Why Clone Troopers Became Less Effective With Each Generation

Kaminoan Prime Minister Lama Su has a conversation with Jedi General Shaak Ti very early on in the clone wars, the PM is concerned that with the death of Jango Fett, each succesive generation of clones will experience a drop off in quality. Today we take a look at whether this theory rings true or not.
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[@MultiRokusho]

I’m surprised the kaminoans didn’t come up with a way to undo the doubles aging process. Just get em to what age you want and dial the speed back to normal.

[@nashzahm]

I think once they get to an adult age it would be very hard to stop, in the embryonic stage they could do it but that would be useless.

[@SocalCoyote]

Think of it like molding clay. You can mold clay however you want when it is wet, but not when it hardens. You can alter a clone’s DNA as an embryo, but no alterations when a clone is born.

[@mrbuttocks6772]

@@SocalCoyote That is a terrible analogy for this situation. An engineered retrovirus or something similar can easily make edits to the DNA of mature cells, and not only that but there exist NATURAL viruses that can reproduce in a host cell without killing said host. So by adding that particular feature into the retrovirus, the Kaminoans could quite easily fix the accelerated aging in a mature clone.

[@jbelfort42069]

its only like that cuz of out of universe reasons that filoni does not want clones portrayed as bad guys and vaders fist but rather have them be victims and gone from the empire asap unlike legends where they served for a long time. Clones born at the end of the war in 19bby would still be less than 40 fighting by the og trilogy while filoni made it where the young clones that would grow up into the empire are abandoned (asides from purge troopers )

[@cadenturnley5772]

Bad for business

[@secla_SC]

The Clones in BB season 1 also all had their inhibitor chips activated, which is a huge reason as to why they showed little to no individuality and became more aggressive.

[@cujo3440]

No shit

[@fissilepear7805]

Weird to me how they were “more aggressive” considering Nala Se specifically said the chips were designed to make the clones less aggressive.

[@secla_SC]

@@fissilepear7805 Wasn't that just a lie to make sure the clones kept their chips in and to cover up Order 66?

[@jaym6239]

@@fissilepear7805 which coulda been a lie considering the fact she been tryna cover up evidence about it when it was exposed

[@secla_SC]

@@fissilepear7805 I always thought that was a lie to cover up the truth.

[@OptimusWombat]

Once Jango's original DNA samples were exhausted, each subsequent batch of clones had to be cloned from clones. Star Trek had a term for the degradation resulting from this: "replicative fade". It's like making photocopies from photocopies of photocopies. Edit: in case anyone's wondering, the term "replicative fade" was mentioned by Dr. Pulaski in TNG: Up the Long Ladder.

[@Planag7]

It's so unusual to me because they mentioned in the actual movie that they took several samples and paid him significantly. I would have required Full samples, tissues to be saved and of course sperm samples just because. It always seemed to me like we just got a small blood vial and just kind of did their best with it

[@reddeaddude2187]

​@@Planag7 Lol. "Just because"

[@krispalermo8133]

@@Planag7 Matching Fett " .. cough, cough," .. with all of those top female bounty hunters would create multiple bloodlines forming their own ethic tribes/nations within Mando. In legends there was the Fel clones that survive the Thrawn trilogy having their own family communities colonies. When the Clone Wars final came out and who/what Boba Fett was. Boba has nieces and nephews numbering in the millions.

[@jonathanpilcher337]

They could've just kept an unaltered first generation clone in bacta and used his dna indefinitely. Storing multiple full samples from jango like someone else mentioned would've also made sense. It's just odd that they didn't think of these things

[@OptimusWombat]

@@jonathanpilcher337 I agree, it's a pretty huge plot hole.

[@peace_.was_never_an_option]

Alan you fool, you forgot to close the blinds on the window before speaking of Boeing

[@Prophetofthe8thLegion]

Its so sad that Alan killed himself by contracting every virus known to man before shooting himself 54 times in the back of the head and then drowning himself in the pool after strangling himself with a cord and electrocuting himself at the same time. Man really had some demons.

[@dragonweyr44]

Not to mention, turning on the tv, radio faucet, shower and every electronic appliance possible

[@garmenlin5990]

Bold of you to assume a sniper wouldn't have an IR scope for the job

[@kingnothing5678]

Bro is even sitting too conveniently next to a highrise window

[@kaimuller3323]

Bro is in a Hotel room of the Shangri-La in Hong Kong, I recognize the view 💀

[@HolyknightVader999]

Deteriorating DNA is the obvious culprit, aside from rushing out soldiers to fill demands.

[@justsoicanfingcomment5814]

What i've always wondered was why they didn't just build a three d model of the genetic material for jango fet? That way they could just recreate the genetic material through chemistry whenever they wanted.

[@scottlyons8130]

Genetic degradation is one thing that makes cloning process a dead end.

[@HolyknightVader999]

@@scottlyons8130 They can get Boba's genes for perfect recreation.

[@scottlyons8130]

@HolyknightVader999 perhaps for the first 25 runs but like a photo copy of photo copies it just keeps getting blury

[@Zalwalloo]

​@scottlyons8130 just keep copying an original clone thats kept in a bacta tank. Its copying the same copy, not copy of a copy of a copy

[@eddapultstab2078]

I think DNA degradation was just a smoke screen. One thing that certainly changed from gen 1 is that jango fett was no longer there. Jango brought far more than his genetic material to the clone army, he brought his entire book of business as well. The entire first generation had most if not all the major trainers hand picked by him. Many mercenaries who were teaching the bog standard troopers probably had a connection to jangos career. His presence alone may have had an effect on the facilities operations alone and when he died the effects were immediately felt. Another major factor may be the wartime training method as well. The first generation were trained in practically every military role and where on standy by, which means that they not only completed their training cycle and stanby but basically doing regular drills for who knows how long when obi wan discovers them. As the war progressed, training is not only progressively condensed to shorten training expenses and time but it may be that the kaminoans were pushing the growth times to their limit to keep up demand. We dont really know all the details yet but I really believe the genetic supply issue is just a cover for all the implementations they have been no doubt discreetly applying through the clone wars.

[@CT_Taylor]

i think your theory of role training is likely correct based on the phase i armor marking system seen on the clones and how quickly it changed for the GAR by the clone wars tv show. by then they now knew who was needed where and for what

[@InfernosReaper]

The math does make it seem like degradation was just an excuse for subpar performance of later models. There is something to be said for having high quality marketing props to show off before you switch to more cost-effective options. We see this in the tech industry a lot, where a quality product will come out for a good price and it'll get great reviews, then they'll secretly switch to selling a downgraded version in its place or with a very similar name. For example, Kingston infamously did this with a line of SSDs. Similarly, Nvidia done this with a few video cards, most notably the GT 1030

[@RRVCrinale]

There's a real-world parallel to what I think went on with the Kaminoans: Soviet tanks. After WWII, the Soviets had to design brand-new tanks because their stock was awful to maintain for long. Many of their wartime tanks were engineered so, on average, they would start to fail _after_ the average time to hull destruction. I imagine perhaps the Kaminoans started taking shortcuts with clone batches after simply looking at their battleplans and how the clones were meant to fight and win, seeing the data they were getting on average service life against real-world attrition rates, and simply engineered them so that they, too, would on average start failing after they were typically killed in action. Why craft a clone trooper that takes six months to make and lasts for ten years if you lose the average trooper in five months? Why not make a clone that can be made in three months, and lasts for six months? If you can make that clone's clanker equivalent last for five and you're uncontested for that extra month, you're winning. The counter-argument for this would be that tanks don't become useful veterans the way clones might, but if you're collecting and logging data and analyzing their veterancy for them, then the next batch of clones will carry that data through modified training.

[@elpinguinovolador4114]

You have just made me realize about that plot hole on clone cadets, as much as i hated the concept of the deteriorating genétic material i never realized how the maths didnt worked, lol.

[@GenerationTech]

yeah the weird thing is even if the republic wanted to ramp up the clone production it still wouldn't have come into efffect for another 9 years

[@mr.boomguy]

​@@GenerationTech Perhaps they where talking about the clones that where already close to completion

[@isaackim7675]

Those last units of Clone Cadets deserved better. They were supposed to be soldiers but instead became lab rats

[@RichelieuUnlimited]

Unless the Kaminoans had an idea around what time the war was to take place and then accelerated the aging process in later batches even further *to meet that timeframe. Common soldiers don’t need the same degree of intelligence and training as their commanders.

[@punbug4721]

​​@@mr.boomguy Yeah. It's possible, maybe even likely, that what clued the Kamiinoans in to the degraded DNA was the symptoms, and that the degraded DNA went unnoticed for quite some time, certainly long enough for things to become unrecoverable, with both multiple batches of clones already reaching the end of production and also the death of Jango Fett.

[@samlynn1652]

I would like to suggest an alternative idea. What if it's not genetic degradation but the Kaminoan alterations. You notice each generation is less independent and more obsessed with rules. That they increasingly lack a personality. That sounds like something a cloner who only vaguely understand humanity might see as desirable. So my suggestion is that each generation of clone troopers is further altered in an iterative way to increase the traits that the Kaminoan's desire. But due to them not really understanding humans or warfare select and enhance the wrong traits.

[@GenerationTech]

That’s a interesting theory and it fits with the kaminoan mindset

[@tintinlchevreau1135]

​@@GenerationTechit would also make it more likely, that they clone Gen 2 clones from Gen 1 Dna and so on, not because Jango wasn't around, but because they thought that cloning the altered clones would alter the next gen even further with less independence and so on, and it did, but it also made them less skilled and competent in the process, and they just realized that, when it was to late and Jango was already dead. That would even solve the plot hole of the dialogue between Shaak ti and lama su, which always felt like it disregarded the timeline of all the adult clones having to have been born years prior to Jangos death

[@wyattcole5452]

@@GenerationTech I’m so confused Generations? Did anyone pay attention to the Kaminoan scene? They don’t pop out of a machine as adults or grow in a year, they grow, if I remember right, “half as fast”, so maybe 9-10 years? Which fits with the time between Sifo Dyas ordering the army and Obi Wan discovering it… it’s one huge generation fighting these wars, they didn’t have time to grow another

[@nathanieljackson5554]

With Jango killed and the shear amount of clones needed for the conflict, it not surprising that the dna was getting stretched out. The Kaminoans knew whst was happening and tried to adjust. It just unfortunate that only one person was used as a template. Multiple batches of viable dna could have avoided the issues that showed up later in the war.

[@cairdin12]

only using jango was likely a deliberate move, not by the kaminoans, but by Darth Sidious.

[@conatus1306]

@@cairdin12 If we're hypothesizing on a fictional setting, it also makes sense to only use one set of DNA for the sake of making people who would be compatible with one another. They're soldiers, remember - they need to fit within a set mold and behave in ways that they can predict in order to execute complicated strategies. If they have notable differences, it makes them harder to manage which limits the organizations scalability.

[@agustinmelar5496]

@@conatus1306 yeah, but theres a middle point from taking too many samples, and having a single dude on active duty be your only genetic material source

[@conatus1306]

@@agustinmelar5496 True, but we're just talking about fiction. In reality, limited diversity within a set mold (I think) is the better approach.

[@agustinmelar5496]

@@conatus1306 yeah, maybe i came out wrong since its not my native languaje, but i think you got a fairly good point, just that maybe they would choose a few spare sources that are similar enought to fit the mold and dont run the risk of loosing the only source

[@xxxlonewolf49]

The long necks didn't remove their planet from star charts. It was done for them to keep the army secret.

[@whatupvon]

first time ive seen racism or a derogatory term towards kaminoans lmao

[@xxxlonewolf49]

@@whatupvon that you project racism onto an accurate description of someone or something just shows how racist you are

[@rustedknight]

Long necks 😂

[@tsm688]

How the hell do you *pay* a secret planet? It can't be money -- foreign currency is worthless without trade.

[@Uhmwthjgotsarged]

-Domino squad was probably an indicative outlier of their generation, but Allen didn’t mention all the developing Clones lost in the Battle of Kamino (which was earlyish during the war). -Disney “canon” also throws out the 2nd Battle of Kamino from BattleFront2. The fight between Empire aligned clones wiping out brother secretly raised to be completely loyal to the Kaminoans. -Also, Legends lore mentions (in the Republic Commando book series by Karen Traviss) Spaarti Clones developed independently by Palpatine on a moon of Coruscant that made up much of the Coruscant Guard ‘Shock Troopers’ and assumably some Core World forces. These knock-off clones were described as ‘dumb, distracted and/or oblivious.’ They were raised on a “Kamino” that did not rain. -The evolution of clone individual identities was also going to be an issue as they rapidly aged

[@CloneCommanderCrater1102]

You're correct about everything except for the Spaarti clones making up the bulk of the Coruscant Guard. In Legends, a majority of the Coruscant Guard was Kaminoan-grown Fett clones, but, towards the end of the war, Spaarti clones were cycled into both the Coruscant Guard and the 501st Legion to both bolster their forces and make sure they were prepared for Order 66 (which, unlike the Kamino clones, the Spaarti clones knew was going to happen).

[@InfiniteNaos]

The prime minister himself admitted the cloners had to stretch the DNA after Jango’s death, plus Boba was missing, and at the time Omega was off limits. So having the DNA stretched over the generations would cause quality degradation which we got to see in a few clones through the war. 99, the heavy trooper during Umbara, Tup with the chip malfunction, maybe Clone Force 99 but they were defiants not defectives, etc.

[@InfernosReaper]

The math really doesn't add up with that squad, though. They were created *before* Jango died.

[@InfiniteNaos]

@@InfernosReaper That is true, my guess is that through genetic tinkering they were given special enhancements to make them quite literally an army compacted into 4 soldiers. -Tech: Brains -Wrecker: Muscle -Crosshair: Eye sight/precision -Hunter: Senses -(Bonus) Echo: Technology interface/ARC Trooper

[@Codyno]

hardcase?

[@InfiniteNaos]

@@Codyno Yes, hard case. He was a little more excited than most clones, especially full frontal assaults.

[@miniaturejayhawk8702]

​@@InfiniteNaos its echo, not fives.

[@richardklein1167]

They should've just picked up Boba Fett and told him, "Your dad died, so we're taking your DNA to clone it into a new, similar set of troops." And forced him to do so. I could see the Kamanoins doing that honestly if they were that desperate.

[@kevind3974]

They tried and they failed miserably. They also did not want to use omega (you can thank Nama se for that one) Once it moved to the empire they never even tried to go after boba as he was to strong by that point in time. While them going after omega is one of the biggest reasons why the clone and project necromancer programs failed and were stalled for nearby 30 years. Their failure was so bad all around they went fuck it and went to exigul. Those two were nothing but a massive unending drain on their resources. Just not worth it

[@justsoicanfingcomment5814]

You know, it's surprising.They didn't create a handful of unaltered clones at the beginning to use as fall back redundant templates. It's also surprising that they did not begin to scale up production. Not in the sheer numbers being output. But in the sheer number being put into the vets. Slow down the growth acceleration with batch put in. Until they have a long steady line of long lasting high quality clones. Yes they needed to scale down production. But all they had to do is just reduce the number of clones.They were making with each batch for the number of batches at a time. Any excess clones could simply be put into cryo stasis. Until they were needed.

[@secretbaguette]

Why was this Comment Written in verse Like a shitty poem

[@justsoicanfingcomment5814]

@@secretbaguette Sorry i'm using speech to text. The speech to text does not work very well. But my arthritis makes it really painful to type everything out. I'm over a hundred. Probably won't be around for too much longer. But I still like to put my two cents in. Trying to keep up with you younger folks.

[@secretbaguette]

@@justsoicanfingcomment5814 That's entirely my bad lol, no hard feelings. Great job using the internet Grampa

[@justsoicanfingcomment5814]

@@secretbaguette I was always into Sci fi. Growing up I envisioned a world where everybody was in flying car. But by now everyone would have their own jetpacks. And that will be exploring other stars. I couldn't wait for it. Sadly I won't see that happen. But maybe you will. :)

[@1stMarDivDelta]

I just found this channel and I gotta say I’m loving your format of content. And I love the setup. It’s like you’re having a conversation with someone instead of hearing someone yapp for 10 minutes mark. Very informational too.

[@MaxWelton]

0:57 I could’ve sworn (based on AOTC) that Dooku erased it from the Jedi archives of his own volition

[@Official_Kayde_Games]

I think that this is also supported by 99, his mere existence (not why he was kept around, that was most likely Shaak-Ti’s decision) means that a). Defective clones were already a percent chance in the base cloning process(highly likely) or b). Because like you said the DNA sequence was degrading with every generation of clone making aberrations/mutations have higher chances of occurring(this also appears to be likely given the evidence).

[@RichelieuUnlimited]

In my opinion the behavioral changes in the later batches don’t so much indicate genetic degradation, instead it’s more consistent with *further accelerated aging. The younger the clones were, when they reached physical maturity *[and thus were somewhat set in their ways], the more immature they were mentally, second batch emotional like teenagers, third batch overly trusting but able to question their ‚parents‘, fourth batch exhibiting simplified thought processes like only thinking in stereotypes. I have no other basis for this assumption apart from the behavioral patterns exhibited.

[@RichelieuUnlimited]

This would also explain, why quality genetic material is required, as a shortening of the maturation process can to an extent be compensated by high intelligence, which is both dependent on genetics and education.

[@IsaacVizasLurie]

I love this explanation and wished Disney used it. Have Batch 2 Clones overwhelmingly rebel while Batch four are staunch imperials.

[@sammyfeitlin1409]

I love the video. You brought up a lot of great points and things that I had not considered or noticed. I would, however, like to pose a thought about Echo. As you said, Echo was a second-generation Clone obsessed with orders and repeated them often, hence earning himself the name Echo. I would like to point out that, unlike Dogma, Echo still retained independent thought after being held prisoner by the Techno Union and having his inhibitor chip basically rendered useless as it wiped out all of his pre-conditioned programming regarding his behavior. At this point, there is a drastic shift in Echo's character as, from that moment on, he goes from repeating orders to giving them. During the Bad Batch Echo sort of acts as an opposing force to Hunter. He can not just go his own way, he cares about his brothers. I feel like, in Echo's case, his inhibitor chip was just more effective. He has such a drastic jump from after he is blown up and joining the bad batch. Echo has his flaws for sure, just like Fives he's emotional, he spends most of the TBB grumpy and complaining which is funny to me. Just my thoughts on Echo

[@johannesbowers7467]

This is why (in Legends) the Empire DID maintain quite a robust Cloning program, with distinguished performance and excellence in combat donors selected as new prime donors as "a reward". Spaarti cloned individuals flash programmed as HYPER loyalists to the Empire are regularly seeded throughout the Stormtrooper Corps to strengthen their function as field Commisars ready willing and able to execute traitors unprompted. Having this shadow enforcement structure maintained the fear and paranoia as well as keeping even thinking of departure from the COMPNOR party line to a minimum.

[@nashzahm]

One thing i would have emphasized more were the levels of independence of each generation. Gen 1's and 2's like Rex, Cody, Fives, and Echo all were nominally independent and were able to think outside the box, while 3's and 4's didn't think for themselves as much and would stick to a rigid command structure. Obviously there were outliers like Tup but they were more rare and they weren't around the Jedi as long who instilled independence in them. That's why the Empire failed against the Rebellion, the Empire relied on troopers who weren't able to think for themselves while the Rebels allowed their units to be more independent. The same thing happened in World War 2, the US Army then and now does not always rely on a rigid command structure, with units being able to take charge and make their own decisions in battle if they think it will turn the tide. Where as the Germans and Soviets stuck to a top down structure where it lead to units not taking the initiative, losing them battles.

[@codieomeallain6635]

Lmao? In the words of one of the preeminent WW2 historians, Robert Citino, “Operational-level German commanders (corps and above) saw themselves, and were recognized by the General Staff, as absolutely independent in spirit and behavior; they were free agents while on campaign… it is almost impossible to find an occasion when a ‘mission’ as defined by the supreme command took precedence over the wishes of a battlefield commander.” The Germans suffered more often from officers doing as they pleased than being constrained by top down leadership, and often officers acted as they saw fit to the point of outright disobeying orders.

[@Zalwalloo]

The empire had gotten rid of the clones before the rebellion really took off. Look at Rebels. Rex, Wolfe and Gregor are all old men, it takes place right before A New Hope. But the clones started getting phased out almost immediately after the Republic was absolved into the Empire. (See Bad Batch)

[@megahunterkiller]

@@codieomeallain6635Lmao don’t worry the OP is stupid

[@nashzahm]

@@Zalwalloo Im not meaning that the empire used clones to fight the rebels, i know they were all cast aside. What i mean is the Empire's structure failed because they wanted people at the top to control everything and individual action was discouraged.

[@nashzahm]

@@megahunterkiller says the guy with the most 2010 Xbox Live username.

[@Doodlebobo7289]

I get the clones have accelerated ageing but if jango died 3 years before the end of the war, the regs in the bad batch shouldn't have been effected? They'd already be 6 (12 in clones years) by the time jango died. I think the kaminoans were more focused on much much later generations of clones. As war profiteers they'd be hopeful it would last at least until 13bby.

[@dogloversrule8476]

8:58 Allan, Cody wasn’t first gen clone. He states in the TCW Geonosis arc that he wasn’t at the first battle of Geonosis.

[@tintinlchevreau1135]

I don't think every Gen 1 Clone fought in the first battle of Geonosis So him not fighting in that battle, does not contradict him being a Gen 1 Clone

[@thefanwithoutaface8105]

Kind of makes you wonder what would've happened if they got their hands on Boba early in the war and thus had a fresh batch of arguably purer Fett DNA.

[@pretzelbomb6105]

Boba wasn't born naturally. He was part of the payment Jango received for donating his genetic material: a clone to raise as his son. Boba aged at the normal human rate and lacked the other standard modifications present in clone troopers, but he was still a clone. Purer than Omega, presumably, considering he expressed the same genetic triggers as his father, but otherwise there wasn't much of a difference between him and a first-generation cadet.

[@demonicangel0268]

Bro I only now realized Boba Fett and Omega are basically brother and sister

[@CT_Taylor]

@@demonicangel0268 no, they are not. not in the sense commonly understood as being family culturally or blood, they are clones of the same person, so they are at best identical twins which one had an extremely rare genetic disorder or developmental disorder causing omega to express female (There are more than one thing IRL that could explain this but the chance of happening esp to a set of twins, and only one of those twins, is so small lol!) But they dont even know eachother, so i would say they are off the same line but different shifts.

[@codemancz798]

@@pretzelbomb6105 I don't think Boba being a clone would be a detriment. He is unaltered. Physically, he should be identical to Jango Fett, like real-life clones are.

[@pretzelbomb6105]

@@codemancz798 Possibly, but that's assuming the Kaminoans are capable of making a clone that is a full equivalent to the donor. Of all the human clones we see, all but two are modified to age quicker and spent most of their lives fighting in a war, making them very poor data for general health. The other two are Boba, who seems to keep up good health as an adult, and Omega, who expresses the genes differently and has yet to appear on-screen as an adult anyways, making a comparison to Jango difficult and impossible, respectively. For all we know, they could have an expected lifespan in the 70's, be more at risk for certain diseases, or who knows what else. Or maybe they'll be 100% fine, who knows? I hate to say it, but canon hasn't gone there. What I DO know from working in a copy shop for several years is that copying a copy works well enough the first time, but even then there's a noticeable quality drop.

[@848452848452]

Love how you tie in the topics with real world issues going on like boeing and other things. Much respect

[@kylerowley8248]

lol, we just had a meeting at work talking about boing. Said that they had been taking our parts and sending them to third world countries like India until a door came off midflight, so now we are getting our parts back.

[@point73.]

I think other possible factors can include the quality of training as the Kaminoans attempted to rush out more and more clones, as well as them increasing the intensity of the inhibitor chip programming.

[@FreeThePorgs]

Allen on behalf of Boeing we would like to invite you on a new 777 next generation, it will be a 18-hour nonstop flight to japan. You will never wanna ever come back.....ever....

[@nicklausdavis]

Something id like to add that felt kind of over looked is the fact that gen 1 soldiers not only had more time fighting than later gens (due to being born and deployed sooner) but they also fought a far less effective separatist army. So duh, if you put a gen 1 clone with years of battle field experience next to a fresh gen 4, obviously there are going to be differences aside from any related to rushed training and deteriorated dna.

[@RichelieuUnlimited]

If aging is only doubled in speed, training time wouldn’t go down as much - you can send 8 year old clones to war, bit by the time they’re only 7, you‘ve kind of reached their physical limits. In my opinion the behavioral changes are consistent with further accelerated aging.

[@mikagrof9243]

@@RichelieuUnlimited I think its a combo of that and the earlier gen clones being hardnend by years more of experience in combat/trauma etc.

[@shoresean1237]

I'm going to disagree with you about the rude clones from the first BB episodes; I tend to look at the newly uncivil attitude many of them took as a coping mechanism. Many of them had just come back from Order 66, where they had auto-pilot Vegeta-spammed their generals with small arms and other fire without let or mercy, and few if any knew about the chips. At this point, they had just done something terrible and enacted punishment for a crime they could not be sure their Jedi had ever known of or engaged in. Since, so far as they knew, they who often wondered about orders ruthlessly followed this newest one and then basically woke up with the world they knew shattered and their place in it badly in question - with the answer turning darker with each day. One way people have when confronted with this is to question everything as Cody apparently did. Another easier way is to double down - not merely the possibly implanted 'Good Soldiers' mantra - but a far worse one: "Q: What kind of people do horrible things? A: Horrible people." To their minds, they were now these horrible people, and maybe they had been all along. So they go from admiring the Batch to pushing them aside and dismissing them, in part because they didn't seem to be going through what they were. However, I will concede that maybe the lower quality of the materials for these later clones made them more vulnerable to this doubling down, which in the Real World we have seen explode in politicians, comic book creators, and others.

[@COOLMOIVE24]

remember guys he didn't kill yourself

[@user-oj7jt3zs7j]

I fight for captan Rex

[@jakealter5504]

Yes

[@daerok7502]

Good soldiers follow orders

[@matthewjay660]

I fight for General Syndula.

[@isaackim7675]

@@matthewjay660Which one? (Joke)

[@kitfistodajedi]

@@isaackim7675 I fight for General Cham

[@BradyJones-x8b]

Love your videos man I love the way you discuss Starwars reminds me of conversations with some of my friends

[@nikkipackham2234]

It’s really interesting that they presented all this for us to see, but hasn’t really been discussed until now. I didn’t see all of the clone wars and remember only a few episodes and didn’t realise the significance of seeing the squad being trained and the implications. Did the Empire realise this and looked for alternatives…as robots weren’t the key. Could you do an in depth on stormtroopers? The uniform dehumanises them, no names only numbers..brainwashing?

[@grahamross6397]

The dolphins run Wall Street, I'm sure of it.

[@dolphinwarlord6908]

Shhhhh

[@bennettbush3906]

Like the football team💀

[@BugRib]

@dolphinwarlord6908 - Dolphin infiltrator! 😤 Reported!

[@grahamnlegos]

2:27 I went here for vacation once. The upper class areas of Coruscant are truly lovely.

[@LUR1FAX]

In the original Batlefront 2 game, there's a mission where the Kaminians rebel against the Empire by turning new clones against them. In the game it is explained that this event caused the Empire to go abandon cloning in favor of recruiting soldiers.

[@chrismill85]

Some Chancellor's office vibes for the start of the video😆

[@Lyall4]

Here I thought part of the reason, would have been they keeps accelerating the aging affect in order to get more clones into service faster, which in turn meant less time for training

[@trevorscheffler]

a series of videos that cover each year of the Galati Civil War like you did with the clones wars would be really cool

[@Mister_Mag00]

a star wars channel that like isn't toxic and is just like chill and shit that i dont hate what?????????

[@matthewrogers94mr]

This also reminds me of stargate and the asgard and how they kept cloning new bodies and transfered their minds into these bosies but they were with major health issues that affected their bodies.

[@Matt-md5yt]

Sweet a new clone video

[@braydenpage1808]

I never thought about this before. This video was incredibly interesting and informative. I love finding out more about Clome Troopers and pretty much anything related to them.

[@cobaltprime9467]

I like to point out that there are other series that have better cloning processes. Apparently in Ben 10 you can buy a kit. Like it’s for kids. Now the kit can expire, like it did with the Vreedle Brothers, but you can just buy another kit.

[@kyr_taap]

You sitting next to that window.. got me thinking that you might want to try manipulating the backdrop, i.e. making it look like your on Coruscant 🤔

[@MotoHikes]

Really interesting video (although they always are)! Have nothing to add to the discussion, just wanted to say this was a great topic :)

[@Deyone_Jackson]

I would think they would've gotten better because of all the experience they got and could share with the younger ones who are still in training.

[@Helibenone]

I would love to know, how were the Kaminoens paid, since credits is not much use if youre isolated from the galaxy, and how did the whole food and infrastructure work

[@samryan180]

I really expected a sniper to be CGI'd in there when he spoke the truth about Boeing. Also, be safe as Agent 47 works for Boeing.

[@esanthnandiraju3014]

I didn’t really notice this because tup did so good in umbra, but it was his first battle

[@AMJazzy96]

Alan, I loved that you picked Tun Dr. Mahathir as your example of a prime minister.😂 Malaysia represent!🇲🇾

[@danojii]

I had to rewind the video just to confirm I saw Tun.M in the video. 😂

[@AMJazzy96]

@@danojii Alan knows that TDM’s our Palpatine. 🤣

[@NightHunter571]

Another reason for the degradation of quality not covered I. This video is the degradation of training. The first generation of clones were primarily trained by a rather elite group of mandalorians and select specialists such as bounty hunters gathered by Jango not to mention Jango himself. Over time many of these individuals left the training program and they were replaced by people chosen by the kaminoans, the Jedi or the GAR. This meant that each generation was slowly given a lower quality education and training than their elder brothers. This is seen most in the amount of mandalorian culture and knowledge each generation has, with 1st gen clones like Rex and Cody being pretty close to full mando’s while later generations have almost no connection to their progenitors culture.

[@carthienesdevilsadvocatenr2806]

Interesting theory but, given the age of many of these clones, I don't feel it is quite enough. However, we don't know how the Kaminoan Cloning process works and, in many Sci-Fi settings it is necessary to 'stabilise' clones (especially modified clones) with additional samples of original DNA throughout their growth cycle, so that is a definite possibility. I think it's largely a training issue - the original generation had a decade of dedicated training, even continuing once they had achieved a passing grade, whilst the later batches were under immense pressure to produce more clones quickly. The reason Spaartii clones are inferior to Kaminoan is that they get zero training, instead having the requisite knowledge essentially downloaded into their head during their growth cycle. Thus, they entered combat with full academic knowledge of their role, but no practical knowledge until they gained that experience in live combat - assuming they survived. Spaartii clones were essentially the clone equivalent of the B1. Another possibility for the ongoing degradation of the clone troopers is actually Kaminoan tampering. They made alterations to the Clones' DNA to make them more 'perfect' soldiers, and I am sure that when they saw the results they made further alterations in an effort to further perfect their efforts. Passionate combatants are more effective, so long as they are obedient... too much passion causing disobedience? Dial it down again! Editing and Edited Edit causes degradation, so it should come as no surprise that such constant tweaking would produce lesser clones; added to which, what the Kaminoan's consider a 'perfect' clone might not correspond to what we consider a 'perfect' soldier. Of course, the Most Likely explanation is some combination of all of the above. No reason to think that any single factor would be solely responsible for anything.

[@Uhmwthjgotsarged]

I wonder if the Null and/or Alpha class Clones would even consider working with Force 99, especially considering how derivative ‘Regs’ are of Jango Fett

[@pontuswendt2486]

Thankyou!!! I have always wondered how many generations of clones there where! Great Video!!!

[@OmegaCT55555]

2:14 gotta look out for the snipers just incase

[@joaopedrotesserolli9687]

This video was amazing! Props to your background, it looks like coruscant! 😂

[@Darth_B]

I’m pretty sure it’s just the window of his big city apartment lol

[@joaopedrotesserolli9687]

@@Darth_Byeah no joke

[@someguyma]

Replicative fading...Star Trek the Next Generation had an episode of dealing with that

[@MrTrees77]

Funny you should mention Boeing, prior to them merging with McDonald Douglas, they were one of the best companies and manufacturers out there. I remember listening to an interview about a guy who wrote about the Boeing whistleblowers before all this stuff started happening. Basically when we got rid of regulations that prevented large mergers like between Boeing and McDonald. Douglas, it allowed these major companies to control huge parts of the market. And the McDonald Douglas executives used their profit-driven model to muscle out a lot of the old Boeing executives that actually cared about the product they were producing, and so the old s***** McDonald Douglas way of doing things. Just got rebranded as the Boeing way of doing things. This is why it's important to yes, have a market, but also in certain sectors that market needs to either not exist (as in like the military, there shouldn't be multiple militaries for a country to hire, there should only be one military and its organized by the government and controlled by the government, preferably a democratically elected government) or the market should be heavily regulated to prevent such actions and mergers that we see with the Boeing/McDonald Douglas situation.

[@GenerationTech]

Yup they got Americans all up in arms about identity politics when the corporations have literally destroyed every small business in this country 🤦‍♂️, killed the middle class completely.

[@tequila6955]

That view is amazing. Dig the new pad.

[@oliverbrooks4588]

Amazing you got to the upper levels of coruscant look at that skyline

[@PatSmashYT]

I remember reading years ago that the clones after Order 66 were deliberately made defective and the Empire decided to get rid of everyone in Kamino and mostly switch to conscripts

[@austingomon3310]

When he started talking about Boeing I was waiting for a plane to start growing bigger outside the window

[@majordddd]

Welll nice knowing you....

[@gamerboyofficalyt]

Its like generation loss except for clones

[@davepowder4020]

In an Alien Prometheus easter egg, Weyland's diary entry talks about his difference in philosophy with Tyrell from Blade Runner. Tyrell did the Replicants that finally turned on him, while Weyland did the androids seen in Aliens.

[@primal1233]

Good soldiers follow orders

[@PartyHorse42699]

6:39 - The degradation of the material may also be influenced by the changes needed to modify the aging process so that they grow faster, or the personality modifications to make them more docile, cooperative, etc. - Original material aside, making alterations would further increase any flaws, possibly exponentially.

[@JamieByrne-dc1rr]

This isnt how it works .. were not talking about egg and sperm cells, its not IVF. Its DNA they are saying is degrading. If you take someones DNA, you can sequence it, you know the exact base pairs in the genome. You can recreate this strand with the nucleotides as many times as you wish. (granted it may take time) With our level of technology this is possible and star wars is more advanced? DNA does degrade, but as long as you sequenced it at a point of time, you can recreate that again in the exact same way.

[@dh1148ify]

Best Star Wars channel

[@aslamnurfikri7640]

Kamino reminds me of Spain during WW1. A lot of countries bought guns from Spain like Ruby pistol (basically bootleg Browning 1903) that it created a boom in Spain. However when WW1 ended the demand just gone and the industry died

[@Star_Wars_With_PercyMan]

That's one hell of a window!

[@ss4jarmon]

Copies of copies. Each page is duller and less defined. Same with clones, each batch is less refined and previous batch

[@Darkrealm7]

The Boeing Hired Gun 3 buildings over: "Damn it, he's deployed the chair!"

[@andrewdau1299]

Your comparison of Clone Generations reminds me of the Spartan generations from Halo. There is an exception with the Spartan I's since they are a prototype to the Spartan II's. But the general decline is noticeable.

[@Dragonild]

Kind of off topic, but it’s kind of freaking me out how much Dogma looks like Tech in the thumbnail (Yes I know they’re literally clones, but Tech has a very unique look for a clone)

[@GenerationTech]

Yea I blame it on the wide angle perspective of the shot it definitely stretches his head. That’s a screenshot from the execution scene in umbara

[@extremel.z.s3140]

I did not expect you guys to use Tun Dr Mahathir as an example, nice tho

[@datastorm75]

The Kaminoans saw the Clone Force 99 as a failure purely because they were unique. The Kaminoans seem to value as perfect of replication as possible. Also, remember that the initial clones were modified from the original donor to bring out certain things. It might be the implementation of these modifications that led to the DNA instability. Perhaps the DNA they have continued to drift from baseline (maybe they need the DNA material to be kept "alive" for it to be useful in cloning). This would be seen as a failure to the Kaminoans, and could make your average late model clone generally not as top shape as your initial models which were modified to be as tip top as possible. Embracing this drift created Clone Force 99. Rejecting it created clones who had to be increasingly artificially modified to bring them as close to replication spec as possible.

[@soniccdx]

so Dr Mahathir makes a cameo ... 😅😆

[@justadarnminute474]

I always thought Halle Burtoni's name was perfect. The Fett DNA degrading, or exhibiting itself further, with regards to the exhibition of emotion and free-thinking. Some would say the Jedi contact influenced their moral code, but also like you say, even prior to graduation and assignment, they were showing more impulsive, aggressive tendencies. I don't know if we've seen enough of Jango to say he's got "aggressive tendencies," per se, but you make a good point about what is "optimal" from the Prime Minister's perspective. It doesn't mean "the same as Jango Fett" necessarily, just that the degradation of the DNA makes it harder for them to control what comes out.

[@AlternativePyxel]

Hey GenTech, I only got audio in my left ear. Is this just a me issue or exporting issue?

[@josiepurple7681]

'A clone apart' makes so much sense now..

[@lachlanbold8319]

I thought Jango not training or overseeing training of the clones caused the problems.

[@lerneanlion]

I just suddenly realized this! If the Kaminoans have the Prime Minister, do they have Royal Family? If so, why we never see them?

[@thejoker7710]

I wonder why they’d hunt only Omega down for the purpose of achieving “close to Jango” pure DNA and not also Boba Fett. And aside from possibly succeeding at gaining proper DNA to Clone more Clones, the issue I see is proper training too. I know many of the first generation Clones were trained by Jango and other Mandalorians. At the time of the Empire, Jango and many Generation one Clones are long gone and idk about the initial Mandalorian trainers but the issue of proper and effective training is a huge question that’s never discussed

[@Hieronymus_Flex]

After watching this video I can't help but wonder, why didn't the Kaminoans ever consider just getting a completely new donor for clones? There are plenty of other skilled bounty hunters in the galaxy. Once the Fett DNA was degraded, why not start making an army of Cad Banes or Fennec Shands?

[@wyattcole5452]

Generations? Did anyone pay attention to the Kaminoan scene? They don’t pop out of a machine as adults or grow in a year, they grow, if I remember right, “half as fast”, so maybe 9-10 years? Which fits with the time between Sifo Dyas ordering the army and Obi Wan discovering it… it’s one huge generation fighting these wars, they didn’t have time to grow another

[@Darth_B]

They probably mean each one is a year. So the ones that were ready the a year before it started (Rex) were gen 1. The ones ready just as it started were gen 2. The ones that were ready 1 year into the war were gen 3 and the ones ready with only 1 year left in the war were gen 4

[@tk-6967]

In the EU, worse just meant worse. The 1st Generation clones took heavy losses in the first year of the war because Palpatine, Dooku and the CIS Council had clearly made a significant underestimation of the CIS' own capabilities despite having already made significant limitations prior to the war beginning. Even in TCW/Disney Canon, Tom Kane mentioned that younger troopers were being called up to the front earlier than expected. The Republic military was a complete mess in the first year, and it really is only after all of the Republic reserve troops are deployed following the Battle of Coruscant that the Republic is able to completely overpower the CIS.

[@johnw391]

Because they realize there lives were theirs and not to be wasted

[@TeenageMutantZuckerTurtle]

Gen 3+: not capable enough of independent thought, lack critical thinking and intelligence; glorified droids made only to follow Gen 2: leadership potential but too independent to the point of being at risk of irrational behavior Gen 1: Independent but rational, capable of gaining wisdom from experience; the perfect blend to create strong leaders

[@M4A1BestGirl]

It's because each clone was less like the original Jango Fett template than their predecessors. It might have been less of an issue if not for the accelerated cloning process, which forced Clones to evolve at a much faster rate. You see this with Boba, who was one of the first Gen-1 Clones, but unlike the others was not genetically engineered. Clones are required to undergo training on Kamino, as they do not inherently retain the memories of the galaxy's deadliest and most ruthless assassin. Breeding more Clones does not make them more effective, and I would assume it's because Gen-1s have the best genetics overall.

[@kounkieinc3714]

Love the clonewars. Writing was on point.

[@THEYEAR2143]

Really interesting topic as always o7

[@3ggh3ad]

with Jango Fett dead, and Kamino having to clone succsessive generations of clones, without his genetic material id view it like inbreeding, youre making copies of copies

[@twinlions7575]

This is a theory of mine, but I also think they probably force the clones to age even quicker based on demand… for example, I’m pretty sure the bad batch seem to age 3 times as fast given how omega remembered when they were babies and that she’s about the same age as Rex. It only makes sense because they need millions of soldiers and they had lack of time where generation one of clones had way more time to process…

[@jakeorb771]

You can also see the effects of the DNA degredation with the newer generation of clones in the looks of the cadets, who in the early seasons of the clone wars looked nearly identical. But in season 3 of the bad batch the cadets we meet look completly different to Jango and the other clones.

[@aeminence]

surprised they werent able to get Jangos corpse back in some way and just like, keep the head or body parts in a jar to preserve it and its genetic code. Theyd go into some room with like, body parts of Jango that theyd be sampling from.

[@QixTheDS]

Omega being called an “unaltered” clone of Jango is just bull.

[@DexMythology]

I know right it doesn't make sense she's a girl so very much geneticly altered.

[@BandClarinet3]

That reminds me what happened to lama su after the bad batch season? I thought he was kept at tantis

[@seanmoran9383]

Probably killed, he didkt have any uses

[@nashzahm]

They never explained it, they brought him there to interrogate him on how they could get Nala Se to work for them and then he disappeared.

[@WinterIsComing-ue6gz]

its inferred he was shot.

[@BandClarinet3]

Well after lama su helped get na la se to cooperate he was to be given his freedom per the deal with hemlock. How that turned out maybe we find out.