Games That Push the Limits of the Sega Saturn

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• [Low Score Boy] Sega S...
The Sega Saturn was Sega's second to last system, but sadly its remembered as failure. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have a fantastic library of games, because it absolutely does and I'm going to be taking a look at a few that push it to the limit!
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00:00 Intro
00:26 Wipeout 2097 / Wipeout XL
06:47 Sega Rally
07:55 Fighting Vipers
13:00 Skillshare insert
14:06 Quake
19:20 Panzer Dragoon II Zwei
25:15 Burning Rangers
28:20 Ending waffle and Patreon Thanks

[@ldrelick]

Radiant Silvergun, some 24 years later, still manages to make my jaw drop. One of the most technically impressive games for the system, it takes the VDP1 and VDP2 to new heights. The final boss fight against the "running man" in particular is super impressive.

[@Blas4ublasphemy]

Galactic Attack too!

[@Flameb0]

@JM Coulon i like silvergun but that really sounds like grasping at straws

[@ultimateman55]

That epic sound track certainly doesn't hurt it either!

[@andrewharris9302]

We were poor when I was a kid, but they were clearing out the Saturn 🪐 for $40 bucks with games for $5-8 my parents got me one with 6 games as a combo birthday/Christmas present. It’s my favorite system and my parents are so great for getting me such a great present when I was a kid 🙂

[@BluePeaify]

😅

[@subielife4life]

You had great parents, we were also poor but not so poor that my parents couldn’t afford to buy us video games yet I never got any from them because my parents were cheap-stake assholes….it was actually other parents that felt sorry for me and brothers that they gave us an n64 and later on I got my hands on a game boy pocket

[@jackrussell3084]

Seems you were actually wealthy in the areas that mattered most.

[@9ner]

thank sega of japan for royally screwing up the western market so you can enjoy an excellent console for cheap lol

[@Ren-th7kk]

Nice video. I really like old 3D systems like the Saturn, N64 or PSOne. Back then every console had it's very own architecture with its very own pros and cons. Thus the games had a very distinctive look depending on the system they ran on. Today's consoles on the other hand are just soulless mid-range pcs. Probably for the best, but I'm glad that I experienced the wild days of early 3D!

[@BobbyHo2022]

Yep. How I feel too. Soulless pcs

[@wolfetteplays8894]

Mid range? Bruh, the series X beats out PCs you can get for triple the cost 💲

[@Ren-th7kk]

@@wolfetteplays8894 For 1500 you can build a PC that wipes the floor with both the Series X and the PS5. You can get a 3070 for around 600 now.

[@lorabex791]

@@Ren-th7kk Yeah and after the GPU you still need an motherboard, fast ram, a processor that doesn't boittleneck,. Or you can buy a xbox series x and forget about all that.

[@DukeDudeston]

"You can get a 3070 for 600 now" Urm.. Not really helping the defence here, yes a 3070 can "out perform" a Xbox series x.. But that 1 component of a PC already costs MORE than an Xbox series X. Also for the record the reason why consoles are "cheaper" is because the companies actually lose money or barely breaks even on each console sale. Instead the price is made up through other sales for example the need to buy a subscription to play online, and of course through licensing of games and additional hardware ect...

[@stevethepocket]

That overlap culling in the _Quake_ port is incredibly impressive. It took ages for that level of efficiency to go mainstream because algorithms that thorough tend to waste more processing power than it would take to just render the extra polygons instead. _Quake_ itself was only possible thanks to a then-innovative form of overlap culling called binary space partitioning, which was still very limited; it can only cull entire areas rather than individual polygons. I wonder if the Saturn's use of quadrilaterals was key to the sub-polygon culling. Slice a triangle almost anywhere and you no longer have a triangle, but slice a rectangle parallel to its sides and it's still a rectangle.

[@possible-realities]

Quake (at least the PC version) also uses a technique called Potentially Visible Set, which records which parts of the level might be seen from which places in it. This kind of technique works much better with indoor areas that are connected by doorways compared to outdoor areas where you can see a lot more things through different paths. I'm not sure if quads help with polygon slicing. Slice off a corner of quad, and you've got a 5-sided polygon. Or you can be left with a triangle. In either case, you now have to represent them with quads. If you slice a triangle and get a quad, it's pretty simple turn it into two triangles.

[@kamilciura7953]

@@possible-realities Saturn Quake runs on a completely different PowerSlave engine, build from the ground for the platform, so who knows what kind of technical wizardry happens under the hood.

[@richardg8376]

Quake on the PC prevented overdraw by using the BSP to sort all the potentially visible surfaces from nearest to the camera to furthest, then it would track which pixels had already been drawn to the screen in horizontal strips. It would still technically TRY to draw polygons that were hidden behind others, but because it knew it had already drawn the pixels in that area, it could just skip that polygon and carry on. As someone else pointed out, it further optimised things by building a potentially visible set, which was basically a precalculated cheat sheet which told the renderer "from the BSP node you're currently in, these are the nodes that you need to bother with, ignore everything else". It's one of the reasons why level designers for BSP games HAD to make sure that the level had no gaps leading to the void outside: without that it would break all the VIS calculations and the game would just try to render everything all the time if you tried to play the map.

[@fuzz11111111]

@@richardg8376 "no gaps to the void" stayed a thing in quake 2, half-life (which was based off quake 1) and probably the source engine (never made a map for that). I only encountered it once (with a map I decompiled which was never very accurate), but I remember hearing of people having real issues with it, and trying to solve the leaks by putting a big box around entire level (then wondering why performance was horrible). I do wonder why the map compiler couldn't give you some kindve clue as to where the leak is (I don't know details of how those visibility calculations worked but you'd think after a while they could detect a common point which all iterations are encountering). Maybe they made something like that at some point...

[@matthewmangan6251]

wipeout's wireframe mode shows how quads are subdivided as they get closer to the camera for texture stability/mipmapping

[@Sharopolis]

Yes they do don't they! That's something I'll talk about the next time I do 3D games.

[@slashrose3287]

@@Sharopolis I REALLY love a polygon counter feature in emulators like Kronos or Mednafen/Retroarch for SS, you know something about that?

[@AlessandroSchiassi]

It's probably one of the earlier adoption of LOD, I'm impressed!

[@matthewmangan6251]

@@Sharopolis i feel like people always forget the virtua cop ports when discussing impressive saturn games

[@Sly2Cooper]

Surface polygons close to camera are subdivided because affine texture warping become less visible on smaller polygons.

[@JanusCycle]

That wireframe mode in Wipeout XL is a fascinating cheat code. Great channel, thank you.

[@HappyCodingZX]

Sonic R may not be the best racing game on the Saturn, but it does have some really clever code going on, including landscapes that fade in as well as reflections. One of the developers talks about it in depth on his Coding Secrets channel.

[@cireza_]

There actually several games implementing proper fade-in for backgrounds, like Amok or Scorcher. I am sure there are others but I can't remember right now. It was very nice to see this on Saturn.

[@SomeOrangeCat]

Excellent example of "Great tech demo, lousy game"

[@segat-800]

That should've been on the list, not Wipeout 2097.

[@simonrobinson1566]

I'm still looking forward to a Coding Secrets vide about the rippling water effect in Sonic R. It was a big feature of the game at the time.

[@mattuw82]

Traveler's Tales made a lot of impressive games that had lousy gameplay.

[@AkujinGG]

Grandia is a cool example of a game crafted and made to run specifically on the Saturn. The "shadows" on the buildings of the first town of Parm look transparent, but they're not real alpha transparencies, it's just a unique mode 7 ground texture recolored with a darker palette near the houses and objects iirc. Characters would also get a darkened palette swap when walking on these shadows to help sell the effect. Although the Playstation could easily do transparencies without tricks, the programmers went for the direct port approach and the sprite heavy game ended up being too taxing on the system's RAM imo. Lots of tricks and effects were removed and this is why the PSX version looks like an inferior port. Also the battle backgrounds from the PSX are pre-rendered, whereas the Saturn uses real 3D environments. Go figure. And the PSX source code of the game was also used for the Steam port too, this is why many people were complaining it looked worse than the Saturn.

[@Tekknorg]

The Mode 7 Trick was also used in unreleased Saturn Version of Ninja

[@costumeninja1914]

@@Tekknorgcan we play that? Ninja?

[@nickbond6447]

The Saturn is a wonderful, enigmatic piece of hardware. It is so nice people are talking about it’s 3D capability. The 1 dimensional thought that it is a ‘2D powerhouse, because of those Capcom fighters (that need additional hardware boosts anyway!)’ does not describe her in the best light and takes the shine off it’s unique way of rendering 3D games. If contemporary games were not convincing of its 3D prowess then the latest developments in home brew are pretty conclusive

[@danmann861]

To anyone who says Saturn couldn't do 3D, I always point them towards that Saturn Shenmue Video. I mean that is still some of the most impressive shit I ever saw from that generation and makes me wonder to this day what could have been.

[@ssppeeaarr]

@@danmann861 i wish they released it on saturn also that rumor'd virtua fighter 3. showin the world once n for all saturn could compete with ps1 and was better.

[@Psx806]

@@ssppeeaarrit was going to be released prob is they ported vf3 to the Dreamcast and that’s why that version of the game looks so bad

[@orderofmagnitude-TPATP]

Man I'm commenting prior to watching but booting up quake you could almost see the Saturn breaking into a severe sweat. That light sourcing was awesome too. Lobotomy really did a grand job here. Vf2/ last bronx also was a very close conversion considering it was from a model 2 board.

[@jasper-byrne]

VF2 might top FV in some technical aspects, though the lighting is simpler, it runs in 704x480 res at 60fps which is pretty amazing for the time

[@rars0n]

According to an interview with Hiroshi Kataoka (Sega Saturn Magazine, November 1996), the polygonal walls were a big challenge for the Saturn FV port, along with the armor that can be broken off on the fighters. Because of the way that the Saturn draws polygons, it's difficult to make it render large polygons like walls without causing a good deal of slowdown. FV is one of the most technically impressive fighting games on the Saturn, although it doesn't use the high-res mode that VF2 uses. Other fighting games worth looking into are Last Bronx, Fighters Megamix, Dead or Alive, and Zero Divide.

[@bakaneiro]

I believe Fighters Megamix is not 60fps, but it High res

[@rars0n]

@@bakaneiro You've got that backwards. It uses the Fighting Vipers engine (which itself was largely based on the work done with VF2). It's 60fps, but not high-res.

[@bakaneiro]

@@rars0n oh ok. So then Fighters Megamix is more impressive technicaly than FV dont you agree? Better graphics, more scenarios and a dodge move from VF3!

[@ENiceGeo]

Another fighting game to look at would be D-Xhird. It is pulling off a lot of impressive graphical effects for a Saturn game but at a severe cost.

[@rars0n]

@@bakaneiro They look pretty much identical to me graphically, although there are some changes between the two which IMO leaves it up to personal preference. For instance, Tokio's stage in Fighters Megamix has the plane flying off at the beginning, which Fighting Vipers does not have, but the rest of the background surrounding the stage is completely absent of all 3D objects, like the plane and buildings. Fighting Vipers doesn't scale these properly when zooming in and out though, so the effect does look a little weird, and neither game rotates the background graphics properly in sync with the ring itself, but In general I feel that the stages just look a little better in Fighting Vipers. That said, there's a lot more content in Fighters Megamix, so I think it's a toss up between the two. I kinda prefer my VF and FV separately to be honest (VF2 just looks so much more crisp and plays a lot differently than FM).

[@albdamned577]

If you look at Sega's development of 3d gaming it becomes pretty clear what they were trying to do with the quad sprites. In the 80s and early 90s, Sega was obsessed with sprite rotation and scaling in games. When they got to the Saturn they turned what they did better than anyone into the quad sprite approach. The sprites are scaling and rotating together. The antecedent to this can be found on the Sega CD, there are examples in games that create this effect verbatim.

[@roocrew86]

Last Bronx is worth checking out mate, pushes fighting graphics beyond vipers

[@Sharopolis]

I nearly went with that, but the only thing is it lacks proper shadows. But fair point it does look amazing, better than Fighting Vipers in a lot of ways.

[@roocrew86]

@@Sharopolis great video though Saturn is a fascinating console

[@TheWarmotor]

The SlaveDriver engine was an amazing feat, responsible for pretty much every decent FPS game on the Saturn!

[@jamesnewman4351]

The Slavedriver was responsable for only 3 FPS games. The Lobotomy boys did a Majestic job with Duke 3D ,Quake and Exhumed.

[@TheWarmotor]

@@jamesnewman4351 Yes, but how many other decent FPS games were there on the Saturn? Also really weird that Quake and Build were giants in the world of FPS, but apparently rebuilding those games was easier than porting their engines to the Saturn?

[@azazelleblack]

@@TheWarmotor Quake and Build both relied heavily on the fact that "x86" CPUs were very, very fast for their time-most other consumer hardware relied heavily on specialized ASICs-accelerator chips for things like graphics and sound, while on the PC, everyone just did everything on the CPU, because it was fast enough to do that. Because of this design philosophy, it was almost impossible to port these PC engines to other hardware, because most other hardware simply didn't have the performance to achieve playable frame rates in those engines. It required extensive re-writes to shuffle multimedia functions off to accelerator chips, and besides the time and money investment to do so, there simply weren't that many developers out there that even COULD do such a thing.

[@johnmarkther2218]

Unfortunate name

[@TheWarmotor]

@@johnmarkther2218 Thanks for chiming in to remind everyone (presumably) that slavery was bad. Really added to the conversation, there.

[@LRon-ef7ni]

Saturn holds a large place in my heart. All these games were genuinely stunning and not just “good for a Saturn game”

[@PianoBlack62]

Wireframe wipeout is beautiful. Imagine that running on a vectrex

[@yoymate6316]

god. imagine how would a late-90s successor to the vectrex would look like.

[@jasonblalock4429]

You'd probably enjoy the Dreamcast (and later on modern systems) game Rez, if you haven't played it. It's a psychedelic rail shooter with a very early-80s low-fi CGI aesthetic, mostly made of wireframes and flat-shaded polys. It's super-stylish, and plays well too.

[@Keepcalmandcupcakes]

Would love to see a "part two" to this video covering the 2d aspects of the Saturn. Especially how the 1mb and 4mb RAM (and character rom cartridges too for fast-loading specific games' data, though I've never tried those) allowed near perfect ports of certain CPS-II, Neogeo and Sega Titan arcade games. Dragonforce and its sequel are also wonderful examples of the Saturn's 2d capabilities, to the extent that they had to wait for the Playstation 2 for a port to be possible on Sony's hardware. Keep up the amazing videos as always.

[@CplEthane]

The most impressive aspect about the Saturn's 2D hardware isn't how it augments the likes of CPS-2 and Neo-Geo ports. The Saturn had more than enough CPU and RAM to implement an entirely software-based approach when it came to background layers, background layer effects, to include sprites. We know this is possible because developers have and _did_ implement an entirely software 3D (yes, three-dee) engine for the Saturn. The Sega 32X was essentially the Saturn hardware running without a GPU and its twin CPUs running at at 2/3rds the clock speed of the Saturn's, and it could run 3D games with an entirely software-based 3D engine. 3D will always be several orders more resource-intensive than 2D could ever be, and if the Saturn could run 3D purely in software without assistance from its GPUs, then it could easily do the same for 2D. Anyway, the Saturn's 2D hardware was not implemented to make it into a "2D powerhouse". This is a contrivance of the sour grapes variety by fans after the Saturn flopped. The reason Sega added the 2D hardware late into the Saturn's development was to augment the 3D hardware. That's it. That's the entire reason they did it. Take a look at the original buggy, messy release of Virtua Fighter and the later re-release that fixes a number of things. Not only does the game run noticeably smoother and faster, notice the floor plane where the fighters stand on. It doesn't bug out and split/tear anymore. What Sega did was basically use the same technique that the Super Nintendo used for F-Zero and Mario Kart: a simple 2D background plane using raster effects. This costs almost zero CPU to implement, and allowed Sega to use that CPU time and 3D hardware processing power elsewhere. All those awesome 3D water effects in the Panzer Dragoon series? More raster effects by this 2D system. I'm not saying that this hardware addition wasn't a good thing for 2D arcade ports because it was, but the Saturn could have still been a great system for those games regardless of that additional hardware.

[@djmips]

7:16 pedantic note - it's not called depth culling; depth culling is another name for z-buffering or a technique for hidden poly removal. What's happening here is just the 'draw distance' being brought in - and the culling is against the far plane of the main camera.

[@simonrobinson1566]

In terms of graphical achievement, I think Scorcher is a game that deserves to be mentioned. Makes much better use of the Saturn's hardware power than Wipeout. Lots of VDP2 transparencies, various lighting effects, and all done at a blostering pace.

[@artemusprine]

Indeed. Scorcher has the benefit of Scavenger having designed it around the hardware while Wipeout was designed around the PS1's strengths/weaknesses.

[@bjraleigh1439]

it would be interesting to see the wireframe mode with scorcher. I like the game being console exclusive to the saturn, but i'd be curious to see how the game would go on the ps1.

[@simonrobinson1566]

@@bjraleigh1439 My thinking is that the PS1 would replicate it OK, on VDP1 transparencies like exhaust gasses it would even look a bit better. Background layers of transparent clouds (handled by VDP2) would be absent and colours would probably be a bit less vibrant.

[@IMDLEGEND]

I always loved the way Scorcher looked. It's too bad I could never get past the level with all of those pits! 😄

[@roberto1519]

I could watch technicalities and reviews of all 1000+ games for the Saturn nonstop, great console. I'd do the same for other consoles, but the Saturn is something special. Now that I've watched the whole video, I noticed you didn't mention the widescreen option on Panzer Dragoon II, it's pretty neat.

[@marcfuchs6938]

People kept complaining over the Switch and it's power pretty much since it's release, now if those people would think back, what we used to have in a dedicated home system, they may realize how damn spoiled they are - how spoiled we are. I personally am very satisfied with what that console can do and I wouldn't mind sporting it for another 5 years.

[@TheLairdsLair]

Dead or Alive is definitely worth a mention, as it looks absolutely stunning.

[@aortaplatinum]

The Saturn homebrew scene is miniscule but XL2 makes up for it with how insanely impressive Hellslave is. You gotta check out the prototypes if you do another of these videos. Surprised Sonic R wasn't on here though, with it's solid frame rate and very smooth fade-in polygons effect

[@slashrose3287]

Completely agree with Hellslave (which isn't even coded in pure assembly, so more "juice" will be available through SS raw power once it will be perfected by Maxim/XL2); Sonic R too is a real technical achievement, especially with it's (almost) full SS resources usage (more on Jon Burton's Coding Secrets SCU DSP video)

[@RickyT280294]

Wipe out looks really clean on the Sega Saturn... Not texture warping etc as I'm used to with the PS1.

[@CaptainGameSlayer]

I was trying to figure out why this looked better than the PS1 version and that’s exactly what it was, the lack of texture warping here.

[@maiers]

Fighters megamix has the evolution of the fighting vipers engine and has actual 3d backgrounds.

[@JD3Gamer]

It should be said that the reason Sega went for quadrilaterals rather than triangles is because at very low polygon counts it quads can look smoother than triangles. The problem is that quads are more limited when it comes to lighting and transparency. GameHut explains this well in his video on Sonic R and why Travelers Tales wrote a custom render engine to force the Saturn to do triangles.

[@orderofmagnitude-TPATP]

With regards to fighters on Saturn I already mentioned last bronx Its in high resolution all round and has ceilings using vdp2. And of course virtua fighter 2 has high resolution thats even higher than the original model 2 board.

[@maroon9273]

Last Bronx is the best fighting game that pushed the system to its limits alongside final fight revenge, dead or alive, and fighting vipers/fighters megamix.

[@orderofmagnitude-TPATP]

@@maroon9273 final fight revenge? Ooh dunno about that one. Dead or alive was a good one- especially compared to the PlayStation. I so wished fighters meganix went hi res but I understand why not as it was based on the fighting vipers engine as opposed to the vf2 engine.

[@maroon9273]

@@orderofmagnitude-TPATP final fight revenge regarding the characters polygons.

[@orderofmagnitude-TPATP]

@@maroon9273 if that's your opinion- sure... myself I feel the other games mentioned have way better models personally. But I respect your opinion.

[@ENiceGeo]

@@maroon9273 I think D-Xhird pushed the limits a bit further with graphics but it also had to do a lot of sacrifices to pull it all off on the Saturn.

[@System.10]

I was just thinking about this video idea the other day, can't believe you actually made it! It's awesome seeing you explain these effects in that signature way.

[@pharmedutainment]

I love this genre of video in general, and this was a terrific list of Saturn games to discuss

[@Sharopolis]

Thanks!

[@GVGINU]

I really would love to see someone do homebrew for the Saturn and see how far they can really push it.

[@Sharopolis]

Thank you! I'm going to try for the PlayStation next.

[@Jabjabs]

Look up youtube user XL2. They have been doing homebrew on the Saturn for a while now and the things they are doing is wild! They have a game that they are working on that is nearing Unreal Tournament level - includes real time environment reflections of the weapons. You know, things the hardware technically couldn't do. ;) It is great to see. The Saturn technically should have been able to run circles around the PS1. But ease of development will trump theoretical performance anytime.

[@ThePolicenaut]

As someone else mentioned take a look at hellslave ,we never got to see the saturn at it's full potential

[@jc_dogen]

a bunch of people make saturn homebrew nowadays. look up the segaxtreme saturn anniversary showcases

[@BeefJerkey]

I knew very little about this console before, so it was interesting to hear you explain a bit about how the graphics chips work. As usual, nice video.

[@satan2k]

The Issue with wipeout engine, they just did a raw port. The subdivision on the tracks you see on wireframe, were done for the playstation, to mitigate the warping effect you had on the affine textures. Something which was unnecessary for the Saturn due to the completely different drawing method. So they could have reduced the poly amount of the track and achieve better rendering speed. But still, despite the fact the saturn was complicated and overengineered, they achieved a decent port. With a bit much more love, I'm sure 30fps was achievable.

[@RyRyTheBassGuy]

I wonder what engine Tantalus used for their ManxTT port they did right before Wipeout 2047? That game actually ran well. I assume they just weren't given time to do either Wipeout justice.

[@JoeDangIt]

I really like how those quads look in wireframe, wouldn't look nearly as retro-futuristic if they were triangles.

[@GGigabiteM]

The Saturn hardware is an extension of Sega's earlier sprite based arcade hardware, and can only draw quads and not traditional triangular polygons. This is why games on the Saturn always have the boxy appearance, because everything is made up of quads. You can draw a pseudo-triangle on the Saturn by moving one of the vertexes of a quad to overlap with another vertex, but this is inefficient and causes texture mapping problems. The only way to have true triangular polygons is to write your own software renderer on one of the SH2s and DMA the data to the frame buffer of one of the VDPs. This is extremely inefficient though and only has a limited number of uses. Some games did do this, like Sonic R for the environment mapped sonic head on the menu.

[@DJ_POOP_IT_OUT_FEAT_LIL_WiiWii]

@@GGigabiteM most games today use quads for modelling and that has nothing with boxy look

[@illiteratedino]

I hope you'll do a deep dive into the DS someday. The DS's 2D and 3D capabilities are fantastic. The 2D is like a handheld Neo Geo and the 3D is a cross between N64 and PS1. The 3D games are silky smooth compared to the N64 and PS1.

[@Sharopolis]

I really want to do the DS! I want to make sure I've got a good grasp on 3D graphics before I go into it, but it sure is an interesting system!

[@espfusion]

@@Sharopolis If you have questions about DS feel free to PM. Not sure how the currently available emulators are with debug features, maybe potentially could rig up something for that too if it helps.

[@illiteratedino]

@JM Coulon I heard the 2D hardware on the DS was basically the GBA x 2. It was able to handle Metal Slug 7. Even SNK had to move to the Dreamcast based arcade hardware for Metal Slug 6.

[@sloppynyuszi]

@JM Coulon I think the DS was innovative in its form factor, but when it came to graphics it had nothing on the PSP that came out at the same time. They both launched with Ridge Racer, and the PSP was a generation ahead. Even the GBA, it was around as powerful as a 32X, and the fact that the PSP 3 years later basically jumped a generation and a half, shows Nintendo weren’t pushing anything and were just releasing the bare minimum people would buy. The technical limitations didn’t stop great games being made, but neither Nintendo was pushing graphics.

[@crestofhonor2349]

The nice thing about the DS was it had a really good mix of both 2D and 3D games and plenty of games that mixed the two very well. It also had some really nice sprite work on it

[@inceptional]

I'm pretty sure the N64 was really good for avoiding any kind texture warping and the like because of the particular way it handled all that stuff.

[@orderofmagnitude-TPATP]

Anti aliasing

[@PlasticCogLiquid]

Yeah, perspective correction was built into the hardware

[@tsvtsvtsv]

before the dreamcast i think the n64 was easily the most robust 3d console hardware out there. it rendered things far more accurately than the ps1 or the saturn were able to and as a result, objects on the n64 tend to feel much more solid and weighty. of course, sony had already more or less proved that it's worth it to dump things like perspective correction and anti aliasing in favor of a higher polygon count and a higher frame rate - not to mention a comparatively massive amount of storage space. the only really fast game i know of on n64 is f-zero and it pulls that off by drastically simplifying the visuals (though it's really not a bad looking game)

[@inceptional]

@@tsvtsvtsv The N64's main problem was the low texture quality due to lack of memory and the like, and also that it was actually capable of apparently less polygons than both PlayStation and Saturn, which shows at times with even more obvious pop-in in some games. But, outside of that, it was capable of some really clean and solid 3D visuals.

[@Jabjabs]

@@inceptional Nintendo's Technical Requirement meant that developers HAD to use texture filtering, anti aliasing and mip mapping. The priority was image quality over performance. Thus the blurry look of everything. Theoretically the N64 should be able to move approximately 3-4 times more polygons than Ps1 but the image quality requirements dragged it well below Ps1 at times.

[@inceptional]

Apparently, when pushed to its limits, the Saturn can actually show quite a bit more textured polygons than the PlayStation, and even do proper transparency too, so it's possible that the Saturn version of WipEout could have had an even better draw distance and proper transparency. It even has a high-res mode that could have maybe been used here too. Shame that didn't happen.

[@thefurthestmanfromhome1148]

It uses Quads though not 3-sided polygons 🤔

[@BubblegumCrash332]

Must have been the 8 Cpu's in the Saturn lol. Imagine being a programmer getting your hands on a Saturn dev kit. And being told you have 6 months to learn and create a game for your boss

[@freddiejohnson6137]

But when there is no software that ever proves that all it is at the end of the day is a theory made up by people who claim they know something could do all this stuff because they looked a bunch of numbers. The fact is it probably couldn't have done all of those things at once will keep a good speeds and frame rate.

[@maroon9273]

The only problem with wipeout 2098 and xl is the choppy framerates and gameplay compare to the ps1 which has smooth framerates and gameplay including better lighting.

[@athos5359]

@@maroon9273 sonic r runs at ful30fps with more quads on screen than wipout xl plus gouraud shading so what is possible yah.

[@GiuseppeGaetanoSabatelli]

The Wipeout and Sega Rally discussion really goes to show how much of a flex F-Zero X was. Rock Solid 60 fps.

[@funkydmunky1]

The best, as such good research but your comical timing and knack of voice narrating make your vids a pure pleasure to watch. MB/s fun!

[@DarthEquus]

1:24 I own the Japanese Saturn version of Wipeout XL/2097 and all the tracks are by Tim Wright/Cold Storage, not the licensed ones from the PS1 version. Was this the case with the European release?

[@DeathMetalDerf]

Waking up to a new video on a Saturday morning? Yes, please!! I used to be a HUGE Saturn fan boy, so this one's hitting me right in the nostalgia!

[@RevDrCCoonansr]

Fun fact: Croc was originally designed for the Nintendo N64 as a Yoshi title. Nintendo hated it so much they cancelled it for their inhouse version and they were forced to release Croc instead of Yoshi. Hard to control with a horrible story line, you can see that Croc was a tech demo turned into a game almost immediately however it is that very thing that made it look so good. The devs did their top work for the time on it and the game took full advantage of the Saturn. Most didn't. While this game was released on all platforms I loved it at the time as there was no 3D Sonic game on Saturn like Mario 64 on the N64 and Croc played like a Nintendo game. Picking up Rupees and squashing enemies with a butt slam.

[@slashrose3287]

Croc is a top programming work, with it's SCU DSP usage together with dual SH2 available. Argonaut Games was a skilled yer prolificent developer at the time, the one which developed SNES SuperFx chip btw

[@Illuminacent]

Just found your channel, amazing vids mate, keep up the good work! :) Still regret to this day to sell my mega drive n saturn. But got atleast the mega drive collection on steam :)

[@Sharopolis]

Thank you!

[@Myako]

Yet another thoroughly informative and entertaining video from you, Sharopolis. 👏🏻👏🏻💪🏻💪🏻

[@Sharopolis]

Thank you!

[@gfdgdfgdfgdfggfdgdfgdfgdfg9709]

Burning Rangers looks amazing. A lot of textures and lighting effects. Almost looks like a dreamcast game.

[@JohnnyWednesday]

I'm so excited I've paused to make a sandwich - let's do this!

[@Sharopolis]

Hope you enjoyed it! Nice to see you in the comments again, thanks for your support!

[@RevDrCCoonansr]

Oh dude I LOVE YOU! The Saturn and the 3DO are my FAV consoles....

[@8bpianoplayer]

The Saturn is my favorite system I've never had a chance to own. Collecting for it now is nigh on impossible, but what a system it is.

[@Disthron]

So, if I'm not mistaken, the 2 chips in the Saturn were meant to do different jobs but still for 3D. One was meant to do the 3D polygon calculations, and then devs were supposed to use that info in the 2D chip to transform the textures, using aphine transforms to wrap them over the 3D polygons. My understanding is that a LOT of developers tried to force the textures through the chip specialized for polygons because that's what they were used too and it didn't work out too well.

[@mistersomaru]

Early on, the Playstation games looked pretty bad too, but got better as devs got more used to the hardware and how to push it to the limits. The Saturn was going in that direction too, but it was sadly discontinued. I can only imagine what graphics it could have pushed out by even more savvy devs if it had the same life as the PS1. I still want to see some ambitious crazy people develop a brand new game for the console, pushing it to the absolute limit,

[@chattingesque372]

It wouldn't be a true Saturn game if it wasn't made under the limitations of the time

[@mistersomaru]

@@chattingesque372 if it runs on original Saturn hardware, I'd consider it a real Saturn game. I'd even permit the RAM expansion to be used. It's an addon, sure, but was designed for the Saturn.

[@alunjones3860]

The reason why the lighting on the Saturn version of Quake, was better than the PC version, was because it ran at a higher colour depth.

[@LateToTheBeardParty]

Games to checkout: X-Men Vs Street Fighter Panzer Dragoon Saga Virtual On Shining Force 3 Radiant Silvergun Silhouette Mirage

[@willrobinson7599]

Been waiting for this one

[@AcornElectron]

Capable of a lot and yet incredibly difficult to take advantage of. Keep up the good work and, as always, stay safe!

[@COLOFIDUTI]

always loved how dragon force and those hundreds of simultaneous sprites on the screen.Also burning rangers and real time lighting effects

[@thepld]

It's good to see you just slamming into walls in Wipeout, because that's what happens whenever I haven't played it in a while

[@maroon9273]

Also Olympics games, final fight revenge character polygons/rendering, dead or alive and world series baseball 98 pushed the Saturn to its limits.

[@deanoeaglet3546]

Awesome channel and vid mate😀

[@jamiewarin167]

Your videos are always top quality man

[@Sharopolis]

Glad you like them! Thanks for watching!

[@BubblegumCrash332]

Oh boy I've been looking forward for this one👍

[@jimmyryan5880]

I had a mastersystem, megadrive and dreamcast. I didnt hear about the saturn until talking to a friend about a dreamcast game. Their marketing should be shot.

[@rabbiyohanan6823]

To this day the Saturn is my favorite console.

[@irritated_name]

I've been thinking about the Sega Saturn all day, lately I really want one Perfect timing bro

[@mistersomaru]

get one. that's the easy part. getting the games? hoh boy, as a Saturn owner, there's a lot of expensive and rare games for the console, but I won't mod the one I have, I've had it since I was a child.

[@Judex1963]

@@mistersomaru you could get the satiator if you don't want to mod it, it works perfectly

[@mistersomaru]

@@Judex1963 Hm. I've looked into it, bit spendy, but probably worth it in the long run, especially for the games that are just stupid expensive, or the ones I have that don't work anymore, like Sega Rally, or Dark Savior.

[@Judex1963]

@@mistersomaru It is expensive, but it's such an awesome piece of tech. And you're right, if you want to play the rare and expensive games on original hardware, it's not such a bad deal.

[@Emotion_Engine]

The Saturn is one of those consoles I know so little about. Even with consoles I don't have, I have a basic knowledge about em and their famous games but not really the Saturn! I only played a Saturn once at a friend of my moms house. Her son had a Saturn with clockwork knight. Had such a good time. Never really saw him again. Hope he's ok

[@Xilefian]

Depth culling is different to pop in, depth culling is using a depth buffer to reject shading rendered pixels. Saturn (and PS1, at that) didn't have a depth buffer Pop-in is just called pop-in, there's no culling happening, it's just not loaded the next chunk of the level until you progress far enough to trigger it

[@Sharopolis]

OK then I stand corrected. That's fair enough!

[@espfusion]

@@Sharopolis Semantics maybe but I personally think using depth culling to describe distance-based rejection w/o a depth buffer is totally fine too.

[@maded2]

how did you switch off foreground and only shows the background in Fighting Vipers? as I've a saturn that only shows the background of the game for some reason.

[@oldschoolsaturn7020]

Great video! Last Bronx is the most technically impressive 3d fighter on the Saturn in my opinion. Especially the indoor arenas. Runs in a higher res than Fighting Vipers with very impressive backgrounds!

[@schtive81]

Pretty sure Fighters Megamix on the Saturn also uses the Fighting Vipers game engine. So, it looks comparable to Fighting Vipers.

[@yasminesteinbauer8565]

The fact that the Saturn's horsepower surpasses the PS1 and yet the framerate in Wipeout is lower than on the Playstation doesn't exactly testify to the fact that it pushed the limits. Especially when it comes to PS1 conversions, the developers have often worked very lazily. Games often only use one of the Saturn's two main processors or ignore the possibility of displaying real transparency etc. because it's easier.

[@ENiceGeo]

Wasn't the reason early Saturn games used only one processor was because of issues with the devkits that Sega provided to developers? They had no choice. And transparency would also tax the system if used, so if the game is struggling to begin with then adding transparencies would just tank it. Most of the blame I'd say lies with Sega themselves in their design of the Saturn and with the resources they gave (and lack thereof) to game developers.

[@yasminesteinbauer8565]

@@ENiceGeo Well, since some games made better use of the hardware, it was obviously possible. It was only more complicated because the Saturn had not only two processors but also two video processors and you had to plan for the interaction of all these chips. Even today there is enough PC software that doesn't use all processor cores because it's easier that way. But there are Saturn games that show that it is possible to use complex 3D scenes and transparency (Panzer Dragoon, Burning Rangers, Sonic R, ...). I agree with you: The main problem of Saturn was its complexity and the lack of developer support. Sony, on the other hand, made it as easy as possible for developers. And developers shied away from the effort (and the resulting costs) of maxing out the complicated (and worse-selling) Saturn.

[@SpinThwomp]

"Mario kart for the jilted generation" as a Mario kart fan and a prodigy fan, well, now I NEED to get it

[@RetroSegaDev]

I wondered how long it would be before you braved the Saturn! Mission accomplished I'd say 👍

[@simonrobinson1566]

Thanks for the video! I'm not sure that there were ever any true 'limit-pushing' games on the SS, because I don't think it was ever popular enough for developers to get the necessary experience programming for it, and there was never that need to push it to compete with other, newer, systems late in its life, like the PS1 or MD, because it died so soon. There were some overacheiving graphical titles though, mostly made by developers a couple of games in.

[@nickbond6447]

Agree, more impressive software is starting to appear in home brew scene

[@jedgrahek1426]

So the Saturn can do Mode 7... but not transparencies. I like to imagine that Sega's head engineer was just like "Transparencies are for THE WEAK" after so many Megadrive developers complained to him about it lol. edit: Yes, a video about all the great 2D Saturn games would be wonderful. Also, that trick you described that Burning Rangers uses to achieve transparencies is really clever, and sounds like it could have been very versatile had it been figured out earlier on in the system's life and become standard practice for Saturn programmers. It's a shame that the system didn't exactly have the same time and attention to develop those kinds of tricks as most systems got. I have very nostalgic memories of the Saturn despite never owning or even really playing one: someone I didn't know who attended my anime club (LOL!!!) back in high school in the 90's, would often bring his Saturn and the latest Japanese import games and play it with his friends in the hours before everyone got there and we started watching Ranma1/2 and Evangelion and Escaflowne... Mononoke Hime on Laserdisc totally untranslated as soon as it came out in Japan, that was so awesome... End of Eva... lol anyway... it was always really neat to get to see Vampire Savior (wasn't there like a RAM expansion like the 64 had, that made certain games like that better?), Grandia, Panzer Dragoon Saga, etc, when they were brand new. God damn why must that be so long ago...

[@CJPike83]

Shining Force 3 and Fighters Megamix ! Both are great 3d games. The 2d games were amazing too !

[@Cwiiis]

Love your videos, but I have to take issue with Wipeout being a demonstration of pushing the Saturn's limits... It's pushing the Saturn in a way, but only because it isn't really taking good advantage of the Saturn's architecture. The sub-division of nearby geometry to counteract affine texture warping isn't nearly as necessary on the Saturn with its quads vs the Playstation with its triangles and is a big waste of resources. It's also very disappointing the lack of VDP2 usage for effects, resulting in pretty rubbish-looking stippled transparencies. Given you mention Sonic R later, this is an odd choice! Happy to see Burning Rangers in there though, definitely the Saturn's most impressive, released game and one of my favourites :) If you're looking for impressive 3d fighting games on the Saturn that top Fighting Vipers, there are a few choices depending on what you want... The obvious one is Fighters Megamix, which uses the same engine and has the same features, but a huge wealth of content on top - not really any more technically impressive, but a much more impressive game on the whole. I think Virtua Fighter 2 is more impressive than Fighting Vipers really, with similar geometric detail but a higher resolution that still looks great today (though you miss the lighting). Another one worth mentioning is Last Bronx, which runs in a similarly high resolution to VF2, but has slightly more complex backgrounds and neat weapon-trail effects. Dead or Alive bares mentioning too. Quake is indeed an extremely impressive port for the time - it's very much worth checking out XL's homebrew 'Hellslave' though - kzbin.info/www/bejne/rovTkmN3d9espsU - even more impressive than Quake, though with the benefit of many more years of accumulated knowledge and no time pressure of course!

[@64kram]

Did the Saturn version of Wipeout 2097 have licensed music from The Prodigy, Daft Punk and Chemical Bothers? I thought it only had Cold Storage tracks?

[@donalcrowley7682]

Your right it only had Cold Storage sound tracks.

[@RandSilva79]

I love Fighting Vipers, but i think that Virtua Fighter 2 and Last Bronx looks better!

[@PlasticCogLiquid]

The Panzer Dragoon water effect cracks me up, once you notice how it's done you can't un-notice it. It was a really cheap effect and the water texture sits underneath everything. They literally modelled the "reflections." EDIT( Oh hell, you mentioned all that, sorry) If you play the PC version it has a Low Detail mode that makes it easier to see how it's done too. You're the only person I've ever heard talk about the water effect, nicely done good sir

[@Jabjabs]

To add on - there is even more to the water effect. It is a great example of how to nudge the scale line rendering of VP2 to create the ripple effect. Essentially as it is being rendered to the frame buffer, you just nudge the reference to the line of data to render up and down so that it distorts the output. It is the same why you could get some warping effect on the SNES without the need for scaling. Also the whole Saturn cannot do transparency is half true. Saturn could do 8 levels of transparency intensity. Only it could not be on surfaces with alpha channels or with any kind of shading. You could not do it arbitrarily on any surface. There are many titles that could have used this effectively but they did not. It was not thoroughly documented and the technical specs of engines are usually locked down early in development back then.

[@Fuuntag]

13:00 writing was on the wall by the time Vipers hit but it really was a great crescendo for what fighting games achieved on the Saturn visually.

[@Leo-xh8pp]

Great video ! I subscribed to the channel! Greetings from Brazil! 👏👏👏👏

[@Sharopolis]

Thanks for the sub!

[@chickenbites8877]

Sega Saturn may have floundered in the west, but it was a HIT in its native Japan, hence the awesome library of import titles.

[@BuzzaB77]

Wipeout didn't get the licenced soundtrack on Saturn though. those songs were on Sony labels (of course)

[@fuzz11111111]

@7:55 and now I know which fighting game the Black Mirror episode Striking Vipers was trying to emulate (I'd assumed it was tekken or something as I'd never heard of this game until now).

[@elmariachi5133]

Why is Panzer Dragoon's radar in the upper right using real transparency in your video, while in other videos I have seen it is using mesh transparency? Is it different because of emulator settings? What's the status in real hardware? (Compere here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/omfOY3Z6hNd5Z7c) Edit: I just saw it actually changes depending on the level. So they tried to get most out of it ..

[@crestofhonor2349]

When it co es to the Saturn I’ve always preferred the look of its 2D games which often had some of the best sprite work and animation next to the neo geo and PS1 during that time. It was incredible in the games that used it

[@3DSage]

I love seeing games that push the limit!

[@mode7scaling3]

no radiant silvergun? it had amazing graphics/scaling effects, on top of such great music

[@bengregg2632]

2:53 - Regarding Wipeout's wireframe, it's really surprising to see the track polygons get subdivided* when the player gets close. Never seen that done in an early 3D racing game and it makes me wonder what the reason behind it was, as the extra polygons aren't being used to make those track segments smoother as far as I can tell. Maybe it was a method to reduce texture distortion by adding more edges. ...or maybe there aren't extra polygons and those extra squares are something to do with the physics/programming, I don't know. * - For those not familiar with 3D modelling, "subdivision" refers to cutting up mesh faces by a factor of two, so subdividing a single quad ("square polygon") would cut it into 4 quads in a 2x2 arrangement, and further subdivision would cut those 4 quads into 16 (in a 4x4 arrangement).

[@Cwiiis]

They are being subdivided, but the reason originally was to avoid the affine texture warping on PS1 - I did work experience at a games company when I was young that had an ex-Studio Liverpool artist that spoke to me about some of the tricks they used to get around the PS1's limitations, that being one of them (he also gifted me a press copy of Wip3out, super nice guy!) The Saturn still has affine texture warping, but it's not nearly as noticeable with quads in this kind of situation, so I'd say it's a bit of a waste of resources here and they should've cut that (or changed the sub-division size) to try to make up 30fps. The whole thing is a disappointing port in my humble opinion - using stippled rendering instead of VDP2 (or even VDP1 with axis-aligned sprites...) to achieve transparency really harms the look of the game.

[@BleakVision]

No transperency was just mind boggling. Even my 11year old self could see this deficiency clear as day.

[@gamecomparisons]

Fun fact, as far as I can tell Ghen War is actually the first fully 3D First Person Shooter. It's not a bad game by standards of its genre comparison with other early 3D efforts either. But holy cow do people like to repeat what they've read online about Ghen War. Then there's also Black Fire, check out Scorched Planet from Criterion, especially the Matrox Mystique optimized version for comparison. It has always been obvious to me that the Saturn hardware engineering was targeting better than "Magic Carpet" style PC gaming, while being arguably capable of porting the much more expensive Model 2 hardware Arcade titles at the same time. I think Sega's engineers achieved this handily, the internet is always wrong.

[@ENiceGeo]

Ghen War also had one of the earliest examples of destructible terrain in a 3D game. It was a feature the developers carried over from their work on Racing Aces for the Sega CD, a 3D airplane racing game.

[@gamecomparisons]

Racing Aces was such a good game. I always wished they updated it on Sega CD or Saturn.

[@G.L.999]

Panzer Dragoon Zwei is kinda what I would imagine StarFox 64 2(if one were to have been made in an alternate timeline) would play like!

[@Sinn0100]

I think your grasp on the Sega Saturn's graphical capabilities is quite good. I wouldn't worry about some PC armchair "expert" says at all.

[@Sharopolis]

Thanks!

[@Sinn0100]

@@Sharopolis You're welcome! I love your explanation on the Saturn and Mode 7. They Mode 7'ed the shit out of everything. I will say that the Sega Genesis can actually do every single effect the Snes could do including Mode 7 through software. I know, I know that's cheating but they did actually do it in quite a few games.

[@johneygd]

The saturn was indeed a powerful system.

[@protocetid]

needs the homebrew Unreal port

[@JamesChessman]

Perfect topic

[@JMFSpike]

28:44 It's actually about double that, somewhere between 1,000-1,100 games.

[@sb6482]

every Saturn video on youtube always causes anger to resurface regarding Sega’s obsession with 3D fighting games and arcade conversion instead of giving the megadrive fans sequels to their beloved games and/or sophisticated adventure games like the playstation had. No Sonic platform game on the Saturn! ridiculous

[@turrican4d599]

Man, you hit every wall in Wipeout XL! 😂

[@livefreeprintguns]

Her: I'm hornt af. Me: TEXTURED POLYGONS ARE REALLY QUITE REMARKABLE, EVEN IN THE SEGA SATURN DAYS!

[@danielbenton4977]

Last Bronx was probably the better graphically impressive game on Saturn, it even ran at a higher resolution if I remember correctly.