Intel 10nm Delay Explained & AMD's "7nm" | Ft. David Kanter

We speak with David Kanter of Real World Tech on Intel's 10nm vs. AMD's 7nm process. This talks about delays and release dates for Intel 10nm and AMD 7nm.
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This discussion spans process technology, chip fabrication, EUV (Extreme Ultraviolet lithography), 10nm Intel process, AMD 7nm process, and how Intel 10nm vs. AMD 7nm aren't directly comparable by just the number. David Kanter is an expert, third-party analyst from Real-World Tech, and is able to boil-down the technical aspects to base compounds.
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Host: Steve Burke
Guest: David Kanter (www.realworldt...)
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[@GamersNexus]

Almost done moving! Latest moving vlog: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fIrRe6Vni7qsaqM Grab a GN Modmat here: store.gamersnexus.net/ David's website: www.realworldtech.com/

[@mattsmechanicalssi5833]

Funny how the Intel video shows the Space Shuttle, when it's computers (All 6 of them) use AMD embedded 32bit processors. And still to this day, are the most efficient (Power wise) processors. I mean come on, it's not easy to get power in space, despite the cold temperatures! LOL!

[@MrZombie999]

Maybe im misunderstanding but is size not a fixed thing I mean 3ft is 3ft and 100km is 100km so why is 10nm not 10nm everywhere why is there not a fixed universal standard lol

[@InconsistentManner]

Please get a windscreen for that headphone mic if you ever do this again. it cost $1 on amazon. every time you talked steve it was painful. Also a simple hint is to put the mic below your chin and turn up its volume.

[@LordBattleSmurf]

Steve do you think first gen 10nm desktop cpus Holiday 2019 will even have as good pure singlethreaded OC performance as the 9900k 14nm+++? I'm trying to decide if its even worth waiting for 10nm instead of buying 9900k this year (currently using i7 2600k and needing the best singlethread performance for gaming)

[@Zarcondeegrissom]

LordBattleSmurf 6700k, 7700k, and the 8700k, all have the same exact single thread performance at the same OC clock. so unless the 9900k can OC to a 'significantly' higher clock, I doubt it will be that much better than the former three gens. And if you look at the cost per 100MHz each offers, I'm not really sure that extra 2 or so more FPS is really worth it. I think most 7700k will do about 5GHz, and most 8700k will do 5.2GHz unless you got a better than average lottery CPU. And again, for games, that are GPU bound, that's only around single digits more FPS for the cost.

[@ggchbgigghb7699]

Intel should ask GN for advice on putting more and more in a small space. Considering Steve ran a media company from a broom cupboard for 9 years.

[@GamersNexus]

We might not be able to help with processor design, but we can definitely cram more stuff into rooms than just about anyone else.

[@c.m.7692]

dis

[@Xenogear50]

All those years of tetris came in handy LOL

[@HypnoticSuggestion]

I'm sure his tetris skillz are next level

[@xartonz]

best comment ever!!!

[@lplegros]

it's nice to take the time to make a 30 minutes video, when you just moved out your office!! Thank you for all the information you give and all content you create

[@GamersNexus]

Thank you! Almost done moving.

[@lplegros]

Nice, can't wait to see the new setup for your video! :D

[@oompaloompa9000]

This is the interview I've always wanted to listen to. An actual discussion with a subject matter expert in the field.

[@clansome]

Jonathan Hill Someone who actually *knows* what he's talking about. One wonders what the comments might be if the nodes were reversed and Intel was having problems with 7 but AMD"s 10 was almost ready.

[@SeanfromSydney]

Agreed! This video is better than a thousand rumours and comment section arguments. Love it

[@freshstyIe]

Nothing you couldnt find on wikipedia.

[@clansome]

freshstyle Agreed but that's quite the point. Besides Wiki isn't *that* reliable.

[@funbucket09]

namcost can I get some chips too? I think I will go for some pringles. Salt and vinegar flavour please. Cheers Mate! 👍👍👌

[@GarethPW]

Every time he says, "you know," take a shot.

[@Num43]

GarethPW I died. Thanks a lot.

[@Basard100]

I'm takin swigs, I've only got beer... :(

[@morganwhaley9119]

I didn't even notice until you pointed it out.

[@sufyaanshaikh8652]

I don't know the number to poison control.

[@ErgonomicChair]

R.I.P

[@anchorbubba]

Suprised intel dosent release 13.9 nm

[@GlassFoxGear]

This comment won't get enough credit for being hilarious

[@funbucket09]

LOL. Pretty sure that’s not how node sizes work..... 😂😂

[@railshot888]

They will just release a 14nm+++

[@CaveyMoth]

14nm 2 announced

[@Phambleton]

Aron Lee They actually will do. 6700K = 14nm 7700K = 14nm+ 8700K = 14nm++ 9900K = 14nm+++

[@nokkusuu]

crazy how he smiled like that for 30 minutes even while talking

[@2ndLastJedi]

Does David ever blink ?

[@Moonzy]

2ndLastJedi he blinks when you do

[@ArsenicAlchemist]

@@Moonzy this comment was more spooky than most of the scary stories on KZbin.

[@Rob165x]

He's ventriloquist god.

[@yizzie82]

its nice to see some real competition :)

[@MiriadCalibrumAstar]

its sad how intel sleeped all this time with no real steps on newer cpus

[@JABelms]

TSMC is a bigger company than intel in the FAB space since forever, no competition there

[@nawarelsabaa]

This was an awesome piece of technical content. I hope you get the time and place for more interviews of this caliber in the new office, Steve! Thanks for the really in-depth insight, David!

[@kngkunaat]

thanks to David for giving us his opinion on the situation and Steve for making this possible. at first i was hesitant because i thought its gonna be a dry subject with alot of speculation but thanks to Mr. Kanter they whole "10nm" myth makes more sense. I think thats the GN content most people are subscribed for around here. cheers, good luck with the rest of the move

[@avex13]

I would expect AMD selling their products close to the frequency limits even if they improve the process significantly. They've been doing it for a while in CPUs and GPUs. Also, as long as they can keep power draw and heat under control, I'm perfectly ok with AMD pushing their products out of the box. It might be less fun, but you get all you paid for directly out of the box. I'm not so ok with products that require deliding, expensive cooling and lots of tinkering to get all they can offer.

[@depth386]

Alejandro Suárez Mascareño thats the one thing that has always bothered me about AMD, they basically OC their stuff stock and run it “on the edge”. I want reliability so that’s an issue for me to consider. Not an intel fanboi and really considering Ryzen but this issue of headroom does remain a thorn.

[@BoogieDownProduction]

@@depth386 Headroom for? Leave it at stock speeds and it will be stable.

[@depth386]

BoogieDownProduction instead of headroom for OC i think of it as headroom for the cooling to become less effective. Dust gets inside the case, fan motors get old, thermal paste eventually dries up, blocks can begin to clog (watercooling only). That’s what I mean by AMD always pushing to the edge and not leaving as much headroom. That said though, the Zen 2 / Ryzen 3000’s series has me pretty pumped. I hope Intel gets forced to go all out on R&D and competition. Will be great for PC Builders no matter which way you lean.

[@BoogieDownProduction]

@@depth386 Eh still a non-issue. If your thermal paste goes bad in years and years and years to come then it should be changed and nothing AMD/Intel does will change that. Cleaning a computer of dust is basic maintenance but even if you dont do maintenance I have seen very dusty computers run fine. Ryzen chips run cool as is.

[@orionkenya1]

I was able to get my i7-9700K running stable at 5.2 GHz with a corsair h100i platinum. Just simple BIOS tweaks. It outperforms the i9-9900KS and the Ryzen 9 3900X in both Multi core and single core performance.

[@donmooney21]

Very good, real conversation based, honest show. Very refreshing to see in this current world of clickbaity, eye catching titles with no information online news. That we all have become way too accustomed to seeing. Thanks guys.

[@Atilolzz]

Intel delayed 10nm because they are too busy "inventing" a 28 core "mainstream" CPU which runs at "5 GHz" "out of the box"

[@Slenderman63323]

Atilolzz Did they claim 5GHz out of the box? They needed an expensive exotic cooling solution to hit 5.1

[@Denasdc]

Epsilon 5.1 and 5.0 are two different things. 5.0 on air, but 5.1 on exotic. Simple

[@pyroromancer]

4000 watt water chilling unit sold separately.

[@pyroromancer]

@@Slenderman63323 hes putting them in quotes, know your memes

[@Haos666]

@Epsilon Most of online journalists claimed 5Ghz whereas Intel conveniently forgot to mentioned industrial chiller.

[@MrNside]

A follow up to this would be nice.

[@happygimp0]

21:34 There is now half life 3, called half life alyx

[@FarFromHome91]

This is the good life, listening to 2 professionals talk about cutting edge technology. Thanks for the great video, this really cleared up a lot of my confusion about what on earth is 10nm and why intel was still chasing 10nm when AMD had 7nm.... video clearly explained that.

[@1pcfred]

AMD has nothing. AMD has not made a chip themselves in 10 years. They sold their fab in 2008.

[@FarFromHome91]

Paul Frederick Oh I see..but the architecture and manufacturing specs come from AMD, despite being outsourced, am I understanding this right?

[@1pcfred]

That's about the size of it. AMD comes up with the designs then they have fab plant make the chips. AMD cannot afford to build a fab themselves. A new fab these days would cost about 10 times what AMD is worth. That's something else that wasn't mentioned in this video. Intel hasn't really invested in building a new fab for themselves in a while now. But they have the cash. Heck Intel could break ground on 10 new fabs today. But it is still money. I guess they'd rather spend it on executive bonuses?

[@RobBCactive]

2 years ago, now Q4 2020 Intel still delayed on 10nm a blog mentioned Q1 '21 whilst AMD have Zen 3 launching and have taped out on 5nm with flexible chiplets

[@bartios]

Maybe David has some information about what is going on at ASML as they make practically all lithography machines. They are also the developers of euv so I would be very interested in hearing what he knows about the progress.

I like you use videos/pictures to compliment the discussion

[@deeligee]

HL 3 confirmed

[@osgrov]

This is super interesting, thanks to the both of you. What would be nice to hear some thoughts on is how do we estimate that the upcoming 7nm process by GF & TSMC will compare to the existing and current 14++(+) Intel process? Is there any data available that could make for an educated guess with regards to performance?

[@JackLe1127]

I like how David pronounces nanometer. Sounds like nyanometer.

[@MrSandwichk]

I hope 10th gen is 10nm.

[@will3641]

ZC, not likely, copper lake just went out on the net. Another 14nm......

[@CoderMonkeyNathan]

Intel is going to release a partial 10nm in 2019. It's more like 12nm but it's going to be called 10nm.

[@will3641]

Harambe's Ghost, keep at this rate, I would say they will change everything to "justify" all the delay.

[@gordongoodman8342]

If 10th gen is significantly faster and power efficient, who cares?

[@atruebrit6452]

@Gordon Goodman NOBODY. BECAUSE THEY WON'T BE. lol

[@zxa96]

Before this video I was thinking we were near the edge of what was possible with silicon processors but wow, it sounds like there's so many things that we still haven't done that will improve everything massively.

[@MrSandwichk]

AMD's 3nm would come earlier than Intel's 10nm.

[@wuhanlabtech3580]

And that will be the same as Intel's 7nm .. so AMD's 7nm is gonna be out the same around the time as intel 10nm which is basically the same accept when you start digging a little more you will find out again intel will have more frequency headroom .. and I am absolutely a intel fan they are American company providing higher paying jobs here then amd .. same would go for europe .. and btw it's not amd its tsmc doing all the work and also be supplying nvidia with 7nm.

[@cathallawlor989]

Ed Knowlton r/whoosh

[@alienrenders]

Intel's 10nm process has been scrapped. It doesn't exist.

[@MikeHanson]

Ed Knowlton: You're making assumptions. Intel's current chips clock so high because they have been refined on the same process for several generations. AMD got higher clocks on second gen Ryzen chips on the same process too and as their architecture matures theoretically they should be able to squeeze more performance and higher clocks out of them as well. And btw, AMD chips are manufactured by GLOFO and TSMC but they are AMD's design. Without a design there is no chip. TSMC doesn't design chips, they manufacture them. Intel happens to do both which likely has it's own pros and cons. More control but also more expensive. TSMC, not having to invest in design and many other things that Intel does would give them a slight advantage when it comes to the manufacturing process. I think it's going to come down to who designed the better chip and less of which process it was manufactured under, I think that is just marketing BS. Should be an exciting next few years.

[@hjembrentkent6181]

3nm will experience quantum tunnelling, it might be impossible for mass production

[@geezergeek1637]

Great guest, and conversation. Thank you!

[@harpskid]

people keep giving intel crap about 10nm and fail to remember how long it took for amd to adopt anything smaller than 32nm...

[@bird8040]

And yet they are dominating right now

[@harpskid]

@@bird8040 AMD? LOL no. Staying competitive? Definitely. Let's not get carried away here.

[@truedarklander]

@@harpskid AMD outselled Intel in Germany last months

[@bird8040]

@@harpskid They are outselling Intel by a lot, no one is getting too carried away here. I'm not even fanboying as I am still probably going to get an 8700k because that is honestly my favorite cpu, but, AMD has very good value.

[@PinkasBrown44]

8:00 Damn ! This David Carter dude sure knows to freeze like a statue. Not even his lips moved when he elaborated his ideas. :)

[@geiers6013]

Intel wanted to produce 10nm by 2016. Now we have 2020 and on the desktop they still have 14nm++...

[@2010klas]

why this just popped out in my recommendations? huh

[@alexbridenbaker9261]

Is it because Intel is doing the same thing, delaying if again?

[@dondraper4438]

@@alexbridenbaker9261 Yeah, next gen is a new architecture but still on 14nm, and that is launching in Q1~Q2 2021.

[@DevineDigital]

I very much like these interviews, Gamers Nexus always reporting the stuff that matters.

[@angel_bunny]

Discord Beep 28:38

[@frosty9392]

i hate that 2 seconds where you are like "wait.." lol

[@Fulano5321]

And here I was "That beep was familiar... what tab did it come from?"

[@hauntedlolita666]

Hey fellow Elin.

[@m4xwellmurd3r]

Came here to find this comment lol. I heard that and was like "my phone doesnt do the discord beep"

[@Maximum_Nova]

I don't know if GN is necessarily the right channel, but it would be nice to see a sort of long documentary style video on what the hell actually happened with developing Intel 10nm. Broadwell launched October 2014, Alder Lake in November 2021 - a full 7 years between die shrinks on desktop. I've read Sunny Cover cores on Intel 10nm released in September 2019, but still... 7 years of desktop chips at the same size. Could be nice for such a documentary to also discuss the physical changes in 14nm Intel process nodes during that time. What do the different "+" represent, when they weren't just juicing up clock speeds with more power? It happened at least a few times between 5th gen through 11th gen I'm sure. Also, is 14nm still being widely used for things like chipsets, or other things?

[@SarvenderDahiya]

I like such content GN. In-depth tech stuff, feels like i really learned something :)

[@Aspen3212]

Lol I thought that was a recent video until I saw the date 5nm for desktop for 2021 to make up for the delay 😅🤭

[@ErgonomicChair]

Oh yeah 10nm intel sure will be superior than 7nm AMD... you know, in 4-5 more years when AMD is pushing 5-3nm.

[@alexisleftist778]

ErgonomicChair way before then we will probably be using some other material due to the limitations of silicon. If hope at least since its theorized max silicon will be 5 nm but quantum tunneling will become a issue to overcome

[@ErgonomicChair]

I'm heard of carbon nano tube processors but, CNT is so hard to mass produce! I think we're still a ways off from any mass production of CNT of any kind but I could be WAY off and you could be right! It would be pretty cool.

[@CaveyMoth]

How about dat graphene?

[@ErgonomicChair]

Graphene can be pretty tricky but is a possibility... it can be damaged a lot easier than silicon.

[@alphyte2813]

I'm sure intel 7nm competes favorably with TSMC 3nm, if you look at it from the specs, not just a number followed by nanometer. Intel announced that 10nm delays will NOT be affecting 7nm.

[@starcitizen890j5]

Truly excellent work. Nice to have somebody who knows what he's talking about to listen to.

[@yorrickpinte1556]

Looking at this in 2020, this keeps looking worse and worse...

[@HypnoticSuggestion]

I'm 103% sure that this is the first time I've ever heard the term interdigitating. #nice

[@CountCarbsNotCals]

Really outstanding video would like to see more like this

[@lickkittysplit3871]

We need a follow up video over this discussion in 2020. I'd like to hear what David would say today compared to 2018!!

[@yspegel]

to make a long story short........ Intel rested on their ass for too long assuming they would hold their dominant position and now they have trouble waking up. Edit: second conclusion, let us consumers celebrate a once more competitive market!

[@TangoOne]

Now it's 2020 and Intel STILL doesn't have 10nm on their 10th gen core processors.

[@alexadelaide]

This is so much more interesting than all the fucking note 9 coverage. Thank you Steve and David

[@swayze240]

I wonder if the "i9" 8c/16t will only work on z390. I wouldn't be surprised.

[@saladwithsalad]

99%

[@lort6022]

every single z370 board has firmware update that enables 9th gen support... this has been known for months.

[@swayze240]

@@lort6022 everything I've seen said i3 / i5 / i7. None of them mention support for an i9.

[@oxaile4021]

I'm thinking it'll be the only soldered chip in the 9th gen lineup too.

[@swayze240]

@@oxaile4021 I agree. It will need it I'm sure. I like how Intel keeps dropping their base clock so they can fudge the TDP numbers.

[@Num43]

This is why I'm subscribed. A truly educational video. Thank you.

[@zivkeren7770]

the stupid and simple story: that's what happened when wall street mangers takes over technological base company

[@grlmgor]

More likely diversity hires.

[@storm37000]

same thing happening to google/youtube.

[@b1moulto]

Bingo

[@davidjohnson8122]

This is why I'm happy with my good old, traditional lithography-based RELIABLE 32 nm CPU, progress isn't ALWAYS progress!

[@fai5734]

Thanks Steve & David. Really informative and interesting

[@NewToThisChannel]

The resolution of his crystal ball can be greatly improved by going to EUV, however that has its own downsides as well. Mainly cancer.

[@carholic-sz3qv]

samsung has pretty almost accomplished the EUV technology

[@AnsemSmith]

You know, I really enjoy this video, you know... XD Jokes aside, it's actually great to listen to someone who knows about what he's talking about.

[@andljoy]

Whist they may be the same density wise , TSMC etc 7nm is here now and works, intels 10nm is not and the few parts they have on it dont even work properly.

[@lort6022]

tsmc 7nm does not have good enough yields for mass production. only a few engineering samples on 7nm have been done (using big dies). smaller dies are much easier to make. intel has mobile 10nm chips out and working...

[@pyroromancer]

@@lort6022 those are enterprise intel dies cut 3/4th because of massive defects

[@T1H0]

Has 10nm out and working, but they have no advantage over 14nm, not even power draw.

[@dstblj5222]

while tsmc global and samsung all seem to have arm based chips on 7nm running somewhat smoothly

[@Sylarzx]

Where's the first one? Still haven't gotten an answer and I can't find it

[@milohajek]

Well AMD typically bins CPUs on a 9 to 10% range and Intel usually bins at 33 to 35%, so to keep things simple, a AMD CPU rated at 1GHz was binned at around 1090 to 1100MHz where as a similar Intel 1GHz CPU is binned at 1,300 to 1,350MHz and thus you usually have much more headroom on Intel CPUs regardless of die size.

[@BitterCynical]

So while a nanometer is just a unit of measure, different people in the industry have decided to measure different things within the CPU transistor layout?

[@justvideos3216]

Now it is end of 2019. Intel has 10 nm. It uses less power, but only works with slow frequencies. So the CPUs are only used in Laptops. AMD has high frequency 7 nm. Intel is trying to keep up with this with an improved 14 nm process. On few cores, Intel can run higher frequencies but AMD has higher ICP (Instructions per clock). Intel has theoretical still the fastest chip, but only on few cores. AMD starts delivering CPUs with more cores to the consumer market. They need less power, are cheaper offer more connections to the peripherals and nearly crushed Intels product line. On the other hand AMD has problems to deliver high quantities of the top of the product line. The top model 16 cores (32 threads) for the consumer market has delayed. It will be delivered tomorrow. Lets see how many AMD can deliver. Intel has troubles to do deliver the amount of 14 nm chips they could sell too. That's weird, because the CPUs aren't the best anymore. It is probably due to long-term supply contracts to large PC manufacturers. Intel uses additionally external manufacturer to get enough chips. AMD has no own factories. All chips are created by TSMC. AMD uses a chiplet design. This means the CPU is being build by using several small chips (called chiplets). The best chipplets are sorted out and used in CPUs with more cores. Therefore, the situation has arisen that the CPUs with the most cores run the fastest at each core. This makes these CPUs suitable for gaming, although not all cores are used by the games yet. AMD has a much better income now. Intels income seems not to decrease. Just more chips seems to be sold in total. Will this continue to work for Intel if they can not deliver 10 nm chips for desktops? Or is Intel able to create 10 nm for Desktop? This is what the future will show.

[@stereodark]

Awesome videos! Very appreciated

[@depth386]

Epic info! One interesting thought, is increased density going to create more thermal issues?

[@ireness1233]

Leave it to GN to brighten my day with MORE great content!

[@kn00tcn]

ice on my wrist, shine like a light, i'ma brighten up your day, even at night

[@LetsGetTechy]

It took me until after the ad to realize Kanter wasn't actually on screen. After the ad, I was like, "man this guy is the king of being still"... and then I realized it was just a picture. I need to go back to bed.

[@TechHug]

David's a smart guy, but did he really just try to play off a PR blow as effectively irrelevant?

[@billcosby4u]

My take on what he said was that if it takes Intel 3 months longer to come to market with an equivalent product then it won't vastly change the Intel - AMD power dynamic (it just means that AMD has bragging rights for 3 months). However, if it takes Intel a lot longer to catch-up then AMD may have a real chance of gaining significant market-share.

[@TechHug]

By every indication it's gonna be closer to 6+ months, which is also enough time that AMD will be able to play with pricing.

[@billcosby4u]

I hope so. Lord knows I'm no fanboy for any company (I can't even fathom the mindset of some of those people), but I really want to see AMD do well, make a ton of money, and kick Intel hard enough for them to stop resting on their laurels and get back to making some seriously good products. 6 months to 1 year of technical dominance may be enough to do just that.

[@cowthedestroyer]

What if Intel says they are delayed but they are making 5nm to bamboozle everyone.

[@daviXD18]

cowthedestroyer that's dumb

[@cowthedestroyer]

So is fortnite.

[@mduckernz]

That would be a massive shareholder violation. That said, this doesn't mean Intel wouldn't do it, they've broken serious financial laws in the past.

[@DavidTMSN]

No.

[@hovant6666]

0:10 Steve you left distance fog enabled

[@tenpayne]

Love this content, very insightful and informative into the state of technology

[@thanosAIAS]

Very informative chat !!!

[@Dirtyboxer1]

I liked this video quite a bit, Steve. I learned quite a bit. Thanks.

[@whatTheFup]

Simply excellent, lots of good info and insight

[@witnesszer0]

is nm a better representation of performance

[@pegasusted2504]

I don't think it's possible to tell as none of them, as far as I know, actually measure it properly. I may be wrong though and be great to learn how :~)

[@johngg4867]

Not really, but you can assume that CPUs with smaller manufacturing nodes are newer, and therefore, (slightly, actually depending)higher performance

[@ZanderX10]

nm is mostly just a naming label for commoners like us. It somewhat correlates to density, which we don't care about, and doesn't correlate with performance at all since 14nm++ is better than 10nm. New nodes these days are trade-offs; they want better density to bring cost down but without new technology it will lose performance and yield.

[@popcorny007]

The size of the lithography directly relates to power efficiency, meaning that the thinner it is, the higher the clock speed can be at the same power usage (In very basic terms). It raises the upper boundary that the physical dies can support, improving EVERYTHING.

[@doc7000]

The smaller they go the less power it takes to power it meaning more energy efficient. As well as being able to fit more transistors on a die of the same size. So yes there are advantages including performance advantages in going with smaller transistors. With that said there is the law of diminishing returns as well as challenges at smaller sizes. Really the future of cpu designs seem to be what amd did and what Intel will be moving to. That is "glueing a bunch of 4 core cpus together to make one cpu.

[@milohajek]

December 3rd, nope still no 10nm Intel parts as i just purchased a upgrade for one of my systems and the best was the 14nm++ option (whatever the heck that is) so i got a Z390 Aorus Master gigabyte board with a i9-9900KS and 128GB of Corsair Vengeance LPX RAM, according to what i have seen intels 10nm chips will mainly be available in mobile products in Dec-2019 to Q1 2020 and they have hinted that the desktop counterparts (which are slated for Q4 2022) are listed as 7nm, so who knows, but what i do know is that if you want a desktop intel CPU for Christmas 2019....your going to be left out in the cold.

[@MrV1NC3N7V3G4]

Why hasn't Intel made it a point to focus on this dissimilar comparison of the two processes? Are they simply taking the "high road?"

[@1pcfred]

What can anyone say past performance specs. Tech is at a level now where it cannot be easily examined. It may even be beyond our technology to examine integrated circuits after they've been processed into products? It is not like Intel can just waltz into a competitor's fab and learn all of their secrets. No one is going to just give up their technological advantages. Well, it has happened. I think companies are more savvy about that sort of thing today though. Fortunes hang in the balance.

[@defeqel6537]

Intel isn't selling their fab production to outsiders, so all anyone cares about is the performance of the end-products.

[@MrV1NC3N7V3G4]

@@1pcfred companies regularly examine the chip architecture of competitors IC's. It's a trivial thing for them. I understand that performance is the main goal and that's what we should be measuring, but everyone seems to be making a huge deal about architecture size these days. If it's not a big deal and we only care about actual performance, why is it such a huge topic? I think some tech channels get too focused on nit-picking. Who cares what size lithography a company is using as long as it meets specs at the desired power consumption, right? I love that AMD is keeping Intel on their toes because competition is always good for the consumer, but don't count Intel out just yet. They pioneered this architecture that everyone is trying to improve.

[@lort6022]

because intel makes their own chips and looks at performance instead of talking about nanometer, because it's useless. intel's 14nm is more advanced than glofo 12nm which ryzen 2nd gen uses. intel 10nm is on par or slightly better than tsmc 7nm, go figure...

[@1pcfred]

Actual performance has been driven by Moore's Law. But we're at a point where it is not as easy to keep going anymore. Look at the advance of the industry like folding a piece of paper over and over. Initially it isn't so hard but after a number of folds it just gets tougher and tougher to make the bend. At it's core Moore's Law was all about shrinking the pitch of parts on a die. That's it. That is where virtually all performance gains have come from. Halve the pitch and double your performance. Now they can't even reduce the pitch by 50%. Up to about 10 years ago they halved the pitch like clockwork. Then it got hard to keep doing that. Since about 22-24nm it has gotten really hard to reduce the pitch of parts. Which is why the industry is stagnating. Their path to increased performance is blocked for them going forward. They just can't make that hard fold anymore. They've actually resorted to what amounts to lying about pitch lately. In order to keep the fantasy of the good times going.

[@NinjaXHide]

@Gamer Nexus Do you really think Intel will solder the I9 9900K ? It would make them sell like bread :D I will sell my PC instantly and upgrade fully and waiting for the GTX 1180

[@Motolav]

Dante eh the new 8 core probably wouldn't be worth it for gaming over the 6c/12t. Most games now aren't optimized for more than 6 threads.

[@GamersNexus]

Not sure. We'll find out once we get one!

[@Tallnerdyguy]

Motolav or even really 6 threads

[@NinjaXHide]

Try streaming =)) And i'm 100% sure that new games and today games love more cores ;) Imagine 8/16 threads at 5GHz

[@NinjaXHide]

And saying that games are not optimised for more than 6 threads is wrong :( Check Battlefield 1 and COD WW2 :D

[@CALLINGINDOGS]

2021 is around the corner and intel is S T I L L on 14nm LMAO

[@JoyEnergiser]

Is there a building tall enough in the world for that elevator explanation at 17:00 ;)

[@buzzcrave5017]

7mm bbyyyyyyyyy

[@issaciams]

Wholly shit this is extremely technical even for this channel. But I really enjoyed listening to it. Processor lithography has always amazed me the way stars amaze star gazers and astronomy enthusiasts. I just can't believe the human race came up with a way to use light to make processors for computer chips. So crazy. Thank you for this GN.

[@strapzo2160]

That explains the delay of 10nm, so basically Intels 14nm is equivalent to AMDs 12nm.

[@lego46143]

Strapzo no

[@ErgonomicChair]

No, not exactly. That's really oversimplifying the way these two architectures are different... AMD's 12nm is equivalent to AMD's 12nm basically, and Intel's 14nm is equivalent to their own stuff, the two are just vastly different so its a gross misrepresentation to compare the two. Whereas, yes, the DIE substrate itself is a bit larger than 12nm of course even Intels is and for some reason, he's not pointing that out. But the bits that AMD actually has transistors on etc is in fact 12nm. Intel's 10 nm is just... its a flop, nothing is working right now and the chip they put in that laptop it is frighteningly bad. Intel has put off actually improving technology or changing their architecture up because AMD was incapable of competing because, let's face it, AMD has been completely irrelevant and shit for the past 6 years. So AMD went to the drawing board and completely changed their architecture etc, they thought of it from another angle and BAM Ryzen, whereas Intel has done NOTHING but forcing more and more performance from the same architecture. This means that the architecture of Intel is very sound, its VERY powerful for what it is, but when AMD is considering radically cool things like butter doughnut, the new Epyc cores, and releasing things like Ryzen and Intel is still struggling just to squeeze more and more performance from the same architecture? Its not a good outlook for Intel for quite a while. This blunder will take years more to solve. Their current 10nm has half the core complex dead and fused off... so yeah... Intel's 14nm is NOT equivalent to AMD's 10nm, just like Intel 14nm is not equivalent to Samsung etc's 10nm.

[@ErgonomicChair]

Yeah that's fair to say.

[@ErgonomicChair]

Mkay.

[@PainterVierax]

Patrick, we're not talking about ISA but manufacturing process made by founders like TSMC, Intel, Samsung or Global Foundries. BTW about ISA and stupid statements, x86 is in bad shape : it's old, keeping retrocompatibilities that makes it complex to make and it became less relevant between ARM and Power9. The not so good in low budget SBC (but popular) RaspberryPi 3 is already quite comparable to a 10years x86 laptop in performance with way better consumption and some server farm are already moving from x86 to ARM. Microsoft is now developing for ARM too, Qualcomm is trying to add build-in x86 emulation : there are some huge signs of changing. Even ARM (that is quite old design too but less dusty) starts to loose attraction in the ultra low power and embedded market with the merge of the fresh and royalty-free outsider called RISC V.

[@rndompersn3426]

Is the issue that we dont have EUV or that we have EUV but intel doesnt know how to use it?

[@Roedygr]

You'd think all you would have to do for UV lithography is change the source. Is it that all positioning has to way more accurate?

[@normac3914]

Intel has approved this delay in 2021 and forever.

[@cs_mns]

Super interesting talk, cheers guys :)

[@jyudat4433]

i listened to the whole thing. this was a great video

[@Rip-Van-Tinkle]

Great video guys!

[@GandraZz]

On the wiki part of video, left side has blank space and right cut of.

[@freshstyIe]

Expected so much more from this video:(

[@Vladek16]

this was so technical I'll have to watch it a 2nd time to understand it ^^

[@GordonClare]

Can you try freezing the 1950x or the new 32 core with a freezer unit or ln2

[@nO_d3N1AL]

Works out as a good marketing opportunity I suppose, 10th gen an 10nm. I wonder what they'll call it? I'd like to see more videos in this style, discussing longer-term hardware developments.

[@jellowiggler]

Good conversation, very informative.

[@mindnova7850]

What is the “density” he’s talking about?

[@JB52520]

The density of the logic gates. If Intel's smallest feature is 10nm but they fit more logic gates in the same area as another company's 7nm process, then Intel's process has superior density, which matters more than feature size. But density is only one variable. It also matters how much power the chip requires, the maximum speed it can run at for a given voltage, and how well the architecture performs.

[@mindnova7850]

Humans suck Many thanks.

[@bombproof831]

For the longest time I thought David’s picture was him just being very still.

[@AlbertoKostner]

I understand a little more now.. you know!

[@HoldMeForever]

When do they discuss AMD's "7nm"?

[@Adrian-yn4qg]

Great content. The best tech youtuber out there.

[@billytaj7708]

I know this is a stupid question so I apologise but why cant intel use tsmc or someone else? Does intel have to use their own fabs? Can't intel buy tsmcs process or pay them a fee for it? Or would they lose too much money doing that? I get their 10nm is about the same as other 7nm but still.

[@johnlahey2157]

What is going on @ 06:54? Looks like a crane exploding?

[@LeeFall]

6:54 is that crane falling?

[@AMDJunkie]

How crazy would it be if some day in the near future AMD surpasses Intel?

[@bird8040]

They already have

[@ZoneCrasher]

@@bird8040 Now that's crazy..

[@Reddoguk]

10nm yields are terribad. If Zen2 and Zen2+ @ 7nm has 25% IPC over current Zen then Intel are screwed, AMD is the Bang for Buck champions again right now but IPC needs a 15-25% boost. Gamers mostly prefer Intel chips because 5ghz on 2 cores or what ever beats AMD's 4.35ghz.

[@mattdfarmer]

Damn and I thought buildzoid videos got technical... Great content!

[@B1_GGS]

Would David Kanter know much about the specter vols? i was reading about the next gen ARM chips. they mention specter and how its a flaw in how the CPU architecture works and is to be patch in software now I cant find that link. rip. wondering if he'd know any details about this. #ASKGN

[@mduckernz]

BIGGS Yes, it's a speculative execution bug. It's hard to _properly_ fix (all current variants, and the capability for future variants as they're discovered) without modification to the microarchitecture and probably OS as well, without causing severe performance loss. Maybe new instructions that inform the CPU which segments of instructions are allowed to be executed speculatively? For which you would need OS support so it could emit those instructions in line with the security flags of each process and such. This would also make fixes a software thing and not hardware in the future. I'd take a look at Project Zero at Google, they were the original discoverers of Spectre.