Gaza: Why do Liberals Support Genocide? With Hasan Spiker

The events of the past 6 weeks have exposed the sheer double standards that apply to the implementation of international law. The so-called liberal international order has been found to be nothing short of hypocritical. Gaza has exposed not only this duplicity but also the very ideas that undergird such a system. Today, we explore these ideas. Many surmise that the West has taken a wrong turn, and if only they return back to their original noble enlightenment values. Yet Gaza unveils a more unsettling truth. That the values of secular liberalism have always remained connected to European chauvinism. Their unbridled support for a settler colonial project and the ease with which they absorb genocide reveals the unsettling nature of liberalism. This is the argument of my guest today, Hasan Spiker.
Hasan Spiker is a philosopher and comparative scholar of Islamic, Greek, and modern thought he studied at the University of Cambridge, where he received his MPhil in philosophy and where is carrying out his doctoral research. He also studied the Islamic sciences. His new book, Hierarchy and Freedom: An Examination of Some Classical Metaphysical and Post-Enlightenment Accounts of Human Autonomy, was released this year.
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The Thinking Muslim Podcast Episode 124
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
02:21 Gaza a Turning Point?
07:30 Liberal justification for genocide?
10:49 Mill and Colonialism
12:55 John Rawls
17:32 Liberal interventions
22:10 Immanuel Kant’s Moral Philosophy
24:05 Western superiority
31:20 Islam and rights
35:20 Origin of Maqasids
37:36 Islamic diversity and government
43:52 Liberalism’s crusading spirit
45:12 Good liberals?
50:36 What do liberals want of Islam?
53:40 Muslims in the West
56:20 Islam and diversity
1:02:08 Gaza and Opportunity?

[@BloggingTheology]

Fantastic video!

[@PeecfulP]

I’m a Jewish person who really appreciates this podcast. Thank you for an important perspective I wouldn’t get to learn from otherwise.

[@TheThinkingMuslim]

You are most welcome here and hope you come back again. Thank you for leaving a comment.

[@mas-udal-hassan9277]

This guest's Aqidah is very bad (Wahdatil Wujood)

[@mahirabdulahi4131]

It's not wahdaatal wujud, it's wahdaatal shuhud. It's not bad, it's actually Tawhid.

[@mas-udal-hassan9277]

@@mahirabdulahi4131 He's a sufi who follows Ibn Arabi's kufr ideologies. Many classical scholars declared Ibn Arabi a Kafir.

[@Foster-rv6ty]

Jewish people have to be the most integrated, peaceable, and productive group of any in our societies. They always feature high in the arts and sciences and belong in our culture. They do not impose their religion upon us. In fact, many are not religious at all. So, when another large group of people, uninvited and unwanted by the majority of the people here, and that are often antagonistic to our culture and way of life start intimidating them, and us, with real violence, then who do you expect that we're going to stand by? Hopefully, after Hamas' demise, Palestinians will see this as the defeat that it is and realize that their only option is to accept Israel as a Jewish State , and to work on de-Nazifying their own culture.

[@PeterBLaurence]

Not everyone can break down philosophical points and make them accessible to the lay person. Shaykh Spiker does so with ease. He is fast becoming one of the UK’s leading intellectuals. Hats off to the presenter as well!

[@nanashi7779]

Hasan Spiker is a fantastic scholar, great to see him on the channel.

[@abrooks]

You do realise the true genocide and ethic cleansing was the removal of all Jews from every Arab nations. You are they hight of true hypocrisy

[@nazeerahmedsonday5071]

What an enlightened lecture and discussion on western liberalism and its intrinsic contradictions. Shukran for this program. I would like the thinking Muslim to have a program on interest: the adoption of interest in the western political economy, its impact on society, on the environment and on Muslims.

[@TheThinkingMuslim]

Wonderful idea - will action this.

[@mahirabdulahi4131]

Please bring in Sheik Umar Vadillo for this discussion. He has many lectures on it.

[@Zion_simmons]

The key word “not to be amenable to western prejudices”. Fantastic analysis!

[@Zeee530]

I recently started reading Hierarchy and Freedom and Hasan Spiker is up there with one of the best islamic intellectuals of modern times, thanks for bringing him on

[@mas-udal-hassan9277]

This guest's Aqidah is very bad (Wahdatil Wujood) He's a sufi who follows Ibn Arabi's kufr ideologies. Many classical scholars declared Ibn Arabi a Kafir.

[@adam.bashir]

@@mas-udal-hassan9277Many classical scholars praised him too.

[@MuhammadMuhyideen]

​@@mas-udal-hassan9277is this point you're trying to make so important for you that you are going to be going comment to comment copy and pasting the same point, is your life so flawless that you have been granted this role as the judge of others? Subhanalla you made your point , move on.

[@MohammadMohammad11111]

MashaAllah i am happy to see Shaykh Hassan on this podcast. JazakaAllah khairan both of you.

[@dinarkania7274]

Masha Allah...thank you Brother Jalal for interviewing Syaikh Hasan Spiker ...this is an important topic

[@ruqayyah43]

A wonderful conversation between the two of you. Please bring him again. Thank you.

[@107182253]

An excellent and highly informative analysis. It provides historical and philosophical framework for understanding the criminal genocide we are witnessing. Thank you Dr Hassan Spiker.This is one of my most favourite channels. Palestine will overcome.

[@ummshams8954]

They can’t hide anymore. The masks are ripped. AlhamduliLlāh. Thank you gentlemen for the in-depth discussion. May Allāh bless & protect you both.

[@abdultuaheb123]

The least we can do is like this video so the algorithm helps spread the video inshaallah. keep up for good works, mashallah ❤

[@commontouch1787]

Hasan Spiker is an incredible, very wise guest who tells things as they are, and adresses the challenges we’re all facing very realistically

[@DM-wk7yr]

The very question “why do liberals…” makes it seem like we expect something from them. We don’t owe them anything nor should we need anything from them. They’re hypocrites and we know it.

[@samsuuddin9731]

Brilliantly said sir.

[@sikeajax]

Yes I don’t like liberalism either but it’s hypocritical for a devoted Muslim to move to liberal countries for its freedoms , support their agenda with taxes, and then decry it. moving back to the autocratic countries where sharia law maintains family and society order would be a true practice consistent with its belief for the life of an average devotee.

[@commontouch1787]

@@sikeajaxyou seem ignorant of the fact that the new generation of western Muslims are born in the west so they didn’t choose, and even more ignorant of the fact that every attempt by Muslims to have a religious society has been sabotaged by western states. The fault is 80% yours, and 20% ours for even taking your views into account.

[@DM-wk7yr]

@@sikeajax I was actually born in the US, so it’s not like I would be “going back” anywhere. Although, I do like the GCC countries.

[@sikeajax]

@@DM-wk7yr well yes just as it would make sense for refugees to flee persecution/ famine .. it would make sense to flee liberal corruption …for a nation that has family centered values that does not support lgbt education and promiscuity of children. I do think Saudi Arabia, Turkey, UAE would be better for Muslim children and marriages.

[@msarsaad123]

Wow MashAllah dopamine rush from all the intellectual points. Couldn’t pause for one second. One to watch and rewatch again and again.

[@MrNed78]

MashaAllah, this channel has been knocking it out of the park recently with the right often uncomfortable conversations Muslims should be having

[@averroesa895]

Great video. Even though I have some disagreements with Sheikh Hasan wrt to Metaphysics, he is by far one of the most important and brilliant critics of Western Liberalism and all its intellectual and philosophical baggage.

[@sarajabeen1965]

One of the greatest minds of Muslim world. May Allah protect him

[@s3youtubevids156]

One of the best podcasts for some time. Brilliant assessment of the the philiosphy at show in recent times

[@earlgrey3660]

Thank you so much for this very important and timely discussion.

[@MRshraaf]

Thank you for the excellent discussion, brothers!

[@shaimaa5508]

Thank you. Great episode

[@bez1196]

Hasan Spiker is one of my favorite people to listen to. Amazing podcast.

[@Mr_Main-event_Muhammad024]

Ustadh Dr. Hasan Spiker nails it each time. Masha'Allah!

[@kimobrien.]

An appolgist for the NEO NAZI Hamas!!

[@mrmozai]

May Allah bless you and all those who make such wonderful discussions possible! I am incredibly grateful.❤

[@faisalniazi1899]

One of the best episodes ☺️thank you so much

[@ayeshawaheed9002]

Waited for the whole week for the new podcast. You guys are doing great work. And awaking the Muslim thinking. I hope you get loads of success. AMEEN. And please invite Sami Hamdi again.

[@user-on8jx3qr8w]

what do you think of the ottoman occupation of greece?

[@angelarmstrong3613]

@@user-on8jx3qr8wthe ottomans ruled over greece, they didn’t go around indiscriminately killing women, children, elderly, disabled, and innocent men. They didn’t kick the Greeks out of their homes. They didn’t force settlement expansions and put foreigners in the Greeks homes. Before boarders were set by the west, people moved fairly freely across the lands if necessary. I think the ottomans did a great job up until the last few Sultans and due to the way they ruled, I can understand and accept the downfall of the Ottomans. The 7 generations from Osman and Orhan were the best of them.

[@user-on8jx3qr8w]

@@angelarmstrong3613 "the ottomans ruled over greece, they didn’t go around indiscriminately killing women, children, elderly, disabled, and innocent men. " lol. you might want to read up. Aegean Islands Main articles: Chios Massacre, Destruction of Psara, and Kasos massacre "Holocaust of Samothraki" (1821) by François-Auguste Vinson The Turks and Egyptians ravaged several Greek islands during the Greek Revolution, including those of Samothrace (1821), Chios (1822), Kos,[9] Rhodes,[9] Kasos and Psara (1824). The massacre of Samothrace occurred on September 1, 1821, where a Turkish fleet under the Kapudan Pasha Nasuhzade Ali Pasha killed most of the male population, took the women and children to slavery and burned down their homes.[10] The Chios Massacre of 1822 became one of the most notorious occurrences of the war.[11][12] It is estimated that up to 100,000 Chiots were killed or enslaved during the massacre, while 20,000 escaped as refugees.[13] Mehmet Ali, the Pasha of Egypt, dispatched his fleet to Kasos and on May 27, 1824 killed the population.[14] A few weeks later, the fleet under Koca Hüsrev Mehmed Pasha destroyed the population of Psara.[15]

[@user-on8jx3qr8w]

@@angelarmstrong3613 great job with the armenian holocaust too? you do know greeks were forced out of their homes in turkey in the greco-turkish war : "I ventured inside the abandoned village of Kayaköy and found a haunting remnant of Turkey's bloody past. Kayaköy was once a Greek village. It was bustling and busy, known to its inhabitants in the Greek tongue as Livissi. The village was lived in by Anatolian Greeks, until the Greek-Turkish War of 1919-1922 swept through the region and caused destruction and havoc."

[@user-on8jx3qr8w]

@@angelarmstrong3613 how about the poor yazidi. we saw what islam does to them with our own eyes. Ottoman era In 1640, 40,000 Ottoman soldiers attacked Yazidi communities around Mount Sinjar, killing 3,060 Yazidis during battle, then raiding and setting fire to 300 Yazidi villages and murdering 1,000-2,000 Yazidis who had taken refuge in caves around the town of Sinjar;[25][non-primary source needed] in 1892, Sultan Abdulhamid II ordered a campaign of mass conscription or murder of Yazidis as part of his campaign to Islamize the Ottoman Empire, which also targeted Armenians and other Christians.[26] oh yeah, you do know the ottomans 'taxed' the greeks one out of every 5 boys to be turned over to be trained as janissaries? how kind of them.

[@angelarmstrong3613]

My brain can’t keep up with his intelligence

[@TheThinkingMuslim]

You and me both! MJ

[@snakejuce]

Upgrade your firmware, sis.

[@DITBC]

You’d be amazed at the atrocities you would tolerate if losing your paycheck or positions of power were at stake.

[@snakejuce]

Lovely session brother Muhammad. Jzk. "When they are told, 'Do not spread corruption in the land,' they reply, 'We are only peace-makers!' (Quran 2:11) "Indeed, it is they who are the corruptors, but they fail to perceive it." (Quran 2:12)

[@commontouch1787]

Excellent !

[@andrewronald1547]

This guy is saying something that should have been said loud and clear quite some time ago . There might be a lot more live Iraqi people had this point had seen the light of day a while ago. Thank you sir

[@kimobrien.]

Thanks to the British and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem a jew hater from a big landlords family the Baghdad Jews who had lived there for centuries were driven out in a pogrom in 1941 while 8 miles away British troops stood by doing nothing.

[@azadbux4653]

That was a enjoyable vid. Glad I watched it all. I’m impressed and thankful for the points and education. Alhumdulilla

[@fatimah9202]

Excellent. Jazaa kAllahu khairah fid daarain

[@sarrrfarrr]

This was amazing.

[@adnanlimited]

Enjoyed every single word this Gentlemen uttered then listened to it again to take it all in. Please bring him back on again.

[@Holly_2011]

Thank you for this.

[@Is_haqq]

Masha Allah. May Allah continue to grow the host and his panelists in grace and knowledge. Absolutely love this channel.

[@fafanua]

What a treat in knowldge expandtion . Thank you.

[@candicechieffo884]

Absolutely amazing lecture. Very educational and very inspiring. Help gives an understanding of the western and Muslim controversy too

[@hz9537]

@38:30 the best argument against that is that liberalism itself is a dogmatic ideology & therefore it is NOT neutral but itself seeks to dominate others. Therefore, for a liberal society to thrive, religions must be liberalized. Only those arbitrary values that liberals of the day approve of must be adhered to by followers of a religion. However, in order to ensure liberalism's dominance the end result is inevitably an atheist society since according to liberalism a religious follower cannot possibly fairly arbitrate between religions. Essentially, liberalism is NOT a fair arbiter between religions but on the contrary it's the means to their destruction.

[@riazsyed5457]

Thank you for educating us, need many lectures in this subject for muslims to unlearn all the wrong concepts and learn correct concepts. So that we know how we relate with the other

[@charliedw100]

So interesting, especially the contradictions within Mill.

[@ansaif1976]

An amazing conversation

[@ly1x]

Banging podcast!

[@Generation21.]

اللهم انصر اخواننا في فلسطين 🇵🇸 آمين يارب العالمين 🤲❣️🇪🇹

[@babayoadam]

امين يارب العالمين

[@ahmedismailabdullahi3821]

What is to be considered here is that Judaism didn't recognize Christianity as Ibrahimic religion for about seven or eight centuries until Islam came and declared that both Judaism and cheristianity are ""ahlukitaab" the people of the book. Islam was the main reason to stop the animosity between the two religions but the Muslims become the victim of both.Some Muslims say that traditional Christians reconcile with Islam but liberalism is the unorthodox new religion with materialistic way of thinking against all the religions and for the hegemony of the world.

[@Fisherman447]

Assalam aleikum, may Allah bless both of you. Truly this is the best discussion of islam/muslims and western liberalism.

[@farhatamin]

Excellent episode

[@babayoadam]

Masha Allah Wonderful and timely discussion

[@JamesWhite-cr5ys]

Well done! Thank you.

[@hassansuleiman9663]

nice podcast

[@sarajabeen1965]

In shaa Allah. It was very nice hearing Hasan Spiker ma shaa Allah, so proud of him.

[@redihaderi8188]

Brother, I suggested bringing shelkh Hasan on in the comment section. Did I prompt this beauty of an interview or you had it planned? My ego is desperate to know 😂

[@TheThinkingMuslim]

I am sure your comment contributed.. may Allah accept

[@redihaderi8188]

@@TheThinkingMuslim amin insha'Allah. I enjoy your interviews a lot. May Allah guide all of us!

[@omara3938]

Great program....jzk

[@khaderlander2429]

Secularism, Democracy, and Geopolitics in Israel: 1. **Ethnocentrism:** - **Observation:** Ethnocentrism, or the favoring of one's own ethnic group over others, is noted as a factor in the geopolitical dynamics, potentially influencing policies in Israel. - **Example:** Policies that prioritize the interests of a specific ethnic or religious group over others. 2. **Anthropocentric Worldview:** - **Observation:** Anthropocentrism, focusing on human interests, is highlighted as a factor in decision-making. - **Example:** Policies that prioritize human interests over environmental or broader global considerations. 3. **Dehumanization of Palestinian Civilians:** - **Observation:** Some human beings, particularly Palestinian civilians, are not considered fully human. - **Example:** Alleged discriminatory policies or actions that treat certain groups as lesser beings. ### Plato's Critique of Democracy: 1. **Triumph of Image Over Substance:** - **Observation:** Critique that politicians in democracies are chosen based on popularity rather than competence. - **Example:** Candidates relying heavily on charisma and public image rather than detailed policy proposals. 2. **Politicians Pandering to Public Wishes:** - **Observation:** Democratically elected leaders may prioritize popular opinion over their own convictions. - **Example:** Leaders adopting positions based on polls rather than personal principles. 3. **Focus on Short-Term Goals:** - **Observation:** Democratic leaders might prioritize short-term gains at the expense of long-term societal needs. - **Example:** Policies that address immediate concerns but neglect long-term sustainability. 4. **Populism and Avoidance of Sacrifices:** - **Observation:** Democratically elected politicians may prefer offering benefits to the public rather than asking for sacrifices. - **Example:** Policies that prioritize short-term gains or benefits without considering long-term consequences. 5. **Limited Vision Linked to Election Terms:** - **Observation:** The claim is made that the vision of politicians is constrained by the length of their term. - **Example:** Leaders focusing on policies that yield quick results to secure reelection rather than pursuing visionary, long-term strategies. ### Overall Perspective: A critical view of the interplay between secularism, democracy, and geopolitical dynamics, using Plato's critiques of democracy as a lens.

[@han9621]

Kinging, thanks!

[@a4482921]

MashaAllah, great insights from a great intellect

[@biologyonline99]

Great.. Spiker bro

[@hanaaelouajibi5966]

I’m surprised this Chanel doesn’t have a million subscribers at least

[@TheThinkingMuslim]

We are, alhamdulillah, aiming to develop a quality base of subscribers. Jzk for your support.

[@MendeMaria-ej8bf]

Kant's categorical imperative is perfect. Unfortunately, mankind often disrespects it.

[@susanarupolo2212]

Thank you , I am a regular person no really young ,and it is a little hard to understand.

[@Gee-xb7rt]

There are some things that I think need more context here, neoliberalism is really just the flipside of the coin of neoconservatism, a two headed beast. With Foucault there is more emphasis on power disparity, so "the left" has become more "progressive" not so much "liberal", and you see this a lot with the overwhelming support for Palestine among younger generations. The civil rights movements, including lgbt, have a big role here as well, even though they could do a lot better job meeting their Muslim neighbors, and of course vise versa. Keep the message about Palestine, not rainbows I think there is a kind of "refugee Islam" in the West that is very resistant to interpretation, to quote Lin Manuel Miranda you can't separate the way we are living from the times we are living in. The children in Palestine have nothing but trust in Allah delivering them to Ibrahim's garden. Meanwhile Bahrain has gay bars, just don't be waving flags, engaging in pda in public, displaying public drunkenness, but whatever you are doing in clubs or your home is your business. Of course these aren't specific rules for lgbt people, they are applied to everyone. The SE Asia Islands have "3rd gender" constructs that predate the arrival of Abrahamic religions, they aren't about to give them up, and that is probably shocking to a lot of Arabic Muslims that don't see law as something that can be open to interpretation, which is of course why people get advanced degrees in law to better understand interpretation. With education comes understanding, but how do you translate that to people who's schools have been destroyed thanks to Western occupations.

[@mohamedyusuf5569]

Ethics and intellectual prosperity go hand in hand. This is what we lack in the Ummah

[@hardworkingwoman3780]

Why can you not be yourselves as Muslims here in the west? I may have misunderstood when the guest replied 'we'll continue to pretend' but surely pretending, if that is indeed a thing, is pretending not a creator of mistrust? If a muslim cannot be openly muslim how can we ever learn to understand and therefore learn to tolerate? Is the concept of mutual tolerance really so unachievable? If never tried how can we ever really achieve mutual respect and peaceful co existence? With regards the guests closing thought re Israel being seen globally as the worst of evil, and by association the nations complicit in their evil acts, on this i wholeheartedly agree - you spoke my minds very own thoughts with absolute truth and clarity. Thank you again for your work here; i find your conversations most thought provoking and honest; there is much to appreciate and learn.

[@kingkandaules9614]

Actions are stronger than words. Choosing a comfortable life in the West and contributing to its wealth by your workforce instead of migrating to an Islamic country is the most convincing statement, what is the better society.

[@syed2194]

Not necessarily. All it shows is that the West is economically more successful, which it is. It proves nothing relating to morality, of which the Western world is bankrupt of.

[@commontouch1787]

One thing we’re all sure about is that it’s definitely not the west. Actual western society is probably the worst civilization history has ever known

[@zeinabkhalil3591]

Really dumb argument. Being wealthy doesn't in itself make you decent and moral.

[@kingkandaules9614]

@@zeinabkhalil3591 Sorry, but you may not have understood my argument. The decision of so many Muslims, to have a better life in the West is contradictory to the laments. It is exemplary hypocrisy. This decision weakens the Muslim position in the world. It means a brain drain in Islamic societies. It strengthens the West by increasing its workforce and wealth by paying taxes. Btw. these are even used to support Israel’s army. That is the consequence of the preference to have the better life in the West.

[@sarajabeen1965]

I keep listening to the last sentences which has hope and it's of course a basic part of our islamic beliefs but in these days when my heart feels like imprisoned in a fist, it gave me hope. 😢

[@ebm9231]

When you read the quran you understand.

[@jj-yi1ne]

you are christian

[@alib7489]

I hope The Thinking Muslim which in my mind is already the biggest Muslim Podcast, becomes the biggest podcast in the world Insha'Allah

[@roxiefrance-nuriddin7658]

John Locke was secretary to the Council of Trade and Plantations (1673-74) and a member of the Board of Trade (1696-1700), with responsibility for the American colonies. He was a major investor in the English slave trade through the Royal African Company and the Bahama Adventurers company

[@omarfaruk-wv8xv]

❤❤

[@muhammedtalha7047]

❤

[@Lovelifetillyoudie]

It is high time for the United States to cease repeating empty words about a two-state solution while providing money, weapons and diplomatic support for a systematic and calculated Israeli action that has made that solution inconceivable - as it has for roughly half a century.

[@MendeMaria-ej8bf]

Individual freedom ends where someone else's freedom begins.

[@aalbaglii]

How does the views of Islam on harm reconcile w the upholding of the five necessities? If these are at risk of being transgressed by others, what is prioritized, non-harm or the five necessities?

[@rosimasis3942]

Because there are not their people who are been massacred.

[@MendeMaria-ej8bf]

Extremism and fanatic views are the problem. We need tolerance, fairness and respect.

[@ChucksExotics]

I hope in the future people use the term liberal like they do 'nazi' today.

[@taliasya2273]

I am a US citizen living in Florida- a very right wing state. As a whole in the US, it is the ‘right’ that is ‘tied to Israel’ and the politicians are most likely to take money from Israeli/Zionist lobbies. I have been looking at this, checking politician’s donors, company backings, etc. as I want nothing to do with Zionism or backing of Israeli interests. Had I known at the time of Biden’s tie to Zionism, I would never have voted for him! I am a liberal voter, mostly. My friends are liberal and we are all sick about this Gaza situation. We are totally for a true democracy (my eyes have been opened during this catastrophe), and anti-Zionist. I had no idea before this what Zionism was, how it started and who its proponents were. I have learned and shared. I understand your reasoning, I believe, but I disagree, as that is not my reality. Perhaps I am not liberal enough (my husband would disagree with me; he is a strict Republican). He is in the Israeli/Zionist camp and not care about the Palestinian people, or immigrants, or right to self determination, in an unhealthy, non-compassionate way. To me, he is a full-on Republican right wing, conservative, self-entitled, white male. That mindset here in the states is not the mindset I want to have. I don’t think Allah, May Peace Be Upon Him, would want that, either.

[@alsanabani]

Allah isn't a man 😅. In Islam Allah is the God of Adam, Noah , Abraham and all the prophets including Jesus.

[@franklittle8124]

The sourse of your confusion lies in the way, in the USA, liberalism is conflated with leftism From what you wrote, you and your friend opposing the horrors inflicted on Gaza are leftists, not liberals.

[@Abdullah-of2oh]

Look at the beauty of Islam. Sheikh is such a good believer, though from a European race, that we value him more than our own relatives who lack in Thaqwa than him.

[@pattyandbustershow1031]

Hey, I'm a liberal and I don't think the Israelites should be there

[@khaderlander2429]

Let's explore potential unintended consequences: ### Unintended Consequences in the Context Provided: 1. **Ethnocentrism and Discrimination:** - **Step:** Emphasizing ethnocentrism may inadvertently lead to discrimination against certain ethnic or religious groups. - **Example:** Policies favoring one group may marginalize others, contributing to social unrest or tensions. 2. **Anthropocentrism and Environmental Impact:** - **Step:** An anthropocentric worldview might result in unintended environmental consequences as human interests take precedence. - **Example:** Policies that prioritize industrial development without sufficient environmental safeguards, leading to ecological degradation. 3. **Dehumanization and Human Rights Abuses:** - **Step:** Considering certain groups as not fully human may inadvertently contribute to human rights abuses. - **Example:** Discriminatory practices or policies that disregard the rights and dignity of marginalized populations. 4. **Triumph of Image Over Substance in Leadership:** - **Step:** Prioritizing popularity over competence may lead to leaders lacking the necessary skills for effective governance. - **Example:** A charismatic leader with limited policy expertise might struggle to address complex issues facing the nation. 5. **Politicians Pandering to Public Wishes:** - **Step:** Overly catering to public opinion without a principled stand may result in inconsistent policies. - **Example:** Frequent policy shifts based on short-term public sentiment, causing uncertainty and instability. 6. **Short-Term Focus and Long-Term Neglect:** - **Step:** Focusing on short-term gains may lead to neglect of crucial long-term societal needs. - **Example:** Prioritizing immediate economic stimulus over investing in education or infrastructure for sustained growth. 7. **Populism and Lack of Sacrifices:** - **Step:** Succumbing to populism may result in policies that prioritize immediate benefits without considering long-term consequences. - **Example:** Governments providing extensive welfare benefits without a sustainable funding plan, leading to economic challenges. 8. **Limited Vision Linked to Election Terms:** - **Step:** Politicians with short-term visions may neglect critical issues that require long-term planning. - **Example:** Infrastructure projects postponed or neglected due to their benefits being realized beyond the current electoral cycle. ### Overall Impact: The unintended consequences highlighted above demonstrate the potential pitfalls of ethnocentrism, anthropocentrism, dehumanization, and certain aspects of democratic governance. Striking a balance between immediate concerns and long-term sustainability, considering diverse perspectives, and upholding ethical principles can help mitigate these unintended consequences in complex geopolitical scenarios.

[@shaw8623]

Great insightful. Subject observation: I noticed younger Muslims in the west are more assertive than their parents were. It could be the colonized mindset has wore off that our parents had to deal with

[@genuinearticle33]

'Sum in Mondo, Non in Mondo' ..In the world not of the world, The world being a Public realm, i am in the Public does not equate to being of the Public, this is the best bulwark against totalitarian collectivism.

[@ribeirojorge5064]

Viva a Verdade Ilumina a Mentira Viva a Verdade que Vem Fazer Justiça ❤️💚💜

[@MrJohnaiton]

Hasan was doing such a great job of not raising bad blood until the last minute. No raising of negativity towards liberals, no raising of negativity towards this or that Moslem government, no raising of negativity towards gay pride, then whooshka....

[@RayOfHope8]

🌹🌹🌹❤️❤️❤️

[@lk9875]

At least this brother walked the walk and left the land of the kafirs. Now, if others followed him for the benefit of the ummah

[@malif1279]

24:46

[@theexplorers4182]

MashaAllah

[@come_to.piece-]

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[@c.kainoabugado7935]

Alarming & triggering stuff. Took a break.

[@senan13]

Please interview khaled Abou El Fadl!

[@hardworkingwoman3780]

The religion of 'the material' or 'money', both essentially egoic and greed fuelled, is the problem here in the UK, Europe, the US. Religion or faith is severely lacking here in the uk, which i feel fully qualified to say as a white woman of catholic upbringing who aged 11 found gross hypocrisy in my religion and the laughable CofE (bastardised catholicism - already an entrenched in violence and greed religion - by a king who wished to divorce!), and agree wholeheartedly with this guests opening first comments.

[@vivekachudamani1]

I can’t agree with a critique of liberalism as wholesale as this. Viewed as a whole, I would conclude very differently than these guys. There has been no better foundation for any society than liberalism. At least, no society in history in which I would rather live than a liberal democracy. Nothing lasts forever, and everything corrupts and fails. Sadly, this is what’s happened, what has always happened to every civilisation everywhere. There are no exceptions!

[@Mohammed-bz8lt]

Fair enough, but i agree with the speaker, and i don't see where the issue is with what he's saying even if you disagree . You can only say what you say and believe liberal society is the best possible society for you, and the only one you'd live in, because you accept the foundational beliefs and values on which liberalism is built. That's his point, liberal tolerance is superficial and tolerates only those who in a sense abandon foundational differences and accept philosphical liberalism at the root level. It's therefore understandable why a facist, or a marxist, or a proper muslim , christian, hindu, or native americans (back when they had a civilization) etc etc would not consider liberalism as the ideal. They may reject the arbitrary aspect on which it is justified, as they may have a specific idea of what moral good is.

[@vivekachudamani1]

@@Mohammed-bz8lt the issue is that I disagree! I’m a liberal lefty to the core, so there’s my bias if you like. But am genuinely shocked by this talk, because as an apologist for islam for many years, it’s the first time I see for sure, that western values and Islam are really not compatible. The two even joke about it. We can ‘keep on pretending’ he said to a chuckle. To me it’s a sign of how far we’ve fallen that this kind of discussion even has any traction. I don’t disagree with everything said, but without writing a whole essay here, I can say the essential point without nuance or much detail. That at the base of it all: for me it’s regression to be wanting to go back to religion as the base of society. Then, and shockingly from my perspective, they have the gall, as two successful people grown in a western country, why western society has a difficult relationship with islam! In order to undermine liberal values, they also used some very spurious arguments: árbitrism, for example. There’s nothing arbitrary about allowing someone the freedom to choose. If you don’t like that freedom, and would rather something else, then why live in the west? Both of those men have the choice. I’m pretty sure it’s because the conditions for living are more agreeable. This response makes me feel like Douglas Murray! 😂 Now that’s shocking enough. Anyway, I found this talk very depressing. Good day to you sir.

[@commontouch1787]

Western ethnocentrist narrative, I’ve lived all my life with people sharing your view and I can just tell you that the intellectual logic behind those claims are just not valid, or strong enough arguments. The Islamic Caliphate system has been better than any liberal society in history.

[@commontouch1787]

@@vivekachudamani1 Very bold of you to talk about individuals « trying to undermine liberal values and society » when these liberal imperialist powers literally undermined everything good about the Islamic world, imposed its liberal value system by force, and created unresolving instability in their regions. If that claim isn’t based on ignorance of these facts, you should be ashamed

[@Mohammed-bz8lt]

@@vivekachudamani1 you seemed to have missed the point though. European liberals have essentially devised a notion of tolerance which relies on essentially changing people's worldviews/beliefs and ultimately adopting philosphical liberalism before they and their way of life is "compatible" with the freedom on offer, in it is a implicit recognition that liberalism isn't for freedom but a type of freedom afforded to those who willingly or unwillingly accept its premises by abandoning any meaningful differences they have in their way of life, beliefs and worldview. So its answer to diversity actually comprimises any true idea of tolerance. Thats at a fundamental level, but talking more loosely as a example of this attitude look at how "universal" rights asserted regarding things like right to property which were used and formed a convenient basis to subjugate and steal the lands of communities and civilizations that didn't share the Liberal world view with regards to property rights (native americans, aboriginals etc). The thing I don't get about you, is this is not just the case for Islam, but its the case for every world view, belief etc. Its not about undermining society, because Islam in particular instructs Muslims to respect the laws and ways of the land they live in as long as they are not forced to comprise their beliefs ( something which happens when the liberal state , which you seem to think is neutral, intervenes and promotes its ethics as the only acceptable ones). But holding views or beliefs that undermine liberalism don't make them unacceptable and are not exclusive to islam or Muslims, that's why I'm surprised about your shock here. You could say anyone who disagrees with how things are is undermining liberalism, yeah of course. I think you misunderstood the about arbritism or maybe you just disagree which is fair enough then I guess. But the point about it was that arbritism is the basis of allowing freedoms in liberalism because it asserts that no one knows anything more than anyone else, so essentially each community/individual is equally upon something most likely untrue, therefore they should come together to define freedom in the way that liberalism then did. This position is always going to be in conflict with the idea of people being diverse in beliefs, values, way of life. The answer liberalism provides to dealing with diversity in people's is by telling them all that you must accept non of your ways of life are acceptable and therefore you must agree to the liberal position as the basis. In order for diverse people's to accept this thay must compromise necessarily on their own worldviews, beliefs, except in the most superficial manner; ie liberalism's way of tolerating diversity in humanity is by removing true diversity and leaving it in the most superficial manner. Its a superficial tolerance once communities essentially believe the liberal states basic premisis which will almost always be contradictory and Co.primising of their own beliefs. This is not just abstract but colonial and post colonial times, millions have died, voilent force exerted, and many lands have been subjugatemd in justification of this ideal.

[@chekov885]

Russia and China are the great hope for the world. I wouldn't be at all surprised if 1 or both stepped in and sorted this mess out. There may be a few EU countries that risk Americas wrath and stand up for humanity. Spain, Australia and Turkey have spoken up. Hopefully the Bricks will take a stand. Words alone without concerted action will be insignificant.

[@Akpalonhebe07.]

Lol!Russia and China are wishful hope for short sighted Muslims 😊. Will you enroll your kids to learn Russian or Chinese language so as spend their lives in those "hopeful" countries?

[@jj-yi1ne]

russia and china are worse

[@khaderlander2429]

Secularism and democracy in Israel is to blame and most of western powers has given it's blessings, because of ethnocentric, the will to power and anthropocentric world view is at play, some human beings are not considered fully humans, like Palestinian civilians. Long ago Plato informed us that democracy degenerates into tyranny. 1. Politicians will be chosen on popularity, the Triumph of Image Over Substance. 2. Politicians ponder to wishes of the people rather than what they think is right, if not they will be thrown out of office. 3. Leaders in democracy are also tempted to focus on short term goals at the expense of long term needs of society. 4. It's always easier on democratic politicians to give things to the people rather than to ask for sacrifices. The breath of politician's vision is equal to the number of days left his/her term in office.

[@MendeMaria-ej8bf]

Why is there so much violence in societies with religious governments? I really would like to know.

[@ishxyzaak]

Which ones is that?

[@MendeMaria-ej8bf]

@@ishxyzaak Well, Iran as one example.

[@ishxyzaak]

@MendeMaria-ej8bf as far as I know, iran is one of the peaceful countries in the Middle East. Protests happen in every country if that's what you are referring to. The two biggest world wars were caused by secular European nations and the cold War was fought primarily between secular nations.

[@MendeMaria-ej8bf]

@@ishxyzaak Well, monarchies are not better. The first World War was triggered by the German emperor William II. Why do you think there are mass protests in Iran and why are they so brutally fought if the country is one of the most peaceful in the region?

[@ishxyzaak]

@MendeMaria-ej8bf there were mass protests in the US for the last few years and mass looting, so does that mean secular governments are prone to violence?

[@susprofile456]

Hasan Spiker > Hasan Piker

[@abdulsamee4284]

First ❤

[@come_to.piece-]

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