily have an armor that is thick enaugh to stop evrything, That combined with an Club, and he would just run through the enemy army, plus imagin an 12 foot tall Guy charging at you, with an armor you Know you have no chance to penetrate, evryone would just run away!

[@stevenwang5148]

Wun Wun with thick oak armor and carrying a giant roman style shield. Literally just turn around and run cuz there's a one ton truck coming down on you.

[@TheGreatPower365]

Wun Wun being unarmed is the oddest thing about this. He was swinging an improvised club at hardhome, why is he unarmed for this fight? So odd

[@callumbush1]

I'd just run him through with a spear especially as he's slow and cumbersome

[@Dell-ol6hb]

Callum Bush yea a lance or javelin would work perfectly

[@Ajmes]

@@callumbush1 Something with 7 foot legs isn't slow and cumbersome. People don't know how muscles work.

[@sweatyeti]

Perhaps during the years leading up to the Game of Thrones, there began a persistent, Westeros-wide shield-maker strike and their availability quickly dwindled.... ?

[@KonguZya]

"I thought that just looks like a *real* giant." I'm so glad that Matt's commenting on this, because now we know how to accurately represent real historical giants!

[@WakarimasenKa]

It certainly sounded like he claimed a little expertise on the matter ;P

[@gaiusjuliuspleaser]

Does he know things we do not?

[@CicadaAppreciationSociety]

It's not CG it's an actual 7+ foot actor on a green screen so it looks pretty good.

[@Viking1310]

Being on a green screen is CG, where the one agent (CG term for a character) is filmed separately and then laid over the other footage. Yes the actor who plays WunWun is tall, but he still has to be massively increased in size.

[@TheOldBearTime]

+Dubious Claims Nahnahnahnah, I'm the most pwerful warrior in all of Tamriel! >:)

[@Arcsinner]

45 minutes? But ... I have so much stuff to do! I guess I can write my paper in the night before the deadline

[@jamesblacker1840]

Ah, the woes of being a nerd.

[@Er404ChannelNotFound]

Who needs sleep anyway?

[@Arcsinner]

What is this "sleep"? Some low-grade coffee-ersatz?

[@dragatus]

You could watch it at 1.5 speed and only spend half an hour.

[@AGermanFencer]

A friend once said: "Who doesnt run to his prof on deadline has wasted time." ^^

[@ludovicocammisa9320]

ramsay bolton in the book wears a distinctive red armor with a matching helm and a pale pink cloak...in the show he wears...a jacket...hbo give more funds for weapons and armor please...mace tyrell was wearing a sweater to simulate mail goddamnit

[@SonsOfLorgar]

agreed

[@nexusclarum8000]

Probably would have more money for weapons and armor if people stopped pirating and stealing and leaking their tv show.

[@ondrejfranek2470]

Yea, it is just lazy to remove helmets and generally armor to make actors more recognisable instead of finding creative artistic visual expressions to guide the viewer. Personalised helmets and shields, perhaps? Camera work? Anyone, HBO?

[@CaroleS2512]

I think you can sign up temporarily with HBO. I signed up with NOWTV - I got a really good price for three months. It contains all the Sky channels, including Sky Atlantic, which is the channel in the UK that broadcasts GoT.

[@yvesgomes]

I don't think that was a funding issue. Thebooks use a "gimmick" to describe the very many characters. There are many instances of enameled armor, so MArtin can set a character's appearance as simply "the guy of armor of this color and hair of this color, who smiles a lot." In the show, we got actors, so w on't need this gimmick. We can just remember people's faces instead. This means that they can be more subtle with the costumes. And I see some meaning in Ramsay not being wearing armor in this scene. It shows his cunning, that is doesn't even intend to take part in the fight, that he is just a mastermind.

[@TheCsel]

@24:14 the Onion Knight tells their archers to stand down because they would just kill their own men. This takes the friendly fire into account just to show that the enemy is lead by a sociopath.

[@johnericsvendsen9417]

TheCsel *Psychopath

[@therealpat5168]

The point was for Ramsay to have Jon baited out, forcing Jon's army to close most of the distance between them to save his stupid ass, thus making the front lines much closer to the Bolton archers than to Davos' archers and so minimizing friendly fire.

[@ChicagoDB]

Almost impossible to conduct a double-envelopment with infantry...unless you massively outnumber the enemy force...and they have no cavalry or few archers.

[@ChicagoDB]

It was a really bad episode - we know more now about why it sucked so much... The Director told D&D how long it would take to film - and they only gave him 1/3 the shooting days required...and to make matters worse they lost the last 2 schedule shooting days due to rain. The episode they broadcast was not even what was scripted...and much of what we see was actually cobbled together using spare footage. D&D suck! Wun Wun could have easily smashed any enveloping wall of shields/pikes... The entire damn episode was in incoherent and illogical mess!

[@ChicagoDB]

Jon didn't zigzag either...and every archer could see he was charging...they would have shortened the range of their aim/shots.

[@matthewmuir8884]

Scholagladitoria I'm surprised you do not mind that pike & pavise formation. It effectively blinds the pikemen, renders half the infantry unarmed, and limits the angles at which the pikemen can thrust. Furthermore, one of the main advantages of a pike block is that the pikes are so long that, if the first three rows have their pikes forward, that's three pike heads in front of each pikeman in the front row. This means that, if someone tried grabbing a pike and charging forward against a proper pike block, there are at least two more pikes the person would have to deal with. Having a row of pavises in between each row of pikes takes away this advantage. If they really wanted shields in addition to pikes, they could have given the pikemen small round shields like those the Macedonian armies used in combination with the sarissa.

[@professionalmemeenthusiast2117]

Unarmed shieldmen is a really weird idea. They should have had shorter spears themselves to add to the pike block, or at least have one handed swords and axes.

[@matthewmuir8884]

@@professionalmemeenthusiast2117 I agree. Interestingly, accounts of the Battle of Bannockburn mention Scottish spearmen as well as infantrymen with shields and axes.

[@ThatsMrFrank]

I can't see the video, there's a sudden fifteen foot wall of random bodies in the way.

[@MatJan86]

Yeah where that came from, and why no mention of that by Mat?

[@vlandianbutter9960]

That amount of bodies was realistic, but i don't think it would pile up to look like a damn hill.

[@Fr0st1989]

because a mound of bodies usually did form at the clash point

[@WhyUbrown]

What do you mean where did they come from? How about the thousands of dead cavalry soldiers and their huge war horse.

[@SonsOfLorgar]

+Nine_inch_Snails only the melee scenes before are not even close to dense enough to make those corpse piles that magically appears in the last couple of minutes of the melee and then magically builds up from about three-four bodies high separte circular mounds around each main character into a five meter high by fifty meter long mound ten meters thick

[@MrCompassionate01]

Battle was very fun to watch but Jon Snow is the worst tactician ever He has less soldiers who are less equipped with no formation who rush into arrow fire without shields. They let themselves get surrounded, don't utilise their giant to puncture through enemy lines, don't equip the giant. Nothing.

[@tyrenredthunder8779]

Well the most men he'd commanded before was 50, and he was never trained to be a tactician, since he grew up a bastard

[@bluerisk]

@@tyrenredthunder8779 In the books, he was lectured by his father about tactics, strategy etc. pp. and Sansa was also warning him about Ramsay's mind games, and that they have too -few- less* men. She didn't told him about the Vale because her attempt to call for the Riverrun army failed due to her ignorant uncle (the castle fell anyway). But this fail was thrown into her face by Jon over and over again, hence, she spared herself to tell him about the Vale army since its arrival wasn't sure at all. Jon hadn't waited for it because a change of the weather would had been their demise..they had shared the fate of Stannis' army. *being faithful to Jon's use of grammar

[@Rooster72]

And he lost...the Knights of the Vale came and turned the tide.

[@asasas9146]

And he is going to lead humanity against the White Walkers.

[@AtheistAnarchoCommie]

Still true after the Battle for Winterfell... all those Suicide Dothraki tho

[@porphyrienne]

Valyrian Steel, its good. But not as good as a katana. Can a Valyrian Steel sword cut through a mountain, 36 tanks, 200,000 inferior western swords and then rip the fabric of time in one stroke? No, but a katana can.

[@ericconnor8251]

Hah! The Chinese dao sword is even better than that!

[@porphyrienne]

NOOOO! NOTHING BEATS THE KATANA. KATANAS ARE FUSED WITH THE POWERS OF THE BETTER, WISER AND STRONGER EASTERN DRAGONS!

[@joshm3484]

But without a detachable pommel, a katana can never end him rightly

[@BlueSpirit422]

Should definitely strap a katana on top of a Spandau!

[@phaenon4217]

Don't these katana jokes ever get old? Literally every sword video I watch...

[@sorsocksfake]

Tormund: "Oh my god, they have a pikewall that's effectively one line deep, its movement and vision restricted by ridiculous shields and a second line that has to go through two locked shieldwalls before it can even hope to hit anything." Jon: "Ikr, I'm trying to think of a counter tactic to still lose to it, but I'm hitting a blank"

[@rrozinak]

How about... Ramsay: That's a nice castle we have. The walls are quite high and we have a shitload of good archers. Also we have very powerful allies who can help us and winter is coming. Let's line in front of the castle so we can make sure we lose the battle.

[@isaacshowme2708]

Like the romans?

[@tbeller80]

The risk was Jon and Sansa gathering more houses to them while Ramsay hides behind Winterfell. The Bolton hold on the North was very fragile and if it looked like he feared Jon, then the rest of the North might rally behind the Starks.

[@tbeller80]

The troops nearest the point of rotation make small steps or march in place during their turn while the troops near the wings take larger or more steps. The military does it during parade drill all the time. The pikemen would have to be making similar movements with their pikes straight up until they were in position.

[@sheogorath979]

Or they could... You know, charge the shield wall as it was forming? They won't be able to fight close quarters with 6 meter pikes and pavises and you have a bloody giant

[@TheCsel]

If I had a smaller army against archers and cavalry, I would seriously consider moving back a few yards into the dense forest for cover. Are there many accounts of battles in forests? I can only think of battle of teutoburg.

[@saljervantar2233]

TheCsel starks were the ones attacking, boltons had no reason to fight on their terms

[@rrozinak]

If I had a huge army with a shitload of archers and some savages would attack me... I would definitely stay in the castle and watch them fail misserably without any of my men getting killed.

[@broncosgjn]

Certainly. Hannibal also ambushed a Roman army in forest in Italy at Lake Trasimene. It is the largest ambush battle recorded in the ancient world. Hannibal did outnumber the Romans though. You have it right though. If your enemy had better organisation and is more professional in their formations and command and control then heavy forest can take that advantage away.

[@MrMiddleWick]

+roman Bolton wanted the great victory, sitting in Winterfell wouldn't give him the support of the North, massacre of Jon's army would.

[@CountArtha]

The Starks were trying to take Winterfell. If the Boltons drove them from the field, they would have been the winning side.

[@Ragd0ll1337]

I feel the showrunners intentionally deprived the wildlings of shields, helmets, pikes and organized charges. It reflects their lack of resources (being the invading, only recently settled, army) and their culture: highly individualistic and focused on personal glory.

[@Ragd0ll1337]

Also, the helmets would obscure the actors faces which is primarily a cinematic concern.

[@Ruarscampbell]

Why can't the wildlings make shields similar in construction to those of the Zulu? They have some wood, we saw forests close to the wall, and they have animal hides aplenty. Besides that I can't think of a society based on individualistic combat and personal glory, and fought predominantly on foot, that didn't use shields. The wildlings are abnormal in that respect. Helmets, meh. That's a viable conflict between realism and storytelling/acting.

[@arbhall7572]

I kinda imagined the Wildling army as being more of a stealth army, light armour, good one hit weapons for use in the dark. Hit, run and hide tactics, all at night. Never anything like this, they are completely ill suited for a massed, organized army. As practical and realistic as that would have been though, it would not have made for a good battle scene.

[@MaMastoast]

I dont think they'd have any real use for shield. I mean they're basically used to only hunt animals stuff like that. I don't tihnk wildlings ever really formed into an army before. Sure they'd raid, but that wouldn't be against armed opponents, but rather farmers and the like.

[@ChipMHazard]

The wildlings are more 'civilised' in the books and are basically stuck somewhere between the neolithic age and the bronze age with corresponding armaments. The show definitely focuses more on the primitive forager part, even though the majority of them seem to have steel/iron weapons for some reason. I agree that it's mostly just for aesthetic reasons than anything else. Making each group visually distinct from each other and making sure they have their own theme is something the show has focused on quite a bit, even when it doesn't make sense.

[@blaster23456]

No helmet can contain those locks.

[@zipp4everyone263]

They are the locks of war.... some even call them... War Locks....

[@charlottewalnut3118]

Zipp4Everyone I shall devour your soul for that pun in the name of Tiamat

[@shadowedambition]

He never met a girl he loved as much as his own hair.

[@ThaetusZain]

12:16 Hmmm maybe we should give the giant a big club.

[@DrSmokeTrees]

And a giant shield, maybe a spare door from Castle Black or something. They had to nerf him otherwise, Jon's army wouldn't have been the Underdogs. Wun Wun could have killed 1,000+ men if he just was simply armed.

[@sparrowhawk81]

This! What kind of giant doesn't want a big tree trunk or something?

[@nonemo138]

...and a pair of shiny, metal boots! The Boltons still had the numeric and tactical advantage. They could afford losing quite a lot of men to an accurately armed Wun Wun without the battle losing any suspense.

[@sparrowhawk81]

Cool smartass comment, bro. Anyway, if that giant had had a huge club, he could have clubbed his way out through those little punks with their pikes, easily. They were only about 4 or 5 deep. It's ok though because the main reason they didn't do smart things like that is the story needed them to be losing really badly so they could pull the good ol Deus Ex Machina battle-save move.

[@MrMaesterz]

I was so mad at Wun Wun for basically not doing anything during the shield wall moment!

[@ArcanusEst]

About why the showed Jon getting pinned... George R.R. Martin has written the books to show the horrors of war. That has translated into the show due to Martin's creative direction. Martin became a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War and has adamantly stated his disbelief that war ever solved anything. It's very clearly the intention of these shots to dispel the idea that war is romantic, or honourable, or anything less than dirty, bloody bodies stuffing together to beat, stab, and mutilate each other. This was actually my favourite part of the whole scene because it showed how horrifying war is. Jon nearly died not because his strength of arms failed him, but because he was nearly crushed to death by his own terrified men.

[@Shiyulerche]

Provost, I totally agree. This scene immediately eliminated any sense of heroism or pathos the viewer might have felt until then, and I like it very much for that.

[@alexandertang4576]

George R.R. Martin, draft dodger, has never been in a war. Proceeds to write a story about war to showcase the horrors of war. George R.R. Martin, draft-dodging, whose singular authority on war is derived from a fantasy series of novels loosely based on cliche and edgy deaths. Okay.

[@RevolvingElk]

Are you trying to argue that war is to be romanticized? Because that's all I can puzzle out of your comment.

[@Michael-tk2ds]

check out the battle of cannae, sources claim the Romans where so closely forced together they couldn't use there weapons and most likely some of them did get trampled

[@ChairmanJMao]

I think he's arguing that Martin would be biased against war, and that shows in his writing. I don't think that A. T. is saying that war is a good thing, or that war is honorable, or should be romanticised. Just pointing out that Martin is not writing from experience, but rather from a deliberate point of view standing in opposition against war.

[@Altorin]

yeah the fact that they didnt arm/armor wunwun was absolutely a travesty. if they gave him shin guards, a shield and a big club he could have won the battle all by himself. he basically did as it is.

[@vlandianbutter9960]

The lore described wun wun as a gentle giant, someone who has little to no experience in warfare amd also dumb, take him as the likes of hodor.

[@ChipMHazard]

True, he only lashes out when provoked. But, that is not the same Wun Wun as in the show. The show version is clearly more intelligent and more aggressive.

[@thehajduk6451]

He is basically a dumb elephant but think about it when he is encoungered by a wall of pikes that do nothing but poke at him he would eventually get pissed and mindlessly destroy the enemy.

[@daddyleon]

No armour, no, shield, no weapon. That is your most important asset. You've basically got to protect him at all costs, maybe 2nd to Jon - suck a waste!

[@thehajduk6451]

daddyleon Wun Wun thinks he is playing an unarmed Viking warrior in Skyrim.

[@Mastikator]

Jon seems almost supernaturally lucky in this battle. There were several occasions where he should have died but just got lucky.

[@ARR0WMANC3R]

Plot armour.

[@ThePeteralonzo83]

Do you recall the conversation between Melisandre and Jon before the battle? The Red God has chosen its champion

[@MadnerKami]

+Mastikator +ARR0WMANC3R Supernaturally lucky. Yes, he is and no it's not plot-armor in the traditional sense of the meaning. The Lord of Light or an entity that amounts to what is understood as the Lord of Light by the Red Priesthood, is very much an established fact by this point of the story. What you see here is, literally, a Deus Ex Machina. Divine Intervention.

[@StefanS-ig2rm]

I think it has to do with him being resurrected by Mellisandra. I'll buy that he had divine protection.

[@Magnanimoose]

There is no proof that gods actually exist in Westeros, everything (red) priests do could just be magic or other things. In the Melisandre chapters in the books it's revealed that almost everything she does are just tricks and illusions.

[@mpmqbi]

37:35 But Hoplites didn't really use pikes, they used spears - the hoplite phalanx and the Makedonian phalanx are two quite different formations. The Makedonian phalangites who did use the pike only used small shields strapped around their arm so that they could also use the left hand to grab the pike.

[@Cabochon1360]

I bored my girlfriend by pausing the scene numerous times to rant about Jon Snow having a medieval army with no shields or spears.

[@Dell-ol6hb]

Cabochon1360 lol

[@Oversamma]

She doesn't deserve you.

[@Oversamma]

@callmecatalyst Thanks for sharing. We were all dying to know.

[@frankarnieri2751]

if i pause jon snow i dont think my girlfriend would mind XD

[@Oversamma]

@@frankarnieri2751 She'd probably mind even less were Jon Snow equipped with a big spear ;).

[@scraplord6390]

What do you do when you are ill equipped, unarmored, alone, and have a line of cavalry charging you ? I would say turn around and grab your ankles and kiss your arse goodbye.

[@greenmarcosu]

As you said, if only Wun Wun had a giant shield and some sort of weapon. Maybe just a medium sized tree with spikes in it.

[@edheldude]

Why even spikes if you can swing a 30 kg club around?

[@RafaelusOptimus]

If he had a tree longer than 3 meters he could've easily broken through the shield wall without having to get himself pierced by all the spears (as Matt recommended, elephant style)

[@blacklight4720]

"Savage" online

[@honeybadger4396]

+edheldude 30 kg? That's nothing.

[@edheldude]

Considering most medieval weapons are 1-2 kg, it's a lot.

[@Sp33LzZz]

If you watch the video HBO put up on their channel regarding this battle they mention that the horses were actually not cgi. The cavalry charge riding towards Jon and the part when he was dodging the horses up close was done in real time. I just thought it is an interesting bit of info, makes the battle a tad more impressive :) Also love the mount and blade zigzag charging tactic. Makes me wanna play that game again haha

[@pierre-4]

he was trying to save his brother

[@dextrodemon]

yeah i thought that might be the case and i was going to make a comment on it. i think lots of people would be surprised how much of most cgi scenes is actually practical, in general, not just with game of thrones.

[@Magnanimoose]

The horses might have been real, but that was clearly Jon standing in front of a green screen and it looked kind of fake.

[@Zedd0z]

+Frizy Actually he was standing infront of them, but they used a specific lense to make the horses look closer to him than they actually were

[@GeneralAdvance]

No that was a real shot, they just cut away just before the horses were all reigned in and a tight angle so they only needed a few horses to make it appear to be a huge charge. If it looks fake to you then i'm afraid the problem is with your eyes since that was a real shot

[@meatystew5088]

If they'd given the Giant a club (Or even just a tree) he could have easily swept the away the Shieldwall and made a breakthrough

[@HaNsWiDjAjA]

Really, with the pikes being as spaced out as that getting past the pike points and rushing the unarmed men carrying the tower shields should have been a piece of cake. Pike formations needed to have multiple rows of pikes presented to the enemy to be impenetrable; a single line of pikes well spaced out was just stupid.

[@MagneticDwarfReptile]

I really wish he would have started throwing bodies from the pile at the wall. That payoff would make up for the lack of a weapon.

[@Oberstgreup]

I was think that, but the giant seems to be pretty dim and none of the wildlings seem to be very open to learning more effective methods of waging war.

[@sophiawilson8696]

or arrow the shot at Ramsay ps in wildling vs crows there giant who had arrow. ps why the hell bannermen was follow Ramsay in first place.

[@oditeomnes]

Should just have used his bow aka handheld ballista that could scewer 5+ people in one shot from extreme range. What a waste of giants...

[@patmos09]

The "shooting into his own men" shit really pissed me off. Even though its Bolton, shooting into your own troops in front of your reserves is not good for morale. We aren't talking about professional soldiers who have spent 12 weeks in a boot camp with the stars and stripes getting hammered into their brains, we are talking about people that are little more than mercenaries. And if you essentially murder the first lot of those mercenaries with reckless, unnecessary friendly fire, the second lot is not going to fight for you. It doesn't matter how many men you have to spare, soldiers don't view themselves as statistics. The reason this has never happened is because it wouldn't work. You kill as many of your own troops as your enemy, but more importantly you would utterly crush the morale and loyalty of your own men.

[@ExUSSailor]

Your idea of modern military boot camp is wrong, and, frankly, insulting to those who have served. If you've never been in the military, keep your ignorant opinions about the people who give their lives for YOUR freedoms to yourself, asshole.

[@WexMajor82]

@@ExUSSailor Chances are he is not american dude.

[@Korijenkins1414]

Anon Nymous triggered. Do you need a safe space?

[@robertsroberts1688]

depends on how many 1000 yard stare moments that particular mercenary has

[@tesseract2144]

@@ExUSSailor You seem to have spent 12 weeks in a boot camp with the stars and stripes getting hammered into your brain

[@Andreas-wv5px]

i should start a drinking game. Everytime he says "shield" you have to drink :D

[@Ariana321]

We'd be dead of alcohol poisoning within a few minutes!

[@Andreas-wv5px]

that would be so true :D

[@C4ndleJ4ck]

I don't know who I'd be more annoyed at in the morning; Scholagladiatora, or the show writers.

[@wackywankavator]

24:56, no sword will reverse a man's momentum.

[@LtKharn]

Lol no just his momentum but the horses too, it's like he guys a damn baseball.

[@Kolvarg]

Yea that is my major gripe with this battle. Not only is it unrealistic when you actually think about it, but it just doesn't look good or intuitive in the first place. In reality Jon would most likely have been disarmed and/or had his wrists broken with the momentum, especially since it was a swing and not a stab. IF we take into account Jon's "magic" sword, then it would have simply sliced through the man and the armour and the men would fall forward, instead of having is movement direction inverted.

[@DrSmokeTrees]

Sadly, this is one of those cases where you're right about the science, but wrong about the film-making. There are some things that are still done to this day, only because the audience expects them, and because they'll think it looks "wrong" if you don't do it. Gun shots sounded a certain way is one, the "Wilhelm scream" is another. How people fly back when getting shot is another thing that general audiences expect to see. So you're right, The guy Jon hits in that scene should just be cut, and continue forward with his momentum, but I guarantee most people would think that is what looks wrong. Just like when someone gets hit by a shotgun blast in a movie, they go flying, because its what people expect. In reality, if you get shot, you just fall down, but that looks "wrong" on screen to general audiences. There are tons of examples of this in movies and TV, and it probably has a name, but I can't recall.

[@Spiiiderrr]

That was when I thought the Sword is also the bat from Smash Brothers

[@alexanderhunt2191]

+DrSmokeTrees sometimes, people don't even notices that they've been shot until they see the wound.

[@CarnalKid]

45 minutes!? Have I died and gone to heaven, then?

[@edi9892]

and he could kept on talking.... also I would have liked to add a thing or two, but still it was one of the best battles in TV.

[@CarnalKid]

+edi I've never even seen GoT, I just really love this bald headed fuck.

[@malnutritionboy]

+CarnalKid watch got it is really good.

[@CarnalKid]

+Melting Clocks From reading some wiki entries, it just sounds like every D&D campaign ever. I can do without that.

[@Thetermsofservice1]

Jon Snow should have given his men spandaus and katanas

[@scholagladiatoria]

And bags of pommels. And spadroons.

[@fernandopalacios1145]

Nothing like "End him rightly!"

[@TheGamersGuild1999]

Thats what they should have done to Ramsey.Tie him up and throw pommels at him.

[@stein1919]

that's just cruel.

[@connorbridges6208]

+scholagladiatoria wait. has Skallagrim's pommel meme bled into your comments section too?

[@harrysurf001]

how effective is dual wielding shields?

[@DzinkyDzink]

Good at sieges or if the battlefield turns into a stalemate like in the late medieval Nothern Italy. But as depicted in this scene it would be suicidal against any professional army of Ancient to Medieval era.

[@qwertyuiopzxcfgh]

How about also having a shield strapped to both of your arms and having one on your back, so 5 in total? You'd be like a one man testudo :p

[@Rage_WinterchiIl]

at that point you might as well just get plate armor

[@spineyrequiem]

Rubbish, I've tried it. It's far too easy for someone to slip a weapon between them and stab you up, and you can't brace properly 'cause they get in each other's way. If you're completely dedicated to not having weapons just use a larger shield with a two-handed grip, like certain modern riot shields.

[@TheDarkestPaladin]

spineyrequiem use a viking huscarl round shield since it has a large and thick surface with a good bashing capability

[@ruprecht8520]

Another aspect of shields is they can easily display which side you are on when everyone is covered in mud and forgot to wear identifying clothing. For that aspect alone I'm surprised the filmmakers don't use shields more often.

[@benjaminodonnell258]

I think the purpose of the crush scene was yet another reference to John's rebirth. As for John's fighting style, I do think there was an element of "divine intervention" intentionally being conveyed, not just with the arrows missing, but with the fact that John was clearly expecting to die and so *wasn't* constantly looking around, yet he always managed to be on guard for the incoming hits.

[@vlandianbutter9960]

The crush scene was just a misc scene was that improvised by the director, it has no value with the story.

[@Caesar_Himself]

This could be said of most of the entire 5th and 6th seasons.

[@DrSmokeTrees]

The crush scene was amazing imo. It shows the chaos of a crowd like that. Anyone that's ever been to a some huge, out of control event, can appreciate that.

[@catodahlia8449]

+Normal Owl Yes it does, Kit Harington very specifically said that was the moment where he made the decision to live. Up until that point he wanted to die again.

[@abelbabel8484]

That's actually a really, really interesting interpretation. Thanks for sharing!

[@Valkanna.Nublet]

"that would make a ridiculously long video" I wonder how long it would be if he had done it all.

[@biohazard724]

An hour or more. At minimum.

[@lGalaxisl]

We would've watched it either way

[@daddyleon]

just about right I think :)

[@kingcopper4929]

Without a doubt.

[@pablerarav9016]

I watch most of his videos at 1.5 speed.

[@davidurquieta9838]

just as a reminder, Jon once said, i think to ygritte, that the wildlings would not have won because they don't fight like an army and they don't understand the tactics... that would explain a lot of things from the wildling army

[@scholagladiatoria]

True

[@aeroengineer77]

Jon doesn't really understand the tactics either.

[@davidurquieta9838]

+Jessica N according to how this battle went... not really

[@aeroengineer77]

+DAVID URQUIETA don't get me wrong, I love Jon, but I think he made a lot of mistakes in this battle. Despite the obvious lack of shields and pole weapons (and helmets/armor) which might be attributable to the inability of Jon's allies to actually get their hands on these things - we know that his side had trouble procuring men and probably also had difficulty getting gathering weapons and armor - Jon was the one who caused their army to abandon their plan. If you remember, they actually dug trenches on their flanks to avoid attacks from the sides. If they had held their position they might have been able to avoid getting locked in my Ramsey's pike wielding infantry men. It might have allowed them to hold out with less loss of life until the Knights of the Vale arrived.

[@davidurquieta9838]

Well yes, we could argue that jon had not time to prepare or, even worse, that he never really came back from the dead (he really looks so traumatized...). The fact is that, in the end, Jon lost the battle, his forces were surrounded and basically being slaughtered. Lets not forget, although, that Jon snow defended the wall against the wildling army, so we can asume he does understand warfare. The result and performance of Jon during the battle might have been more about the circumstances and less about his own competence...

[@TheOZZ711]

I think that jon said that they dug trenches on the flanks to prevent a pincer maneuver from the enemy cav, this might explain why they are front and center if Ramsey saw the trenches

[@mattspare8835]

Good video, would also point out lack of any scouting at all, the Bolton force did not know about such a large force of cavalry until it was charging at them in full formation?

[@singami465]

Matt, are you excited for Mount & Blade 2: Bannerlord?

[@BattlerEvil]

that game is looking cool..

[@Anelikital]

If you haven't already go watch the E3 siege video, so glad they are improving siege battle.

[@EnraiChannel]

Who isn't? It is warband with actual siege combat and other direct upgrades to gameplay.

[@RedKrossSquad]

No, it's that old siege/faction mod for the original only it's a thousand times better!

[@Lord_Aussem]

It's gonna be aaammaaaazzzinnggg

[@Judicial78]

You have two choices when being charged by cav and you only have a sword: you can hold down low block and hope everyone is thrusting and not couching, or you can try and chamber the couch, though that takes really good timing.

[@Desintyx2]

Seems legit to me

[@Hosenloser]

Considering the shields - they did not have the time to level their troops up enough to let them learn ambidextry. You need that skill to use shields, as everyone knows..

[@scholagladiatoria]

heh

[@linkxsc]

As one who has absolutely no specific dexterity with my off hand... I'd still have a shield.

[@manueldejesusrojassandi3919]

27:47 "That plot armor is really really good, but what about some actual armor."

[@buckie_85]

anyone else notice that at 24:09 during the cav skirmish when the camera shows the Bolton army and Ramsay saying nock, draw, loose. his cavalry is magically back in the original formation?

[@SadeGames]

All good but the cavalry wasn't actually CGI in most of those sequences. They used real horses, including the moment when the wall of cavalry was charging at Jon

[@Uberdude6666]

Yes but it was really visible that it was just Jon standing in front of a video of the cavalry charging really, it kinda looked like, umh, out of sync you know?

[@mixmastermind]

+juiuffophiguo floaty greenscreenery is the technical term

[@MrMrMrMrHoopz]

No watch the making of of the episode. It's one shot.

[@mixmastermind]

+Akhilleus the battle is one shot, and the shot of Jon Snow is one shot. They are composited together.

[@mixmastermind]

+mixmastermind By which I mean the shot of Jon Snow and the people he fights. The rest of the battle behind them and to the side is composited.

[@youtubecreators384]

Please do a review on Battle of Pelennor's Field from Return of the King.

[@TheCsel]

like how the orc 'pikes' are only like 6 ft long?

[@rickycross356]

Chuck Lee If that dude haha the pikes are barely bigger than the orcs

[@cielopachirisu929]

Charge the oliphants!

[@novaskies5538]

no it doesn't make sense for them to charge, it makes sense for them to retreat into the woods and rearm with more appropriate weapons

[@ncg9691]

this is a siege

[@SimicFishCrab]

No it is not a siege. It is a field battle.

[@ncg9691]

They're trying to take Winterfell, the Boltons have sullied out to meet this attack and defend from the ground. Why would they charge openly into the woods?

[@Kamfrenchie]

well if they dont, you avoid a battle that's looking pretty bad for you

[@imspartacus56]

@@ncg9691 and why oh why did the Bolton army leave the safety of their nice warm castle?

[@SilverTounge85]

Great one! It was Smalljon Umber / Lord Umber, not Karstark btw that fought Tormund. Lord Harald Karstark led the cavalry (seen in the behind-the-scenes video). He died off-screen during the clash of cavalry or in the ensuing battle between unhorsed men and rain of arrows. Smalljon Umber led the infantry.

[@eac-ox2ly]

Truly amazing analysis, man. I love your channel.

[@scruffyswede1690]

Here is what I dont understand. Surely, after minute or two of chaos, the disciplined troops of the kingdoms would look for friendly banners to rally by and reform their lines. The wildlings are wild so I get why they wouldnt. But the others would surely rally by their banners, reform the lines and allow their commanders to regain control of their forces. Jon Snow has already told us that the armies of the 7 Kingdoms are that disciplined in previous episodes.

[@toolazy2thinkofname]

Not a word about the wall of dead bodies? I rolled my eyes so hard. Totally exceeded my expectations for cheesy TV battles. The wars cited as inspiration in which dead men became an obstacle (not a wall looming several feet overhead) involved gun powder.

[@billyb580]

I'd suggest you look into the battle of Agincourt, 1415. In the anatomy of a scene they cite both medieval and modern battles. They don't specifically say which medieval battles, but such piles of corpses did mount up in some medieval battles, and Agincourt is an example. Contemporary sources, not all but most, describe how bodies piled up in mountains. True the BotB is about a quarter the size, but the precedent is there. Historians of the like of Maurice Keen and Craig Taylor have concurred as such that these scenes appeared in medieval battles. Scholagladiator does talk at 41:00 about the crush of men, and mentions Agincourt, and such a crush of men at that battle saw 500 French noblemen crushed to death amongst thousands of French infantry. Similar scenes are cited however, of corpse mountains. Do a little research and you'll find it.

[@markgleason2078]

I think the problem with this was that, there wasn't any natural elements to funnel the men into such a concentrated area. This was, for the most part an open field, and the massive wall of bodies meant that people had to stop mid-fight and pile the bodies into that mound. Given the large amount of arrows and men falling down all over, it doesn't really support the dead crawling into a big mound. They were being killed in a giant melee which would be dispersed. It's a nice fact to show visually but it just looked ridiculous to me personally.

[@danofthedead1979]

AmygdalaOP the battle of Cannae between the Romans and Hannibal was an open field battle, historians describe mountains of bodies piled up on top of each other, admittedly this was due to the Romans being surrounded and wedged in, but there is a precedence. I believe the battle of Cannae was the inspiration quoted by the show makers. but yes, it was a bit ott, there is no reason why soldiers would continue to climb on top of dead bodies to get at each other, to that extent.

[@chibidakis1]

danofthedead1979 True, but after Hannibal encased the roman army with his Liberian Spearman, the mountains of bodies started to appear, cause they had NO where to go. The mountains of bodies appeared in battle of bastards when they were still in open fields to run and maneuver freely

[@Banzay27]

I found it the most ridiculous detail of the battle as well. It was like texture pop-in in a poorly optimized game. One moment, bodies are strewn all over, the next time they show you a zoomed out shot, which is not very long after the last, there's a veritable mountain of bodies just as it's time for them to get encircled. Oh and Jon's army all somehow became concentrated on the other side of that mountain. When did that happen? I've read they had too little time to properly shoot the battle and relatively slapped footage together, but it's not the first time the show's made such camera cuts that skip or obscure real-time development in order to shoehorn circumstances in.

[@absurdentropy]

Funny, I personally thought the suffocation/ crushing scene was one of my favorite parts of the whole battle. It's a horrible thing which I imagine did happen somewhat regularly, when you are surrounded by other terrified people in a closed area, and its not really portrayed all that often. Maybe it's because I am somewhat claustrophobic myself, but it's a scene I won't easily forget.

[@hellofellowhumans9353]

Did you forget?

[@ryangunwitch-black]

20:57 I thought that was a cool little detail (probably a directorial decision to imply Jon's "Screw it, I'm probably going to die..." attitude) when he unbelts the scabbard and just tosses it as he draws Longclaw. From some of my reading and things gleaned from your channel and Tod's Workshop, I imagine scabbards were often tossed like this once it came down to using a sword in a battle like this.

[@JeffCfreeradiorevolution]

Good video! Couple things: suffocating scene was very effective in relaying the hopelessness of their situation. I thought it was really good. You're right 100% on shields; they are as essential as boots! The Bolton army arrangement was clearly done for cinematic effect (looked awesome). I think Wun Wun should've had a club. He could use it as a shield too... He would've been more effective. Even still, he was clutch and single-handed-idly besieged Winterful successfully. Great episode! Battles are so big in this series.

[@Gulaschkoenig]

Thanks for the very good review of the battle. You did in my point of view tackle nearly all the issues, I had with the battle as well. Maybe one point you missed is the mountain of of wounded or dead. The arrangement seems exaggerated or better to artificial to me, due to the fact, that the battle was at the beginning far more spread out. And: Where are the dead horses? In addition, I don't really think that the encirclement would have worked exactly in that way. I think in reality JS's warriors would have fought against the attempt of encirclement. Sir Davos' archers actually reach the troops in time to get encircled as well. Why would they do that? Or let it happen. The battle left me with one question, of which I hope that you can give me your opinion to it. When the cavalry of the Vale attacks, they form a wedge. I have read about it in books as tactical formation. However, in one of my older books, maybe not reflecting the up-to-date knowledge of science, the existence or actual use in a battle of a wedge as tactical formation was neglected. In the book the wedge was only considered as formation for show or as misshaped form of a cavalry formation not reaching its target at the same time. I therefore wonder, if the wedge was therefore a valid fighting formation for battle.

[@Gulaschkoenig]

+scholagladiatoria

[@tyrenredthunder8779]

I think the reason Jon's army didn't have shields, helmets or pikes, is because he didn't have a place to make such things, nor the materials, he was fighting this battle to take Winterfell, which is a place where he can make weapons and armour

[@MarcRitzMD]

Matt, has there ever been spears or pikes which had deterrents for the grabbing of the ends? Maybe barbed wire?

[@LtKharn]

In a pike block their would be another pike just behind the tip of the first so if you grab the first, the second can stab you. s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2d/0d/7a/2d0d7a7528da3016d087d6f34e7acf48.jpg

[@LordEsel88]

That is a very good demonstration, LtKharn. The Macedonian pikemen in the picture are all carrying pikes, unlike Ramsay Bolton's men where half carry shields and half carry pikes. The ones in the picture can stab enemies as they get closer and closer. Also, the Macedonian pikemen hold their pikes two-handed for a better grip. They still have shields, but they are hung from their right shoulder with a leather band and fastened to their left forearm.

[@DaUnaDistanza]

Pikes a few ranks deep would help.

[@ieuanhunt552]

No because you want to move your hands up and down your own spear shaft

[@TheCsel]

well the swiss would mix halberds in with their pike walls, to bash anyone that got too close. That said, the swiss folk hero, Arnold Winkelried, was said to have grabbed dozens of Austrian pikes and impaled himself to create an opening for the Swiss army to break through and kill the Austrian noblemen who chose to lead the army from the frontlines.

[@Pyrrhus1ofepirus]

Many ancient writers and historians seem to go on and on about Celtic and Gallic charges as being strong & devastating initially but if unsuccessful or stalled the Gauls would quickly lose heart and collapse. They are also described as being individualistic fighters not fighting in tight formation based on their style of fighting, and the types of arms they used required a larger space than say Roman or Greek opponents. Do you find this to be accurate?

[@SwaAusch]

In caesar's journals he mentions the gauls would and were capable of forming shield walls and testudos when fighting them

[@stevenhopkins4118]

REALLY appreciate your approach - the ability to critique while acknowledging that it's a choreographed TV show at the end of the day is refreshing. Keep up the good work!!

[@Sacharius]

The 33:15(?) armor rant is on point! SO MANY times we see swords and other non-"anti-armor" weapons piercing armor, it's stupid! I was actually joyous when in second season of Marco Polo there was a blind Mongol army (super)man fighting a crusader in mail armor (let's not get into the historical realism; it was an awesome battle, ok?) and actually getting confused when his hit didn't go through, and trying several times with similar results (he of course won, in the end, because he was a plot-important character, BUT STILL) Note that even in that same battle I think they pierced armor quite a lot, but at least the gave focus to that one moment...

[@harrisonlowlicht]

My biggest issue with this battle was that the tactics displayed by the Bolton forces are completely out of character. Like you said the northerners are meant to resemble highland scots, so why are they using military tactics more characteristic of romans or greeks. Additionally these would be the same troops who Tywin Lanister consistently defeated in the riverlands and while that allows me to believe their extreme coordination it makes their clearly out of setting tactics unbelievable. Compare this to the unsulied who use phalanx formations and it makes sense given classical Mediterranean characterization of Essos but militaries in Westeros have always been characterized as medieval europeans.

[@jengaaaaa]

Robb won every single battle.

[@thumba-umba2699]

The reason movies dont have helmets today is the same people do not wear hats anymore: MAH HAIRCUT, BITCHES!!!

[@Heldermaior]

as for classical pike formations, their shields were strapped to the arm and they had a two handed hold on the pike. also they had several layers of pikes pointing forward so if you grab one pike, pikes behind could still kill you. Not easy to fight against. Romans relied on terrain to break the formation and then attack the pike phalanx through the sides and not to the front. that says something about the strength of a pike formation.

[@mjinba07]

It bothered the hell out of me that Wun Wun didn't initially move through that shield wall, and that no one was tasked with directing him - their most effective weapon. He's not successfully using a Bolton shield as a sweep until the Vale cavalry showed up. In addition to sweeping with his foot, he could have reached over, grabbed a shield, and swatted a whole pile of them down. He could have grabbed a couple of downed men by the feet and used their bodies like a broom. Wouldn't that have been something. But he just bats with his hands at the pointy ends of the pikes. Snow brought a fire arm to a knife fight but left the ammo.

[@andreashauschild5101]

I thought the scene where he is dismounted, after the cav charge and during the enemy archer volley, where he dodges various riders and engages various guys on foot was a bit wrong. He is using a long sword, and kills several people that have obviously chain with various leather armor additions with slices to areas that are in fact well protected by foresaid chain. the one thing that is sure, a long sword in a slice motion (not even a strong slice) will NEVER cut through chain. Only a chop with a heavy weapon to deliver impact damage or a pointy weapon with force would actually cause substantial damage, specially if there is leather armor above the chain.

[@pettersoderberg6903]

Andreas Hauschild Valyrian Steel, mate.

[@andreashauschild5101]

Yes, super steel that cuts through anything. hmmm.

[@ericgarcia7592]

Well, yeah. It's literally described to cut through almost anything. So nothing you said made any sense. You have to remember Jon has a special sword that doesn't play by the rules.

[@raphaelperry8159]

Apart from the shower of arrows most of the times that Jon Snow survived a "he was about to die then" moment were not due to his skill as a combatant but the blind luck of a horse careening into a would be assailant. Various foes would be about to cut him down and then get taken out, often by complete accident. It accentuated the combat of a grand melee where everyone got mixed in together. It's harsh. It's bloody. It's a mess. He's not necessarily the best fighter in the world. He's just really lucky. Surviving the hail of arrows on his own was pretty hard to believe 'though.

[@raphaelperry8159]

I am, of course, referring to the second volley of arrows. Not the first volley when he was still mounted.

[@bobdrenan4402]

Charging also makes sense in this case as it means snows army spends less time under fire by their opponents archers which they cant really match.

[@ротатоаск]

Question. Where do you read up about medieval/historical warfare. Books, online or both? I'd really like to get into the technical aspects.

[@michaelgiordano4987]

In defense of Jon thrusting through armor (in this ONE instance) one of the big advantages of Valyrian steel in the books is that it will go straight through steel chainmail specifically.

[@zsoltferenczy5487]

Please do a review of the Game of Thrones S07E04 battle :)

[@narendramartosudarmo]

Zsolt Ferenczy I was going to comment the same thing. 😊

[@bambam144]

yup no shields, no pikes, no helmets bad idea about the tactics: john's army has taken the higher ground. it couldn't outflanked. it defined the wide of the battlefield it's very important, if the other army is bigger than u. (last battle of boudica) it stand on a place with only 2 options; win or die (sun tsu). so far so good and then came john snow... goes emotional... and the rest is movie history. ps, something make me angry: these rescues in last seconds. meereen: the mother of all flamethrowers and her horse guard rescued the day. here: mr. fuckface and his knights.

[@ze_rubenator]

Jon*

[@GeneralAdvance]

Rescues that turn the tide completely can ONLY happen in the last seconds, otherwise they wouldn't be the last seconds.

[@bambam144]

oops sry

[@hrotha]

Not to mention, if scouts were a thing in this universe and Jon Snow knew the Vale army was coming, that'd be yet another great reason to stick to the original defensive tactic. Jon basically did nothing right in this battle.

[@TheGamersGuild1999]

But he was being protected by the lord of light. You can see his luck throughout the whole battle. Take away the brutal trampling scene of course.

[@DwarfLordAirsoft]

Mount and blade is basically my life. Do you play Nordinvasion?

[@scholagladiatoria]

I mostly play Napoleonic Wars.

[@DwarfLordAirsoft]

+scholagladiatoria i'm exited for Bannerlord.

[@filiprakic1485]

+scholagladiatoria matt do you play regimental battles in napoleonic wars, and if so, in which regiment?

[@gothamgoon4237]

Committing all of ones cavalry in the centre before the heavy infantry robs you of tactical flexibility. Bolton had the numerical advantage. All he needed to do was whittle the enemy down with his archers, pin them with his heavy infantry then unleash his cavalry on the flanks and rear. Job done.

[@marksaris7921]

What I found really interesting was that during Jon's strategy meating Ser Davos proposed the classic Battle of Cannae Hannibal-style double-envelopment tactic. Letting Ramsey charge and push back their center and using their flanks to envelop Ramsey's army. But due to awful leadership on Jon's part (and Rickon being to dumb to run in a zig-zag) they rush in and end up exactly like the Romans in said Battle of Cannae. Brilliant writing.

[@pierre-4]

why didn't they give wun wun a bow like we seem giants used before? we know people in game of thrones are too stupid to move out t he way a single arrow. he could of killed Ramsey

[@pierre-4]

zig zagging was invited yet

[@Keskorian]

Poor Zig Zagging, he never gets invited to birthday parties.

[@SonsOfLorgar]

+Kesko Rian just like Rickon didn't even try to zig zag or use the burning x-es for cover when he had an entire field to do so on and knew Ramsay was shooting at him...

[@Bluntskull666]

Rickon went to the Prometheus school of running away from things lol

[@phaenon4217]

+Bluntskull666 lmao!

[@pellaken]

this is almost as long as the epiosde

[@canemcave]

phalanx had several lines of pikes one after the other not a single one. That's why you couldn't just grab the line of pikes and get rid of them. If they grabbed the first line they would be impaled by the second line and so on.

[@SimicFishCrab]

in a traditional phalanx yes. But in the video you can clearly see there is no second line of pikes. Plus they can't even see what they're stabbing at. Absolutely idiotic.

[@brucemercer7753]

In the video you CANNOT see what is behind the 2nd Row of Shields. There could be more pikes there or there may be nothing standing behind the 2nd layer of Shields. What you see is Jon's Army on the inside, the a row of Shields followed by a row of Pikemen, followed by a row of Shields, followed by WHAT? You don't know. It COULD be nothing. But you cannot be sure of that. It COULD be more Pikemen and that would make sense. But you cannot see what, if anything, is there. Moreover... the Pikemen can absolutely see what they are stabbing at... not that they would need to see Jons Army to stab it as they are TRAPPED. The Pikemen are positioned between the Shields. The are standing in the "window" of the guys with the Shields. Unless ALL of the Pikemen are too short they are also likely to be able to see OVER the Shields. Humans in these periods understood HEIGHT and how it works for obscuring vision and for allowing Taller people to see over the heads of Shorter people. IN FACT their Infantry formations were determined at least partially by Height. They would line the men up shortest to tallest. The shortest man in each unit was always the 1st man in line and the Tallest always last. (and lets assume 20 men in a unit for my example). Then the unit would split in two... the Shortest Man through 10th shortest man would remain in line. The 11th shortest man through the Tallest Man wold form a 2nd line. The Shortest man and 11th Shortest man would then be shoulder to shoulder. And the 2 Lines would MARCH shoulder to shoulder Shortest to Medium Tall and Medium Snort to Tall. So... When they would turn in formation each man in the 2nd Line could see over the shoulders of the man in front of him.

[@mindremote]

Question about early firearms. Considering their load speed and misfire potential wouldn't an army of well trained archers have vastly surpassed their ability?

[@pp-wo1sd]

MInd Remote They were loud and generated a lot of smoke.They were really useful as a psychological weapon.Also people were really superstisious so it would be even more scary.

[@Xfire209]

Apparently not. Otherwise bows would not have been dropped in Europe and the middle east in favour of guns.

[@vincealvarado1729]

Is there any actual advantage to the draw, nock and loose, system of archery over just "fire at will" that we see in Lord of the Rings? Does a ordered set of arrow attacks work better than just a constant hail of arrows?

[@Cyricist001]

In short, Jon's a lousy commander. I appreciated GoT more without Hollywood tactics.

[@biggyvo]

He's much better when he's fighting for something. Once Rickon was killed he was no longer fighting for anybody, he was fighting for himself to kill ramsey. Strategy was out the window for sure, but this was a very specific situation where he suffered some pretty heavy emotional trauma right before the battle

[@Cyricist001]

Why didn't he make a club for the giant or shields for his arm

[@tlive3354]

To be fair, Jon's bad tactics basically lost him the battle. It was only the well armoured, helmet wearing cavalry of the Vale that saved him.

[@TheSimmr001]

had shields too

[@adidoi]

Plot armor. 😂

[@FeeDBacKMKII]

the Protection 200% XD

[@ocadioan]

Shooting into your own men is something I often do in Total War, though I have the advantage there that no one ever protests or mutinees after using a unit of men as bait to target the far more valuable enemy units.

[@X87778]

Was looking for this comment.😅 And one does not simply shoot his CAVALRY in real life situations. They're very expensive sheets, Light or Heavy. And if I have a cousin or friend being intentionally fired upon by friendlies because of Bolton's command, I'll bash his head cause he's not wearing helmet and I'll do it from the back. And I won't start about the Onion Knight leading the archers/reserves consciously inside the forming enclosure of shields and pikes.

[@CulinVlau]

I wish you had mentioned the wall of corpses. Imo, all those corpses were too neatly piled up, and it was created a bit too quickly. And as a point of nitpick, the big guy that fights with Tormund is Lord Umber, who brought Rickon to Ramsay.

[@basilbrushbooshieboosh5302]

Hi Matt Concerning Snow's tactics when standing with sword confronted with cavalry charging him, I heard back in my school ancient history class 40 yrs ago, that Alexander's Macedonians' used to slide feet first under the horse and use a blade/hook-shaped blade to slice open the underbelly of the house. Can you confirm this? Cheers

[@lieutenantkettch]

Armor only works when it's Arya trying to stab the Hound.

[@nextgame4059]

One thing you missed: There is a scene where one Shieldman does "open" the wall putting his shield aside to stab someone with a shortsword. So you were wrong, they do have weapons. And I was really hoping that you comment on this move (bc I thought it looked realistic and I have some memories that the roman armies used to do this sort of stuff, Did you like that?)

[@jakubhanak4223]

I wonder how many times you have said the word ´´shield´´ :-D

[@dendronkenfoetus]

Dear Matt, this was absolutely delightful! Thank you so much for this entertaining and educative battle review!

[@MadM0nkey]

Wun wun would've been deadly with wooden armor and shield, along with a giant sling shooting rocks and any sort of giant (and relatively light) staff like club with a bunch of nails towards it's business end.. one would actually be limited only by imagination in making him deadlier in a field battle that doesn't even seem to have any sort of seige weapons