Intel Unbends Its CPUs: 285K RL-ILM vs. Standard ILM Laser, Pressure, & Thermal Benchmarks

[@GamersNexus]

We launched some tabletop gaming dice last week to support testing like this! kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJW8eHmmepZ-itU BUY OUR NEW SNOWFLAKE DICE SET: store.gamersnexus.net/products/snowflake-full-tabletop-mtg-dnd-premium-dice-set-7-piece-dice-wooden-box-cat-card BUY OUR NEW INDUCTOR DICE SET: store.gamersnexus.net/products/inductor-full-tabletop-mtg-dnd-premium-dice-set-7-piece-dice-wooden-box-token-card Watch our video researching coldplate flatness when we made the 'perfect' CPU cooler: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bXOwiqaDfNWsfLs Watch our Noctua NH-D15 G2 review for more context: kzbin.info/www/bejne/npbVmod6jK6IaMk Watch our original Intel ILM socket explanation and contact frame benchmark: kzbin.info/www/bejne/j6TFY2isqLN1h6s

[@robertlawrence9000]

The bowled CPU is like an Intel "Lake". The electrons are like the fish. The more fish you can hold, the more power it has? 🤔

[@MrDoreius]

An arrow to the knee also means to getting married, just so you know. Edit: if you knew that: congrats!

[@NoVIcio_]

the video looks choppy like its dropping frames, but in the advance settings it doesn't show any drop frames and any other video looks fine, is this some kind of joke I don't understand? I'm on mobile

[@GamersNexus]

The video is not dropping frames. It's on your side.

[@osinstalls]

It's still 15th gen to me, though I saw a Core Ultra commercial yesterday and can see the marketing at work.

[@memeLaughLove]

Hope your knee recovers from this... thank you for your dedication making these dangerous videos.

[@GamersNexus]

It was painful, but I was willing to take an arrow to the knee for the meme.

[@C_rrptd]

If it hits his head, would it be called "Arrow (to the) head"

[@latso10]

@@C_rrptdI'm going to allow this

[@KenS1267]

You never recover from an arrow to knee.

[@markminch1906]

@@C_rrptd Despite being called Arrow Lake, they removed the curve to hold a pool of water in the cpu I’ll never understand intel

[@heytoast7129]

It kind of amazes me, given the technology of microprocessors and how precise everything needs to be, how crude the mechanism is that secures the cpu in the socket.

[@Demopans5990]

There is the one AMD uses on threadripper skus

[@GamersNexus]

At the same time, we'd better not complain too much or it'll go BGA!

[@Demopans5990]

@@GamersNexus Exception being the reused Alibaba boards using random scavenged laptop chips

[@SolarianStrike]

​​@@Demopans5990On the opposite end of the spectrum, there are Xeon CPUs which just use the cooler to keep the CPU in place LOL.

[@TheBackyardChemist]

@@SolarianStrike That is kinda genius on some level, should result in some very even pressure

[@Zapdos0145]

going on a cpu bender now are we?

[@jedidethfreak]

I didn't think Intel knew what "Default" meant, considering their power recommendations for 13th and 14th gen processors.

[@GamersNexus]

ooooof

[@ThatArtismo]

No kidding. We still have to tweak settings just to get voltages and heat under control. I learned more about CPUs, electrical engineering, motherboard components, etc. than I had ever anticipated since I moved to the 13700k. I can actually dork out with techies.

[@kopazwashere]

@@GamersNexus haha 250w go BRRRRRRRR

[@canaconn2388]

​@@ThatArtismoso what you're telling me is Intel helped with tech literacy! 😂

[@bigsky2211]

@@ThatArtismo I had the same experience 8 years ago with a 4790k, the immense knowledge I gained from keeping that thing at 4.7GHz and under 75c still helps me today when choosing which AMD processor to buy.

[@Redmage913]

Thank you for showing every time how a screw should be inserted without issue. Slows down the video very slightly, but demonstrating correctness is the best kind of correct!

[@Nobody-vr5nl]

0:58 "Dont get bloody, cut towards a buddy."

[@DreuScuhDoo]

Take a shot every time ILM is mentioned. Call your local hospital immediately.

[@andrewvirtue5048]

2:03 now _THAT_ is how you advertise. It's not intrusive, obstructing, or literally stopping you (the end user) from doing something. And again at 11:41. Great work.

[@LeesChannel]

Every time I hear "ILM," my brain inserts "Industrial Light & Magic." Every time.

[@Ironclad17]

It's bizarre Intel didn't enforce the RL-ILM. They really should use every advantage they can get right now.

[@chadhowell1328]

Kind of like how they didn’t enforce power standards. You think they would have learned from that whole ordeal but they continue to let others load the gun as they pull the trigger to shoot themselves in the foot.

[@heyarno]

I think intel also needs to bribe the industry somehow, to put up with that stuff. So they can't force them to throw away old stock and buy new one. Otherwise there may be the day when Intel needs to make the mobos. And that is not the most profitable business whiile also being a pain in the ass. On the bright side, it could force Intel to make boards last more generations, so they have to deal with that issue less.

[@BAJF93]

Maybe next time.

[@danieloberhofer9035]

Nah, I think Steve's on to something there. Their suppliers probably have millions of standard ILMs sitting on shelves and would be pissed a.f. if they could only sell those for outgoing LGA1700 boards. And as to advantages - practically all testing I've seen done on ARL was conducted on boards that use the RL-ILM, anyway. So whatever results you've seen, they could've only been worse, if that's even possible, with the standard ILM.

[@Legz_inStyle]

@@danieloberhofer9035 This is the correct answer. The last thing Intel needs is for their partners start push non Intel products more

[@Slizzo82]

Their sockets are getting so big that theyre not far off from their old HEDT socket sizes. The ILM on X99 and X299 were great, I always liked how they were double hinged and appeared to put more even pressure down across the entire CPU.

[@Crftbt]

12:45 the angle on the images looks so nice!

[@GamersNexus]

Thanks!

[@TheKazragore]

I used to be a tech enthusiast like you, but then I took an Arrow Lake to knee.

[@kopazwashere]

Intel* to knee >:)

[@magnomliman8114]

@@kopazwashere cringe.

[@konic40]

how old do you need to be

[@ericmollison2760]

arrow leg

[@isbestlizard]

I have always loved the way epyc processors slide in and tighten down

[@EXG21]

Plus the orange torque tool included and that fantastic click that tells you that it has the perfect tightness on the screw.

[@isbestlizard]

@@EXG21 Haha I never got any torque tool with my epycs but I did with my og threadripper 1950x and just used that for all of them :D

[@BeardedFrog]

For a company that puts out a new socket every year, they sure struggle with making them right.

[@celeriumlerium8266]

Whenever they make a new one, there are usually enough pins left unused from the last socket that it would easily make up the difference if they put some thought into it. Look at coffeetime with Coffee Lake, there is often not a legitimate reason to require a new socket, other than forced obsolesce.

[@kaoe145]

Mo sockets mo problems 😂

[@danieloberhofer9035]

​@@celeriumlerium8266Exactly. But that's what they've always done, and since they've demonstrated a complete inability to learn from their mistakes for about the last decade, I wouldn't expect them to learn now. Remember, the last time they actually demonstrated learning from mistakes was when they unceremoniously buried NetBurst because AMD was suddenly kicking their asses left, right and center. Core was a massive leap back then and ultimately cemented their leadership position for more than a decade. Alder Lake should have been like that, but it wasn't. Arrow Lake *needed* to be that, but it isn't, either. I'm not so certain they'll get a third chance after blowing two already.

[@Veritas.0]

Steve, you and your techs are a rare blessing for the consumer community. I'm not a fan of subscriptions, but you keep making awesome shirts and I'll keep buying them!

[@bibibutona]

I absolutely love the little things Steve does in his vids like the arrow bit. Never stop being awesome !

[@fteoOpty64]

He should be standing by a real lake in that shot with the arrow's shadow on the water....🤪

[@Tyler45832]

Only 3 more generations until intel comes out with contact frames while claiming it to be a new revolutionary part

[@danieloberhofer9035]

That would imply them being able to at least innovate by proxy. I'd doubt even that by now, considering they've thrown everything available at ARL and still came up short.

[@rhoharane]

lmao I can't get enough of those hexagon boxes "discreetly" placed in the shot. I hope this becomes a running gag for the next several months.

[@slateslavens]

Intel: "default" GN: "I do not think this word means what you think it means"... Hey Steve, could you add the outline of the CPU to the pressure graphs? It's difficult to tell on some of them (17:31 in particular) whether the perimeter of the IHS is seeing any contact at all.

[@Toksyuryel]

It's astonishing to me that Intel still struggles with this when AMD figured it out decades ago. I have never bent an AMD CPU.

[@GameBacardi]

“I use to be an adventurer like you, then I took an arrow to the knee” - Guard

[@vitormoreno1244]

I see what you did there, great reference to hardware unboxed video. Thanks Steve!

[@EricErnst]

Ok, the arrow in the knee got a chuckle from me. Thanks, Steve.

[@Alexanderkowaliuk-s7i]

Alexander valdemir kowaliuk here, I sincerely appreciate the scientific approach to tech that your doing I don't understand how it could be done in any other way yet your one of the few that are doing more than just reading the box spec's which I'm very able to accomplish on my own , so thank you again, I hope to see one episode on finding deals on used gaming laptops it's what I'm in the market for and with prices as high as they are regular people like myself literally can't buy a new system if I had to .

[@myname7021]

The quality of these investigations continue to surprise me, and they keep improving even further. Many thanks!

[@ZontarDow]

After 15 years I still chuckle at those knee jokes

[@KokoroKatsura]

A N I M E N I M E

[@Batman-bh6vw]

I refuse to believe it's been 13 years already.

[@nickploum9681]

Has it been 10 years already? Damn we are getting old

[@mrctuned2844]

Thank you, Steve. These videos you make are incredibly interesting and very well done. It's so cool that there are people willing to put this much time into a somewhat obscure, yet important, subject.

[@k41k00]

it became normal in the IT world that you have to buy a contact frame for 5$, it looked like nobody care about the intel lack of quality, thank you intel we'll now have cpu bend test !

[@phlogistanjones2722]

Thanks Steve! It is always nice to see your attention to detail Peaceful Skies+

[@xnitropunkx]

That opening joke was subtle and well done good stuff 🤣

[@jojobetzler3732]

BGA on Intel wouldn´t be a problem at all. If you buy an Intel CPU the next interesting generation is already on a new socket anyway.

[@zivzulander]

So that's where my arrow went, was looking for it. Thanks, Steve

[@adnanerochdi6982]

Thanks Steve! Glad you survived that arrow in the knee.

[@mallee5000]

Unrelated question: +2 years ago, you guys picked up a fan tester. Whatever happened to it? I don't recall seeing any content after you got it operational.

[@GamersNexus]

Working on it as of recently!

[@zblurth]

​@@GamersNexusoh nice we really need better fan testing to see why some brand ask for insane price for fans nowadays

[@quantum5661]

If/when its working, please test nonstandard thickness fans [15mm/30mm]

[@dalyxia]

Making it optional is probably so motherboard manufacturers can use existing stock of the S-ILM.

[@FluxMarsh333]

Glad to see Steve's retiring from Adventuring and becoming a Town Guard.

[@pushyasingh8652]

2:09 AYY PUT THAT BACK!!

[@PlantainSupernova]

Noctua's LBC G2, not to be confused with SD's LBC. 8:29 love it.

[@geekmystique]

Mostly this matters so much because of 100 watt+ TDP. Congrats Intel. In countries with a 30+ct/kwh energy price buying Intel is like burning money. I love the new efficiency testing here at GN; it really shows the divide between compute/watt values.

[@heyarno]

For me the power consumption is also a matter of how reasonable I can keep the system quiet. If I can simply do it with a 120mm tower cooler, that makes me happy and keeps my PC at a reasonable size. And I agree about the power prices. While efficiency under full load is important, I also care about idle consumption, because my pc spends most time with little to do. And Intel doesn't do well in that regard either. Even with systems like the N100 based ones.

[@danieloberhofer9035]

​@@heyarnoThat's exactly my reasoning for going 7800X3D. Slapped a Peerless Assassin on there (already overkill, honestly) and called it a day, noise-wise. And yes, AMDs idle power consumption may be a little higher out of the box than some Intel parts (not even all!), but with a little voltage tuning I did anyway while optimizing DRAM timings and UCLK/FCLK frquencies, that's down to single W differences, as well. Not all 7800X3D *have to* run 1.35V VSOC from EXPO settings, and that's where you can really get that idle power down, even at 6200 CL28.

[@OPTERON_PRIME]

"THANKS STEVE"

[@recoilman24]

Who else is watching Steve talk about the subpar "200 series" CPUs they are not going to be buying?

[@vxvicky]

Is it me or does everything get more absurd with each generation of CPUs is released?

[@ivanixdevon7526]

Mostly due to the fact that as cpu makers use smaller nanometer etches, there is less tolerances allowed. Kind of like building a house with paper walls, any heat, electrical or mechanical variances can punch a hole through the walls. Apple kind of avoids many of these issues by soldering the cpu and memory onto their own boards. Not saying I am a fan of that. but it gives them an advantage.

[@vxvicky]

@@ivanixdevon7526 I would say that with hardware it's happening as with software: that the priority is to make a quick fudge rather than a conscientious manufacture; all in the pursuit of launching new models every 6 months, lest the investor gets scared/pissed off. And this has led to a situation where everything is just a botched job on top of a botched job.

[@BHSilver]

I get GOOSEBUMPS everytime you say RL. Crazy!!

[@j3m638]

Sheesh just imagine how much more we'd all be getting screwed over without channels like this!

[@techluvin7691]

This is why I believe pins on the cpu were better overall. We never experienced these issues in years past.

[@TheGunnarRoxen]

Steve, I'm not buying any new computer components at the moment but I still watch GN as you are a shining star on the internet. Keep doing what you do 😁

[@NazNaxs]

Genuine question, why don’t motherboards have a full contact frame flip style ILM? Like it still flips open and has a latch but instead of 2 little pressure points it’s the whole area or at least the whole ihs tabs?

[@GamersNexus]

It isn't a solution that Intel has officially 'cleared' or rolled-out, so motherboard vendors stick with the options Intel and AMD typically vet and provide. If they had the freedom to deviate (they may, we're not sure), the answer is probably a much more boring one of simply cost.

[@erkinalp]

@@GamersNexus they don't have that freedom on desktop boards, at least if they continue the practice they did in previous generations they do have that freedom on experimental and HPC boards; but selling a research board to end customers has significant tax implications

[@NazNaxs]

I’d pay an extra .35 cents (manufacturer cost) on a 500$ + motherboard for a ILM that has more contact area.

[@NazNaxs]

@@GamersNexus sorry to tag you but I forgot the 2nd part of this yesterday. Can I add a foam adhesive pad to the standard ILM and then have a reduced load one? Seems like that’s all they did then that’d be easier and I wouldn’t have to hunt for a specific motherboard.

[@talos86]

CPU cooler manufacturers started to include full contact frames in their mounting hardware. My Arctic Liquid Freezer III 280 ARGB came with a contact frame for Intel LGA1700/1851.

[@jeremyschmit2025]

Great Work GN! Fascinating!

[@LautaroQ2812]

It's crazy that Steve can speak Chinese and is in Texas where I'd assume there would be some Latin community but can't read "Lotes" (that'd be something like loh-tess) hahaha Edit: Extra. "Lote" means "lot" as in "parking lot" not "lot" as in quantity. Lotes would be the plural. "Aurebesh & Klingon professional, defeated by simple Spanish", the headline read. Jokes aside, I doubt it's Spanish. Great video, these technical things are super interesting (when done by someone like you, so it's entertaining and we also learn). Must be a lot of work for the testing, the research and all.

[@ponhkunsambo]

i was drinking water when i saw Steve pulled an arrow out of his knee. XD

[@TechRIP]

Steve doing a video like this, knowing that no one will buy Error Lake, shows extreme dedication to his craft.

[@LanceThumping]

14:09, It might be good to do an adjusted false color image so that all the images fall on the same scale. That would help make it clear how much flatter one thing is than the other.

[@bluesmokegamer272]

15:38 that cold plate must be happy to see you :P

[@TomTschritter]

There's way too much pressure these days. We sure need Steve's sanity in the midst of all this madness

[@jake152]

That's cool you can see the text printed on it

[@madbradfreeman]

Very SUBTLE on the product placement. Love you guys!

[@Alexanderkowaliuk-s7i]

The cad animations are very helpful for me to understand what your talking about with complex ideas made easy to understand, thank you. Alexander valdemir kowaliuk.

[@donaldexley1852]

nice work as always, info we did not know we needed to know!

[@robmasters3569]

always love your content and humor, especiaeamlly cutting away from yourself and towards anyone else in the room, very funny. anyway, I heard Arrow Lake was a really good content CPU and being a content creator and not a gamer would it be a fair question to ask whether it would be a good choice for me in my next build?

[@ZomgZomg007]

2:06 why was that moved...what is it...its also personalized GN logo ;o

[@Stratos1988]

I can't tell if this is genuine question ?

[@NegativeROG]

Here's what I don't get: Steve, you and Vince recreated that scene from Ghost polishing that CPU ILM, so- what is the point of having a "flat" ILM if it bends during installation? I find it hard to believe a curved ILM and a curved cold-plate on a cooler offer better cooling under 100 pounds of pressure than a dead-flat, dead-smooth ILM would matching up to a dead-flat, dead-smooth cooler cold-plate under 5 pounds of force. Steve, could you "dummy mount" a tower cooler, under tension, to get it to bend (preload it), then mill it flat, do the same with a CPU, and test them in such a fashion? My bottom line- if TIM (paste) is meant to fill micro scratches, how the hell does it work with non-micro bends?

[@TheGinGear]

I imagine the issue with that is you would need a torque screwdriver to perfectly screw it in with the same tension each time; each time the CPU is removed and reinserted it could possibly have a different curve to it otherwise.

[@NegativeROG]

@@TheGinGear The point is that the two pieces should start flat, come together flat, and stay flat when torqued to spec. THAT makes sense.

[@-eMpTy-]

Splave actually cut up a mainboard down to the ILM part and mounted the CPU for lapping. You can also just use a contact frame to replace the ILM completely, this equalizes the pressure.

[@LeJohnnyBoy]

Thermal expansion 😮

[@vincentvega3093]

​How do you ensure perfect screw and counterpart threading? 😂 ​@@TheGinGear

[@CFI963]

New shirt looking good 👍

[@GamersNexus]

Thanks!

[@ebridgewater]

If you are TLDR: *Up to* (pressure test) 1.7C difference (58.9C, 61.5C) i.e. just get any motherboard you can afford as there is minimal difference in the ILM types.

[@IcecalGamer]

And if it's not RL-ILM polish the burs on the ILM wings. (removing before polishing ofc) Or/and add performance RL shims when reinstalling :D

[@watercannonscollaboration2281]

Watched until the end before commenting, first of all, the Blender renders look phenomenal. Second, as if the confusing naming scheme and taking an Arrow (Lake) in the knee wasn’t bad enough now there’s multiple different socket ILMs? Sacre bleu chateaupape du neuf, why Intel WHY???

[@stephaniephouotrides2435]

Being from Long Beach, I laughed at the LBC/Snoop Dogg reference 😅

[@ray_donovan_v4]

Neat. Thanks for the info, curious if theres any vibration issues from heatsinks with fans, and the socket mountings? Pressure distribution is one thing, but adding in, any vibration effects from the fans gyrating might be a factor also? Also, Orientation of the mobo in the case? (Whether the heatsink lays flat, or 90⁰ on the case sidewall..) One thing ive noticed over the years of working on pcs.. the motherboards, flexing when installing parts like ram sticks etc.. but some of the heatsinks look fairly weighty, how that effects longevity and tolerances on boards and designs..?

[@darius0lupus]

Congrats on getting married dude!!!

[@PolskiJaszczomb]

Asus coldplate isn't a bruteforce, it's simply an old design, that worked best with pre-Alder Lake CPUs, that were concave precisely in the center of the IHS.

[@pvdgucht]

26:43 wait so no comparison between the RL-ILM and the Contact frame in this video ? 😔 sad…. Hope you still make a video on that.

[@GamersNexus]

The contact frames for LGA 1700 don't natively fit. They are not compatible due to about a 1mm shift. We don't have any 1851 frames yet.

[@pvdgucht]

@ Ow I presumed that if I already got mine, that you certainly would have had yours already for a long time straight from Der8quer. I got mine in 2 days ago.

[@pvdgucht]

@@GamersNexus Got mine for LGA 1851 2 days ago actually. Would have thought that u would have already gotten it straight from Der8auer already.

[@maegnificant]

Would bet they filmed this video a while ago bro

[@pvdgucht]

@@maegnificant ow yeah makes sense. I just assumed he meant now because he just commented it. But yeah maybe he meant at the time he filmed it.

[@AugmentedGravity]

Man these things are becoming so damn complicated and intricate

[@gabest4]

Cooking pots are also slightly curved at the bottom, but they bend to flat when they warm up. Did they measure the surface flatness at operating temperature?

[@Siludin]

GN videos are really start to edge on the "I'm angry I am understanding all of this" territory

[@brofenix]

Hmmm interesting. I don't know if you guys talked about this in other videos or this video that I might have missed, but wouldn't pressing down the air cooler heat sink on the CPU's IHS bend one or the other if the fit isn't perfect, and therefore affect the concavity of either parts and affect future testing?

[@delgado290690]

Damn it, Steve, i was actually worried when i saw that limp.....then again, we all used to be Intel fanboys until we took an Arrowlake to the knee....and wallets

[@milescarter7803]

I would love to know if I can still use my $4 Jeyi contact frame. I've bought several now and it looks like a small amount of filing will make it compatible with the slightly different shape of 18xx processor IHS. I use contact frame on every build, even 35w T builds. It's so cheap and the processor will not be bending.

[@SL1PSTAR]

Gamers Nexus, bringing you the ultimate chiropractor review for CPUs!

[@komm13]

the arrow brought back some fusrodah memories

[@unvergebeneid]

I was six minutes into this video before I realised I have absolutely no intention of buying an Intel CPU in the foreseeable future.

[@neuplop]

21:03 I thought would be more interesting to compare with third party ones, like grizzly's or the aliexpress 3$ one, since they performed so much better on the old socket. But i guess they aren't out yet?

[@theodanielwollff]

Missed der8uer coverage of this by a week. TLDW is you still need a frame for memory overclocking and it also drops temps 4-7c.

[@alendolsak3519]

Steve used to be an enthusiastic consumer, but then he took an arrow to the knee. Now he is an enthusiastic gaurd of everday consumers.

[@henrythegreatamerican8136]

Never saw the abbreviation ILM. At first I thought it was short for "I Like Midriffs"

[@ThatTechGuy123]

7:57 if anyone can bring feeling to tech it's you tech Jesus 😊

[@viper6399]

Good video but a slight miss, not adding a bracket to these tests along with the ILMs❤

[@hbdude155]

Steve always takes one for the team. Even arrows

[@commonraccoon2105]

This seems like a Hotfix done for the issues with 14th Gen CPU's dying and them still speculating why it was getting cooked, so they assumed the waver/CPU could have bend issues and thus die, so they designed the next gen with in mind of it only to find out later it was not this issue, but the Firmware/Temperature issue...

[@MadManTnT]

Curious to see how would the cpu behave with out the ilm. Just use the cooler pressure to hold it down.

[@tmontana213]

The LBC Snoop Dogg reference made my day.

[@celeriumlerium8266]

I believe "Low-ts" (Lotes) is correct however they are often called LT for short.

[@darjanator]

When it comes to swapping out the different ILM's, wouldn't it make more sense (and also be a lot easier) to swap out one half of it at a time, thus preventing the backplate from falling away or losing alignment with the motherboard holes? Or are the backplates between the two solutions also different?

[@Shawn-qx1ln]

I'd like to know how much the plastic base and motherboard itself plays a part in the pressure across the surface. If the motherboard and plastic base of the socket was stiffer, would the pressure change?

[@maitreaco]

20:20 I was close to have a heart attack

[@mz1929]

GamersNexus: "I promise to put the meme in the laser and mechanical testing of the Intel ILMs video." Me: feels betrayed and forsaken 😥 you promised... (that was your top comment on the review video and you still forgot...)

[@amixofgeekcontent]

Y'all are awesome for testing and showing us this! Ps have u considered talking about Nvme issues? I was gonna buy one but found out about issues, and not just for the Samsung 990 Pro. (Eg phison e18 controllers had a problem).

[@robertstandley2576]

grate video mate. I wonder if there will be a frame that will come out like the 1700 Motherboard

[@arvopenaali896]

Finally a reason to get excited over a Intel product. Thanks for these deeeeeep dives

[@dudeonlygamingandotherstuf7791]

Next architecture will be called knee lake.

[@ThylineTheGay]

i once tested computer hardware.. till i took an arrow to the knee...