Gender Critical?? Call Arden Hart & Josie Caballero | Trans-Atlantic 05.23.24

05.23.24 Featuring Arden Hart & Josie Caballero
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Dr. Aaron Adair
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[@FaiaHalo]

3:28 Last Week's Poll. 10:43 This Week's Poll. 16:07 Matt (he/him) | [Crunchy audio on Caller's end] Caller doesn't understand trans people's lived experiences and wants to learn more, so he asks hosts about it. [Nice call!] 37:09 Announcements. 38:38 Aaron (he/him) | Caller says that non-binary people don't make any sense to him, so he also asks hosts clarifying questions to better understand them. [This was great too!] 51:57 Jeremiah (he/him) | Caller realizes there's a huge disparity of access to testosterone treatment for cis men compared to trans men, so he wonders what he can do to push back against it. 1:01:02 Matt (none given) | Caller claims to "care about language" just to claim that trans people existing is "an opinion" [yes, literally...] 1:25:40 Godseed (none given) | Caller wonders "how do I know [all this gender non-binary stuff] isn't some kind of faith-based system?" [Great call, surprisingly!] 1:38:02 Levi (he/him) | "Is it worth holding a friend that is willing to identify themselves as a TERF?" 1:50:29 Seph (he/him) | Caller wants to talk about the debate around trans women in sports. 2:17:14 Superchats.

[@AmberAmber]

TY Faia ❤❤

[@amathystunicorn]

Thank you very much Faia💜🦄

[@tombraybrook6650]

Thank you 😊

[@_allegra]

Legend ❤

[@freakishuproar1168]

Thank you Faia! :3 I always appreciate reading your snippets of insight on each caller alongside the timestamps 🏳‍⚧

[@dannolte5384]

As a cis/het white guy, I've never had to deal with a lot of the issues you have. That's why I listen to this show, in particular. Thank you.

[@AlyssaNguyen]

Saying that coming out is removing the Stone of Shame and transitioning, especially in the face of adversity, is attaching the Stone of Triumph was meant as an analogy. By coming out, you've removed the burden of guilt and shame. Transitioning, especially in the face of adversity, brings its own burdens and challenges.

[@ponyboygarfunkel1675]

>" Transitioning, especially in the face of adversity, brings its own burdens and challenges."< Perhaps the biggest challenge is the fact that it defies observable reality. A man with a penis can not "transition" into a woman. Anatomy is real.

[@edardsplittooth7695]

​@@ponyboygarfunkel1675 anatomy can be changed

[@ponyboygarfunkel1675]

@@edardsplittooth7695 >"anatomy can be changed"< A man with a penis cannot change into a woman.

[@ponyboygarfunkel1675]

@@edardsplittooth7695 >"anatomy can be changed"< A man with a penis can never become a woman.

[@ponyboygarfunkel1675]

@@edardsplittooth7695 >"anatomy can be changed"< A man with a penis can never become a woman.

[@CurtainRod]

I cannot believe how quickly that Godseed call went 180 degrees from my expectations lol

[@PeteyHoudini]

Great show. My fav. Ice cream is rainbow Neapolitan.

[@wordscapes5690]

Some people try so hard to find a reason to justify the horrible way they want to treat trans people. Why? Is it enjoyable in some way? I will never understand it.

[@edardsplittooth7695]

People like Matt No.2, it feels like they refuse to understand. It doesn't seem to matter how thoroughly you explain

[@lizzieh5284]

They dont want to understand because they never take the time to look at why they think the way they do. I am sick of reading vile comments (here and on other websites) from people who know absolutely nothing about this subject. You can imagine this vitriol against the gay and black community years ago. It now seems acceptable to target the trans community and portray them the same.

[@lauraduarte712]

I’m glad I got to catch the show live today!

[@vernendalespellands]

I only recently found The Line and have been enjoying it. TACIS has a very different vibe and I'm happy to learn more about trans folk from it. Based on the other shows, I was expecting Matt (UK) to get shut down, but the patience Arden and Josie exhibited (for all callers, really) was refreshing and I honestly look forward to seeing where the conversation goes next. Also, Shaun mistyped his prime proof. "is 1" should have been moved to the end of the statement. 1 modulo any integer greater than 1 is always 1.

[@athywren]

2:14:46 @Seph erm… it wasn’t about the right to get married in a church specifically - it was about the right to get married at all. Idgaf if a church was involved, no religion owns marriage, certainly not Christianity - it predates Judaism so Christianity has less than no claim to ownership of it. The point is being able as someone in a gay relationship to have that relationship recognised by the state and take advantage of the social benefits that come from that recognition such as, for an example relevant to that time the right to be recognised as your partner’s next of kin when they’re in hospital, potentially dying of a disease like AIDS, rather than being kicked out so their homophobic family can isolate them from their loved ones in their dying days. For all that it’s presented as demanding the churches bow down to us or evilly forcing bakers to bake sin cakes so that we can maliciously damn eternal souls for the sake of an indulgent party, what we were actually fighting for was quite literally a matter of dignity in life and death.

[@KattDa]

That is such a potent explaination of what is at stake, thank you.

[@cullenarthur8879]

"do you trust Trump with trans issues?" Is that supposed to be a joke?

[@SootyTX]

Serious props to both hosts on the call out with Matt, no pass, esp from Arden. And zero disrespect to Matt, clearly just trying to understand. As a GenX, totally support the lean into angry, its 100% ok, valid and, fundamentally, should be expected by those intolerant. ❤❤❤

[@jaimefernandez2624]

matt seems very clearly a liar to me, "i just care about language" but they dont even know that two words can have the same meaning and one word can have more than one meaning, obviously they dont care about language. they just dont want to say what they really think.

[@user-gl5sx9zg1h]

Thank you, Matt, Josie & Arden. That conversation helped me to know how to explain my experience to cis people who want to understand me better! ❤

[@beat0life]

Callers stop the "mhmm, yeah, right, ok" while the hosts are talking 😅 PLEASE

[@beat0life]

Matt was a great caller but the MHMMM every 10 seconds was painful 😅

[@ZiggyTabbyCat]

I know, right?! I think they're just showing that they're actively listening and engaging in the conversation. That's nice and all, but not great for a call-in show

[@adreanqq7276]

Maybe they are intently listening every time but whenever I hear the mmhm every 5 seconds I assume they've checked out and want the conversation to move on to something else. Could be in most cases an adhd tick though.

[@silverwing4153]

Chess, darts, sailing, pool... all of these sports tend to be boy clubs. Are these officials just scared that anyone resembling a woman may do well in their sport?

[@John-sl3lu]

Great show guys .♥️♥️♥️👍👍👍

[@badger1296]

Philosophy Tube's new video on the most misunderstood philosopher really paints a clear picture of people's 'ignorance' of trans issues. 👍

[@kamenomagic]

Matt had a geiger counter going off lol

[@tms012493]

Yes you can get DNA from a blood sample. No it is not sufficient to conclude whether someone is trans or cis. Or at least with current science.

[@AmyGrape-wc9uy]

Im silly but I just noticed the banner are the trans colors and I love that. Hopefully my silliness can boost some engagement!

[@catoboros]

Thank you for explaining nonbinary people to callers. My motivation was mostly my aversion to my agab. Good to see this makes a nice nonbinary-in-a-nutshell! Josie, although there is no DNA in red blood cells, there is DNA is every white blood cell, but biology ≠ gender. Arden, Susan Stryker's legendary 1994 article "My Words to Victor Frankenstein above the Village of Chamounix" is subtitled "Performing Transgender Rage"! Everyone should read it. There is a free PDF online. She ends with her dark benediction: "If this is your path, as it is mine, let me offer whatever solace you may find in this monstrous benediction: May you discover the enlivening power of darkness within yourself. May it nourish your rage. May your rage inform your actions, and your actions transform you as you struggle to transform your world." 🔥❤🏳‍🌈🏳‍⚧💛🤍💜🖤

[@lenbones7940]

lets just do a hats off to Matt for asking the question that allowed the hosts to share things about themselves that cut threw ignorance like a laser thru smoke... its truly epic when a convo like this happens it should embarrass just how outta pocket and childish other people choose to communicate... im glad everyone got to sit at the big kid table for alil today

[@Battleress2]

arden thank you for your description of amab transition to nonbinary!! i feel so seen~ TwT im maverique nb, which is basically just, i am specifically they/them, not just "not he/him or she/her" y'know? and it's so nice to see nb visibility that's not just an afterthought lol thanks 🥰

[@beckvagnarelli2784]

I said this once but I'll say it again, I love Josie!

[@miitheweirdartist6794]

Cis woman.....trans woman..ate both women. Just as a robin and a crow are both birds...just different types...how hard is that to understand...the word woman..isn't bound to only cis women..

[@daviddambrosio8247]

Sea horses are horses. How hard is that to understand?

[@grumpyoldman6503]

​@daviddambrosio8247 comment has "attack helicopter" vibes and I want to extend the benefit of the doubt so I'll bite- Sea horses and land horses aren't even the same species so not a great analogy to make whatever was your point. Perhaps you want to rephrase your comment? Language is both culturally constructed as well as descriptive instead of prescriptive. Thus cis and trans prefixes.

[@sameagain4968]

@@daviddambrosio8247Hey look, it’s someone arguing against feminist issues by comparing women to animals/objects again.

[@daviddambrosio8247]

@@grumpyoldman6503 So what is it about men that would make them women?

[@daviddambrosio8247]

@@sameagain4968 I argue against men saying they are women, against men saying that Feminism belongs to them. It’s a very pro Feminism position to hold.

[@eldritchwulfe]

39:00 I came out of the closet as non-binary about a month ago and Arden said it perfectly. I'm defo not a woman but male...errrr not so much either :P Still using he/him though because I'm an autie and ADHD in my 50s and not sure how changing those will go Thank you too for the call Aaron

[@af2313]

Look, I miss Katy, but lovely to see both of you today instead!

[@TimPetrone]

so I'm a cis gay man...43 years old...been single for 23 years, because I tend to either fall for straight men, or gay men that treat me like garbage. I'm average looking, but feel very ugly, because I've been torn down so much. I have severe depressive and anxiety disorders that are disabling and treatment-resistant. For the past few years I've found myself quite attracted to trans men. Not in a sexual way or whatever...but I can't help but feel like a trans man would treat me better. I've been treated so bad by men, but women have always been good to me. Since trans men were or are biological females, I just think they'd be better to me than a cis man would. That kind of feels wrong, tho, because I'm still not fully seeing trans men as just "men". I don't think of them as 100% equal to men. There's this part of me that see's them as men who were formerly women, and as true as that may be, I'm trying to view trans men and trans women as just men and women. Any thoughts?? Am I wrong to feel the way I do??

[@AmberAmber]

Your feelings cant be wrong cos only actions can be. Im an untransitioned trans guy (my health is too crap for hormones) & i feel like my relationships with trans guys & gals have been the most healthy ones ive personally ever had (I used to i'd as a lesbian - now i think im pansexual cos im attracted to anyone whos kind). So i think your feelings are valid, & as you are merely seeking acceptance? You make sense. And theres a diff between trans & cis individuals - one groups gender doesnt match their bits, & one groups does. No more odd to acknowlege in a hate-free way than to also acknowledge that gay people & straight people differ in the same way. These differences seem to be the results of in utero hormone exposure, & being born gay/trans is reality. I dont see you fighting to take away human rights & i dont see you being overtly cruel. So i dont think you're bad. So long as you arent viewing & acting as if trans people are lesser than? You're probs good.

[@ElenaAideen]

Understanding that a trans person has a different lived experience from most others is reasonable. Making assumptions about their behavior based on their gender assigned at birth is however an indicator of potential internalized bias. It is worth recognizing that you might be projecting your expectations, and to monitor this. If those expectations are the basis of your attraction, I would say you might want to be very careful as you could indeed be expressing internalized misogyny. If you can separate that and your attraction is not diminished, it could likewise be a very beneficial thing to pursue.

[@colinellicott9737]

@@AmberAmber What? Of course your feelings can be wrong. Ask a pedophile.

[@sirilay]

@Tim One term I've been reminded of from Forrest is phenotypic. Typically "biological" is used by bad acting gender critics, and I think using phenotypic would help set you apart. Wrong is a loaded and vague term. Generally, emotions are never wrong. They just are. Like was said earlier, actions are wrong, but if we start in on thought crime, we're never gonna live healthy lives. The more important part is to determine why you have them. Is the attraction simply based on past experience? If you met a mature, healthy, compassionate gay cis man, would that do it for you? I totally don't want to be the "don't knock it til you try it," because I've never been sexually intimate with a guy, but hypotheticals still help us know ourselves. I think as long as you remain open and try not to cut off valid options due to stereotypes, you're fine.

[@AmberAmber]

@@sirilay Yes!! I forgot about addressing the, "biology applies to all humans"-thing. Great points xoxo

[@j.gairns]

Weird😊😊😊😊, Matt (UK) sounds almost identical to the AXP host Jamie the Blind Limey.

[@brandonburough1215]

To me, he sounds a lot like an alt right youtuber "Sargon of Akkad".

[@randomthoughtstoday]

I have nothing against Transgendered people, but why the hell do we need an entire month to celebrate one group of people? Our veterans who risk their lives for our freedom only get one day of celebration and recognition.

[@NigelXW]

Well, red blood cells don't have a nucleus, which is where DNA is stored, but there are other cells than red in blood

[@xtianhunter]

❤

[@l.b.curlew7929]

Is it just me or has the line been having a lot of technical issues lately? Feels like lots of callers have audio and connection problems more than normal

[@rocketsfan6116]

While I absolutely understand Arden's intention and her point, I still think her example about a woman on a bus claiming she's a teacher could be refined to be more analogous. Whether or not the hypothetical woman is a teacher is something that's objectively verifyable for some/all individuals external to her. A more apt example would be for that same hypothetical woman to tell you that she's lesbian. Both sexual orientation and gender identity are heavily nuanced constructs within the brain determinable by only the person in question.

[@KJDogluv]

Hi folx!

[@craiggoldberg1539]

I think there is a little of poisoning the well, so to speak, by giving your position on the poll before people vote on it.

[@JasakaD]

❤💖💖❣

[@Lench_o]

Wait, I thought we can extract dna from blood!? wtf

[@nathanroe3670]

No one actually cares about language, at least no this guy. He is just a bigot.

[@ryandean5941]

You can get DNA from blood.

[@0Anubi0]

What's this new fad of calling in to compare theism with gender affirmation? Do they really think they're onto something here lol.

[@williammattes1991]

First to dumb😊

[@FaiaHalo]

You're the first to shine, always

[@robertfarris3744]

biden is like trump; he'll let the states decide.

[@seto749]

Ms Hart seems to expect gays to cosign our own invalidation. I'm pleasantly surprised Ms Caballero at least seemed to think gay is still real.

[@_allegra]

Wot? How is Arden implying that being gay isn't real?

[@seto749]

@@_allegra Remember a couple of months ago or so when she said she doesn't even know what gay means anymore. Here she goes on about how fluid everything is, which pretty clearly invited the inference of reducing a permanent exclusive sexuality to a temporary preference. If she genuinely believes gay is valid I'd be grateful to hear her reasoning.

[@botarakutabi1199]

@@seto749Tbf sexuality can be fluid, it can change throughout your lifetime. Especially if they go through a hormonal change. It's valid to be sexually attracted to people of the same gender as you, just be aware that both attraction and gender is fluid and subject to change. Something being valid isn't mutually exclusive to it being fluid or subject to change. Why would you imply it is?

[@daviddambrosio8247]

@@botarakutabi1199 Many gay people have been told what we are is just a phase. Such a view is not new to us.

[@botarakutabi1199]

@@daviddambrosio8247Fluid and "just a phase" are not the same. I was told the same thing about my sexuality, and my gender. Neither were a phase, yet neither are static. Both my gender and sexuality have undergone subtle changes as I have matured, I personally haven't found that to be invalidating at all.

[@TheDiddyDiaries]

So when Matt and Arden hear a strange noise in the middle of the night...who gets up to go check it out?

[@Leith_Crowther]

They probably just send the snakes.

[@TheDiddyDiaries]

​@@Leith_Crowtherno antisemitic comments, please

[@Leith_Crowther]

@@TheDiddyDiariesThey literally have a snake breeding business?

[@TheDiddyDiaries]

Keep the grass cut low y'all

[@dbissex]

@@TheDiddyDiaries Obvious troll is obvious

[@colinellicott9737]

I can only go on what women say about how fearful they are when men enter women's spaces. Also, having had a daughter, there is no way I would want her as a young girl entering a bathroom where men dressed any way they want are in there too. That makes me feel like protector dad mode is needed, and may result in more danger to the trans person than the child. So protect yourselves, stay out of women's spaces for the safety of all involved.

[@dbissex]

As a father of three daughters, what is it that makes you go into "protector mode" over a trans woman in the bathroom? There aren't any men in there with your daughter, so what is it that drives you to be fearful enough to put some stranger in physical danger with absolutely zero provocation? I really want you to think about this for real. Much more than you might by just responding with your first/lizard reaction. It takes work to realize you're conditioned to be prepared for violence, and that bigoted propaganda is working to hijack that in your brain. In a completely related anecdote, I have a friend who is a cis woman in her 50s who is starting to get harrassed by random people that have your exact hijacked "protector mode" that has progressed just a little further than yours. This is a direct result of transphobia trying to insist "what is a woman?" is an important question. The plain fact is that the completely irrational "protector mode" we can drop into has potential to be dangerous. Please work on it. It is far more likely to do damage than it will ever protect anyone.

[@daviddambrosio8247]

@@dbissexIt says something about your credulity if all a man has to do for you to insist up and down, right and left that he is a woman is for him to claim to be one.

[@dominod5640]

@@daviddambrosio8247 It says something about your insecurity if you think people self identifying means they're trying to trick you

[@sameagain4968]

I’m amused that you think that there has been some magical ward of protection on women’s bathrooms that kept all men out until the trans arrived broke the seal or something.

[@_allegra]

Dude, men don't need to pretend to be trans women to invade women's spaces - they just walk in. I'm a trans woman, and despite being hesitant and not wanting to 'impose' myself in women's spaces, I've only ever been invited and welcomed into said spaces. Your problem is that you seem to believe trans women (who completely upend our lives and 'reinvent' ourselves to finally align with our internal sense of self) and predatory cis men who claim to be women - in bad faith - to access women's spaces, are the same. And that takes a deliberate effort to ignore almost everything we say in order to believe that.