The REAL Reason People Are Skipping Your Song

[@treyxaviermusic]

Wanna turn your RIFFS into SONGS? Take the 7 Day Riff-To-Song Challenge FREE: bit.ly/7DAYRIFFTOSONG

[@TheArtofGuitar]

If you're really in it for the music, just go back to being creative instead of trying to capture the attention of the short-attention span crowd. If 95% of people skip your tune because it has a two-minute intro before it even kicks in, then you still have that 5% of a loyal crowd that love what you're doing. Build on that. It's better to have less fans who are loyal than a huge fanbase who only want a catchy hook that they could get anywhere else. Now if all you want are numbers and money, different story. However, making music for the love of the music is sustainable and will more likely lead to you having success of some kind because you'll keep doing it no matter what. Those who just want the numbers often get frustrated when it's not happening fast enough and quit.

[@halluciniinja]

Well put

[@treyxaviermusic]

I agree with most of this on principle, but only if you're ACTUALLY being creative and not just putting a self-indulgent 2 minutes of unrelated garbage in front of a good song. A Change of Seasons has a long af intro, but it has the opposite effect of the kind of intro I'm speaking against in the video - it draws you in and hints at the amazing (very long) ride to come. The length of your song or intro is less important than its artistic and narrative value - without that, you won't have that 5% of hardcore loyal fans OR numbers and money. Keep in mind, this video was made mainly as a response to the local band-style songwriting that I see over and over where they just don't have a handle on basic structure stuff yet.

[@firdeye2681]

@@treyxaviermusic Well put. Glad we have people around that can help others see the what really matters in songwriting and catching an audiences ear

[@charlesrocks]

@The-Art-of-Guitar Like…that’s your opinion man. That’s not really the point Trey is making here. What he’s saying is grab your audience by the neck beard and hump them into submission with THE RIFF or the main theme of the song, and not like bludgeon them with weird riffs until the song blossoms into this thing you think is cool but 95% of everyone around you is already tuned out on. The era of the neckbeard is over. Let’s write music everyone can enjoy for a bit, yeah?

[@SwBeyond]

​@@treyxaviermusic Yes, but your starting point is sort of that the intro IS "self-indulgent 2 minutes of unrelated garbage" and it really does NOT have to be the case. A good intro sets the mood for the song or it could even be a break from the rest of an album. So as much as I see what you're trying to do here, and I do get that it is from a good place, I think the result of videos like this could very well be generic sounding bands, which in many cases seem to be the case these days: Same 3:45 song structure ("Here's how you write a song- don't bore us, get to the chorus!", same VST ("Here's how to get a killer tone!"), same use of harmonics ("Here's how you use harmonics!") and riffs ("Here's how to write a killer metal riff!"). So I agree with The-Art-of-Guitar here: If folks don't have attention span to listen through a/my intro, then fine. They're probably not gonna be very interested in the rest either.

[@alexobregonbauluz3304]

the entire cinematography of this video is excellent and surprisingly well executed. well done trey

[@tonepursuit7110]

Jeez this new way of filming and editing your videos is great and definitely hold the attention bro! Great job!

[@warpig2786]

reminds me of Veritasium, that channels production is way above youtube, finer almost of what you see on the telly xD

[@treyxaviermusic]

Damn I dunno if I'm anywhere near that level but if you even thought of it I'm flattered haha

[@whosyabobby]

This is what record labels would tell rockstars and they would walk out. It’s not a product to sell. Unless you are into that. Just write it the way you like. If it gets popular then cool. If you do this, you are making pop music.

[@Rachel8260]

what the fuck do you think the pop in pop music stands for

[@alexobregonbauluz3304]

holy shit give that editor a raise!

[@treyxaviermusic]

don't give him any ideas

[@ConnorGilks]

What makes you think he pays me at all?

[@treyxaviermusic]

get back in your cage! who let you out?

[@ConnorGilks]

@@treyxaviermusic Blame the one-handed Nameless Ghoul, he's SURPRISINGLY good at lock picking one-handed.

[@amberr_is_dumb]

@@ConnorGilks He helped YOU! Me and the one handed goul had a pact!

[@chiefmachine24]

Some solid advice while getting straight to the point. Well done

[@michaeltronson]

I agree that the advice in this video is great for concise, efficient song writing for 2022. However I do worry that telling people specific rules about how they should write songs only adds to the homogenisation of modern music. We are already at a point in culture where the creative snake is eating its own tail and I think experimentation needs to be prioritised in order to break that cycle. I would love to see a video made specifically for the consumers of music arguing why you shouldn't skip songs at all and how we are all missing out on so much by doing so. Love your videos Trey just some thoughts from my brain :)

[@vlyrch]

Yeah, and it's also assuming that the listeners would like the song if it wasn't for the intro, and that their attention spans are long enough for the rest of the song even if they like it. Neither of these is necessarily true, and "blaming" artists like they're doing something "wrong" is counterproductive. Artists shouldn't make their art conform to the expectations of their audience in any case, let alone the expectations of some hypothetical potential audience. The "weirder" your music is, the more likely it is that the people who find it are simply not interested in that style of music and were expecting something different (probably something less "weird"), and THAT'S why they're skipping it. This is especially obvious when people say "there's potential in your music, but you need to [change thing]". If someone says that, they're probably not part of your target audience... As for the homogenisation of modern music, I'm not sure if that's really happening? To me it seems more like the lines between different styles of music are becoming increasingly blurred, which is arguably "experimental" by default. With rock and metal in particular, the borders between subgenres are becoming less rigid and it's becoming more "acceptable" to mix influences from other genres, but there are still more bands doing the subgenres being combined than combining them. Besides, bands copying each other has always been a thing, and the sound of modern metal is constantly shifting and also branching off into what will presumably end up being new subgenres. It's probably more an illusion because "influencer-influenced metal" is all over KZbin. That said, I agree with the concern that the attitudes of "music influencers" lean too much towards "specific rules". It's probably in part a side effect of having to cater to the algorithm, and videos like this are effective since musicians will click on them either way, whether they want to learn tricks or to comment on them to disagree. And yeah, they could even be "harmful" if taken as absolute truth, since getting listeners is a lot more complex than just getting intros right or any other "tricks". Like Trey even said in the video, nowadays there are a lot more bands competing for attention. You could make songs engineered for maximum success and still get zero listens, because at the end of the day people need to find your music. I'm pretty sure that's the hardest part, and there's no magic trick for solving it... I miss Myspace haha. (Sorry for how long this comment ended up being.)

[@therealmccoyruf]

Yeah it’s the way it is being said in the video, using words like “objectively”, and sounding super judgmental. I would encourage people to do whatever the hell they want to do, maybe I’m weird.

[@sqlb3rn]

But then how would he sell courses for $250

[@manny75586]

This really touches on one of the harder skills to develop: listening to what you write dispassionately. Most people either fall in love with everything they write or hate it. Learning to listen from the perspective of the audience you wish to reach. Long introduction parts with little/nothing related to the rest of the song are definitely something to consider depending on the audience you are wishing to reach. A Dream Theater fan is going to give you a lot more time to explore ideas than a Maroon 5 fan is.

[@toemasmeems]

Trey I just wanna say I did you 7 day challenge and I got so many compliments on how it was the most cohesive song I've written, and while before I tried to avoid typical arrangements...I'm SO glad I faced the challenge because it helped me on so many levels that a comment really can't explain.

[@MattPula]

rollercoaster tycoon, hell ya

[@treyxaviermusic]

it was you all along

[@MattPula]

@@treyxaviermusic yeah baby, hop on papa pula and take a ride!

[@nameisrubin191]

That video-editing is so *chef's kiss*

[@RokDAWG1]

One of the biggest A list artists told me not long ago that we should write for ourselves to be successful. He also came from a time where record labels allowed growth and development of the artist before the “hits”. That’s what worked many moons ago. Trey you are definitely hitting main points! As a guy (me) who was a ghost guitar player in the big boy industry & understands formula writing & actual song writing…I see you Trey knocking it right on the head! 🤘

[@TheLateBoyScout]

Basically, make your song flow like this video. Tease a great theme at the opening, then deliver that theme throughout the song while expanding and branching off it in the most interesting and dynamic way you can. Well done! Also, I'm dropping a new song on my channel on Friday. Stop by and tell me if it sucks or not.

[@treyxaviermusic]

You should come by my Friday stream with your song!

[@TheLateBoyScout]

@@treyxaviermusic I might do that! 🤘

[@xamislimelight8965]

As my former keyboard player said to my former bassist: "the problem is, I ordered french fries, but you brought me potatoes. Yeah, close, but the song isn't about cutting the potato. Thats what prep work is for. Let's try again."

[@mayrakoira5397]

Well... For singles and such, to get people excited, you should have this approach. But in albums you could have long intros on some songs and also have those singles in them. I think that both ways work in different occasions.

[@jaredhelms4768]

This makes sense for singles and such. I agree. But metal music is largely based on unpredictability.

[@WraithVanglorious]

KFFBJKFHDSJKDFVHJD The fact that he said an intro should never be its own distinct part of a song that never reoccurs.... I fucking love when bands do that (tastefully!) - gives the song depth and shows the band isn't all about 1 riff per song or just repeating shit over and over.

[@markgueren9633]

Holy crap!!! Next level videography!!!! Nicely done!!!

[@charlesrocks]

Probably the best regular Trey video to date.

[@treyxaviermusic]

yesssss

[@SorooshMhs]

What Trey is saying definitely applies, unless: 1. You’re Metallica 2. You have a real purpose for doing it that way (ie it’s like an overture in a concept album, or stuff like that) 3. You know for sure that your audience has a longer attention span

[@orlock20]

Metallica fell by the wayside because it couldn't keep up with those with short attention spans.

[@SorooshMhs]

@@orlock20 no. Metallica are still Metallica because they are Metallica hehe

[@scottnelle]

I wouldn't be surprised if most overtures are written after the bulk of the concept album. How else would you know what themes you're introducing? I suspect this video about writing one song is 100% applicable to writing a concept album.

[@jasonday8334]

😂🤘

[@SorooshMhs]

@@scottnelle well Dream Theater kinda did it haha (by accident), 7 years apart actually. But you’re right. What I meant was writing the Overture itself from the intro

[@LucasMastropasqua]

This is actually some of the most useful info I’ve ever seen on KZbin. I honestly haven’t seen any videos covering this much if at all either. Good stuff man!

[@idiotburns]

Best intros have nothing to do with the song and are like 3 minutes, the best

[@idiotburns]

Think Anthrax!!!!!

[@corey.flowers]

The important part here is be your own editor/critic. Go back and listen. Make revisions. That's the craft. It's like writing a paper--if you get stuck, get a buddy to peer review!

[@ultimomos5918]

and one that won't bullshit you either. Better yet, get complete strangers to listen and don't tell them its your song. That will be a pretty clear indicator of where your music sits with people

[@ryanohlson4181]

Something else that I think works, specifically for epic songs that try to tell a story, is to try to set it up somewhat like a classical piece with movements. If the intro has a bit more meat to it and almost acts as a satisfying smaller piece that builds into the main course, I think that can also be really effective. But it has to be really intentional, and it has to take the listener to something bigger. That's obviously more advanced, but it's an approach that I do like myself.

[@WraithVanglorious]

THIS!!! >>>>>>> hell yea

[@yungvirticus]

Trey glowing up something fierce in 2Q 2022- awesome video, super helpful info, engaging presentation.

[@millennialanimal]

I never knew I needed to see Trey out in the mountains, but I did. Great video Trey, like, really good.

[@OCNmeticadpa]

Hey Trey, love your reference to TBDM! I was thinking of exactly this song the other day because I love how it just jumps straight in. I think they do intros so so well generally.

[@bigkidband5731]

Great Advice, Trey! ... The editing on this video is the bomb!

[@Untoldanimations]

0:00 that hand clapping/snapping noise thing also immediately makes me wanna cease listening

[@pauliusmscichauskas558]

I don't see anything wrong with writing the song in chronological order. You go by imagining that you are the listener, with a "Choose your own adventure" kind of an experience. You hear how it starts, and you choose what comes next by what you know would make you, the listener, the most entertained. And then, if it goes somewhere where the intro doesn't fit anymore, you get back there and change it...

[@treyxaviermusic]

Like anything else, if you can pull it off, then great! I just haven't seen it done all that often

[@itrytodothings7320]

there is dozens of songs in metal that started with smooth stuff, classical instrument and then destroy humanity with the bigest distortion ever...

[@lionsatmidnight]

“It’s not a self indulging riff dump.” Needs to be said again. 😂

[@ruddwoodstudios3084]

Spot on! I Love the new approach you have taken on your videos man. Stepping them up!

[@voicehacks]

Bro your edit/filming looks great #goals

[@treyxaviermusic]

Thanks Mary, been working on it real hard haha

[@fourspiralarms]

Great video. This scripting/editing style reminds me of "good eats" one the the best shows out there imo. Well done mate!

[@Joey.Darkwoods-Studio]

Without a doubt, one of the top 5 channels to watch... Trey, your channel and the information you provide us is amazing. thank you!

[@treyxaviermusic]

How sweet are you! Thanks dawg

[@TheOriginalEUrban]

You're in luck, my song is a roller coaster of tea-cups!

[@That_many_watts]

Definitely hitting the nail on the head. Love the honesty! Love this content

[@BcBaxley]

I enjoyed being informed to a boatsful scenery 😎🤘My intros are most dope 🍻

[@grumpyrocker]

Just create the art you want. If you want a long twiddly intro then go for it. In it for the art or writing advertising jingles?

[@hellis488]

Awesome video! Definitely some great advice in this one

[@MetalJare]

I always writ the song chronologically, although it starts with one riff that rules it all.. so, without knowing it, i've been apliying the rule of usin the main riff during the intro always XD

[@Sharpie360]

the best ever ANTI-EXAMPLE i can think of is New Found Glory's album Catalyst. Intro Track - in your face right away - high bpm punk beat and guitar riffs - quick changes in parts - punk af to the core All Down Hill From Here - much slower - and longer - more catchy - acoustic bridge - rock style "everything comes together at the end" last chorus EVERY OTHER SONG - my girlfriend left me - im such a wimp, let me cry in peace - this a song for you babe ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ never have i been so disappointed, even knowing what they are now when going into this listen to this all over again. IMO.

[@BleuRoseDesigns]

If this video was a song, I'd be hooked and keep listening because it delivers the whole time 👍👌❤️

[@saulgoodman1390]

Great points, excellent lighting, well edited, and a cameo by Glenn... what more can you ask for?!

[@davejefferson2695]

Holy shit Idk what was more interesting, the filming of the video or the content itself!! ❤️

[@letronix6243]

straight to 200bpm death rocket start or drum solo intro is what i go with all the time.

[@9hk38f]

Me: who for whatever sub conscious reason, always unintentionally write intro's/solo's first. What dark sorcery is this war lock speaking of? What madness is this? Such a simple, yet profound concept. One of those, I want to bash my head on the wall, and say, why didn't I think of that, moments.

[@ryanwilson5936]

I think a big problem today, regardless of genre, is that people forget what makes a good song good: the story it tells. Music can tell a story without lyrics and so many people use music as a voice but not very many of them teach their instrument how to speak.

[@WIMPY86]

But I must have the 3 minute graveyard scenario with rolling fog!

[@Just-Michael]

I disagree. I almost always write my songs chronologically, even after like 15 years. I write by feel, not by formula. I never open a session in my DAW and think about what I *need* to write. I don't need to write anything. I start with the main idea, and after every section, I think about what naturally comes next or what would be cool to come next. Sometimes that results in a standard structure, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the into is a minute long, sometimes there isn't an intro at all. Actually, if I do think about something when writing it's usually the length of the song. Sometimes I want to write a 1 minute song, but sometimes I like writing 10 minute songs. Music is fun and creative. If your goal is to just get a basic song then this is great advice. However, I think it's kind of strange how we talk about being unique and finding your own sound and all that, but when it comes to song structure - paint by numbers. There are a lot of great songs that I love that follow a regular formula, but I do also love really weird songs with no structure. I know this is more focused on new writers, but like have fun damn it. Why sit around writing the basics like boring, predictable modern metalcore, when you could just be vibin'? 😎

[@nintendad1166]

2:40 great justification. We were all thinking of those bands.

[@andrewjacksonmusic]

Great video Trey. Loved the new format. Although you have now given yourself a shed load more work for every video from now on 😂 and your editor.

[@pietandersen6120]

“Think about the last time you listened to a new artist, how long did you give them?” I listened to the 9 minute intro track to Abandons last album The Dead End, which is just the same 4 chords repeated over and over again on a synth with some creepy ambience. Honestly great video though Trey, I know I’m in the minority of music listeners who wants to go on meditative journeys with funeral doom and sludge bands. In my own band we almost always start with a main riff that we then build the song out from, and it makes much more engaging songs that actually feel like they go somewhere.

[@filip100000]

Exactly. 'Octavarium' by Dream Theater anyone?

[@sqlb3rn]

I listened to Kirk Hammetts entire solo album even though the first two tracks sucked. But then I'm not a child that gets my music in 4 minute TikTok bites

[@Psychlist1972]

This is so true. It's also when, when writing books, it's often best to write any intro after all or most of the rest of the book is done.

[@turbine3780]

great video, i always ending up hating the first riff i write for an idea anyway so just not seems like a great idea

[@markuselipka]

if i were to make my compositions dependent on the attention span of some listeners who have never learned to listen to music at all, i could stop producing music immediately. whether else a 2min intro is considered boring or not is either a question of personal taste or/and the composer's 'craftsmanship'. however - i use to produce music for interested people, not for people for whom music is a fleeting fashion item. art or business? business nullifies art in general. or have i misunderstood something? cheeeerz!

[@down1tone]

great advice and props on the editing too!

[@replicantwanderlust]

Roller Coaster Tycoon! What a game!

[@nooneinparticular9868]

I love your choice to be outside at the beginning. How David Attenborough

[@LordsoftheTrident]

I LOVE how many super creative transitions and locations you used. #JustVideoMakerThings

[@richmerlino2020]

The sound effect ~5:20 has me lol'ing. I went back 3x to hear it again.

[@IEnattI]

Very important comment for RCT lovers, if you don't know there is a version called Open RCT, which is RCT1 and 2 together with upcoming update raising limits for everything! No more 255 ride limit in Sandbox mode and much much more!

[@vanessaburns03]

This perfectly articulates why I love and hate 3 Days by Janes Addiction.

[@th-lg7no]

your transitions are insane dude

[@Ouvii]

The intro is like the prologue of a fantasy novel. Take it out unless the actual beginning of your song doesn't correctly set expectations for the rest of the song. For example: you have clean singing and screaming (that otherwise doesn't normally fit into your subgenre) in your chorus or bridge or something, but that is the first time it happens in your song, so maybe make an intro with screams. Alternatively, maybe you have an energetic metal song, but the first verse is subdued vocals and piano or something, in which case you might intro your song with a heavy riff. Sorta like how an epic fantasy series might start with a ridiculous display of gods and the creation of the world in the prologue because a normal farmboy-the actual start of the story-doesn't exactly set the tone for the cosmic struggle that the series will turn into.

[@tbaudio3310]

I don't know why I never thought to write an intro last or later in the songwriting process. Haha. Thanks Trey, for always sharing great songwriting tips.

[@rubenlodewijk5023]

I like to build up tention towards the chorus. So strings are playing the melody slower and build up layers. When the first chorus hits, the strings go double time.

[@Gamer-Sage]

my songs though are some of my most popular videos yet i dont even know what my song is going to sound like when i start recording it

[@SalAveNU]

This has me re-thinking the intro to one of my songs.

[@devin7141]

Nice edits 👍

[@boots_33]

Songwriting doesn't have rules. Do whatever the fuck you want.

[@nohero178]

Kudos on the great editing.

[@princess-kira]

Depends on the genre. Metal/rock I expect the intro to be at least similar to a stripped down version of the verse, or chorus, whichever comes first. Most of the music I make doesn't follow that logic, but it's a different genre (deathstep). I typically do a 16 bar intro that doesn't get repeated at all through the rest of the track, except on occasion as an outro.

[@TiniMaker]

Making beats taught me a while lot about arranging

[@nedim_guitar]

This is very helpful! I mean, I often write a part that feels perfect for chorus and sometimes that's the intro too. Aerosmith does that often, speaking of legacy bands. I've even cut intros and made them into interludes because they just didn't fit.

[@dexterdeth]

I am on a Trey trip tonight, and when I'm tripping, I never experience time linearly.

[@TimSamoff]

Super Mario Bros World 1-1 was one of the last levels that Shirgero Miamoto and his team designed.

[@lostless]

I so agree with this. I once had a work acquaintance that gave me his bands cd and the first song had this nice and smooth intro riff. I lost the CD so i dont remember what it sounded like, but it got me hooked. Then suddenly, the song goes harder metal, no bid deal, but the riff never came back in anyway or form. I was waiting for it for the whole song and i remember feeling disappointed and empty, even though the rest of the song was good.

[@ThomasECahill]

Great editing!

[@KFR559]

Bro, how do you only have 200k followers? You’re seriously the best kept secret. Hope you blow up soon homie. Love your content.

[@treyxaviermusic]

I appreciate that a great deal! Hopefully the secret gets out hahaha

[@JupiterFerrari]

I learned how to write songs by copying the formats of my favorite bands that were featured in magazines such as, "Guitar for the Practicing Musician". With their gratuitous use of terms like, "Rhythm Fig. 1, Rhythm Fig. 2, Rhythm Fig. 3, etc." I learned how to write musical blocks and tie them together. But I started playing guitar in 1984, when times were different. Great video, Trey! Thanks for posting!! Love your work, brother.

[@michaelvarney.]

Mount Diablo… nice.

[@TheMetalHeathen]

Great big production for Glenn to shout out again, "get to the point"! Which finally came in after 4+ minutes of your rambling. Was this your subliminal point?

[@elblopex]

I tend to go to the middle of the song when listening a new artist to see if I dig the style. I do this for 3 or 4 different songs in 2 or 3 different albums and then stick or leave

[@kabudahtv331]

That’s was some great advice! Thank you

[@CreativeMindsAudio]

to be fair i'll write the riffs for each part and the intro can hint at the verse or chorus. So sometimes i'll just write the intro as a way to build out the song. i'll take that riff extract the chords then use those chords held out for the chorus and slow the intro riff down and play it lower on the neck for the verses. the key is that everything has to flow and have it's place. I am so sick of riff salad. hoping between you and glenn we get quality metal back in abundance! 3:15 when trey almost died by falling down a hiking trail cliff. also editing and video format is top notch for this video. i really dig this format. very fun vlog like.

[@Javier-qk7ms]

I think the most successful bands know how to deal with a healthy mix of "catchy" and "sophisticated" songs in an album, and the most successful ones can do "catchy and sophisticated" songs.

[@MunchiesMusicMadness]

Hey mangreat video I'm into old school punk rock I really have no use for intros but you gave me a few tips that I see as very useful thanks dude

[@justinc246]

This editing and video composition gives me Bill Nye the Science Guy vibes

[@nachshonrorick]

and then we wouldn't have Dark Side of the Moon...

[@JayJaymusic]

This is definitely the most entertaining tip video that I've ever watched! Haha

[@sayonilmitra]

04:37 That was beautiful, just like metal

[@OutsiderXI]

With all these beautiful song videos, HSAM interviews, and song structure courses, when songwriting contest 2022?

[@treyxaviermusic]

2027

[@resington]

This is a great point!

[@900dr34u]

Dude, you're so on it! Very very good info!

[@korykoster8532]

Literal LOL when Grandma Glen showed up.

[@SeemoreFrames]

The editing/transitions reminded me of Bill Nye, such good vibes.

[@immyownbestfriend9338]

thank you for this advice