Getting Kicks Right - Why your great-sounding kick might NOT be so great

[@Baphometrix]

I wish I could pin multiple comments here but I can't. So I'm pinning this one to list a few comment threads below that I think will be super helpful to everyone. Check the comments started below by S7V7N SEAS, DYOLL, Nova AfterGlow, and Luke Hays. I think they're all useful observations (and discussions) related to this topic. ALSO... (Keep reading!) I've gotten a few comments to the effect of "But in Techno we WANT rumbly kicks!". And that's true! But rumbly techno kicks are made in a special way. They do NOT sound like the "bad" woofy rubbing you hear in this video! A properly-made techno "rumble kick" will sound VERY tight in the same Club emulation in VSX that I'm showing you in this video! I think that Underdog does the best job of explaining how to make rumble kicks for the techno genre. When I listen to ALL of the rumble kicks demonstrated in the following linked video from Underdog through VSX, they sound tight and amazing, but with all that lush rumble groove that techno revolves around. Go watch this video to learn how to get a TIGHT and controlled rumble kick that won't create havoc in the low end at a club. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pYbFcnahmtB9kJo

[@Metafluxx]

I'm pretty sure your right about about those short kicks now.. i think the kicks i was looking at were seamlessly blended with sub bass so that the sub would effectively play and look as kicks tail when it starts up

[@mit136speichenumdiewelt]

This is the best KZbin channel I have found by chance. It's a great pity that you don't make more videos or reply. I would like to learn so much more.

[@evomusicstudios]

Ive been doing this for years using cableguys volume shaper 4, not because I knew about this, just because it sounds better to me when played out. Can confirm, this is great advice

[@leoislo]

Baphy- I just wanted to say thank you for the time taken to make these videos and explain these concepts SO in depth. I'm a very visual learner, and I FINALLY understood the phase-shift and pre-ringing concept. You're an amazing educator.

[@JDKnider]

I discovered this problem about 6 months ago and have been relentlessly changing ALL my kicks. I literally hacked a session together similar to what you are beautifully showing here to prove this to myself last night! Awesome video / description of this problem! I ended up grabbing my Kick library and filtering for the kicks that are short (1/16 at 128-132) and have a new favorites group… Thanks for this great explanation.

[@JDKnider]

I only discovered this problem because a friend with a massive sub system played my tracks and the low end sounded terrible!

[@alinenunez4270]

i had the luck to DJ in big sound system and yes, the kicks sound way different. I knew the problem but you confirm my intuition. as always a masterclass

[@luvolin]

The C2Z Community is getting bigger and bigger! *.* THANKS for your teaching work here.

[@z-boss]

Another way of hearing here on KZbin the pre-ringing and the tail caused by linear phase HPF you describe and demonstrate the comparison of at 37:25 is to slow the video all the way down to x0.25 speed, then it becomes really apparent. In the clean example (the yellow kick) you clearly hear the transient first followed by the subby part, the body of the kick, while in the HPF example (the blue kick) you can clearly hear the pre-ringing that you describe, the cycles start building up before the transient, followed by the smeared and weakened transient itself and you can also hear the oscillations caused by the HPF in the tail end of the kick. Amazing and super helpful video as always, Baphy! I've learned and clarified so much from your videos, can't thank you enough for all the invaluable knowledge you provide! 😊👏👏

[@OdoSendaidokai]

Thanks for showing the WHY doing it that way and not only talking about the how and that one should do it 🌻

[@LostInPresets]

Hi there, I've been off work with covid and spent much of it going through your deep dives and reading the CTZ pages, great stuff thanks!

[@kushtom7108]

I can't thank you enough for the videos I have watched!! every single one I have watched so far has helped me, never skipping a detail and sounding brilliant in the process THANKYOUUUU!!!!!

[@KarmaLaneMusic]

Thank you. The past two weeks I’ve been struggling with this. Was on the same track, you clarified & simplified for me.

[@newguy6935]

Wow! You're getting to be a celebrity now. Just got an email from Eventide with a link to your "Clip-to-Zero using Saturate" KZbin video. Glad to see it. Clip to Zero has really helped me.

[@JDKnider]

I'd also add that when I started correcting for this problem, so well outlined here, I found that my downstream compressors / limiters / effects chains were much more effective. I think its because shortening that kick reduced a bunch of energy that was otherwise triggering / being fed into those later effects. This had a big positive effect on my mixes overall.

[@SebasRom3G]

You can definetly low cut your kick with say natural phase or zero latency mode, further process that kick with clipping/compression/ and then rotate the polarity to get the most punch out of it. Manually aligning the phase of kicks is going to really bring out the punch even more and it fixes the issue of low cutting it simply because when you rotate the polarity you get the 'perfect' or most suited alignment of that kick. I've seen many engineers using plugins like UAD VOG or bx_subfilter which basically do a highpass filter with a fixed Q to add more lows and then they rotate the polarity to get the punch to sound right. As always make sure to reference the low end of your kick with reference tracks to check how further you should go with the LPF. Hope this helps to get your head stuck out of the 'i dont low cut my kick because an engineer told me not to do it' issue. This is still indeed a very interesting video though. Cheers!

[@Baphometrix]

Nice, detailed counterpoint! Thank you for sharing this! (I'll experiment with this too.)

[@TracingFlares]

i took very useful information out of this... although i see many huge points are missing. I havent found any body that really really explains the whole package.. and i give you a hint: yes kickdrums can be really long and still sound great on big venues. Further: the kick you use in your examples lacks Transient😊 anotherthing is that you need to know generally about mixing😅 otherwise you will not get far even with the best kick of the world. You guys in KZbin always explain things top down tecnically... and thats the reason many many users do not get rhis right even after watching hundreds of kick videos. But you did your part and thank you😊

[@niicolondon]

I’m nearly caught up! I’ve heard nothing but your voice for 2 days 😂

[@dyoll3012]

I would like to say this video is great and and I have taken a lot of tips onboard but… I wouldn’t agree with you when you say this is the right way for all dance music. I make techno and this exact subby woofy effect from a kick is what satisfies us. Some techno tracks are just all woof with basically no transient. The problem with techno is people think the longer the kick the better, in this video you show how important it is to consider the length of your kick and how it relates to the type of track your going for.

[@Baphometrix]

That's a fair point! In dance music there are some songs (and entire genres like techno) where you might choose for the extreme low end "sub" of the song to come from the kick itself, while the subs (or subby parts of the mid basses) sits much higher in the sub range and low bass range. You have to decide which one will "own" the low sub range, the bottom end of the song. It rarely works for the kick and subs to try to share the low sub range. Even so... as you point out... if you want your kick to own the low subs, there's still a balance point, a sweet spot, where your kick needs to sit in terms of that woofy "rub" on the tail. A little might work fine. But too much and you steal all the available space for any real bouncy interplay and groove with your bass sounds.

[@Baphometrix]

Also be sure to check the pinned comment here (which I just updated). That lush "rumble kick" sound in techno is created in a very specific way that sounds **great** in Slate VSX. When you make a rumble kick the right way, it's a very different result in a club space than the "bad" woofy rub you hear demonstrated in this video. Underdog made a great tutorial a few months ago on how to create techno rumble kicks. Every rumble kick in that video sounds VERY tight (with with that lush rumble sidechain bounce) in the Club emulation in Slate VSX. You can find the link to Underdog's video up in the pinned comment here.

[@ELLIOT8209]

@@Baphometrix hi baph, may you please do a review of the new Acustica Audio clipper plugin called Fire The Clip.

[@GMRecording]

Great video as always, envelopes would be my go to on kicks but if I have to use a HPF then I normally go Linear Phase, what I normally do is apply the cut then render it to audio, I would then edit out the pre-ringing and use the edited kick going forward, it's the best of both worlds.

[@NeZversSounds]

Thank you, this made it klick for me. I've been doing a combo approach for electronic music - shorten then adjust in EQ. In general, I mix more metal music but this knowledge still carries weight.

[@Nova_Afterglow]

It’s wild just how well I could visualize the kick with VSX on, even though I’m listening on my stock tv speakers. With VSX off I couldn’t hear it. Once you did the kick reveal it was exactly how I pictured it. I have a pack of kicks that has those tight, round ones in every note. They have become my favorite as of late. The pack is Yalcin’s Peak Time Techno Kicks. The pack is my go to for nice, short kicks that work very well out of the box. Not sponsored, just spreading the word on how I got my sauciest kicks. I think this video really speaks to the power of VSX for mixing. If it can turn my tv into a viable mixing monitor, I’m sure with the actual headphones everything becomes clear.

[@stefancompaneet7605]

Could you help a (poor) fellow producer and send them to me? I know Yalcin makes quality stuff

[@Nova_Afterglow]

@@stefancompaneet7605 I can’t undercut Yalcin like that. Save up for his pack, but in the mean time, do what Baphy suggests and just shorten your favorite kicks manually. 😁

[@cuevable]

The voice effect to describe the bouncy tail my my day :)

[@AnthonyHuttley]

Very very very helpful stuff. Thank you so much for making all these vids Baphy. You have literally changed my life.

[@effervescent_musiq]

This is brilliant you need to do a masterclass on claps and percussion instruments

[@Projektor_music]

I've seen a few comments on techno kicks but there is this fun thing we do in psytrance where the kick and sub are intentionally separated. Looking at a psytrance kick drum you will see a transient that is very loud then the mid range is toned down quite a lot in volume and then the volume comes back up for the final sub of the kick. Also the sub lasts for an 1/8th note and is loud all the way through. the second 1/8th part of the beat is where the sub of the bass lives. Looking at the waveform of your average psytrance track (a good professional example is "Deep Jungle Walk" by Astrix) you can see that the sub basically constantly. Is this a problem according to this? I think part of this is due to the fact that psytrance is most commonly played in open spaces. Although from going to clubs in Budapest I can tell that the kicks also work well in clubs (at least the 2 I went to).

[@Baphometrix]

The problem I demonstrate in this video tends to happen on kicks that are built to have a fairly long-ish pitch drop right after the transient, before the pitch drop finally settles out into the real sub "tone" of the kick tail. Pystrance kicks like you describe tend to have that sub portion be a single persistent pitch. Kicks like this (or any kick that doesn't use too much pitch drop) tend to sound just fine in a big reverberant environment even if the kick tail is fairly long. Another way to think of it is that psytrance kicks aren't really "kicks" in the typical sense. They're more like a knocky transient followed immediately by a sub note.

[@andymcbain5441]

@@Baphometrix sometimes, though many psy kicks continuously fall in pitch and there are good arguments for doing it this way - as outlined in this futurephonic vid :) kzbin.info/www/bejne/pGTXnph5nddqm8U

[@LawrenceAaronLuther]

36:38 one of the best, if not the best, impressions of a sound that makes every pet owner shudder

[@elmosputterspark9939]

Catz ‘N Dogz feat. ZenSoFly - Can't Stand (Robag Wruhme´s 'Flodder Bukk' Rehand)

[@cottoo1]

Will watch it later, excellent topic. Thanks

[@omapots]

Great video! Constructive and honest, which I very much appreciate.

[@UncleC1025]

All's right in the world each time the new baphy drops!

[@kalisblack2022]

Just a thought... Placing a linear phase high pass on the kick, but then volume shaping the pre-ring sub out, and then printing the new kick to use as your kick could be an option. I do hear the pre-ring, but it seems that this is a fixable problem easily with today's quick envelope shaping abilities and resampling abilities. In Ableton, an alternative to this, which is easily done, can avoid volume shaping altogether by placing the sampled linear-phased kick into a Simpler, and then changing the start position of the kick a few ms forward so your kick sample starts after the pre-ring. I live somewhere in the middle of the options you discuss here. This is my thought... I always volume-envelope shape my kicks to some degree. You need to control your kick with a volume envelope for your track because each track can be a different tempo, and you hands down should know that your kick isn't taking up half of your beat unless you're making Hardstyle. However, I sometimes throw a hi-pass on my kicks simple because, why not? If it does phase shift and still sound good, and I know that my kick already isn't that long, it will be fine, as long as it sounds good with the bass frequencies in mono, which is an easy check. So I agree, you can get away with any of these combinations, it just depends on your scenario. I know I'm basically agreeing with a lot of what you said in my response, but that's my way of explaining it. Great video, Baphy.

[@Baphometrix]

Its a technique that can mitigate the problem in certain specific cases. But remember, that pre-ringing is happening all throughout the span of a given waveform. It's not isolated to some extra little blip that's tacked onto the front of the waveform. You've got this shifted frequency running all throughout the waveform's duration. You just can't see it because it's merged into the bulk of the waveform.

[@kalisblack2022]

@@Baphometrix I understand what you're saying, but even though it's running the span of the waveform, the blip attached to the front of the waveform is the only musically unfavorable part of the linear phase typically, ya?

[@dennisblaul7228]

@@kalisblack2022I’d say no. Try the same thing on your master bus. Then listen to it before and after. You can hear that the whole sound become blurred like everything is a bit less snappy. Same thing that the kick is now. Yes you got rid of low rumble. (Which you can find a better kick that doesn’t have that) but the kick is less snappy. And detailed. The low end is blurry a bit and the transient.

[@chuckwick5034]

Thank you for making these videos

[@jasonherdmusic]

Hey @baphometrix, your course is awesome in everyway. As someone who has over 25 year in the industry I relate to your well presented videos and mix very similarly but I will be trying your CTZ theory on multiple genres and I have a feeling I may be adapting it to my production and mixing process if it works for me! I have a question. Isn't the club vsx based on an empty club and a little misleading and reverberant? I have ordered them on a trial after watching your course as a “reference” tool. I have a great treated room, LCD-x and Dutch 8c so not 100% sold on spending £500 but always looking to improve! I also love the Space Control, thank you for bring my attention to this!

[@wagnerdarts]

Hey Jason, did you keep the VSX in the end? Curious to know

[@MrSoyChico]

this is probably one of my first ever comments, baphometrix your videos are amazing!

[@isaac10231]

In my circuits class in uni we had a section on RLC circuits, low pass filters, high pass filters, Butterworth, Chebyshev, in quite a fair amount of detail. I was intrigued but thought it was a bit useless cause I was studying civil engineering. But I'm pretty happy I did end up studying it - it's not that useful for music production but it is enlightening every so often when going to look into music production under a microscope, kinda in the way you do it, I'll remember a thing or two about why filters act the way they do and whatnot and it'll be satisfying.

[@AxeMask]

It's interesting you say that because I recently came across Robin Schmidt's music engineering tools - more specifically his free ToolChain vst. There's a bunch of great tools in it and more specifically, I was reading a mastering article and someone mentioned the 'Engineers Filter' and recommended a chebychev low cut at around 20hz with a fairly high Q value. This made me pretty interested as I never even heard of a chebychev filter before but the Engineers Filter has Bessel, Butterworth, Chebychev I and II, elliptic, and Papoulis filters. This made me a little more interested in learning about filters on a deeper level and luckily, the rs-met website provides some slightly more advanced information in terms of theory / dsp implementation on these filters under the tutorials section. As far as the validity of a chebychev low cut at 20hz on the master - I'm not sure how 'correct' this information is but in the article I was reading they said it's the filtering method that deadmau5 uses on his masters but I couldn't find any confirmation on this fact either. Still interesting though.

[@Imperceptible_parachute]

Great, practical insights. Interesting too. Thanks!

[@whothisbuddhist]

this is wonderful information. wow. a high pass filter literally changes the pitch of a kick. i assume up, but its fake pitch as its just losing the low frequencies so it appears to be "higher," and the same for lowpass. what an illusion. at 26:07 its being shrunk. thank you baphometrix.

[@Tschiyeah]

Hey! Since watching your outstanding videos I realized that a proper oscilloscope is a MUST-HAVE. Polyscope is super fantastic with it's features of layers etc; unfortunately I'm running on MAC and so I wondered which Oscilloscope you'd recommend? Logic's stock Image-Tools kind of lacking proper features like Polyscope in my eyes.. Thanks in advance to anyone answering this (hopefully Baphy LOL)! Keep up this community! Cheers!

[@Baphometrix]

The only similar scope for Mac is Oszillos Megascope. It's missing the "Sum" feature of Psyscope Pro, but otherwise it gives you everything you need. You can always check the sum of several signals by muting/soloing tracks and placing the scope on the bus where those signals first sum together.

[@Tschiyeah]

@@Baphometrix Thanks!

[@chriswftdj]

Here we go!

[@SoundAuthor]

I never thought to use a room emulator for this. VSX is a bit spendy. I suppose I can use a convolution plugin and search for some "club" IRs.

[@infinaneek]

Another great video

[@nathanhyatt]

Great info! I assume you could also use a Gate (instead of drawing in gain automation) on the Kick to shorten it too. Just in case that option is easier in your workflow. Or would that not be sufficient?

[@Baphometrix]

IMO a gate wouldn't be "surgical" enough. Just tiny differences in the envelope shape can greatly affect the overall sound and timbre and behavior of the kick.

[@nathanhyatt]

@@Baphometrix Thanks for the reply. You're right! I tried a gate but it doesn't work the same way. Gain automation it is!

[@JaKunaMusic]

As an edm producer, I had to learn this the hard way. Took me couple years to figure out what was wrong with my tracks... It was just to shorten that mf kick...

[@galbh2]

Amazing content, Thank you very much!

[@totothedog8830]

Love your content so much

[@schmapps1]

Question: So, if you shorten your kick as shown to make it sound as good as possible in a club environment - does this not mean that your kick will sound clicky and thin on most people's home stereos and headphones? And all the more 'normal' listening environments? Is this just a trade-off you must accept? Or - do you actually find yourself making two separate mixes - one for clubs, and one for all other listening environments?

[@Baphometrix]

Never two separate mixes/masters. One master to rule them all. If you pay attention to a lot of dance music styles, you'll notice the kicks themselves tend to be knocky, and any heavy bottom end that *seems* like it's coming from the kick itself is often coming from a sub that's layering with (and sidechained to) the kick.

[@VincentBrick]

Money better spent on VSX or plugins? My room will never be good, near a highway and airport (also hearing is trashed), but I also can't find any free clippers or saturators that sound good on my master bus. These videos have been huge, thank you.

[@RasShango]

Nice intro. Still loving the content 💯

[@teknobryan]

Baphy, what is the difference between a "long kick" with the tail is low F note, VS. having a "short kick" and then adding the low F with a synth, and making sure the waves are in phase, and fade correctly.

[@Baphometrix]

The difference is is that when you blend a short knocky kick with a short, medium, or even long sub note, the sub note itself is a constant, clean sine wave. What causes the "woofy rubbing" sound in this video is the long pitch drop in that particular kick, and the way the reflections a large club space tend to cause the close-yet-different pitches of the subby tail portion to phase with each other in an ugly-sounding way as the reflections interact. But but a constant-pitch sine wave (as in a typical sub sound) doesn't do make that woofy rub. Sure, you might get some standing waves and in certain parts of the room the sub will be less loud/powerful sounding than in other parts of the room, but you won't hear that ugly rubbing.

[@adampeters9684]

VSX fukn rules, thanks for the rec Baphy 🙏🏼

[@pierbover]

It's a great trick. I guess any convolution reverb with a large space would probably work too.

[@Baphometrix]

Maybe so! haven't had a chance to experiment, though.

[@jonoaerts]

Great explanation 🔥

[@strangerting7818]

This video is fucking IMMENSE. Wow! Questions: why does the power of a kick come from the transients? And what frequency range does transients usually belong to? Also, why do industrial techno producers like using kicks with a long tail and does it work in your opinion?

[@Baphometrix]

Check the pinned comment for an explanation about techno kicks that should answer your question. I don't know why KZbin keeps unpinning it for some reason?

[@lytona855]

Waves creative access comes with the Abbey Road Studio 3 plugin where the far field monitoring setting can give you a good idea of how it sounds in a club setting And waves creative access is only $24.99/mo for all of their plugins so it is a great budget option for those who don't have access to a club or a club emulation

[@serenitybase9888]

avoid ANY waves plug ins that are analog.

[@soundbeasttv]

Brilliant video! Got a question though. Instead of using a HPF could you just use a low shell instead and go as low as you can?

[@Baphometrix]

In general, using a low shelf to control the relative "ownership" of the low end by your kick and sub (or subby basses) is almost always better than using an HPF down there. Why? Because a low shelf will incur less overall phase shift. There's a really good recent video by Underdog about this. But about the specific problem this video highlights (kicks with a prominent pitch drop that are also too long, causing a type of woofy "rub" because of the way the pitch drop and the sustained tail interact in the reflections in a large club space), IMO it's still preferrable to simply reshape and shorten the decay envelope of the kick. Here's that Underdog video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g6S3kKygpZqepqs

[@prodbyowls]

insane man! Thank u so much for all the infomartion! 🔥🔥🔥

[@larkhallpaul9381]

Hi Baphy, wondered if you thought the F9 Kicks sample pack had the kind of high quality kick tails you were on about in this video? Huge fan of the content btw, insanely detailed and well taught so thank u :)

[@nikolaudio]

I’m curious of your opinion of Waves’ sub align plugin. You set a crossover in which you declare the sub region, bandsplitting the signal, and then you have a delay parameter where you can either delay the sub region later or earlier in time. Wondering if you think it’d be useful for certain cases

[@Baphometrix]

Maybe? I'm not a huge fan of Waves or their stuff, in general. I don't have experience with that particular plugin.

[@KevKruz]

Awesome vid. Right on.

[@cmsmithmusic]

Spoiler alert!🚨 use a volume/gain envelope to make your kicks shorter!

[@djlokho]

dude this is the video I have been looking for! My kicks always sound good in headphones/monitors but when it comes to my car, the kicks are so boomy it makes everything rattle and I couldn't figure out how to fix it. I noticed some producers like Josh Butler have been able to use a longer kick (~1/8 note length) and still minimize that nasty sub-woof effect. Any advice or insight on how that is possible?

[@Baphometrix]

Read some of the other comments in this thread where people are talking about techno kicks. Yes, you can make a long kick or even a "rumble" kick, but it has to be done a certain way.

[@JDKnider]

Hilariously - Yacin Elfie just did a video on kicks from House and Techno and it’s spot on for this idea, just from a totally different angle. With Baph’s permission - I can post the link.

[@Baphometrix]

Sure! I'd be interested to see Yalcin's take. I watch a lot of their stuff.

[@JDKnider]

@@Baphometrix kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHWroGqFhtWDjtU

[@JDKnider]

@@Baphometrix I love the approach he took here. As if he were responding to your very chat - he did both Techno Kicks and Prog House kicks.

[@AuroraBPolaris]

Hey Baphy, I was wondering whether you had or knew of a discord with like-minded engineers and producers, I'd love to share more and have a deeper insight with you and the rest of the people!

[@Baphometrix]

Here's an invite link to my VERY SMALL discord. The invite will be good for 7 days from now. discord.gg/s3gbkDfc

[@809rdl]

@@Baphometrix can I use this? Im your student ; i have seen all your videos long before the loudnedd playlist.

[@Baphometrix]

@@809rdl Of course!

[@bloozerd]

Not sure what point you're making with the VSX...?...I have VSX and, as you know, it's intended to be used with the headphones on the system output to be any good at all...But if you're just trying to make the "flubby" point, it works...!!!

[@VincentBrick]

Yeah he's using it to demonstrate, it does seem to work well for that purpose.

[@nicolasblume1046]

Could you explain how trance Kicks work?

[@Reggi_Sample]

Does the fact that that kick seems to swell long after the transient in the body before actually going into a tail contribute to the woofing in the vsx environment? Problem with a lot of my kicks they are too long and already heavily clipped

[@JDKnider]

For the linear phase pre-ring problem - if you just re-sample the kick and crop it to the zero crossings at the exact transient, wouldn’t that fix the problem?

[@JDKnider]

Of course - I think you guidance on the solution is best and is where I landed when I did this analysis over the last 6 months

[@00bdbr]

Thanks for the great video! I imagine this approach isn't really relevant to dance music with purposely long kicks. I listen to a lot of tracks with long 808s and just generally kicks/low frequency hits which derive their sound characteristic from their tail. What kick mixing considerations are important for doing that? / What are your thoughts on it?

[@Baphometrix]

808s are a different story entirely. They're really just sub-basses with a (typically) dark, relatively mellow transient tacked onto the front end. I don't consider 808s to be kicks at all. In Trap genres, the only real "anchor" sound is the snare. (But the 808 itself is of course one of the "framework" sounds for your mix. Techno kicks are the ones that can break the rules/concepts/ideas in this video KINDA-SORTA. Just making a longer kick does not IMO make it a **good** techno kick, because you can still run into this gritty-sounding problem in a real club space. There ARE ways to build a dark, long "rumble" kick without it having this problem. If you look through other comments in this video that mention "techno" kicks, you'll see my thoughts on this.

[@00bdbr]

@@Baphometrix Sounds good thanks for the info :)

[@lito4900]

Great channel love your content!

[@GermoStaalfeldt]

it really depends on genre isn't that? some genre longer kicks shorter bass between kick, and with longe bass notes shorter kicks?

[@ViktorNova]

Amazing...thank you.

[@spitefulcrow5026]

wow thanks for this!

[@GizzyDillespee]

I don't make dance music but this is interesting. This is why I hate modern dance music kicks thru headphones and small speakers without sub. I heard the separation between click and boom right away thru some bassy hp. I actually like distortion, a lot, but the timing of the separation and the clean/distorted juxtaposition just made the long version of the kick (red version) sound bad no matter what. You could have a shorter kick sidechaining the longer kick's tail. Instead of always clkooomp clkoooomp clkooooomph clkoooooomph all the time. Hopefully there will be a technological innovation that will make club kicks sound good at home and vice versa, but without instigating a neighbor vendetta. I don't mean like Slate, for mixing, but I mean for listening in general. Maybe if we make sheetrock that just absorbs most sound. Then everyone can shut their windows and blast subwoofers. If I do decide to make dance music for playing in actual clubs, I'll binge your channel for sure.

[@GizzyDillespee]

And that pitch change you get with a HPF... that happens whenever you reduce or amplify a sound's partials with a tilt towards either higher or lower frequencies. EQ, or any filter, can be seen as crude additive synthesis if you're going to normalize the levels again afterwards. A compressor with gain bringing up lower amplitude partials can change apparent pitch too.

[@n.shostakovich8248]

Dear baph, how do you view the problem with kick-length in regard to genres with generally longer kicks like hardcore, hard techno or hardstyle? they are pretty much part of those styles

[@Baphometrix]

Techno rumble kicks can be made (and should be made) in a way that doesn't do what I demonstrate in this video. If you make a rumble kick the way Oscar demonstrates in this video, you won't hear the problem I demonstrate in the video. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pYbFcnahmtB9kJo As for hardstyle kicks, IMO most of their distorted crunchy tail is higher up in the midrange where you won't get the kind of reverberant phasing you get from a deep kick with a long pitch drop and a too-long siney tail. In the end, you have to either test your kicks in a real club space or in an emulation like VSX to know for sure what it's going to do. Or just play it safe and go for short and knocky kicks.

[@defusedninja4334]

can i ask where to get those kick samples you used in the video? Is it a sample pack u got with similar kicks?

[@AxeMask]

Hey Baphy, do you have any recommendations for cheaper alternative mix room emulation plugins? For example: Abbey Road Studio 3, CLA Nx, or Acoustica Sienna? Obviously these plugins are vastly inferior to VSX in terms of environment emulations but have you tried / would you recommend any of these to a bedroom producer who solely uses headphones to mix? Thanks for the great content - as always!

[@Baphometrix]

I honestly haven't tried any of the others. The Slate system appealed to me because they sell it with matched headphones. So the models will sound as the designers intended. So I can't really say whether NX or Abbey Road, etc. can emulate this type of low end problem in typical club environments.

[@AxeMask]

@@Baphometrix That's what I figured. I doubt these plugins would be anywhere near Slate as they typically emulate mix rooms as opposed to club environments and are pretty much limited to one room. I was just thinking that maybe it would be good to reference this issue in a different environment - especially as someone who doesn't even have near field monitors. Thanks for your reply ❤

[@michieljansen648]

I really like Sienna, they have some clubs as well. It’s a different technology, not an emulation but they’ve actually sampled different rooms. Inherent to the technology it uses more cpu and adds some latency, but it’s a great tool imho.

[@AxeMask]

@@michieljansen648 Oh! That makes me a little more interested. I was under the impression that Sienna was limited to one room like the other ones I mentioned. I fiddled with Abbey Road Studios a little bit so I was aware of the CPU usage but I didn't know that it wasn't an emulation. Thank you!

[@Baphometrix]

@@michieljansen648 I've heard a few people mention Sienna. One day I'll check it out myself!

[@flolepruneau7835]

Hi Baphometrix, So how should we do when the music style needs a long kick ? I'm not talking about rumbly but long kick like in Acidcore, Hardcore for example ? Kicks are often made from 909 kicks put through distortion !

[@Baphometrix]

Honestly I'm the wrong person to ask, lol. I really dislike the sound of hardcore kicks, and therefore hardcore in general. You have to consider that I was a funk and jazz (and rock) drummer (and bass player) for decades, so I have ideas about how a kick should "sound". If the genre calls for incredibly distorted, rubbery kicks, then you just go with the flow. 🙂

[@flolepruneau7835]

@@Baphometrix haha okay, thanks for your answer, anyway the video is a masterclass, like all of yours! Thank you for the content 🎛️

[@risukual]

Baph, regarding the kicks, is it natural for the waveform of the attack (the click) of the kick to be different each time it hits? I remember a video mentioning random phase in sub basses and I wonder if this is an issue for kicks or if it's a natural thing.

[@Baphometrix]

It won't be different unless you're modulating the start point of the kick sample somehow.

[@risukual]

@@Baphometrix the kicks aren't modulated in anyway though, so i'm also kinda confused however it's a very subtle thing and unnoticable for the most part, i'm just concerned if the timbre of the kick (i'm using kick samples) would somehow be affected by it.

[@Baphometrix]

@@risukual If the kick (or the sub... or any other sound that happens along with the kick itself) sounds **different** from kick to kick, that's a phasing/masking issue with those other sounds interacting with the kick.

[@18Hands]

@@risukual Try flipping the phase of the your kick using some kind of utility and see if that fixes it. Sometimes just shorten the kick or see how many ms your kick is and make your sidechain to be ducking on the same ms or even a little more. I havent felt the need to make my kicks any longer than 100ms in the style of music I produce, but it may be different for you. You can also alter the phase of your sub harmonics if it has upper harmonics anyway. You will definitely need some kind of visual referencer so you can see how the phases are interacting. Depending on what you use for sidechain, there could also be some kind of latency causing your kicks to sound different . This is a big problem in LFO Tool I've found, unless you use the delay compensation which is tricky to really dial in.

[@18Hands]

Oh and one more thing I just remembered. If your sidechain device is making any click or pop, then that little sound will cause some funky shit to happen. So you may want to see if your sidechain is smooth when you solo the sub.

[@wojtek987]

At ~26:00 you said (after highpassing) that the pitch of the kick changed and the peaks are squashed towards the middle of where the center (timewise) of the original kick sample would be. Is that a coincidence or will the kick waveform always shift towards the middle of the original? How would an eq know in advance where the center is?

[@Baphometrix]

Kinda coincidence and kinda not. You're filtering out extreme lows, so the low frequencies in the kick will shift to slightly higher frequencies. This moves much of the kick's waveforms leftward (shorter). But frequencies above the knee of the HPF are also being affected, quite far up the spectrum to around 1-2 Khz. They're on the **other** side of the massive 180-degree phase shift near the knee of the filter. So they're shifting in the opposite direction ever so slightly.

[@trilogymusic5567]

Hi, Baphy! I have a question: My song is in D. My Kick is in D. My Bass/Sub/808 is in D too, but sometimes is on another note when the kick is still in D. Should I play the Kick in the same note so the frequencies align? Is kind a problem for my sidechain. When they both (kick and bass) playing in the same note, the sidechain is smooth. When they are some notes away, the sidechain is not good at all.

[@henrywolf5332]

Hopefully baph chimes in but as far as I know from watching is that you have to tweak the volume shaping curve for every note to blend them. Since the kick is being blended with not just the D, but also the other notes your sub is hitting. So keep the same kick but repeat the steps of blending the sub and kick together with the new notes so on your other notes you will need to find different volume shaping curves that apply the correct volume curve to the correct note. You can sample that blend and put it in on audio so you have the sub and kick already blended or just use different triggers to activate different volume shapers/duck/ shaperbox

[@Baphometrix]

Unless you're doing techno, you typically want the sub to "own" the lowest parts of the sub region, and you want the kick to be pitched higher in the sub region. You can make them both equally own the sub range (same note) usually only in songs where you don't use a melodic sub line. If you have a melodic sub line, it's usually better to pick a kick whose pitch lands more like a 4th, 5th or 6th above the root of the song key. When you do this, the phase interference between the sub and the kick is.... normal and not anything to worry about.

[@trilogymusic5567]

@@Baphometrix Genius!💚

[@da4mula885]

Can you show, Where I can find that Dawnwall Video? I couldn't find it, but was curious about him before

[@drydessert4198]

dan worrall

[@da4mula885]

@@drydessert4198 oh lmaoo

[@harmonicalessons]

Baphy, my posts keep disappearing from the comments. I was trying to help a commenter with a Mac related problem, but I've tried many times on different days and they don't stick.

[@harmonicalessons]

I just tried again to paste the comment for nanaban (from Epi. 21) to help him out with his Mac problem, but it was deleted again immediately. Either you or YT must be blocking certain words, but there's isn't anything unusual about the words in my post. Let me see if this comment sticks.

[@harmonicalessons]

I tried once more to reply to nanaban on Epi. 21 and it seemed to stick. I still can't figure out what word from my original post was causing the blocking. Long story short, he downloaded the wrong meter plugin for his model of Mac.

[@Baphometrix]

I'm not sure what's going on. I only delete toxic sludge comments, which are very rare. I've notice KZbin keep unpinning my pinned comment here too, so... I think there's currently some bugginess going on with KZbin? Sorry you're being frustrated.

[@NathanBrown-dk5wh]

You reckon with a subwoofer I would be able to hear all of this?? Is a worth getting a subwoofer if I have a 5inch speakers?

[@Baphometrix]

A subwoofer won't help much unless you also treat the room. By the time you're done buying the subwoofer and the room treatment, you'll still only be able to hear accurately down to about 40 Hz, but not much lower than that. Honestly, you get there faster and cheaper by investing in good headphones that are known for letting you hear low end down to about 30 Hz. They don't have to be that expensive, either. Sennheiser HD-650 and Beyerdynamic DT-770 are two that jump to mind, but there are a few others in that price range that are also strong. Here's a video that explains the problem with acoustics in our typical home studios: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eZTZqYWJe9elaac

[@fex2626]

I often struggle with kick and 808 for the following: when i get a good balance of attack knock and thump and then i losten to a different volume what happens is that the balance gets lost: e.g. at lower volumes or laptop speakers i loose the depth, while at higher volumes i loose attack. How can i make it better?

[@Baphometrix]

That's because the mechanics of our ears/brain are affected by Fletcher-Munson response. At lower listening levels, we hear the midrange better, and our perception of the low end and high end is greatly suppressed. But at higher listening levels (like in a Club), we hear the low end and high end better, and our perception of the midrange is suppressed. So for example if you make dance music (whose primary use case is to be heard at loud volumes in club environments), you have to design your spectral balance to fit the Fletcher-Munson response of a loud listening level. For example, if you make your subs and highs sound really good in your studio at a quiet mixing/monitoring level, you might discover that the lows and highs feel WAY too loud when that song is actually played in a club. As another example, if you're producing an alternative rock song, that's only ever going to be listened to at fairly low, comfortable listening levels. And never played on a huge club system. So you have to design your spectral balance to fit the Fletcher-Munson response of a relatively low, comfortable listening level. Which means you'll be very careful about not overloading the midrange (especially the low mids), and you'll probably be boosting the subs and highs a bit more than you would for a dance music track.

[@NewWebDesign]

really great!

[@knoerdklokibril]

hey, do you also not recommend to HP a snare for the same reasons as this video?

[@Baphometrix]

It kinda depends on how low and beefy and loud the body "thonk" of the snare is. And where exactly you're putting the knee of the filter. Generally speaking, the farther you get away from the sub and low bass region, the "safer" a pass filter becomes.

[@helina-keijo9561]

What if you use linear phase hpf and then resample kick and cut pre ringing out? Ofc it is better to make them shorter in the source but theoretically 😎?

[@Baphometrix]

That might work, but pre-ringing is tricky. That same low sub extending out to the left of the transient portion of the kick? It's hiding underneath the transient portion itself too. Which of course is masked entirely by the huge energy of the transient itself. But it's something to consider. The most transparent result is always to simply reshape the length and decay shape of the kick.

[@helina-keijo9561]

Got it now clearly ✌️ nice series.

[@vogelvogeltje]

Hey baph, have you heard of gqom? It’s like a style of electronic music out of Africa, very distorted and unpolished, but it’s grown into being part of the genre…how do you feel about that?

[@Baphometrix]

I'm not familiar with that subgenre. Post a link to a typical song on KZbin?

[@vogelvogeltje]

@@Baphometrix (song 1/distorted kicks) kzbin.info/www/bejne/o4vUnZ2KnryEnKM (Song 2/bass+woofy kick/my favorite atm) kzbin.info/www/bejne/o6HGYXSaaNCnbsU The kick drums are distorted, the basses are distorted, you can for sure hear some “pumping” from a limiter… but it still SLAPS!! It doesn’t make sense!

[@vogelvogeltje]

@@Baphometrix Did you ever get to listen to those 2 songs at all? i thought it was really weird that what some would call "bad mixing" would become a beloved part of a genre.

[@jvedra9041]

you can use both.

[@brianmartin7710]

what DAW is this?

[@Baphometrix]

Bitwig Studio

[@Skyefaux]

the best one

[@alex.nadiradze]

Hi! What alternative vst can give similar result as Club emulation mode in VSX?

[@Baphometrix]

The only other alternative is called "Sienna" by Acustica Audio. But you'd have to buy the base package, plus one specific expansion package that has two Italian club emulations in it. The total cost would be about half of what you'd pay for the VSX system.

[@Noldy__]

@@Baphometrix I have the Waves Nx - Virtual Mix. Could it work the same?

[@Riebenfeld]

i use "Realphones" by dSonic hope this helps

[@absinthe__]

Hi, There are some free or cheaper alternatives to vsx? Like some emulator that can simulate a club system? (Not Sierra)

[@Baphometrix]

VSX and Sienna are pretty much it for any type of club emulation, AFAIK.

[@absinthe__]

@@Baphometrix where i can buy vsx?

[@Baphometrix]

@@absinthe__ Search for "Slate VSX"

[@romanmark]

Try Beyerdynamic Virtual Studio, it's free. But use preset CAR, not CLUB.

[@coliny7027]

Does the ableton reverb preset 'empty club' count as a decent alternative to the $500 vsx club simulator? lmao

[@Baphometrix]

Not really? There's a little more going on under the hood in VSX than reverb.😉

[@Zvrra]

Is there soemthing we can use instead VSX?

[@Baphometrix]

I've heard a few people say good things about Sienna, which also has some club emulations. I have NOT used it myself, though, so I can't offer any opinion of my own. www.sienna.studio

[@ViktorNova]

@@Baphometrix Yes Sienna is awesome and legit! The advantage over VSX is that they support tons of headphones (even some very cheap ones). Sienna has a kind of confusing licensing structure, and to get the club emulation you need to purchase the base Sienna plugin (called Volume A) AND Sienne Volume E, which is an addon pack that includes 2 different club models from different positions in the rooms. BTW Sienna also has a free version that is pretty amazing - it doesn't have as many options (and no club room) but the one room it comes with is really good, and the headphone correction curves make it reasonably possible to mix on most headphones with good results

[@ViktorNova]

I imagine the right type of room reverb would reveal this problem in a similar way.. right?

[@Baphometrix]

@@ViktorNova No... there are a lot of other factors at play in those emulations. Not just reverb.

[@GeorgeLocke]

Dude, you made your point like two years ago very on with it

[@ove1312]

Regarding to hp the kick ,after the process what happens if you adjust the startpoint to get rid of that sinewave created by the liniar phase at the begining and the rumbling tail? Isn't that a solution?

[@kimjunkmoon2298]

Yes, but then you're editing the kick anyways. Plus, if you remove that tail too, then why did you even bother with the highpass? If you zero latency highpass the kick and make it sound different, then bounce and edit it, sure, that's a viable way to tweak the tone of your kick, but if you're trying to clean it up with a linear phase eq and still have to manually edit it, then what's the point of the eq?

[@producermind9030]

Are u still using slate VSX?

[@Baphometrix]

Yep. Love it.

[@darotm7628]

@@Baphometrix are there any vst alternatives?

[@Baphometrix]

@@darotm7628 VSX *is* a vst, but if you mean alternatives that don't also come with matched hardware headphones, sure. There's "Sienna" by Acustica Audio, and there's Waves NX.

[@kiko8u]

WOOHOO!

[@chaoticcharacter6765]

woooooo!

[@ambientsounds1416]

I'd prefer the reverberating kick with that phasing after the initial click. Makes speakers go out then in.

[@serhiytorba]

47 minutes about so simple things that could fit into 5 minutes... very interesting and useful content but in veeeeeery long form with an infinite number of repeating the same things. Thanks anyway!