Games Where You're NOT the Main Character

[@LucOfArcadia]

a lot of people didn't like it, but Pokemon Sun/Moon fell into this category of storytelling: you, the player character, is helping Lillie keep Cosmog safe while also helping her grow as an independent person-- something she wasn't afforded while under the heel of her possessive mother who was treading down a dangerous path. The story you play involved your progress towards becoming the champion of Alola, but the entire storyline centered around being a role model for Lillie's growth. A lot of players didn't like that Sun and Moon didn't feel like OUR story as the player, but that's what made it stand out: it was about our impact on other people, that helps other people achieve their goals and allows us to support them while they grow.

[@ItsChevnotJeff]

It was also the case in Ruby and Sapphire, as you are instead the rival helping the mc grow through challenging him(or him challenging you), you even help him catch his first pokemon, a Ralts, whereas in every other game the rival gets their first pokemon before you.

[@yohhh6715]

Don't forget my man Hau and his malasada arc and lore

[@yohhh6715]

​@@ItsChevnotJeff yeah this is also the case with Hau really based of gen 7

[@werewolfwebsite]

that's why it's my favourite pokemon game ahah

[@VermilionRen]

​Hard agree, the story is only rivaled by Black & White's and both are excellent and Pokémon's best from main titles.

[@SamuelSmith-x7v]

One of the games where the idea that you are not important is MOST implied is a game called “Rain World”. Instead of being some great hero, you are just a piece of a great ecosystem, I would really recommend.

[@abcdef-mz7gf]

Spore

[@acorngnome]

Five pebl

[@Its-a-me_Z]

omg yeah now that you mention it

[@TrixterTheFemboy]

looks mon

[@pixelmightexist]

sevn san

[@Brackets_Guy]

6:01

[@stuffie5175]

YIPPEE!

[@jokiejook8659]

47 friends, perhaps?

[@Brackets_Guy]

@@jokiejook8659

[@jokiejook8659]

@@Brackets_Guy You reacted in 10 minutes! How?!

[@Brackets_Guy]

@@jokiejook8659

[@reubenbailey7491]

The achievements in Wandersong being tied to the hero and not bard is one of the coolest usages of achievements I have ever seen.

[@phasein5413]

And how you *ahem* "earn" them.

[@dbappio]

@@phasein5413 locking into audrey's pov for the first time and getting barraged with achievements will never not be funny to me

[@balta8520]

@@dbappio Maaan, I missed out on this by playing on the itch version

[@Aiiml3ssTM]

I genuinely will likely pick up the game after hearing that one statement!

[@2-bit567]

@@Aiiml3ssTM It's a great game!

[@jalapenoofjustice4682]

A great book that does a similar thing to Wandersong is "the rest of us just live here". At the start of every chapter is a little snippet of a grand fantasy adventure, but the bulk of the novel is spent following a group of regular people who are only occasionally affected by the magical goings-on of the setting.

[@munjister177]

Really? You know the title?

[@Sebastian-zr2uv]

They said it was called 'The Rest of Us Just Live Here' ​@@munjister177

[@Schlorb-Lord-of-Schlirb]

Its called "The rest of us just live here" you really have to work on your reading comprehension

[@munjister177]

@@Schlorb-Lord-of-Schlirb oh 😅 I didn’t realise that the title was in quotes…

[@Schlorb-Lord-of-Schlirb]

@@munjister177 Happens to the best of us

[@firenzarfrenzy4985]

If 'video essay' needed a demo video, this would be it. You picked some excellent case studies and your movement from topic A to B was seamless as the significance of the perspective character grew with each successive example. Wandersong looks like a fascinating game for something so unassuming with it's simplistic design charm, but then again there are a notable number of small indie games that have made huge impacts, a few that rival AAA games. Calling the instinctual videogame protagonist problem solving path is a masterful design. The nonviolent concept traceable back to games like Undertale if not older titles I'm not aware of. Overall seeing games, or rather stories from the non central lens is in of itself such a huge boosting factor to a game being interesting and you showed that well.

[@lisandruh]

had this same thought about the perfect video essay

[@i_am_a_dot]

Footnote: It was more than a little surreal to be working on a video that features Hi-Fi Rush while the studio behind it got unceremoniously shut down. I really hope the talented team that made it will be able to carry on under a new banner. Hi-Fi Rush is a true gem of a game, the sort of project that I wish more major publishers would take a chance on. I’m glad we got the game we did, though. It will continue to bring joy to those who discover it.

[@tfordham13]

I'd say the playable character in hi fi rush is the story protag he is the main character of the games story and that peppermint is the main character of the back ground story

[@momsaccount4033]

@@tfordham13 What “back ground story”? The story Peppermint goes through *is* the story we follow. Chai *joins* Peppermint in her adventure. Sure they have individual characters arcs but they both follow the same goal, so they’re still going through the same overarching narrative.

[@itisALWAYSR.A.]

Aw I didn't know it had shut down. I remember when the game was new and yeah "vibes" totally captures the feel of it

[@HeroChao132]

Can we have more of these??? Moon RPG Remix is a lovely idea for this video to have a sequel to it, but I'd love to see even more games with characters where I'm not playing as the one that people think is the hero.

[@jarrellfamily1422]

Final fantasy 6 is a good example of not playing as the main character cause there are no main characters

[@bitter-unicorn]

In Stars and Time has a very interesting take on this same concept. The character you play as, Siffrin, is literally the /last/ member to join the world-saving party, a trap-defusing rogue who is along for the ride because, direct quote, they "have nothing better to do". Hell, the game's story itself literally takes place in the 48 hours before the party infiltrates the final boss dungeon, already having collected all of their magic doohickeys from around the world! This fact is the driving force between every single snowballing insecurity that forms the game's plot. Siffrin's biggest hangup is that they feel like they *aren't* important, aren't really "part of the team", and they're terrified of the grand saviors of the world leaving him behind as just a footnote in the legend. Siffrin /knows/ the story isn't about him, and it is ruining him mentally. It definitely hit me with a similar feeling to Wandersong in terms of premise and character building.

[@TearPotion88]

ISAT mention! I was going to comment this until I read yours! Siffrin is my favorite character in the game, honestly. They're so insecure yet goofy, and the game strikes this balance between fluffiness and soul-crushing angst. I don't have any better words to describe the experience.

[@CalamitousProphet]

Always nice to see another fan of In Stars and Time. I would say its a near miss for the topic at hand, but I will *always* support the game getting more attention and love, it deserves all of it. If the game was just about the hero's journey to defeat the big bad, I would 100% be on board. Sif is 100% not the leader of the party, nor the main protagonist in saving the world. However, that quest is merely the backdrop to the game. The game itself, the parts we get to see, who makes the decisions to shake the world... all of that directly and overtly revolves around Sif for the duration of the game. It can be a bit misleading, since Sif absolutely tries again and again to go along with what everyone says and be a good follower/party member, but in the end, (nearly, with one very notable exception) all major decisions that directly impact the course of the game are made by Sif entirely alone, devoid of the input of his companions. For all that though... Again, any time you get the chance to mention the game is a good one, so keep trying to get more to play it. hehe

[@deadlydoo]

ISAT MENTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣

[@AhmetKayraKartal]

IN STARS AND TIME MENTION!!!!!!!

[@oringinal_aqutilororinfors9667]

IN STAR'S AND TIME!!

[@Subcon_Twink]

Another great example is OneShot, a game where go figure you only have one chance, you "play" as an 8 year old kid named Niko who's the messiah of this broken down world, but everything is from your perspective, Niko's actions, the "antagonist" talks directly to you, even Niko and you have to make the final decision for Niko, as you can either A, shatter the sun and let Niko go home or B, replace the sun and have Niko there in that world for all of eternity. Majorly fits with the dueteragonist with you being the protagonist and then Niko being secondary.

[@number1-willstetsonsimp]

i like how he had to specify the cat in stray wasnt anthropomorphic

[@dead-claudia]

the absolute state of the internet

[@mako0818]

Furry pandemic is real and spreads wider amd faster than their anthropomorphic legs

[@ADIDADIDAS]

The fact he knew people would think it was anthropomorphic

[@akale2620]

Is it in some meta way or literally? Like its not a khajiit ?

[@killingtimeitself]

@@akale2620 i think the intention here is that it's literally just a cat, there is nothing abnormal about it, for all intents and purposes, this is just, a cat. The joke here being that it's rather redundant, and presumably delving into the anthropomorphic furry side of things as well.

[@conskript]

I'll be honest, if there was a Hitman game where you are a detective trying to find and apprehend Agent 47, I would play the shit out of it, can you imagine trying to check the head of every bald person to see if he's Agent 47 while trying and usually failing to keep your target alive, and then, JUST at the very end, when you think you finally have Agent 47 cornered, the camera pans around, putting you in charge of Agent 47 and a scene similar to the Funeral scene from Hitman blood money would play out.

[@glodieee_]

wow.

[@Katana314]

Something I'd want to make with unlimited resources is "Ace Attorney vs Silent Assassin" - a spinoff case in which Phoenix must unravel a mystery scene that has been attended by none other than a mythical, blended-in assassin Edgeworth is certain doesn't even exist.

[@worldgov3922]

"This lamp fell on the victim, and according to witnesses, there was an explosion just before the accident occurred. Surely, this must mean that the hitman lured the victim with a banana into the secluded room, threw a canister of explosive gas at the chandelier and shot it just as he entered the room in order to frame it as a freak accident."

[@ninjadragongamer6861]

I feel like this would work well as a multiplayer game as well. One person plays as the assassin, trying to kill the target, while the other player is the detective trying to find them first. Could be interesting

[@antoniogott]

@@ninjadragongamer6861 that is actually pretty close to the multiplayer mode of old Assassin's Creed titles, except everyone was assassin AND detective, each trying to kill their target (which is another assassin), being inconspicuous to not alert the target but also not to draw the attention of other assassin's who might be on the hunt to assassinate you. It was not considered to be very good, but I loved it.

[@lucasfonzaghi]

My Game Design bachelor’s thesis was on the what means to be a protagonist and what means to be a main character in games. Me and my group developed a game in which the story was about a princess that wanted to become the queen of a kingdom, but the player would control her brother that was not interested in the throne, although their father named him as the heir. The gameplay tried to reflect the dynamic, so the player (brother) would assist the princess actions from the shadows. Basically our idea was to answer through gameplay “who is the helper to the protagonist that works in the shadows in many other games?”. An example of what I mean is: at the start of Dark Souls, in which Oscar helps the player to scape prison by giving him the key to the cell, and later estus flasks. Weapons are carefully placed in the corridors that the player goes through, stairs and open gates lead to safer approaches for the player. Who does all that? Of course it’s the designer, but what about the diegetic explanation? Oscar. Oscar is not the protagonist, but what if Oscar was controlled by the player? So in our game, the princess would try to go through a linear level, but would face challenges she could not overcome alone. The player comes in and has an open world of possibilities to help her. Dropping the key from a hole above the cell, positioning a weapon right before an enemy encounter, maybe pushing boxes around to reveal alternative routes to the princess. It was an interesting concept. Unfortunately the game demo was in very raw state. The concept was doable in many different ways, but we had too big of an ambition and what we developed in the one year that we had was barebones a vertical slice of a mockup.

[@masonmaxwell5520]

What was your grade

[@RobinSyl]

This is a wild concept and I would love to see it come to fruition

[@dorothyv6428]

this sounds like a cool puzzle game

[@lucasfonzaghi]

@@masonmaxwell5520 8/10 It was hard to convince everyone to do their part. Especially because most of us worked at the same time. We were 7. Me and two other guys did 80% of the work. I worked on the game mechanics, level design (which included some programming), and art direction. Then we had one working on the programming and one working on the 3d character modelling and animation. Three other people tried to help by doing some art but they were very incompetent at it lol. The last person was responsible for implementing the sound design and ditched us at the last second so we had very simple implementation. No music, no proper sound effects, no voices. We did a 3d game and looking back now I think it was a bad idea. It was in Brazil, 2014. But the brazilian market was crap so I changed my carreer. I'm an ecologist nowadays. Ironically, I came to Sweden, which has an incredible game design market.

[@MasterGhostf]

@@lucasfonzaghi Your game would have worked better as a 2d platformer with the princess having an AI accomplish things, and the player assists them in accomplishing puzzles and dialoque.

[@jp3813]

0:36 I heard the same critique about the Arkham series: "If this game didn't have Batman, it would just be seen as generic." Uh... yeah, should there be a game before 2009 that had a protagonist who constantly glided around w/ a cape, climbed w/ a grapple gun, threw some ninja stars, drove around in a futuristic car, etc...; people would likely call that character a Batman ripoff. The entire gameplay is a collection of things that Batman does, which is why he's not swinging around and scaling walls like Spider-Man.

[@frontdoor3417]

woosh

[@jp3813]

@@frontdoor3417 This ain't a critique of the video, genius!

[@vacion610]

@@frontdoor3417 woosh

[@Ezdine_G8261]

@@frontdoor3417 remember when that was funny

[@Twisted_Code]

@@Ezdine_G8261 You do? For me it must've been a long time ago as right now I'm not even sure if I ever felt it was funny.

[@probablyphaded6180]

Another underrated game that fits this category is Gone Home. You play the eldest sibling coming home from college to find that nobody’s home. As you walk through the house, you learn how the lives of your family kept going after you left. The main character of this game is actually your little sister. You learn through notes, newspaper clippings, and pictures that your little sister has grown up and even fell in love. The ending is something that genuinely changed me as a person and had me sobbing like a baby.

[@eliasdailey3911]

I played that whole game early one morning and loved it

[@PurpleExorcist]

This reminds me of another game called "What Remains of Edith Finch" which has a very similar premise! It's a great game and remembering that makes me want to play the one you are talking about.

[@anonymityanonymous7476]

I remember starting up the game, seeing and hearing the vibes given off by the storm-enshrouded empty house, and closing the game because I was absolutely convinced it was a horror game (although I did continue it after looking it up and reading just enough to confirm that I was wrong about it).

[@vasconcelos7356]

​@@anonymityanonymous7476 bruhhhh do you not research what the category of a game is before playing it

[@illuminati_loves_pizza]

Well yeah, but that's pretty normal for walking sim games. I dont recall any game of that genre where the story is about the character you play. It's always all about uncovering the stories of other people.

[@walmart_pole]

Oneshot is a great example. In this game, the protagonist Niko wakes up in an unfamiliar world, having no idea what happened. Once they access the computer, it starts communicating not with Niko, but with YOU, the player, even going outside of the game window. It is later discovered that you are a god of this world, and Niko is the messiah. Being the messiah, Niko has to return the sun to save the decaying world, and, as the computer told you, you have to save Niko by helping them return home. You can't save both. *You only have one shot.*

[@CapnNapalm]

I think a perfect example is Rain World. The 3 base characters are pretty blank aside from wanting to find their family/sibling/perform it’s spoiler task. The world and characters around them are much more dynamic. Especially when playing the expansion, which takes place over lifetimes. The changes that happen to the characters though each slice of the timeline show how while each character is not the “main” one, the small impact they do have shapes the world for the ones that come after

[@Squabsss]

the main character IS the world and its so cool!!! i mean you could say the main character are the but i think they’re the antagonists in a way? because they’re the ones who force the world to change.

[@Chorsanoidka]

I mean, I think Arti IS the main character of her campaign, but outside of that, yeah

[@abcdef-mz7gf]

Planet theory The rain creature is insignificant because the planet is bigger and more interesting than them

[@lolfool866]

Rain World is literally the perfect example. The biggest impact out of all the campaigns you do is just restore power and memory to a robot. It's a story of just being a small part of an ecosystem, like being an ant. You can do different stuff but in the end the true main characters are the iterators, as they'll live on and progress the story while yours always comes to an end in a way that is not unique to that character whatsoever.

[@eglol]

I love that game. Funny, another cat

[@hgmd3284]

wandersong is criminaly underrated, nobody talks about it.

[@gastonschmugge9245]

Honestly, favorite game I've ever played.

[@davitucsonn2243]

it really brings something different to the table, i should check it out

[@TheOldEverglades]

agreed

[@Fishystyxx]

YOOOO I love wandersong!!

[@LloydGyan-i2e]

An amazing game that deserved more than it got.

[@mashedpotatoes4849]

Road 96 fits this. You don't play as a specific character. You play as multiple teens trying to escape a dictatorship while meeting many characters along the way, including Zoe, who is the closest to the concept of a main character. She has the documents that can put down the dictatorship. She joins the rebel group. She grows and learns along her journey (at least in theory, I personally don't think that really was shown too well). We play only as a vehicle for her and all the other characters' stories. The characters we play as is no different from us as we watch the events unfold

[@RexRex-n5t]

If the writing of that game was better sure, like Disco Elysium. Sadly it's not as good as it could be.

[@TheAwesomeDarkNinja]

One of the most underrated video games to pull this off was Oblivion. You're prophesied but you're not the hero. It's just told that you would be "there" for the big important event. Your goal is to make sure Martin Septim fulfills his role as the hero.

[@PeterOfPlanetEarth]

Disagreed. We are certainly the protagonist of the story. We drive the story and battle the enemies. Plot have some directive around us, but ultimately we are the legend - the exalted defender of Tamriel.

[@eno88]

​@@PeterOfPlanetEarth disagree with your disagreement. Martin literally becomes an avatar of Akatosh and defeats who? Oh, just the main baddie of the story.

[@goldenfiberwheat238]

@@PeterOfPlanetEarthMartin septim is the true protagonist who defeats the antagonist and saves the world. You’re just the errand boy

[@Lurkily_Esh]

I would disagree. I don't think Oblivion is the story of saving the world. Oblivion is the story of helping someone be a hero. Your character is the protagonist of the story Oblivion focuses on telling. The resolution of the story of saving the world is really just tying up loose ends, no different from "And this character went on to open a successful bakery." Your story isn't the most important story in that world, but I think that you are the driving character in the story Oblivion choses to tell about that world.

[@goldenfiberwheat238]

@@Lurkily_Esh delusional

[@LamanKnight]

As much as I enjoyed this video --- and I'm saying that as a former English major, and "professional" writer (i.e., it's not something that pays enough to make a living, but never mind that) --- I want to comment just want to thank you for the whole bibliography in the video description. A few of these are games I wasn't even aware of, and I wanted to look them up. It's really helpful to have all that information in one place, about what genre the games are, what game systems they're available on, and who the developers are, so I can look up the studios themselves. I don't know how many people actually read full video descriptions, but I wanted to let you know I appreciate the effort on this one.

[@ashkhri]

Give me names of what you write i want to check them out 💯💯

[@deli3151]

@@ashkhriyou a real one

[@tumultoustortellini]

If you want the name of some other stories that do basically the same thing. Here are some: Everyone loves large chests: You follow a mimic whose sole goals are the gathering shiny, eating people, and growing power. Despite his big impacts on the world, he always feels like a force of nature that just happens to have sentience more than anything else. Riskque warning though, some chapter are straight smut. It's a funny story, action packed as well. Vm meido has it for free. The wandering Inn: It's a classic fantasy story in principle, but has some isekai elements. Despite that, all (most, the vast majority) of the earthers are just some of the going-ons throughout the grand narrative. Some of them are important, but none of them demand control of the entire narrative the whole time. It even follows the fantasy-born characters just as much, so you never stay in one perspective for too long. Everyone's a player, basically. It's my favorite book series of all time, I give it high praises. It has it's own site, but if you want to start w/ the original story instead of the volume 1 rewrite (I prefer the original, even though the rewrite smooths out inconsistencies and plot holes, the orignal keeps the scope small, which I think makes the series so great, the ever-growing scope, it's up to you though) vm meido has the first couple of volumes there as well.

[@LamanKnight]

@@ashkhri Aww, thanks for your interest. Well, a lot of what I've been writing recently are uninteresting things like newsletters, formal communication, editing notes, technical instructions, that sort of thing. (That, and my personal journal.) Not only is most of that boring, but a lot of it isn't intended to be seen publicly. I also hate to say it, but a lot of my creative writing has just disappeared. I contributed to blogs that no longer exist, I submitted poetry that never got published, Facebook got rid of the Notes app where I'd written short stories, and even though I backed up copies of all my work, the hard drive I was storing them on broke. So, it's hard to find much of my writing that I have left. Oh, I also published a short novel once, but... it makes me angry to talk about it. (Let's just summarize: Amazon made sure I would receive 0% of whatever meagre profits that book made. So, I withdrew it from print.) It's been a long time since I've had the time, health, and energy to work on my own writing projects, but I should be able to pick some of those up again soon. One project I really want to finish (I'm about 40% done writing it) is a collection of "flash fiction" stories, with illustrations. I think that one has promise. Yes. Well. We'll see if anyone gets to read that someday.

[@namedrop721]

I dunno if you’ll read this but ‘professional’ is supposed to refer to the level of skill not the level of compensation. Perhaps you are the only one in all the land who can do what you do and what you do is requested as a service, that’s professional, even if they attempt to pay you a rat’s ass in exchange. In fact not a few stories are about supernatural forced pissed that humans tried to pull that crap on them. That’s not ‘kinda professional’ that’s just ‘poorly compensated’.

[@Axol0_0]

Ultrakill is like this. Gabriel, the archangel of heaven, has lots of involvement in the lore and in the game's current story. V1 is simply just a machine who entered hell to keep itself powered, but it does also trigger the events which affect Gabriel.

[@woahachannel]

I don't know... The "POV character that tells the story" would more likely be the terminals, right? They are alive, and they tell you about everything and every piece of lore that isn't mentioned in the cutscenes that okay at the end of each act. V1 and Gabriel are the 2 protagonists of the story, V1 being the influence that makes Gabriel get involved in the story at all, and Gabriel being the "antagonist" of sorts. But you don't play as a terminal. You play as V1. You play as the protagonist that causes the events that happen in the game, you don't see it happen, you make it happen. ULTRAKILL is, in fact, about *you.*

[@voxsouls]

@@woahachannel*You* learn more about the game itself through the terminals, but you are not the protagonist. Each act ends with a reading segment that focuses on Gabriel and his development as a character. As V1, *we* are the antagonist to Gabriel's story. We are quite literally playing as a plot device that initiates his developments, while V1 does not have any character development of their own. Even Hakita, the lead developer, has stated that V1 is not the protagonist of Ultrakill's story.

[@idioticlight]

@@woahachannel creator explicitly stated that youre not the protagonist of the story

[@woahachannel]

@@voxsouls my bad thanks for clarifying happy summer

[@joelgomez3702]

​@woahachannel if the story was about hell in it's entirety then v2 would qualify. But the actual lore and story focuses much more heavily on heaven itself, and the consequences of it being imperfect. The most notable thing about hell in the lore is that it's the thing that makes God abandon heaven. The acts are named after what Gabriel experiences. In act 1, infinite hyperdeath Gabriel sees these weapons massacre hell, then gets beaten because they are so strong. In imperfect hatred, Gabriel believes his hatred of the enemies of heaven is not only justified, but divine. But this is proven to be a lie, and he even starts to enjoy fighting V1 instead of hating him. Upon realizing this, Gabriel reevaluates his whole life and DOOMS HEAVEN TO DIE OUT. V1 is maybe the single best killer in all of ultrakill, but narratively he is just one of billions of robots and probably would have been replaced by V2 in the story if he disappeared, he doesnt matter he is just one in a tidal wave of robots. But Gabriel is completely changing the cosmology and may be dooming it to die forever.

[@hankboog462]

Ultrakill is another example of a unique protagonist structure, though it isn't complete yet. The player character, V1, is very unique in that, with the exception of the story of Gabriel, the story of basically every character it comes across is complete already. Minos already built the city of Lust, died, and had his corpse puppeted to destroy it. Sisyphus already tried to rebel against heaven, failed, and died while his followers were punished. Mankind is already dead as a result of its own hubris and jingoistic attitude. V1's only role is to finish them off. Its place in the narrative is more akin to the biblical flood than any actual character. This even applies to Gabriel, the one character whose story is still unfolding and I'd argue the protagonist. V1 is basically just a disaster in his story, the inciting incident, a terrible and unexpected thing that comes along, throws off the rhythm of his life, and causes him to reflect.

[@slipipipi7971]

Until we get some random twist, love that V1 is essentially more of a rouge force than a character

[@himothyfr6370]

how compelling

[@thedeliveryboy1123]

i remember a post somewhere stating that as V1, you play as the consequences of Ultrakill's story, how you're an inevitable aftermath of God abandoning hell (I unfortunately forgot everything else that was said lol). I love that description a lot and when i saw the title of this video i was hoping someone would mention Ultrakill

[@hankboog462]

@@thedeliveryboy1123 i like that point, though I personally see v1 and the machines in general as an inevitable outgrowth of endless wars rather than God's abandonment, hence the whole "the only way it could have ended" thing from the book on the earthmover

[@thedeliveryboy1123]

@@hankboog462 ah yeah that's fair (I wasn't thinking when writing the "god abandoning" part)

[@jacobgill298]

Papers please I would argue is a brilliant example of this, there is clearly a small story that the player only plays a tiny part in, meeting members who possibly are the protagonist

[@maxtube1952]

Jorji Costava is the best protagonist of all

[@gabyzz1331]

truee the character we play as is pretty much just a stepping stone for both organizations after all our true goal is to keep our family fed and healthy

[@your_independent_indian_416]

Wait wasn’t papers please a teacher game or am I getting the name confused

[@Gamer88334]

@CuppaSimsnStuff You basically play as a member of your country's Border Patrol. You take a look at people's papers, check for any discrepancies, let them in if there's nothing wrong, deny them entry or even detain them if they've broken the law. It has multiple endings too.

[@Oshroth]

No, your character is definitely the protagonist in Papers Please. Your actions are pivotal to the climax of the story and your character also has their own arc (they gradually lose their loyalty to Arstotzka and even consider escaping the country with their surviving family)

[@Squeezyness]

Final Fantasy X was the first game I played where the main character isn't the main character. Yuna is the hero of that story, but the narrative pretends Tidus is. It's not really the same though because you technically play as her in battles.

[@dirrdevil]

Tidus is still the main character. Tidus drives the conclusion of the plot and changes the whole dynamic of the quest.

[@Kaldrim72]

I think FF12 would be a better rep for this. All Vaan wanted to do is be is a sky pirate, even finding out the truth about his brothers death happens very early on. Almost everyone else in the cast has more story relevance than him, even the guest characters you get. Ultimately I believe it's Ashe's and Basche's story more than the others.

[@thedragonseye1210]

Wandersong is one of my all-time favourite games, and seeing it covered so well for the reason I fell in love with it is heart-warming. Stray became a top in my book for similar reasons too- focusing on the world around and how the narrative progresses and changes rather than pin-pointing the player character in the centre of it all. Seeing them both in a beautiful video that highlights the rich storytelling is amazing- Bravo!

[@i_am_a_dot]

I played Wandersong for the first time last year and it completely caught me off guard. I love how it takes a simple concept of pointing in a direction and expands it in so many creative directions. (Plus Miriam is great!)

[@lilyfae7197]

Sometimes I forget about it because of how little it’s mentioned, but then I see a reference every once in a while and remember how beautiful it was.

[@foggy8298]

Shout out to In Stars And Time for pulling off this concept fantastically. Amazing subversion of the "weirdo mysterious lategame party member" you find in older RPGs This is a coded message to get you to consider playing In Stars and Time, you see

[@cheddarcheese4159]

Glad someone mentioned ISAT so I don’t have to lol

[@Dialindenial]

YEAHHHH ISAT!!!! was thinking abt it the whole time I watched this

[@triggeredcheese5318]

Someone said it, yes!!!!

[@bitter-unicorn]

I just also commented about ISAT before seeing this comment. The more ISAT propaganda we have in this world the better

[@SunroseStudios]

YEA

[@goldenfiberwheat238]

Best example of this is oblivion. Martin septim is the hero who defeats the antagonist and saves the world. You’re just the errand boy. It’s Martin septims adventure. You’re just there to call him to adventure

[@bahamut256]

You are quite literally hailed as a hero in the game. You are the one who shuts down the portals, saves kvatch and defeats Cameron. You could not have picked a worse example if you tried.

[@RexRex-n5t]

Yeah okay, but he's still fighting all the battles and doing all the quests to build the legend that allows you to be king. Like, you wouldn't be king at all if it wasn't for what he did and the legendary name he created for you. You have to understand that this is a video game and that you are only doing menial tasks that he's made possible for you to do by being king.

[@bahamut256]

@@RexRex-n5t What quests, what battles? He squats in cloud keep the entire game and does absolutely nothing the until the literal last 5 minutes of the game. He’s closer to a magical maguffin or a deus ex machina than a hero.

[@tessweaver448]

@@bahamut256 being a hero doesn't make you the protagonist

[@tessweaver448]

Yeah man, I LOVED not being the main character in that game. It was so refreshing.

[@Darisprites]

I'd also say the game VA-11-Hall-A: Cyberpunk Bartending Action fits this bill. You play as an ordinary denizen in a typical cyberpunk dystopian setting. But instead of trying to topple the system, or battling any megacorps, you're serving modified drinks in a back-alley bar, witnessing the oddities of the world through those you meet. You only hear about the rumblings of a more expected cyberpunk plot in progress over reports in the news, and even meet a character adjacent to it. Of course your POV character and her friends *have* their own things going on in their own lives, but you're essentially playing as a "background NPC" in a larger world. (Which is also explored more in some of the developer's other games) It's ended up as one of my favorite VNs.

[@destroyernine4]

I thought about this too but I’d say it doesn’t quite fit since you’re more focused on the story of Jill and everyone around her and their interactions rather than what’s going on with the rest of the world.

[@EAcosplays]

Saw the title, Wandersong immediately came to mind, was overjoyed to see The Bard's silhouette. When I played and realized the achievements were tied to Audrey it absolutely blew my mind. It's great to see it get recognition.

[@gilberthayward]

i think raft is a good example the protaganists are the people in the notes you dont drive the story at all untill the very end.

[@Shadow-ck5vc]

Another game with similar ideas I'd love to hear you're thoughts on is One Shot, where you the player are explicitly a separate entity to anything within the game. The protagonist Nico is the only one capable of hearing you and you direct them through the game. the story is about Nico and the world, but you the player aren't Nico, you are helping them on their journey.

[@Gobbler.]

yay!!!

[@dr.cheeze5382]

@@Gobbler. Cat goober spoted!

[@kokainokoi]

i was so about to comment about oneshot.

[@Starry7863]

I can agree with this comment.

[@gabyzz1331]

agreed One shot is great

[@nevinmyers1245]

people don't talk about wandersong enough

[@DEFxRECON]

good.

[@nevinmyers1245]

bro's mad that people enjoy a game

[@TheTrytix]

First time I've heard about it. And I gotta say, what an interesting and well thought out narrative for a story. To think that all the achievements in the game is tied towards the protagonist of the game, and that the player ISN'T said protagonist, is quite a fun concept honestly. Sad I never heard about this before, but glad I did hear about it regardless.

[@fourtrifiveo4350]

yoo

[@pcalix17]

The game has been out for 6 years, has one of the few 10-star ratings I've seen on Steam, has a staggering 98% likability on Google, and was released on every major gaming platform... yet so few know of the game because so few have played it. The game is a harsh example of a developer making a spectacular game but, without proper advertising and marketing, so few know it exists.

[@its_catter]

I'm so glad to see more love for Wandersong, it is probably my favorite video game ever, and that's quite impressive considering it faces an insane catalogue of equally impressive games I've played

[@pemanilnoob]

The cat in stray made me cry from cuteness, b-12 made me cry from intense sadness

[@TheCollectiveHexagon]

you should watch To your Eternity, be prepared to cry profusely

[@pemanilnoob]

@@TheCollectiveHexagon why

[@giulianofatuzzo6963]

How is no one talking about the INSANE QUALITY of the video? You deserve a lot more

[@PhixonFire]

We might just be entering a video essay golden age with the emerging interest and talent that's showing up

[@psionicdreamer3302]

4:30 Camera does not = character: I can't help but, when people bring this pov point up, think of Markiplier's projects. Because it's true, often the camera is just that, a lens into a different world. The cameraman always survives memes only come from when you KNOW the person behind the camera/pov is real, either by voice or by active movement like the camera shaking its head yes or no. In all of Mark's projects, the camera is not JUST the audience. In ISWM you, everyone, are the captain of the ship. This is an incredibly important thing to the 'player' of these choose your own adventures as well as to the characters inside it. Your choices matter, and they also don't. And even with all the choices you CAN make at the end of each clip, the camera still does things that you DIDN'T choose, like the captains attitude or the way it conveys emotion. Not...entirely relevant to this video, but I think a very interesting addition to the topic of pov.

[@TheSpiderInUrWalls]

I loved stray, and it’s very clear at many points that you’re just assisting B-12 in their task. But like- cat, plus very heartwarming moments and emotion put into the game, even though none of the characters are human. All of that plus amazing visuals and storytelling really pull it together

[@Lurkily_Esh]

I think one of the critical elements in this is that the cat SPEAKS cat. Each twitch of the whiskers, brush against something, scratch, and twitch of the tail. They worked really hard (and it often goes unnoticed) to make sure that this cat spoke the body language of cats. It's one of the reasons cats are often hard to portray convincingly; they have so much subtle body language that it can be very hard to recognize what's important to capture when you represent them.

[@supportpossum5672]

On another but similar note, I love games like NieR: Automata and Outer wilds, Where you play a character that is undoubtedly important, but they’re really only vessels to portray the story of the world around you and force you to detach from your character to think about the world as a whole

[@ratdistributor]

Another good example is Underhero! It's a pixel art game where you play as one of the main villain's generic minions, but the sword of the (now-dead) hero guides you to fighting your old boss.

[@unbuckledspaghetti3730]

I feel like that doesn't quite qualify, because while you started out as not the main character you sorta became one.

[@fieratheproud]

Hmm, that's sitting in my Steam library unplayed right now... guess like I should change that

[@ratdistributor]

@fieratheproud I love the game so much, I definitely recommend it!

[@ratdistributor]

@unbuckledspaghetti3730 Yeah, that's valid!

[@Quandtuniverse]

Oh, leaving another comment just to add, thank you so much for including bespoke captions on your videos instead of just leaving it to autocaptions! I have a deaf friend who's a huge fan of Wandersong, believe it or not, because that game is fully accessible even with no audio (every sound also has a color and directional cue). Captions make a huge difference in being able to share videos like this with them, so, good job!

[@thefriendlyturtle2502]

This is a BEUTIFULLY edited video. The graphics, the animations - wow. I'm tired of youtube explainers with minimal effort but this is simply spectacular media. Good job mate.

[@apocalypseacealice5677]

Moon is another good example of this. Yes it’s a weird game but the character you follow isn’t the hero, you play a little boy who was sucked into the game. You go around the world to bring the love back so the world can heal from what the hero has done in his quest like helping monsters the hero attacked. It was from the 90s and only sold in Japan but it was recently translated and added to the switch eshop and I’ve loved it so far.

[@voyagerwitch]

i was gonna say, you cant talk about wandersong without talking about Moon RPG

[@elizabethk007]

This just reminded me of how Fire Emblem Awakening had Robin as the typical customizable MC but the story made it clear the main character of the game’s plot was Chrom and later Lucina

[@drumstyx9456]

This is even more apparent in one of my favorite all-time DLCs from that game, The Future Past. In that story, the main characters from the rest of the game are only there as a sort of deus-ex machina to save the children in an otherwise doomed future - Lucina and the other children of this alternate future are the main cast of this side story, you and your playable characters from the main game are only here to be the muscle that saves them from dying, and maybe give them a weird sense of closure by having their relatives from your timeline talk to them. It's a really lovely and fun concept, and the ending gave me chills

[@itrashcant7947]

I like it when games do that where you play your own character but help the actual main character in their story.

[@noaulery587]

This was an amazing breakdown, it really gave me a greater appreciation and understanding of this type of game play and story telling. Thank you 💛

[@mustardmustache2107]

wandersong mentioned i have been summoned

[@lilyfae7197]

There are dozens of us!!

[@floreamiblompson]

WE HAVE BEEN SUMMONED!

[@erinmorgansears2988]

@@lilyfae7197 DOZEEEEENS!

[@gabyzz1331]

AMEN

[@turtlefalcon5546]

Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney is another good example. The player is Apollo, but the main character is Phoenix Wright. Phoenix has been disbarred and is trying to get revenge on the person that caused that disbarment to happen, and he hires Apollo, a qualified lawyer, to help him do that job. Apollo doesn’t have much emotional investment in the actual story himself, and Phoenix doesn’t even tell him that much about it anyway. Eventually there is actually a section of the game where you play as Phoenix, but the majority of it is played as Apollo

[@pixelturtle5041]

didnt the creator want an apollo centered game? the game is great, but personally, i would have loved to see apollos personal story

[@GKMedoh]

​@@pixelturtle5041 Well Spirit of Justice kind of fits in that role I guess?

[@SoundGZ]

This is like saying the first phoenix wright game is about edgeworth and phoenix is a side character

[@turtlefalcon5546]

@@SoundGZ This comparison doesn’t really work. Edgeworth isn’t even on the same side as Phoenix for most of the game, and AA1 doesn’t really have an overarching story. Even when he is accused of murder he’s reluctant to allow Phoenix to defend him. Phoenix is the one who ropes Apollo into taking down Kristoph (even though Apollo doesn’t know it) and they’re on the same side the whole time In AJ they’re both the protagonist, but Phoenix is the one pulling the strings from behind the scenes

[@turtlefalcon5546]

@@pixelturtle5041 I would have as well but I think that they were trying to ease into having Apollo as the main protagonist. They switched writers after Apollo Justice though so that didn’t really happen

[@abadhaiku]

Another great and convoluted example of this is OneShot, where despite controlling Niko, _you_ are the point of view character and _he_ is the protagonist. It's so weird and cute and i love it

[@flamm.e]

Ultrakill is a decent example, you play as the narrative antagonist (V1) and Gabriel is the protagonist

[@sleepyhead856]

Good example.

[@86pp73]

V1 isn't even an antagonist, it's just an aimless machine of war doing what it presumably needs to do self-sustain (collect blood). The game never explicitly sets out an objective for V1, it just keeps moving downwards through Hell, defeating stronger and stronger enemies. For Gabe, V1 suddenly shows up one day, humiliates him, and inadvertently pushes his journey forwards. The two don't even interact outside their fights. V1 is more like Mr. Shakedown for the divine, than anything else

[@rustydusty0000]

@@86pp73 hes more like Kuze for Gabriel, just keeps getting back up after every defeat (cause V1 goes down really easily gameplay-wise)

[@benhall4766]

@@86pp73 dont be throwing around names like mr shakedown without a warning i almost had a panic attack with all the trauma that man caused

[@randompersonyoudontknow5763]

ULTRAKILL SPOTTED

[@weepingwillow1526]

Rainworld is a great example for this. You play as a "Slugcat" in an unforgiving and unfair world. You were sepperated from your family and are now forced to survive. In Rainworld at the end of each "Cycle" mass amounts of rain will fall and if you dont get to a shelter with enough food you will either be crushed or drown. Most the the creatures in Rainworld can not be killed and notice how I say creatures and not enemies because the way that the Ai was made makes it feel like you are in a living breathing ecosystem. As you get farther and farther in the game you learn more about your surroundings and get better at surviving but you never get very powerful or make a big effect on the world around you. You are just a lost slugcat looking for a way out

[@RealNefastus]

The problem with Rainworld not falling into this category is, there's no "story" therefore there's no protagonist from the story POV. Which means that by definition the protagonist is your current slugcat that you're currently playing. Just because you're not too powerful nor impactful on the world around you doesn't make this any less true. PS: There could be argument that you trying to survive is the story. In which case my statement would hold even more true.

[@Sadakorka]

@@RealNefastus fym theres no story? have you played it?

[@vasconcelos7356]

You're the protagonist tho

[@LostSwiftpaw]

​@RealNefastus Sure you can argue that Survivor's campaign doesn't have much of a story outside of surviving, but Monk and Hunter very much do. Monk finding survivor and especially Hunter, who directly impacts the events of the story. That's not even mentioning the DLC characters, which all have *explicit* storylines that directly impact the overarching plot.

[@victinicool01]

I'm pretty sure you can kill 99% of things in Rainworld

[@dragonwithamonocle]

I like how Hi-Fi Rush's characters are all named after food. Chai, which is tea, Peppermint, which is obvious, and Macaron, which is a delicious sort of sandwich cookie-like dessert.

[@techietisdead]

Well, Korssica breaks the trend, and the last to bosses take it back

[@BurgerBunDog]

I love chai tea

[@Luna-fj9qh]

There's also this type of narrative in Outer Wilds. You play the character which seems like a protagonist... But in reality you are just here to witness what ancient civilisations discovered. Kinda like Stray.

[@munsterlandr1644]

wandersong has changed by brain forever and taught me why not spoiling media is important. i got it first day it was available on the nintendo store with only the trailers to go off of and was hit in the face with all its wonderful themes. for me, my fav has to be that you're _explicitly_ not the chosen one, which doesn't feel so major until audrey shows up and turns it into it being about popular people often being worse in person and how popularity in of itself can drive someone to literally end the universe

[@himm_2559]

whenever its asked for a game where you're not the protagonist, i think of super paper mario. fits the "vehicle character" really well

[@peanutlemon8354]

13:26 "Which action takes more courage?" okay, that was a dope line to drop on us

[@taco_captain5139]

that line hit me harder than the baby in the birth scene from big fish

[@a_peridox]

Would like to add that in Super Paper Mario, Mario is the vehicle character, while the story mainly revolved around Tippi (and Count Bleck). The entire time Tippi questions her memories (or lack thereof) and develops an attachment to the main playable characters (Mario and co.) ... and grows from a simple info-dumper character to a character that takes the stage in what's essentially a love story

[@KimonoSuki]

I love Super Paper Mario so much. People rarely talk about it in favor of the more typical RPG installments in the series, but SPM is by far my fav. Grew up with that game and I think about it all the time.

[@daliblue_]

I love SPM so much, it's my favorite Mario game. The way they managed to make such an amazing story with so many memorable characters (Bleck's tragic backstory and Dimentio's betrayal especially) is so great, and yet not enough people talk about the game :^)

[@monky4640]

funny you mention SPM because it's almost the opposite case of Stray - people say Stray is popular because of the cat, while people say SPM is weird because of Mario's presence in a very non-Mario-like story nonetheless banger game

[@1000g2g3g4g800999]

Super Paper Mario probably still has the best story of any Nintendo published game to date. It also has a lot of weird similarities to games like Undertale, and the subgenre of RPGs we currently have that clearly take a lot from the Mother series probably also take a lot from Mario RPGs, especially Super Paper Mario, or otherwise Mario RPGs just naturally fit in a similar category.

[@MatthewWoods-r2k]

No it isn’t

[@EmanuelMunoz-bo6kv]

"an-unanthropomorphized cat" so like, a regular cat

[@ashmarten2884]

Allow me to introduce another game that perfectly fits this video essay. It’s also about depressed computers and cats falling down holes and trying to reunite with their family… Rain World

[@alexskorpik11play79]

ok

[@shinybe]

I really thought you were going to say Oneshot lol

[@FletchChokieboe]

i love rain world so much. it made me feel like i was only important to myself. there's so much we're never going to know while looking through the eyes of a slugcat.

[@therandomscout6590]

So many people have said Rain World, nobody gives a crap about Road 96.

[@KingBanks18]

Another clear example is Tidus and Yuna in FFX, Yuna being the main character while Tidus is the pov

[@Mavuika_Gyaru]

Oh yeah? Then why does he say "this is my story"? Checkmate, athiest

[@ketchup5949]

I'd argue that it's both of their stories.

[@Dragonmist19X]

Or Vaan and FFXII. While the story does focus on him for a bit. Eventually it focuses on the real main character and he's just there to help out his companions.

[@iantaakalla8180]

⁠@@Mavuika_Gyaru Because in the face of his impending doom by Sin or the removal of Sin, he would like to feel that he made any difference in Yuna’s story, and indeed, he has massively changed Yuna’s outlook such that she now takes Tidus’s outlook on life. Thus, Tidus is important because he is important to Yuna’s story, but as an outsider that is all he is in-universe and outside the party. A motivator for Yuna.

[@michaelmann7816]

​@@Dragonmist19X Honestly, I'd say this is the best example out of the FF series. X feels more like two separate stories meeting and sticking together, with them merging when it's revealed that Tidus's long-term (and temporarily put on the back burner due to the whole "stuck in a place I know nothing about" thing...) goal and Yuna's end goal both require the same thing. (Yes, I'm being deliberately vague for the sake of any passers-by who don't know the twist and want to avoid spoilers for this 20-ish year old game. Deal with it.)

[@monkey_d_eli]

"One shot", also does something very interesting, since it makes you the player a protaganist of the world and you view this world through the eyes of a cat creature called nico, who only wants to get back home. But to get home he must shatter an artifact which is the only thing that could save the world. And you the player are then the driving force of this story.

[@iciclepops]

when i saw bard's half silhouette i thought he was a sonic character or something. but then i saw the full silhouette and i audibly gasped because wandersong is such an incredibly important game for me i love it so much

[@lilyfae7197]

I love that despite the fact that there’s very little Wandersong content out there, whenever there is a video about it all the fans are summoned to swarm the comments haha

[@iciclepops]

@@lilyfae7197 i have a very pacifistic view of the world so seeing it in explicitly in wandersong and ut/dr warms my heart and naturally makes me like those kinds of games more

[@iciclepops]

oh and also i was told there were gay yetis so obviously i rushed to play this game and loved it

[@serhiy-serhiiv]

​@@iciclepops "I have a very pacifistic view of the world" Tell me you are insanely privileged without telling me you are insanely privileged.

[@iciclepops]

@@serhiy-serhiiv sorry if that offends you i just personally dont like killing characters in games because i get attached even if they're enemies 🤷‍♂️ what a strange thing to get upset about though

[@ChrisTrenary]

Dude, your writing and editing are TOP NOTCH. I feel lucky to be here relatively early in your channel's life and I have no doubt you are going to SKYROCKET in popularity once more people find your work. Great video!!

[@i_am_a_dot]

Thank you so much! I'm excited to have you along for the ride!

[@tahkaimartin8050]

My sentiments exactly

[@MacDonellCashRicher]

Another contender would be Super Paper Mario. Sure, Mario and the rest of the playable characters are described as the Heroes who shall claim the Pure Hearts, but the actual plot is about a couple whose story is told in between chapters. It is the reason behind the game's events, and Mario and co are only there to get the true protagonists where they need to be. Honestly, they didn't need to go so hard on the story, but they did, and I love it.

[@lollordfrozen]

I feel like an honorable mention is undertale and its inspiration earthbound, where at the begining you are asked to name the fallen child or name yourself. Both games want you as a player to project themselves on to the character they play as. But then in a twist it is revealed that the character you've been playing as is not a player insert, but rather their very own person. Both games are very story driven, so the distiction that eventhough you're controlling the character they are still their own person is important. I would put this in the first category of having a vehicle character, but in this case the vehicle character is you, the Player, and the playable character on screen is still the protagonist though. I just thought this was a very interesting dynamic worth mentioning on this topic aswell.

[@Peppermynt.]

0:36 “if my singing monsters didnt have monsters, it wouldn’t have been popular”

[@SasamuelTheCool]

ahh yes my favourite game, "My singing"

[@Maxcario]

My Singing Animalia

[@jkid1134]

Got me thinking about how in pirates of the carribean online you create your character and then Jack Sparrow swings in, points you toward the main quest line, and swings away, really just sort of cementing the "oh, yeah, I'm like a regular pirate not like an important pirate like Jack Sparrow"

[@iantaakalla8180]

I remember that a particular interesting take is Link in Twilight Princess. Yes, the story involves Ganondorf and you take him down because he provides Zant’s strength, but the story is about solving the issues of the Twilight Realm under an unknown ruler - Midna. But you are still doing the heroic feats, and Ganondorf and Zelda are instrumental, but Link/Zelda/Ganondorf are not the focus of the story.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Another interesting take: Dragon Quest Builders 1. You are the person that does the heroic deeds, but apparently you were literally not meant for that role as Rubiss reminds you. You just ignore her, so you do become the hero, but without that attitude PC of DQB1 would be the character that sets up the future hero.

[@sboinkthelegday3892]

It's highly derivative of The flight of Dragons (1982)

[@lilyfae7197]

I never really thought about it, but I totally agree with that- TP feels like walking through a story as an observer even though you are the helping to progress the plot. You’re there, but seem to speak less than some Links- and that’s saying something! Things are happening to you, and you’re just responding. In Skyward Sword and BOTW, Link is directly responsible for Doing The Thing even if something else pushes you sometimes. In Twilight Princess it feels almost like you’re Midna’s sidekick, helping her fix the Twilight Realm and trying to survive Zant’s tantrum

[@lilyfae7197]

I love Twilight Princess so much I could talk about it for hours haha. First and favorite Zelda game

[@lightborn9071]

You are the runaround maiden in EVERY tloz game.

[@naviadidem]

This is a very underrated analysis of story and game development. It's thorough and truly amazing work with a plethora of examples. I never imagined that the architecture behind storytelling could be built like this!

[@doyourownresearch7297]

plethora. I know people are smart when they say plethora. Its a key indicator.

[@AmayaMorgan-d8s]

i have to say i was deeply suprised not to see rain world on here until i realized that you were talking about a slightly different thing

[@voldrik1364]

Another good example is Oblivion. You may play as the badass "Hero of Kvatch", but your story is all in service to making sure Martin Septim saves the world. Martin is Oblivion's Nerevarine/Dovahkiin, you're just the guy doing the leg work.

[@marshspy]

Hell yeah I said the same thing, hero of kvatch does some dope stuff but Martin is the true hero

[@Darkprosper]

Well, that one falls into the character creator category, which is its own entire discussion. How does the game writer handle a main character, when core aspects of that character are left to the player ? That's why those games usually put the emphasis on something else, with the main character not that strongly inserted into the game (though the Dragon Age series tried to play with that).

[@voldrik1364]

@@Darkprosper I don't know if I fully agree with the idea that "character creator" games necessarily lessen the player character's role as the main character or protagonist. Just because the details of the character are left up to the player doesn't mean that they aren't the one driving the story forward or aren't the main focus.

[@Darkprosper]

@@voldrik1364 Yeah I'm not saying that they're not, but it comes with its own challenges which set them apart.

[@voldrik1364]

@@Darkprosper I don't see how it sets them apart, especially in the context of this discussion. Whether you design the character or the devs do doesn't impact the narrative. You can often even design your character in a way that's in conflict with the narrative (TES3/5, Rise of the Ronin, Dragon's Dogma 2) but the narrative will just ignore it or say something like "huh, I guess [non nord/dark elf race] can be Dovahkiin/Nerevarine". And even if they present different challenges for the writer, that doesn't really matter when looking at the final product to determine the PC's role in the story.

[@thedarklordofcats339]

I really appreciate how you make a point to not include spoilers in your videos, including stating that at the beginning of the videos! The dismissive attitude some people have to revealing big twists or plot points in games is always really frustrating to me, so the fact you put an effort to not take away that experience is very nice!

[@martadomingues1691]

There's another game that's very different but still falls into this category which is "One Shot". You control the main character but you're NOT the main character. You're the god in the world which has to guide them, it breaks the 4th wall, which is neat. They're a whole seperate entity from you so maybe it belongs here.

[@MiDuWay]

This might be what makes me play Wandersong

[@lilyfae7197]

Doooo it! It’s a very charming game that hooked me immediately. It’s got great characters, art, gameplay, puzzles, and story! It’s silly but has some really good moments- I still remember some scenes and puzzles years after playing it.

[@discodragon9441]

Tangentially related, are video games that make a distinction between you, the player, and the Protagonist, or who you play as. They have always had such a unique dynamic that can be toyed with in a lot of ways. (The immediate game in my mind being Toby fox's Deltarune, comparing the will of the player with Kris' lack of agency. Also up there is Oneshot ((fantastic game, play it if you haven't)) where the player in the world appears to be akin to a deity.) Fascinating video, I really enjoyed it.

[@CalamitousProphet]

Finally scrolled down far enough to find another commenter mentioning OneShot. It *absolutely* seems perfect for a dissection of the video's topics, and I've never seen a game handle it so clearly and intentionally. All used to great effect. Absolutely worth recommending to others even if it *weren't* incredibly poignant to the topic at hand, but also, it very, very is such.

[@greensun0008]

yesss i was looking for someone bringing up deltarune!

[@shinybe]

Deltarune and Oneshot are some of my favorite games because of those reasons

[@Sesofuken]

The last game reminded me of another game called UNDERHERO in which you are a henchman of the main antagonist and try to stop the game's hero from rescuing the prince who is captured by the villain. It would seem like a normal story of a hero who defeats the villain and saves the princess but... Due to an unforeseen event, you end up accidentally killing the hero at the beginning of the game

[@rubyblooddemonking]

Reminds me of games about journey to the west. Sun wukong is the action guy they let you play as, but tripitaka is the main character you need to protect

[@Isuream6331]

I just realised Journey to the West is just a really long escort mission

[@johnynoway9127]

but at least the escorted person helps out.​@@Isuream6331

[@jamesbrice3267]

Enslaved is the videogame representative, I wished it'd sold more.

[@johnynoway9127]

@@jamesbrice3267 Enslaved:Odysey to the West

[@jamesbrice3267]

@@johnynoway9127 Thanks, I'd forgotten the second bit.

[@Serac111]

The first game i will always think about not being the protagonist is Moon: Remix RPG Adventure, that is probably one of the most influential yet also underrated examples out there. The whole idea goes of you getting isekai'd into your favorite RPG game but not as the "noble knight" but as an NPC, were you can see pass by your old self roaming around, stealing stuff from chest, opening doors, killing pets and harmless animals, finally understanding the damage you have done while trying to repair your past actions

[@bahencio]

OneShot is the most literal interpretation of this videos title

[@karmicrespite5737]

Found this video from a random recommendation and just adding a comment to say that this was a really nice video and it's always fun seeing Wandersong mentioned.

[@randompersonyoudontknow5763]

Wandersong is such a good game, wish it got more attention tho

[@OtterSpace975]

The classic Final Fantasy Tactics is much like this as well. The story is actually about your childhood friend Delita and him making schemes and rising through the ranks to eventually pull off a complex play for the throne. The story is actually told from the eyes of a historian, as the story of the player character was marked as heresy, and thrown in the church vaults, only coming to light after something like a thousand years, if I remember correctly. It shows your party saving the world from background threats while Delita benefits immensely from it.

[@p-aluneau5136]

Final Fantasy XII as well. One could argue that the real protagonist is Ashe because the story is about her reclaiming her kingdom, and Vaan is just "tagging along" and doesn't have much development.

[@OtterSpace975]

@@p-aluneau5136 Well, sure but that's still the main party. Thier goals align. Delita's goals and Ramza's don't really align except tangentially, and you don't really have the whole side of Delita's story till the end. But yeah, story wise, the Ivalice games are my favorites. Besides 7, but everyone loves 7.

[@mattandrews2594]

I presume you didn't watch the video? Dot clearly said the criteria including having a single playable character only.

[@jerweldeperio7446]

@@mattandrews2594 Well, yeah, it was mentioned first. However, if not for that point, Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy XII can be said to fit in these kinds of category. But well, when I read the title, the first game that entered my mind was Final Fantasy XII since it is the story of Ashe rather than Vaan.

[@mattandrews2594]

@@jerweldeperio7446 "If not for that point" is just admitting it's a different argument then. But it's key to this specific topic, so bringing up games like FFXII and Tactics is moving the goalposts, and doesn't belong on this topic.

[@Local_Iterator]

a cat falls from their family into an unknown area full of deadly creatures... wonder where ive heard that story before?

[@soreg666alex]

The Borderlands 3 is a great example of this trope made extremely badly. In BL2 while the NPCs was much more fleshed out then PCs, the antagonist still talked a lot to you directly and expressed that he hates you, the player character. In BL3 they even gave protagonists voices to speak for themselves, yet the story pretends like they don't exist, focusing solely on relationships between NPCs while PCs are swept under the rug completely aside from gags.

[@blazaybla22]

Borderlands 3 and what I played of Destiny 2 are both in this category for me. The story alternates between NPCs doing important things and then your character being shoved into gameplay that most of the time has nothing to do with anything about the story progression you just passively witnessed.

[@nedcurfman3486]

Ffffffucking Ava.

[@frozenhawk150]

Kenshi and Rain world are some of my favorite games to play just due to the nature of the player being so much weaker than even generic enemies but stull being amazing games for letting you overcome those challenges without making you the strongest being

[@MarzaButTube]

ive been watching kenshi stuff and i thought that maybe youtube recommended me this cuz it had kenshi lol

[@Arkimedus]

@@MarzaButTube same brother, the algorithm is always watching

[@koulatta9693]

3:31 that fishing rod reeling-like sound effect made me jump, I thought it was a fly buzzing right in my face

[@zekeram129]

I saw that Kiwi-shaped silhouette and I immediately clicked. Spoilers but The _entirety_ of Audrey Redheart, every aspect of her existence, is utterly sublime writing. And the achievements? Genuinely some of the best use of meta elements to enhance the story that I have _ever_ seen.

[@amalsoappickle]

I AGREE SO MUCH I LOVE HOW SHES DONE

[@greenhydra10]

She's so punchable.

[@TheWisme]

I nearly cried when I saw the bard's sillouhette. Wandersong is my favorite game of all time, and just thinking about it can still move me to tears.

[@Steir12]

If you want to see the game where you REALLY not a protagonist you should check Space Rangers 2. You can land on isolated planet right at the beginning of the game and just skip days and eventually game will either win itself or lose (depending on difficulty setting) and roll credits on you. One of the most immersive games i ever played. In most other games you might not be a protagonist narratively but game is still revolving around player and actions they take while there you are just a guy doing his stuff in a world that operates completely on its own.

[@bbloveseevees8984]

When I saw Kiwi on the thumbnail, I literally started shaking and yelled: “My boy! It’s my boy!” Wandersong is so underrated, I did a review on it for my school’s newspaper :3

[@SunroseStudios]

Kiwi isn't a boy, right?? we were under the impression they're nonbinary but yeah wandersong is so good

[@bbloveseevees8984]

@@SunroseStudios yeah Kiwi is canonically Enby, but I couldn’t think of anything else to call them :/

[@JohnRobertMatzComposer]

@@bbloveseevees8984 Bard here! Yep, Kiwi's non-binary, but we'll give you a pass on this one. ;)

[@ding-dong_bing-bong]

I view "boy" as gender neutral tbh at least when it's in the context of an affectionate name for something you feel paternal towards like a cat or something but if you'd like suggestions I feel like something along the lines of "goober" or "silly" would be good replacements lol

[@mishagaming1075]

@@ding-dong_bing-bong"My silly! My goober!"

[@CalamitousProphet]

If you're looking to seek deeper in the separation of the protagonist, viewpoint character, player control, and agency in the story, assuming you aren't already familiar, I'd highly recommend a game called OneShot. Very early in the game it breaks down the entire notion of the player becoming the protagonist. While you *guide* the controlled character, Niko, the character is *aware* of you, the player, and choosing to go along with your actions. Niko makes their own decisions, interacts with the environment and the people therein, and chooses their own goals, while accepting guidance from the player, going so far as holding conversations with you on the other side of the screen. No other game has more thoroughly and clearly delineated that we, the player, are *not* meant to project onto the character onscreen, and doing so presented a completely unique viewpoint that feels completely unrepresented in gaming. I feel that in playing it, one could learn a lot about the topic of the video. Regardless of whether you play or not, thank you for the video, and keep up the good work.

[@machinistbay]

it's often been cited that the real protagonist of Life is Strange, a game that prominiently features player choice at the forefront, is not the player character Max Caulfield, but her best friend and lover, Chloe Price

[@AngelAteem]

I still remember playing FFXII and realising about four hours in that my “main character” (Vaan) was barely participating in the main story outside of just kind of tagging along with all of the other important people.

[@justanotherhobbit7215]

Don't Listen to Ondore's Lies! Basch Lives!

[@leonardocarvalho7306]

@@justanotherhobbit7215 I'm Captain Basch fon Ronsenburg of Dalmasca!

[@regrr1774]

Scrolled through the comments looking for mention of FFXII. I think it's a great example. I might go play it again for the nostalgia.

[@justanotherhobbit7215]

@@regrr1774 If you want to, there are also mods for it to randomize it. Like enemies get attacks/spells swapped with different spells, or you can randomize items or shops, or randomize enemies. Adds a bit of fun too it if you like the game. Best one I've seen was rats being replaced with chocobo's that spam deathga, its terrifying

[@regrr1774]

@@justanotherhobbit7215 I was planning on just a chill replay but will definitely look into those mods. Thanks for mentioning it!

[@weetso2568]

Compliments to the thumbnail not only is it cool to see it in the video but the mystery of the silhouettes actually made me click on it and was fun to try and guess what you were going to talk about quite refreshing honestly. Lovely work!

[@cottontaelle]

i have to bring up disco elysium here. it doesn’t align 100% with this concept but it’s pretty close - part of the game’s beauty is how everyone around you has a full, rich life that you don’t see, and that you inherently will not experience all of what the game has in it. and along with that, you are an outsider to yourself - you gradually hear about everything that the main character did in the past and now he has to atone for that, deal with his own actions in periphery. DE is amazing, i always recommend it to everyone

[@howdyhamster]

There's a somewhat older indie game titled Recettear in a fantasy setting where you are not the hero trying to save the world, but a shopkeeper trying to make ends meet.

[@handsoaphandsoap]

Another in the same vein of Hi-Fi Rush is Final Fantasy X. Tidus is definitely the POV character; we start out playing as him and only him, we experience the world alongside him, we hear his inner monologue throughout the game, etc. But despite what Auron says at the beginning of the game, FFX is not Tidus’ story; it’s Yuna’s. It’s her pilgrimage, her entourage that makes up the party, her character journey, and her decisions that drive the plot. Had Tidus never left Zanarkand at the beginning of the game, the events of the story still would have taken place largely the same (though perhaps with an even more of a downer ending). The main function of Tidus from a storytelling perspective is to be Yuna’s Watson, because Yuna (and the other characters) knows too much and won’t ask the same questions that Tidus would about the world and its conflict.

[@i_am_a_dot]

I hadn't really thought about what would have happened if Titus didn't show up. That's a really interesting thought! I think it's also really clever since FFX has such deep lore, there's a character that has to have everything explained to him. Kind of the Luke Skywalker archetype, I guess. If you're interested, I made a video about Kimahri and his path on the Sphere Grid a few months ago that you might enjoy!

[@handsoaphandsoap]

​@@i_am_a_dot Yeah, it's a good narrative device for fantasy writers to throw a fish-out-of-water character into the mix to allow for natural exposition. Probably why the isekai subgenre has so many stories in the past few years, it's easy to throw in exposition when your MC has no idea how anything works in the world. Love your Kimahri vid, it's what brought me to your channel in the first place! Got an immediate sub from me after watching it.

[@iantaakalla8180]

I love that in a world where isekai is commonplace, one of the most enduring stories is actual reverse isekai (a person from the fake world is transported to the real world, and deals with the fact that he is unimportant in terms of Spiran issues and that he will die, as opposed to being reincarnated to a world where your particular issues are really particular strengths and you undergo self-development and ego building).

[@sboinkthelegday3892]

That's largely the origin of prose ever since Don Quixote, and throws a sabot into the argument that games are suited to challenge this notion. Our navel-gazing POV already comes from fundamental challenging of WRITTEN WORD, that prose BROUGHT onto this stage. Majority of "stories" of the day are refused by the audience as stories, and simply work as vehicles to feed them back their own affirmed biases. Like stories are called "bad" if the good guy does the wrong things thus upsetting the viewers. And "wrong things"are arbitrated as whatever is framed as the good guy's interest, even if it's a lackey of Griffith like in Berserk, who brought upon the rebirth of the world through being a tribal-oriented self-interested murderer, making friends with all the people Griffith saved to fight for his cause. Or not, if they wouldn't make that wager, but that's what they did and that's their explicitly stated Agon in Band of the Hawk. You would say Berserk is not "best suited" to challenge its audience. Because its audience simply does not... answer to challenges. That's spectator sports. "Playing" or "running" these programs and displays, to DO NOTHING, only witness the events and disapprove of them. And that's what video games DO, they substitute a "challenge" for a skinner box to distract you, confuse you into saying "That was me! I did that!".

[@abcdef-mz7gf]

There should be a Yuna mod where titus is deleted and you play as yuna instead

[@ethanw041]

Viscera Cleanup Detail. You clean up the mess left over by the protagonist

[@skyjam99]

Liked and subbed at 1:15, dang that was a good intro

[@thatsmaik]

Lmao, did the same thing at the exact same time and read your comment

[@abdullaheta]

Same

[@A08J]

Same and then i saw your comment

[@nittabytes]

I saw the title and was hoping you talked about wandersong, really happy when you mentioned it!

[@intless93]

I wonder if Undertale fits this category of story telling. The player character (which you don't even know the name unless you're playing for a very specific ending) is just a kid who feel down a hole and is trying to get back up. They discover that the underground is habitaded by "monsters" and that something happened a long time ago that kept the monsters stuck in the underground. The story isn't about you, is about these monsters, their story as a nation and what they're doing to solve this problem. You're just watching all unfold while trying to get out of there. So much that in the neutral ending you feel bad about some of your actions, because you begin to care for these monsters, so much that you begin to feel that doing anything to escape isn't justified. Such a good game.

[@dovakhiinmaster2967]

I disagree. The Player is absolutely the star of the show in Undertale. You drive forward the story of the Monsters, and you're almost dragging them along for the ride. The Player decides who lives and dies. The Player decides if the monsters must relive their story. The Player is the only reason anything happens, other than the monsters going about their lives. It's absolutely a unique game that challenges the notion of a protagonist, and the general morality of video games, but The Player is still what the story is about. You dictate everything and your development is what matters. I agree that the story is about progressing the monster nation, towards freedom, death, or to be left as you move on, but I'd make the argument that The Player is the main character deciding everything. Sorry for my poor writing here

[@Drawoon]

Heck yeah, wandersong! Always nice to see someone talk about my favorite video game.

[@makeandbreakgames1791]

me scrolling through the entire video looking for Rainworld:

[@punkdigerati]

While not necessarily clickbait, I think the title was more broad than the actual thesis.

[@megascopsasio2015]

@@punkdigerati agreed, I think they were just talking about a few standouts that they have played - maybe with all the suggestions in these comments, like Rain World, they will have a lot of new games to play and talk about!

[@elshelalu2027]

sameeee

[@TrixterTheFemboy]

me fr

[@pixelmightexist]

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