Does SORENESS = MUSCLE GROWTH? (ft. Dr. Mike Israetel)

[@evan191919]

I’m a simple man. I see Dr. Mike, I touch myself.

[@Doombotino]

indeed, although im starting to develop a resistance to his hairy grippers

[@jarrod1687]

Dr Mike's fanbase are a bunch of sexual deviates...... exactly how I like it

[@Boom_IX]

W man

[@BrettC-cy6tn]

It’s like his head is naturally oiled up, my pee pee can’t take it 😩

[@Answeriz42]

Mind-penile connection

[@porkchop9978]

Dr mike on his own channel: 🩺🤡💪 Dr mike on other channels: 🧠

[@emmanuelmunoz5430]

Yeah I do see it, He is just having fun while giving good information. On other channels he is trying to give the respect the audience and the creator deserves.

[@pnkrckmom]

😅

[@tomjones8235]

Yes. I have learned a lot from Dr. Mike on his own channel, but some of the schtick is getting old. Real old.

[@locdogg86]

I think that’s how he really is, not quite that bad but he does like to joke around a lot on podcasts.

[@codybolo7803]

​@@tomjones8235 you must be fun at parties 🤓🤓

[@robertwilcox9566]

This was a great discussion but DAMN that background music is distracting

[@TheTykus]

Too percussive or something

[@johnlesoudeur3653]

More than distracting...totally irritating. I had to turn it off and went to subtitles.

[@josephgardi7522]

It's only bothering me now that you pointed out out

[@ryanhanford4878]

Agreed, very distracting. Good chat though.

[@totallyfrozen]

Subconsciously, you thought you were still watching p**n. 😆

[@amer6522]

I think the background music should be lower it's a bit noisy Everything else is perfect

[@greenwavefitness7545]

Cutting the background music would be extraordinarily welcome

[@ParkerBG]

Disagree

[@wolffofcinema3448]

@@ParkerBGI disagree with your disagreement

[@tsebosei1285]

​@@wolffofcinema3448 😂😂😂

[@alixthefunk]

I think it's just Mike's attempt at being romantic

[@johnodonoghue651]

Drop the background music

[@DILFDylF]

Disagree, I think it would be easier to focus if instead of dropping the music, they instead overlapped 3 separate tracks and pitch shifted them to cover different frequencies, and then muted the vocal track.

[@Dionysos_____Alters]

@@DILFDylF So? Its still distracting. Like if you speak to a person, you listen to music in the background? Nope

[@R3dCol0r]

@@Dionysos_____Alters adhd much? Of course people have background music on when talking. You never had a conversation when a radio is on or a tv? Never went to a bar or sat outside a pub?

[@Dionysos_____Alters]

@@R3dCol0r Yep. No, usually I dont have anything in the background. Btw ADHD people tend to be more focused in situations of chaos and loud noises😄

[@stevend481]

​@@R3dCol0r lol wut? What benefit does music add? This isn't a bar. Does joe rogan put music on during his podcasts? We're trying to listen to the convo, not listen to music

[@PNWTruckCamper]

I've never made gains without being sore and I've never been sore without making gains. It's a very good indication. Chase moderate soreness

[@smirbelbirbel]

I don't think I ever got my biceps sore, and they grow like mad. My hamstrings get sore for days from the smallest volume, yet they refuse to grow. I'm not doubting it works for you like that, but it surely is no general paradigm for everyone to follow.

[@iamthegamepro]

When you stop getting sore you stopped making newbie gains.

[@MegaBentus]

How do you know?

[@Ignozi]

Not my experience. Biceps, triceps and forearms are getting noticeably stronger but I don't get DOMS.

[@uzifan88]

@@IgnoziI rarely get sore. My legs are the only muscle group that gets very sore. what really confuses me is how my last chest and triceps day was very intense and I went to complete failure. Next day I feel nothing, and sometimes I do feel the muscle. I’m like “wtf is going on”

[@rjdenomme8665]

Some muscles get more sore than others for me, but I do enjoy a good soreness. Makes u feel like u worked hard on that muscle and can feel good with what you are doing.

[@totallyfrozen]

True, but I often regret leg or back soreness because I groan and move like an 80 year old for 3 days in a row. 🤣

[@chandansimms9167]

@@totallyfrozencalves being sore is the worse. You wake up to go to the toilet and you can barley walk 😂

[@joelonsdale]

I'm always sore as hell from working out and make sure I fully recover and have two days of no soreness before working that muscle again. I'm older, so avoiding injury and exhaustion is number one priority.

[@Jackjack1978.]

I have been lifting for 27 years and one of my rules that I never break is never working out when any targeted muscle is sore. It has been a highly effective rule for me.

[@johannesschmitz6370]

Do you mean to not workout at all until youre free from soreness or not workout the sore muscle but the unsore muscles can be worked on?

[@Jackjack1978.]

@@johannesschmitz6370 Correct, workout only what is 100% free from soreness:) In my experience, I would say that you are sabotaging gains if you do not allow a particular muscle group to completely heal. And by heal, I mean, no soreness whatsoever. I want to be 100% when I hit that muscle again Even if that throws off my schedule.

[@metalmarten3478]

​@@johannesschmitz6370wondering the same thing. Not working out at all if ANY muscle at all is sore seems... well.

[@Jackjack1978.]

@@johannesschmitz6370 I wait just until the specific muscle group that I am training is recovered only..

[@JMyers91C]

​@@metalmarten3478this is underlying theme of push, pull, legs. On leg day, my chest, shoulders, and tri's are sore. You split your workout in to groups of muscles that are involved in a compound movement so that you can more easily avoid using those muscles on the other days to rest and avoid damage.

[@seattlegrrlie]

I'm not a scientific study, but I've noticed what Dr Mike was saying in my own training. No soreness means I'm going to light and just don't see improvement. Too much soreness means I'm not recovering and start accruing systemic fatigue which leads to a crash and not improving. The balance is a little sore, that gets better before the next set or you push that set a day or just lift lighter/less that one set. It's all about personal ability to recover and we are all individuals

[@deanamodeo4072]

Next set?

[@nusuralove4407]

Very well stated 👏🏾

[@hayesdelezene4590]

A gentlemanly discussion between two hosses is most welcome. I appreciate the discussion, especially the acknowledgment of the difference in the tolerance for type 1 error between scientific and coaching contexts.

[@totallyfrozen]

What are “hosses”?

[@the_nerd_showtv5562]

To me, soreness is one of the best part of lifting. It's a reminder of my hard work and I has helped me a lot of time to analize how to bulld my program. For example, my bicep are extremely hard to fatigue and sore (and that's true for a lot of people), so i started working them more often and with a very full ROM. Now they're growing much faster, all thanks to soreness. From personal experience, the only part of my body that can be almost not sore while still growing a lot is my back, but maybe it's just genetics.

[@LeGou]

Sounds like you need to do a proper deadlift day lol .

[@the_nerd_showtv5562]

@@LeGou I did but honestly, deadlift is not a good hypertrophic exercise, and I don't have enough weight at my home gym to do it properly

[@smirbelbirbel]

I'd argue that your biceps grow better thanks to more and higher quality training, not thanks to soreness. The soreness is just something that happens to occur from more volume and more stress on the muscle. It might sound pedantic, but I think delineating between causation and correlation is always important.

[@the_nerd_showtv5562]

@@smirbelbirbel yeah, I don't mean that soreness directly cause growth, just that it's a tool to know if you're growing, and I'd argue the best onet, on pair with beeng able to progressivly overload

[@onurbole7921]

Back is very complex. How you hold the weight, how you anchor your body, a slight wrist flexion, angle of resistance, and so many other small factors make a huge difference on which part of your back gets the most work. For instance I have to do a lot of pullups to get sore, but just a couple sets of slow and stretched close-grip pulldowns where the resistance is not vertical or horizontal but somewhere between, and my upper back is rounded at the top, then my lats get super sore. Training pecs is much simpler, simply push heavy things and they will get sore. It takes time to build mind muscle connection with your back to control which muscle you really pull the weight with and to fatigue it specifically. For general back strength and size it may not be that important, any muscle can grow without soreness but after a certain point it helps to be able to specifically target some parts and make them sore. It is good for variety as well. In my case it is impossible to make my side delts and upper traps sore though. I do feel them, I get pumps, I can exhaust them specifically, but I have basically grown them without soreness, except when I was a beginner and came from occasional breaks. They just adapt to higher volumes quickly without getting sore.

[@nwmxrider]

I'll always like being sore after lifting lol.

[@nateperez6587]

I agree with Dr. Mike Israetel on this one.

[@flabio7074]

I’m actually using the app and his heuristic has been working really well for me. I’m training some body parts much more and some much less, and my results overall have improved greatly.

[@justinjames3148]

Anyone not listening to RP podcast needs to... i listen in my last hour of work abd its the biggest foot in the door to going to the gym. "Training or working out".. he really does get to the nuts and bolts of what we are trying to achieve. Thank you Dr.

[@ivankayastha6349]

I see Dr Mike I click

[@user-ii7xc1ry3x]

Same, The Thing was always my favourite out of the 4.

[@arisschnelldorfer9441]

Same here 😅

[@PXO005]

@@user-ii7xc1ry3xit appears the thing got a lot more moisturised and lost a lot of its pigments

[@cyber_syndicate2920]

Fr tho

[@onurbole7921]

The comment i saw before this was "I see Mike I touch myself," and I read your comment "I see Dr Mike I dick," don't even know what it means.

[@ManForToday]

All I can say is that for the first time in my lifting experience (nearly 10 years, on and off). The past training cycle (10 weeks so far) I've grown like never before because of really increasing the stimulus, reaching near failure/failure with long-length partials, and sticking to this 4x a week. Every week I've managed to get sore and see the growth. If I dropped the stimulus (volume or frequency) I think I'd stall. I'm already struggling to keep this up but now it's easier to identify why - I struggle to eat enough. However, trying to get sore (with good exercise selection, technique etc) has fixed my early intermediate plateaus like never before.

[@r.124]

background music was really annoyinh

[@quintonwhite3696]

Need more of these healthy debates

[@jockez3581]

I love not being able to sit down without effort. 👌

[@jonathandalsgaard8730]

This is such a cool discussion to see 2 Ph.D.'s talk about the research in there field :D

[@Yupppi]

I only know that no matter if the hypertrophy occurs even more when I'm plenty sore all the time, I need time in my life when I can do other stuff than recover from gym. So autoregulating soreness when it doesn't subside at all and is too intense, becomes something that allows life outside gym.

[@wDeXteR4]

This is a huge part why I want to change my splits from 3 day full body to leg, push and pull upper boddy splits because having my whole body out of comission for the whole week till the deload is unsustainable

[@Split_the_beer_atom]

its so dangerous but true that many beginners cannot differentiate joint vs muscle soreness from sheer lack of experience

[@stormslo]

I can't:(

[@joe1071]

As a fast twitch muscle fiber athlete who played at the college level, I can attest that I get sore AF from lifting. Always thought it was because I was going harder than everyone else, but Mike’s explanation makes sense since I was the most fast twitch muscle fiber guy on the team

[@bayat53]

Former collegiate s&c guy here. The dose response for most fast twitch guys is typically high, meaning they probably need less total volume with often higher relative intensity. The sport/event/season/etc matter, but sport is most often based off the higher power production, whither absolute or relative. Cluster training might be a better option during a volume accumulation, possibly density (ethan reeve wf) for possible repeated sprintability, or a contrast method (french or simpler methods) for another variety (tissue remodel or power realization), even clusters for hypertrophy is available if the athlete is more power oriented (sprinters throwers, football, base/soft, hockey, etc). These are playing to the athletes strengths but the outcome is more pertinent for power athletes. If the athlete is "deconditioned" for the training type or the sport, simply allocate more training time for conditioning. Or possibly need to change training plan to increase recovery. But dont use a saw as a hammer (lifting for conditioning response).

[@greenwavefitness7545]

solid discussion. with the uncertainty here, defaulting to the logbook seems like way to go, i.e., progressive overload, as always, reigns supreme.

[@finnhd915]

My hamstrings will stay sore for days, like 3-6, but often times my upper body barely gets sore at all after working out even though I increase reps and/or weight every session

[@leokal457]

I actually observed how soreness is correlated with my training performance. I had two findings: 1. When I‘m considerably sore, even after the warm up, my performance is going to suffer everytime. 2. In extremly rare circumstances, I feel not sore at all, but still vaguely fatigued from another workout. The feeling is very slight but in such circumstances my performance is much worse than usual and can be even worse compared to when I‘m training slightly sore. I amateurishly conclude, that for me personally, soreness is a good enough indicator of fatigue to alter my training when I‘m feeling very sore. It doesnt work the other way around tho. So I still could be very fatigued but not sore at all, so it only works in one direction. Note that all if this is highly subjective and only based on my very limited experience but still interesting. The video was extremly interesting and I‘m looking forward for more research on correlation between soreness and performance or hypertrophy!

[@darrenrandy7358]

Dr. Mike is a great guy. Appreciate his contribution...

[@walkerclark4794]

Great content. Worst background audio possible.

[@SuperTommieNL]

Hell yeah. Conversation does NOT need music.

[@mysanalumina]

Soreness correlating with muscle growth/recovery sounds similar to wound healing causing itchiness and discomfort.

[@peetos-chan2835]

Yeah, dr Mike's checklist is my favorite way to identify things

[@ColdComrade]

We all love doctor Mike!❤

[@greenpighunter6930]

If I have no trouble steering or climbing in my truck after training, I under trained.

[@AndrewSeal-wq6xy]

Dom's increases mind muscle connection. Maybe Alexis train or be aware of the muscles are training more effectively 3 days out

[@zachlloyd9392]

@19:00 I'm not this person, but this is me also. Bro split has worked well for me to accumulate more weekly volume, and now I can do 2 sets per body part twice a week, and seem to be recovering well at the moment, but still not able to do more hitting a muscle twice a week vs 1

[@regenesis5055]

Great discussion!

[@danielkanewske8473]

Dr Wolf is the following a reasonable conclusion from this discussion. Soreness is likely correlated with muscle growth but doesn't cause muscle growth.

[@TheGreatgan]

I dont know the truth, but in my experience, quality rest n protein determine how fast my soreness would be gone.. lack of sleep n insufficient quality protein, made soreness last longer

[@Leo-gi7bg]

Why have fix training days? Why not just train when not sore anymore?

[@Steadywrenches]

Such great info Dr Mike puts out !!! I see a lot of people saying their legs get sore and don’t grow but biceps do and while I agree that everyone is different. how often do most ppl end up doing a pull exercise (back or bicep) and how often a hamstring or quad exercise? And not to mention hitting 15-20 sets for biceps but only 4-5 sets for quads or hamstrings. Most ppl knock out a back day and a separate arm day, but hit the legs only once a week. Volume was the other part of that equation 💪. Also I get pumped up when I’m sore. 48 hours out sucks and by 72 hours I’m ready to hit it again

[@patrickcarr1824]

Thanks for making this video, I have been wondering about the actual mechanism behind soreness for a bit.

[@John117M63]

Sometimes I do bench and I feel absolutely nothing even though I can only do 10-14 reps. Makes it hard to see if my form is good if the muscle doesn't feel worked

[@jokecukie]

This video should help. The, talk about this scenario

[@auralplex]

That’s cause barbell bench sucks. Use dumbells and you will feel it.

[@OfficialLeverKing]

There’s definitely something to be said about soreness and being part of the remodeling process. Many kids who experience rapid growth spurts also experience tons of soreness and they don’t have any stimulus causing growth other than hormones

[@GoufinAround_]

I think soreness is a good way of making sure you’re actually hitting the muscles that you’re trying to hit. Other than that I don’t really use it for anything

[@LowHangingFruitForest]

I lift chest once a week, my chest feels strong, I’m blown out by the end of every workout, and my chest is never sore. Every other muscle group is almost always in perpetual pain. I could lift it 2-3 days a week, but I already train 10 sessions a week and my chest is very well developed.

[@danieladler3210]

Why sourness increases in 2nd or 3rd day if you don't exercise at all? But if you exercise after a day of rest it seems to get better sooner?

[@akashafofo6939]

I want an answer on that. If I do not train after a soreness, the sore muscles get worse and last longer. On the other hand, if I train them even at the next next, the pain decreases until there is no more.

[@PillowOfEvil]

Some people also complain about soreness all the time and do sets of like 30 reps and they also have tendon pain because tendons don't get to recover that quickly.

[@Sin-uz1bp]

I’m just a random guy who doesn’t know that much but when you train hard or damage your body in specific ways you get an inflammation response. Inflammation means blood is forced into the area which causes a degree of mild swelling which aids recovery. The swelling causes soreness due to the pressure inside the area. What do you think of this?

[@JohnProph]

Soreness is a weird thing. I recently finished a 4 week meso where I did chest/delt/tri 2x per week. So I was doing minimum 6 sets of direct tris 2x per week. If I count in all chest and delt pressing as tri work then it came out to 95 sets over the 4 weeks. If I count only direct tri work it was 51 sets over the 4 weeks. Trust me, a lot of the sets were close to or at failure, especially the last 2 weeks. The result. My lying tri extensions stalled and finally regressed. IIRC my overhead rope tri ext also stalled. By flat bench stalled and/or regressed. Well Im 56 yrs old AND also cutting. My form is pretty strict and im a "beat the logbook" kind of guy. So it doesnt take a rocket scientist to say "hey dummy, its way too much volume AND intensity". And I agree. But the kicker???? I NEVER got sore triceps lol. Id get an ok pump...maybe some very mild tightness but nothing resembling soreness. Go figure

[@tescoownbrandlit]

You were cutting. I wonder if your body didn't have enough energy to motivate you psychologically to push to the limit required to lift heavier and therefore incur soreness/rebuilding, because it doesn't have the energy to spend on it.

[@JohnProph]

@@tescoownbrandlit I dont think thats it because I always push pretty close to failure especially after the first 2 weeks of a meso. I think its mainly because ive been lifting forever. Probably need to try to find some novel stimulus ive missed

[@RCCurtright]

@@JohnProph I think the part about soreness being linked to the remodeling process is important here. You may have gotten a great stimulus that would be enough to make you sore IF you’d had enough nutrients to recover fully. But, if soreness is stimulus + recovery, and you are missing the recovery pieces, then you get no or less soreness.

[@henryyanez6438]

I remember that scene in “Pumping Iron” when Arnold and Franco Columbu had exactly this same conversation.

[@patrickbateman69420]

Guys I'm just looking to grow my head like Dr Mike, can anyone point me in the right direction?

[@nicolarriu1326]

I tend to believe that a lack of soreness has a lot to do with a lack of reaching a threshold of muscle activation. Ex. The ability to only activate 20 percent of the calf muscle with the 20 percent being the a portion of the gastro head then doms doesn't seem likely because there's not enough activation to create the stimulus needed to create damage and pump enough blood into said muscle .

[@RedactedATS]

Personally i like feeling sore after training, it feels good when i stretch in the morning and the muscles feel like they've been worked

[@warrenhenning8064]

Lengthened partials? What are those? If only this channel had someone who could explain this mysterious concept

[@MrMariYTBE]

Partial reps might be best for muscle growth. A meta-analysis by Wolf and colleagues in 2023 found that compared to using a full range of motion, doing lengthened partials, or essentially half reps in a lengthened position of a movement, could actually lead to 5 to 10% more muscle growth. However, a big limitation of this analysis was that they only had three studies comparing lengthened partials to a full range of motion. With that being said, there have been two more studies since then, one published and one unpublished, that have compared lengthened partials to a full range of motion in the calves, glutes, and hamstrings respectively, finding more favorable growth using lengthened partials. This is actually in line with much of the evidence out there comparing shorter muscle length training to longer muscle length training. Specifically, we have eight studies comparing longer muscle length partials to shorter muscle length partials, with seven finding a benefit in terms of hypertrophy to lengthened partials and the eighth study finding no difference. Likewise, we have two studies comparing the seated calf raise to the standing calf raise, or a more shortened exercise for the gastrocnemius to a more lengthened exercise. One study by Koshida and colleagues and one from our own lab both found the more lengthened exercise, the standing calf raise, leads to more gastrocnemius hypertrophy. So, try half reps in the lengthened position-that's why.

[@seethe313]

lengthened partials as I understand them is taking the muscle from its most elongated state to partially contracted. One of the easiest ways to illustrate this is to do bicep curls where the arm is fully extended and to curl halfway. The elongation focusing on the eccentric especially is believed to be one of the most effective ways to stress the muscle.

[@TypicallyUniqueOfficial]

@@MrMariYTBE he’s joking. Milo Wolf is one of the researchers for progressing narrative of lengthened partials.

[@faithnfitnessguykk9569]

Dude, not everyone gets a good joke. But hey, you did get a good lesson from those who only have a left side of a brain.

[@curlyheadnato]

i dont think they understood the joke

[@oliviervo6889]

Amazing and informative video.

[@WtbgoldBlogspot]

"I fear we may be reducing muscle growth." I'd like to imagine that Dr. Wolf goes to the Olympia and is just screaming the whole time at the fear of all the potential gains the bodybuilders are missing out on.

[@ggrthemostgodless8713]

If you are sore, first define if it is muscle belly orness or other type of soreness, like joint soreness... then decide by the facts like how long it takes for the soreness to go away,... the big question then seems to be do you add more sets with same weight or more weight with fewer sets.... or to not get as some, do you reduce weight or sets?? Other coaches say you should sacrifice intensity (measured by weight on the bar) last. So in THAT view, you reduce sets, or keep sets but reduce reps. Keeping in mind max volume you can recover from, a thing you must find by doing, and failing, meaning overdoing it at some points, bc the "relative perceived exception" seems to be a lying indicator for most people, so to find out you have to go beyond the max recovery volume, then back off from there... ?? is that it??

[@jeffbm6880]

More drugs, more sleep, more food = more sore. Well, that's the opposite of what i thought, but it appears to be true.

[@alexgrenlie862]

Underdosing? Glad to know I need to be on gear

[@eternalklothgardengangsta685]

Pahahaha 😂

[@lyromata]

There has to be a metric that I can use in my training that says I got a good workout while waiting on the science to catch up. I think I am more in Dr. Mikes camp where muscle soreness is a good indicator of workout performance.

[@ironmaidenfitness654]

Team Dr Mike 🎉🎉

[@IsaacFNghost]

If I don’t feel sore I definitely feel like I failed my training session. For me the hardest muscle group for they is bicep. I will do my curls with a nice long stretch at the bottom of my reps and do them until my bi’s are screaming at me, then have a mild mild soreness the next day..

[@jimbo9313]

I’m feeling good sore right now. Just the perfect amount. I’ll be good to go tomorrow. Debating whether it’ll be a leg day or a shoulder day. Also considering trying an ab session. Dr. Mike does those ab machines at the gym actually work?

[@smirbelbirbel]

Anything that provides restiance and take the target muscle through a decent ROM (in this case ribs to pelvis) and can be progressively overloaded in a rep range of 6-30 will work.

[@joelphillips4468]

Would be cool to see Mike on the podcast to discuss/debate some of this stuff with Greg too

[@jimmyrace1258]

I train full bodies 4 ish days a week. Hardly get any soreness due to the split volume on each muscle. I’m a very advanced lifter and get good results from it. Works great when the lifting his quality and efficiency. Soreness doesn’t help. Just reduces efficiency

[@jimmyrace1258]

Also not on gear. When I was years back I found pounding muscles into the ground creating soreness was more optimal

[@adrians5875]

What's your 10 rep max on bench/ DB press?

[@jimmyrace1258]

@@adrians5875 that’s random lol. 50kg dumbells and 115kg for bench

[@jimmyrace1258]

@@adrians5875 I don’t ever go below 10 reps for anything. I don’t train for strength anymore

[@gregariousguru]

If you dont know the difference between a good soreness (high intesity), vs an bad soreness (injury induced), you should really learn the difference immediately.

[@SergeyLifts]

I see dr. Click, I mike

[@BoneOrchard]

As an older lifter I’m curious if there are more findings regarding NSAID use actually being beneficial for hypertrophy. Last I heard there was speculation that it could bring greater systemic inflammation found in older people down to a more normal level snd therefore allow them to adapt to the stimulus caused by the actual training.

[@DILFDylF]

If using NSAIDs allows hard training to happen, they're beneficial. The reduction in hypertrophy is likely not tremendous. Closer to 10% than 50%.

[@iamthegamepro]

If i work out when being when too sore … ill break out in hives. So my allergist told me to only work out when im not sore. Rest days are critical.

[@Hybridknfgrowchannel]

For me it does the more im sore from training the quicker i pack on muscle especially if its DOMS. If you're training with high intensity principles you will be very sore

[@patrick5645]

Crank that background music shit! Yeeeeaaaaahhhh!!!!

[@AnthonyVenmans]

''Shock the Muscle''... true or false?

[@modemarcoj8026]

Almost comical Real simple If you hit any muscle group and it’s to uncomfortable to hit it again after 3-4 days max you did too much damage 3 days off is the sweet spot to get to for solid recovery and remodeling Of course that is if diet ,supplementation and sleep are on point As Lee Haney said Stimulate does not annihilate Been adhering to that for over 20 years for the most part minus some occasions where I train with someone and we brutalize tissues

[@Atamanxxxvii]

I've been doing 1 set of RDLs, with a deficit and a short pause. I get DOMs from that for about 4-5 days afterwards. Then again I used to do 5 sets of 10 of squats, and I'd get near crippling DOMs within an hour that would last for days. Has anyone else experienced this?

[@TypicallyUniqueOfficial]

Doesn’t the repeated bout effect somewhat nullify this argument? When I train a muscle 2x per week it’s almost never sore, but if you train a muscle 1x a week it will get more sore more easily. If you took it a step further, and trained a muscle once every 2 weeks then it would get much more sore. It’s superfluous to increase volume/stimulus because you’re not sore.

[@SeuOu]

That's not the argument, though...he's saying a lack of soreness is an indicator that volume MAY be too low, not that lack of soreness indicates your volume IS too low.

[@user-he4ef9br7z]

For some reason this never happened to me. If I train legs 1x a week I'll be sore, 2x I'll be bed ridden. Maybe this effect is just people adjusting as they get stronger.

[@TypicallyUniqueOfficial]

@@user-he4ef9br7z when you first start a 2x a week program, you need to give it time. When I first ever did a 2x a week program it was Layne Norton’s PHAT. The first 3 weeks you will be sore multiple sessions. You’re not supposed to train to failure the first 3-4 week. After the 3rd week you can feel the difference. Personally I don’t get very sore except in my chest and hamstring mostly. On the rare occasion my back will get sore if I switch an exercise out then it goes back. My side delts NEVER get sore, even training them 16 sets a week to failure for every set and with all kinds of drop sets, and they’re easily my strongest bodypart.

[@WhereArfThou]

team Dr. Milo

[@TheOuroborosWyrm]

Nice to see smart people disagree in a productive (ie informative) way.

[@Half-code]

The background music is too quiet

[@gabemorales3118]

I’ve noticed that my legs and triceps get crazy sore no matter what but it’s basically impossible to make my lats and biceps sore

[@rickymckim4480]

Doc Mike is the Shizzle

[@U.S.A219]

Dr. M.I-6 Is not “just” a expert. He’s “the” expert ! Great Podcast. 🔥🔥🔥

[@nameless3191]

I load a muscle group once per 9 days, each set to failure. Getting soreness every time (except side delts)

[@WilliamusTrades]

great talk

[@DrTopLiftDPT]

I’m not getting some soreness I’m not expecting strength or muscle improvement

[@kidbrown2010]

But you can do a bunch of junk training, never develop strength or muscle growth and still get sore. Due to things like machine hopping, excessive volume, poor sleep, etc. The mechanisms of soreness is completely independent, and that can present itself in some many more ways than mechanical tension. One of the bigger eye openers I had on soreness, besides having spun my wheels for 3 years, getting sored every session, yet putting minimal strength/size, is when I started stretching/rolling after leg training. With the *exact same* workout, I felt half as sore the next day. I understand how people get sore (I myself feel sore as shit right now) and mentally link the two, but once you take the entire context into account, I just can't see it as anything more than correlation.

[@DrTopLiftDPT]

I just hit all time PRs this year natural 550, 370, 605 SBD at 36 yo. Im going to get sore every session.

[@WhereArfThou]

2:50 dr milo's rizz is unmatched

[@Oi-mj6dv]

Soreness is kind of a good proxy you did something to the muscle. Thats for sure. I heavily disagree that you should avoid training through soreness at all costs. No, It has benefits the first of which being you will stop getting as sore.

[@creasybear4426]

Can you turn up the background music please

[@cjanowsk]

For some reason, my shoulders never ever get sore. But my calves always do!

[@gyorgygajdos1657]

However, empirically, one knows that immediate eating of proteins and fats (eggs+cheese) after a long and hard workout and a few hours of bedrest also immediately after eating does reduces the upcoming soreness and shortens its duration.

[@shiva102fps]

I see Milo AND Mike and I know I'm going to come out smarter 🫡

[@jmidnite114]

Dr Mike please if you have any info can you help. I am that anomaly that you talked about at 19m in the video. I am 55 and been working out since 17. I maintained between 200 and 220 lb with about 10% body fat. I am now 170 lb and I never got sore all the years working out. But now only with legs I am sore for days and seriously like doing only warm up sets and I am extremely sore. I am a veteran and only go to the VA hospital and they are idiots. This is going on for years and they have no answer. They are clueless and my way of life has changed so much. I can trip over small rocks that are like 2 inches big. It's really depressing that no one know why my legs are not growing and yet my upper body gets nice and pumped and I can push and not get sore

[@cthulhuhpl]

I guess that Frieza on the right learnt a things or two from Goku. I better listen.

[@lollihonk]

Are there muscle groups where sore isnt that strong? F.e. glutes?

[@MistaJones89]

In the case that performance is indicative how recovered a muscle is - if I go to the gym and notice that my first working set my performance has noticeably dropped from the last time, should I stop working out that muscle and swap it out for another muscle that workout?

[@InfinityExt]

So what was the conclusion or consensus

[@7Sabbath7]

More soreness comes from more volume or at longer muscle lengths because your muscles are getting damaged. Muscle damage is not good for muscle growth

[@grsmustard9139]

Dr Mike summed it up within the first 5 minutes. Its all waffle after that.

[@magne6049]

You should do a study on DOMS of newbie weightlifters that have been on the carnivore or keto diet for a while (vs. a control of newbie weightlifters on a regular diet). To see if they experience DOMS as much as newbie weightlifters generally do. I suspect they won't, and that DOMS is an inflammatory response that is increased as a result of an inflammatory diet (i.e. a normal western diet).

[@Valentindk]

No evidense for soreness and muscle growth, at any study

[@andrijajanfranjcec6888]

Incredible