Investigating Intel's CPU Socket Problems | Thermal Grizzly Contact Frame Benchmark

[@GamersNexus]

Wow! Lots of interest from comments to see more of these. We're working on getting the cheaper Thermalright contact frame and some others from Amazon. Exciting to have a new review category! We'll work on a round-up. Tell us about other frames you've found! You'd also like our investigation into GPU power consumption issues: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rZ-1qqx5qNp7fLM The best way to support our work is through our store: store.gamersnexus.net/ -- we currently have toolkits, modmats, mouse mats, and shirts in stock! The PC building modmats are VERY LOW stock, so if you want one, buy it soon! store.gamersnexus.net/products/modmat-volt-large And our CPU cooler reviews playlist: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bYfdiXuLidZ4bac

[@skilletpan5674]

It'd be cool do to a retrospective of all the socket mounting types from socket 3/7 to now :D

[@milestailprower]

I'd love to see a comparison on a couple of things: 1. As a worst case scenario for manufacturing tolerances and material, I'd love to see the results with a 3d printed bracket like Luumi has tested. 2. I'd like to see how this would compare to the "washer mod" and the general advice you'd give to people who may be pursuing it

[@Asquadron1]

can u make a video about whats going on about z690 socket usb problems, on reddit have tread about this and ppl dont know what happening. i almost buy z690 but found that tread and dont know what to do, mb better buy 12700f and b660?

[@ShuckleII]

mdonaberger is such a funny username

[@stopUkrainewar666]

Intel : Ty for tips for free ... it was worth a millions

[@thomasgiles2876]

So nice of Thermal Grizzly to do all the engineering Intel forgot to do.

[@GamersNexus]

ooooooooooof

[@Mondfischli]

...all this talk about brackets, clamps and paste as equalizer - are we sure it's not someone's dentures? 😆

[@thomasgiles2876]

​@@EpicGamingEct Thermal Grizzly at least made sure their product worked *Before they sold it

[@kitecattestecke2303]

@@EpicGamingEct ? What Intel does not send free stuft ever.. Which mail? Providence a link !!!

[@abdulhkeem.alhadhrami]

True

[@jimmyjimjim1744]

This is probably one of the biggest reasons why i keep coming back to gn. At this point, im a little burned out on the flashier parts of pc's like cpu's and gpu's. But the gn team shining light on some of the less flashy and more in-depth/niche parts like case fans, cpu sockets, cases, psu's and the like never fails to fascinate me. Keep up the good work!

[@GamersNexus]

Thanks so much! It keeps it really interesting for us too, and it's a great reminder of how cool PC DIY is when we get away from the usual path!

[@bigusdickus1870]

Totally agree. I've been burned out by the regular stuff but this was so interesting!

[@artisan002]

For people with just one computer they're relying on, or mission critical systems, this kind of product analysis is essential and I am personally grateful GN are covering it.

[@philtkaswahl2124]

I agree with the general point, but I'm not sure case fans and cases fall into less flashy these days. Especially the cases. Often they're pretty hyped up too, and the especially flashy cases may even cost almost as much as the CPU you're popping into the build.

[@kenney0313]

Exactly! GN does everything others do, BUT they go deep into things that others don't ever mention; sometimes to foreign language depths!😂😂😂 When I don't know the words or acronyms, they're going deep.😂

[@tulsatrash]

I love how you took the time to cover the strengths and weaknesses of the installation method for the thermal grizzly frame, showing alternative mass produced ILMs, letting us know that alternatives to the thermal grizzly holder exist and how much they cost.

[@tradcatpat2385]

I really appreciated Mike's installation walk-through, thank you guys. I work in China and the Thermal Grizzly contact frame isn't available here yet, so I got the Thermalright one for the equivalent of $6. Comes with a torque wrench as well, bonus. The quality is very good but it could use those witness marks the TG has. Installing it on my Aorus Z690 Master reminded me of the original Athlons. Back then they didn't have an IHS so users would use a contact frame to keep from chipping the actual chip. After installing the Thermalright my idle temps were only reduced by a degree or so, but my load temps dropped 7 degrees during Prime95 using a Corsair H150i Elite LCD. Definitely worth the small cost in time and money.

[@Layarion]

should we really be trusting a 6$ bundle torque wrench? would love if steve answered that for us.

[@DRGeralt]

@@Layarion It's not a torque wrench. It's an allen key. No idea what he's on about.

[@animalyze7120]

You don't need the witness marks if you are using a torque wrench. The witness marks are for those using a standard driver or Allen wrench.

[@OD_Plays]

@@animalyze7120 I slapped that thing on there turned the screwdriver and now its been a year, cpu still kicking guess i got lucky

[@jerome620]

1 year later - I've installed several contact frames now, and following these installation instructions I've had zero problems with posting, memory, or temperatures. Great job guys.

[@JB-ue6lf]

Have you seen cooler temps?

[@KentRoads]

@@JB-ue6lf i did mine yesterday, dropped 20c

[@James-fv1cm]

Am I correct here in following mikes advice on installation: Reverse the screw until you feel the screw fall into correct place. Once you feel the screw fall into place, rotate screw 90 degrees. After rotating the screws diagonally 90 degrees, continue to add another 45 degree of rotation to all 4 screws (at this point you should feel small resistance). After this point rotate a further 90 degrees diagonally to all 4 screws and that’s it??

[@KentRoads]

@@James-fv1cm yes the first reverse to get the thread straight and not cross-threaded is good, but on my recent one i just screwed them in until near snug then lightly tightened them in x pattern

[@James-fv1cm]

@@KentRoads thank you. So for you personally did you not worry about the exact measurements of rotation??

[@intelinside5574]

Looks like it needs some of the 2011 style ILMs with the double retention arms!

[@KR4FTW3RK]

I have a pair of 2011 v0 systems and that retention system is really nice... altho somewhat disconcerting when using it for the first time sine it takes SO much force. I run Xeon E5 2697s and they stay amazingly cold for 150 watt CPUs

[@samiraperi467]

My thought exactly.

[@slartibartfast2649]

@KR4FT W3RK I am still rocking a 2690 V2 @ 4.0GHz at stock voltage. Temps never get over 70 with a NH-U12A. What a beast.

[@censored-admin]

Yup, I have the dual socket version of the HP Z640 (2016 workstation) that uses this dual lever type retension on both CPUs (mobo & add-on riser). Recently upgraded old E5-2620v3 2.4GHz 80W CPUs to E5-2637v4 3.5GHz 135W and temps dropped (Noctua NT-H2 paste used) to average 39-50 degrees. My bottleneck now is my GTX 960. Been waiting so long, what's a few more months LOL. Best thing is this processor series is 1 gen prior to Win11 compatibility (even though I could update TPM) so no auto upgrade LOL.

[@spankeyfish]

Exactly what I thought. the 2011/2066 ILMs are a proven design as well.

[@iffy_too4289]

Mike's installation segment was great. Such easy to follow instructions - true fitment for dummies stuff. Nice concise and well explained job!

[@shaneeslick]

Yeah, Mike is doing an Awesome job in front of the camera with his explanations

[@catbertz]

+1 on the Mike props. He's another great team member. Steve is building a heck of a team!

[@BrianPardee]

Oh wow! I know you mentioned only microns but putting that squaring block on it really visually shows the gap!😮It's huge!😮😮

[@TheKillerman3333]

Gamer's nexus and LTT fighting it out to see who can report the most accurate information about computers by buffing their own testing systems, down to the micron. This kind of accurate reporting, which removes as much bias as possible, is the kind of respectable reporting that i love to see.

[@Layarion]

unfortunately it's also harder to get because as you said, money for said equipment.

[@MikoOhneHose]

@@Layarion harder to get what?

[@Layarion]

@@MikoOhneHose equipment that lets you give accurate information.

[@hiiipowerbass2337]

I'm sooooo fkn here for it

[@TheKillerman3333]

@@Layarion with the views and shops that the two companies are running, it means they have the money for it.

[@JC-bf6fy]

I know its not the purpose of the video, but This video helped me resolve a memory issue I was having where the machine would not post with any speeds higher than 3000mhz. The play in the standard mounting hold down bracket was causing an issue where I had poor contact and the system wouldn't post. Thanks for the documentation!!!

[@MrMeanh]

I'm really impressed by the quality of the last few videos, GN has taken a big leap forward in animations and content. Not that is was bad before, it's just much better now.

[@CasualGamers]

Great product! Proper CPU pressure is very important, and even if the mechanism looks simple, A LOT of effort goes into making such a product. Anyone who has used early interposed BGA->LGA 1151 CPUs, should be able to tell how much of a headache it was to get proper pressure on some-- I'm not even talking thermals, but memory channels or even booting everything up. Many relied on the Intel cooler to do the job properly, but obviously that's not what was done here, which makes it even cooler. Nice job guys!

[@Kalvinjj]

The cooler itself also told the tale of how well it was attached after it was too late as well (as in, you removed it and saw how well the paste spread out). Sometimes it would be perfect, sometimes it would be all on one corner and you can kinda guess that thermals were trash.

[@rodrigoeduardo9199]

caramba,olha quem esta aqui

[@deusexaethera]

I got a Core i7 for my girlfriend's computer that ran hot. When I pulled the heatsink off again, I could see visible spots where the heatsink goop had never touched the die cover. I wet-sanded the die cover (glass tables are great for this, because they're almost perfectly flat) until I got through the nickel plating down to the bare copper, polished it mirror-smooth, and reinstalled it. The CPU ran 15­­°C cooler. (on a side note, the code for the Degree symbol is ALT+0176.)

[@cemsengul16]

Why do huge corporations come up with these foolish mistakes?

[@shurin3126]

@@cemsengul16 Money.

[@tsdobbi]

heatsink goop lmao.

[@saipa7256]

So pleased you mentioned backing the screws out. This is something I aways do. It's very good practice to do this with plastic and wood so you don't cut new threads everytime you screw it together.

[@LenniZ1337]

I was an early adapter of the LGA775 platform that I believe introduced this mechanism back in 2005. It got known pretty early that the spring load was causing that bend and I opted to remove it and only hold the CPU down with the waterblock. Worked great and helped a bunch on my temperatures. I honestly thought they solved this issue years ago.

[@WayStedYou]

I think they did with the 1100/1150 era ones, they just reintroduced it after swapping to a rectangle cpu instead of square.

[@LenniZ1337]

@@WayStedYou that makes sense. I don't think my current 2011-3 socket has the problem either, so it's quite surprising by Intel to repeat an almost 20 year old design flaw.

[@dgafkucky]

@@LenniZ1337 That is what happens when bean counters get involved

[@rat_world]

Thanks Steve

[@shamrock4926]

I'm curious how AMD will approach this problem for their next gen CPUs.

[@GamersNexus]

Same! Can't wait to test AM5.

[@riba2233]

They have extra holes and it will be much better, it is already a known fact

[@WayStedYou]

Well considering AM5 is the same size as AM4, probably the same way they do now.

[@sentryion3106]

@@WayStedYou but am5 is lga so they’ll probably have to rework in the end

[@riba2233]

@@WayStedYou nope, it is a completely new system

[@rickeutsler3814]

My experience with the Thermal Grizzly Contact Frame... I was an early adaptor of the 12900K and have tried 240, 360, and multiple air cooling solutions to only ever come up short. Immediately upon launching Cinebench R23, the CPU package temp would spike to 100c and thermal throttle for the length of the test. The only solution was to turn down the max core clocks and limit the power draw. As a final attempt to tame the beast, I ordered the IceGiant cooler. In my communications with them, they said they had a new mount for the 1700 socket, so I patiently waited. It arrived in about a week for no charge. I started an email thread with their techs about my situation; they were EXTREMELY helpful. I'm not new to PCs, having built my first PC about 30 years ago, but I've never been an overclocker or someone that goes in and mucks with the BIOS. I expect things to just work. (as a note, I also have an AMD 5950x system that has always "just worked." Intel should take notes..) Anyway, the IceGiant folks were super helpful and recommended the TG contact frame, which they were gracious to sell and ship to me for less than I could get on eBay. I installed it last night (super easy, by the way.. if you are apprehensive about the installation, it's easy.. take a breath, take your time, and you'll be set). The beast is now tamed. I can run cinebench r23 with the power limits removed, and the CPU temps start at about 80c and by the end of the test are in the mid-90s, with maybe one or two instances of momentary thermal throttling. I'm running a cheap 360 aio as I wanted to see how the contact frame improved my current setup. I'll be installing the IceGiant cooler next. Power draw during the test is hitting about 241 sustained. Not only can I run the test, but I'm able to run all core at 5.1 and maintain good temps. My motherboard is the gigabyte aorus pro z690. The techs at IceGiant hit the nail on the head with their assessment that the stock ILM was causing my thermal throttling issues. I'm super happy now that my 12900K can run like it was meant to. So thank you to TG for creating a high-quality fix and thank you to IceGiant for all their help. And, Thank You Steve for putting in the time to show us the TG Frame and the generic option as well. If you have a 12th gen, do yourself a favor and just get a contact frame. Your CPU will thank you. Cheers Rick

[@pixels_per_inch]

Did they fix it with the 700 series motherboard? They seem pretty quick in discontinuing the older 600 series board and the ILM was pretty strong (way stronger than LGA1151). I have a B760 + 13700K with Thermalright PA120SE and in cinebench R23, I max out around 5.2 GHz with temps of around 85°C.

[@ChrisDaytrader]

@@pixels_per_inch Are your temps without the contact frame in this video ? cheers

[@TheusmaNorata]

You certainly failed in summaries and essays...

[@Peterscraps]

YES! I'm glad someone finally addressed this, this is how my last cpu socket broke. I was cleaning out my computer and ended up having to get a new mobo+cpu

[@reubenmorris487]

I had an old Z68 board go bad after 6 months because of something like this. Everything worked fine and then I packed up the computer in it's original packaging to move. After I had time to set it up again, I lost a RAM channel. ASrock refused to help me...

[@joh1461]

This is really cool and deeply informative information, I admit I've never really thought about these sorts of things and it was really shocking to see the level of difference between the Thermal Grizzly frame and Intel's. Your content is really unique and I learn a lot from it, so thank you!

[@stefanmisch5272]

It's so interesting to see how much influence this ILM has even though the cooler already puts so much pressure on the CPU.

[@makoto5071]

Many users in Japan have also reported the 12 Gen Intel CPU's bending in the middle because of the 2 contacts in the middle. Many Japanese Tech KZbinrs have been reporting this. You can search KZbin using the phrase "インテル12世代cpu 曲がる"

[@mmmddd7161]

the middle bending issue was aready known and expected

[@Holesale00]

thats crazy thank for the tip!

[@a-job7276]

The thumbnails of some videos are already memes, omg.

[@scraps7624]

4:26 love the animation, the attention to detail of this channel is second to none Amazing work once again

[@Stuen4y]

The quality of the journalism of the last couple of videos and this one is just absolutely outstanding. Loved the 3d animations, there isn't a better way to demonstrate how things work than a good 3d model. Keep up the good work!

[@mightylink65]

CPU contact is important, especially in LGA. Surprisenly they can sometimes still boot without some of the pins but you lose functionality like some of the RAM slots and this can lead people to believe it's a motherboard issue and they end up replacing it for no reason.

[@tinitis4144]

I had exactly this problem with a previous Intel-based computer. The memory was behaving very erratically, and it turned out to be an over-tightened cooler. It would boot and function normally for a while, but eventually there would be a random blue screen. It was maddening to troubleshoot.

[@dfgdfg_]

Any evidence for booting without pins?

[@Qwarzz]

@@dfgdfg_ If you're lucky the missing pins can be either not in use or ground pins. Apart from that you can still have partial fucntionality like missing memory lanes like mentioned in the video.

[@caison8482]

I have my first two RAM slots nonfunctioning with an i5-12600k, asus-proart b660 mobo. With your comment in mind, if nothing changes after retightening or checking for pins, would it be better to send just the CPU back?

[@Qwarzz]

@@caison8482 It would be best if you could test with another CPU to make sure it's the issue but I guess people don't usually have extra CPUs just lying around, this was one of the perks in my previous job. Of course testing the CPU on another motherboard would also work but isn't any more likely to available. CPUs are rarely defective, altho that can happen too of course. I have a CPU that won't let me use anything faster than NVidia GT430 (maybe issue with some PCIe lanes). Fortunately I don't actually need a GPU on that machine.

[@VincentGroenewold]

As an engineer, I simply like to know that what I'm building is tight and as intended. So even if it isn't for extreme OC, I can see the value in this thing for people like me. I want something to do its job, if the Intel pressure thing basically fails there, I want something that doesn't. 35 Dollars is then a bit expensive for sure though.

[@b-rant]

We definitely need a lot more data on failures before we can really conclude anything other than a temp benefit. We can certainly speculate about lower failure rate, and there is definitely a place for the TG ILM in the market, but I wouldn't expect much change from intel without someone doing large scale testing and finding provable failure rate increase with the stock ILM vs the TG ILM while also testing the competing(AMD) ILM's for failure rate. The 7c is certainly nice, but is this video enough to make intel engineers go "Shit better improve it because someone showed a 7c benefit with a $35 part". I'm not completely convinced. Bring up this conversation at an investors meeting and unless the new system provides that same 7c at say less than a 30% cost increase(per ILM), i doubt they will go for it, especially with an impending global recession.

[@slartibartfast2649]

@Brantyn a double lever ilm like Intel has used for a decade with their bigger sockets (like 2011, 2011-3, 2066) should be implemented, especially on high end mobos. I think it would make a compelling feature. Also making the socket more compact would help. Meteor lake (14th gen) will come with over 2000 pins so seeing what Intel uses will be interesting.

[@prydzen]

sorry to inform you will have to buy a new IHS and bracket or lap your existing IHS. The IHS products are atrocious. Every CPU I had made terrible contact. IF you want really fancy you will mirror finnish your cooler and IHS. wont need thermal paste.

[@DRGeralt]

@@prydzen You're high on cannabis my friend. So long as you believe there's any circumstance where you don't need thermal paste...

[@connor040606]

Anything that can increase OC potential, even for a basic level overclocker like me, is great news! 35 bucks and probably another 100mhz on my cpu with lower temps is a no brainer.

[@awilson2385]

The how-to segment was extremely well done. The explanations for "why" each step actually made the execution clearer, a very rare occurrence. Too many youtubers go off on a tangent halfway through instructions. That was well laid out, thought out, and presented. If you screw it up after watching this video your shoes probably have Velcro instead of laces, through necessity. 5 of 5, highly recommended.

[@EposVox]

Holy balls. Love the data and new testing tools, though!

[@nickfosley2882]

The Stream Professor!

[@TennSeven]

Steve, thank you and the rest of the team for doing what you do. If it weren't for you guys digging down and scientifically testing this stuff we the consumers wouldn't have any means to be aware of issues like this.

[@abdelnajjar8191]

The best computer hardware channel on KZbin. Methodology in testing is sooo important and not to knock down other channels but you guys understand that the most. And not only that, but you guys go a step further and test stuff that noone else even realizes is a thing. Keep leading.

[@MikkoRantalainen]

Great testing and I appreciate that you did extra testing with Intel ILM around 11:00!

[@Maximum_Nova]

installing a contact frame now for a 13th gen cpu, I appreciate the installation instructions here - since I don't have a precision torque screwdriver laying around

[@Cherijo78]

LOVING this type of content. This and the last GPU power video really hit it out of the park for me. This is the sort of thing that gets forgotten in the mundane building of computers, but it's the kind of details that we need to be paying attention to and that are actually important that could make or break a build. They become even more important if we are building machines for others, so that we can reduce the friends and family tech support tax LOL.

[@rickysargulesh1053]

I am impressed how you keep improving production quality. Mike is also a great addition to the team. Overall great video and the product itself is worth a look to improve temps.

[@Enakaji]

That thing kinda reminds me of the old Athlon XP DIE protector shims from the Socket A days. For those that don't know, back then AMD Cpus didn't have a heatspreader, so the CPU DIE Silicon was directly exposed and could easily be damaged or destroyed if you weren't careful when mounting your cooler. So there was a quite substantial addon market that sold stuff like Copper DIE protectors/spacers that helped with this issue.

[@slimal1]

Wasn't this normal decades ago? On both sides?

[@RobertHancock1]

@@slimal1 There were a few Intel CPUs that had exposed dies, like some Socket 370 chips, but they pretty quickly moved to using an IHS. AMD kept using exposed dies for much longer. Years before that, before they moved to "flip chip" packaging, the actual CPU die faced down towards the socket, not up towards the cooler.

[@slimal1]

@@RobertHancock1 interesting. Thanks for sharing that

[@ic_trab]

Not only that, but the stock cooler had that leaf sprung mechanism that you levered over the edge with a flat bladed screwdriver. Very disconcerting.

[@slimal1]

@@ic_trab I remember that! I think mine was a Coppermine Celeron, Socket 370. Overclocked to 850MHz

[@MegaEmmanuel09]

Amazing coverage, illustrations, animations, and quality. Props to the entire GN Crew 👏

[@archer9338]

Mike did a really good job with that walk through. His attention to detail and intelligent approach is fantastic. Thanks guys!

[@Isamu27298]

Fantastic video guys. The quality of your content just keeps getting better and better! Thank you for not shying away from the more technical stuff!

[@dnakatomiuk]

The fact you now have to buy a 3rd party socket to fix thermal issues that clearly Intel most likely knew about but couldn't be bothered to fix before release. Let's see if AMD don't have anything like this with AM5 as I assume it would use a simular mechanism. Great video GN really good investigation

[@p3chv0gel22]

I might be wrong, but given that AM5 may be a smaller socket in the first place and those weird IHS edges, we saw on press releases, they may have less issues with uneven pressure to begin with

[@TotallySlapdash]

I wonder if this is intel settings themselves up for a 4770 > 4790 situation, where they make something intensionally mediocre so they can show a massive improvement next generation (much like apple with the last few intel macs)

[@whencuriositystrikes880]

According to IgorsLab who made a video (in German) about the AM5 socket, it's going to have a better solution that shouldn't mirror any of these concerns.

[@SirEpsilonn]

If you run into thermal issues , there's 5 other factors that are causing the problems before the socket. Sure , i'd like to see a better socket too , but the average user who is buying 12600/12700K's and runs in to thermal issues - should take another look at their cooler or PC case long before they need to worry about the socket. It's annoying for people like me who are into min-maxing temps though , this video made me consider spending the $35 on the thermalgrizzly socket while my temps are completely fine. And if i was really in to overclocking it'd be an even bigger annoyance.

[@fluphybunny930]

Bought a 12600k at launch. Just had a look yesterday and fitted a Thermalright “fix” out of curiosity. Couple of things worth mentioning. Firstly the cpu itself shows zero signs of been bent. Checked on flat surface and against a level. Secondly, the before and after temperatures are identical. No difference what-so-ever. This is not a universal problem. If you have the 12th gen system and it works fine, you do NOT need to buy third party mounts.

[@kamikaze00007]

If I were a design engineer for these, I would make a socket where the mounting is pretty much like the contact frame, but instead of screws, the four holes would be replaced by a kind of fixed metal nut of sorts, one end closed, and the surface open. The inside of the nut would not be threaded, instead smooth, but with a pair of L-shaped canals carved inside on opposing surfaces (like one on the inside left and one on the inside right). The contact frame would then be fixed onto the nut by non-threaded bolts that have a special "tooth" protruding on both sides made to pass into the L-shaped canals. The mounting process is simple: 1. Insert the CPU onto the socket. 2. Place the contact frame over the CPU. 3. Insert the non-threaded bolts into the holes and into the respective nut. They will only go in while the "tooth" on both sides match the canals so there's no making a mistake there. 4. While keeping the contact frame in place with one hand, push in each non-threaded bolts and turn them until the "tooth" on both sides of the bolt locks into place of the L-shaped canals, in an alternate manner similar to when mounting a CPU cooler. Since the bolts can only reach the bottom of the L-shaped canals via the special "tooth" being in the right position, there is no danger of too much torque or too little torque. As long as the board manufacturers build the sockets properly, the nut should keep everything even, and all in the same equal or leveled position.

[@gabrielgabriel9779]

I'm glad you aren't the engineer of these

[@danielhebard1865]

Good luck machining bolts with tight enough tolerances that even with a single canal/thread, every piece is 100% identical and provides consistent mounting pressure.

[@Gamevet]

I paid $45 for this contact frame last weekend. The installation was easy and everything appears to be working rock solid. My 12900K appears to be working flawlessly.

[@Jmcgee1125]

Based on the threadripper mount, I doubt AM5 will have issues (read: "AMD is aware of the possibility and will take steps to avoid it"). But it could, so I'll be interested to see how that pans out.

[@everyonethinksyoureadeathm5773]

If they use the TR casset system it's probably worth that small premium just so everything works right. Sure hitting those cheap boards is nice but if you're building a system on a shoe string budget, maybe it's best to wait so you can get a better board.

[@elksalmon84]

LGA 1718 (Socket AM5) mechanism looks exactly same as LGA 1700 (Socket V). It's mainstream, so cannot be expensive.

[@DrowningInTea]

Check out the Thermalright AM5 secure frame!

[@AnticipatedHedgehog]

Intel must be loving this free research and development/product testing. Great work on this one, pretty neat that each cpu has its own finger print so to speak.

[@kapnk066]

Intel did all the research, knew all this and determined that the customer dis-satisfaction rate would not be high enough to warrant a better performing, more costly system.

[@hextobyte]

a return to the lga 2011 mounting mechanism would be cool

[@samc4283]

Thermal Grizzly: “fine, I’ll do it myself” lol

[@themusician23]

So cool! Very thorough explanation and general information on this. I would've never thought about how uneven pressure can cause thermal distribution issues. Thank you for putting this video together. Huge value here!

[@Kellen6795]

Hey Steve I'd love to see you go back in time and do these pressure tests on the very very old lga and pga sockets showing how things have changed over time

[@scalz420]

this video just demonstrated that its gotten worse over time

[@harrylane4]

@@scalz420 we can’t say that without knowing how things were before

[@Jamasen]

I think the dual lever design of the X99 was very good, I was surprised not to see it on the 1700 socket, considering it's size.

[@Mom19]

Especially given the fact that their pin count is not that far off. Intel could've just made it a similar socket and it would've been a much better design. I wonder how CPUs or motherboards will look like after like 6 years or so with a cooler not originally intended for 1700 (smaller contact area), but adapted to it. Those pins develop quite a good amount of force if you think about it tho..

[@alpha.wintermute]

Cool you guys taught me something new. I’m not a stats person and didn’t know you can average averages in certain cases. You guys are incredible, introducing honest and meaningful data into reviews in a professional way. Excellent content as usual

[@Zarkil]

I've never considered myself an enthusiast, I never try to see how far I can push any part of my pc. I take a lot of time testing, daily driving, and monitoring before I start to make adjustments. I'll take a 5% performance boost that's completely stable over a 25% boost thats 85% stable every time, I also would never allow anyone else to build or repairing my pc. Your thorough and in depth coverage is extremely helpful to me and also entertaining. I truly want to thank you and your team for the amazing content!

[@BeardedFrog]

Are motherboard manufacturers required to use Intel's design entirely? If not, it would be interesting to see something like this implemented on the more enthusiast type boards. Or better yet a proper latching mechanism that existed on other platforms for improving the contact while maintaining ease of installation. I would think including that on the overclocking enthusiast targeted boards by Asus/MSI/Gigabyte would be a good idea/selling point. Just not sure if Intel would allow them to do something like that, especially since they have to take into account voiding warranties and such.

[@keithd.2722]

They'd be _allowed_ to do whatever they want, but this would most likely prevent them from being able to put the Intel label on their packaging or claim to officially support Intel processors because it isn't tested and approved by Intel's engineers. So Intel isn't forcing motherboard manufacturers to do anything, but the market would do that because not "officially" supporting Intel chips on a motherboard designed for Intel chips is going to scare consumers away from buying the product since there would be no guarantee everything would work as expected. The motherboard manufacturers would have to compensate for that by doing their own certification and staking their own brand reputation on the reliability and footing the bill for any warranty-related issues. That's because Intel's warranty would be void by not going with what they've certified as compatible with their product, so either consumers would have to settle for risking burning up a $600+ CPU for a couple degrees cooler operation, or would have to pay the motherboard manufacturer for footing the bill to backstop the CPU warranty that Intel would no longer provide on their own dime. These added expenses will keep motherboard manufacturers from doing this, and even if they did, would keep a good percentage of consumers from ever buying those more expensive products in the first place. And Intel won't do it because the demand for that additional manufacturing cost just isn't there. The only place they're going to spend that kind of money making this sort of improvement is on enterprise-grade hardware where the price point is substantially higher, and that's why they already do it in that market segment. The best solution for both Intel and motherboard manufacturers, as well as for consumers, is to do it just like this. Anything else would necessarily cost more both to the companies doing it, as well as the consumers using it. The lower cost of manufacturing it at scale would be more than offset by the additional cost to the motherboard manufacturer and the end consumer footing the bill for filling in those missing warranties.

[@Maroco918]

@@keithd.2722 That's why they would just send it in the box with the motherboard for the consumer to install once they receive their board. Easy work around

[@BobMotster]

Always disliked those spring-loaded mechanisms and wondered why we don't secure the CPU in the same way as its cooler. So glad someone with enough power in the industry stepped forward with an obviously more practical solution. Here's hoping it becomes the standard.

[@ArchusKanzaki]

Well, GN already elaborated it. The installation method is so damn finicky you probably will send everyone to "just get a pre-built". I mean, "screw it tight, but not too tight, and slowly but not too slow...." If you screw Noctua's too tight, its ok, but screwing CPU too tight can cut your memory by half or worse. I built my own PC, but I will not dare to do it if I'm told to do the ThermalGrizzly way

[@EwanMarshall]

As pointed out, on the older HEDT, workstation and server platforms with the double levers, it is not an issue, neither is it on smaller CPUs with the one lever. Intel have just hit that area where the CPUs in the desktop platform are almost as large as the HEDT platform at that is why it becomes an issue. Having it automatically apply the right tension for the pins underneath is real important for LGA sockets and doing that without a precision torque driver is hard.

[@BobMotster]

@@ArchusKanzaki It's a risk anyway - either the risk of overtightening or the risk of the chip degrading unevenly. I choose to rely on myself, whether it be to position the cooler nigh perfectly or to screw things up ;)

[@CanIHasThisName]

Intel's solution is very good from the end user's perspective, because it leaves little room for screw ups. There's no risk of the mechanism falling on the pins and there is no way to get the torque wrong. They turned a task that could require a lot of attention and a specialized tool into a trivial and straightforward step. When you overtighten a heatsink, it's only going against its own bracket. You're not adding pressure on the socket because the height is set by the bracket. Imagine if you had to manually set the correct height on a heatsink. That's kinda what this is. The method for tightening showed in this video is very finicky and when done by millions of people, there would be a lot of those who get it wrong. Even if you provide the correct torque value, most people who own a torque wrench or screwdriver never actually had it calibrated and while it can be good enough for bicycle parts, you need to be very precise with a CPU. Incorrect pressure can lead to all kinds of problems, some of which actually aren't immediately obvious. Imagine if part of troubleshooting every obscure problem was removing the heatsink and checking the torque of your CPU socket. They could provide a purpose built torque bit holder, but those are relatively expensive and would substantially increase the cost of the product.

[@EwanMarshall]

@@CanIHasThisName How many torque drivers can be even set that low? 0.3-0.6NM requires precision ones at best I would think.

[@wtfeatapples]

I'm surprised you wouldn't be interested in doing a comparison of the more budget friendly and actually available frames. I know 2 dozen people that use the Thermalright frame, still haven't seen anyone have the thermal griz yet.

[@insu_na]

I'm guessing because thermal grizzly has the international patent for this retention mechanism, and the thermalright clones are unlicensed clones

[@GamersNexus]

We never said we "wouldn't be interested" in doing that. We just haven't done it yet. That doesn't mean we aren't interested.

[@felautumn9534]

Correlation doesn't equal causation

[@concinnus]

@@insu_na Are you sure they even have a patent? Nothing about this strikes me as non-obvious. At any rate, Thermalright was first to market. There are allegations that they misappropriated a Chinese designer's work, but nothing about TG.

[@insu_na]

@@concinnus Roman at least claimed that they had a patent. Didn't actually look for a filing.

[@HardWhereHero]

I didn't do mine like this. I got the thermal rite frame from AliExpress. It's the same thing. I tightened mine down until they almost stopped and then backed them out a bit. Still posts no errors but I had no idea about not cranking them all the way down. Glad I watched this.

[@keirapendragon5486]

Really loved how specific and easy to understand that demonstration of the process for the installation was. I'm eventually getting a completely new system and I'm planning for it to last for years, in spite of making it do some heavy lifting, so something like this to help prolong the life of the CPU as much as possible is definitely useful info.

[@SebiStr99]

Question: Is this still an issue on z790? I know it's the same socket, but maybe they've tuned the ILM to reduce this issue

[@pivorsc]

le dot in case someone answers, i just build on z790 mobo and i'm curious if I need to switch frames since its same socket

[@soklot]

@@pivorsc Wondering the same, i assume it has the same issues since it uses the same socket.

[@aaymanbd]

I just did the mod with my D15 and the difference is huge! The variance is similar to yours, 5-7C cooler on the exact same settings and test run (simple 3xCinebench run with ambient at 25C).

[@brownlab8898]

It's so awesome to see the new studio bringing dividends. This was a really high quality video guys- and on a super interesting product no less!

[@graygeneral]

I wonder how the addition of a cooler on top of the original socket affects contact... presumably if overtightened on the ram side it may compensate somewhat?

[@Doc_Hollladay]

I appreciate you guys doing all of this for the consumers. On the end of intel they need to get this right, because on the other hand consumers shouldn't have to do this.

[@TheTexasStranger]

I know people who were mechanics for years before knowing the back off the threads until they catch trick. Super cool to see it in use here!

[@thomask1424]

OMG, I'd ordered everything for my first Intel build when I saw an ad for this over on Hardware Unboxing. I immediately came here. Thank FSM, I found out about this before I started putting it together. Have one of these on the way now.

[@theone320]

I hope they bring out a bundle with a torque driver. I would be willing to pay more for an easier time mounting the frame.

[@Numfuddle]

Torque drivers that accurately measure and let you set them to such low torque values are very expensive though. They can cost significantly more than the entire contact frame. AMD can probably get away with it because they sell threadrippers at some volume.Even then the torque driver they include is basically something similar to what is used for bicycle maintenance where you need similar torque drivers that have fixed settings of e.g. .2 or 1.5 Nm for wheel spoke repairs and other things

[@christophervanzetta]

@Anonymous One And I doubt they are accurate. Digital torque wrenches used in aviation maintenance are like $2k-$3k and we all know how god damn accurate they are due to federal aviation regulations

[@soulmuse6129]

Having just built a Z690 system and seeing some extremely weird thermal results (I've probably spent a good 3 hours fighting with my cooler mount alone), this explains quite a bit of what I've been seeing. Will have to give the 35 bucks some consideration.

[@mahdis9316]

Yeah mee too. I have 12700k and it's getting quite toasty with default settings

[@slimal1]

I noticed when installing my 12400 that the ILM had quite the fight in it...I sensed something was way off. Then after I set up my battlestation I see 90C while playing Fortnite. Right then I knew Intel screwed up.

[@CeLLeGER]

@@slimal1 if you hit 90 degrees while playing fortnite the error is probably on you for taking an insufficient cooler or installing something false. I have a 12700k and it highest peak while playing cpu high demanding games like total war Warhammer 2 was 82 degrees and that's a peak not the average. Now it's undervoltet and peaks at 72 degrees. While using 40 watt less. The 12400 has a tdp of 117 watts which is way lower than the 12700k. Even with the socket problem you shouldn't reach that temperatures.

[@slimal1]

@@CeLLeGER the differences in the images, as shown by Steve, should be enough to indicate there is something wrong. In case you need more, I'm using the stock cooler, double checked that it's mounted correctly, changed paste, have adequate car cooling. And this is also not my first rodeo.

[@slimal1]

Lol @ car cooling. I meant case cooling

[@ZeroFudgeGiven]

When you look at AMD cpu's since even the Athlon X2 days, the IHS has been the same style. Always the size of the entire PCB, genuinely thick and chunky, may make more heat but seems to do a better job of just making sure all the heat is spread out as evenly as possible. I feel like Intel always wanted some physical appeal to their CPU's with the slick IHS edges and rounded corners. Then shoved 200+ watts into the newest gen without taking into account that more IHS material would be better for rigidity and better heat transfer.

[@nimkal]

The demonstratives were really well made. Great job!

[@potatosordfighter666]

I've never met someone else who knows about reverse threading a screw to start it properly. It's an awesome trick that has never failed me, even on soft plastic

[@Hezzadude12]

I remember seeing many people complain about using 4 slots of DDR5 on XMP being a problem that wasn’t address by motherboard vendors or Intel themselves; but maybe this is the true cause after all?

[@darthvader5300]

One of our technicians has an idea for a new motherboard so that he can apply his own ideas by designing and building a new kind of motherboard out from SCRATCH! He calls it as the "Pluggable Motherboard" and he also designed a secondary packaging for all IC chips (CPUs, RAMs, Modems, ROMs, USB BUS, USB Sockets, DRAMs, etc) so that he can put them inside these secondary packaging so that he can take advantage of the Single Contact Edge packaging design combined with a copper heat conductor to help conduct heat away from the IC chips and into the passive copper tubings angled at an upward angle and the "Pluggable Motherboard" has been designed to be adapted into it and the holding foundation base was also customized from scratch also. And it is all set inside an accessible insulated steel casing. The steel casing can be opened at the top so that one can simply reach in to repair any of the plugged in modules containing the IC chips. There will be an indicator light beside every module, a steady green light indicates it is functioning well and a blinking red light requires that it be replaced. So all you have to do is unplug the module, open it up, read the label and number of the IC chip, get a new IC chip, remove the old IC chip from the secondary pluggable casing and put in the new one and close and secure the secondary pluggable casing and insert it back into it's proper place. Once the red blinking light stops and is replaced with a steady green light, then it is fully repaired and is good to be used again. The same goes for the other different kinds of IC chips and other computer components. He also designed the customized "Pluggable Motherboard" to be a Non-Stop Motherboard wherein you can do your repairs and replacements while the computer is still in operation by using a "Redundancy Processing Computer Architecture" wherein there are several CPUs doing the same amount of work and if one needs to be replaced, then an external indicator light on the outside of the casing will start flashing a red blinking light. The key is redundancy so that one can do any repairs, replacements, checks, tests, and upgrades on the computer's "Pluggable Motherboard" while it is still being allowed to function continuously.

[@janvollgod7221]

let sum it up for the normal joe Doe user. You buy a $500 CPU, and run into problems because the board partner and Intel decided to spare 50 cents / Board, using a cheap socket retention. This is ridiculous. Especially when you see the fact, how much money they make with useless "gamer" Tag BS accessories on the boards. When is earning enough profit enough? Additionally, the problems which this non-symmetrical pressure causes, could be random and sporadic, what leaves our poor Joe Doe with an unstable, weird performing system for years. Without giving the User a chance to come to the root of the cause because of the sporadic nature of the Problem. How good we have GN to come here and learn about it. You guys a great. Thank you.

[@angry_ike7628]

For American people wondering how small .3 Newton-meters is for the torque figure, that's 2.655 pound-inches, 42.48 ounce-inches, or 0.2212 pound-feet of torque. An ESD-insulated torque driver in cNm from McMaster-Carr is $580 each, with NIST-traceable +/-6% accuracy. That's what the criticism on "needing expensive tools in install correctly" was touching on in the installation demonstration.

[@p.d.k.]

I've followed this issue on Igor's Lab, and ended up using the 1mm M4 washer method on my 12700K paired with a 280mm AIO. The advantage to the washers is you can remove and add washers to one side of the ILM at a time so the backplate doesn't fall off the motherboard. Looking forward to seeing how the Thermalright frame fares in testing as the Thermal Grizzly one doesn't appear to be available at the moment.

[@GENKI_INU]

Apparently the issue is only present on certain Alder Lake board's retention mechanisms, like on Asus boards. I'm using 3D printed (PETG Plastic) washers sanded down to 0.8 mm, and it dropped my CPU load temperatures by almost 12c on an overclocked 12600K, on a Asus Z690-P D4 board. For a 12 degree celsius difference to occur, Asus would REALLY have to screw up a motherboard ILM design.

[@seanmolzhon2764]

Congratulations on demonstrating your technique for proper torque sequencing. A effective procedure also called "How to tune a drum head properly"

[@mitchellpatterson1829]

As a mechanic I am familiar with torque spec, torque sequence, and blind hole fasteners. I would not expect the general public to be familiar, or responsive with that kind of thing. Loosely related, It would be awesome to see one of those chemical pressure sheets applied to a head gasket. Since this is a computer channel, the head gasket seals the fire of the engine inside the engine. The block (under the gasket) holds the pistons (that convert fuel air into mechanical energy), and the head (over the gasket) lets fuel/air in, and exhaust out. The gasket must be torqued from the middle outward in an X pattern or it will leak due to binding on assembly.

[@LastSecBloomer]

IIRC, the issue is that there were 2 (or more?) OEMs of the socket, Foxconn being one of them, and sockets made by one of them are not up to par, leading to these issues. The problem is that nobody knows for sure which sockets ended up in which boards and it's basically a socket lottery...

[@b-rant]

Now do we have data of extra failures for the Foxconn sockets, or is it just temps? Is it the entire socket, or socket + ILM? Manufacturers probably wouldn't use them completely interchangeably if failures were the issue. The 7c we saw here is big, but as stated, not much different than a cooler change as well. I personally can live with 7c as i'm not running an i9, nor am i close to thermal throttling. I also believe that products like the 11900k and 12900k arent much different than a jacked up diesel truck in times where fossil fuels are becoming an outgoing energy source. 200+watts on a cpu is extravagant to say the least when you can get 80-90% of the performance at halve the power.

[@slartibartfast2649]

@Brantyn The i9 unlocked SKUs were never a Prius hybrid let's be real. There will always be people who need top tier performance and will be willing to pay for it. Until Intel can revamp their architecture and catch TSMC in terms of process node, Intel will always be pushing stupid power to stay competitive.

[@motortiki]

@@slartibartfast2649 No, the lifted pickup truck metaphor is really spot-on. Anyone who truely needs top tier performance will be buying a Threadripper or a Xeon, which is where the real workhorse cpus are. i9s are for people who want bragging rights but don't want to pay the cost of a true enterprise rig.

[@slartibartfast2649]

​@@motortiki Yes, I agree. People who use their PCs for actual heavy work have a workstation or a server farm. Unless you are a gamer and instability does not bother you more than the prospect of extra fps, overclocking SKUs are pointless any from a price : performance perspective. It is about bragging rights, and not only so that people swayed by marketing buy the "gaming" chip. Intel wants to be able to claim to have the "FASTEST CPU IN THE WORLD" for marketing reasons and they do not care about the power draw or price. Also, what is prohibitively expensive and complex today paves the way for what is standard tomorrow.

[@ironhead2008]

I wonder if a design similar to the dual lever (one on either side) Xeon ILM design might have been better.

[@internziko]

Exactly!

[@telebeam6144]

Is this still needed on 13th gen cpus and z790 motherboards?

[@Skystrike70]

This plus your new GPU power draw video earned my sub. This channel is way more professional than even my university undergrad lab experience.

[@warmachine5835]

Speaking to what Mike said about leaving the CPU socketed while working: having watched Der Bauer end the life of a threadripper socket when he lost control of the CPU, and having my own experience (that I was able to fix, thank god) with my last build knocking a pin out of alignment, I can't put enough emphasis on securing your work area. Another thing I do, semi-related, when working with liquid metal is shrouding the rest of the board with a drop cloth, where only the work space is cut out. Kinda like you might see doctors set up for surgery. It's a lot less hair raising when you know that there's no way a drop of LM or other debris is going to end up somewhere other than the workspace you're focused on.

[@myfavoriteviewer306]

When I was a kid I wanted to be a really cool technician. After watching Mike I realize my entire lifetime body of work has been a waste and I shouldn't have limited my potential. I now aspire to be a cooler technician, just like Mike. 😁 Alright, for realsies, well done! These past several videos have really raised the bar, even for GN's long standing high standards.

[@christopherwood2290]

The ILM is "good enough" engineering. I am sure Intel weighed the pros and cons and decided the design was sufficient.

[@slimal1]

For someone like me who was on the fence a few months ago and then decided to choose Intel...'good enough' is enough to push me to AMD when my next upgrade. Hopefully AMD continues to compete and produce quality

[@spankeyfish]

It's also a design that system builders can cope with on their production lines, DIYers are an afterthought if they're considered at all. 13th gen Intel CPUs are on the same socket so we'll get the same shitty ILM.

[@Power-Wiesel]

I hope AMD is doing a better job on AM5

[@GamersNexus]

We shall soon find out!

[@Damicske]

@@GamersNexus I know you can't respond properly (NDA) on it but. Isn't the footprint almost the same between AM4 and AM5 (just looking at the pictures)? I know PGA vs LGA but AM5 is square and the LGA1700 is 8mm difference width/height.

[@riba2233]

They will, it is already knoen

[@SolomanTiger]

Loved the portion with Mike too in addition to the new part category and analysis

[@marekciostek1458]

18:06 offtop Steve is walking in the background as Mike say "is going to walk" XD

[@RangerLink667]

I went into this video without a huge amount of interest in the topic. How much of a difference could it actually make? I've got to say, I'm only 10 minutes in but blown away by the results. Excellent work by Der8auer and by the GN team. These kinds of investigations push the tech environment to ever greater heights

[@demofighter]

I'm planning on a 12th gen upgrade in the near future, I "invested" in a 4 dollar version of this from Thermalright. My setup is in an ITX case and this has the potential to drop the CPU a few degrees. for that price i'm in.

[@megamanx2395]

Great work as always, but I really like the new animations. They are really well done and really help convey what you guys are presenting.

[@potatopotatopotatopotatopo8746]

Thank you for removing the watermark at the 4 minute time mark. I have asked so many times why you guys have a watermark in all your videos because i don't understand it as nobody else has one and I've never gotten a reply.

[@huma474]

It will be very interesting to see if these same sorts of issues happen with AM5 when that gets released to the public. Keep up the great testing, amazing information!

[@tuckerhiggins4336]

This is why I buy GN's merch. Actually interesting testing, not just benchmarks. Awesome video!

[@rdiznfriends]

gotta say this is one of your highest quality videos. and shout out to mike for what I think is his on camera debut in a video like this. excellent work all around.

[@BICIeCOMPUTERconGabriele]

The quality of this video and all your testing is incredible!

[@Kepe]

I don't think the lever mechanism is the main problem here. The lacking cooler mounting pressure was always on the RAM side, which suggests the CPU IHS is bending down towards the RAM and VRM. That can only happen if pressure is applied to the IHS from two sides: the RAM side and the VRM side. That's exactly the case with the Intel ILM. It has two narrow tabs which are the only parts making contact with the IHS pushing it down, and those tabs are on the RAM and VRM sides of the CPU. They press down on the IHS while the CPU is being pushed up by the 1700 pins of the socket. See 2:40 and 4:21 in the video. Nothing else makes contact with the CPU. That's what bends the CPU and IHS, causing uneven mounting pressure for CPU coolers. The lever mechanism is probably the reason why we see lacking mounting pressure always on the RAM side, but it's not the root cause of this issue. The main issue is that the IHS bends because it is being pushed down from two points on the opposite sides of the IHS instead of being pushed down evenly around the entire IHS or at least from all four sides. It basically comes down to cost as said on the video. It's cheap and easy to make a mechanism which only applies pressure to the IHS from two small areas which are opposite of each other. It would cost a lot more to make a mechanism which applies even pressure to all sides of the IHS. That's what the Thermal Grizzly Contact Frame does. It's shaped so that it pushes down on the entire lip of the IHS all around it. TL;DR: The flap pushing down on the IHS makes contact with the IHS from only two points allowing the IHS to bend, the lever mechanism causes the IHS to be pressed down harder on the RAM side of the socket.

[@shrinkray7950]

Thermalright also provid LGA1700 brackets with much lower price(5-6 usd without shipping). And it works great on my system.

[@justinbroniszewski]

After trying to research this issue for the last few weeks, this is exactly the video I needed! Thanks GN!

[@jessvagnar4957]

Don't mean to pile on the compliments, but this kind of testing and coverage is what changes how manufactures, and at Intel's scale, society operates. Thank you!

[@JoseGarcia-mi4ig]

Definitely gonna need a part 2 video, once Ryzen’s first LGA socket comes out. Since it’s clear the levers itself is gonna be very similar to this too

[@cassioazevedo1482]

Your testing looks very scientific, bro. Good job.

[@MufMurderer]

Bought one immediately after watching this video. No more throttle running r23. Package hit a max of 87 after minutes of running. Huge difference.

[@1PasGas]

where did you find it i cant see it on amazon

[@MufMurderer]

@@1PasGas dude I had to buy it on ebay from a retailer in Germany. Bought it on the 26th at almost 10pm EST and it got to my house this morning.

[@MufMurderer]

@@1PasGas also I spent a couple hours trying to find one in the US and there wasn't a single one for sale. That I could find.