Game of Thrones’ Problem Was Never Running Out of Books

[@QuinnTheGM]

BEFORE YOU COMMENT! I misspoke in the Star Wars section - I meant to say Rise of Skywalker (which sucks) rather than the Last Jedi (which I quite like) - specifically insofar as the Rise of Skywalker feels like a completely unplanned panic response to the Last Jedi.

[@Ilargizuri]

Interesting I was going to ask if you confused these 2 because you said Last Jedi but showed Rise of Skywalker (Picture), so I was a little confused. I also hope that they will greenlight and produce an animated Show of GoT, it would solve a lot of Issues the show had. One being Age restrictions, another one being Animal security and care and training (the excuse why the Direwolves were cut from the Show). But I hope they will use a different title, you can catch a lot of old Viewers with the same Title, but Show-Only-Fans will always say it is not as good as the Original. Which won't be true, especially with the last 5 Seasons. So I would prefer a new Title ... maybe you could make a short about that and ask the Community for Titles I bet we could create some funny and serious propositions.

[@FreeFolkOfFandom]

Don’t worry about it all three were bad in their own ways

[@kynan1232]

@@QuinnTheGM Thank the gods

[@ellie6091]

I was writing a tweet at you asking how you could hate it when I saw this lol

[@clownpendotfart]

All three movies appear to be unplanned, without the coordination that George Lucas as producer provided to his directors of Empire/Jedi.

[@CameronEvenstar]

Be honest you're just upset they cut Jon Con

[@keturahspencer]

That is completely valid.

[@Grace-er9ep]

It's a good reason to be upset

[@carastone3473]

So am I!

[@wilheiminplatz]

i am spartacus!

[@wisdommanari6701]

Me too

[@Lord_of_Karhold]

Leaving out the Davos White Harbor storyline is a decision I'll always be disappointed by. Missing out on the Manderly/Frey animosity is bad enough, but not getting to hear the passionate speeches of Wylla and Wyman is a huge letdown

[@ModuliOfRiemannSurfaces]

Yeah that was some of the best stuff in the series. Psychotic writing decision to cut the northern conspiracy shit.

[@hdmb9180]

Yeah they wouldn’t even have to change the story much and they could’ve got the conspiracy done in the season to build up to the battle of the bastards. The payoff of Jon Snow being made King in the North would’ve been even better.

[@EmilyShylahh]

Absolutely! Some of my favorite parts of the books!

[@CommanderLongJohn]

​@@ModuliOfRiemannSurfacesThey did the North dirty as **** from the very beginning. They cut out enough characters in general ya know, about 75% of them I'd say just at a glance. But you know virtually *nobody* up in the North, and it couldn't be more clear D&D likely thought that entire 'section' and characters were 'boring' and dull. In the show, you basically know who four other House's are up North, who basically play very inconsequential roles throughout most of the show aside from the 'important' (and often nonsensical) bits. They cut out all those different people loyal to House Stark and Robb, they turned a guy like Small Jon Umber into a backstabbing POS and disappeared the Greatjon completely after like one season . . None of the Mormont women are included (you see some bucktooth old hag who's supposed to be the mom in a single scene) other than the annoying little girl in the second to last season. No House Blackwood. Manderly was reduced to a one-off scene craven side character, it's horrendous in retrospective.

[@j-rey-]

The worst change they made was having Littlefinger give Sansa to the Boltons. There was no justifying it whatsoever. Even the most casual of fans knew that Littlefinger would NEVER do that and that it was a terrible idea. That was the moment they irrevocably broke the series beyond repair. As to your "easy layups" section, D&D no longer cared whether or not there were scenes that could be amazing with a little effort. They optimized 100% for the easiest choice possible. If they had a choice between an easy layup book scene that would be easy to adapt, but take a tiny bit of effort, or a half-assed made up scene that moves the plot forward and takes no effort, they went with the latter.

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

It was definitely one of the worst decisions, in that it turned Littlefinger into an idiot, giving away his most valuable playing piece to a monster for nothing, and because it broke Sansa's storyline, and brought in the idiotic "abuse makes you stronger" trope. I hate that change as much as I hate what they did to everything to do with Dorne - I'd rather they'd left the entire Dorne plot out than having to deal with the trash they gave us, inadequate felines and all, and speaking of missing speeches, what about Ellaria Sand's perfect speech about the futility of revenge; how a skull can't make her laugh, or warm her bed? Nope, she just stabs Prince Doran for no reason, and succeeds him for less reason. Not to mention what a waste of a great actor like Alexander Siddig that entire mess was. I'm pretty sure that they summed it up when they said that "themes are for book reports", and showed us that they only wanted to film the kick-ass battles, with a side of gratuitous sex. What was wrong with the canon sex in the books?!?

[@clownpendotfart]

Yeah, I know why they would want to replace Jeyne Poole (who was basically just an extra in the first season) with Sansa, but how they got there was stupid.

[@thereallofigirl]

What always annoys me about it is Jeyne Poole was only in like 2 scenes in the first episode. So they always had the intention of giving Sansa to the Boltons, which never made sense in the first place.

[@clownpendotfart]

@@thereallofigirl I wouldn''t say "they always had the intention". A Dance With Dragons hadn't even been published when they were filming the first season, and they didn't know how long the show would run. I don't think the Boltons are even mentioned in the first season.

[@tomb5850]

To make it worse they tried some real lazy writing to make up for it where Littlefinger says he made a mistake. I argue the changes made to Jon Snow's story are the worst because he is the main character. And that change to Sansa leads to her story directly undermining Jon's story. It was so diabolically stupid on so many levels.

[@ZachJones198]

It’s not a single moment but D&D basically refusing to have Tyrion go down his darker path I think really messed up not only his character but the overall ending. In the era where Walter White was popular I could never understand white washing him

[@giovane3738]

Not only they refused it but made Tyrion a pacifist 😭😭

[@BobPantsSpongeSquare97]

I get the vibes that they didn't want Tyrion to go down his dark path and essentially become a bad guy since he was a fan favorite to the audience. And so simply omitted it without thinking of the consequences later on

[@ZachJones198]

@@BobPantsSpongeSquare97 absolutely what it was. They enjoyed him being the comic relief and not the tragic character he clearly is. Everything with him the last 3/4 seasons feels off but would make more sense if it’s Tyrion in the books who wants to watch the world burn

[@nevaehaho61]

Just imagine what Peter would do with that role! He would’ve killed it

[@carlrood4457]

There's a problem between the concept of"l "war is bad" and "war looks badass on screen"

[@Mic-Mak]

The quote you're referring to is from François Truffaut, who said that there's no such thing as an anti-war film. However, decades later, there are a few film that have been praised for being successfully anti-war. One of them is _Grave of the Fireflies._

[@tansyhawksley9988]

Maybe not a mainstream view but I find battle scenes v dull. No one knows what is going on or who is winning. and the interesting stuff is before and after the battle

[@conradcash1472]

I think this is where LOTR is more easy to do on screen. GRRM presents war in such a way that they are very hard to be a just war, while Tolkein presented war as something that may be needed and justified.

[@Mic-Mak]

@@conradcash1472 I don't understand what your point is, and how it's relevant to OP's comment. Could you elaborate. It sounds like you're suggesting that LOTR is anti-war, and that the screen adaptations successfully communicated that. I haven't read LOTR, but I've heard hardcore fans (book fans) say that the acclaimed adaptation dramatically change the books, and turned into action films. To that extent, I'm not convinced that the LOTR films are effectively anti-war.

[@conradcash1472]

@Mic-Mak Return of the King as a whole, specifically the ending. After saving the world and being told by the King that they kneel to no one, the Hobbits return home to a world they fought to protect but can no longer live in. Hence, Frodo leaving Middle Earth. That along with a cursory look into who Tolkien was will show a person who saw his friends die at the Somme won't think too highly of war. I would say the PJ adaptations aren't the most accurate, but they are very authentic and communicate the books themes very well (though, I'm not a LOTR superfan for what it's worth).

[@roycewasik1007]

It’s crazy how D&D cut the shows two GREATEST speeches, which they EASILY could’ve copied bar for bar. Broken Man speech and the North Remembers speech not being adapted genuinely feels criminal.

[@pouncebaratheon4178]

Also Doran's

[@L3monsta]

The kings moot too

[@Dani_1012]

I will always grieve for Dorne ​@@pouncebaratheon4178

[@badvideosto]

true and cutting ellarias speech on revenge is just crazy to me

[@1997Nightwing]

Yes, another person who wants animated ASOIAF! I genuinely believe that it’s the best way to adapt the books, especially in comparison to how limited the fantasy elements end up looking in live-action.

[@gokbay3057]

Honestly, live action is probably the straight up worst medium for fantasy. Theater has it most difficult, then shows and movies. Audio or Text only mediums are good (songs/podcasts and books/poems etc), while visual mediums like art/drawings, comic books, video games and animation are all quite viable. It is sad that live action is the most prestigious (and probably most profitable) when practically every other medium is a better fit (we are talking about stories that usually originate in books anyway).

[@msherif428]

Honestly, if this doesn't happen as soon as the books are finished in 20 years or so, I will try my best to make it happen myself. Given that in 20 years, I'll have the writing capabilities and the funds to do it.

[@purplewolfr2000]

An ASOIAF animated show in the style of arcane would be the greatest thing

[@i.cs.z]

​@@gokbay3057 I'd say theater is easyer because if the level of reality is different there. But live action on film is geberally not the best for fantasy.

[@thedragondemands5186]

5:00 everything they cut and changed was purely to show off celebrity actors so they could win Emmys, thus boosting D&D’s profile so they could jump ship for a movie career. Case in point, Lady Stoneheart - they later admitted (I think it was Cogman) that they cut her out “because it would have made Jon Snows’s death and resurrection less impactful”…and I think that statement was actually genuine: they wanted to hype up Harington’s role for awards. Mentally step back and realize all this happened just to show off their favorite actors. Even Season 5 Dorne only exists, as they say in the commentary, in order to show off India Varma: “we reconceived the role to make it worthy of the actor’s talents”. It’s not that they cut Arianne Martell because they “dislike” her, or to streamline the story (adding back Dorne at the last minute was very bloated)….As you say they had no real interest after book 3…but we have to understand from an out-of-universe perspective, they were just burning through material quickly to get done, and trying to “show off” the leads who could win awards, to pad their resumes. Similarly, Wyman Manderley’s speech was cut and turned into a Lyanna Mormont speech…to show off Bella Ramsay. Similarly, and a huge example…do you genuinely believe that they had Ramsay rape Sansa, “because they didn’t want the cost of hiring a new actress to play Jeyne Poole”, as you say? Or because they wanted Sophie Turner to win them an Emmy for acting the hell out of a rape scene ?

[@clownpendotfart]

GRRM has said he disliked how Tolkien brought Gandalf back from the dead stronger than ever, which is why he wrote his undead so much differently. Look at how D&D handled other undead characters: Beric was recast after the first season (few would remember that actor), the Mountain (who'd already been recast multiple times) was hidden behind a helmet so it didn't matter who was behind there. Lady Stoneheart is supposed to be quasi-mute, but it wouldn't make such sense to bring back Michelle for a non-speaking role. Jeyne Poole was basically an extra in the first season. Viewers would not remember her at all, and wouldn't care the way they care about Sansa. Getting Theon to monologue about his memories of Jeyne Poole in Winterfell wouldn't cut it. And if they did cast some actress to play Jeyne, they'd still be stuck with the fact that Sansa only has 3 chapters in Feast/Dance and they'd already had her meet with the Lords Declarant about Lysa's death in season 4. They were able to remove Bran from the show for an entire season, but he's also the most removed from the political story at that point and had the youngest remaining regular actor (Rickon was basically offscreen until he was killed).

[@thedragondemands5186]

@@clownpendotfart that's only an argument they should have built up Jeyne Poole more in the first place

[@clownpendotfart]

@@thedragondemands5186 Each season is ~10 hours of TV, building up Jeyne Poole means sacrificing something else. Jeyne is going to disappear after the first season because she's not a POV character or in the vicinity of other POVs until Theon in ADWD. That's multiple seasons offscreen for a very minor character.

[@gokbay3057]

​@@clownpendotfart I understand while including Jeyne as fake Arya is unviable but that said, putting Sansa in that place was absolutely the wrong choice as well. It doesn't make any in-universe sense and is entirely out of character for Littlefinger to give Sansa to the Boltons. They should have just cut the fake Arya plot entirely or given the role to new character to show off how bad Ramsay is and to have Theon be a hero by saving them. Like Alys Karstark or Wylla Manderly.

[@manmanman2000]

Well, they did a great job in making Jon Snows’s death and resurrection immensely impactful... NOT

[@Darth--Malak]

Sorry guys it was me..... I killed Game of Thrones

[@staytuned2L337]

As long as you're sorry.

[@cipher48]

Did you do the killing blow or did you poison it slowly since s3?

[@spacecowboy5486]

You really are the song of ice and fire

[@hansolowe19]

Busted!

[@Myreflektion]

No dude, WE killed Game of Thrones 🫂

[@globesurfer122]

What's even weirder about their unwillingness to adapt AFfC and ADwD is that those books are FILLED with political intrigue, which was the stuff that they liked the most?? Why were they afraid to adapt Cersei losing her mind and Jon struggling with the complicated politics at the Wall?

[@ev3rybodysuck5]

Because the show slowly but surely became another Marvel clone full of good guys whooping the asses of bad guys while cracking a joke every two minutes

[@clownpendotfart]

Cersei probably got adapted closer than the average Feast POV. She agrees to the Faith Militant re-arming, tries to use them against Margaery, then gets arrested herself and forced into the Walk of Shame.

[@josephbulkin9222]

@@clownpendotfart only for the Faith Millitant and everything surrounding it to be corrupted by the atheists running the show.

[@giovane3738]

To transfer the mad queen arc to Dany I guess

[@joeyken81]

@@clownpendotfart But her character and personality were completely different. The Cersei we got in the show after Tywin's death, is book Cersei's opinion of herself in her own mind, not who she actually is.

[@aabbccdd4710]

03:26 removing the Young Griff storyline has to be up there. Especially the stuff with the bells at King's Landing is so obviously something recycled from what George told D&D but completely nonsensical.

[@clownpendotfart]

If there was a good way to write the Young Griff storyline, GRRM would have already written it. His failure to do that over the course of 13 years indicates it's a path to be avoided, particularly in a TV show that must economize in way that books don't have to.

[@gokbay3057]

​@@clownpendotfart George has said that he wrote 3/4 of the book so it is entirely possible that he wrote the Young Griff stuff and that it is other characters/storylines that are holding him up (such as Dany and the Meerenese Knot, perhaps) from finishing.

[@NKJonSnow]

What are u talking about the season is great I loved the moment where Arya teleported behind the night king got on her secret trampoline and jumped silently to the night king and killed him I mean the whole point of GOT is to surprise us and what is more of a plot twist than that. I mean who has a better story than Arya the Teleporter.

[@VirtualSatyr]

It made a whole bar cheer!

[@clownpendotfart]

My big complaint about that: she didn't use any Faceless Man magic-tricks to disguise herself in order to get up that close.

[@bookswithike3256]

@@clownpendotfart Why would Faceless Man magic tricks matter to the White Walkers? It's almost as if Arya has no business being important to that plotline.

[@clownpendotfart]

@@bookswithike3256 They would disguise her so she'd be able to get close enough to a target to carry out an assassination. Arya was intended to be part of that plotline in the original pitch letter: "Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others."

[@bookswithike3256]

@@clownpendotfart ... Yeah that doesn't say what you said it did.

[@josephyoung2593]

You're onto something here; I think D&D ultimately saw the show as an exercise in career development and, once they were known for it, rapidly lost interest in the project. Those of us who had some genuine intellectual skin in the game can take some small, vindictive solace in the fact that their subsequent careers have consisted of basically nothing.

[@dominiqueodom3099]

Oh the irony. They wanted The creative pull of game of thrones to get other projects,yet they revealed themselves to be hacks

[@clownpendotfart]

@@dominiqueodom3099 They did get more projects, and have a big development deal with Netflix after a big bidding war over them. Fans who think the industry hates them are deluded.

[@marcospatricio8283]

​@@clownpendotfartwhile the industry doesn't hate them, it seems their credibility has taken a dive... They had a project alongside HBO called "Confederate", which was unceremoniously scrapped, and before the last season of GoT, Disney wanted them for Star Wars. Netflix had them make a mediocre musical comedy before giving them the 3 Body Problem too. So I guess they did get a second chance, but still... The fact that they needed one is still a bit telling. Also, going by fans of the books, it seems they already made a good job at turning a (perceived) masterpiece into a mediocre show. I'm not one to cheer for other people's failure, but god damm if they don't have me doing it!

[@clownpendotfart]

@@marcospatricio8283 It "seems" to you, but I don't believe you're plugged into the industry. I believe there were other writers who were going to run Confederate. And I wouldn't say that Netflix "had them" do that musical comedy, D. B. Weiss just wrote it without Benioff. The book series isn't a finished masterpiece. There are still officially two remaining to get to the end. The remainder of the show wasn't adapted from any published work, but just ideas from GRRM.

[@FishDinners]

They got to write for the Three Body Problem and made yet another of my favourite book series into a mediocre slopfest 😞

[@knightofrigel]

What shocks me the most is how they just erased all magic from a high fantasy universe and how they sexualized all non-straight characters. I hated that they ignored all the complexity of the northern and essosi politics. I hated that they turned Jon Snow into a generic hero with no ambitions and flaws or when Varys and Tyrion became human rights lawyers. They also kind of forgot that Sam and Brienne are POV characters. And gods, they butchered my girl Dany so much.

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

It doesn't really shock me, unfortunately. They were a couple of frat boys writing for fellow frat boys. Maybe smarter than average and capable of good work when they're interested, but once they were done with what they really wanted to do, (the Red Wedding), they went into auto-pilot and let their worst instincts take over.

[@clownpendotfart]

They didn't erase all magic. The White Walkers/Others appear more in the show than books, and they had Leaf throwing fireballs rather using a torch. They resurrected Jon Snow, which STILL hasn't happened in the books. They revealed the truth behind Melisandre's glamour, which (again) still hasn't happened in the books. They had an undead/wighted dragon, which is something that has also never happened in the books.

[@knightofrigel]

@@clownpendotfart everything that was adapted ended up being executed in the worst possible way and still had to be simplified to end the show quickly.

[@tristenatorplaysgames6833]

Dark fantasy universe

[@josephbulkin9222]

I still remember what they said about the magic. That's unforgivable. Something about selling the story to non-fantasy fans(bar crowd).

[@VeritasTruthseeker]

It's long been my opinion that the moment GoT began to die was when D&D discarded GRRM's first script for The Rose and the Lion that may have begun introducing characters like JonCon and other people required for the Faegon story.

[@Ashbrash1998]

As well as all the references in Bran's visions. Like we got confirmation that Robb warged into Grey Ghost. And thsy in the show, the last thing he saw before his sevond death was Arya. 😢

[@EmilySC23]

I will die on the hill of Sansa‘s wedding to Ramsey being the end of GoT‘s prime. It made no sense for any of the main characters involved and was just cruel for the sake of being cruel.

[@snowdoll622]

It was shirtless Ramsey that was the end of GOT’s prime.

[@kristinawrites238]

They robbed us of the Vale & Northern conspiracy plots and I will never forgive that. It was definitely the moment they lost the true magic of GoT.

[@EmilySC23]

@ and let’s be honest; they could’ve easily let them take Winterfell back simply for getting Winterfell back; no need for another reason than the Boltons betraying Robb and stealing the North.

[@SoCalSon395]

The worst choice they made adapting FeastDance was definitely moving Sansa into Winterfell with Theon. That decision shows a total lack of understanding of even the surface level events of both Sansa and Theon's plotlines, as essentially the only commonality between book and show for the Winterfell plot is Ramsay gets married and r*pes his wife. It's frankly disgusting, and I compare what they did to Sansa to if they had let Sam randomly fall off the boat and drown on his way to Oldtown. They completely derailed her storyline for no reason other than to send a major character to a needlessly cruel fate, and in following it up they didn't even explore the effect that experience would have on Sansa, it just gets brushed aside as soon as she's out of Winterfell. Honorable mention to the Dorne and Riverlands plotlines, by not including Arianne, the literal protagonist of the Dorne plot, and then randomly sending Jaime there instead of Riverrun, it's worse than just cutting those arcs, as what we got instead essentially leads to the opposite thematic conclusions the book leaves you with. Dorne is behind glass for the first 3 books and 4 seasons and that intentionally gives you a sense that the people of Westeros consider it to be a strange land, and lesser to the rest of the kingdoms, and the familial tragedy of the Martells then humanizes this place and shows you that all the things you heard about Dorne before are really just racist bullshit pushed by the Westerosi elites who want to keep women and foreigners and common people down. Meanwhile for Jaime, his trip away from King's Landing in the book gives him the chance to define who he is when his corrupt and manipulative family members are out of the picture, and his conclusion is to reject Cersei's cry for help and try to make peace for the realm instead. In the show, we send Jaime to Dorne so we can see this foreign land from the same Westerosi perspective we've already gotten, and everything we see basically confirms that Dorne is a nasty desert country full of crazy ladies who will kill you without a second thought but are also always down to fuck, and the men are cowards who are simply made of lesser stock than the rest of Westeros, and Jaime walks away from it resolved to protect what remains of his family, even going so far as to say to Cersei on his return, "fuck everyone that isn't us." It's character assassination for one of my favorites, it's blatantly racist and orientalist, and again, they literally cut the main character of the plotline they were supposed to be adapting. Nothing's gonna top how they brutalized Sansa for me but the Dorne plot is rightfully maligned for how many different and ridiculous ways they fucked it up.

[@clownpendotfart]

I agree it would have been better to just cut Dorne then what they did. But it's ridiculous to say that giving Sansa that plotline is equivalent to killing her. She remained on the show and got to do more acting that Bran's actor did. And it's not like she had that many chapters in Feast/Dance for them to adapt.

[@thepunisher6674]

The problems with game of thrones started in season 4 mainly with changing tyrion and jaimes last conversation and tyrion killing Tywin

[@wolfgangstallionmusic5639]

thank you!!!

[@thepunisher6674]

@@wolfgangstallionmusic5639 youre welcome?

[@ModuliOfRiemannSurfaces]

Yeah outside of skipping Stoneheart this is basically where things go off the rails irrevocably

[@thepunisher6674]

@ Yeah it’s one of the thematically most important things in the story and without it brienne and Jaime just kinda meander around for like 2 1/2 seasons

[@Ashbrash1998]

SAME, like they could have easily added it in and built up references in case the audience forgot who Tysha was. Like Oberyn going on what Tywin and the Mountain did to Elia and her babies, Tyrion being married for the second time, etc.

[@aabbccdd4710]

11:38 also similar in that they both had the original author's outline but both chose to basically ignore it, only taking bits and pieces they liked

[@zombiewitcher]

Good video! For me, one of the biggest disappointments in the show was throwing away the book version of Euron. I think Euron's actor TOTALLY had the range to be the crazed bloodthirsty eldritch pirate. But they made him a fairly one note character who was more of a plot device than anything.

[@Maegorsteats]

Changing the battle of ice and leaving out the whole grand northern conspiracy was a missed opportunity as well. I think I’m looking forward to seeing that play out in WoW more than anything else.

[@johnreynolds2512]

The Tysha confession scene from Jaime when he confesses to Tyrion is one of the best scenes in the entire series to me. I was gobsmacked when I watched D&D's version of it, and bitterly described just how badly they'd f(cked it up to my wife as the credits rolled on that episode.

[@QuinnTheGM]

They just couldn’t handle evil Tyrion

[@Swatyo]

The Sansa plotline in seaon 5 is problematic to understate things. The Stannis storyline is also annoying because they build him up just to come up with reasons for him to be in a worse position, similar to dany in seasons 7-8. Even more infuriating is the fact that they gave Jon his storyline, rallying up the north to fight the boltons just to have a cheesy superhero showdown versus Ramsay. Dorne is basically cut with Aryane gone, FAegon is cut, it's like the took out all the meat of a sandwich and just left the two slices of bread with some mediocre sauce in the middle and rushed it to the end.

[@aabbccdd4710]

Hasn't George said he wanted to do a 5 year time skip, but that it'd require retcons to pull off and the books were already published? They should have just made the show with this in mind. It'd give them an original ending, different from the books but in a good way. They already got rid of some foreshadowing for things GRRM ended up not going for. Great video!

[@clownpendotfart]

GRRM wanted to age up his young characters more, and the show had them start out older and age roughly 1 year per season.

[@donaldjgumpofficial5754]

The 5 year time skip had to be done. The story doesn't make sense without it.

[@JanYaps]

I think the worst decision they made by far was the choice to have littlefinger sell Sansa to the boltons. Makes absolutely zero sense for littlefinger to do that and it was a hollow attempt to emulate the books while at the same time ignoring them

[@RobtheStampede]

They ditched the Broken Man speech because they fundamentally disagree with it. D&D completely missed the point, they think Tywin is great and that you can solve everything with violence.

[@t_hetty1758]

If it’s ever re adapted is love to see it as an animated series. With war of rohirrim coming out if it does good can be a new era for animated fantasy media and with that an animated ASOIAF that is more in line with the books (maybe eps r even each pov like the books) would be amazing.

[@ccorvid]

the fact that the red wedding is what began the decline makes me so mad bc in retrospect the episode wasnt even that good!! compared to the book scene. robb & catelyn die, and the shock value of that alone was enough to carry it for the show, but pretty much all of the background characters were basically just that. mostly nameless characters that the show didnt take the time to set up, or even show their deaths in detail. unlike in the book where we all know each of them individually, and watch them all fall one by one. also, them having robb bring his pregnant wife to the wedding just so she can be stabbed, and the storyline wrapped up neatly... i was watching a RW reaction vid yesterday and they were so mad at robb for bringing her, and theyre right! robb stark wouldnt have brought her into danger, but D&D did. and then they had catelyn kill walder's 8th wife, rarher than aegon. something about that is very wrong too. not a son for a son, and i just cant see cat killing a young girl, married into the family, instead of one of walder's "beloved" children.

[@Ashbrash1998]

I feel the show could have easily shown how loyal Robb's men were. Like even if they were nameless, they were still people too.

[@clownpendotfart]

You can't give minor characters the same prominence in a 10-hour-per-season TV show as you can in those books.

[@ccorvid]

@@clownpendotfart i understand, and would agree with that, however, with them splitting Storm into two seasons, and also having the first two seasons to build some of the Northerners up a bit more, like the Mormont women, etc, they did kind of have the chance, more than most shows. but they spent a lot of time in season 3 having us meet Healer Talisa™ from Volantis (?), rather than Jeyne of House Westerling, and changing Robb's story with her so that we could... watch the actors kinda smoulder at each other a lot, and eventually have robb actually Decide to dishonor the Frey alliance in a more premeditated fashion, rather than being more forced into "betraying" them due to his own unadulterated shame and guilt at having been 'seduced' once while in a vulnerable state, but not wanting to dishonor her either. even acting with honor towards the vassal house of the enemy themselves.

[@clownpendotfart]

@@ccorvid Robb isn't a POV in the books, so that stuff happens off-page and Catelyn merely hears about it later. Separate from the POV format of the books, his relationship can be shown onscreen (and users would probably be upset if that was just something heard about after-the-fact), and GRRM said it made him wish he could have written some Robb POV chapters (but then he always has more stuff he wishes he could write, like Harwin Strong's perspective on semisecretly fathering Rhaenyra's children).

[@JR-qr7nr]

Cutting Lady Stoneheart is the major turning point for me. They cut half the story out and missed a great opportunity for 1.) cool scenes with undead Catlyn and 2.) the degeneratation of the brotherhood without banners which fits the theme of the whole story very well

[@dolorousjohn5499]

God I would have loved to see the scene where petyr pimple gets hanged. Fuckin love that epilogue.

[@status_quo_post]

In hindsight the lack of Bonifer Hasty doomed the later seasons.

[@sassquatch212]

Not adapting Aegon and Jon Connington is crazy. I cannot fathom how they came to that decision. The Tysha confession too is a terrible omission, ruining Tyrion’s character development. I’ll personally always be pissed that they omitted two of my favourite characters, Victarion Greyjoy and Wyman Manderly.

[@clownpendotfart]

It's easy to fathom: it simplifies the show not to introduce new characters, and GRRM hasn't written where that plotline is supposed to go.

[@DEATH_ROW_DC]

⁠@@clownpendotfartand fAegon was widely thought of as a pointless late addition until 20 episodes of Cersei drinking wine in the red keep made his likely role in the story painfully obvious. Without knowing exactly what/when GRRM told D&D about the end game, omitting fAegon seems like a perfectly reasonable decision. And love George but the past 10 years have given me the distinct impression that he’s probably an absolute nightmare to work with. Could see them being desperate for more information on fAegon and George just keeps on circling back to their not being enough horses on the show or whatever.

[@sassquatch212]

@ removing what is clearly an essential part of the story, especially the endgame doesn’t simplify the story. Yes it means that you don’t have to spend time introducing the characters and the plot line, but it also means you have to force a square peg through a round hole in attempting to make the story work without that crucial piece. That’s a lot more difficult than just playing out the story as it was intended. The lack of Aegon is arguably the main reason the house of cards came tumbling down at the end.

[@clownpendotfart]

@@sassquatch212 I don't think you can know what's "clearly essential" when we still haven't gotten the remaining books.

[@sassquatch212]

@ it’s very clear from reading ADWD that Aegon’s story is going to be essential to the ending, especially for the King’s Landing/Iron Throne side of the story. We don’t need Winds or Dream to be able to infer that. George has even said there will be a second dance of the dragons. The destruction of King’s Landing is almost certainly going to be a consequence of that, thus making so much more sense than the TV version. If this is the case then how is that not essential to the story? And that’s just the broad strokes of Aegon’s story.

[@stevedulmage7534]

That Robert/Cersei scene in season one is slightly based off of a thought that Book Cersei has in AffC, when she reflects back on a time she chipped Robert’s tooth in a fight, and then he later brags that he chipped it in a melee. She then thinks that their marriage was a sort of melee. It’s so much better in the show though. Also my favorite show scene.

[@jordanford9320]

I think the scenes I wanted to see most were Tyrion playing cyvasse with young griff, the scene between Jamie and his aunt about Tyrion being twins true son, and to have the tyrells be the family they are and not cut down to 4 people.

[@mori1bund]

Excellent video (as always), Quinn! 🙂 Two things I want to add: 1.) D&D always said they want to make 7-8 seasons at most. The only way they could achieve that is by contracting the plotlines after season 4/book 3. But GRRM was massively expanding the plotlines in book 4 and 5. I guess that's why they decided to do their own thing (as you said, after the Red Wedding they thought they're that good 🤦‍♂🤦‍♂), otherwise their 7-8 seasons would've been impossible to keep. If they stayed with the books, they would've needed *at the very least* 10 seasons. 2.) I think introducing Lady Stoneheart more than a season after the Red Wedding at the end of season 4 would not be an issue: The Hound "died" at the end of season 4 and was re-introduced in the middle of season 6, and Bran also took a break during season 5.

[@noamias4897]

Imagine casting Ian McShane as a character that has the most amazing speech AND NOT HAVE HIM READ IT. Seriously if he had a Cameo account I’d pay him just to read it out, but to never get to see him act it out is so sad.

[@noamias4897]

Before getting into GoT/ASOIAF I thought I’d read the books first because I’d heard the show ended so poorly (which I thought was due to running out of books). But I quickly realized that wasn’t the reason at all

[@matthewbird1067]

Insane that they cut plots almost exlusively progressed through dialogue. Think of how many shows love to meander through nothing plots for most of a season just to keep the budgets low, and you drop 1.5-2.5 seasons worth of good cheap plots.

[@snowdoll622]

I think about this all the time. I stopped watching GOT in season 4, that’s when I saw all the problems which is funny because it’s so many people’s favorite. Shirtless Ramsay , Stoneheart and No Tysha were really all I needed to see the direction the show was headed in. I was always wondering what they would have done with Feast because it’s my favorite book but most people’s least favorite. Brienne really deserved the journey she got in the book instead of the show. The Manderly’s deserved better. Nimble Dick deserved better.

[@uuh4yj43]

me too, i always felt weird about stopping there, since it is beloved. but it was kind of when i kind of opened my eyes to what the show really was, first episode of season 4. there was so much prime-time tv fluff cheapening out the plot, the pacing wasnt great, and they showed a lack of understanding on what made characters and scenes great.

[@petercarlisle7044]

They had two major issues: Firstly: they cut so many characters, they thought were unimportant but turned out to be relvant in Later Books. Secondly: The characters, they did include where only vaguely like what they were in the books.

[@joeyken81]

amen

[@snowdoll622]

D&D had no intentions on adapting ASOIAF and it’s such a shame. People always go around saying it’s low magic setting when it’s actually high magic. People still think it’s a show where “everyone dies” where the book is more like anyone can die. The show started to run out of people who die in ways that make sense, and just decided to kill off or torture major characters for shock value.

[@timothytzovolos153]

I think the biggest issue in the show is the bending of the plot to revolve around a few antagonists. In the last 4 seasons, varys and littlefinger largely are inactive and dont really contribute much to the story, the dornish are lackluster to say the least, roose bolton largely isn't driving the story in the north, overlooking Ramsey's bad descisions and somehow bot receiving backlash for his part in the red wedding. This leaves us with cersei, ramsey and the others as the only obstacles while every other major character is one of the "good guys" who will go on to combat our three villans at some point

[@timothytzovolos153]

Forgot, the sons of the harpy is literally a faceless generic bad guy that folds as soon as their ringleader are discovered

[@clownpendotfart]

@@timothytzovolos153 It's not like the slaver antagonists in Dance are anything more than jabronies with no chance to win.

[@timothytzovolos153]

@clownpendotfart true, but the Harpy's sons still affect the story by giving Hizdar the means to propose to Dany, and the suspicion it brings him, which eventually leads to barristan acting against him and also hizdars marriage also causes quentyn to go dragon taming. All this is a result of the harpy's, they don't really have the same impact in the show.

[@joshuabgambrell]

I think after listening to Dan and Dave's interviews, all they really wanted to do was to adapt the red wedding. Once that was done, they didn't really care about the rest.

[@Al-ji4gd]

I would argue that the downfall of Game of Thrones began as far back as season 2, or at least it was on the cards back then. That's when the first big divergences from the books began. Yes, season 2 through 4 were still good in spite of that, largely because they were well-made and followed the events in the books in broad strokes, but that's when the first cracks started to appear, they just papered over them (I'm also still lukewarm on season 2 to this day, it just looks a lot better in retrospect when you compare it to the mess that the show became post-season 4.) However, after season 4, there was no more papering over anything anymore for a number of reasons: 1: they could no longer tie the events of the show to those in the books because they had already diverged so much. 2: they ran out of source material to adapt, and people realised they were a lot better at adapting stuff than creating it from scratch. 3: the best actors were gone, mostly because their characters were killed off (not much the show could do about that). 4: this is my most controversial opinion, but I think the showrunners stopped caring about GoT and seeing a faithful adaptation to the end. It became far too big and successful for them to care.

[@Matt-vh2ci]

Game of thrones died the moment Katelyn Kennedy promisde dumb and dumber a star wars triology

[@noamias4897]

It takes a lot of talent to ruin two separate franchises from two different networks at once

[@clownpendotfart]

They were planning on just 7 seasons long before then, and the cast have said they wouldn't have been willing to do more seasons.

[@Matt-vh2ci]

@@clownpendotfart yeah but like at least 10 episodes for season 7 and 8 would have made It less rushed

[@clownpendotfart]

@@Matt-vh2ci Perhaps, but it should be remembered those episodes were longer than the show had originally been as well.

[@ingen_nate_kenny6588]

Of the small scenes cut from AFFC/ADWD, the thing that most annoys me? Jaime slapping Red Ronnet for insulting Brienne. Not because we need Ronnet, but because the scene is so important for Jaime, allowing me to gaze at man he once was and say "no more" *and* because the audience would have loved the hell out of it. An easy lay-up, squandered.

[@markhenzel4637]

The very least that the writers can do are just do fan service. Most fans are happy with Sandor Clegane ending with his brother even tho book fans knew that not what would happen in the book. Daenarys should be queen with Jon as king consort. Jon kills Night King. Sansa as Regent of Vale. Arya vibing in Braavos as assassins. Jamie and Briene happy together. Cersei probably ended up dead by Jamie. Stannis wins over Boltons but died heroic death, etc for example. That could spare the embarrassment of terrible ending. Or heck, ended it at A Storm of Swords.

[@Lord_of_Karhold]

Yeah that would have been better than what we got. Just curious though, so are you saying that in this scenario Sansa would be betrothed to Sweetrobin? Is that how she comes out as Regent of the Vale?

[@markhenzel4637]

@@Lord_of_Karhold I don't know. Just a theory I got. I mean I really don't see Sansa ruled North as Queen tho. Also, Vale had been ruled by women for many times like Lady Arryn during Aegon Conquest and Lady Jane in Dance with Dragons and Lyssa Arryn. Kinda feel like GRRM basically winking at us desperately at this point.

[@clownpendotfart]

They were committed to reaching the destination GRRM told them about, which was supposed to be bittersweet rather than fan-service.

[@paulchristensen7]

Another thing I’d say is that I don’t think splitting Dance and Feast into two seasons would’ve been the way to go. Dance already has enough cliffhangers but at least gives us some climaxes to certain character arcs like Jon and Cersei. An extended fifth season, maybe sixteen episodes would’ve been the way to go, I think.

[@manmanman2000]

One of my favourite chapters of the series is the Varamyr prologue. Would have loved to see it in the show and it could have provided valuable context for Jon's resurrection.

[@billtodd2194]

Yes, this was one of my personal largest unanswered questions. Jon being resurrected by the Lord of Light feels wrong and the Varamyr prologue really hints at some more Northern style magic coming in to play. But how? Jon warging in to Ghost could keep him alive, but he still needs a body. Maybe a corpse like however Coldhands lived.

[@uuh4yj43]

​@@billtodd2194 i feel like we cant completely disregard the show, i think the lord of light coming up in jons ressurection seems like grr martin note to me, just consolidated into the melisandre character for convenience. i mean, jon dead on the wall, arent they going to burn his corpse so he doesnt turn into a wight? my initial thought was he wonders around as ghost for a bit, but there is a timer to his ressurection, unless he doesnt need his own body anymore, like bran. idk its a weird plotpoint to me that i feel like is hard to tie up.

[@fabvz5436]

The main problem is that they would have introduced several new plot point with no closure to them. Imagine you introduce Lady Stoneheart for her plot to end in two chapter, only for Dave and Dan to have to make up something from it

[@tevcon317]

didnt finish the video yet but how could you say they should adapt feast and dance right when even george himself cannot handle it right now?

[@PabbyPabbles]

Hell even the act of erasing the armorer dude from The Wall and feeding his soul to Tyrion for the show kind of corrupted Tyrion's character. As a show-only at the time, him giving Jon the advice about helping the other dudes train instead of lording over them made him seem "street-smart", which he isn't in the books. Every other beat where Tyrion messes up because he isn't "street-smart" seemed wrong and dissonant to me because of this foundational conversation in early season 1 that I didn't know they had messed with.

[@linetta2948]

great video, Quinn!!! it never ceases to amaze me how the asoiaf fandom seemingly ought to have run out of things to discuss a long time ago, but something comes up again and again! but i guess it's no surprise with so many characters, plotlines, got, hotd, and all the what ifs... though I digress! thank you for your work, love it! and looking forward to seeing more of it :))

[@geniusjohn8280]

Could it be not that the books ran out, but that D&D could see that the books clearly were not moving at a decent pace,let alone running out towards an ending. I wonder what kind of potential time frame George Martin had told them when they first met. D&D proved to be horrible writers but i suspect at some point they could see the writing on the wall and not in the promised books and figured they better start moving towards an ending. No way the show could have adapted every plot line and still be running today with huge popularity. The average non book reader would have tired of the major plot lines not moving forward at all. Imagine it was still airing and the audience said hey i thought winter was coming; what is it going to be another 10 year before it arrives? Then, if at a later time D&D moved to create their own ending there would be more characters and subplots to screw up.

[@secondeye1574]

1:25 Quinn I think this graphic is actually rather recent. The "seasons" thing is pointing out the pacing of the show and how they rushed the last two books not to mention the final seasons by likely following George's plot points but not understanding how he would have written it.

[@stewart2449]

I strongly dislike the Lady Stoneheart storyline but maybe it has a worthwhile payoff to justify its inclusion in the books. I was glad she was written out of the show.

[@TheStoneTargaryen]

To say that Dany’s just ‘off doing her thing’ tying her in with less important chapters…she takes over 3 flippin cities and becomes a queen at the end of storm, how is that not also a climactic part of the story :(

[@The_Struggler_]

Leaving out faegon was their biggest fuck up

[@chambirla]

Breinne bro they killed my girl. I know it's difficult but her inner monologue was só good, her self doubts and How she unknowingly overcomes them... Amazing. But its Impossible to do all that whitout Lady Stoneheart.

[@clownpendotfart]

It's impossible to have an inner monologue onscreen unless you have people voice it like David Lynch's Dune, and there's a reason people don't imitate that.

[@chambirla]

@clownpendotfart yes i know thats not the problem exactly. My problem is that they didnt even try with her carachter. The only thing she does in the show is fight and be annoyed at people. Thats it. Idk i feel like they had no interest in doing better.

[@BatFlash52]

I will never forgive the show for cutting Princess Arianne Martell, not my favourite plot line but I love 🧡 the character. But the North’s Loyalty to the Stark is dumbest plot line to drop, the difference between the Starks and the Bolton’s are the Starks rule through Love and Respect whilst the Boltons rule through Fear and Death. One guarantees every lasting loyalty the other guarantees you loyalty for as long as you have the most power and the second you loose it, they’ll turn on you.

[@CulinVlau]

“Themes are for eighth-grade book reports" David Benioff

[@billtodd2194]

Another one of the reasons they probably didn't want to adapt Feast was due to Cersei love. Fans loved Lena Headey and Dan and Dave were clearly more into the political machinations than the magic. They wanted to write Cersei in to being the big bad queen when in Feast you watched Cersei deteriorate. Her whole character flaw was considering herself the true heir to Tywin if only she had been born a male, but when she is in charge she is paranoid, shortsighted, and pushing everyone in to opposition, a terrible leader, completely unlike Tywin. Based on the Feast trajectory I was not expecting her to last as queen thru book 6, so her being the almost finale villain in the show was a weird surprise to me.

[@Divine_Chareka]

They cut so many important characters from the books. FAegon & Jon Con would've saved season 5 at the least. The Dornish plot is also building nicely in the books and is likely gonna be another intresting thing come Winds. And don't get me started about Stannis...

[@gingerbell07]

While I feel every character was done disservice by the second half of the tv series, I really dislike the way Arya’s violence is celebrated throughout the show. As you are reading her story, you’re painfully aware of her tender age and you mourn her innocence as she becomes more desensitized. I think that, like the show, it will be Sandor who leads her away from the path of violence she is currently on, but I think it will be much deeper and more meaningful. It could have been a great scene for Maisie and Rory, just like all the missed opportunities with Peter Dinklage and Tyrion’s dark turn.

[@bobjoemac1]

I understand cutting out and streamlining some plots that would have bored the audience like Brienne... but it is absolutely baffling they would cut out the Northern conspiracy stuff, Davos in white harbor, the mysterious assassinations and sabotage in winterfell is incredible... crazy they cut 90% of it.

[@iron_captain]

The show runners put themselves above the show. Finishing it terribly instead of opening the way for new showrunners with fresh energy was pretty arrogant. Same goes for cast members who wanted it to be over. Recasts and new personnel would have been the correct decision. Giving room for new characters instead of bringing the hound back and ignoring AFFC and ADWD would have been vital.

[@finalGambitShedinja]

they did the martel’s so dirty… a whole scheming subplot to usurp the throne and get dragons and its all reduced to “you want a bad girl, you need the bad 🐈”

[@goShinigami]

I don't quite know how to phrase this: I think, if the entire epos of ASOIAF was completed and D&D were to completely adapt it (instead of the reality that we have), the GOT show would've been better - so I technically disagree with your thesis, although I absolutely agree with most points brought up, especially the Red Wedding as focal point for the development and decrease in quality. My point: I feel like, if you're D&D and you really wanna adapt this part of the story PLUS it isn't even finished and you WILL definitely outpace the author, those facts will influence choices made along the way, even earlier than the point of your adaptation that run out of source material. In other words, you will "prepare" and adapt to you running out of material later on. It's easier to set the course by omitting characters and plot lines earlier rather than trying to figure out what the f to do with them once you run out of source material, and try to slim down the world to something you're comfortable and generally able to deal with by yourself (without the "help" of having source material). however this is not a standalone point and I think it does fit in your line of thinking and fundamental idea of what "went wrong" with the show. Especially the magical elements; they would rather trim them back extensively and early to NOT deal with them at all in later seasons, where they will be the focus of the source material that isn't available yet (and you D&D are neither interested nor talented enough to adapt it in the first place, let alone develop the story all by yourself). On top of that, the same would go for a lot of the themes of the books. As stated, they didn't think having (deeper, meaningful) themes would be necessary or good for the show - contrast that with the source material. Rather play it safe and loose early, throw it all out the window before you actually have to discuss, pay off, develop and resolve those themes. In other words: If D&D followed the source material more closely for longer - adapting all that it available faithfully - the drop in quality after that would've been EVEN WORSE (in my opinion). Let that sink in. So reasonably as they sometimes can be, they did the smart thing to dumb down, downsize and gut the story even before running out of books - but, if they had all of them and could adapt them like season 1 for example, I think they could've possibly done a good job at it.

[@clownpendotfart]

If it was possible to write a better follow-up to Feast/Dance, then WHY HASN'T GRRM DONE THAT OVER 13 YEARS!? I would argue that, in hindsight, the mistake was adhering too closely to those books and starting things like a Dorne plotline that they subsequently scrapped quickly because it just wasn't working. With perfect knowledge that GRRM wouldn't be writing the last two books, they needed to deviate earlier to come up with a way to reach his intended ending with a minimum amount of plotholes. Of course, they didn't know all this in advance and wouldn't have years to spend coming up with a more workable story than GRRM has over the decades. I don't think D&D ever said they disliked magic. They included a lot more material focused on the Others/White Walkers than the books have, and even made Leaf throw fireballs instead of burning wights with a torch. But things like the direwolves were impractical/expensive to have a lot of screentime. People talking in a room is relatively cheap and can make for good TV when you've got good actors. I think the septon's speech is worse in the show. I don't think it got changed because of animosity toward GRRM, but instead because they were writing a plot about Sandor (who is not a POV in the books) trying to assimilate into a more peaceful life rather than one about Brienne understanding what causes men to turn to brigandry. Sandor doesn't need any lessons on how men can be changed by war, he's already defected from an army to become an outlaw. There is a github repo called "got-book-show" from "joeltronics" which presents a scrollable grid of all episodes (up through season 6) compared to the chapters they draw from. A Feast for Crows is sparser, but far from empty. Most columns have an entry, though many of them are dotted rather than filled-in. And his page, while the most comprehensive I'm aware of, is still out-of-date and the Game of Thrones wiki contains more such entries that it's missing. D&D did NOT direct the Red Wedding episode of the TV show. David Nutter did. I wasn't expecting you to give them more credit than they deserve in this video! It's just false to claim that D&D were rushing to get to Star Wars. They publicly announced that the plan was for seven seasons LONG before the Star Wars opportunity came up. The cast have said that they wouldn't have been willing to do more seasons. If you want to claim they were rushing to be done with the show and to have a break from such a grueling production, you'd be closer to the mark. The most disappointing thing about this video is that you never even consider the problem of what do with Winds/Dream. The showrunners do not have the option of faithfully adapting Feast/Dance in a way that pleases you, then just sitting on their hands waiting for GRRM to write the remaining books. They need to write each season in a way that enables them to reach the end. If faithful adaptation of any material from GRRM's books impedes that, then they must discard that.

[@dilwitchspahlin4761]

This is such a dumb argument. George’s writing is infinitely better than anything D&D ever came up with, stop defending this slop

[@clownpendotfart]

@@dilwitchspahlin4761 George disagrees with you, because he says Ned yelling "Baelor!" at Yoren for him to find Arya is better than what he wrote. He also said he prefers the show's version of Shae to the book version.

[@uuh4yj43]

​@@clownpendotfart while i dont disagree with you that they couldnt follow up affc and adwd if they adapted it closely, i kind of think its weird that you think got writing is better than asoiaf writing. i think what d&d brought to the table was undertanding wide audience appeal and putting their own spice over the story. but in coming up with plots and character motivations i think they do miss the mark. they werent interested in telling a story that meant anything at the end of the day, which clashes with the source material they adapted very faithfully up to a point, so the show ends up this weird dissonant mess of basically two different shows, one that moves based on strong characterization based on themes and another one that has a plot that is functional but doesnt move towards anything specific. i think that if they had focused on doing their thing over the basic outline of the final two books while putting their own spin on it not only would they have made a product more coherent with itself, it would still have been beloved by audiences, because i believe a lot of the material of the later seasons is based on martin's outline for the final book. george has to contend with the winds of winter coalescing neatly into the end, but they didnt have to contend with writing a book to connect everything and then another, they had already simplified the story up to that point, so if they thought about the characters they made in their versions and wrote an original ending based on that, and followed audience expectation it coudlve worked(they subverted expectations😅), or they coudlve extended the show a bit to match the books and split the seasons. in the end we got a weird mishmash of an ending that doesnt match either set of characters or world, none of the d&d good stuff or george's.

[@clownpendotfart]

@@uuh4yj43 I didn't write "got writing is better than asoiaf writing". I said that in hindsight they should have written a less faithful season 5, because there wasn't going to be a Winds or Dream to sync up with. The last seasons would have to consist of stuff they wrote themselves rather than adapted, and thus season 5 should have been written more to work with that rather than books that still don't have a follow-up.

[@18pablo88]

Hello there

[@sockosophie3132]

Kenobi!

[@RobinNicoagain]

The absolutely braking point for me was Littlefinger's plot to give Sansa to Boltons. That brain rot was so stupid, I almost stopped the show but I made to the end. It just got stupidier by each episode.

[@KIL0]

The trouble w Game of Thrones? Too many Characters. Too many loose ends to tie up.

[@MoonManTheories]

Yeah this is a very good analysis. It seem like D&D had their own vision for the show that really followed their own guesses and theories and desired after ASoS that could not be altered by the next two books, much less Martin's later notes on the continuation of the story.

[@duncanonme8744]

Part of the reason has to be ego. They made some changes that were well received and possibly let it get to their heads. Examples of that are Ros, Arya as Tywin's cupbearer, etc.. But the accumulation of the changes and omissions eventually led to the downward spiral from Season 5 onwards.

[@byeoocg]

Post Jaime taking riverrun with jeyne westerling being pregnant and Jaime speaking to her mother while she went apeshit was so good. I'll never understand why they changed her to talisa and made her background somewhere from essos. It's just so awkward with why they made that change. Another change I didn't like is Tyrion becoming evil arc. Dudes a literal villain but they make him into a neutral good character in the show. He's so much more interesting being angry. Cutting out the sailing on the royne where he finds out who griff really is over a game of cyvasse and d&d cutting varys long game is so dumb too. Cutting quathe also. So stupid. Why?

[@XDestroyoxZx]

So what you're saying is D&D kinda forgot?

[@zachseatdriver9671]

3:35 its a bummer that they left out all of those scenes where jon connington was a person who exsists

[@fumadorempedernido-l9z]

I think Genna Lannister was a terrible omission

[@Zeupater]

7:37 I never bought their budget excuses after season 3. HBO was throwing money at the show. They seemed to make stupid decisions because they could. Ending Barristan leaps to mind. A stupid death not connected with the story. Bro decisions like stunt casting and bad attempts to subvert expectations. I’ve commented very little on this so maybe I’m finally venting a little. Maybe not D&D but Dunning and Kruger attempting to rewrite George’s story..

[@clownpendotfart]

The show was still cheaper than HOTD is.

[@TheRetroGuy2000]

I'll never understand the cutting of Lady Stoneheart. This is where the show began losing its footing. Maybe they thought getting rid of some of the books' supernatural elements would help, but then why add in the Children of the Forest's hand grenades?! The decisions to have Littlefinger sell Sansa to the Boltons and have Varys sign his treasonous note against Dany was a major betrayal of both of those characters, who never would have done such stupid things. Never showing a funeral for Rickon Stark was another really weird choice; this was the brother of several main characters. By the time Dany was roasting the common folk in Kings Landing, the show had jumped the shark.

[@nicodemusedwards6931]

D&D often understood the emotions of the characters. The hearts of their being, which allowed them to create some truly powerful moments. But they never grasped the world and story.

[@sentteri]

They left out Shit-Mouth. Imagine how fun that would have been with the right casting.

[@uuh4yj43]

as much as i think got was a disappointment, i do kind of understand how d&d got it to that point. in my opinion, they eventually wanted to exert their will as artists, which to them meant telling their own story and not george's. so they cut what they didnt care about, as they themselves have stated. they saw their artist input as the story and not how it was adapted, which imo was what they brought to the table for better or worse, they gave the show its distinct identity from the books. and as production got bigger and bigger as seasons went on, they had more and more aspects of the production pipeline slip out of their hands as the scope of the project increased, they held on to the plot as their one avenue for creative liberty, which was misguided but understandable. had they focused on implanting their "brand" on the story they could've kept it a show they cared about and a story that fans liked. they probably had a rough outline of the planned events by george, who still hasnt figured out the details of how all of that will coalesce in a satisfactory manner almost 15 years after ADWD. take two seasons per book after season 3 they would probably have made it one more season and made things work more or less to an ending that tied most loose threads and coalesced the loose plot threads into something akin to the future ending in broad strokes. instead they got impatient and decided that they were tied up with something no longer fulfilling their creative urges and made basically another show unlike the one they had been making up until that point.

[@crrlvrs]

Game of Thrones biggest problem was existing before the books where finished, sure GOT was gave us amazing moments and perhaps adapting in 2011 was the best thing we could ever have. Yes, me and other got to know and experience a fragment of this wonderfull story, but not having the full picture made things like ignoring the magical aspects of the story a risk when adapting ASOAIF, nothing was certain. Plus the way it (potencially) affected Goerge's plans will remain a unknown. But thinking this way about GOT won't stop me from loving what it was. In the end... it does no good to speak of roads not taken.

[@kfizzle5086]

I recall an interview where D&D read the red wedding and immediately set down the book saying they need to make this a show. I think they accomplished what they set out to do with bringing the red wedding to the screen then got bored and sought to bring the show to as fast as possible conclusions as possible so that they can move on to new projects. They just burnt out

[@clownpendotfart]

I don't think they were bored when making season 4. But later on I definitely think they just wanted to be done with it all.

[@shahilj]

Always thought an anime adaptation would be phenomenal

[@Porifera-Jaymen]

3:40 JUSTICE FOR DORNE. As a Gantz fan, we got an anime and 2 movies based on the start of the series, then one off the wall adaptation of a later battle on its own. My far flung hope is that instead of funding whole new series, different studios may adapt stand alone plot points. 80 min of Arya's time in Bravos, Tyrion & Penny, Sansa and Petyr as they come to the little finger, y'know? I'd much prefer them to high cost, long running gambles that aren't sure what to keep, what they can include. That Gantz adaptation includes characters you'd need to know the plot as to know why they're there but for a new viewer, that set up doesn't matter, those characters are the protagonists simple enough (you don't need to explain penny, the circumstances speak clearly).

[@MistyWarden]

D&D were pretty honest from the beginning that the whole reason they wanted to do the adaptation was the Red Wedding. They didn’t love the series, they just thought that scene was cool and wanted to be the ones to do it.

[@clownpendotfart]

I don't see how you can look at the first two seasons, or the season 3 episodes preceding the Red Wedding, and conclude they didn't care. Even season 4 is one of the best seasons of serialized TV around, even if it's a step down from season 3.

[@uuh4yj43]

i didnt even watch the video, i just clicked to read the comments, i love asoiaf fans righteous anger at the adaptation and i love reading people complain about it, its pretty cathartic.

[@paulchristensen7]

Cutting Aegon and JonCon totally crippled Dany's fall from grace arc. Cutting Robb's will legitimizing Jon was an unhelpful change too.

[@dominiqueodom3099]

I've argued that the out of nowhere blindsided revelation of Aegon's true goal wouldve been the thing to push Dany towards her goal of heading towards Westeros

[@Eff_It]

I've been saying this for years. That line got repeated so much that people convinced themselves it was true. One book could have stretched at least two seasons.

[@Lionstar16]

Game of Thrones was ruined by the hubris of Dumb and Dumber and the procrastination of George RR Martin

[@FlaviusBrocephus]

Why can't he just fucking release what he has done? For fucks sake, I'm probably going to fucking die before I get to see The Winds of Winter.

[@11clarkec]

I think that one thing you're fundamentally missing is the fact that, while you mentioned the best seasons were up to Season 4, that GRRM stopped being so involved with the production of GOT after that season. You can tell by how well in-tune with the story elements that are adapted because the writer is so involved with the production, going as far as to write scripts, but then once he began focusing on other projects (ostensibly winds of winter but in reality off-shoot books and things of that nature) the show takes an absolute nose-dive in adaptation quality. It left D&D alone to exist on their own merits and those merits were, as it turns out, non-existent. D&D also started seeking the production of other projects after season 5, which is when you see the start of the most severe drops of adaptation quality. Everyone who has a memory can remember Confederate, but production for that began years before it was announced and became controversial and it shows just how much D&D wanted to move on from GOT despite it being an absolute money-maker and having huge cultural relevance and the very reason why their careers really shot off from the mundane writing and production before. They shortened the adapted material significantly so as to move on from it and by S7 & S8 simply didn't care. They knew that S8 was bad because they chose not to be on social media for weeks or months during/after its premiere. Anyone who knows anything about the way visual media is marketed, the creators and primary writers and actors are the staples of pushing it forward with media presence while it is happening because a majority of sales occur within a certain time period of airing, with a longevity of it being maintained and alive by said showrunners, actors, etc. But D&D being strictly anti-social media only shows that they knew it wouldn't be successful.

[@veritasinvicta8128]

Worst choice was giving Jon Stannis's storyline in trying to recruit Northern houses like Glover. They did Stannis dirty.

[@marilouba]

If they had adapted all the plotlines as they were in the books, we'd still be watching Game of Thrones, and maybe Martin would have an actual motivation to finish the books. Now, with the disappointment the show caused to the fans, is it any surprise that Martin is bummed out?

[@jacobmay2623]

Honestly, another problem with ever doing a live action version of this story, is the actors all age so fast, I think animated would be the only way, like to properly do AFFC, podrick would have to be an innocent child, not an adult

[@princelorian]

*but they did run out of material. Almost nothing happens with the main plot in feast/dragons. Its literally just Brienne,Jamie,Asha,Tyrion travel logs. Feast and dance are just meandering filler. I still like them but god damn nothing happens in them*

[@malcolmferguson4869]

One of my favourite non-book scenes is the conversation between Theon & Luwin at the end of Season 2.

[@jackbarnes7432]

My theory is that around 2015 DnD probably realised that George was never going to finish Winds and Dream in time before the show caught up. So they thought, why bother faithfully adapting Feast and Dance, if the ultimate ending was gonna have to be different anyway?