The Best And Worst Thing About Each Racing Simulator !

After decades of research I painstakingly go through the best and worst feature of each racing simulator , iracing, Assetto Corsa , Rfactor 2, Automobilista 2 , Rennsport
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[@izzieb]

The worst thing about every sim is hearing you talk about them.

[@MrCodyWarner]

Why watch the video?

[@Thomas-ve8ne]

@@MrCodyWarner poor guy has to watch it. he's his mod.

[@izzieb]

​@@Thomas-ve8neGM threatened to hold my family hostage and talk about FFB if I didn't watch the video.

[@MrCodyWarner]

@@Thomas-ve8ne oh….hahahahahaha

[@bleckan3]

Damn boy you on strike

[@MichiHoyer]

I feel honored to be called rFactor 2s best feature xD. Im actually not sure which feature of the game I would put up above me

[@AdrenaLukeYT]

Great FFB maybe

[@MichiHoyer]

@@AdrenaLukeYT deffo a great shout!

[@andrewcurtis4568]

For the (ridiculous) price, iracing should be fucking flawless.

[@Michelsen77]

Hey you even get rain with iracing right? 😂

[@TC2290-wh5cb]

@@Michelsen77 We do, yes.

[@Michelsen77]

@@TC2290-wh5cb haha fair enough! 🥳

[@damgam98]

The worst thing about all the listed simulators: Singleplayer is boring as hell with super predictable AIs and no career modes with progression, and Multiplayer takes way too much effort to get into solid race.

[@gamixccc5117]

raceroom have very good ai!

[@MashMashine123]

disagree for iracing and rf2 have very good and realistic AI, at least if you tweak it a little in rfactor2 (need to config it in the game files) ACC, AMS2 and AC have very timid and predictable Ai imo though.

[@damgam98]

@@MashMashine123 Funny enough i have not played either iRacing or rFactor 2.

[@carlgray6764]

i absolutely hated race room ... until this week when i reinstalled and spent time setting up and tweaking , to end up with it in 4K at the smoothest/sharpest most lifelike looking of any race sim i have ever played.when i first started tweaking it looked pretty awful . plus the AI give a good race with a real feel. all typed without a red dragon kb.

[@justpostedagain]

Tell us what you did!

[@badgeud5709]

I would like to know too.

[@Michelsen77]

unless you race in vr..

[@JetRed_7]

I can't believe you almost had Modding as AC's worst feature!! Anyway, another win for AC. You did fail to credit the best anti kerb hugging system in sim racing as a positive but, I will let it slide.

[@davidmurphy7332]

The best thing about this video: very entertaining. The worst thing about this video: the spelling.

[@vecnejhipik5349]

No LFM no ACC. Lets just hope AC2 will have proper multiplayer.

[@moogleslam]

I'm deeply disturbed by the lack of a table for this :P

[@Wilsonandcars]

Race Room is really good , after trying it out I am very impressed. Only thing I don’t like is the cars under steer on corner exit.

[@memoNo1719]

Setup? Correct driving technique would help a loty😁👍

[@abuelb]

Adjust the steer lock to maximum on every car. Match car steering angle with wheelbase. Then adjust ingame steering sensitivity to about 10.

[@memoNo1719]

@@abuelb I think that's the wrong way to go. Never play with the steering angle. The cars are all set up for RL steering angle in RR. As I said, adjust your setup and use proper driving technique, that's necessary to be fast. Understeer on corner exit is just a sign that you are pressing the throttle too early. Or you to be fast in the corner entey, brake earlier and use trail braking to rotate the car to the apex. And if the car allows you to reduce the preload, do it. And slow down the brake engine.

[@abuelb]

@@memoNo1719 I have no issue with understeer or oversteer. My in-game and wheel setup are perfect. I have confidence driving every car. All the cars drive very easy and realistic compared to other sims. The cars are just so stable and planted and easy to steer like a real car. No loosey goosey steering. All my laptimes are in the top 10 or top 5 in leaderboard (Ricky Bobby). No car setup needed. Just hop in and drive. The important parameter setting is maximum steer lock on every car and sensitivity down to 10. In fact steering lower sensitivity is the key to stable, linear steering feel in all racing games I play.

[@whitedragonracing]

Worst thing about simulators is trying to type with a red dragon keyboard. I know the feeling. This message was wrote on a phone or you would not have understood it.

[@jean-pierresarti7069]

Really enjoyed this one. I'd love to see more comparison videos, especially same car and track on different sims. Personally I like both AC and AMS2, while I find RF2 unusable and ACC like driving a delivery truck the cars are so dead and hard to control (due to complete lack of sense of speed and lack of feedback - are good ACC drivers driving or memorizing?) I love all the AC mods and patches, but AMS2 has the advantage of being made by one team with a consistent vision and being actively developed.

[@OsirisPL]

This video had a distincitive vibe of "I need a new video to make algorithm happy so I'll just ramble for 25mins and upload".

[@GamerMuscleVideos]

That's not how youtube works

[@Hellknight27]

I know I am in the wrong hemisphere GM, but fancy not having mods as the best feature of AC...

[@SimRacingFanDK]

Worst feature of iracing is 100 percent the price it is totally insane

[@thecrystalballs]

The sole reason i didn't get involved with it.

[@brandonchappell1535]

I bought a 3 month sub with my fanatec wheel (for $1.50) used it about 3 times and uninstalled, was blown away how little u get for the base, first year membership of $60, then goes to $100 next year!! Not a single desirable piece of content in any of it. Complete joke

[@SimRacingFanDK]

@@brandonchappell1535 precisely

[@scratchacker]

Tell me you dont only turn left with out telling me you dont turn only left😂

[@bakashinji]

I just got ASM2 a few days ago on sale and it's everything I wanted from Gran Turismo 7, all I need is PSVR2 support to come to PC and I'll have the most optimal experience, the handling might not be the most realistic but the racing that I do have against the AI is really fun and I can tell the AI isn't on rails like GT7, I know GT7 isn't a true sim, but it was what I spent a lot of time on. Got F1 23 recently and the handling just isn't as good as ASM2. It's awesome how ASM2 has a bunch of F1 cars throughout the years and you can mod skins in. Super fun game

[@freekshow]

Best feature of Rennsport: the potential for iRacing to have competition and make em step they game up

[@Daz555Daz]

I want that to be true. I suspect it won't be.

[@tonyseaton3833]

And acc + acc2 because of what rennsports will bring

[@Daz555Daz]

@@tonyseaton3833 the biggest potential problem for ACC and Rennsport is that they just spilt the already small player base between them and make things worse for all concerned.

[@stevenhenson4956]

And your convinced of this why..... majority of streamers are fps players

[@Daz555Daz]

@@stevenhenson4956 not sure what you mean by this.

[@GeneLinet]

ACC feels like sitting in the passenger seat on ketamine. I spent all day yesterday deleting cars in AC (after testing driving) and I'm still buried. Realistically I need 10-12 tops. But there's nothing that tickles the brain quite like it.

[@Logan912]

It’s funny. I absolutely hate dealing with the UI in rF2, but I can enjoy spending hours with Content Manger just organizing my AC car and track collection.

[@Jos-theb0ss]

AC keeps you cool.

[@keithwhite474]

The fact that only 4 people play rf2 is a plus. Sim elitism at its best always guaranteed top 5 and the terrible ui keeps away all the peasants.

[@WayneYelverton333]

😄

[@employeeofthemonth1]

For me rf2 is the "overall" best. It has decent driving feel, ffb, car variety, graphics, online ranked racing with LFM. The worst part about rf2 is now the ingame UI (hud). The other sims all have "worst" parts that stops me playing them.

[@Django45]

From what I can see, rF2 is starting to wane on LFM. I got better races back in march/april than during this season, which just ended. Especially in the rookie races like F3 and Cayman GT4. I have BTCC which I will try soon but I dont think I will spend a lot more on the game in the future, it is pretty expensive to get the endurance/GT3/E packs. And tracks.

[@employeeofthemonth1]

@@Django45 Yeah you are right. Only sportscar has enough people in EU timezone. Anything that relies on lots of DLC people dont have (BTCC) is a bit dead.

[@Skumtomten1]

Yea, so many great sims and I have played only half of them but Rfactor 2 is my favorite. Shame it's not more popular.

[@void_snw]

From the modders I keep hearing how the AC tyre model is flawed in many ways, mainly in how it handles temperature and grip when going over limit.

[@GamerMuscleVideos]

Yes it is , yet the end result is the cars drive very much like real cars with ffb that lets you balance at the limit.

[@syphe0]

"Just do stuff yourself and don't care what youtubers say" best advice from the video, the video is fun but if you're forcing yourself to play a sim because GM said it's better you should rethink your choices

[@marcusmiller8267]

My Accuforce V2 wheel (used with Sim Commander) can ignore the game force feedback in ACC and just use the data the game produces to create a very believable ff signal as set in Sim Commander.

[@GamerMuscleVideos]

I have a Accuforce 2 , unfortunately it has no way to introduce understeer FFB into ACC also ACC physics are really binary at the limit unlike AC/RF2/AMS1 and there is not a productive zone of combined slip , the end result is that you have to play ACC like racing which basically revolves around memorising inputs and procedures rather than "ballencing" a car actively. The accuforce wheel can make ACC feel more dynamic and less abrupt at least mind you. Of course all sims and real cars there is a ton of memorising and having a process as well :)

[@tabs1913]

Best thing about rennsport is it has no fanboys

[@crystal.starr0]

dr2.0: Best: Foliage Worst: Phil Mills being passive aggressive towards me

[@keepcalm1182]

I like the video, still, was wondering, why didnt you prepare youre Points in advance?;) (And maybe..why no timestaps?;)

[@paulcole]

There is literally something about every single one that at times makes me want to chuck my PC out the window!

[@elvish4432]

Gamer l❤️be the channel- what kind of headphones are you using- are the 50mm as well? Needing a good quality replacement- open to recommendations- thanx Happy Tea Drinkin✌️

[@GamerMuscleVideos]

Sennheiser headphones 599's and 595s are what i generally use with a mod mic 5 stuck on them.

[@tabs1913]

21:03 "in the history of literature" - ok that had me rolling 🤣

[@BMRace]

I forgot how brilliant you are lol. I forgot how much I love your channel !!

[@Emir_de_Passy]

As always, great video

[@bendonkin9449]

I make my own physics mods for AC (custom aero maps, tyre files, torque curves, suspension files, setups and overall handling) and I really don’t think the tyres are as much to blame as people think. I’ve managed to make cars that behave a lot better over curbs whilst also having more realistic performance in terms of power, downforce, grip, drag and overall handling

[@GIddyUpRetep]

RaceRoom's ranked racing, variety or tracks/cars and force feedback totally make up for slightly older graphics. When I am in a race, I never notice any faults with the graphics because the racing is so good. RaceRoom's ranked racing and the way it tracks your progress is fabulous. It is cheap too...the base game is free and the Starter Pack (which a lot of the ranked racing uses) is only $10.

[@Django45]

big sale going on right now. All content able to get for 50e when you use the vRP bundle. I am definitely going to get it and explore it further. Seems a lot more streamlined and accessible than rF2 (which is fun to drive but even on LFM it pretty much bombed and the content prices for the official DLCs are just way up there) for online ranked races. I loved the Mazda MX-5 Cup during the free try week (which got extended through the sale) I, too, dont care much about graphics if the racing and physics is very good and fun.

[@GIddyUpRetep]

@@Django45 Nice!...see you on the track in R3E. I really like the MX-5...the Tatuus F4 is a lot of fun too.

[@robcampbell6099]

Are we at the point where racing simulators are cheaper to shop for than actual groceries?

[@5GEE-]

hope to see your Moza R12 product review also

[@FilthyCasualRacing]

I need to try iRacing. I'm a newbie but haven't tried it yet.

[@Sl1f3rDrag0n]

What about the tire model of Lidl shopping basket/trolleys?

[@tvdg93]

Gamer Muscle: Best: Kind of funny Worst: spelling feedback

[@moogleslam]

I haven't played ACC or Rennsport, but every single one of the other sims drives me crazy in some way. I really hope Rennsport are taking notes at the shortcomings of each sim, and are addressing them. Clearly, they've got the graphics covered, and seem to be stealing iRacing's excellent systems. My only real remaining concerns are 1. VR support/performance, 2. handling/physics/tire model 3. Will it have enough player adoption/users. If they get everything else right, I don't care if their pricing model is similar to iRacing; I'll take it.

[@MrPaulJame5]

When I'm doing my shopping... You crack me up.

[@TroyDann]

Tyre please, you can’t be a serious tea drinker and use coffee spellings.

[@tunctoker856]

A lot of people are on rfactor2 now after they launched race control and it's spectacular

[@radugoguta5974]

@gamermuscle your ffb settings for acc have to be wrong ingame, because everything you described it lacks, it doesn't, you can actually feel the tyre flex, the dynamic range for the gt3 is well done for a car with hydraulic steering, the damping and dynamic damping settings have a huge impact on the feeling you describe you are searching for

[@robertthurman9866]

I think the best thing about RF2 is the 1955 sports car mod. Many classes and cars and a lot of fun to drive on the vintage circuits available.

[@Get-Native]

Yeh if we could stop driving GT3 cars that'd be great :D

[@regibson23]

What's this rf2 endurance rebrand?

[@MrBreakthompson]

Oh god, you might have to move after this GM

[@AlienWooshie]

I think the word you were looking for is inconsistent physics across the vehicles

[@ACFUN34]

I must agree about RF2. In VR is horrid...your hands look like some alien hand, the ffb is so vague for some cars. I find in general the ffb very harsh and noisy with a Simucube 2 Pro.

[@mtlnascarfan]

Red Dragon keyboard and dyslexia? I was going to ask if your shipment of THC edibles had arrived. LOL

[@Zabby]

We all know iRacing Oval's are peak sim racing

[@L_Emir_de_Passy]

Agreed with everything. Guaranteed to laugh when watching his videos.

[@AzagthothF1]

The advantage of Raceroom's worst feature is that older pc's and low-end pc's can run this without any problem.

[@zagg5154]

im not gonna lie i wanted to believe in the ffb in acc but, its just fell flat for me compared to ac's pointy force feedback. i can tell that theyve made improvements to the physics from playing millions of hrs in ac. but the ffb doesnt almost destroy my wheel like ac does. ive been killed so many times in high speed corners in acc so far, it feels like you just hit a patch of ice somtimes. i still like the game tho because im a kunos simp :P

[@andrewcrawford2093]

Best thing about ams2 is its better then all the rest..😉 best drive GTE..most of these other sims have been out for years and there still poo..

[@WhispersOfWind]

Your mic sounds great.

[@OhItsThat]

Worst thing about ACC is GT3/GT4 cars. Best thing about AMS2 is the classic content. Cars and tracks.

[@RacingWithChuck27]

Iracing about 95% and it turns to butter, slow spin, or the death spin. You can correct it with the black stomp. Ams2 worse is the shit MP. Best for ams2 for me personally is the CART cars. Ohhh the worse ams2 too add is the fanboys, way worse then any other, especially their denial of the mega bugs

[@Sauron.1]

I never played iRacing in my life but I think the best feature is voice chat, yes. thanks that you changed that

[@Johnnyynf]

The best feature of FR2 is the non functioning UI so I don't need to judge the actual game because I couldn't even get to that

[@CaptainCrunch99]

You made me laugh several times!

[@8Tarkus8]

I've said time and time again: Assetto Corsa Competizione force feedback is total crap, absolutely terrible, and I've decided to quit the game because of it. I totally agree with you

[@superjarri]

Couldn't agree more with raceroom, it's a shame that it looks so graphically outdated.

[@noobdaddyraces]

you missed out GTR2 - perhaps because it has no worst feature.

[@adopap1]

GM you 're a genius!!

[@mintcocobrown]

Please review Thrustmaster T818

[@stuart9968]

Tire or tyre ..?

[@erwinlommer197]

best thing about gamermuscle: rants worst thing about gamermuscle: rants and spelling

[@user-kf6oy1gq8v]

I want to comment on the ones I experienced. Best thing for AC is the mod community, without it the game would be dead years earlier. Also the overall physics are great of course. I agree that the curbs are annoying an also AI is annoying, maybe there is also a mod to fix that. For ACC the best thing is attention to details and licenses, having a proper grid of cars with all of the details liveries and drivers is awesome for me as a gt world fan. I totally agree with worst and I'm using a DFGT which the worst feeling ever trust me. The best thing about the AMS2 could be the dynamic weather and time. The slippery feeling of cars is worst along with not having proper track car combos, there are awesome le mans cars but we don't have le sarte still feels so weird.

[@fingers68]

My wife says, who is forced to watch on our sitting room TV. "there was a time when he used to sing, silly songs". Ps I drink more wine than tea, but what is FBB?

[@1InVader1]

What about Live for Speed? Worst thing about is obviously the old 2004 graphics, but what is the best? Weight transfer? FFB?

[@zhaomengyu028]

lfs can do all of realworld things ，even all of stunts，some stunt in AC or rfactor2，didn't simulate well

[@holgerreidenbach1878]

i agree, for 99%, but the best thing of rfactor 2 is, to continue race from replay. Not evereyone is KZbinr and can play for hours. So i play for example le Mans 24 h without time muliplikator over weeks. save and start, save and start ;)

[@noduj]

sim best worst iracing online mode tires turning into a iceblock when sliding ac content you have to google a lot acc weather variety can't call yourself a simulator if you don't have the Nordschleife ams2 graphic/performance camera settings rennsport haven't played it yet RF2 no interest raceroom good content FFB since update

[@andrewcurtis4568]

If nobody plays rfactor2 why did LFM choose it instead of AC? Seems like a terrible decision.

[@GamerMuscleVideos]

Most people playing AC are lost on the motorway so couldn't vote an d RF2 has quite active forums filled with people that dont play the game

[@isuckatthisgame]

@@GamerMuscleVideos lmao about the latter one 🤣 ac has a weird player structure tho... half of them are twitch drifting enthusiasts and let's-just-drive-to-nowhere-on-the-highway guys. then there are youtube f1 speed maniacs who nobody can beat, then there is open server wilderness where everyone drives tatuus and dies in the first corner, then there is rabbit hole discord league racing where you first need to meet 17,000 people in order to play the game, and then there are people who just drive alone variety of cars and tracks and admire how good it is.

[@WayneYelverton333]

@@isuckatthisgame 😆 Yes! That right there!

[@happydappyman]

Iracing best feature: voice chat. Worst feature: voice chat.

[@memoNo1719]

You forgot MK8 Why?

[@gaspermedved5803]

You put a list together about the best and worst of every sim but didn't put MOORHUHN KART 2 ON IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@Males_Should_Be_Abused]

5:00 don’t give them any ideas!!

[@andrewcurtis4568]

With AMS2 you just need to find the handful of cars that handle like real cars (about 10%). I've had the sim for three months and I'm still going through the car list to find the good cars, plus I'm a VR sim racer so you get a great immersive experience. Oh and you're right about the AMS2 fans.

[@GamerMuscleVideos]

The P1 which they updated recently and maybe some of the GT3 and GT4 cars are passable but they still have rather weard handling when it comes to being on the limit with them and how you still eventually drive by what feels like removing grip from the rear tires rather than moving the mass around or leaning on tires.

[@Nikolas4g63]

@@GamerMuscleVideos as an irl drifter and racer, ams2 worse feature for you is actualy the best for me. its one of the few sims (not all cars of it) that give me the confidence to push and that the rear end while slide exactly as i expect it to and control it. The cup car and suprisinglt gt3 cars without traction control are some of the best around. hell lately even imported pc2 mods feel quite realistic.

[@andrewcurtis4568]

@@Nikolas4g63 If only you were called Max, he might then listen to you.

[@isuckatthisgame]

@@Nikolas4g63 no amount of competence can prove that inaccurate handling model makes for somewhat intuitive driving close to real world experience. the better you are at ams2, the higher the likelihood that you have learned your driving fundamentals incorrectly.

[@Nikolas4g63]

@@isuckatthisgame bruh… do you even drive?

[@Werferharfer]

I hate the AI in ACC, they are just following lines that's it.

[@counterdebate]

No VR No Buy 😎

[@isuckatthisgame]

You are also shopping in Lidl? Based.

[@GamerMuscleVideos]

Lidl is best

[@Daz555Daz]

AMS2 is identical to PC2. Best and most efficient graphics engine by miles combined with a horrible mix of great cars and shite cars where they have not bothered to tweak the cars correctly. Also AMS2 has 3x more defenders in forums than it does players in public lobbies.

[@slaphead90]

Where's the F1 series?

[@Daz555Daz]

Best thing and worst thing review misses PC2 which was 100% grey.

[@velocitaaa]

*Tyre

[@GamerMuscleVideos]

apparently both spellings are valid depends where you are from

[@Hellknight27]

@@GamerMuscleVideos Yes, but you're English so 'tyre' is the only acceptable one, you're not a bloody yank!

[@GamerMuscleVideos]

@@Hellknight27 I can't spell in any language so deal with it !

[@BigMeanyVids]

I guess I don’t understand the Smurf account issue on iRacing. I mean you still have to pay for the content on both accounts so what is the issue? Confused.

[@GamerMuscleVideos]

Issue is there irating does not match the players skill level / people just dick about and drive worse than they would on there main account

[@ivanfojan8859]

@@GamerMuscleVideos their and their.....but after your spelling performance on the video I didn't expect any improvement in the comments section.... :p

[@RYVENANT]

FBB is triggering OCD

[@steelin666]

I don't know why I gave this vid a thumbs up.

[@blanchimont5587]

I think FFB is an incredibly subjective debate in sim racing. there just seems to be too much disagreement. i personally love ACC's FFB after the 1.9 update, as do many others, but for some it doesn't do it and that's fine. There is a rough consensus for each title but for the main sim racing titles there just seems to be so much variation between how much people like them that i don't think you can put an objective figure on FFB or use it in an objective comparison between titles

[@GamerMuscleVideos]

Which games FFB a person likes more or less is subjective for sure. I don't think you can make an argument based on a fact that x number of people disagree , that doesn't inherently make something globally subjective eaither. What causes the disagreement is. 1) different hardware 2) lack of knowledge of different sims 3) huge number of SimRacers can't drive at limit properly 4) lack of knowledge about haptics 5) some people wanting things to be totally literal with a sim cars steering wheel , whalst then ignoring that a simulator has no G-load which is fundamental to driving a real car and knowing where the limit is 6) people simply used to one sim 7) the fact you can learn how to be super fast with no FFB at all. It's an objective fact however that ACC lacks FFB details that other sims have. ( Other sims also have or lack certain FFB information, even within flight sims) For example if you play with no FFB at all that's objectively different to playing with ffb and way harder to drive a sim with. If you have a sim with ffb that has very limited dynamic range in it's ffb for say tire grip ranges then again that is going to have a massive effect on what it's like to drive , for people that know how to use this information to drive from. You can add or remove FFB to games using telemetry based FFB on an acuforce wheel or with apps like irFFB with iracing , IE different FFB produces objective differences and if those things are tied directly into the physics and specific parts of the physics the driver is getting more or less information to drive from , which fundamentally changes how one can drive and approach a simulator. Saying "it's subjective" without defining the specifc subjective aspects, is used as a anyodyn and manipulative way to shut down conversation whalst still coming across as an agreeable accommodating person.

[@linomanuelcarreira]

AMS2 is by far MP and bugs, horrid stuff ... then physics all over the place...

[@abuelb]

AMS2 belongs in the simcade category like FM7, GT7, PC2 etc. It has the worst physics of all racing games.

[@linomanuelcarreira]

@@abuelb I wouldnt go that far, and actually as i wrote this some of the cars i complain alot just droped in the beta with the new physics and i can say they feel alot better now... maybe not all but once 1.5 hits live i think people are in for a pleasant surprise. Lets see how it goes ... im optimistic, i never doubted Reizas capacity, what i doubt alot is the fact that although complex SMS engine is buggy as hell and the guyz at Reiza have been fighting that mess for quite some time ...

[@kolysion164]

@@abuelb shuuut, don't tell this to AMS 2 fans, they still think it's a pure sim

[@Logan912]

@@abuelbSo, is iRacing simcade then? Its physics are far worse than AMS2’s - let alone sims like AC and rF2.

[@glynnsmith4560]

Spell tyre prop... oh it doesn't matter...

[@zzmadd]

Ohh god I watched the whole thing...😆

[@GamerMuscleVideos]

sorry for your loss

[@WayneYelverton333]

🤷‍♂Me too...

[@freekshow]

Force BeatBack

[@rodrigolj]

Gamermuscle, you're so incompetent and you left it! There ya go

[@peterschuster4845]

Jawohl, grass fix engine, got it.

[@HriataKC]

Ha best sim title? Easy... NFS Shi..... No wait! I dont wanna die just yet

[@kevinkarabiner]

maybe try using paint next time xD

[@ZRG22]

Rennsport should not be on this list, it's not out and it's going to be a flop anyway.