Garlic Adapting

[@heron6462]

I’ve been growing a type of overwintering garlic called Mikulov here in West Wales for about ten years. It is very tall and has very large cloves. Like you, I propagate it by choosing the largest cloves from the largest bulbs, but several years ago I tried an experiment: I chose the ten smallest cloves I that could find and planted them to see what would happen. The first crop gave a yield that was only about 10% smaller than average; the following year, the smallest cloves from _that_ crop gave the same yield as the conventionally grown crop. In other words, crops from the smallest cloves recovered to average size after two years.

[@REDGardens]

That is very interesting, especially that the yield was only 10% smaller. I think I am going have to add smaller cloves to the experiment next year!

[@philandhannahslittlefarm1464]

@red gardens because you need to add more layers of complexity to this experiment 😆

[@REDGardens]

@@philandhannahslittlefarm1464 Yep, apparently!!!

[@Ultrazaubererger]

Please do this experiment again a few times. I suspect the cloves from outside might do better in years with bad weather. They adapted to mature faster because that is optimal for avoiding disease or dry summers. This summer might have had favorable weather that gave the greenhouse cloves the edge but next year might be different.

[@REDGardens]

I think you might be right about the weather, and it will be interesting to see if different weather has different effects.

[@TheNewMediaoftheDawn]

Good point, even if the greenhouse plants produce better size, they may not be as well adapted in rough seasons.

[@victorsavinoff279]

There's a number of things that could be going on in this case. First, this lineage of garlic not going through sexual reproduction cycles does not mean that it is an exclusion from evolutionary processes. Random mutations in nuclear DNA (especially in those cells that the cloves develop from) still can be selected for, and thus, propagate across your garlic's gene pool. Second, keep in mind that both chloroplasts and mitochondria in plant cells have a DNA separate from that of the nucleus, thus creating gene pools of their own, and thus becoming a subject for evolutionary processes. It has been shown that, in humans, "organs such as colon, lung, and muscle, as well as their derived tumors, share nearly all mitochondrial hotspot point mutations" - because they are being selected for for different traits in different organs, and form separate gene pools, which evolve separately over time. Third, epigenetic modifications can also play a significant part in this whole process, switching on and off some genes in, basically, direct response to the external conditions.

[@REDGardens]

All very interesting stuff!

[@ximono]

My initial thought was epigenetics, but like you say, there are so many mechanisms and factors at play here.

[@fxm5715]

@@ximono Yes, I was thinkinging the epigenome, which, as I understand it, can change with environmental influence, without altering the actual genome, and is also heritable. From what I've read, they are basically pointers to different locations on the existing genome, turning bits and pieces of instruction on and off, or increasing or decreasing the influence of existing systems. As I recall, there's a lot of good information about it in Sean Carroll's book, "Endless Forms Most Beautiful: The New Science of Evolutionary Development" www.amazon.com/Endless-Forms-Most-Beautiful-Science/dp/0393327795 It's mostly about the genetic mechanisms controlling embryonic development in all multicellular Earth life. A fascinating read.

[@banjoemily3852]

I got my Ph.D in plant mitochondrial genetics, so I have some insight here. While mammalian mitochondria have very high mutation rates, the dynamics in plant mitochondria are very different. The mutation rates of plant mitochondria are very low and variation within the mitochondrial population is suppressed. Chloroplast dynamics are a little different, but not a convincing explanation. Epigenetic changes to nuclear genes seems the most likely explanation to me.

[@nickberndsen]

@@banjoemily3852 only in a RED gardens thread do you find comments from a plant mitochondrial genetics PhD

[@philandhannahslittlefarm1464]

I can't even remember where I planted the carrots.. you must have a very detailed journal!! I would get so confused about which was which lol. I really enjoyed this video!

[@REDGardens]

Yeah, it does get confusing at times. I keep very careful records (most of the time) and it helps that I keep very similar rotation planting plans each year. Thanks!

[@tkorkunckaya]

I've been watching you for many years now. There is no end or conclusion for those uncontrolled trials. I know what works for me, pros: be happy with them, cons on the other side, just forget about it. A man's life is too short for finding the perfect (!) at all. Thanks for your valuable sharing.

[@REDGardens]

Thanks for watching for all those years!

[@James.5703]

I started meticulously logging things about my garden a few years ago, mainly because of your content and how interesting i find it. But, i have since had a second child so, time and energy no longer permit and i'm happier for it. My point is that; sometimes you dont need a great depth of knowledge, you can just be happy knowing that you'll get a satisfactory result.

[@REDGardens]

Yeah, it does take a lot of time, and effort, and sometimes it is better to just be satisfied with a decent result!!

[@sanjuansteve]

I love grazing on small and delicate garlic greens from my garden! :D

[@teatimetraveller]

We grew several varieties in one of our tunnels this year including cloves gifted to me by a local friend who has saved her own sets for about 5 years. The local variety performed the worst although all the garlic did much better than outdoor crops. We'll definitely do it again as it was a very successful crop. It was your last film about growing garlic in tunnels which led me to do it so thanks very much for the inspiration.

[@REDGardens]

That is very interesting, and cool to know that you are having success with growing in the tunnel!

[@Parallax3599]

I never thought garlic would leave me with so many questions. Perhaps this would be a good line of questioning for a garlic-scientist, if such a thing exists. Great video as always.

[@tomjones4318]

Sweet lady down the street gave me lots of her elephant garlic last year. It took off with no transplant shock and made the biggest garlic I ever saw and hundreds of corms. What a gift.

[@REDGardens]

Elephant garlic can be enormous. I grew it for a while, but found I didn’t like using it as much in the kitchen.

[@zokowawa]

This is why I love this channel! What an awesome way to find out whether all these stories and intuitions and theories are somewhat true. To set up an experiment like this takes a lot more care and deliberation than the average person can put in to take it all the way to completion over a season. But you did it. And the results are food for thought, while the garlic itself is food for the coming winter! Excellent

[@REDGardens]

Thank you! It does take effort and consistency, which I don't always have, so it is great to be able to share when I do follow through with interesting results. Also wonderful to have other people appreciate my efforts!!

[@ronk4073]

The delay in development of the garlic grown outside from cloves grown inside the polytunnel suggests those cloves were programmed for a warmer environment. Other factors like day light hours should be the same.

[@REDGardens]

That is what I am thinking happened. They were possibly waiting for more heat, as either a general high temperature, or more cumulative warmth over time (i.e. growing degree days)

[@nahblue]

Maybe it's adjusted in the sense that they would have a "timer" that measures time in degrees times days, i.e time passes slower at lower temps.

[@gailwarrington3841]

Wow how interesting, thanks Bruce love your videos 👍

[@Tsuchimursu]

I've been wondering about these questions myself, thanks for pioneering for us!

[@owendavies8227]

There are a number of things that I think are going on here: -fewer rust spores on the polytunnel garlic cloves -since the polytunnel garlic cloves are larger, they might take a week or two longer to turn all the stored sugars into leaf and root, so the maturity might be a week or two later -somatic selection - this is a catch all term that plant breeders use to refer to anything that is selected for something that is not necessarily genetic, in this case, larger cloves making larger bulbs, and maybe an unrelated branching mutation

[@gabrielrebelo]

I would bet on fewer rust spores on the polytunnel garlic cloves

[@REDGardens]

Yeah, less rust would definitely be a factor for why the garlic inside the polytunnel grew bigger. Interestingly I noticed similar rust infection on the pairs of plants in the outside gardens, so not sure it had an impact in the outside/inside divergence. Interesting thought about the time taken to convert energy/nutrients in the clove. Not sure if this would account for the differences I saw, but it could be part of the story.

[@GeertDeweerdt]

After a test two years ago, I planted half of my garlic last autumn in the polytunnel (I bought the cloves, no selction involved ;-). I did this because all garlic outside gets always rust in the last weeks of growth. The result was spectacular. The harvest was nearly twice as big. Plants in the polytunnel got (almost) no rust and could grow about two weeks longer.

[@REDGardens]

@@GeertDeweerdt I have noticed similar lack of rust in the polytunnel.

[@BracesandBoots1]

Glad to see you back on my feed. Even though I'm subscribed, you haven't shown up on my feed for 5 months. I thought you had tired of KZbin. Happy to see it's just an algorithm. I don't know what to do about it, except looking for your channel manually.

[@REDGardens]

Still here, though haven't been uploading as often as I would like. This might be why the algorithm ripped me from your feed, but I do get that with other channels I am subscribed to. I try to remember to use the bell icon for notification.

[@NashvilleMonkey1000]

I've read a few papers on vegetatively propagated plants, saying that things like strawberry runners allow more mutation to the cells that propagate them, thus giving them more darwin powers. Also vegetatively propagater plants can collect viruses over a long time, and that tissue culture is used to clean up the stock. Our garlic has been growing in our food forest since fifty years ago, and they bottlenecked at ten plants thirteen years ago, and grew them to vast numbers afterwards. I've not been artificially selecting them for size, but use their presence in the yard as storage and as genetic diversity~

[@aenorist2431]

Epigenetics are a thing. Organisms can "evolve" to a certain degree within their lifetime, by essentially activating and deactivating parts of their (constant, preexisting) DNA depending on circumstances.

[@REDGardens]

Interesting possibilities.

[@matthew4497]

Sure, it makes identical twins different, but it's hard to control from my understanding. You can often trigger genes by stressing the organism at particular stages of development, or some sort of constant bombardment. Think of greater sun exposure darkening skin. The stress of UV rays causes the cell to grow dark discs over top of the nucleus (melanocytes) to prevent genetic destruction. It's hard to tell if that relates to what is happening here.

[@matthew4497]

Maybe my example is bad because, while methylation (for epigenetic manipulation) does occur due to DNA damage, it doesn't appear to be the same mechanism that causes melanocytes to form.

[@sup_1312]

I want to add that organisms don't activate or deactivate their dna by themselves, its just something that happens due to certain conditions, meaning that the plants wont necessarily will grow bigger, they could also grow smaller, deformed, etc.

[@joelmattsson9353]

@@matthew4497 while individual epigenetic changes may be hard to predict if they'll help, hurt, or neither, i would think that, overall, the net sum of epigenetic changes would tend towards helping the organism better adapt to the conditions it finds itself in. That is, from my understanding, their evolutionary purpose. Though i admit my knowledge in this area is limited, I am simply some jerk on the internet with an opinion.

[@DJ-uk5mm]

Really interesting experiment. Thanks for sharing

[@REDGardens]

:)

[@ColinHopperRevival]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing

[@REDGardens]

:)

[@docster26]

Very interesting video. Your garlic looks amazing! Curious what variety you are growing? Would love to see a video on tips and advice (density, spacing, amendments, etc) on growing such large garlic!

[@michaeltoner1993]

Wow that is some impressive garlic!

[@REDGardens]

🙂

[@propertystuff7221]

Fascinating!

[@REDGardens]

:)

[@andrewmaclennan1818]

Another amazing video, I would be interested in seeing the continued experiment over the next few years to see if either polythene or external cloves adapt and which does better. Very interesting experiment! Maybe you could do a video in the winter when you have time on your tracking methods and journal keeping methods.

[@REDGardens]

Thanks! I'll keep your video suggestion in mind, a few people have made similar requests.

[@Growveguk]

What an amazing garlic crop! I have to concur that the cloves must have some ability for short term programming to hopefully give it an edge from its previous growing conditions.

[@REDGardens]

Thanks! I do find it odd that whatever is happening actually produces better result in a less beneficial climate!

[@Growveguk]

@@REDGardens What a year it's been so far. My garlic was good, onions are the same bit tomatoes are way behind this year, maybe as much as 6 weeks! Let's hope we have a long Indian summer into November👍

[@REDGardens]

@@Growveguk It has been an interesting year, and I’ve had good growth on a lot of things.

[@nickberndsen]

he is so good

[@sheelaghomalley3292]

Very interesting . Thank you

[@REDGardens]

🙂

[@robertnoel2363]

Holy Moses! I can't begin to break down all the amazing points of your series of great videos. But, I will be "adapting" my garlic this season.

[@REDGardens]

Thanks!! Glad you are getting a lot out of my videos!

[@gwenscoble6229]

Last year was my first growing garlic. I bought a softneck, and a hardneck variety. Most advice stated a 150mm (6") planting distance, but one said 300mm (12"). Apparently, garlic roots restrict themselves, if they encounter other garlic roots. I planted at 300mm intervals. I was impressed by the results, larger bulbs than the original, but also smaller ones as well. The only downside was that 1 softneck had got white rot☹. Not wanting to further contaminate my raised beds, I have regrown selected cloves in 4 containers. 2 growsacks previously used for tomatoes, with added BF&B, and 2 pots 450mm (18") diameter, previously used for potatoes. 4 cloves in the growsacks and 5 in the pots. I think the crop is not as large as last year but they were more closely planted and dependent on the water and nutrients in each container. 2 bulbs had onion white rot, but 1 was a hard neck so I don't think it was carried over on the clove. With so much composted green waste being used in growbags, and my own collection from my local recycling centre, can we be sure brought in compost is free of soil born disease? I have never seen onion white rot on my leeks, nor the onions I grew overwinter in a layer of farmyard manure, which grew potatoes, previously. Too many variables! Thank you for a thought provoking video.

[@REDGardens]

Yeah, there can be a lot of variables! Thanks for sharing your experiences, I am glad that I have not had to deal with white rot! It is hard to know if we are importing disease problems into out gardens, and is one of the downsides of bringing fertility and plant material in from elsewhere.

[@Reinier020]

Thanks for the video. Will look at it tomorrow morning

[@REDGardens]

:)

[@ParadeTheGospel]

Loooove garlic and this video randomly pops up even though I wasn't specifically looking for it. I am hoping to grow our own soon. Haven't gotten around to doing it yet.

[@ThisIsATireFire]

You should! They are ridiculously easy! I'm going cheap this time and just using some leftover garlic from the grocery store that's starting to sprout on the kitchen counter. In the spring when the scapes come up, you can let a couple go to see the bulbils on top (you can treat them like mini garlic) but definitely cut the rest of the scapes to get bigger bulbs. The scapes are great in stir fries or other places where you want a mild garlic flavor. But they're the best before they start to uncurl. They get tougher and more fibrous at that point. It's an easy fun tasty plant, I hope you give growing it a try.

[@GardensforLife]

Very interesting! Thanks a mil Bruce! Keep up the good work. We've just grown and harvested elephant garlic for the first time, of course it's in the leek family but it tastes exactly like garlic with half the spice. :D

[@newenglandyankeeliving5052]

I only recently found your channel and have been binging on your content as of late. I am greatly enjoying it. First time I was watching your videos I’m thinking: this guy sounds Canadian but he keeps saying Ireland, quite happy to find out I’m not crazy lol.

[@argentvixen]

Great observations! Of course they adapt. Organisms (especially plants) don't need to change their genome to change how they express traits. Its called epigenetics and it's really fascinating to study. I think the disparity you are addressing here has to do with your definition of "better" vs the plants goals. It is not interested in feeding you, only in propagating itself. This translates to not only the healthiest clone of itself but also the one that can survive the winter if left to its own devices. The outside cloves mature and prepare for winter early because that brings them the greatest chance for success when not lifted and stored, which it can't actually factor into its survival strategy. The poly house garlic is tricked, which gives you the outcome you value but would not be the plants best strategy left to its own devices.

[@dubdavis407]

I think it would be interesting to factor in the taste of the garlic as well. I find my homegrown (outside) garlic to be much more mellow and aromatic than the store bought version.

[@krimmer66]

Amazing crops! A soil test of plots would be interesting as well. Perhaps certain nutrients in the tunnel are not being washed away due to rains. I've also planted small cloves and each year they do get bigger.. just as a bulbet(seed from the flower) will take 2-4 years to develop into a full sized bulb. 3 years ago I started with a 1000 smallish cloves and now have 16 000 head of small to large bulbs with nice sized cloves.. I started my veganic farm on heavy clay soil. You make me want to get a polytunnel haha.

[@krimmer66]

I also bought a variety from France that was the size of my fist. The first year the cloves planted barely survived, giving be hundreds of small bulbs. For 2 years I watched it struggle, each year saying to myself 'cut your losses, ditch it'... it's the 3rd year i've replanted it and it paid off, though still small compared to the original, some are a sellable size which makes me happy as it is my only softneck variety.

[@kurt5490]

You're looking happy & healthy! I hope that's the case.

[@REDGardens]

Yes, thanks.

[@nickschremmer1486]

Hello! The secondary growth is so intriguing to me. I've never seen/heard anything like that before with garlic. I was curious if they also produce more than one scape, if it's a hardneck variety. If that's the case you have some amazing garlic!

[@REDGardens]

Yes, it is strange, and I wish I hade been more attentive of when and in what conditions it happens. It is soft neck garlic so don’t get any scapes.

[@jamesseery2317]

Great video 👍

[@REDGardens]

thanks!

[@jeshurunfarm]

I am no expert, but I agree with your logics. Respect from Africa 🇿🇦

[@acctsys]

I think the plant aims to propagate as soon as possible. Earlier maturity outside of those "accustomed" to outside conditions may be increasing the likelihood of the plant finishing propagation before winter.

[@REDGardens]

That is an interesting idea, though there is such a long time from the the plants stop growing in the early summer before the winter comes, and I often wonder why this is the case.

[@davidarundel6187]

It's usually planted at winter Solstice - new moon, & harvested, on summer Solstice, full moon. Garlic also likes compost as it's a gross feeder - it's also good to plant all around your garden, to deter pests, like Aphids & other insects.

[@REDGardens]

I tend to plant and harvest close to the solstice, but independent of the moon cycles. Lots of compost does help.

[@davidarundel6187]

@@REDGardens a Tincture, from the leaves, would make a good insect deterent in, vegetable gardens, fruit trees & flower gardens.

[@jungle6201]

So interesting to see the differences between lineages of garlic just through vegetative reproduction. Love the content and If you ever plan on selling some cloves I would love to buy some. Im I'm the north of Ireland so my climate should be very similar to yours.

[@REDGardens]

Thanks! Not sure if I have any to sell this season, as I have a few local requests, but perhaps next year.

[@newenglandyankeeliving5052]

Do you compost the rats/mice that you cull ? I am in the midst of our ongoing battle with mice and finally making headway. I wanna know if I can compost the cadavers. I am also building a worm digester for dog poop so that’s sn option too

[@ThisIsATireFire]

I compost any freezer burnt meat that isn't cooked and fed to the chickens or dogs. I turn the pile, open a hole in the middle at least a foot deep and drop in the meat and whatever else I've cleaned out of the fridge and freezer, close it back up making sure that there's at least a foot of compost above it and on all sides so that the dogs or wild animals can't smell it. Completely gone within about 6 weeks in a very active compost pile. Year before last I buried the remains after processing of the deer my husband got under one of my flower beds. About a foot deep to keep the dog from digging it back up. I might still be able to find the skull, but that's significantly larger than mice or rats. So you definitely can, but it makes some people squeamish.

[@TheNewMediaoftheDawn]

Very difficult to pin down all factors like u said, but those are nice bulbs. As for garlic getting bigger year over year, clove size and fertility would be my top guess. Fertility is a huge one. Paul Gautschi grows giant garlic in his fertile garden….

[@rochrich1223]

It does sound like the garlic given a longer growing season passed the info to following generations. That they did better outside could mean you would benefit from a longer season garlic. One way to isolate the size clove has on results is to plant cloves of the same size. I would predict the poly t cloves would still yield better particularly if you harvested at the same final stage of development.

[@williambehling7816]

First off I really love your videos, I like your measured and fact-based approach to gardening. I work in a potato breeding and genetics program and we see similar phenomenon on a regular basis. For example, when we grew the variety 'Ranger Russet' in a trial a couple years ago we noticed a marked difference in tuber shape, size, and yield based on the source of seed. Also, plants coming from tissue culture sometimes grow differently than plants grown from seed tubers. You can also see drastic differences from geneticly identical fruit tree varieties as well. For example 'Gala' and Royal Gala' apple varieties are essentially identical. But, a minor mutation in a Gala tree resulted in apples with redder skins. This mutated strain or "sport" was then propagated as a new variety. So, your polytunnel garlic may well be unique and adapted to the climate of the polytunnel. But as you said, you can't rule out your increased skill as a gardener or the size of the cloves you plant. Plants are so fascinating aren't they?

[@REDGardens]

Thank you! That is very interesting. There is so much we don't know, and so much to learn!

[@solarcrystal5494]

does the criteria for "best bulbs" include flavor?

[@REDGardens]

No, it hasn't. I just use size and other physical attributes. But it would be interesting to include taste.

[@biancat7761]

Please review the seed chain system from Japan! I think it's a bit of an investment at the start, but super cheap after you have the equipment. It can save you transplanting and seeding by hours! Also so happy I'm here early! My favourite gardening channel!

[@REDGardens]

Thank you!! That system is really interesting and perhaps when I develop more of the larger growing space I could justify investing in that.

[@biancat7761]

@@REDGardens..... Your garden is bloody huge! What you manage is definitely not a small garden patch! Haha When I have my plot I'm Def gonna invest. I think saving my back and knees early on will reward me later in life! Cant wait for your next video!

[@REDGardens]

@@biancat7761 It is big, though I tend to sow small batches of things in each of the gardens. I think the propagation systems like that are designed for long rows and big batches of crops.

[@elibennett3034]

I would repeat the experiment but send samples from the batches for compositional analysis. I think the different growing conditions result in different nutrient availability, uptake, and use. You may find that the reserves available in the planting cloves may vary between the batches, affecting growth in the following year.

[@neverhomecompanion5087]

Genotype may remain constant, but phenotype can change. Phenotype varies with conditions. What makes me curious is why garlic seems to fare so well in polyculture. I grow a succession of polycultures (not for research - it's just easier for me that way) and there are things that work well, but I never have the time to figure out why. You previously said that the polyculture model still needs work in your context - any updates?

[@REDGardens]

I have changed the method for structuring the Polyculture Garden to more of a cloistering method. I have had a lot more success with it in general, but also lots to change as Sony crops still did very poorly. I’m planning a video on it soon.

[@SDKsa1]

Didnt watch the whole vid so you might emphasis this point about the garlic adapting. My very unknowledgeable hypothesis is that selecting bigger bulbs gives the plant more nutrients to work with during their initial sprout. Thus making the plant grow quicker and arrive at the point where its starts creating cloves. Basically what I'm saying is by using bigger and bigger cloves, you reduce the time of the growing phase and allowing more time for storing-energy-in-the-cloves phase. Don't know If I'm making alot of sense or not.

[@SDKsa1]

Now back to the vid.

[@TheNewtMC]

All the sunny places in my yard are reserved for squash and tomatos, so I have to plant garlic in the shade. though the bulbs I receive are small, its much better then month old garlic in my opinion.

[@jetblack2602]

Put some of the garlic between the tomatos, both are going to support each other.

[@fadetounforgiven]

0:20 My parents used to sometimes buy potatoes to use as "seed" for the next season, but other times they used what was left from the previous one. However, potatoes were never (at least, highly unlikely) put in the ground in one piece. As time passes, they develope what we call "eyes", that's their, hummm, stems?, and they rarely have only one unless it's too small or didn't have enough time to develope more. So, they were cut into pieces, as many as stems, and making sure each piece has one stem, obviously. Each of those pieces would make a new potato plant. So, for the same number of potatoes, you get more plants.

[@julienhennequart33]

You can even just use the peel of the potato to make a new potato plant. I've seen peels sprout in my compost heap, but the plants grow slower at the begining since they have less carbohydrates stored in the tuber, or what is left of it.

[@fadetounforgiven]

@@julienhennequart33 as long as you have those stems, that will work but, as you say, they will grow slower the way you say. Given a number of stems, you just have to try and slice it in kind of even sized pieces to maximize their potential.

[@REDGardens]

Yes, it is very common to cut up the potatoes used for seed. I have heard that this can reduce the number of potatoes that grow on each plant, but that each one will be bigger, and that the same result can be achieved by rubbing off some of the sprouts from the 'eyes'. I haven't tried this, as I tend to just plant seed potatoes directly, and I like to give each of the early potatoes a good head start with the extra energy of the full potato. But cutting is a good way to use the larger potatoes for seed, and to be able to eat more of last year's crop.

[@fadetounforgiven]

​@@REDGardens honored to hear from you. Truth be told, I have no actual experience to compare. They have always been cut when it comes to planting where I live. I guess it makes sense what you say about rubbing off some of the sprouts as that is less competition as the plant starts to grow. By the way, my mother (and I guess more people around here) used to add some wood ashes to the bucket where the sliced potatoes were carried when planting, as it should work as a fertilizer. The only similar experience I've had, and yet I did not see the results by myself so this should be taken with a grain of salt, is from more than thirty years ago. I was somewhere around ten and went with my family to help with potato planting at my cousins', who were (and obviously are) my age. As it's usual here, someone makes a groove in the ground with their tractor, the rest of us would place a few pieces of potatoes some 30-40 centimeters apart, enough to cover the whole groove, and repeat until the whole piece of land is planted or you run out of seed, most of the times the first should happen. But my cousins and I, being young and not wanting to work too much, instead of placing one at a time, we would leave two, three... a whole bunch, just to finish sooner. Not that it actually worked as, as I said, they would usually have way more seed than need, but we did it anyway. I never saw what happened, but my cousins told me that in the area where we did that, there were really big potatoes and, from what I understood, it seems that being so close to one another, touching each other, they kind of fusioned with each other. So, if this is true, I guess you could quite certainly say that if you leave the whole potatoe, you may have bigger potatoes in the end, but I would also say that you are actually giving the plant a good head start, but it's development will depend on more things, as usual. Thanks for answering and for sharing your experiences with us!

[@REDGardens]

@@fadetounforgiven I had heard that it was common to dust the cut part of the seed potato with wood ash to stop it rotting or decomposing. No doubt it would also provide sown fertility.

[@gabriellakadar]

What variety of garlic is shown at the beginning of the video? They look like Artichoke garlic/softnecks. I grow hardnecks and rocambole but the maximum is 6 to 7 cloves. I've grown Artichoke garlic in the past and they do grow secondary stems and cloves on their stems above the soil line but they don't like Toronto. They prefer a warmer climate.

[@zazugee]

i think it's related to epigenetics the variety could be the same but the environment would affect how each glove will develop into the next cycle for example, it will adapt to the poly-tunnel, but then the environment changed, and a certain traits end being expressed differently as it get adapted to it, then you take it outside, so it had different characteristics from same variety that been growing outside that got used to mature earlier because of dry summer, and the poly-tunnel gloves seems to be adapted to warm humid environment so it was set to mature later and grow larger i also notice lot of plants flowering earlier while they are smaller, when faced with drought condition or if you water them less i wonder if the seeds of such plants then become set to flower earlier than seeds from same variety that flowered later even tho in this case it's not about flowering but the bulbs development and maturity seems related to humidity people often think that genes express themselves like in a dumb mechanical manner but actually they are like small algorithms that react to external stimulus the talk about mutations and trait selection isn't something that could happen in just a couple of generation it needs dozen or more generations for trait selection to happen naturally if you select manually, you also need to cross breed many times to get ride of undesirable traits that arn't expressed often, but they get passed into next gen anyway about the doing better thing, from the POV of the plant, growing bigger cloves isn't what the plant define as better growing bigger leaves means the plant is more at risk of drying and dying during a dry spell, so really, smaller plants with smaller leaves are more adapted to outside conditions because they are more resilient even if it means to produce smaller cloves (bc the plant will grow and survive irrespective of the side of the clove and it's not it's end goal)

[@REDGardens]

Makes sense. So much more to learn!

[@thebackyardbrewer5611]

Is the garlic a soft or hard neck variety? I'm still trying to get my head around garlic growing and I'm on my second season with a warm tolerant Italian variety but this year they're not going as well as last. I'm trying to understand the differences and if they matter or not

[@ThisIsATireFire]

He mentioned in another comment that it's a softneck variety and he gets no scapes. From my understanding, softneck works best in areas where the ground doesn't freeze hard and hardneck is best suited for places where the ground does freeze and get colder. But no matter what, they both need a cold season, so Florida residents who want to grow their own garlic usually over winter it in the fridge.

[@MIck1-10]

Interesting as always, I found an old garlic build in a draw in the shed , not sure how old it is could be last years or older. So I planted the cloves in pots just to see, already have some shoots appearing, what’s the oldest cloves that have grown ? Thanks again.

[@REDGardens]

Thanks! It will be interesting to see how well the plants from that old clove will grow. I have only grown for bulbs from the previous year, only 4-5 months after harvesting.

[@dangibbon7005]

Surely it's to do with stored energy, i.e. those grown in the favourable conditions of the poly tunnel hav less hassle from wind and more warmth and therefore expend less energy staying upright and keeping leaves green, and are able to store more energy In the bulb for the next year.

[@MaybeSomeday833]

Sounds like epigenetics at work. The garlic is "turning on", or expressing, genes relevant to its growing conditions, but not changing its genetic code. And by only planting the cloves from the largest bulbs, YOU are selecting those plants (clones) that are successfully expressing the qualities you want.

[@steveneason893]

You need to try growing hardneck types. I have a climate similar to Ireland and obtain much better results with hardneck types. (I grow roughly 2500 bulbs per season, all hardneck.)

[@REDGardens]

That is interesting. Hard neck varieties are not so common here in Ireland for some reason.

[@julianvanostrand3275]

What could be going on is a concept called epigenetic change. Cloves of garlic are a clone of the parent plant but genes get activated or inactivated depending on the environment. A very interesting example of this in humans is the so called "Dutch Hunger Winter" which can be easily researched. Epigenetic changes provide for a good biological explanation for what might be going on

[@REDGardens]

Thanks for that, sounds interesting.

[@tkorkunckaya]

And by the way, please let us know why you are not using your own potatoes for seeding? Storage problems? Thanks.

[@REDGardens]

Mainly blight issues, which can be a big problem around here, and the main way of spreading is apparently in the stored tubers being replanted. And apparently viruses can build up in the tubers that can reduce yields over a few years. These two things are the main reasons, but I do want to start reusing my own tubers in the future, and perhaps do a similar side by side comparison as with the garlic.

[@MrCntryjoe]

Will garlic seed? Where our tops are thrown is a patch shows many genetic variations and unique.

[@ardenthebibliophile]

It could be an epigenetic change instead of a true genetic variation. There's a few mechanisms, one of which is DNA methylation. In either case you could have an epigenetic "strain" that turns up/down some property in the plant

[@trillium7582]

This is very amazing to me, it makes me think half-seriously that you're about to discover that Lamarck was right after all. Very interesting video! I would love to know, if you can share, what your workflow is for saving cloves for replanting. Do you separate out the best bulbs as you're beginning the storage process, and do all of your replanting from those? When you're breaking up bulbs for replanting, do you put aside the smaller cloves from each bulb for immediate use for processing? Thank you for sharing your explorations, they're extraordinary.

[@REDGardens]

Thank you! Had to google Lamark - interesting stuff! I usually select the best bulbs for planting when they have finished drying, trying to pick the ones with the best shape, and biggest cloves, and trying to avoid the secondary growth thing if I can. These are stored separately, and we store the rest or eating. this season I left 1/3 of the polytunnel batch to grow longer, so have fewer bulbs to select from, but they most of them should be bigger than the others in that were harvested earlier. When I break up the bulbs in early winter for planting, I separate out the smaller cloves for eating, they end up in a bowl in our kitchen counter for immediate use.

[@gebhardt244]

Do you not have problems with garlic and onions repeating at the same field ....

[@REDGardens]

I generally move them as part of the crop rotation, so they are not in the same bed or area of the garden for quite a few years, but the garden is small, so they are not too far away from where they grew the previous year. But I haven't noticed any issues.

[@timeflysintheshop]

Normally I try to plant our garlic in late October or November. Sometimes I don't get around to it till December and it still grows well enough. One year, I really dropped the ball and did not get the garlic planted until MAY! I thought it would just grow in the later summer and I would just need to water it and I would still get a crop. NOPE! It grew very little, and never developed a scape. I pulled a few and they were still one clove! I thought all was lost, and I would start over, but they did not die. So I left them alone and had no garlic to harvest that year. But after the winter they TOOK OFF! I removed the scapes as usual, and harvested in early July. About half the garlic had split and I had a bunch of smaller cloves, but the other half did not split and I had the largest garlic I ever grew! Not really surprising given they were in the ground over a year!!! Somehow the garlic could tell what time of year it was by how many hours of daylight or something and adjusted. Or maybe they were planted a little deeper than the others? I don't know, but there are some other variables you could mess with if you want to become the Garlic GURU of the internet! 😁

[@REDGardens]

That is interesting, thanks for sharing. Garlic does seem to stop growing each year based on daylength or something similar, so not surprise the legally lay planting of garlic produced only a small single clove. I have had those single cloves in my gardens even with the usual early winter planting. I suspect is is from plants that are really struggling, and they produce this small round bulb that is actually a single really large clove. I usually don’t grow them, but perhaps for next year I will try to grow them.

[@BeckJoseR]

Plants can change, even through vegetative propagation. This is the case for all plants. We see this here in the USA with our Apple Trees. All our apples come from graftings. Though, these apples aren't the same as those 100 years ago. I saw something personally in my Pothos vine. It's a variegated type, but as i take cuttings of the less variegated branches, those vegetative propagation have less and less variegation. We even see this is human Twins. The environment has an affect on our cells. I recommend researching epigenetics

[@REDGardens]

Interesting stuff!

[@jas_critic9361]

Does the garlic taste good?

[@timeflysintheshop]

When you get thet weird second growth, do you get more than one scape from each plant? Its as if your first plant split before it matured.

[@REDGardens]

It is kind of like the first plant split its cloves before it matured, as if it realised it had more capacity to grow. There aren’t any scapes as it is a soft neck variety.

[@fxm5715]

@@REDGardens It sounds very much like the behavior of multiplier onions, which I grow. (I grow "green mountain potato onions" which I first learned about from the Skill Cult: kzbin.infosearch?query=potato%20onions) In my experience with the onions, while the seed onion may grow a scape, since it is technically its second season, the side onions, which are essentially just larger, more distinctly separate cloves, grow leaves but no scapes.

[@timeflysintheshop]

When are you replanting? What month?

[@REDGardens]

Probably in November.

[@rawdata678]

Why would garlic ignore selection's outcomes? It does for sure, maybe fenotypes' differences are less clear aboce the soil.

[@elenidemos]

Yes they are clones. But a copy of a copy is still slightly different to the original. So Yes garlic does adapt, but clove size & strength are also in play with your experiment. Warmer, more protected varieties will tend to grow larger & more resilient bulbs over their generations. Adaptation happens quicker then most will think possible.

[@kattsragz320]

Do they taste different, how do they taste?

[@REDGardens]

I haven't compared them yet, but good question.

[@r.perkins2103]

“The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.” - Albert Einstein Soil biology could also have an effect, as outdoor soil gets frozen. Try a straw mulch outside overwinter. Keep on experimenting !

[@REDGardens]

I think about that quote quite often, it is so true!

[@PaleGhost69]

I think it's the clone idea. The bigger ones are just random mutations from being grown over and over again, i.e. genetic fluctuation through incorrect cell division. It could even just be it regrowing while thinking it's a different part of the plant. Sorta like if you could cut off a finger and it would regrow the rest based on the order. Like a middle finger thinks it's a pinky so it regrows the rest of the hand to match it's size as a pinky. Side note: it's crazy to think just how many plants that humans propagate are all clones of a few mother plants that have been spread throughout the world.

[@REDGardens]

Interesting idea. I am not sure it would bene random mutations from growing over and over again that would explain the observations I made, as it there was considerable consistency between all of the inside vs outside cloves, and only a few years to adapt. It must be something within the growth of the cloves themselves. It is crazy how much we rely on clones!

[@PaleGhost69]

@@REDGardens What if you tried to select for a specific plant's growth and bulb pattern instead of the biggest bulbs of each individual plant? When you're only making 1 or 2 clones of each plant it's hard to isolate which ones are caused by random mutation over a possible 6,000 year history of cultivation and which are just regrowth patterns without comparing form molds from hundreds of thousands of specimen. It would be interesting to try a test splitting one of the gardens into "biggest bulb of each plant" vs "every bulb from the best plants."

[@christal2641]

What is crazy is that pros are ignoring all the risks that monoculture entails. Monoculture of CLONES is far, far riskier yet! We are headed for massive famines like Ireland had when the Lunker potato was nearly the ONLY variety grown on the Isle.

[@fredrickvanolphen3299]

I wouldn't be surprised if something like epigenetics occurs with plants.

[@Theorimlig]

Yeah, I also thought it might be an epigenetic change.

[@REDGardens]

It could be a key factor.

[@seangray5897]

Yep, all organisms experience epigenetics :)

[@alanargent5422]

Maybe you just love the garlic a bit more each year, and they know it....

[@REDGardens]

I don't think I loved one batch more than the other ... but perhaps.

[@ranchoraccolto]

And growing a few from outside inside?

[@REDGardens]

I haven't tried that, but would be good to add that to the exploration!

[@benjaminwicks-tucker4596]

Epigenetics can have a profound effect over the course of a few generations

[@REDGardens]

Apparently!

[@cornboi3227]

go away mom, I'm watching garlic eugenics

[@REDGardens]

Haha

[@noahholkeboer1891]

Epigenetic factors?

[@REDGardens]

Possibly.

[@guymansford7123]

Fascinating video and thanks for trying to take a scientific approach. I think there is a lot of confusion about genetics and how they work. Yes garlic are all clones so any change through chance mutations will probably be pretty slow (although can't be totally discounted). But DNA is a catalogue of the possible things that particular plant can do. Which genes are switched on and actually expressed can certainly vary and for instance in humans can pass down several generations affecting the phenotype ie how you look, for many years. So starvation in your grandmother can affect your growth and your chance of heart disease even though your DNA hasn't been changed. I suspect that is what is happening in the polytunnel, with the garlic switching on genes that work best in that environment and then those genes still being expressed next year in the cloned plant. Hope this rambling makes sense.

[@WhichDoctor1]

do garlic have epigenetics? I'm not sure if I've ever heard scientists talk about epigenetics in plants but it would seem like the most obvious answer to me

[@REDGardens]

A few people have mentioned that, though it is not something I know enough about to really comment.

[@TheNashBurger]

Claiming garlic can't adapt to it's environment because it's the same genetic material is like saying you can't get stronger through exercise because you're the same genetic material. All organisms have the ability to change and adapt to their environments through many different pathways. They can up or down regulate certain genes in response to stimuli. E.g., temperature, moisture, particular nutrients. Also, you might be interested in looking into epigenetics.

[@REDGardens]

Interesting comparison. I was thinking about that for a bit, and I think the 'stronger through exercise' comparison would be better relating to a clove doing better in one context or soil than another. Having all of the plants in one set respond in different way seems to be an environmental adaptation in some way, as you suggest.

[@carly09et]

Demi-clone production. Plants have multiple genetic sets - eight to a hundred. The weighted activation of parallel genes is controled by the methal/demethal emzines.

[@REDGardens]

Not sure I understand what you are talking about, and seems I need to do more research and learning!

[@carly09et]

@@REDGardens plants can't move so they have multiple gene variants. Plant DNA is ten to a hundred times as dense (with genes) as animals... The environment then selects the gene variant that works best. Selective triggers a strange ...

[@newfieingenuity]

A trick I use to determine if my garlic is ready for harvest is wait until the bottom 2 leaves die to harvest . My father in law leaves a scape on one plant and when the scape stands straight up it's ready, also with his method you get bulbils. I grow Music Garlic and last year I let one scape go, it produced over 400 bulbils. If you really like garlic it's a great way to expand your stock quickly, but it's still asexual reproduction. The 2 methods lined up. The scape method is a bit bolder of a indicator, standing about 5 feet tall and screaming "I'M DONE!"

[@REDGardens]

That is interesting! I have never grown hard neck garlic, it is not very common over here for some reason. so have never seen that happen.

[@newfieingenuity]

@@REDGardens Your missing out, the scapes make hard neck worth growing alone. Might be that your winters are too mild, I'm not sure if hard neck will do it without its dormancy period. Something to look into maybe?

[@tjeanvlogs9894]

It's not genetic adaption but epigenetics. The genes are the same but when and how they are being expressed in response to conditions.

[@thomaschoat9632]

Epigenetics?

[@REDGardens]

Probably something like that.

[@Theorimlig]

Don't you wait for the garlic leaves to start going yellow and wilting before you harvest? I'm sure that would have happened later with the polytunnel clove grown plants. Also, even though there is no sexual reproduction there is genetic selection. By selecting the best plant and replanting cloves from them you are of course multiplying the best individual plants and cloning them. Doing this year after year could lead to you ending up with all your planting bulbs being the same individual or handful of individuals. They were always the best specimens, you just gradually weeded out the rest and multiplied the best ones which makes the average bulb bigger.

[@niklasholmstrom5358]

Came here to ask the same thing :D Am not going to say what is right or wrong since I've only been gardening for 10 years or so, but everywhere I read that "when 30-50% of the bottom leaves turn yellow, you harvest the garlic".

[@REDGardens]

I haven't figured when to harvest the garlic yet. This season I did it earlier than in the past, to prevent a lot of the skins from splitting, and to get them out of the ground before the rain caused too much damage. The thing about the selection is that I started the whole crop from 3 or 4 bulbs all those years ago, so there was already a bottle neck of selection, and before that the people who grew the cloves also probably had similar selection. So I am not sure if the 'weeding out' side explains what I have observed, but it could be part of the process.

[@REDGardens]

@@niklasholmstrom5358 30-50% sounds like a good ballpark, though with some of my garlic crops the rust and other issues makes it hard to determine this point.

[@Theorimlig]

@@REDGardens Interesting! I didn't know you started from such a small gene pool. But even so, maybe one of those bulbs was just genetically superior for your conditions.

[@ThisIsATireFire]

And every time I've waited for about 30% of the leaves to turn I've gotten completely split apart bulbs. I pull them as soon as 10% have a yellow leaf. That's gotten me much better results.

[@dcxh69]

bro, I would kill to find garlic that thiccc locally

[@REDGardens]

:)

[@AAjax]

Epigentics. Methylation on genes control gene expression, and this can introduce persisting phenotypic changes within a single generation. Studies have shown that children born during extended periods of famine have epigentic changes that lead to obesity, among other things.

[@garlicandchilipreppers8533]

The phenomenon your trying to explain is "Plant plasticity" Google the term.

[@alisonburgess345]

Oh yeah, they've adapted to their immediate growing conditions alright. Not in the same way sexual reproduction leads to adaptation I suppose, but what an interesting trial! Those garlic cloves at the start are absolute whoppers - I hope you put them into your local agricultural show - they'd win a blue ribbon! You'd only need about a quarter of a clove for any given recipe... fantastic. You're really hitting your straps as a market gardener now.

[@REDGardens]

There is some kind of adaptation going on! Thanks, I am really pleased with the results I am getting, in the polytunnel at least.

[@AndrewHelgeCox]

Somatic mutation. Not as fast as sex, but random mutation drove evolution before sex was invented and still gets the job done for many sexless organisms.

[@REDGardens]

Would that have any influence in just one season?

[@earlshine453]

Or, maybe you are growing more of the growth enhancing bacteria and fungi in your high tunnel, and their spores dominate when you plant the cloves outside ...

[@REDGardens]

Hadn't thought of that possibility.

[@eugh9939]

If garlic didn’t adapt as what I am hearing people say, it would’ve gone extinct years ago So yes, they are most definitely adapting

[@angietofu]

Garlic can reproduce through seed or clove. A clove of garlic is essentially a clone of the parent plant and likely has very little adaptions, while garlic seed or 'bulbils' can cross polinate and adapt easily.

[@alexstinson2811]

Sounds like epigenetics en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics?wprov=sfla1

[@REDGardens]

Sounds like it.