Getting Sore = An EFFECTIVE Workout? (Science Explained)

Рет қаралды 14,445

Ай бұрын

In this video Dr Milo Wolf discusses the most up to date literature surrounding post-workout muscle soreness and what it can actually tell us.
References:
1. massresearchreview.com/
2. / @massresearchreview
3. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1885443/
4. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7759443/
5. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27219...
6. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29282...
7. onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/a...
8. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12453...
9. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21270...
10. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29489...
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#musclesoreness #hypertrophy #scienceexplained
"Does Soreness Mean Your Workout Was Effective? (Science Explained)"
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Пікірлер: 149

@warrenhenning8064 Ай бұрын

Yeah, that makes sense. Train close to failure, get sore in the target muscle, recover just in time, add a rep or a little bit of weight to continue progressive overload, barely complete it, take a deload if and when needed, repeat until you are so big and strong that people find you much less attractive than when you were an early intermediate

@WolfCoaching Ай бұрын

The ultimate goal for any lifter

@phantomcreamer Ай бұрын

Recover just in time is awfully vague. If the goal is not to set a PR every time you enter the gym but maximize hypertrophy, I don't know if we have the answer to what "just in time" means.

@Nick-kf3io Ай бұрын

That's very true which is why I plan on just maintaining once I'm intermediate. Ultimate hotness is the goal in life lo

@emirnartyzhev2053 Ай бұрын

@@phantomcreamerit means just in time as if not too late not too early

@phantomcreamer Ай бұрын

@@emirnartyzhev2053 when is that

@user-ii7xc1ry3x Ай бұрын

MASS research is goated

@WolfCoaching Ай бұрын

Factual

@Enthalpy248 Ай бұрын

1- Do a video on maximizing recovery for hypertrophy. 2- If damage does not cause growth, but does use resource for repair -- should we try to minimize damage. But how do you lift with excess stress but not get too damaged and cause your body to react with growing the muscle larger???

@Viking_Raven Ай бұрын

This is the intricate balance between stimulus and muscle damage. This is why training to complete failure is counterproductive in the mid to long term.

@Enthalpy248 Ай бұрын

@@Viking_Raven I am finding this. I am late 50's - somewhat jacked (no TRT or other) but have been stuck for 4 months. Training so hard I am always sore somewhere and not sleeping, etc. I dropped my sets in 1/2 but push near and sometimes to failure. I am starting to progress again and not always sore and sleeping way better.

@lukas4235 Ай бұрын

damage comes from high reps, by calcium ion accumulation in the cytoplasm that activates muscle protein degrading enzymes. train low reps, high weight and you will get maximum stimulus with little damage and early recovery.

@WhereArfThou Ай бұрын

Soreness is cap . All we care about is lengthened partials

@tim..t175 Ай бұрын

Could be crap also

@Jimmy29li Ай бұрын

One of your best vids on a very important topic.

@phsc7 Ай бұрын

Great informative video, love your content so much

@deboraharnaut989 Ай бұрын

Great video, thank you doc !

@gerym341 Ай бұрын

Very interesting. Thank you

@taefithendo 14 күн бұрын

Great informational video thanks

@kanone65 Ай бұрын

i do not train anymore to failure. u have much more power and u do not have to rest days after training. Now i can train every day .. i am over 40.

@wyndell300 Ай бұрын

Sprinters, in regards to sprinting. paying attention to soreness can be the difference between running a fast time or pulling a muscle. Olympic Sprinter Wyndell Dickinson

@Wetterwet Ай бұрын

Shout out to Dr. Wolf. I remember the days where Mike and James would roast you during the Q and As.. learned so much from those videos and it’s nice to continue that journey with you. Keep grinding my man

@jason2014 Ай бұрын

Who's Mike and James? Do they have full names?

@Wetterwet Ай бұрын

@@jason2014 Dr. Mike Israetel and Dr. James Hoffmann

@Omar1066 Ай бұрын

Milo did the time stamping on the old RP Q&A videos. That was very useful. Thanks Milo.

@Flahtort Ай бұрын

Do you have names of those videos??

@Wetterwet Ай бұрын

@@Flahtort playlist within the RP KZbin channel towards the bottom of the playlists called ‘webinars’

@brianjackson4177 Ай бұрын

Super helpful

@treckrunner711 Ай бұрын

Thank you for the info as one is always learning. Almost 💯 sure it was you I saw today at the top of St. Michael's Hill, if not there is another Milo Wolf walking about 😉

@ExcitedSaturnPlanet-wt3it Ай бұрын

Love how Dr Milo says "wuck-out" instead of workout

@YourCRTube 21 күн бұрын

Everyone is free to experiment with themselves, BUT I have trained for more then an year without progress and not getting sore, yet I have never been sore and not having progress (given enough food). Take it as you wish.

@forsaken841 Ай бұрын

Sitting here sore AF from yesterdays workout

@adriancross6050 Ай бұрын

You dont even have to be weight training to get sore. I was sick the past two weeks and yesterday i got to strech my lower body for the first time again properly and today i was definitely sore from that

@Antonio_Serdar Ай бұрын

I only get sore after training after a week or two off from lifting but still make fine progress.

@yiannis.demetriou9696 Ай бұрын

Best youtube channel by far on resistance training. I like getting sore but in reality I have noticed no more gains than when I am not getting sore, for me it works to lift heavy and really push the intensity. Lengthened partials work well for me and have reduced my tendonitis almost to nothing

@yahshuah144 Ай бұрын

Damn , the RP guys gonna have a field day with this, given they use soreness to gauge if a workout was effective and even to know when to overload

@user-fn1cd6mo9z Ай бұрын

Do they, though?

@RESNone208 Ай бұрын

They use muscle soreness as one of several proxies for effectiveness. No single proxy is seen as the gauge of effectiveness, but they all act in conjunction as indicators, like the pump. If you get a good pump, that is a proxy for effectiveness, but in itself doesn't tell you whether or not the lift caused growth. It's just part of the overall picture.

@FerintoshFarmsPhotography Ай бұрын

RP Hypertrophy App Disliked this

@dankiusarmwrestlingTaranBroad Ай бұрын

Im a high level competitive armwrestler. Whats your thoughts on training the same muscles in the forearm like pronation and wrist flexion almost everyday, like 4 days on 1 day off. With like 2 sets high intensity or would it be better to do slightly more volume and do it every 2nd day

@jackdemoguitar Ай бұрын

I have never made progress without getting at least a little sore the day after

@douglasauruss Ай бұрын

You can still get your side delts sore?

@noneyabusiness3253 Ай бұрын

After I’m working out consistently for a couple weeks most of my muscles won’t get sore no matter what I do.

@cheesenutpea Ай бұрын

@@noneyabusiness3253 Very weird. Curious if you are not undertraining.

@noneyabusiness3253 Ай бұрын

@@cheesenutpea I’ve upped the volume a lot trying to get sore before and didn’t get sore, I remember doing 12sets for chest and like 20 for back (if you include the 6 sets of face pulls a week I was doing at the time as back) and like 12 for biceps and triceps with little to no soreness and most of those were to failure or 0-1 rir, only certain muscles like hamstrings seem to get sore for me after a couple weeks and even then they usually Don’t get very sore unless I really try to fuck them up. Edit to get more specific I was doing 3 sets of rows and 3 sets of pull-ups or latpulldowns as well as 3 sets of face pulls ( or rear delt flys at one point) twice a week on a upper lower and for chest I was doing 3 sets of cable crossover flys and 3 sets of a bench/db bench variant. I’d have to look back at my training logs but I think I actually went to 4 sets of each at one point per day because I wasn’t getting sore so that’d be 16-22 sets and I still wasn’t sore. It might not be insane volume but I don’t think anyone would say it’s low volume at all and I was going to failure a lot, almost every set of rows and pull-ups was to failure as was all the arm work and a lot of the chest was as well.

@burnthrust Ай бұрын

@noneyabusiness3253 are u moving slow on the eccentric movements?

@Belisarius8111 Ай бұрын

I finally got rid of the fear of training with DOMS, ty Milo.

@tonyevanson69 Ай бұрын

Great information and so interesting 👍🏽 who would have thought in 2024 "we" still can't 100% explain muscle growth and prescribe the exact blueprint necessary, I suppose it will keep the debate going😂

@zakreiner2469 Ай бұрын

Hey Dr. Wolf, I was hoping you could go over some practical applications for methods of assessing fatigue to determine if rest day is needed. The only methods im familiar with are HRV, resting HR, grip strength, and capacity to hold breath (huberman podcast with Dr. Galpin)

@DavorinDinic Ай бұрын

From evolution's perspective, pain is our body's way of "warning" us to leave that part of the body alone. Could muscle soreness also be that? An indicator that something is happening, therefore, we should avoid "using" that muscle until the pain goes away? (just like our broken arm hurts until it's healed so we don't jerk it around and mess with the healing process)

@DavorinDinic Ай бұрын

Oh, i forgot to compliment you on the video and the amount of work you put into theese. Keep up the excellent work!

@douglasauruss Ай бұрын

Evolution doesn't optimize for hypertrophy

@D350DX Ай бұрын

I wouldn't say pain in itself is that reliable of a measure for this purpose. You are right in that pain is like the bodies warning signal. However, pain is largely a phenomenon of the brain, which is influenced not only by structure but also by mood, beliefs, and social factors. Too many things can influence it for it to be a reliable measure of muscle processes. Often in rehabilitation of injuries patients will expect some pain as part of the process and just resting completely can be detrimental depending on the injury. There are just certain amounts of pain that are more or less acceptable in that scenario

@douglasauruss Ай бұрын

Evolution doesn't optimize for hypertrophy

@cheesenutpea Ай бұрын

I was thinking the same, yet he states, the best indicator is actual performance. However, I myself when training with soreness always end up getting to a new level of soreness. So usually it's not really a great idea. I dó train pretty close to failure usually so maybe it would be wise to do a lighter sesion when in soreness. Will try tomorrow.

@Flahtort Ай бұрын

Big one for me. I get too carried away by the soreness in my own training. End up overthinking and missing the important parts like performance.

@shantanusapru Ай бұрын

Interesting & informative! Also, does this indicate, that one (researchers) should, perhaps, count only the sessions in which soreness occurs in secondary muscles as sets/volume towards those muscles, rather than in which it doesn't? (excluding eccentric overload or lengthened partials, where we should count them, regardless of soreness)

@Chriscrusty Ай бұрын

this is my issue with RP using soreness ratings to adjust programming. i'd say we do have evidence of absence at this point and using soreness to gauge how effective a workout is is unscientific. i've made good progress without really experiencing any soreness, i only get sore when i lower rest intervals.

@TheMisterAl Ай бұрын

So if soreness is reflective of being in the repair process, but is not reflective of muscle damage, wth are we repairing from?

@alecksrex Ай бұрын

Building muscles is like cleaning a house. It's fucked up and needs to be cleaned up and fixed, but a bigger mess needs to be made to fix it.

@DaveH1977 Ай бұрын

So eccentrics damage the muscle but concentric contraction doesn’t? Do slow eccentrics damage the muscle more? The advice is always to slow the eccentrics down. Are you saying here muscle damage isn’t a factor of muscle growth? So slow eccentrics now sounds counter productive if your body has to repair the muscle before making it bigger?

@sergejstojanovic2518 Ай бұрын

can you (if you didn't) make a video on some things that we can use to see if it is smart to skip a session because injury risk is much higher (like if we didn't sleep, or we are really sore from something that's not lifting and we did it for the first time)?

@cheesenutpea Ай бұрын

Maybe I missed a crucial part but if soreness does not indicate growth per sé. But it ís a signal, is it perhaps the body telling you to avoid using it so that synthesis can happen maximally?

@Adrian-cn5rk Ай бұрын

Sidebar, how long should one sit in the bottom of the eccentric phase of an exercise? Does pausing matter? Does pausing create more metabolites thus potentially creating more hypertrophy?

@sergejstojanovic2518 Ай бұрын

if you are less sore after getting used to smth, does that mean that you could get sore 1st time you do the ex (2 sets @PRE8), than you do it again and again and after some time you can raise volume and intensity, and still get more growth? so smth like you get used to the fatigue but not the hypertrophy (in a decreasing manner)?

@GokuBlack-sn5dr Ай бұрын

is pec fly machine as good as db fly?

@user-py2ix8qm2h Ай бұрын

Favorite upper body smith machine exercises?

@aestheticxx6077 Ай бұрын

I get sore when I do reps with a weighted stretch. Like calf raises or seated leg curls leaning forward

@khe8969 Ай бұрын

so if im not sore even after an effective workout what does this tell us? dr mike has stated it might mean your growing the fastest. if this is the case would you he then recommend chasing soreness by adding sets etc etc. doesnt make sense to me

@wyndell300 Ай бұрын

I'm watching this and I have been sore for 3 days now.

@GVPfitness 4 күн бұрын

Do a video on HMB the studies are confusing like does it work or it doesn’t matter if you have sufficient protein intake

@santiagobalado5643 Ай бұрын

Milo le baws!

@loganwolv3393 Ай бұрын

I would like to see what happens if i decide to train in such a way where when i get to the rep where i reach muscular failure i decide to just hold the weight after completing the concentric part and just hold it there as much as possible until i'm going on a forced eccentric? I mean since training to failure dosen't benefit, this would likely not benefit anyone, other than perhaps ultra advanced athletes.

@wesrobinson7506 Ай бұрын

Doesn’t soreness decrease force output? Also, another speculation. If soreness indicates muscle remodeling, wouldn’t that essentially mean that with more soreness you’re getting more muscle hypertrophy? Or could the remodeling just be back to baseline from the breakdown/damage?

@maxl.5297 Ай бұрын

I'd put my eggs in the basket of inflammatory reaction. I'd speculate that our immune system plays a role in Muscle Repair and Building... after all, suppressants (or mediators) like ibuprofen or cold water emersion etc., REDUCE Muscle building.

@BlackSpice Ай бұрын

so soreness is like emg that the muscle has been excited if youre lifting

@douglasauruss Ай бұрын

So if soreness is saying you're still in the repair phase, does that suggest it's best to wait a little longer to train that muscle group again? Or only go by performance as you stated by the end?

@Jackjack1978. Ай бұрын

I have been lifting for 27 years and I never train If I am even the least bit sore and that has served me well. Even if it moves my split around I only train when I feel like I'm at 100% period.

@WolfCoaching Ай бұрын

I'd just go by performance tbh. We don't yet know enough about soreness to make that inference, IMO

@Jimmy29li Ай бұрын

That’s not what he’s saying. He addressed half way through the video.

@MAG_-- Ай бұрын

@@WolfCoaching I benefited a lot from your discussion with Dr. Israetel and your video on this topic. We, could easily set up a study short and misleading enough where we find a positive correlation between hypertrophy and muscle growth, e.g. The control group doesn't train at all and other group does, 20 RIR VS 0, etc. Though, the anecodates are interesting, they could be covarying with switching excersise and techniques and intensity that were just more effacious. Or acute interoceptive attention to the area, leading to increased palpation detecting hypertrophy or maybe just swelling more easily. I was pretty unconvinced, though it's certainly plausible, by Dr. Israetel's contention of increased interoceptive accuracy correlating strongly with training age. The literature, uncomprehensive as my reading is, often depicts different valences, both positive and negative with interventions to increase interoceptive accuracy. Also, detection is not magnitude in fact there can be negative correlation between detecting stimuli and identifying its magnitude, though I've only seen this demonstrated in clinical populations. So should apply to everyone here. 😅 I also need like to get just a better understanding of the psychogenic factors in muscular skeletal disorders in general, though RT induced soreness is its own phenomenon there might be relevant information from the medical and physiotherapy literature that we could shed some light on acute and long term interpretations of bodily disruption, which might teach us something about proposed correlations of efficacy with soreness, the pump etc.

@fitnessspecifix5435 Ай бұрын

Even if you wanted to you wouldn’t train at your peak with soreness. You’d have to wait to be ready to train properly again

@VedranKlemens Ай бұрын

If muscle damage doesn’t cause hypertrophy, as Milo just said, can someone please explain what does? As someone who's not an expert, I always thought that when I work out, I’m supposed to create tension to damage my muscles, then rest so they can repair and grow bigger if I provide enough resources and time. This seemed to work for me, so I’m surprised to hear damage isn’t the cause. So, what actually drives muscle growth?

@MatthewJohnson-we3ep Ай бұрын

To be honest there isn't actually scientific consensus around what the exact mechanisms of hypertrophy are. It's best to just think of it as a response to muscle stimulus for the time being (until the lab coats figure this stuff out).

@VedranKlemens Ай бұрын

@@MatthewJohnson-we3ep thanks

@lukas4235 Ай бұрын

mechanical tension that a single fiber experiences will cause an adaptation of this fiber. no damage needed.think the exact signalling path is not clear, but it tension is detected over protein conformation which increses myofibrillar protein synthesis. damage and muscle burning during a workout are both not desired as they will interfere with hypertrophy and setting a big enough stimulus.

@dodgingrain3695 11 күн бұрын

Wouldn't soreness just be a response by the body to prevent injury? You've stressed the muscle to the point that it needs some work so the body makes it sore to reduce the chance of excessive damage while the muscle is in a weakened state. Performance on the next session seems to be at best a weak indicator of performance on the previous session, there are to many other factors involved that may have a far larger influence such as if I ate food the during the day before a session or not.

@MrWalrus3451 Ай бұрын

10:20 But didn't the group that trained less frequently by definition experience way more growth from each session?

@esostoic Ай бұрын

I think he said they equated workload. So yeah on a per session basis but they all did the same amount of volume

@MrWalrus3451 Ай бұрын

@@esostoic So they did get more gains and more soreness per session. Seems to me like soreness isnt required by any means BUT does give some indication to the magnitude of stimulus your muscles experienced.

@peterspaulding4716 Ай бұрын

Seems so counterintuitive. Like, our bodies just tell us a bunch of useless stuff all the time and our brain has no option but to interpret it as probably important and it must mean __x thing__, but actually the body is more like "whatever, you can't trust me".

@hypertrophil8964 Ай бұрын

Last Tuesday was chest day, I got like 1 hour of sleep Monday night, I usually get 8-9 reps, this week I did chest on Wednesday, I have slept great every night since Monday night last week, this week's chest day I could barely get 6 reps, I had to lower the weight 😭 WHY? 😭

@MrKakemann1 Ай бұрын

I wonder what training level you would have to be, to not get sore AF after legg day. The 2 biggest muscle groups always makes me walk "funny" for atleast 3 days after.

@lukas4235 Ай бұрын

then you are overtraining. do less and you won't get DOMS, and optimize hypertrophy

@biggadawg Ай бұрын

It’s not that complicated. All other factors being equal (obviously you’re older every session) then soreness is an indicator of how much you are/aren’t accustomed to the stimulus and therefore does have its use. The body is telling us something more than ..I worked this part of my body..

@Coachahmadreza Ай бұрын

❤

@gokukakarot1855 Ай бұрын

For the algorithm

@gamer8555 Ай бұрын

i get sore everytime i do chest like the next day i wake up i feel like i got the gist of chest training my chest is getting bigger my the week

@stark5353 Ай бұрын

Incoming call: Mike Israetel.

@seattlegrrlie Ай бұрын

I'm 45. Everything is sore. I go on a bike ride, I'm sore. I go on a hike, I'm sore. I lift weight, I'm sore. And if I just sit on my bum all day, I'm sore

@user-zv6mk2uq9b Ай бұрын

I’m 42 and don’t feel that way even after hard workouts. Maybe look into cleaning up your diet, adding healthy carbs proteins, fats, fish oil, vitamin D. Talk to your doc first of course. If you’re being coy, fuck u just trying to help.

@divine4454 Ай бұрын

Try to do it more consistently and when you have longer break from something, do it a little bit easier untill you adapt. Consistency is a key to adaptation, plus if you feel u are stiff in some part of your muscles use a roller before training it in full rom, slowing the stretch part of the movement 🫡

@kanone65 Ай бұрын

i do not train anymore to failure. that was the key for me . i have much more power and can train everyday.. i am 44. Before that i need to recover days and i do not feel well . Now i am training everything i want and that every day just slightly diffrent than on other days.