Gender in Viking (and other eras) Reenactment

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Gender is a hugely important subject, and discussions of gender identity, non-binary and trans acceptance in societies worldwide, and the historical presence and othering of people who diverge from the "traditional western gender binary" are all over the place. And historical re-enactment and living history haven't escaped the discussion.
Whether you reenact the Romans, the Vikings, the American or British Civil War, or a completely other era, you will probably have encountered issues around gender in the hobby. Heck, it's even appeared in the SCA! So let's have a little chat about the subject, talk about some of the issues at play, the complications of reenacting the past as modern people, and why I can't necessarily help as much as I'd really like to.
And remember the golden rule: be excellent to each other. There's also a PILE of reading below. Have fun!
‪@OpusElenae‬ and the brilliant vids mentioned: • Viking Clothes, But Ma...
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[@TheWelshViking]

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[@beepboop204]

appreciate you

[@Emrys2021]

Nice ad about avoiding ads😒

[@tessiagriffith9555]

Omg! Love that you got sponsored again! Perfect ad for a research encouraging channel!

[@mariannerichard1321]

How to portray a non-binary viking? You have at least another person with you (the more the merrier) who says: "Sven's kid? Yeah, a bit odd, but has a good heart, very helpful around the village."

[@mariannerichard1321]

"hum... the 9th child, no inheritance or dowry left, so it doesn't matter." "With the plague that swept through last summer, it's me, Bjorn and the kid, everyone is so weak, they wouldn't have made it all the way here."

[@jasminv8653]

Also present day Iceland has solved the non-binary patronym already, so you can literally just say Sven's child and make it work. That's all it means at the end of the day.

[@obsidianjane4413]

Excellent. The average medieval male was smaller in stature than the average contemporary female. Likewise, probably anyone today with our modern egalitarian sensibilities would be seen as nimby to the perspective of the past. There really were hard gender roles back (being only a century ago) then. Kinda shows how arbitrary our perceptions are....

[@jasminv8653]

@@obsidianjane4413 sorry, but when you say 'in the past' and 'back then', back when exactly? There are plenty of places and periods in 'the past' where gender roles are not very similar to our near history of the 20th century nuclear family. There have always been societal roles, and often they have been gendered in some way or another, but that doesn't make them 'harder' or 'softer' than our current overarching simple binary that's arguably drawn at its oldest from the 18th century English polite society etiquette.

[@mariannerichard1321]

A non-binary person would sure have been put it the lunatic category, but every village has its odd one. Back in the days, the main goal was to make it through together, as a family and as a village, as long as they are useful, it doesn't matter in the end. However, I don't think they would have had an independent life, they would probably have stayed with their parents at first, then under the care of a sibling in an extended household, then with a nephew if they lived old enough. I do genealogy in 19th century Nova Scotia, looking up the census, there are plenty of older daughters and sons living with their parents, never married; or aunts and uncles never married living with the nephew's family; bunch of siblings living together; grand-parents with their grand-kids. There's also odd things going on in the trade guilds in France and Germany, a guild member once dead could pass the membership to a member of the family; sons, obviously, but widow or daughters too (yes, even blacksmith). It kind of feel weird, until you realise the family was a production unit and if the father was to fall ill or sent to war, the rest of the family had to keep the business running. Also, a widow or daughter having a fully equipped workshop with a costumer list is a bounty for the one too many son of another guild member, it prevent guild members' family to fall into destitution after their death and gives opportunities for the extra sons.

[@SaszaDerRoyt]

As a nonbinary reenactor I often end up switching between male and female kit at shows, as well as ignoring a lot of the silly gendered rules that the Vikings UK group has (e.g. a limit of 3 glass beads for male kit, kinda silly and absolutely disregarded). My group has a fair few other trans and NB folk who end up dressing in both their actual gender kit and other gendered kit depending on whether they want to fight or display certain crafts or just a preference of which kit items to use. We get to use the past as a new road to experimenting with identity and presentation rather than seeing it as a prescriptive limiting factor. Also, I don't want to presume but I think I may well be the one mentioned at 9:40 , I've been working on a Gallus impression for a while and I'm looking forward to doing a whole display for it rather than just wandering around like I did at Eboracum Festival last year

[@SaszaDerRoyt]

I'm also in the research phase of maybe doing kit for the probably trans Roman emperor Elagabalus, but at the moment the kit is way to expensive to think about making, all sorts of fancy wools and silks

[@TheWelshViking]

You are absolutely the Gallus mentioned and we should all check out your amazing work :D

[@CraftsyPenguin]

I knew immediately who Jimmy was referring to :)) Your reenacting kits are great! Glad you're doing all this.

[@MichaelBerthelsen]

I'm in a (to us Scandinavians relatively early) medieval group, and I'd say about... 20-30% of members are non-cishet people, including a transgender man who came out recently, and everyone has been very supportive of him. I know it depends on the group, but some groups are REALLY awesome and supportive. I hope everyone can find supportive groups for their reenactment desires!♥️👍

[@angelaross1]

Frankly, it’s adults playing dress up . . .everyone just be nice. It doesn’t cost you anything to be nice.

[@Derek_Garnham]

yeah, it may be nice to be smart, but it's smart to be nice.

[@OpusElenae]

Oh gosh, thank you so much for the shout out! I appreciate you ❤❤❤

[@lyndseykindred8297]

And we appreciate you!

[@TheWelshViking]

I appreciate you too!

[@loverizzato9081]

This. Is. Amazing!!

[@caspenbee]

Monstrous Regiment by Terry Pratchett is a VERY fun romp exploring gender and the military in a fantasy setting. Only mentioning it here because it provides a plethora of reasonable explanations for female people entering the military as men, at any point in history.

[@tonantzin4977]

Sir Terry, one of the major influences in my life.! Getting close to 70, and ready to reread the entire opus for about the fifth time.

[@tylersdog]

Jimmy: one of the greatest appeals I find of your presentations is your willingness to say "We don't know" about some subject. As a devotee of history (well, bits of history) it is frequently exasperating to discover the numberless assumptions of people about some aspect of the past when in fact we only have, let's say, an object, with no other information on it. Far too frequently this is shovelled into some narrative, but very often there's no evidence at all to back this up. I'm surprised at how few authors will declare 'we don't know' but it is wonderfully refreshing when they do. Just now I'm finishing a book called "Pagan Britain" by Ronald Hutton, which I'm enjoying tremendously, as he is very blunt about the damage that can be done by 'filling in the blanks', as it were, of an historical object with no evidence. Do keep up the wonderful work.

[@dogmaticpyrrhonist543]

It's really any field of study. Immediately suspicious of someone who has all the answers without ever saying we just don't know

[@KalteGeist]

Our 14th century free company troop has a "But we like them" policy. Which means both you and your persona may express yourself however you wish, even if it goes against societal grain (old or modern), because the free company has decided that we like you. Understanding that medieval people were nuanced enough to fight their prejudices only lends to historical accuracy.

[@janebeckman3431]

It's nice to find a historical figure you can model yourself after. In my case, I do English and American Civil War, as a woman serving as a man. For English Civil War, I model myself after a known female highwayman who received a pardon by enlisting in the Royalist forces. In American Civil War, it's Jane Perkins, of the Confederate artillery, who is well documented in a book on her Civil War career, turning from schoolteacher to teamster to cannoneer, to POW. As a female who has always been referred to as "one of the guys," "a female guy" and "an honorary gay man," I wonder how many others in history were like me.

[@lightheidi9009]

That is a great idea. Thank you. Now I want that book.

[@yensid4294]

Ty, I couldn't remember the name of the womean who served in the civil war dressed as a man ❤

[@jwolfe1209]

Probably happened a lot, but most people would pretend not to notice

[@olmanobsilia5343]

Heels, long curly hair, tights, and ballet could refer to 17th century upper class masculinity or 21st century common femininity. History of gender is super interesting and really helps you understand how socially constructed and arbitrary modern concepts of gender are.

[@Krispypeppers]

In case anyone was wondering if Jimmy could get EVEN MORE wholesome... the answer is apparently yes. *round of applause *

[@suburbiaAZ]

Not a re-enactor, but SCAdian here. This conversation has come up in our community as well, and I appreciate that we as a society overall understand we have very specific areas of play that are historically accurate (A&S jumps to mind which covers a lot of what we do) and there are many areas where we don't. We re-create with historical flavor, which keeps the gender bending easy and acceptable in the majority of the society 😊 I wrote this before you shouted us out, I just get excited! So apologies, but thank you for the video!

[@duceagle6625]

My local group, anytime the subject comes up: It's the Society for *Creative Anachronism*.

[@Shannis75]

This pertains to the viking age, but watching this vid I was immediately reminded of the legend of Mjönir being stolen by the Jötunn king Þrymr who promised he'd give it back if he got to marry Freya, so OF COURSE Thor and Loki dressed up as Freya and her maid, and went to steal the hammer back. The story is hilarious, but the joke isn't abt male gods dressing up as female gods, it's abt how Thor constantly forgets to act his part, so Loki has to explain his faux pas to the smitten Þrymr. OfC extrapolating based on a single folk tale/legend that was written down long AFTER the viking age had ended is not enough evidence, but IMO it indicates that maybe the gendered clothing divide wasn't as unsurpassable as we now imagine it being?

[@timmadison5410]

It seems to me that there is an important distinction to be made between a good faith effort to be historically accurate in reenactment and just using it as a gatekeeping measure. No matter how much we try to faithfully evoke the past, we are always doing it within the context of the present and it's silly to act like those things don't co-exist. Recreating the past is always going to require a major act of imagination--no matter how evidence-based it may be, we need to acknowledge all we don't know. It seems like the real value of reenactment is building a community with a shared passion for history, not pointlessly saying who can't participate because they *might* not conform to the gender norm of the period.

[@horseenthusiast1250]

I've been thinking about this a bit lately. I figured out a while ago that I suppose I'm nonbinary, and while I find clothing to be a snap (as I pretty much just re-enact early medieval and ancient cultures, which generally allows me to wear long clothes and be good to go for either end of presentation. Plus I've always felt very comfortable with feminine and masculine clothes, with a preference for anything skirted, so being able to present masculine or feminine while not having to put on pants is literally a dream come true to me), figuring out what I want my persona to be able to do has been something I've wrestled with, as well as choosing names. My only local reenactments are SCA events (which I'm fine with, the SCA has been very fun and felt quite safe where I've been), so I get to wibble that stuff around a bit, but it's a point of personal pride to get my personas as close to historical plausibility as I can, which is why I think about this. Side note, if anyone's got good information on the lives of what we would call non-binary people in golden era Eastern Rome/Byzantium, especially outside Constantinople, I would love to hear about it. I haven't been finding much.

[@CleoHarperReturns]

"We're not using leaches nearly as much as we used to." 🤣 You made me choke on my toothpaste!

[@mirjanbouma]

It's true though, leeches are still used in modern medicine! It's quite an interesting rabbit hole.

[@krysab6125]

We *are* now using them slightly more than we used to - turns out, the wee buggers are really good for cleaning out damaged tissue. Which is * fascinating*

[@CleoHarperReturns]

@@krysab6125 Oops. I thought that's what we used maggots for.😅

[@bast713]

It's ok to not have a simple answer, but it is nice to see, hear, and read (in the comments) that there are pockets where people are more accepting and understanding. 💜

[@jessalbertine]

Also worth remembering that many indigenous cultures have had different concepts of gender for thousands of years. Two-spirit, third gender, etc. So when we say "the western gender binary", it's worth remembering just how small the "western world" was at the time before Europeans discovered an entire set of continents with millions of people where the culture was different.

[@TheWelshViking]

Yes! Thank you for raising the point!

[@pennobrien6735]

Thanks for this video, it makes me feel even safer with this channel and community than I did before 🏳️‍⚧️ I do primarily Nordic Bronze Age reenactment with the SCA and I’ve had a lot of fun and fulfilment mixing costume from ‘men’s’ and ‘women’s’ grave finds in my own garb in a way that feels natural to me. Because that era in prehistory is so sparse for evidence or records in regards to gender, I don’t have a lot of evidence to pull from but I like to imagine that I am doing proud someone in the past by reflecting their gender non conformity and transness in my own. (We have always been here) (Also anyone who thinks that the line between ‘biological males and females’ is easily definable has clearly never tried to sex a real human skeleton :P)

[@iokheaira]

Fr. ex. at the Cumwhitton viking cemetery, they found a necklace with beads and silver rings in a grave with male-associated goods. A podcast with one of the archaeologists (by the Red River Archaeology group) discussed how difficult it is to assign gender even if you have remains to test, which they didn't, and also that weapons in a grave don't necessarily mean warrior even in a male-assumed burial because they could be placed there as a status symbol by the family of the deceased to show off for the rest of the community, rather than just to serve the dead person in the afterlife. But back to those beads, we're also making assumptions on what's considered masculine/feminine and gender non-conforming based on our modern norms. The deceased could've been feminine-leaning in their presentation or it was perfectly fine for men to wear beads in their community, or they could've been even a woman with otherwise very masc grave goods! Anyway, it would definitely be worth it for trans and non-binary etc. people doing Viking age reenactment to look at actual grave finds, because there's a lot of inspiration to be found and assumptions to be broken! While people can be resistant at creating new social categories, they're surprisingly often willing to make exceptions to individual community members - there's a lot of documentary evidence from historical times of people who don't conform to gender norms or change their gender and others just go with it, ranging from vague tolerance at the edges of the community to full social acceptance. And that's not even counting the groups where nonconformity is more accepted/expected, like actors and entertainers or seiðr and shamanism, because it would be a disservice to pigeonhole people to those roles based on their gender presentation. (I don't want to disregard the evidence we have of a gender binary existing in Ye Olden Times in various forms, because the past wasn't an unspoilt paradise that we should yearn for. Still, it's equally harmful to pretend that there was nothing outside that binary or that gender issues are purely a modern invention, because that also gives a false view of the past and erases a large number of very real people who existed in that past.)

[@marxbruder]

I led a campaign to allow women to portray soldiers in my American Revolution group. The key argument was that a young fit woman in ranks is no less accurate to the 1770's British army than an old out of shape man would be. In that context, women have the advantage of no facial hair (a constant battle with male reenactors), and typically longer hair which is closer to the period style than the short cuts most men have. Also, it's a hobby. We play dress up for fun. Excluding people for race or gender is just wrong. As an added win, letting people participate regardless of gender gets people used to the idea of preferred pronouns! If you are portraying a soldier for the weekend, the correct pronouns are he/him, just to maintain the illusion.

[@marxbruder]

And in the context of the late 18th century, we have examples of gender non-conformity from the Chevalier d'Eon, Casimir Pulaski, and Hannah Snell.

[@TheWelshViking]

Superb work and thank you very much for doing what you’re doing to make the hobby a more inclusive and all-round better place!

[@kallandar13]

And we have hard evidence of that occurring in the US Civil War, making it not implausible that it occurred earlier as well.

[@AstheCrowTries]

Good on you! American Rev War reenactors tend to be cooler about bob-sing and transmasc people than some other eras, I've noticed. I remember being a teenager and seeing femme-looking folks dressed in 18th c. infantry uniforms and being really inspired (Monstrous Regiment moment).

[@shaeisgae8952]

Also, it was a revolution, idk of any specific evidence of that in the american Revolution bc I i dont know much about it in detail, but i woukd imagine there definitely were women fighting in that war, unless for whatever reason the american Revolutionaries had a strict policy and never deviated from it (which... It was a revolution so I doubt it they couldnt really afford to give up recruits)

[@thehistoricalnerd5017]

Thank you so much for posting this. I've hesitated to post about this online but I came out as trans a little over a year ago. At the time I had been doing American Civil War reenacting with the same group for 9 years, the second they found out that I had in their words made a new "lifestyle choice" they kicked me form the unit. It's nice to know that not everyone in reenacting is that heartless. But what also gets me is there is another woman who is in the unit and puts on the uniform and goes out on the field just the same as everyone else but nothing has ever been said about that. It's literally in the name reen"acting"! I could have still easily have been the "guy" they needed on the field. But I guess those 9 years together really meant nothing to them. Thanks again for the video and for listening to my rant.

[@joanaloneathome]

i'm so sorry you had to experience that! as you said yourself, if they really cared about you they wouldn't have kicked you from the group... that's really just very shitty behaviour!! i don't know your pain but maybe it was better this way, at least now you know their real faces... anyway that's no way to treat a person, even if there was no other woman in the unit there'd be absolutely no reason to dismiss someone from the group, especially after a decade-long companionship! the audacity of some people never fails to amaze me...

[@beagleissleeping5359]

Where I live, trying to explain to certain people that there's a difference between sex and gender is about as effective as trying to get them to stop arguing about whether it's called soda or pop...... At least Jimmy gets it.😊

[@gigglepantsiii9350]

Everyone complains that pants are hard to make, but they forget that dresses are also difficult to make. I hope that the second try goes smoother for you Jimmy.

[@AstheCrowTries]

Especially get the everything draping nicely!

[@lunamercurious3]

Thank you for this video! I’m non-binary and in the SCA and I LOVE how much allyship and queer membership there is. I love your videos and how inclusive they are while not going so far as to gloss over any facts about what we do and don’t know. And I likely wouldn’t have subscribed to your Patreon otherwise )I might have because even without that it’s still great content but definitely part of the motivation) which I recently did, because I finally can! Yay for steady employment. How much you promote the work of women, be they historians or KZbinrs was definitely a factor as well (and I found out about and bought Bernadette Banner’s book partly due to your recommendation). And while my garb is generally what is read as women’s garb (I made my garb while pregnant and breastfeeding, damn right that neckline is low) I love that it’s no big deal how people express their gender in my group and never has been. These are my people. Our current royalty here is very openly queer or staunch allies. Everyone Royal had something rainbow on. It’s a garb challenge here. It’s great!

[@lunamercurious3]

And furthermore you don’t do allyship in a cringey awkward virtue signaling way. And I super appreciate that. I hate the words “virtue signaling” because usually people are falsely accused but sadly not always and white men tend to be the worst offenders. It’s almost like just being empathetic and remembering everyone is human is mostly all you need to do.

[@qwertyTRiG]

I know more queer people through the SCA than I do from any explicitly queer events I go to.

[@TheWelshViking]

Hey, thank you so much for joining the Patreon and for taking the time to write such kind words! I really appreciate it, and you, and yay and hooray and woo cool reenactors!

[@samjones80]

Someone (possibly a high school teacher) once pointed out that you can tell what people have been getting up to by looking at what got banned, so it's interesting to know that there were particular times in which the gender binary was very strictly enforced. That enforcement might sadly be the evidence that trans and non-binary people were trying to be themselves, and somebody in a position of power took a dislike to it.

[@marenb186]

Yeah if there wasn't a significant number of people doing the thing that the authorities didn't like, why did they feel a need to outlaw it!

[@mikeymullins5305]

As a trans person and amatuer historian, my persective is that literally every single time period includes trans people bc trans people are simply a fact of life. We might not have specific evdience but i think we can reasonably assume for the patterns that we can see is that some people passed as the opposite gender their whole life, some for a period, some tried to but were found out so to say. Just as in the modern day, where people have any range of reactions to the the feeling that yhey thenselves are transgender, i think its reasonable to give thst same expansion to historocal people.

[@caspenbee]

It would be equally weird to assume there were no feminine female women in a given period. If there are gender rules, they WILL be broken, as well as followed. I do encourage hunting for specific examples in your period though! Every time I've looked, I've found someone who was remembered (hard to forget us weirdos!). And for everyonr who was remembered, we can assume there are more of us standing behind them.

[@mikeymullins5305]

@@caspenbee absolutely! I love doing trans research.

[@janetmackinnon3411]

I always suspected that you were a sensible person...and you've' proved it again.

[@TheWelshViking]

Only in very specific areas!

[@ladyliberty417]

In studying the civil war ( USA) there is more than one story about women dressing as men to go fight and to find their loved ones - I have to believe in other wars in other times similar things happened, why not? Great topic Jimmy- thanks🥰✌🏼

[@chrisball3778]

There are plenty of other examples from history, although there are far more from the Early Modern period than there are from the medieval era (although that might just be because there are far more written records as history progresses). One of my favourites is Hannah Snell, an 18th-century British woman who joined the army ostensibly to track down her errant husband, fought in battles, was wounded in action, also became a sailor and returned home to open a pub called The Female Warrior. There are Norse legends about cross-dressing warriors. Jimmy had a video a few years ago about whether there were any female Viking warriors (spoiler: there's some interesting possibilities but no clear evidence).

[@SuperFunkmachine]

The storeys of women joining the army/ navy to stay/ find with there lover are an endless mine of folk songs.

[@chrisball3778]

@@SuperFunkmachine She dressed herself in man's array and apparel she put on. Onto the field of battle she marched a man along. Sing ree and sing low, so fare thee well my dear... Like you say, a definite favourite folk song topic!

[@_Michiel_]

Astute video as always, Jimmy! Who am I to criticise anyone on their gender? All we do is reenacting. With emphasis on acting. We are *not* the person who we enact. We weren't born in the x-th century. We 'play'. However serious we do our research, it is still acting. So do we *really* know what to wear and how to wear it? No, we don't. We have descriptions and period images. Of a few people. But certainly not of everyone. So, listen to Jimmy. Be polite to each other, invite people to join and make them feel welcome. Be willing to learn from each other. Things will work out. End of lecture. 😊

[@lydianoack4552]

Once again, I am reminded of how lucky I am to have a reenactment group where 1) women fighting is historically accurate and 2) nobody gives a rat's posterior. It strikes me that the actual problem is not with history, but with very modern people being jerks.

[@chryasor9254]

Just pure curiosity, what era/place do you reenact? I can think of a couple where women warriors were known to be more present than others but would always love to hear of another

[@lydianoack4552]

@@chryasor9254 thanks for asking, we're a gladiator school. Which also has the effect of concentrating our efforts on the fighting to a very high degree, as this was why the group was originally founded and also what people come to see and organizers pay us for 😅, but we try to get a bit of historical substance behind it. We do mention that, at the time, it would have been strictly woman to woman and man to man, but we do also, in quiet and dignified way, rejoice when one of our girls beats one of the gym bros from the other ludi 😇

[@ladysoapmaker]

I'm a member of the SCA and I think people forget one of our tenets is "We create the medieval period as it should have been" So no plagues (not withstanding the most current one or the ubiquitous Pennsic Plague), no serfs, the rare peasant, etc. We are becoming a little bit more inclusive but we have to work at it. My youngest is trans and so far hasn't had an issue but then again he has his siblings looking out for him and most of our Barony, too. Much more accepting then the mundane world.

[@greghenrikson952]

This is a core difference between the SCAdians and living history groups that not everyone understands. The flexibility makes the SCA a better fit for what many folks want out of this stuff. Living history is the better place to drill deep into the details of how things would have been done, but that comes at a price. So the SCA scribes (love 'em) get to use modern inks and nibs, and I stick with goose feathers and home-made inks. Our living history group is also 95% commoner with only a few low-tier knights on top. In the SCA, though, you can get your titles.

[@lenamarie2071]

Wow, you hit the nail on the head with this one. I quit the Empire of Adria (USA) 15 years ago because they didn't support diversity. I really hope that reenactment organizations are becoming more inclusive so that those still participating don't go through what I did.

[@Neenerella333]

A viking podcast sponsored by "Nord" VPN gave me a dumb little giggle.

[@njordmannen]

Njord VPN 😂

[@TenleyAtwood]

Biology is really complex, so is archeology and sociology. Thank you for having this conversation and bringing awareness to the topic. The world wasn't monolithic then. We still had diversity and the human experience was and still is experienced on a spectrum. History, reenactment, archeology, education.... should be for everyone. Everyone should have access to it.

[@eivor5953]

"Especially YOU." Here I was, thinking I was safe having a childish snigger behind my monitor 😂

[@TheWelshViking]

Oh, I sees ya!

[@joshuachapman4280]

"you sex skeletons" Tumblr back in the Undertale days took that a bit far

[@stonedog5547]

I'm a Napoleonic Redcoat, we just say that soldiers in the C19th were male or could pass as such and as C21st re-enactors we don't care about whats inside the uniform. Our drummer loves putting on the gruffest butchest voice she can manage to reassure everyone that she is a boy.... Honest. Her wife wears red&pipeclay like the rest of us in the musket line.

[@gwenchadwick780]

depending on the location for the middle ages, and renaissance or even earlier many many cultures at that time had expressions outside of the gender binary. jews recognized 6 genders for a very long time. we have examples in India or Indonesia, even italy, there is the Femminiello. Native Americans have the term two spirit. trans people are not new. I can also say that the SCA also has a group specifically for trans people, to act as a support group.

[@thespaceshuttlechallenger7882]

I'm queer, and when I step into my living history personae, it turns out: I'm still queer. I'm just queer differently. I think about it differently, I express it differently, and because of that, most people don't even realize that my persona is queer. And yet, I continue to be queer, just as I continue to breath---despite the alleged impossibility of doing so in a corset! That's kind of the magic of experimental archeology though. It lets you be yourself, but in a different world, stripping away everything that "made you who you are" and leaving you just with "who you always have been." Sometimes that leaves you barely recognizable, proving that you did, in fact, manage to learn something. It's great. Trust the process.

[@Genesis3Chi]

Jimmy mentions the Sealed Knot and as a member of English Civil War Society (their sibling/cousin/rival depending who you ask) I fully concur that we are an army full of Bobs. But will also add that I know a good handful of fem presenting NB or trans women who attend in womens kit or mens as the fancy takes them. So we are here, we are accepted and loved, and you are more than welcome to come and play with us. Basically it comes down to what specific role do you want to play and who in history did that role belong to? Camp followers is a pretty generous role that allows anyone And if nothing feels right for your presentation still come along and just dont do the public facing bit. The best bit of reenacting is the wonderfully quirky people you share it with

[@nurmihusa7780]

As an American I’ve always found the UK expression “Bob’s your uncle” a little confusing. Now I have a whole Nother picture for it…

[@margaretkaraba8161]

@@nurmihusa7780 (digression from original topic) the complete phrase is "Fanny's your Aunt and Bob's your Uncle" (or vice versa). Means essentially - That's the facts/there it is/things will happen - context is king.

[@profoundprocrastinator]

I was told i wasnt allowed to join a reinactment soc in my area because i was a woman. At least the fighting side of it. Because 'women didnt fight' But i said, you know, its not really the 900s. I brought up examples, evidence and also that i was willing to bob. I was so infuriated for ages after. It didnt matter that i was a field archaologist that had experience in reinactment, i was just a woman. I felt like shit. The best part, was that it was a woman telling me all this.

[@ah5721]

you should have told them to sod off ! esp as an archaologist women fought - just because there isnt many female grave goods with weapons doesnt mean they didnt fight !

[@TheHoveHeretic]

TBH, I suspect you had a lucky escape.

[@GeorgRv22]

And she was right

[@bluebadger8811]

I would like to remind all that a viking at standford Bridge was found with a boars tusk cited between their legs. It was assumed that this was to replace a damaged member possibly from the battle, but you never know, could of been living as male. They were in the ground, they had a prosthetic bit. They were deemed to need it.

[@sophiejones3554]

While very amusing, I'd be skeptical of the assumption that this was a prosthetic rather than a trophy. It certainly would *symbolize* their uh... masculine prowress, but it probably was not used as a replacement for the relevant body part. While people definitely did pad their codpieces, and some men used it as a secure pocket, prosthetic penises were not a thing. Placing phallic objects over the pubic region or standing upright between the legs was certainly very common during funeral rites, because of the value placed on male fertility.

[@njordmannen]

More people interested in the viking age & reenactment in general and it's combat and crafts, is only a net positive thing!! Nerds love nerds that do crafts. ❤ And about trousers on women, do they really know how cold it can get up here in Norway? My guess is a big fat "Nei".

[@bluebadger8811]

We also know of a man living as a woman who was in trouble in London in the 12th century for 'working the night' in the wrong area of London and was only in trouble for the last bit, as it should be.

[@chrysanthemum8233]

Based on very limited evidence and lots of vibes, I suspect that gendered behavior/dress in premodern societies was policed a lot more strictly for upperclass people than working class/poor people. If your day is churning butter or digging turnips, the neighbors will think you're a weirdo for being a male-bodied person in women's clothes or a female-bodied person in men's clothes, but eventually your personal weirdness becomes a background feature of village life and stops being interesting. But if you're a member of the nobility, you'd face enormous family & social pressure to conform, because inheritance (of money and position) and who you marry both have major consequences for your entire extended family plus all the people the head of your family is lord of, etc.

[@ladysoapmaker]

heck, if you were on a farm at harvesting time, skirts get in the way of scythes. You want to wear pants/hose or hike up those skirts really high.

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

@@ladysoapmaker There are old drawings and paintings of them doing just that!

[@SAOS451316]

Much of the problem is that until recently archaeologists have been a certain type of man that wasn't keen on honest interpretation of history when it didn't align with their beliefs. There's lost evidence and evidence that needs revisiting. By all accounts gender has been fluid at least since the stone ages. Se x isn't static either and humans have had a fuzzy bimodal distribution since humans were fish. The oldest person to sign their name was Enheduanna who was most likely a transgender woman since that was the deal with Inanna's priesthood (and the temple guards were trans men). Vikings definitely had Queer people, enough to have slurs and gods breaking gender boundaries. Look at how many eunuchs were in imperial China at a given time and then find that many cis men who would castrate themselves for political power; surely at least some had some gender stuff happening. It's a normal human variation and you'll find it everywhere. Because there's no evidence to the contrary we can assume any re-enacted period would have nonbinary people. Since we're usually talking about centuries ago in reenactment the modern gender-first approach to outfit construction is not the best approach we can use. Class has been much more important historically. Suppose we have an early medieval peasant. They'll be wearing working clothes and so their form is dictated by the job. If you're a single mom the fields still need plowing and long dresses are not helpful for that purpose. Our nonbinary farmer is probably going to be wearing pants/hose/etc. They also have work to do inside and will thus also have an apron. If they like their hair long a wimple will keep it clean and out of the way. They'll need a belt and it can hold various tools needed for the day's work. Accessorize to taste.

[@kerriemckinstry-jett8625]

"We don't use leeches nearly as much as we used to". 🤣👍 Thank you for giving people a hilarious & great way to describe scientific & historical progress!

[@Rutanachan]

Technically, shouldn't it be very obvious that vikings and other norse folks had non-binary/gender-fluid expressions? I mean... they didn't thought up Loki for no reason, right? And even Thor crossdressed once.

[@azteclady]

So much of the items assocaited with gender expression degrades quickly (clothing, for example), which makes it harder for archaeologists to know exactly what would have been going on in any particular burial.

[@thebratqueen]

"You're better than that." - but the 'boning a skeleton' joke is RIGHT THERE! Sigh, *fine*. Spoilsport.

[@alexanderaugustus]

This is a very interesting topic. I've encountered some interesting stuff in my years of research. Medieval knights who dressed up in dresses, like Ulrich von Liechtenstein, a famous 13th century knight that toured Central Europe dressed as Venus during jousts. In the 17th century there are some instances of dead soldiers being found to have been women dressed in male clothes. And of course one of my favourites; Philippe, the brother of Louis XIV, who shocked the court by attending a feast in a very fancy female dress, while at that time male dress was at the height of flamboyance. Of course if you were a prince you could get away with a lot more than if you were from a farming community and you decided that your assigned gender role was not for you.

[@alexanderaugustus]

And also some periods had men wearing very long garments, especially in the 11th to 15th century, you can get away with wearing ankle length tunics or robes. The other way around, women wearing very short tunics, or doublets, not so much, but there are of course again accounts of women in male clothing, the most famous of all being Joan of Arc. It was frowned upon, but it's something you could do. so if you're nonbinary and you're going for an androgynous look, there are definitely possibilities. I do happen to know a bunch of trans people in several periods of reenactment and luckily they are mostly welcomed and treated friendly, as far as I know.

[@AstheCrowTries]

I've done feminine, masculine ('bobbing'), and more fluid presentation and really... y'gotta gauge your setting. I've done an Elizabethan drag king character (trunkhose and a codpiece helped me find myself, dear lord) and more fluid characters at Renaissance Festivals that go over well, because a lot more of the modern and fantasy washes in. When it comes to the stricter reenactments though, there's an element of 'can you present the evidence of yourself' to the public, who're mainly there to see guns, swords, silly hats, and butter churning (but not always). So I compromise. I may present masculine and bring up examples of gender roles blurring in period, but I won't portray a non-binary person unless it's a special case like The Universal Publick Friend. I'm going through this right now getting ready to play Friar Tuck at a medieval faire. I won't have time to show the audience how a person could be non-binary in 12th century English religious life, so I have to decide: Am I straight up playing a cis man (and I glue hair on my face)? Am I Bob-sing and the audience and my castmates make an agreement to do some comedy of error hijinks? Or do we make another silent agreement and do I play a trans man (which was totally a thing)?

[@lightheidi9009]

Thank you Jimmy. You explained a topic that comes up a lot. Your comment section is just as good as your video. In our SCA kingdom there are many that cross dress. I have found if there is effort in dressing for an event most of us are are supportive. My group that I hang out with really don’t care who is wearing what. Just be a nice person who wants to participate.

[@helenahsson1697]

I've always thought that since most regular people lived in smaller settlements and not saw much "new" people it was probably like what living rural now is. If you're different you're not really catagorized people are more like "oh that's just Jeff, he likes to wear dresses" and then they just go on with what they were doing. As soon as they've gotten used to something they don't really care. If it's someone fron outside the village though, it doesn't really matter if they're straight, they have to prove their worth first. I'm one of those who have moved into a tiny village but since I also come from one it's way easier to understand it. Where I come from we had an older guy who wore his late mother's dresses, he never wore dresses before she passed away and he was known to never spend any money if he could help it so the gossip was that he wore them to avoid having to buy more clothes for himself. But you know, he could've been trans for all I know.

[@fariesz6786]

i'd say that is also somewhat oversimplifying things and painting them somewhat rosy. there are a lot or factors that filter into people's behaviour.. if you are a high burden on your community and people can single you out for something, they will, same if someone has beef with you, or if people are just bored. conversely, if people perceive you as an asset or a person of respect, you can get away with being different or even with not so innoccuous things. double conversely if your position threatens someone else's it can again be a reason to discriminate. i do suppose small self-sufficient communities may have more often had the need to keep it together bc one fewer person might be one person too few. but it depends on a lot of highly individual factors, like the personalities of the individual people in the village for example, family histories, personal grievances etc.

[@MsHedgehog]

@@fariesz6786 I agree and disagree. I think you are talking about communities of different sizes and/or remoteness. I grew up in one such small rural community, the acceptance is there but it is more along the lines of: 'huh that Jeff sure is strange, but he is one of us'. The 'one of us' part generally takes precedence over the 'strange behaviour' but the person is still considered strange. Perhaps a way to describe it is that the person is lower in the social hierarchy but is not considered other/an outsider. And it only seem to happen in truly rural villages where it is still geniunely difficult to access most public service. It takes about an hour for emergency services to reach the area where I grew up, even on a good day. And the closest bus stop to that village is ca 3.5 km/2 miles away. People still dislike one another over small stuff, but the social contract of 'being polite' and helping each other out is prioritized. The larger villages and the small towns around the area however; they fit you description to the letter.

[@dogmaticpyrrhonist543]

I love that it's calling Bobbing up.

[@bunhelsingslegacy3549]

Always love a good Blackadder reference!!

[@dogmaticpyrrhonist543]

@@bunhelsingslegacy3549 at least it has nothing to do with turnips

[@SciFiFemale]

As my name is Bobbie, I have been Bob ever since this came out, and I love it.

[@dogmaticpyrrhonist543]

@@SciFiFemale I hope everyone says it just like Rowan. "Bob."

[@bunhelsingslegacy3549]

@@dogmaticpyrrhonist543 🤣😂🤣😂 S0d off, Baldrick...

[@CrimsonVipera]

Outro music plays. My house-share's very English girlfriend: Why are you listening to soviet toons? Me: It's Welsh actually. 😂

[@Trassel242]

I mean, I wear glasses and I rely on modern medicine, so I’m already extremely anachronistic for a Viking/Norseman. It’s so stupid to try and project current day moral values onto historical eras. The way people currently think about gender roles etc is not some kind of immutable natural law, it’s changing and evolving just as culture in general does. Just going back 120-odd years, you’d likely have a pretty big movement against women wearing trousers, and a woman in a pair of jeans would be seen as “trying to dress up as a man” whereas these days, we don’t bat an eye at that particular thing. Also, what we’re using as evidence is often grave goods, which aren’t really the same thing as what people wore in their daily lives. But that’s a rabbit hole I don’t like pondering too much or I become sad.

[@nurmihusa7780]

It is telling that more people get bent out of shape when a “man” dresses as a “woman” as opposed to the other way around. Homophobia and transphobia are subsets of misogyny.

[@krysab6125]

Ooh, don't bring up glasses - a hot topic (and a painful one) in much of the UK Viking Reenactment scene at the mo 😬

[@lutzderlurch7877]

In reenacting, there are two aspects, that are potentially at odds with each other and there is no true 'correct' answer. 1st in reenacting we strive for historical correctness in portraying a sliver of humanity's past. For most of human history, Gender, race, sex, etc. were all axis along which heavy discrimination happened. Human history, whilst fascinating, was brutal and horrible for a vast amount of people who had to live through it. 2nd Reenacting is a past time and a passion for those doing it. We today either live in, or strive for, a world, where your race, sex etc. should no longer dictate what you can or cannot do. If we deny certain groups of people the ability to portray the historic persona they want to, that could count as racism etc. The issue is, these two aspects are not always compatible. For example, just as a thought experiment, imagine a queer black woman, who loves history and (for whatever reason) wants to portray an SS-Officer. The 1st concept says, she shouldn't do it. The 2nd says, she has every right to.

[@danielcrafter9349]

That's... no, sorry. I think you're trying to make those 2 things distinct, but I don't think it's that simple In the case of Reenactment, I would say the issue "should" be PORTRAYAL, not anything elss

[@lutzderlurch7877]

@@danielcrafter9349 You can explain a lot of things, if you get into a conversation with someone. But as reality goes, you typically can engage with only so many people in a detailed discussion and explanation, whereas a far greater number of people only 'interact' with the portrayal by walking past and seeing things. In general, what people see tends to stick to their brains and memory far better, than what they read or heard. So I don't think the 'portrayal' card solves this conflict. To paraphrase you, it's not that simple. I think acknowledging an integral conflict of different aspects of the hobby is not about simplicity, but rather accepting the complexity of reality, which at this particular intersection, will always generate complications and room for various opinions and ideas that can't individually be demonstrated to be true or correct.

[@AstheCrowTries]

Also early 16th century short underdoublets / waistcoats (Tudor Tailor, page 89) can be easily modded with stiffening to be binders, for anyone who needs to know.

[@kikidevine694]

And some of the later doublets have so much chest padding that you wouldn't need a binder!

[@nicelliott1175]

That's good to know, thank you!

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

I never considered that before, but my era is usually late 19th c, so I wouldn't have. Thanks for the tip!

[@Hrafnasil]

A friend of mine wrote a paper in Uni (gender studies) about this and she believes that there were men and women during the Norse period who wore the "opposite genders" clothing but that they probably had assumed the other gender identity to do so, that it also was possible that they did this for a period of their lives (like shield maidens) and then went back and assumed their biological gender and gender identity and lived out the rest of their lives. That no one saw it as much of an issue as long as you strictly adhered to the gendered norm you presented as. Now I need to find the link to her paper.

[@caspenbee]

If you look at the early saints, many of them are gender non-conforming (Thecla being my current favorite). Monks and nuns are particularly attractive to me as characters because they did not get involved in family units as much, which were a site of much gendered work. You have to dig a bit, but gender non-conforming stories pop up all the way back through the medieval era. Sometimes it was celebrated. Sometimes it involved violence. But we did it nonetheless. So I don't think it's any more inaccurate to be non-conforming. You just really have to do your research about *how* people may have bent the rules in the past, as Jimmy says - and not assume that modern gender roles apply! Also...people being people, there were probably always people who were totally chill with their gender-nonconforming friends, and also violent bigots, thoughout history. So yknow. Do you want to re-enact a chill person or an ass?

[@lorisewsstuff1607]

I was in the SCA a long time ago. We had what we called The Period Police - people that went around telling everyone else how they were "not doing it right." The honest truth is we, as modern people, cannot "do it right." We are REENACTORS. We are modern people trying to demonstrate what we believe people in earlier times did. I have never seen myself as a representation of what a past person was like. My thing has always been yarn, fabric and clothing production. I put on a costume and show other people how I believe these garments were made. I have also given lectures on the same subject while dressed in modern clothes. I'm not an embodiment of historical people. I'm a modern researcher and teacher. When I hear someone tell another, " you're not doing it right," my first inclination is to tell them they're not either. We're all modern people doing our own thing. Let's just all be who we are.

[@ammobunny]

Telling someone "That's not period!" is not period.

[@darnokthemage170]

Problem with this is, That if it is for education (not simply for fun, as the SCA usually is), Not trying to do source-backed reenactment will often lead to the public being mislead. Wearing a bright purple cotton apron skirt is not something that is at all representative of the Viking age. Neither are horned helmets or ikea rugs thrown over your shoulders. But, that is ofc if you are doing educational stuff.

[@lorisewsstuff1607]

@darnokthemage170 then we are all misleading the public. "Your turtle brooches aren't domed enough." My response. "Your fabric isn't hand spun and handwoven." Has the Period Police seen a genuine Viking Age turtle brooch? Doubtful. I know modern machine woven fabric does not look like handwoven. Our ancestors' appearances were a direct result of the lives they led. The only way we can authentically replicate that is to live as they did and devote our lives to growing flax, spinning, weaving, dye and mordent making, smithing, etc to get authentic materials. We wouldn't have time for modern jobs. Just as our ancestors worked sun up to sun down to have what they had, we would be doing the same in a vain attempt to look the part. There's very few people in this world willing to go to those lengths. We are modern individuals when it's all said and done. We demonstrate the parts we are good at and strive to get those things accurate. But we can't do it all and should not expect to. We are who we are, and we are modern.

[@tastyhaze2058]

Thanks for continuing to provide resources like this for queer history enthusiasts. There really aren't many places like this channel.

[@rosemarymorgan336]

In the American Civil War groups it can be hard to be a woman dressed as a man, one of my friends who's done this has had to fight her way for years. Also, the political leanings tend to be more conservative.

[@greghenrikson952]

It's not just sexism or general conservatism. Those groups have been propping up the lost cause ideology for ages.

[@yensid4294]

So they just want to erase certain women who posed as men to fight in the war? They weren't discovered until wounded or killed. One woman even collected a soldiers pension in her later years. True, it was unusual but it still happened.

[@rosemarymorgan336]

@greghenrikson952 yeah that is a huge problem too.

[@nicelliott1175]

I've seen this on so many groups' websites, and it's bonkers. I'm trans-masc non-binary, can "pass" as male with minimal effort, and am the height, weight, and age of the average Union soldier. Somehow, that's less "historically accurate" than a bunch of men in their sixties because some regiments would supposedly use the "pull down their pants" test. Forget about all the evidence of women who successfully posed as men in order to fight (also, I'm NOT a woman, so...) Hey, it's a convenient early warning system that keeps me from investing time and money into something where I am not welcome!

[@NerfHerder909]

@@yensid4294 It's variable. There are a number of groups/events who are willing to have women portray male impressions, either because a disguised woman (or, in a couple of cases, what we would now call a trans man) was documented to have been in that regiment/battle, or just as a general thing because we do have documented evidence of this happening, and if a woman was successful, there would be no evidence of her on the rolls. There are other groups who seem to delight in barring women and/or treating badly women/the units that allow women in soldier impressions when they encounter those units at larger events. My experience has been that women in the ranks are becoming more accepted, particularly those with very good/well-researched impressions, and it would be unusual to find no groups in a geographical area that allow it, but there are definitely groups that use a bar on women as shorthand for their "authenticity." At least one has been hired by the National Park Service for official events, so that's just great. Civil War reenacting specifically has some really amazing people in the hobby and some real nutjobs. The contrast is particularly noticeable there, I don't know why that is. Probably people using the conflict as a proxy for their modern political views.

[@Ms.ONeill001]

I believe Margaret Hughes was the first credited female actress in the UK, around 1630. Even the majority of actors were men dressed as females for their roles. Before and after that. They didn't seem to care then, everyone loved the theatre. It's only a modern thing anyone actually cares more about the Genders of actors than the content of the play/reenactment. It's been a thing for a long time.

[@ThatSpoonieTransGuy]

Yess, just because language has changed and there was evidence for discrimination (and thanks for pointing out that still exists), doesn't mean there would be no people we would consider queer now or didn't fit the norms then. It's just a little easier to find like minded (and not so like minded) people now.

[@dominichutchinson2478]

I've been in viking reenactment for about 2 years and my observation is that my Queen and her daughter are better fighters in our society than the men so that says a lot to me

[@skiingowl]

I wasn't laughing until you told me not to. :p (molecular biologist here)

[@sarahr8311]

Same! I didn't even think of it as being funny until he said something, and then I couldn't stop giggling.

[@tianikane3312]

One thing that throws us about re-enactments is that we don't see so much re-enactment of Jesus and his disciples. Is that because they wear dresses and hang around in groups of men???? Just asking....

[@GooberFace32]

Thanks for shouting out Clan Blue Feather!!! They were the best group within the SCA back 25 years ago!

[@threadsandpurrs]

They are still a great group from what I've seen and a lot of fun to hang out with.

[@Chifaire]

I loved what you said about sexing skeletons, not gendering them. There's plenty of evidence being lifted out of the ground, of male skeletons with typically female belongings, as well as the other way around. The whole transphobic oink oink mentality of today, "in a thousand years when you're dug up they'll know you're a man and not a woman," is just bizarre to me. If archeologists of today can dig up a female skeleton buried with all weapons and no female presenting grave goods, and say "this person might have been viewed as a different gender from their assigned sex," then people in a thousand years will definitely be able to wrap their minds around the fact that Female skeleton 167A was buried under a grave marker that reads John.

[@nicelliott1175]

Thank you, Jimmy, for another fantastic video! I've had some rather unpleasant experiences with reenactment groups in the past few years, but this video has inspired me to start looking again. IMHO, reenactment is for anybody who is interested, and folks should be allowed to portray the historical role that they feel most comfortable in. Sometimes, typically in public-facing educational settings, there may be areas where balancing gender expression and historical accuracy is more difficult, but it is absolutely possible. I worked in living history for many years and was one of a few trans and/or non-binary folks who worked at the site. We covered time periods between the 1860s and the 1930s, and our main townsite was about 1910, a time and place where gender roles were quite strict. Even in that setting, there were very few issues with costuming folks based on the gender they identified as, and I think one or two enby or gender fluid staff were issued both "men's" and "women's" costumes and could choose which one to wear on any given day. The size range of the uniforms available for certain sites were far more restrictive than most things gender! If the largest living history site in the country can figure it out for paid educational staff, surely hobbyist reenactors can, too. I grew up in Viking-age reenactment, and while I don't know of any trans, non-binary, or gender-diverse members (at the time, so between 10 and 20 years ago), many of the women wore "male" kit and took part in the fighting aspects. Nobody cared, or if someone had a problem with it, they could learn to deal with it or leave the group. Quite a few of the women also had ladies' kit that they wore in camp and would demonstrate things like tablet weaving, as everyone had at least one craft or trade that they practiced during non-fight shows. The same was true for several other eras that folks in the society reenacted. Acceptance of women dressing in men's clothing and filling historically male roles was completely normal to me, but I was utterly appaled by what I found when I was looking for other reenactment groups and opportunities for myself. For context, I live in western Canada and am interested in reenacting more local history, which, for non-Indigenous folks, didn't really start until the mid-19th century. Lots of the comparatively local reenactment groups are at least partially American, and there is a lot of crossover with Civil War reenactment. I was appalled to discover the rules many Civil War groups have about only men being allowed to portray men. I am trans-masc non-binary, pass as male in my everyday life with little effort, and am the height, weight, and age of the average Union soldier. And yet... I would not be allowed to portray a soldier based on what is (or isn't) in my pants, while a load of fat old men who do not accurately represent typical soldiers of the time are allowed to do so. I don't have any issue with older folks in reenactment, even if it's not technically "accurate," because that would be absurd and discriminatory and severely detrimental to the hobby. Yet somehow, the "yank down their pants" test is a requirement, often the only one. To anyone who made it to the end of this rant: thank you for reading, and I hope you find a group where you can both enjoy reenactment and be comfortable and accepted as yourself!

[@Pheonixhst]

Thank you for making such a respectful video about this topic! I feel like sometimes (as a person outside the gender binary) I feel like when history creators talk about gender in history, it can come off as their are doing just the bare minimum (if even that). But I think because of your used of sources and encouraging language, you did a really great job on this topic. As well as helping to convince me, to consider re-enactments in the future! Again thank you! :D🏳‍⚧🏳‍🌈

[@miranda731]

Re-enactor here, but in Australia, not the UK, although I'm somewhat familiar with the scene there. If I recall correctly, English Heritage (the employer of many, many societies) used to have guidelines which stipulated what people of a given sex could and couldn't do. In particular, women could be in military units reenacting battles as long as they were fully cross-dressing and looked like men from a distance. In living history environments such as historic houses and settings where there was interacting with the public, it was expected that interpreters would stick to their assigned gender. All in the name of authenticity. Do you know if those guidelines are still in place? I have a copy, but it's quite old.

[@suzz1776]

This got me super curious on how the vikings would have treated women with pcos. Cuz some of those women can grow full thick beards. I wonder if they would have been thought of as magical or closer to the gods because they have both traits, or would they have been outcasted, or would nobody have cared.... I so wish we could time travel and find out.

[@obsidianjane4413]

Sadly, they were usually outcasts by most pre-scientific societies, as the physical symptoms would have been seen as unhealthy/unclean/unattractive to the uneducated. If they were lucky they would be sheltered by their families, and would have had to find merger existences.

[@jasminv8653]

​@@obsidianjane4413 i mean, we know for sure that both ancient greece and almost all of historical iran and persia have loved women with a lot of hair, so.

[@jasminv8653]

​@@obsidianjane4413 i mean, we know for sure that both ancient greece and almost all of historical iran and persia have loved women with a lot of hair, so.

[@robintheparttimesewer6798]

Honestly why is there so much fuss about this. It doesn't hurt anyone for people to express themselves as they want. It's from what I understand supposed to be a fun hobby so have fun!

[@lilykatmoon4508]

As a non binary individual, I really appreciate you covering this topic with compassion and acceptance. If only everyone had that attitude. Wonderful content as usual!

[@jodieg6318]

This is a subject that is rather close to me, being a female reenactor as well as fighter therein, it can get dicey on both ends of the spectrum from those who think that gender and gender roles were set in stone and were just as inflexible to those that think certain areas of history were a girlboss utopia. But as it's been said before, to where it should certainly be on a t-shirt by now, It's Nuance! Were there specific gender roles at any given time and place in history? Absolutely. Were they different amoung cultures? Absolutely. Were there exceptions to the established norm? Absolutely. So do some research, just remeber that a fair chunk is going to be "we don't really know", but above all, have fun and don't be a kindling limb.

[@snorribjorn5074]

Well done! Thank you for addressing a potentially difficult topic with care and respect.

[@samwhyatt8685]

I am the Captain of a Mediaeval Reenactment group. We have a biologically female member who portrays a male character: care I, not a jot. As long as their kit is correct, they can present however they choose. There is one event that gets very twitchy about ladies in dresses on the archers line, not because they're ladies, but because a dress on an archery line is REALLY impractical 😉

[@Spagettigeist]

Good thing I'm not into reenactment but into cosplay. No one (or almost no one) cares about gender here and crossplay is actually very common. Still it's nice to know how that stuff gets handled in other groups and that there's a push for inclusivity. As an enby person I very much appreciate it.

[@Irridia]

Cause nobody in history ever cross-dressed and there were never folk songs, stories, or plays that addressed that subject... 🙄

[@Irridia]

Oh or mythology!

[@geekcollage]

***cough*** Thor ***cough***. 😂

[@kerriemckinstry-jett8625]

​@@geekcollage *cough* Loki *cough* 🤣

[@lunarose9]

Meanwhile I left my vike group because it wasn’t a safe place for my gf to transition.

[@TheWelshViking]

Ah, that’s so rubbish. I’m really sorry to hear you both experienced that :( I hope you find a nice group soon :)

[@aurevoiralex]

Jimmy, I particularly enjoy your "windswept and interesting" new look! must have been a blustery day ☺

[@TheWelshViking]

I got a haircut and my bike fixed so now I have a quiff :3

[@aurevoiralex]

@@TheWelshViking it's quiffing! 👍

[@Pippis78]

From Finnish iron age (viking era) there is a find of an intersex person / male with ambiguous anatomy, who dressed as a woman (maybe with some objects typical to men?) and seemed to be very highly regarded in their community. I've forgotten the details, but truly recommend checking out that. I think the find(s) were published in english. People who physically don't fit in the binary and people who break the binary rules have ALWAYS existed. As Jimmy here said, how other people reacted to them has probably varied greatly. How to dress up? For me it depends on the occasion. A hang around with friends I'm likely to throw on a men's tunic and pants, but when there is audience I'd be likely to dress more conservatively and according to my sex. But I never dress up very fancy, so the difference to the male gear isn't all that big. anyways Depends on the style and era, but a dress can just be a long tunic. Many women also easily blend with the men when wearing the men's clothes. They look like younger or maybe rounder/softer men. For some serious reenactments I know people have worn fake beards and moustaches. Actually the real vikings probably presented a lot more feminine judged by today's standards, than how they are presented nowadays. The men absolutely liked to wear nice bright colours, jewellery and beautifully decorated clothes. They liked to stay clean and groomed their beards and hair. At that age those things weren't seen as feminine. Men looking gloomy and dark and dull is a relatively recent development in fashion history. So it will actually be absolutely authentic to portray a "feminine" man, if it's by pretty colours and beautiful accessories. Normal then - "feminine" today. Also... So what if someone is pretending/"pretending" to be a person of the opposite sex? They ALL are pretending to be mighty warriors (or what ever) from a 1000 years back 😂

[@dis3545]

The article you're thinking off is titled ''A Woman with a Sword? - Weapon Grave at Suontaka Vesitorninmäki, Finland'' and was published in the European Journal of archaeology, Vol 25, issue 1. The individual likely had Klinefelter syndrome (xxy chromosome) and was buried with a sword, a hitless blade, knife, 2 oval broaches, a penannular broach and a sickle. Swords are traditionally masculine and the oval broaches (and jewellery in general) are seen as feminine. Klinefelter is found in males, but showcases with really low testosterone, lack of body hair, breast tissue, low libio, wider hips, unusual height and their voices don't drop as the would.

[@jwolfe1209]

Not a beardy person, but in that last scenario I would be so tempted to gasp dramatically, put my hands to my beard and theatrically exclaim "By the gods, the potion worked!!!"😅

[@mxheathcliff]

I always find it very sus when people want to bring their racism/sexism/homophobia/transphobia to re-enactment or other live-action situations. If the rules basically enforce that, you have to ask yourself who it's even for.

[@selkie76]

7:43 Well, Nord may help you hide your online presence, but I know exactly where the lane is that you filmed that advert - I used it frequently when I lived on that side of town ^_~

[@anieth]

As long as you're not talking about gender in Welsh! Those mutations get me every time! :D

[@TheWelshViking]

It comes with practice sort of kinda

[@lenabreijer1311]

In French I go with the flow of what feels right, after all there is a 50/50 chance I am right.

[@anieth]

@@lenabreijer1311LOL!! Spanish is the easy one!

[@patg2109]

Great topic and thoughtful insight. I did upon a furtive review of your bookshelf process a title as "London's Lost Wells" and thought "well, thats quite a niche subject."

[@TheWelshViking]

Ah! London’s Lost Jewels! Not quite as niche, and probably not even as interesting as your new idea for what sounds like a superb book!

[@euansmith3699]

Jimmy walking down the street, doing his ad-read, has really strong Alan Bates in "Women in Love" vibes. Amazing how strong that look is; nice Edwardian Tweeds and a stretch of brick wall. Thanks for yet another great video. 👍

[@jaded9087]

When i was in the NVG and Ravens guard both did 9th to 12 century reenactment way back in the 90s and 2000s as a woman i still wore a spectical helm, trues and a tunic under my gaberson and mail if i was fighting and not much hooplah was made about gender , you where fighting, you wore the garb of someone fighting but my feasting gear was a 9th century norman silk dress and wool cloak with all the bits and bobs of a quite well to do woman of the period. It was just that women where not excluded from battle in either garrison and you had to kit up. Safety standards of the live metal weapons club's , not gender PC bending. Just equality as i had to give as good as i got to have a place on the battlefield at training and events. No one could tell i was a women in my fighting kit anyways.

[@kajsan760]

Thank you for addressing these kind of subjects! You might be the best thing on KZbin.

[@I_Willenbrock_I]

I am a beginner in the medieval reenactment hobby. My period of interest is 12th century Germany. I do my best to portrait a lower nobleman - therefore, I wear a cotte, who reaches down to the calfs. It would be period correct to wear a bliaut - basically a women's dress. What keeps me from ding it? It looks awful with my 21th century belly. That being said. When I started going to medieval faires and events, I decided to not he an arse about it. I'm not a historian, I'm not an archaeologist and I can only do so much research. So I don't tell people what they are "not doing right enough". I'm open to criticism, if it's based on facts we actually know and if it's done in a proper. Yes and that includes vikings with furs on their shoulders. I let them have fun and if they don't run around telling other people that they are doing it right, who am I to criticise them? Gender and gender expression is something we dont know a whole lot about, it's a hobby and therefore, we should be a cool with people. It's a damn hobby. We all like to dress up in funny, old clothes and stink for a few days. We should share sewing patterns and not blow a gasket, because the lit of a pot is early 15th century, instead of late 14th.

[@anieth]

What I hate about Martin is that his women don't do much. People don't realize that most of these battles were a small group of men. Most people made stuff and worked from dawn to dusk. I like to think of these very old battles as football games. But my research on pastoral peoples shows that many of the gender biases that we know don't apply. The Vikings were a much more modern people, however, anyone who grew up on the frontier knows that women had to be really independent and capable. I like to compare the old American West with the Viking world, in that women had to know to how shoot and protect the farm and the stock, but it wasn't what they usually did. But I wanted to show people working in my books and action with way less flying heads. :D I was thinking about you this morning while studying gender mutations in Welsh, now that is a mess, almost as bad as Latin or Icelandic! :D

[@gaslightstudiosrebooted3432]

It's a tricky subject within reenactment groups. And it shouldn't be, because the premier rule of life is the golden rule.

[@jodieg6318]

Don't be a ontyndan-lim, kindling limb, as I like to put it. :)

[@HenryTinker]

I read 'Ancient Bodies, Ancient Lives: Sex, Gender and Archaeology' by Rosemary Joyce recently, which was really interesting. It's based on her work in Honduras, but I think what she says is relevant to this topic. It's about questioning and making yourself aware of your own bias when conducting research, such as the assumption that there are only two genders, because that is what is normative in western society. We know that Christian missionaries worked very hard to make people conform to a binary system of gender. So, if reenactors are getting stuck on what trans or nonbinary presentations might look like, it could be useful to learn about other gender roles that have existed historically, and those that continue to exist in other cultures. Yes, it might require more research, thought and creativity to reconstruct what a nonbinary presentation might look like for the era you are portraying. But that's interesting research to do, and when you are doing the re-enactment, the way you choose to look opens up discussions that can be had with the public about gender presentation in the time period more broadly. CW: Slavery Eunuchs are an example of a gender variant role which had specific cultural functions and significance in the Viking age. I don't know if eunuchs were present in Viking societies, but there is evidence that Viking slave traders were enslaving young monks and selling them to become eunuchs in the Eastern Roman Empire. So, Vikings played an active part in the creation of this third gender role in their time period. What they thought of the role, who knows? Probably pretty varied opinions, because people in the past weren't a monolith. What's important is that it shows that some Vikings would have had an understanding of what eunuchs were, as they were choosing specific enslaved people for this market.

[@Donovaneagle2098]

A great reference for a non-binary/genderfluid Viking Age historical reenactment kit may be Hervore, the historical inspiration for Eowyn from Lord of the Rings, who crossdressed and assumed both masculine and feminine roles and pronouns in her story. Her granddaughter was also the commander of a fort and fought in battles, according to the Sagas.

[@longgonelocust2333]

Hervor was a Shieldmaiden: a woman warrior filling a traditional masculine role. She took on masculine traits in her myths because those were the only acceptable traits for someone in filling the role of a prestigious war leader.

[@longgonelocust2333]

All this is to say, that playing the role of Hervor is just playing a woman in a masculine role, so I don't really see the point?

[@Donovaneagle2098]

@@longgonelocust2333 because Hervore's traits weren't just ones she assumed in order to be a war leader as you say. She always loved masculine activities from a young age, and was better than many men at them. She also assumed a man's name, Hervadr, while leading her group of Vikings. Many scholars see her story as an interesting study on crossing the gender binary for the old Norse.

[@mewho8057]

@@longgonelocust2333 The point is that there are historical examples of people who did not conform to the role that seems to be dictated by their sex in their time, so a modern person who similarly does not conform to the modern gender roles could find inspiration there. And that's good.