Games Workshop changed their paints - And they didn't tell us

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Gamesworkshop and Citadel colors have changed. And they didnt tell us about it. Here's what we found.
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Videos edited by Maxime Dader & Viktor Westermark

[@HellstormWargaming]

finally featured in a Squidmar video at 1:40 (my leg) Thanks for the collab guys was super fun

[@SquidmarMiniatures]

Fark yesss

[@Average_Crafts]

Dem Gams

[@wikyWargaming]

The difference in the Khorne red was immediately noticeable.

[@gammothdraws]

Agreed, while somewhat subtle, I love the Khorne red because of how it's not only dark, but also slightly more magenta than just a darker Mephiston Red or Evil Sunz

[@RawbeardX]

wonder if it is related to that green contamination...

[@biowiener7825]

oh man, guess i have to be sparse with my pot because i love that colour

[@Argorok87]

Khorne's almost become a wine red/not-quite-burgundy colour. New favourite darker red is Word Bearer's Red.

[@adamsmith8765]

Well that sucks. I paint blood Ravens. Khorne red is 90% of my paint job. Just about finished my old pot ....

[@validus29]

Balthasar gold seems to come in a different color every time they make a new batch.

[@SEVANV]

Half of the time they just fill the pots with brass scorpio I guess

[@DaedWOR]

I used to think that was a sort of rose gold as every pot ive ever seen, looking at the outside of the pot it was a metallic pink. Imagine my surprise on opening the first one lol

[@pythonking16.59]

Don’t forget about sycorax bronze

[@alex-simpson]

Retributor Armour is horrible for it. Ranges from a red gold right through to a metallic greeny-yellow.

[@samtaylor5778]

I have 5 bottles of balthasar and they're all different from each other 😂

[@Lulu-hv6bo]

Colorist Worker here. ( In the packaging industry, btw colorist is the same work in every industry). To create color u need a few things but most importantly : - resin & - pigment. Due to increasing tension in the global market worldwide (east europe country for example can't provide thing like in the past) , industry have to adapt and sometimes change supplier for their pigment. We try our best to make this change as subtle as it can be but sometimes batch can't be the exactly same as before ( red tone are particulary sensitive to this kind of change, including brown redish tone). Also pigment can interact differently with the light,( it's an important point here, if our eyes can see colour it's because of the light reflection on this colour in our eyes), this phenomen can cause Metamerism ( i will let you google that).

[@ColonelSandersLite]

I'm pretty sure it's simpler than that. They just used an old art trick to improve opacity and coverage - add some white pigment. The downside is that you hurt saturation and increase value. Which is exactly what we're seeing here. Using this trad art method manually, you can really get full coverage of a color with two coats. Cut the first coat with white to get opacity and recoat with uncut pigment to restore vibrancy. The big problem with the way GW has done it here is that you lose the control. The advantage is that you're emphasizing ease of use.

[@Lulu-hv6bo]

@@ColonelSandersLite U have a point here. Adding white in a colour bring opacity. And if you're right ( adding white pigment) i probably have the answer to the question : why you loose control. White pigment is commonly made from TItanium Dioxide (Tio²), Tio² is a big and heavy particle who can cause blocking (the blend between the component of the ink are bad) it's probably the cause of why we have less control with the new GW paints.

[@ColonelSandersLite]

@@Lulu-hv6bo Well, I'm sure that's a thing sometimes but I was meaning control less in the brush control sort of technical sense and more in the you lose options sense. Just to try and be as clear as possible - Let's say you want to get full coverage of whatever g-dubs is calling their synthetic cad red medium (khorne I think?). You used to be able to cut the first coat with white for opacity and then recoat uncut to achieve the full saturation you wanted. Now, you literally can't do step 2. You're stuck with the paler desaturated red unless you go outside the GW paint range. You also have a problem were you didn't even want much opacity to begin with, such as you might see in applying glazes and washes. You're forced to dilute the paint even further to achieve the opacity you wanted but there's no way to achieve saturation anymore. This has always been a core problem with nearly every brand of hobby oriented paints though. It's not really a new thing, it just a thing people are noticing because that point just moved.

[@notmenotme614]

Yes I have noticed how much of a difference light makes when I changed light bulbs in my home. From normal bulbs with a warm yellow light to new LEDs that have a very white light. Things look different under the clinical LED white light, I can even see where I spilt an entire pot of yellow paint into my carpet.

[@jabbasleftnut1530]

Yes, metamerism the screen printers get out of jail free card. I haven't heard that one in years,.

[@SwampRatMiniatures]

If only they would change the pots too 🙃🙃🙃

[@alexrenxa7700]

But these ones dry out faster meaning we have to buy more. They 100% know what they are doing

[@adamg4336]

they need to get with the times and go for a droplet bottle

[@NisGaarde]

The Citadel pots are really the worst

[@Jason-gq8fo]

I prefer the pots

[@JohnDoe-rp7mf]

@Jason-gq8fo This one right here inquisitor…

[@thekartoeffel]

A shop owner in my area wasn't able to get vallejo model color. He told me that many pigments were imported from Russia. Due to the war and the sanctions it wasn't possible to import the needed pigments. Therefore vallejo came up with the new model colors. Could be the same reason with game workshop, that they had to switch their pigment supplier.

[@PerfectionHunter]

Absolutely possible. Many industries had to do the same, like Water Refinery Plants in Europe (that makes tapwater drinkable).

[@Gefta101]

It's true, effecting the colour pigments in many industries. Experienced it with brick colours, specifically charcoal blockpaving

[@Dodovacer]

I was also thinking about this or a general issue with deliveries and supply changes (or changed pricing) post pandemic/post invasion economy is still different.

[@eamonndevlin5889]

I've also heard that paint pigment is really expensive so I wouldn't be surprised if this was a way for them to cut costs.

[@mikegrant8031]

As a pint contractor if we had to buy a color from more than one lot, we mixed all the lots together first. They are rarely identical. Games Workshops policy is if they change suppliers or formulas for any reason they retire the old color. This could be a batch mismatch or the manufacturer not telling GW. I doubt it was GW as they are pretty uptight about their paint line.

[@michaelheath9043]

With 30 years of hobby painting, most of the time using citadel paints. I have learned that Games Workshop changes formulas often, without warning. I have had terrible experiences developing beautiful tyranid paint schemes and they up and stop making the colors my whole army is dependent on. Now my paint collection includes 4 to 5 different companies, different pigments, all for blending and mixing. Learning to mix your own colors and inks is such a valuable skill and only time and practice will get you there.

[@Newenglander1000]

Same with my Tau...Shadow Gray, The Fang, ect.

[@blw4089]

Cheap.craft paints work just fine when you put them in an empty pot and create a new mixture. And the paint is much thicker, a $1 bottle can last years.

[@SuperDuperHappyTime]

That opening turned me into Homer Simpson “It’s not quite as vibrant” Me: “Oh that’s bad” “But it’s got better coverage” Me: “Oh but that’s good!”

[@Hartwig870]

"The paint contain potassium benzoate."

[@meatybtz]

Honestly, the new Khorn Red looks more like mephiston red. Khorn Red was always this wonderful rich, dark-dried, old, blood red color (great for dark rust).

[@jamesmaybrick2001]

Mephiston is 100% different also. Its MUCH lighter and more orangey.

[@meatybtz]

@@jamesmaybrick2001 wow, orangy tones in new mephiston red? What the heck are they doing...

[@jamesmaybrick2001]

@@meatybtz I bet that sounded clever in your head. Best to have kept it there. New mephiston red is almost identical to evil sunz scarlett. Scarlett is maybe a hairs breath lighter. Mephiston red WAS closer to brown than orange.

[@meatybtz]

@@jamesmaybrick2001 that's my point. Not sarcasm. It seems like the shifted the whole red set one level desaturated but also brighter. Mephiston red was a go-to for dark red leather items. Making it brighter ruins it for that. It was the brown tones that made it useful. Turning it towards orange moves into a completely different paint. Worthless now for what I always used it for.

[@sirrathersplendid4825]

Fell in love with Citadel’s Calthan Brown. It’s the best colour I’ve ever seen for painting horses. Of course they discontinued it…

[@dragonwyrmdracodracul8361]

That is why Pigment numbers are the minimum requirement. They don't fully stop variations, but at least you know the general gist. Even better some artist paints have a paint swatch on the label. So you can easily see any issues with the batch.

[@romeo.3472]

Been slowly moving my paints to AK where possible when a Citadel runs out. Cheaper, in droppers, locally available and 17ml rather than 12ml, and i now prefer more muted colours that AK have a great range of. AK Grim Brown is a great alternative to Rhinox Hide.

[@mikew466]

AK and Valejo are just better paints in my opinion. You just have to get used to the new names for everything.

[@DeusExNihilo]

I work for a sign company that uses huge industrial printers. recently, the company we get our ink from (the same company that makes the printers) changed their ink and it no longer has the same properties necessary for our uses. Since their ink cartridges are proprietary, we can't simply go to another company to get the ink we need. Now we have to change our entire process to account for the new ink.

[@carbharharbcar5867]

closed source moment

[@loan-shark]

I work for Jotun. Batches change all the time depending on material price. The formula might be the same but depending on the prices ingredients can come from different sources which can alter a batch

[@noahward9445]

Come back next time for the thrilling conclusion of what is the Rhinox Hide alternative.

[@deltacharlie1760]

Vallejo game color charred brown ✅

[@catherder6552]

​@@deltacharlie1760This man has the truth of it

[@agnpaints2663]

Kimera red + kimera black 1:1

[@axelblaze3589]

@@deltacharlie1760 Guess I might have to start getting Vallejo range of paints. My poor wallet lmao

[@irishwristwatch2487]

@@axelblaze3589 In fairness, they are one of the cheaper brands

[@neilrusling-je6zo]

Paint companies change formulations all the time and rarely say a word. It is usually to get the paint to go further and to make it cheaper. If you find a paint you love then buy plenty of it and store it because the odds are they will change it, they just love messing about with it. We used to call it, "Kids took over", meaning father has retired and his kids took over the job and wants more money and cares nothing for the product. To be fair that change is almost nothing in comparison to some changes ive seen, thats at least still a paint you can use, many times the change makes it unusable.

[@FairPlayGaming]

Some time ago, a product manager was interviewed about Games Workshop's business practices regarding their products. He openly stated that they were targeting beginners and casuals rather than pros and longtime hobbyists, which potentially explains why changes were made to their paints to favor the former group at the expense of the latter.

[@mcbamm5683]

It’s been happening in the gaming industry too, with older live service games suddenly catering to new players. They need new blood to keep GW running, and they know oldheads are locked in no matter what.

[@MasterShake9000]

@@mcbamm5683sorta. What he’s referring to is that GW did a study that revealed the average gamer only stays in the hobby for two years. If you’re reading this, your perspective is probably skewed by being one of the relatively few who’s been in for the long haul, along with a number of friends. So to most vets, it doesn’t seem like newbies are the dominant category of customer. But the reality is that the vast majority of customers aren’t in that long, and GW has realized you can maximize profits and minimize costs by focusing on that much larger temporary group who’ll be happy to buy up all their accessories from GW alongside the games, instead of having to invest more and more resources into making the advanced products that a veteran gamer or painter is going to want. IE things like vibrant but more difficult to use acrylics, oils and enamels, airbrushes, etc. The interview the other person is referring to even references that GW knows and expects veteran gamers will abandon their hobby supplies for better products The intention of the modern GW paint range is to paint minis using a rattle can to prime, contrast and base colors to quickly block in the primary colors, and then as desired or as skilled, the customer can start adding in details like lenses and eyes, or start adding shades and highlights (beyond those provided by the contrast paints). Anything achieved by veteran or skilled painters is a nice bonus from GW’s point of view, not an intended or necessary focus of what they make, paint-wise. The interview, btw, is on The Painting Phase. Don’t remember the chap’s name, but I believe the episode title references contrast paints “saving” GW as they were apparently released when GW was teetering and almost nearly unable to make payroll.

[@Sadistichippo]

realistically experienced and elder hobbyists are far more likely to use a FLGS, more likely to pirate rules, more likely to 3d print, more likely to have found professional tools. They simply become less and less monetizable for GW compared to brand new people walking into a store for the first time who go "screw it, ill just get it all here while im here" and buy the GW clippers and the GW brushes and the gw painting handle.

[@dushikorsou1]

Well not that weird new people will buy your product more...

[@rogthepirate4593]

@@Sadistichippo Honestly, I haven't been in the hobby for that long yet (3-4 years maybe), and even I quicky switched to using almost exclusively non-GW paints, brushes, tools, you name it. I have a decently sized resin printer for minis now and a decently fast FDM for terrain, because their prices are beyond ridiculous, I'm not paying several hundred bucks for a single halfway playable army. I've also quickly grown tired of their constant and intentional game imbalances, to the point that I rarely play 40k at all these days. In my friend group we usually play OPR instead, because it's faster, more fun, less tedious and actually balanced because it isn't designed to sell the latest releases. The funny thing is, GW wouldn't need to constantly fish for new players if they didn't persistently piss off their existing players by their absolutely terrible business decisions.

[@theycallmepiccolo9985]

Before the updated the washes to be weaker around 2020 - 2022 they changed the Agrax Earth Shade to be darker and less brown. Ive still got a old pot that ive been having to colour match

[@jessewieman6955]

I hate the new agrax earthshade

[@theycallmepiccolo9985]

@@jessewieman6955 its tooo dark

[@danielscrimgeour8812]

@@jessewieman6955 if you liked the old gw washes then two thin coats has what you need. There washes are identical the old gw washes

[@Gigstar0]

This is a big reason why I've moved over to dedicated artist paints. There's a lot more information with pigment info/opaqueness right on the pot/tube and you get a lot more paint for the same money as dedicated miniature paints.

[@HansVonMannschaft]

Any recommended brands?

[@Gigstar0]

@@HansVonMannschaft I currently use Jo Sonja Matte flow acrylics. 75ml/2.5 Oz tubes and really easy to transfer to dropper bottles. Cheaper than miniature paints and can be thinned with water with zero fuss. I have tried the golden soflat but really didn't like them as they separated in the pot quickly, never had that with my Jo Sonja paints. I also use Atelier free flow although it can be very hard to get. Jo Sonja also doesn't have any cadmium paints in the range as far as I'm aware so none of that potentially toxic stuff. The only caveat to using artist paints is you're not going to get the extremely wide and super specific colour range of dedicated miniature paints i.e. there's not going to be a bugmans glow or death guard green equivalent and you'll have to mix your own. On the plus side though you'll get very good at mixing paints very quickly!

[@busterbackster1]

@@Gigstar0how’s the durability?

[@Legz_inStyle]

@@Gigstar0 The other thing I have found is that you have to careful with pigment size when making that switch. Model paints have a number of problems but pigment size is usually very small which can be important sometimes.

[@Gigstar0]

@@busterbackster1 Durability is totally fine. Gotta be trying pretty hard with your fingernail to rub it off. Just have to prime properly same as normal.

[@jessewieman6955]

Agrax earth shade is terrible now. It’s so glossy. There used to be a matte one and a gloss one. I feel they got rid of that distinction and combine them

[@southaussielad2496]

Seems thicker as well, I'm doing 50/50 agrax and medium to dull down the gloss and it's still a lot darker than it used to be

[@dgoll8773]

What has anyone moved to replace it (I still have a tall pot left, but I use it a lot)

[@mdem64]

This also happen with artist paints. I have had the same issue with Winsor and Newton oil paints and Atelier acrylic paints. Sometimes it is because of pigment availability or price. Sometimes they convert to using synthetic pigments, and it could also be the fillers.

[@tommak3]

If you have access to both old and new, you can do a proper measurement of the reflective spectrum of both. Apply a fully covering layer of each, then measure with a spectrophotometer. Nix Spectro 2 is the most approachable option for a hobby level measurements. Looking at the reflective spectra can give you pretty good idea of what happened with the pigments (you might see entire spectrum moving towards white/black). With some more work you could actually try to figure out what exactly happened there or reverse engineer the old formulation (but that requires more precise characterization of paints)

[@brandonrobertson9468]

ive ran into the same problem with wazdakka red. My old pot is rapidly running out and i still got my orks to finish. oh no.

[@rinsalaco]

I noticed a while ago that my khorne red and wazdakka red were much closer than they used to be. Those are my primary colors for my t'au.

[@alexgay4812]

This sounds like they have added more extender to the formula, such as chalk or mica, the more matte finish and higher build suggest chalk. Usually you need to increase the pigmentation a bit to compensate, but that doesn't seem to have happened here. The reason for increasing the amount of extender in your paint varies, one is to save money, the other is to increase the viscosity of the resin if you have changed the resin. I suspect cost savings.

[@GrahamWalters]

My customers haven't really complained about the subtle changes in formula, what they are complaining about is the paints drying up in the pots a lot quicker

[@MRWKFClark]

I work in the print industry and the manufacturers do this all the time. Not only does it affect colour, we’ve had batches that don’t adhere to the substrate.

[@wolfie54321]

Yeah, in the Vallejo Model Colour range (before the recent major update) there's been colours that randomly changed over the years. Historic people hate it because they come up with their mixes for specific historic colours, then suddenly they buy the same paint again and it doesn't match.

[@intuitivealchemist]

Well I'm continuing to switch all of my Citadel to "Two Thin Coats" "Vallejo" and "Pro Acryl."

[@astormofwrenches5555]

Same

[@technophobiakills4371]

Similar for me. Except for the contrast paints, I've moved away from Citadel to AK and Pro Acryl. And I don't plan on repurchasing those contrast paints as they empty.

[@clavicularius]

Don't forget the new Army painter Fanatic

[@Scribbinge]

@@clavicularius AP fanatic is just about the worst range you could buy if you don't want colour traded for coverage, they're a perfect example of a brand prioritising coverage over colour. (I own the full range, no criticism to AP, thats just the choice they made)

[@SugaRush63]

@@Scribbinge Honestly, they are perfect for beginners and people just looking to do Battle ready over contrast ready. My cousin just started painting with Marvel United and hes just following their "triads" and they look way better then when I started.

[@timmystwin]

GW tends to announce it when they change loads at once. The washes all got changed at once and they mentioned for instance Drakenhof actually looked different, and others looked similar. So this is probably a one off deal each time for whatever reason and it just doesn't get mentioned. Could be difficulty to get pigments, I know Russia used to make loads and... well...

[@paralipsis]

I had this same experience with Vallejo. Specifically, Model Air 71.299 Intermediate Blue. About2 years ago the formulation changed to be more desaturated. I wouldn't notice this change normally, except I was using it as the base colour for a large terrain project. I tried sourcing the same paint from several vendors, only to find that it was a consistent change that I had to find a way to work around.

[@utakuryukko2023]

You will be happy to know that Intermediate blue has been made obsolete in the recent reformulation.

[@XYZdude00]

I noticed a similar thing with mechanicus standard grey. Which is frustrating because the paint had a bluish hue that I would use to paint the grey-blue of krieg. Also tell me that company that has the old rhinox hide!!

[@s1umerlinkropf]

Vallejo charred brown

[@XYZdude00]

@@s1umerlinkropf I am going to buy some right now. Also if you know an answer to my mechanicus standard grey conundrum that would be fantastic

[@Ryuondo]

I have noticed it in other paint colors. Initially I just thought it was a less transparent pot. But no, they're lighter. Nagaroth Night, my most used color, isn't even the same color anymore. Which is really sad, because Citadel is the only brand producing a purple like that. Then they went and screwed it up. Kantor Blue is also more desaturated.

[@MegaRocco20]

dioxazine purple might be a similiar colour

[@Leofilmperson]

It'll be a lot of tyranids until my pot runs out, but I'll likely switch to Army Painter's Terrestrial Titan or Vallejo's Midnight Purple.

[@alun7006]

Interesting stuff! I am a very recent returnee to the hobby. I dug out my box of old paints recently to find that many of them have dried up (we're talking black flip-top Citadel from the early 2000s!) so im in the market for quite a lot of new paint.

[@jorgemontero6384]

Those reds look almost like Fanatic's "Pure Red", which is almost pink compared to Bold Pyrrole Red. And don't hide from us what the best Rhynox hide replacement

[@chaley2935]

Thank you for the information as I'm just starting to get into painting miniatures and models and it's nice to know. Oh, and I love my squidmar airbrush I ordered 2 weeks ago 😊

[@gammothdraws]

Yeah, I've noticed that the newer contrast paints have been off lately. Mainly that they keep separating, meanwhile my older ones stay fine

[@Strange8ractor]

Maybe GW got fed up with all the bizarre love that Army Painter has been getting for the desaturated Fanatic range, which is obviously loaded with gray pigment.

[@Spartan536]

I have been completely turned away from Citadel paints, the pots are a pain to work with, and now their colors are not as good as they were. The Army Painter and Vallejo have really stepped up their game and their products, with The Army Painter providing equally as good paints for 1/3 of the cost of a Citadel pot while giving you 18ml of paint! Now I still use Chaos Black and White Scar primers to prime and give some shading detail to the model but that's it, that is all I use Citadel for is priming.

[@MasterShake9000]

I hadn’t noticed the color changes, but I did notice the other day that GW seems to routinely quiet-drop individual paints. For example, Russ Grey seems to have been dropped here in the US as a layer paint, but is still available as an air paint. Meanwhile, it still shows as an available layer paint in the UK GW web store (as well as an air paint), so what’s going on is a complete mystery.

[@Swooper86]

Europe GW stockist here. No layer paints have been dropped recently, but they have quietly discontinued three technical (texture) paints and a bunch of air paints over the past year.

[@MasterShake9000]

@@Swooper86 you can literally go to the GW US webstore and see that Russ Grey no longer exists as a layer paint here. It may not be universal, but it’s simply not there and hasn’t been for nearly a year. Not merely out of stock but has been expunged and is no longer available even for independent retailers to restock once they run out of whatever was already on their shelves.

[@schneiderdark9132]

They also changed their washes, the new ones are not as good as the old ones.

[@rainbird2002]

They announced that. There were so many articles about that change of the washes on Warhammer Community. They admitted that they are less dense. So that change was very transparent!

[@axelblaze3589]

I kind of felt this. Null Oil wasn't as darker as it used to be. Any recomonedation for new ones? I am tempted by Two Thin Coats range for e normal paints but for washes not sure on.

[@HansVonMannschaft]

It's a matter of taste. I prefer the new ones.

[@GoufinAround_]

Idk how two things coats could get so close to classic citadel colors with a more matte finish and good coverage without desaturating the colors.

[@Trolleri87]

Nuln Oil and Agrax Earthshade is waaay more glossy than before.

[@HansVonMannschaft]

You're not shaking your pot enough, if at all.

[@alexrenxa7700]

Ugh i went out and bought a nuln oil a couple months ago and its absolute garbage now and costs more since its in a bigger pot 😡

[@luketfer]

Yeah Nuln oil is one of the ones that EVERYONE noticed had changed formula and it went from a 'must have' to 'meh' pretty much as soon as people realized it had been changed.

[@Jason-gq8fo]

They announced that change, they made it go into recesses more now

[@friendlyneighbourhoodnerd]

I'm fairly certain they flat out announced the change of formula on the shade paints, no? So now they use contrast medium instead of Lahmian, I'm pretty sure. That being said I haven't tried them out myself, to see what the changes are with my own eyes.

[@sirrathersplendid4825]

@@Jason-gq8fo- Yes, I think it’s become less of a ‘shade’ and more of a ‘wash’, which in truth is what it’s meant to be. Not tried the new formula yet, so can’t comment how effective that change has been.

[@ecMonify]

the new nuln oil is in a SMALLER pot, not a bigger one. they reduced the size of the pot but sell it for the same price. on top of that, it's half as strong, so you have to apply two coats to get the same effect as the old one - effectively doubling the price again, since you need to use twice as much paint for the same effect. yeah...

[@ChannelBCComix]

I work at a hobby store and about a year ago it was impossible for use to receive red paints we kept ordering but they were out of stock. It wasn't just Citadel, but Army painter too. I was guessing that red pigment was hard to come by for some reason.

[@jonathandoherty9082]

I've noticed this with agrax earthshade. Seem darker now and the main difference is it gives the minis more of a shine then the matt look it used to have

[@Yonasu]

All the new washes turned satin gloss instead of matte. It's horrendous

[@Talbaz]

Probably doing the same thing warpaint fanatics is doing a bit of white for better coverage. Edit: wish they would just change the pot

[@magicmonster6877]

At least with army painter they told us

[@mordechai9644]

Something I have noticed is the contrast paints are no longer spreading like they used to, they tend to want to just pool, and not in the recesses just anywhere on the model.

[@alexandrebelinge8996]

I don't know about color change, I'm phasing GW paint out of my stuff because of the pots. My local gaming stores carry 3 other range of paint. It is just an old habit.

[@TheColosiss]

I have some older GW pots and noticed a difference. I learned to start experimenting with my own schemes. I found that I like my own blend of certain cheap paints, cheap metallics if I need them, and my own blends for dilution. I have a special place in my heart for Apple barrel's better colors. I get the coverage I want with a unique variation of tones that make my army feel different. My eyes aren't as good as they once were, but I can still get the look I want after 20 years. Are they perfect? Nope. I'm also spending 1/10 on the paint price so, I'll take it. I can also replicate the results on my own without relying on the consistency of most companies.

[@daweimer71]

I agree. I'm about 100% sure GW changed their paint vendor 1-2 years ago. I first noticed the difference with their aerosol spray cans about 1.5 years ago. There are noticeable differences between older cans with the white spray nozzle and the new ones with the smaller inferior designed red ones. Like you mentioned I've also noticed some paint pots that aren't the same color or saturation as my previous one.

[@brentnelson8137]

Noticed this with Dryad Bark, Wraithbone, Mechanicus Standard Grey - any pot with a new label is different than before!

[@akvavit0]

Rhinox hide is the only citadel paint i use. Such a shame they changed it, it used to be amazing. Also big fan of Andy and cult of paint, really awesome collab.

[@joshsteffens2115]

They did this with Martian Ironearth! I was using it exclusively to base all my tyranids, and then they did something to it that dulled it down

[@worm1618]

What are you all using as your substitute for rhinox hide? My picks are AV Black Red and PA Mahogany.

[@richw0123]

As a model maker for over 20 years, I stopped relying on tiny expensive pots of the correct shade of paint and learned colour theory instead. To solve the problems of lack of vibrancy, buy some Phthalo Blue Green Shade , Hansa Yellow Medium, and Quinacridone Magenta. I use Golden Open slow drying acrylics, you can mix any colour you want or fix what you have, plus they come in large more economical tubes.

[@andrewsheridan7901]

Averland sunset is the first one that popped into my head. Brought a new pot recently and the difference in how it goes on is immediately noticeable but the final colour is also different

[@ethanbarrettdebattista5124]

Threw me through a loop seeing Emil wearing the Miniac sweater that I too am wearing as i watch this

[@chaoskvn]

Recognized it with Rakarth Flesh aswell - But tbh. it's a little bit better now. :D

[@gutsytoadsage6497]

Look how they massacred my boy Rhinox Hide

[@pancakemogul]

I can't. They talked so much about it but never showed how the new pot differed from the old one.

[@agnpaints2663]

Since its brown (red + black), they essentially added more black and messed around with the red a lil too. Its incredibly noticeable if you ever used the paint Old one looks like a strong dark chocolate, new one looks like moist soil

[@_stork_]

feels like just a filler vid for content. tested a 1year+ old rhinox vs one i bought last week, they look just to the same, painted a random bell half half ,you cannot tell the difference, tried all light settings on my lamp. now paint batches do change all the time, some of my macragge blue are different hues etc. depends on when it was made, how well shook it is etc.

[@agnpaints2663]

@@_stork_ old label vs new label?

[@Edwoodb3]

YES! I purchased Citadel Balor Brown (OG 90s Snakebite Leather) and was wondering why it looked different. I thought I just had to go home and give it a good long shake, as something might have happened to the pigments. Nope, even as I type this I've my old pot and new pot side by side and they are definitely different.

[@davecolwell725]

I love citadel paints because of their desaturated colours - I use them as one of my primary use case paints mostly because they last for a long time on the wet palette. If I want bright colours I never turn to citadel for that the scale colour artist are the go to for bright tones imo. I haven’t bought a new GW paint for a long while but I’m coming up to needing a new pot for a few colours, daemonette hide, sons of Horus green and squig orange in particular so I will have to see how they compare when I do. I also bought 3 pots of rhinox hide a while ago just because I didn’t want to lose the tone if the paint ever changes.

[@sim2570]

The only things I know about that, is that I heard on KZbin (The Painting Phase?/ Contraste Paint saved GW) from somebody that used to work at GW, that Khorn red were always from the start to dark for their taste. So since their new batches of Contaste paint, they probably used the opportunity to makes some change from their range. (???)

[@Lordbotch]

Are these the paint pots in the age of sigmar starter sets? If so I bet that explains the coverage changes. Love the channel BTW.

[@Andrew-cu8ww]

Corax white is very different! But better imo, much easier to work with.

[@Lolbsterbiscuit]

Russ Grey is a perfect example of this change. It went from sky blue with a tiny bit of aquamarine…to a sky blue with a bit of pink

[@joel7227]

It may be my own anecdotal experience, but it feels like alot of the base/layer paints have been thinned. Maybe no change in the pigment, but the consistency is absolutely different. Older base paints, it was almost mandatory to thin before painting. Some of the newer paints can be painted straight onto the model. I've got two distrinctly difference Corax, Retributor (Hard to tell because pigment heavy paint), Liberators (Hard to tell because pigment heavy paint) and Balthazaar's. Thinning is a natural challenge in painting- so it would make sense if they pre-thinned some to both, 1) Save money on materials, 2) Make it generally easier to paint.

[@OrakelofDeath]

I'm not using any citadel Colours on a regular basis. Switched to Vallejo in full. And the few Citadel Paints, that are still active on my palette are just there to be not replaced once used.

[@nicholassinnett2958]

I've noticed this with a couple of Citadels that I replaced in the last year or two. Barak-Nar Burgundy seems to have lost that vivid wine-red undertone that made it a great shadow colour for skin, and the new pot of Mephiston Red was less saturated than the one I was replacing, and a lot easier to tell apart from Evil Sunz Scarlet (my older pots were about the same brightness, but different amounts of saturation). I hate trying to get full opacity out of a poorly covering paint as much as everyone, but it's not like they covered too badly to begin with, so I don't know if I'd say it's worth the change.

[@ciddax754]

Wow .. that is drastic! I bet the new stuff is a lot cheaper to make. But personally I use Citadel paints only for the metalics. Years ago I was so frustrated about "Sunburst Yellow" that I looked around and found Lukas. Not cheap compared to the rest but on the same level compared to Citadel. But that stuff just did the job. A yellow so saturated with pigments you could even paint over black but still fluid enough to apply it without problems. Sadly the small pots are gone today. But you can get "small" tubes for artist with 75ml (Citadel has 12ml) for even a little bit less (2,74€ instead of 3,24€) for the better and even cheaper paint.

[@KingPrincess69]

I love old Rhinox Hide too. What's the alternative brand/paint?

[@druidobianco9734]

Nothing is beautiful as the old rhinox hide

[@agnpaints2663]

Kimera red + kimera black 1:1

[@KingPrincess69]

@@agnpaints2663 thanks!

[@BlackKara]

P3 if you like watering things down. Wet pallet is mandatory. But the Umber is the richest brown I've ever come across. I love it so much.

[@KingPrincess69]

@@BlackKara thanks! Wet palette and watering down is how I paint anyways. I'll give it a go

[@TeaIngyer]

My new Citadel paints are way different from my old ones. They come in dropper bottles, and they're much smoother to apply. Glad Duncan Rhodes is selling them. ;)

[@burnbobquist8999]

Thank you! Finally i know iam not crazy and stupid, because my new Sisters cloth was looking different, then the ones i painted 2 years ago, with the old pots!

[@robliptak93]

I use craft paints. Yes, other companies have changed their colors. Blick changed their Dark Blue Deep, which I use for a specific paint job (bird magnets sold at nature centers) and the blue is no longer deep blue. Frustrating since the original was the perfect color for a number of bird species. Maybe it is the “bean counters” getting involved in the process with the “we can save money if….”!

[@ZzokK]

omg rhinoxhide gate

[@ProudPlatypus]

Paint batches can sometimes differ, pigments can become unavailable, they might have changed it for other reasons, companies outside of artist quality paint brands are a little less open about info like that, though they can sometimes be squeezed for some details. Considering it was two red colours from across two different brands, I suspect something is up with the pigment they were using previously, rather than your other speculation, which would eventually lead to further changes across the ranges.

[@mattevans2435]

I don't use many Citadel paints, but I have long been a fan of their washes... until recently. It seems like they've changed something with their wash formulas, especially Nuln Oil. It applies different, it dries different...

[@hermionexped5854]

Hi! Thank you for your video. I bought a khorne red pot few days ago and notices that there was something different. I first thought that it was me , you know. Thought that my old pot had change with time, different light , something like that. I also bought a Mournfang Brown and it seems quite brighter than my old pot and less intense at the same time.

[@loiccoffier6197]

i have notice that last week !!!!! And now, i need to test all not terrible to test the new pots !

[@j1g2w3]

I definitely noticed a change in Wild Rider Red. I don't use many citadel paints except their reds, but it was obvious straight away.

[@anotherbrickinthegrey]

Thankfully I decided to stick with Vallejo (I've been using their paints for art and dioramas for years) when I placed an order for new paints for miniatures just 24 hours ago. Just started getting into Warhammer and almost everyone uses Citadel, which I have debated back and forth with myself about getting. I would be seriously regretting it now had I actually switched over to the GW paints instead of sticking with what I already know and absolutely love.

[@olofgeelnard3148]

Still have some old old pots. My original Agrax is almost out and my whole army is based around Enchanted Blue. Miss the Snot Green… the worst of changes was the washes Agrax and Nuln.

[@andrewkennedy9134]

Omg, I thought I was going mad....im so glad it's not me. Ive noticed the change in the reds and browns. I havent bought any other gw paints in a while as I have a big stock from magazine subs, but had bought rhinox and khorne. I'm not surprised gw didn't respond.....they are treating their customer base terribly currently. I've migrated most of my armies to a mix of vallejo, ak and the new army painter fanatic ranges and am delighted with them. The last few bits of the old gw stuff will be replaced with alternatives from these ranges as I run out.

[@paulfarr7]

I wonder if you could send both of them to have some kind of Chemical analysis done, to get actual proof the pots contain different contents 🤔

[@WreckItRolfe]

Changing colours without making it clear on the pot is stupid.

[@monkeyhammer]

I think this happens every few years because I've definitely had a few pots that I've replaced in the past to find it's a different colour. I have a feeling the metals have been reformulated a few times over the years.

[@IrateWizrd]

I remember when they replaced the older paint line with the white lids with paints they claimed were a "perfect match" and released a conversion chart to know which ones to buy. What a lie that was, I can't think of a single paint that I wanted to replace that was comparable

[@KafkasGalaxy]

some of my fav citadel colours I use all the time: caliban green, zandri dust, rhinox hide, ledbelcher, brass scorpion, really hope they don't change the caliban green or zandri dust

[@graefx]

I paint so little that changes like this can really derail long term work. I've got pots from 2010, 2016, and 2022. Changes like this can result in whole squads looking mismatched and it'd just think it was me it's very discouraging. For something that's meant to help the masses or new painters, I'd think it would have a larger negative impact on them than people that have painted tons and have a body of work to enjoy or know how to pivot to another range

[@ColVonBarring]

I'm still using some of the original paint pots! The hexagonal ones with the white lid. Ruby Red, Enchanted Blue, Goblin Green, Bad Moon Yellow, Bubonic Brown, Sunburst Yellow and Bronzed Flesh. When these run out I won't be buying ANY GW paints. btw, I've been wargaming and painting since 1968!

[@cameroncook9494]

I've had a lot of trouble with several different brand new pots of agrax earthshade in the last few months. The consistency is different and the matte medium is much quicker to settle in the pot than before. Overall kind of a hassle to work with now! Looking for alternatives.

[@17blaziken]

The best part of all if this is that most people buy citadel stuff because they started with it and want to maintain coherency with past stuff that they paint. If they change the formula, they are basically destroying the only reason they stay with this brand (because, let's say it, most people do not care of quality, but the price)

[@dustinasche]

Ooh, glad I'm a little stocked up on Rhinox Hide with two backup pots. I never liked Dryad Bark, so I'm sad to hear the new formula is more reminiscent of that paint.

[@R4diateur]

So I wasn't mad when my newer Khorne red felt slighlty more vibrant. Also, Balthazar Gold seems to have changed as well, it's more copper now (always been an unstable color from a pot to another, but still...). Metallics in general feel less glittery in their "metalicness", if that makes sense. It's good, and they have much more coverage, but I find they loss in shine very slighlty.

[@svenb6804]

I feel like Zandri Dust is now easier to work with, not only because of coverage, but also smoothness. I remember it being more chalky ( maybe back in the days I just didn,t know how to thin it right ), it seems so to me at least.

[@Hartwig870]

They didn't change that pot of screaming skull I just bought from them the other day. It came as a congealed, separated blob.

[@printitpaintit.2436]

I work with some of the main artists at GW and they told me over 6 months ago they were charging the formula similar to army painter. According my friend at GW they did use titanium white to boost opaqueness and you do that you always end up with a less saturated or slightly dulled colour.. I'm not a huge fan of citadel anyway and now I just finished buying most of the range I'm selling all 60 pots on unopened at half price.. They are all the original formula pots but there is no point in me using them when the replacements do not match, may as well stick with other brands!

[@MRybak-l2f]

I just bought a new pot of Cadian Fleshtone- It is noticeably different from my old pot- the new one is more of a suntanned color, less of a rosy skin tone.

[@Archaon6044]

Haven't watched this yet, but I will say at the outset that I have 2 pots of Balthazar gold. 1 I bought in 2015-ish, and one that I bought earlier this year as I expected the first one to run out soon, and they are very obviously different colours

[@bigolbearthejammydodger6527]

the de saturating of their paints has been a consistent trend over the last 30 years. they used to announce it as a positive - 'better new formula' etc - and better coverage has been historically well received by most mini painters because most are not pros or even particularly artistic and just want army ready paint jobs. See if you can land an ancient pot of titillating pink or worm purple to see the old extremely vibrant but poor coverage paints - look for the cylinder pots with soft white plastic lids. kind regards from a former gw store/box painter (back in the late 90's) edit - oh and for the pros and interested amateurs - if you want vibrancy - white undercoat (or undertones like pink, green yellow, beige etc) and inks. eg super vibrant red = white undercoat, yellow base coat, red inks.

[@brendanrobertson5966]

I just source mine from the Coat D'Arms range (the original 90s source) who have maintained their consistency. What you get now is the same as the 90s version.

[@xPaschminax]

I just noticed the same thing in Averland Sunset. It's a bit more desaturated, like they added a bit more white.