The Class 799 Hydrogen Train

[@Fan652w]

This is an extremely interesting video. But it misses one fundamentally important point which other commentators have also alluded to. The only GREEN way of manufacturing hydrogen is by electrolysis, That requires a lot of electricity. Put crudely, the electricity needed to power this class 799 is THREE TIMES as much as the electricity which would have been needed had it still been a 319 drawing power direct from an overhead wire!

[@abigailcooling6604]

Yeah, the main issue with hydrogen power is that it just pushes the power generation back a stage to creating the hydrogen, which can be just as bad or even worse than conventional fossil fuels. Unless they create more efficient manufacturing ofc, but I can't see when that's gonna happen.

[@absentmindedjunk]

In the process of electrolysis, (of which I know very little about) is hydrogen the waste product when separating highly reactive metals? Please correct me if I am wrong. Thank you for the info, I think I was thinking of something else

[@johnm2012]

​@@absentmindedjunkElectrolysis is the process of splitting water into its components, oxygen and hydrogen, using electricity. In this case it's the oxygen that's the waste product, though I'm sure they'll make use of it.

[@exsandgrounder]

@@absentmindedjunk Electrolysis is a process using electricity to drive a "non spontaneous chemical reaction" (ie one that wouldn't naturally occur as it needs a source of energy to power it). In this case, electrolysis of water would split two water molecules into two diatomic hydrogen molecules (H2) and one diatomic oxygen molecule (O2).

[@nickdawson9270]

Thanks, in plain words not economically viable in the real world, only in the Ed Miliband net-zero fantasy land.

[@matienlaciudad]

In Germany we have Hydrogen trains running since 2022 or 2023. However the latest news are that the goverment will cancel the project, as the train resulted way more inefficient and expensive than just electrifying the line where they run and buying a new fleet. I can't say if the problem is the technology as a whole or just the Alstom iLints that are a mess on rails.

[@katrinabryce]

The problem is with the technology as a whole.

[@martythemartian99]

I can see how on some lines, electrification would work out cheapest. Maybe with a battery back up for branch lines or for one of the very rare power cuts. However the technology you have developed will be very useful here in Australia (as well as many other places) because electrification only tends to happen close to the cities, not in the many thousands of kilometers of the country lines.

[@TrainFanFinland]

​@@martythemartian99 Electrification of Australian main lines could be very beneficial thing, not just for enviromental reasons, but because electric freight locomotives have much better performance than diesel (or hydrogen) ones, but it would also be massive undertaking and I can't see Australia making investment of this scale in rail infrastructure at the moment. Main situation where hydrogen trains could be beneficial, would be running quiet branch lines, especially in rural areas, where number of trains or demand for rail services is simply not big enough for electrification. Especially lines, with 1-2 trains per day, freight or passenger.

[@rogerphelps9939]

@@TrainFanFinland Batteries are almost always best.

The problem is the 17% (max!) efficiency from the electrical source (let's say it's from renewable production) to the power at the wheel-rail contact. The waste of 83% of energy is unbearable. Also, as a worldwide society we can't do everything with hydrogen as the means to synthesize it are not infinitely scalable, so we need to make choices of what to do with H2 and do nothing else. The best things to do with H2 made from renewable electricity is production of ammonia to be able to make fertilizers (without natural gas as of today), and to produce steel (sponge iron obtained by reduction of iron oxide with H2, without coal as of today). These two processes will swallow *all* the worldwide H2 you can produce with renewable electricity.

[@AttaboyIII]

This was one of my first projects as an engineer having left university! Very proud to see it rolling about :)

[@Chevy-jordan]

Thanks 🙏❤️‍🔥

[@adam200784]

Railway challenge 2012? My brother was on the Interfleet team that won that year. He moved back to Porterbrook. Wasnt it the Birmingham Uni team that ran on hydrogen? Think the Interfleet team used a different power source & a generator to charge

[@sh4wzy]

really cool man, congratulations

[@michaelatkinson7577]

Just commented to my wife that this would be a hugely interesting mechanical/electrical engineering project. Great work.

[@adambro5480]

The engineering is impressive but in all but very exceptional cases, the right approach is going to be overhead line equipment. We need to be talking more about the failure of successive governments to actually get on and electrify more of our railway.

[@abigailcooling6604]

Exactly, they've spent all this money on East West Railway but haven't bothered to electrify it? Makes no sense...

[@rogerphelps9939]

@@abigailcooling6604 I understand it is "for but not with."

[@lefthandedspanner]

I live on the Leeds-Barnsley-Sheffield line, which, like most lines in hilly areas has a ton of Victorian era bridges and tunnels, all of which are way too low to fit overhead cables the sheer cost and difficulty of rebuilding these means this line has zero chance of ever being electrified, and is more likely to be closed outright

[@BaileyChap]

@@lefthandedspanner third rail exists for these applications

[@andrewhotston983]

​@@lefthandedspannerThese lines CAN be electrified. All that's required is for projects to be done efficiently, by cutting all the red tape.

[@Thats_Mr_Random_Person_to_you]

As with all things Hydrogen. The issue is NOT the end use (ie h2 tanks using fuel cells to produce electricity for end use), its the production and distribution. Currently production requires extensive fossil fuel usage to make (ie converting energy into electricity, to then convert to hydrogen, to then convert back to electricity), and there are great plans to move to using excess green energy to produce h2 when not being used for the grid (eg using wind turbines to produce electricity even when the grid has no demand for it and to use that 'excess' to produce h2, thus improving the general energy efficiency of all systems), the next issue is distribution... h2 is super super super difficult to handle over long periods of time, the h2 molecules are soo small over time they will leak THROUGH solid metals, and cause material changes to the materials with time weakening them - to keep h2 liquid super high pressures are needed, so that weakening is a bad thing). I'm a huge proponent of green tech and putting as much into our systems as possible. But only where it makes sense. These trains are only helpful on non-electrified rails. But once you factor in soooo many other factors at play, over the long term it may well be cheaper to actually electrify the railway using traditional methods than to change the fuel source to h2. H2 offers no benefit over existing electrified systems as copper wires are the most efficient means of transfering the 'energy' from source to destination, every step of the h2 lifecycle loses energy. Where i can see these being genuinely game changing are the really really really long railway routes in the US and trans european routes. But even then the cost of H2 is still way more per km than diesel :( Great to see technology like this being developed in the UK as it would become a future export product using 'UK PLC IP' but lets be realistic as to its overall benefits (or potential lack thereof) in the UK itself. Love the video and great interview

[@gasdive]

Exactly correct. Of course for the cost of the fuel cells, the whole area taken up with H2 gubbins could have been stacked with lithium battery packs, and recharged every time the train goes under overhead wires. You wouldn't need to electrify the whole track. Probably just electrification at the stations would be sufficient.

[@gasdive]

Exactly correct. Electrification is the way forward. Where that's not possible, short sections of electrification and batteries make more sense. Batteries are vastly cheaper than fuel cells, and the efficiency of about 80-90% is vastly better than hydrogen at about 10-20%

[@gasdive]

Ahh, I thought my comment had been sucked into the aether. Now it's back along with its replacement. Oh well.

[@apuldram]

Could trolly wires be a pragmatic solution to electrification? Less efficient in power distribution, but better in installation costs… actually no reason that trolly wires can’t be 25k, just less catenary.

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

Why does every video like this have someone banging on out the cost or problems with producing hydrogen? They never seen to bang on about the costs and problems of producing any other fuel source.

[@paultidd9332]

I liked the meeting room onboard! It could become a new time efficient place to have company meetings while travelling.

[@OnTheRailwayOfficial]

What, and just cram everyone else in the other carriages

[@lassunsschaun6859]

@@OnTheRailwayOfficial nope, it would be a train to hire outside the normal schedule, rather like the luxury and tourist trains "Belmond Royal Scotsman", "Transcantábrico", "Seven Stars in Kyushu", "The Ghan" and some others.

[@OnTheRailwayOfficial]

@@lassunsschaun6859 and how do you expect to fit these services into an already at capacity timetable and at capacity lines??

[@markherzog9484]

Which is nothing to do with the power generation system, that would be a revenue management/yield decision…….

[@markherzog9484]

Just lay a 3rd rail and pick up power a La Southern Railways do…..

[@Mikeb1001]

‘Memories of riding these when they were ThamesLink and shabby’. Come up north, they’re still here and they’re still shabby (when they actually bother to turn up!)

[@Danse_Macabre_125]

Yours are still there and still shabby, but now with a MAN diesel engine taped under each driving coach!

[@frcdanoob9537]

from the 319, to the 769 to THIS! I love the look of the 319s and i am happy for them to not just to be sent straight to scrap, but some can be turned into this! I would love to see these 799s in service in future!

[@PointARail]

Once again another fantastic and well formatted video. It'd be great fun to see this be outshopped with the temporary office style seating; that would make a change for the norm. But these innovative products overperforming professional's expectations is marvellous. And, of course, at least it's got a compressor!

[@NinjaSurferTrainspotting]

That would be interesting during rush hour, a packed carriage in one carriage and a nice calm business meeting about portfolios in the other

[@abigailcooling6604]

Sitting across a table facing a complete stranger in rush hour? No chance, we're all too British for that

[@NinjaSurferTrainspotting]

@abigailcooling6604 isn't that what a 4 seater is meant for

[@PointARail]

@@NinjaSurferTrainspotting Haha their both pretty funny!

[@GoranNewsum]

We're just going to skip over the fact that they've made the train into an office with a conference room, break room and everything!

[@markiliff]

Presumably that was for the Glasgow COP

[@tantive4]

The sofas and board tables are my favourite bits

[@MrGlenLane]

Looking good, and it's a nice use for the old 319 stock. I like seeing old stock saved from the cutter's torch like this.

[@teejayy2130]

I love that its the job of the driver saying its his job to make it difficult for the train😊

[@MervynPartin]

I am not surprised that the train works well- the technology is well understood. Providing the hydrogen is another matter as it is either made from fossil fuel sources (defeating the purpose) or by the very inefficient electrolysis process. Let's hope that it is more reliable than the diesel conversions of the 319.

[@Fan652w]

I strongly agree with your electrolysis point.

[@johnm2012]

It's a better use of electricity than cryptocurrency mining, which is designed to be as wasteful of energy as possible.

[@brianfretwell3886]

@@Fan652w I believe the countries that produce hydrogen as an industrial by-product are more suitable for using it for transport. Also it's a pity about the wasted heat from the fuel cells, no wonder they have a relatively low efficiency.

[@AndrewCowell50]

Always good to see Boff at the controls. Unfortunately the only possible role for hydrogen in railways will be to provide a constant demand which kick starts some green hydrogen production. This will however need grant money as the economics are hopeless at the moment. Past that the inefficiencies of hydrogen production coupled with rapidly improving battery technology means I wouldn't place a bet on seeing any hydrogen trains this decade, or quite possibly next.

[@travelswithjess]

Great stuff Geoff😀 I never miss a video!

[@Northerner_Transport_Hub]

Love it that it has the original 319 electric motors. The sound of them gives me the biggest smile ever

[@StrawbyteWorkshop]

Nice to see Porterbrook with an initiative like this. I have fond memories of working with their IT systems when they were part of Abbey National PLC.

[@Sam-lm4ef]

It's really important that we start understanding how this Hydrogen is sourced as well as the differences between Green and Blue/Grey Hydrogen. One helps us move away from fossil fuels, the other only makes us more dependent on them.

[@kieranstravels]

The original motors and compressor from a 319 still being there is excellent!

[@rjsieder]

Here in California, a Stadler Zemu trainset is being used on the Arrow line, a 9 mile transit line between San Bernardino and the University of Redlands. This is a hydrogen/battery hybrid. Depending on its success, something like this is also being considered for Caltrain between San Jose and Gilroy. That portion of the Caltrain route has not been electrified, and is still running diesel powered trains. Some battery powered ones are also in the plans to replace the diesels at some point.

[@hoagy_ytfc]

Madness. All that space taken to store hydrogen that is usually produced by a dirty process.

[@dr.stephenstrange8471]

The problem with hydrogen energy is that it’s still much less efficient then overhead wires. It takes more energy to power a train using hydrogen than it does using overhead wires.

[@Deanrwp]

Hi Geoff, Another great video, I like the concept of Hydrogen Trains which will be extremely useful for lines in the UK that still do Not have electrification as eventually it will replace Diesel Trains when the Technology improves! 😊

[@jakewynn]

The best part of this is that the epic DC 319s will still be operating. This is totally awesome.

[@a11oge]

very informative and well editted video, so much so that I had to pause the vid and screenshot the diagram of the process to produce electricity. i agree with those comments on the energy needed to produce the H2. Hopefully overtime this aspect can be resolved.

[@totoro123]

Good to see the research going into it, but I remain very unconvinced that hydrogen is “the future” of transport. So much extra energy and infrastructure needed, will only be an edge case benefit where direct power is impossible.

[@K-o-R]

If Switzerland can make an electrified railway up _and through_ their highest mountain, then there is literally nowhere where "direct power is impossible".

[@HoltAlex]

Anything where weight is important (planes and ships) yes, otherwise batteries or direct electrification. Unless some game changing new tech appears, economics and physics make any other future impossible for hydrogen.

[@brushlessmotoring]

@@HoltAlex hydrogen is too volumous and low energy density for long haul planes, and batteries are likely to win out for short regional (< 200km) prop planes (e.g. Harbour Air battery sea plane) same for cargo ships vs. ferries. Once you have eradicated short haul flight with high speed electrified rail, the amount of long haul emissions are just not enough to warrant the effort when there are lower hanging fruit to be electrified first - ground transport, building heating, industrial heat and - somewhat ironically - the production of hydrogen for more useful applications than building heating and transport. Trains, planes and automobiles don't make sense to use hydrogen.

[@contrapunctusmammalia3993]

@@K-o-R you're totally right, genuienly the only place where OLE is incompatible is container terminals, for that niche battery shunters or bimode locomotives will do the job. Other than that, just electrify everything. It's not as crazy as people make it out to be if you just commit to the work

[@Mgameing123]

@@contrapunctusmammalia3993 Well I don 't think its a smart idea to electrify the Far North Line.

[@QALibrary]

The issue with hydrogen is it costs 200% to 400% more than diesel fuel and supplies can be an issue. That can spike the price by 800% more than diesel so in reality this makes this fuel a very limited-use application. Then you start hitting the laws of physics and chemistry, with hydrogen being less dense as a fuel so you need to use/buy 20% more to go the same distance as diesel (this is before you add in other factors as explained below). What was also not mentioned was the chemical properties of hydrogen which in turn causes issues with the physical properties of hydrogen and especially its effects on metal and esp rubber and plastic. Due to the above: A diesel fuel bunker costs X while a hydrogen fuel bunker costs X times ten. Due to the corrosive nature of hydrogen coupled with the chemical properties of hydrogen, every 3 to 6 the fuel rails & part of the engine and fuel bunker will need replacement. Even the best-sealed engines and fuel bunkers need to be replaced every 3 to 6 years because a good system loses 3% of fuel every 24 hours in boil-off off but come 3 years onwards boil-off rate increases up to 20% every 24 hours. And now the fun part - spare parts are extremely limited and expensive and the going rate of a hydrogen fuel technician is $1,000 to $1,500 per hour becuse they are in limited supply and most are working for rocket companies

[@Stuart_Johnson_Solutions]

Loving the ability to get power from overhead, regen, and in last resort hydrogen. Means all you have to do is put an overhead line at each station for charging when in the platform to make hydrogen use minimal.

[@ljjordanscottcrawford2008]

well done again geoff love this video

[@nickgiles7568]

Battery technology is advancing at pace. Given the lack of money available to the rail industry I cannot see hydrogen being a viable competitor for many years but it may happen eventually.

[@oforid2227]

like the fact that i can see the 701s being stored here aswell

[@finndriver1063]

Super video! Aberdeen & other places have been running h2 double-decker buses for a long time, and it seems to be a decent model for unelectrified public transport. All the hydrolysis energy comes from the wind farms, supposedly. I'm hopeful that an h2 train can work, since there is still no electrification plan for much of the network, and I think the tech might integrate a bit better than the dual-mode E/DMUs do. Plus we do need to stop oil now. For all it's flaws, hydrogen does seem like one of the better ways to portably store green energy, but it would have been interesting to hear more from the hydroflex team about the challenges that would face greater uptake of 799s and similar h2 plans.

[@philipbrailey]

Great video and much appreciated.

[@lawrencejob]

I will commit to travelling by rail if they have a snacks counter like that on the trains

[@AJGossTrains]

Fantastic video Geoff, very interesting. I thought they got rid of these. I used to see them at Redhill now and again. Best wishes, Andy Redhill platform staff 😁

[@Gwril76]

Great video and really interesting. Good to see this technology being developed for the rail industry.

[@tomboylan1522]

I thoroughly enjoyed your video. It looks like you had a great day! …and I can wait to see this technology out in revenue service.

[@desmondatkinson4642]

A fascinating video, Geoff - many thanks for posting it. Looking behind the scenes on that train showed just what a complex system was needed to power it. They might also want to draw the excess heat from those fuel cells into a heating system for the passenger saloons; that would add further complexity. I can't help but feel, along with many other comments made, that enhancements in battery storage and charging will make such a complex system uneconomic and unnecessary. And of course there is no green hydrogen at present, and the storage and transportation of it is another hurdle to overcome. I think your video was very valuable in helping to show what hydrogen fuel-cell technology really means.

[@timw.8452]

I used to like the class 319's that I commuted on. I hope that the two units that went to France with the first fare-paying passengers - 319008 and 319009 if memory serves - could be preserved, and it's good to see more uses for the class.

[@KGsPhotography]

Great video Geoff. My business supplied all the seating and the large conference tables for those units, good to see them in use. Regards Keith

[@Itsjustesh]

Glad to know this isn't gone even since I've heard of it!

[@WILLIAM-y8t]

Great Video enjoyed that one!!!!!

[@CullenRick]

In my mind I'm imagining this running a test service between Dereham and Norwich - demonstrating the potential of both the train and the much-requested restored rail service.

[@guillaumemaurice3503]

Thank you for the video Geoff it was very very interesting. Very fascinating too! 👍💕

[@leona_devon]

That is really cool, I do hope we can see these, I hope they are the answer to keeping the branch lines open, be great on the Exmouth to Exeter, Okehampton and Barnstaple lines, where services are already exceeding capacity.

[@RailwayWorld_2023]

This is awsome and extremely interesting. Good to see the remaining 319s getting used for something :) I do hope a 319 gets preserved in its original condition though

[@camotech1314]

This is good as a technological exercise but it will never be mainstream...

[@Nooticus]

Really well made video, but Geoff, im pretty surprised that you haven’t responded to ANY of the very valid criticisms of Hydrogen powered trains in the comments. I really valued your unbiased nature but it seems like you are trying to stay on the good side of Porterbrook as opposed to responding to valid criticisms. 8-9 year long dedicated watcher of your channel here :)

[@geofftech2]

because I'm not in a position to respond - i'm merely reporting on this train and am not responsible for it, nor am I a Hydrogen expert! It is Porterbrooks train, and not mine! happy to have the critique in the comments though, I too have found it fascinating to read.

[@Nooticus]

@ thanks for the response, i see now that you have to take it at face value! the only reason i said this is just because i couldn’t see your replies under the top comments as you often do! i hope you know that i meant no harm :)

[@obroni]

Hydrogen vehicle? Oh the humanity!

[@rikufryderyk]

I love it when I open KZbin the very moment Geoff drops a video. Makes the day so much better ❤ the hydrogen trains look cool, didn’t know these are planned to be introduced in the U.K!

[@Unitedfan2013]

Hey! Didn’t u do that dlr video

[@rikufryderyk]

@@Unitedfan2013yeah

[@barryamorris]

Riding around on a bomb! Sounds promising. Bit like the Hindenburg but at much much higher pressures!

[@davidmatthews7876]

Excellent video, very interesting

[@neilburns8869]

Don't really know if you are already aware or not, Geoff. But Scotrail carried out some trials of their own up in Bo'ness some time back (last couple of years) where they also converted what appears to be an ordinary train and ran it back and forward along the Bo'ness branch line. Like your video here in Long Marston - Scotrail were also trying out hydrogen powered trains. The hydrogen fuel cells coming from a company called Arcola who are moving into the old Michelin tyres factory in Dundee in order to produce hydrogen fuel cells. Dundee is the City that has been chosen by the Scottish government for to pursue hydrogen technology. There was some videos on KZbin connected to these issues if you are interested in watching them.

[@lisakaz35]

Very interesting. I was immediately thinking about procedures in case something goes wrong or security features in case idiots try to sabotage it. I guess I'm weird like that.

[@GreenJimll]

ISTR that hydrogen burns with an invisible flame, which might be interesting in the event of a crash/fire.

[@NinjaSurferTrainspotting]

Watch GWR order some and cancel it just before it gets retired... Sound familiar?

[@mattevans4377]

I think after the 769 they would be extremely cautious about anything that uses the 319 plaform

[@NinjaSurferTrainspotting]

​@@mattevans4377definitely... That's probably why the 799 was made - to be a new train that's definitely not a 769

[@ZLDSmogless]

It's so good that they've installed the modern technology but still kept the character of the 319 with the original DC motors and the audible air compressor

[@johnhornblow4347]

36 hydrogen tanks that need to be certified every few years... not cheap but good research project...

[@uhohadam]

You failed to mention you saw dozens of unused 701s sitting at Long Marston.

[@AQUAFONIC]

Which peterbrook own ….. SO ???

[@philmulley59]

There is always a case for looking at alternatives to power a train but this seems like a hard sell. Although hydrogen is energy dense by weight, its very energy light by volume: hence the need to take up a whole carriage to store the amount required. If the train already has a battery why not just cut out the middle man and charge that direct?

[@SwordQuake2]

Trains are a perfect use case for hydrogen. The weight of the storage isn't really an issue and you don't need fuelling stations all over the place. But if you already have electric trains it's a bit useless. Ideal replacement for diesel ones, though.

[@thesloaneranger1]

There was a Class 614 hydrogen train running at Bo'ness Railway - it was scrapped last year.

[@nickclark2278]

It just proves that this is a highly inefficient way to power the train. They’d be better off with battery packs for off wire operation.

[@physiocrat7143]

It would be better value for money to get a fleet of steam locomotives to drag the trains, and bin the electrical equipment.

[@quantisedspace7047]

@@physiocrat7143 This could work. Build up a head of steam using electrical energy when under catenary, and then use that until the next electrified section.

[@physiocrat7143]

@@quantisedspace7047 What would the point? Electricity is not free.

[@PaulSmith-pl7fo]

Hi Geoff. At the time of writing, I haven't followed any of the links you provided. I appreciate that this is still at the development stage, and that the problem of safety has been/will be thought about, but I worry about what would happen to the hydrogen cylinders in the event of an accident!

[@Simon-ui6db]

Bizzare seeing a "319" on diesel tracks but with not diesel engine. Still can't get my head around seeing them outside of the sutton loop or brighton line. (spent many years living in Sutton / Croydon). Then to see the things on the Manchester line a few years ago was like seeing an old friend (even though I prefer the Class 165/166 thames turbo networkers being from Oxford).

[@MsLancer99]

There is one bus operator here in the southeast who was about to go hydrogen powered buses but the Heath & Safety said NO you have got to prove it's all very safe so they can't use the buses

[@DonaldTrumpIsGreat]

Good To See The Class 319s Back 👍

[@michaellittlejohns7968]

Great video Geoff

[@caw25sha]

I've just been reading about these on Wikipedia and it says they are going to move the tanks and fuel cells under the trains so they don't use up carriage space.

[@alangad2007]

Great Vid About The Class 799 Hydrogen Train Mr. Marshall I Like This Train

[@bear6845]

Isn't Hydroflex a Doctor Who baddie.....

[@geofftech2]

i think it was "Hyrdoflax", wasn't it?? ( Goes off to Google .. ha! )

[@Sim0nTrains]

Interesting video, be interesting to see one in passenger service

[@contrapunctusmammalia3993]

gotta say, this is a great comment section - most people seem well informed on the extremely limited future of hydrogen trains. The engineering is impressive but it's fundamentally a distraction from the real solution.

[@phoenixschallert2720]

aside from all the other commenters remarking on the inviability of hydrogen trains, what happens if the fuel coach gets crumpled in a crash? do we really want small Hindenburgs running throughout the country?

[@Thesecret101-te1lm]

It would for sure end up way way worse than say the terrible accident at Santiago de Compostela in Spain a decade ago or so, where a high speed train derailed, and let's just say things turned way worse due to the train carrying diesel fuel rather than being overhead wire powered.

[@colinprincipe6293]

I don’t know when someone gets in a car accident today is it the same level of injury/death as a car accident in 1937? I’m not talking about the way that cars were built back then, but how safe it was for the occupants

[@notthetelephonehogger]

so they just decided the power system and refurbished it, and they slapped on a new name! Very modern for a train built in the 70-80s

[@williamhuang8309]

As always with any of these alternative power trains, they're best used for branch lines. Any route that receives more than a few trains per hour or with trains longer than a single 150 should really be electrified with wires as it's a more efficient system which allows for higher performance trains. Carrying dozens of high pressure hydrogen tanks and batteries makes the train heavier and reduces passenger capacity which isn't great for busy lines, and extra time needs to be allotted for refueling. Converting energy back and forth from electricity to hydrogen then back to electricity is inherently inefficient, and when a train needs to draw a few megawatts of power to accelerate, the energy losses add up.

[@andylinton2798]

Lovely. And great to see the exhaust is water vapour. so no greenhouse gases. But wait - what's the most heating greenhouse gas in the world? Yup, water vapour.

[@joermnyc]

There is an operating Hydrogen train from Montmorency Falls just outside of Quebec City to a few small towns farther east up the St. Lawrence (Train de Charlevoix). It's more of a tourist train though as they only have round trip ticketing available.

[@davejolaurencharlie]

I like the carriage made entirely of "table seats"

[@SteveMikre44]

That's pretty amazing...

[@baldytail]

Still think battery power is likely to be better especially if you can have in track induction charging at each station with batteries at each charging point that can be trickle charged from the grid and local PV. This just adds complexity/cost as you have to source Hydrogen and store it somewhere which I have heard is not that straightforward.

[@GreenJimll]

You don't even need fancy induction charging: just put up short runs of 25KV wires every 10 or 20 miles to do "rapid charging"

[@RussellGi]

There presumably are some limited cases in the North of Scotland where hydrogen trains would be more viable than overhead wires, but outside of this limited use case, the 3 times as much energy being required for electrolysis, all seems to make hydrogen technically interesting, but probably commercially unviable, compared to retaining a small amount of diesel trains on far flung rural routes where conditions may be imperfect and depots may be 100s of miles away.

[@leeanthony2839]

Hey geff loving the videos also just to let u know that the new avanti west coast class 807 have enter service in so looking forward to the video on them

[@Anonymoususer_8823]

The Class 799 Hydroflex train does look pretty impressive. I wonder if other train operators could be interested in inheriting the Class 799 and not scrap the Class 319 and Class 769. What about the Class 768 that is to be used as a logistics parcel express train and to be converted from the Class 319.

[@nickdawson9270]

How the 3+1 car EMU drives is surely less important than the efficiency of the traction system. Sounds like very significant amounts of energy is dissipated as heat, i.e. wasted. Added to that 25% of the original fare paying capacity is lost due to the space taken by the fuel cell plant. With a 400kW lithium battery and 12 cylinders of hydrogen at 300 bar the passengers might hope for an adequate fire suppression system on board too.

[@physiocrat7143]

Interesting to be able to hear the iconic Thameslink hum on a line that is not electrified, but this high tech kit needs to be benchmarked against the alternatives. The money being spent on the research alone would have paid for a small fleet of steam locomotives which would have been well up to the task of hauling a four car train, and if they run on light oil you get clean exhausts and about 25% more power than with coal. The critical temperature of hydrogen is 33 degrees K, which means that it isn't very portable. The fuel tanks seem to be occupying a lot of space.

[@The-SCR-Guy]

I never really liked the 319s, I found them noisy and cramped when they were in mainline use but they sure did pack a lot of character and I'm happy to see them given a new lease of life thanks to Porterbrook's boffins! (also BTW Geoff, I went to Berney Arms last week and I practically retraced your steps entirely by walking to Great Yarmouth from there!)

[@LloydTheGreenNinjago]

The Class 799 is actually an interesting project. I did wish that Thameslink has a chance to use one of these someday in the future. (I know this will never happen) I wonder if the coach supplying power is actually public. I was not surprised that they did nothing with the cab.

[@MarcusL2011]

Geoff, I suggest you to film trains in Japan as there is more than enough trains to hop on but it just cost a bit more money !

[@Timbopearce]

The problem with hydrogen is there are no green production methods. Making hydrogen is INCREDIBLY energy intensive. While this can be done with electrolysis, this consumes a vast amount of electricity that cannot reliably be produced by renewable means. Grid electricity is needed to ensure continuous production and that extra load on the grid can only currently be provided by gas based electric generation.

[@GreenJimll]

There are green production methods, hence "green hydrogen". But that's electrolysis of water using renewable electricity generation, which is perfectly reliable but as you said incredibly energy intensive. The problem is we need the renewable electricity for lots of other things, so the only real advantage of green hydrogen is acting as an energy sink for times when renewable generation supply outstrips Grid demands (middle of the very windy night for example). And that level of green hydrogen production doesn't look like the backbone of a viable fossil fuel free hydrogen economy.

[@thatuktrainguy]

This seems very interesting told my dad about it and he said how do you make a hydrogen train? I guess this is the answer to his question thanks for uploading!

[@roderickmain9697]

You know, the east-wet rail link (ie most of the old varsity line) is about to (re-)open and for some strange reason they didnt electrify it from the get go. Could be the ideal route to try out these reworked units....and its not far away from their test ground.

[@kevinemery8676]

The Train de Charlevoix in Quebec, Canada, has been in service using hydrogen for the past 2 or 3 years now.

[@jamesgilbart2672]

Fascinating video and prospect of the future on the rails. The potential 300 mile range means that refueling will be frequent - I'm wondering what process entails and the safety of it.

[@philipbrailey]

I keep watching this video

[@Danny-mv9qj]

Was lucky enough to do work experience with poeterbrook and got to go on the 799. I think it's a really good proof of concept - we just need it on a newer train with less room taken off!

[@paulburton9386]

I used to like travelling on those to and from Elstree and Borehamwood.

[@southcalder]

I’d say that Hydrogen may have a future for long distance rural diesels. Say the West Highland, Cambrian, Cumbrian Coast. But shorter diesel runs should use batteries and the ultra rapid charging system used on the Greenford branch. This of course is only for areas where there is no business case for OHL. If wires can be strung up, they should be.

[@MrGreatplum]

Very interesting, Geoff. Isn’t the issue with hydrogen that it takes a huge amount of energy to create the hydrogen in the first place?

[@geofftech2]

I ... am not the person to ask! I am not a Hydrogen expert by any means, I'm just fascinated by the train aspect of it.

[@MrGreatplum]

@ - me too :)

[@Drawyah]

Will the Class 319 ever die? Ever other week they've been converted into something else!

[@Luzgar]

Or you could hang a wire over the line. (I know it's expensive to install.)

[@rogerphelps9939]

Less so if you do a lot of it.

[@Thesecret101-te1lm]

@@rogerphelps9939 Especially if a decision is taken to electrify at the pace of a specific amount of workers and machinery, and just let it roll at the speed it does it's thing, rather than starting and stopping projects every now and then, machines getting "rusty", qualified workers ending up getting other jobs and thus having to deal with the need of hiring and teaching new workers every darn time...