Titanforge Podcast 200 - Healing, 10.2.5, and Darkheart Thicket w/ Ellesmere

[@Drew71707]

Re: Tettles’ popularity question, as a civilian, the dungeons allow cruising through 20s and are generally way more fun as a baseline. You also don’t feel the need to have an aug in every single vault key.

[@lalalallaallala]

Feels a bit lackluster that they are the new +15

[@skipmcilvaine]

Did Ellsmere call in from his tin can and string?

[@Caseman984]

Grats on 200, nerds.

[@Elmon11]

11:39 For what it's worth as someone who stops at the 20 key level. Spot healing is the difference between a successful key. Players at that range are decent at their spec. Not the best about using defensives unless the healer dies. But Pain Supp or sometimes even just committing a rapture are more then enough. But I'm also a believer that meta almost matters more in the middle playerbase range.

[@Donovanlefferts]

Ironically, I’ve had a couple healers yell at me for tossing a word of glory on low health teammates, as ret. But it’s more than made up for by all the healers who thank me for tossing out WoGs, Freedom the healer on entangled or the tank on Everbloom plants, using Shield of Vengeance on what feels like cooldown, etc haha I definitely concur that doing small things to help the healer has been the key to my pugging success.

[@wgcdrelliot8989]

@@DonovanleffertsI don’t know what healers you play with, but recently i had a ret who threw sac almost on cd, used defensives well, clutched with a couple of lohs, i will cherish the memory of this ret until the day i die

[@quintit]

lol i always feel like im undermining the healer whenever I wog ppl@@Donovanlefferts

[@rick5787]

On the first boss in DHT. The healer can stand outside of the boss room and will get the charge every time. It will not do damage to them or the group. We found this out by accident, when a heals stopped to drink outside and we pulled. We have done this every run since.

[@Xiloscient7]

To Trell's Tip of the week. I know first boss of DHT if I have a mage barrier up when he leaps at me it doesn't apply the bleed. Don't know if it works for every shield. Being a mage you can never get the bleed if you have a good defensive rotation. Oooo, I need to test that with the 3% hp blink shield talent. That would make it even easier.

[@ArizonaBreakdown]

Ellesmere didn't actually leave the call, he just went non verbal

[@HoGirth]

Flying through the green orbs for whelplings crests are goated. Had a few meetings I had to sit through yesterday and ended the morning with 450.

[@TheDarkRival]

"The difference between h paly and mistweaver is the biggest I've ever seen it". What which side is that exactly? Standing on the mist weaver side it seems like they've been that far behind quite a few times

[@riddermark1398]

Yeah ellesmere statement here is objectively false

[@Kouros_ttv]

Quick tip: warlocks can also freedom themselves with empowered demonic circle to clear roots on 2nd boss.

[@Defenestrationed]

Can they do more than one? I thought they just get the one break and it costs a shard.

[@Kouros_ttv]

@@Defenestrationed yeah basically you can get a "freedom" buff that lasts 5-6(?) Seconds and you run over nearly every set of roots . I think you can do 2 out of every 3 sets . But you can physically soak every root each time.

[@MaarcD]

52:15 I remember doing a 15 for weekly on waycrest back in BFA, bolstering week. Back then you could click a flower or something in the fountain (someone did) which summons a special witch related to some achievement. The witch summons dogs or flowers that didn't scale with key level, so they die really quick and bolster the witch. Even worst, not all doors were open, so this raid boss was on the way, with no way to skip it. Couldn't recall the ending of the key.

[@Relativizor]

I don't know what was done in the affix analysis, but typically, you'd want to compare the variation within a group (in this case, a group is a particular week) against the variance between the groups. This lets you figure out if any of the groups deviate, but not which group. You then typically run some post-hoc analysis for figuring out the state of the individual groups. There's some subtle details in the setup of such a study though, and you have to be somewhat careful.

[@wgcdrelliot8989]

My hot take is to remove infinite scaling and cap keys a +30, so we would have a race to world first 30, and the rewards would be front loaded. There would be a separate title for people who timed every 30 on both weeks. And a title for 25s. So for example if you are in top 1000 people to clear all 25s on both weeks. So instead of ranking top players on io, the system would rank them on speed and skill.

[@solotopp]

28 to 30 mins convo, it's funny because the problem you guys talk about with pressing w in a dungeon is good for low level keys and pugs. The simpkicity of pressing w makes it more accesible. That and the better dungeon pool is why I think this season is more popular.

[@Kevmoeman]

Going non verbal

[@Bublo_]

Even the dungeon follower npcs type

[@tristendesjarlais7627]

@tettles have you played a preservation evoker??? spot hesling and through put are terrible. personnaly capped at level 25 keys on my pres resto druid doing 28s

[@alexanderfullard4107]

Haven’t listed yet but was this before or after the whole spat with nerf

[@lumingaming]

Are there any egregious mobs other than dreadpettles? Feels like it’s just the one, and if you remove on death affixes from dread petals, should probably triple the amount of other mobs in the dungeon or you’re fighting 200 petals a cultivator, a naturalist and four bosses

[@tristendesjarlais7627]

i full hearted agree with the statement of one weekly affix and a seasonal

[@kayladecant7332]

7:55 betrayed the Pink class in SL S3/4 as well! Dark days indeed

[@highgrade9]

Has anyone else gotten the bug where you are out of the corrupted ground and still get ticked by it. It was happening all the time.

[@adamadamadam83]

I strongly disagree about how the timers should be the limiting factor. I think the fact that timers are more forgiving is one of the reasons that people are having more fun this season. I much rather my pugs fall apart because the key can't be done and not because someone thinks we aren't going to time.

[@quintit]

Id rather the timer just start from 0 and have a cutoff where the loot is nerfed. Idk what they can do because people in 15-20s just leave after 2 wipes no matter what.

[@chidatv1602]

Mic off?

[@thetimobern]

1:22:17 You can clear all the roots with MW Invoke Chi-Ji if you still have crane out

[@ThomasAbe]

Can you explain with more detail, please?

[@flashyhooves1710]

@@ThomasAbe When you have Chi-Ji up you are root immune. It works the same like paladin freedom on Oakheart.

[@jakedaasnake7197]

The great vault idea that Ellesmere had is such a good idea

[@mitchellkraemer9099]

Ive wiped twice on bosses in weekly 20s and still times the key. Its super easy to push a higher number than you ever have. 30:24

[@mattconte1345]

What if they just tuned it each season so certain dungeons were more 'fortified' and others more 'tyrannical' and removed the affixes? Would allow you to run different builds across the pool, and then allow blizz to tune mechanics more accurately without those modifiers week to week.

[@Restoleum]

Oh man, talk about affix oversight. You guys remember your first time pulling the "Acolyte Hall" after the Lantern Boss, during a higher key of HoA with Explosive Affix? Kekw

[@wowsew]

CHADMERE. good video dudes. Stoaked for it

[@rokman5000]

I'm in the get rid of affixes camp. The system is already infinitely scaling so it will get hard enough for everyone at some point.

[@johnMa7869]

I would agree with tettles here, that every healer can heal through the required checks even at very height keys, but it comes down to the difficulty of doing that. A resto shaman is going to have a more difficult time than a resto Druid, yet they can still run the same keylevel. I think for someone like resto shaman it's more difficult because survivability comes into play at some point.

[@tien5tri]

the only week my shaman gets to come out is during afflicted week. the mastery and the poison cleanse totem makes it quite EZ. Every other week i just shelf him... so funny that I randomly got a mythic leaf trink on my shaman :(

[@lumingaming]

so we’re told only three healers maybe 3 1/2 can keep up with a necessary throughput for high keys. But then we’re also told that the focus isn’t on throughput, but should be. I’m not sure they have fully fleshed out this thought.

[@EllesmereGaming]

When I say the focus isn’t on throughput in keys, I’m referring to damage, not healing.

[@lumingaming]

@@EllesmereGaming my mistake, the segment was about healing and I must've crossed my wires. That idea sounds more like Shadowlands keys though. Individual throughput checks sure let's do that. But I'm not sure too many are quick to return to one wipe bricking their key vs the timer.

[@Joogiabi]

@@EllesmereGaming was a great episode man

[@insatiablemop3274]

the answer to the why is this a popular m+ tier even though its full of big scary one shots is that the one shots actually dont even start killing you till like 23s maybe and probably even higher than that. You can just zug zug and ignore everything into way higher keys than before so the early 20s keys levels are way more accessible. complain all you want about what is throttling the highest keys being done but this type of season is far more welcoming to the majority of the player base. The highest keys get throttled at some point anyway, may as well get more people participating.

[@PatrickQT]

I dont get the "nerf discs the damage is way too high". If you check logs, disc does like 50-70k overall and thats mainly from trinkets like Gnarled Root. I can do easily the same dmg with my druid without getting heal from DPS abilities. So basically from dotting on healing downtimes while on the disc I have to spam DMG all key long and with healing throughput trinkets its like 40-50k overall. That doesnt seem high at all even compared to the other healers and certainly not compared to regular dps (300k dps+)

[@mattschulstad162]

You could literally remove the fort and tyrannical affixes and just buff everything by half of each of those affixes as a baseline

[@SunniestAutumn]

I think upping the M+ vault ceiling from +15 to +20 was a mistake. All it did was make everyone feel like they have to do +20's instead of +15's, but this is the first season where the difficulty matches. +20's in Dragonflight season 3 are about the same as +15's were for the most of Shadowlands. People like having their "minumum required keys" be breeze and people who like to push beyond that enjoy challenge, but in order to get the challenge those people usually got from +20's, you now have to do at least a +23 to get.

[@kayladecant7332]

9:29 nah man, presevoker has tons of throughput. other issues keep it out of the upper sphere - of which there are plenty

[@EllesmereGaming]

I disagree, I don’t see a prevoker being capable of 29 tyran everbloom yalnu for example. I’d be happen to be proven wrong though

[@RicksonGM]

we have throughput when our small CDs are up but our casts are so slow, we just can't match the speed and avaliability of heals other healers have. our DR is super minimal too

[@wgcdrelliot8989]

Your take was so shit you managed to make Ellesmere respond to it haha

[@guilhermebarbosa5398]

Why blizz cant balance all the specs? I just cant understand

[@guilhermebarbosa5398]

Gotcha, but you cant put a ferrari and a volkswagen fusca (go search it) on the same race, i belive that all the specs should be able to do competitive dmg, i dont care if havoc is averaging 250k overall, i just want arms, feral affliction to be able to do at least 220-230k dmg.

[@guilhermebarbosa5398]

@threedoubleyoudotcom751 but i understand your point

[@johannilsson6395]

Easy answer is that probably most devs are focused on next expac.

[@Hipodil]

I think the reason why keys are ran more is because of the lenient timers.

[@James_Johnson79]

Lenient timers, far less wild rot damage, most one-shots can be CC’d or interrupted, only 3 dungeons have really painful run backs and of those only 1 (darkheart) lacks a checkpoint further in. It’s just a good season. I get that you can always have complaints and critiques but overall this has been the best season so far for the just regular player that wants to get in, press W and have fun doing the key. If you’re a crazy router that just wants to figure out all the skips each dungeon and work around all the affixes then it’s probably a pretty boring one.

[@adrosmart]

surely at some point in M+ instead of things hitting harder they just start reducing the timer

[@kekelapp0r]

Any tips for staying verbal?

[@John-r-Evans]

just remembed necrotic of the bats in BRH lol 1

[@exhaustedua6659]

I’m a guy who plays healer every time it’s bursting because I can pop off 😂

[@Nickystr1x]

Assa + aug would be much better for damage but assa doesn't live everything that outlaw does

[@deesul4134]

I'm ok i guess with 2 affixes a week, maybe. but i think affixes are only needed because of scaling issues. Affixes take fun out of the dungeons

[@superninja4526]

They should just try removing fort and tyran during fated?

[@Kittsuera]

Idea, replace tyrannical scaling with giving the bosses an extra mechanic, or an extra mechanic is active during the boss fight.

[@mrbigglsworth]

28:35 "If you can blow through the dungeon, pack by pack, and chest the key, that's not good. That's bad design." I'm not sure if I could disagree with something more than this statement. I'm a civilian (CE raider, don't go above 21s/22s ever) and I _love_ how puggable 20s are and how easily I can grab a group of friends (including alts) and complete weeklies for vaults.

[@EllesmereGaming]

I agree with you but I was referencing very high keys. Keys at the 20-22 level have always been chestable pulling pack by pack in a clean run

[@AmanitaMuscarias]

Mistweaver through put is still insane in both raid and keys.

[@sylv8639]

"imagine if they applied that same philosophy to dps tuning" cries in ret paladin

[@ryanbaldacchino4001]

Affixes are in a state of not bringing any value to the key. They're more annoying and frustrating than fun or interesting to deal with. Also tyrannical should be changed, doesn't increase hp or damage of the mob, but puts a specific raid mechanic on the bosses per dungeon, so the mechanic can be tailored to the dungeon itself, so we don't get shit situations that are unfair overlaps.

[@baseboned]

I think the tyran/fort is good, I think the problem is "infinite scaling". You just have to cap the scaling at some point. Maybe above 25 you start taking time from the timer instead of scaling.

[@patrick2657]

Maybe it's because I was mostly tanking but as someone who did "those low keys" during prideful I don't remember it nearly as fondly as Dratnos seems to think we all do. The buff was fun but spawning it at 20% was obnoxious as it locked you to certain routes and if someone pulled something extra it threw everything off.

[@knico7074]

Make Aug a tank please Blizz

[@Locust66]

Im just never going to push keys, I enjoy blasting and having fun. I'll just keep doing 18s on all my alts all week and keep having fun instead of hating the game. Wish blizzard would learn from whats been said for the last 2 expansions regarding mythic plus complication.

[@danielschultz96]

They should just apply the spiteful logic of capping at level 20 or 25 or something to shield/add phases of dung boss fights

[@Rhordric]

Hope they bring in follower dungeon tech to alleviate leaver issues

[@HowNowBrownCow69]

Dratnos is the king of Uh

[@baseboned]

disc isn't doing "absurd damage". THAT'S WHAT THEY DO.

[@HannahHodson28]

An aspect of the popularity spike is the inflation in society is making WoW an affordable outlet for repeatable fun.

[@michaelbarnwell3017]

Dratnos: "I don't like an RNG myth track proc from keys." Also Dratnos: "I'm perfectly happy with the current system, which is RNG proc from GV." The people who are basically fully BIS 6 weeks into a patch (looking at most of them here) will always complain about any type of change to the system, even when it's objectively worse like from S2 to S3. Max's advice is always on point: who the F cares about the top end people, they'll do degenerate shyte regardless. Make the game fun for the rest of the 99% and it'll be fine.

[@MrBageltv]

Drama?

[@guffels]

I will never tolerate positive talk about prideful. That affix was way too punishing in low keys for bad routes and the dungeons were too heavily tuned around the prideful buff. It was a bad affix for mid tier players.

[@Raynhardx]

Not sure if it's good to ask for perfect balance. Especially if you only look at the top .X% of playerbase. If you do that you end up with cool abilities like PI nerfed and classes feeling more similar the more blizzard tries to even things out. I play with a friend - we are holy priest + ele shaman. Perfectly happy clearing 23 keys.

[@razzg_]

Dont try to sleepwalk + poly in dht skip Keeper will just go back to his original position as a sheep

[@budlifegreenhouse]

I love holy pally crying it soooo good

[@gulbla4370]

I don't really mind the "hard" affixes, but the annoying, zero fun ones like storming and afflicted I fucking hate.

[@trogger93]

Make dungeons above a 20 reduce the timer by 30 seconds each level, rather than increasing hp / damage. Boom.

[@somebodyelse9696]

Watching this while I’m non verbal

[@CeilingPanda]

IDK man, if you put top 0.001% of players in a key and say don't die and they will ofc do amazing damage, then it is fine to time a key IMO.

[@baseboned]

season 2 was harder in keys under 20 and the dungeons were worse. And Aberrus/Zaralec wasn't as good or interesting as Amirdressil/Emerald Dream. I think that's a lot of the statistical difference in play time.

[@gpm135]

Dratnos thinking low level key ppl want variance in there mplus with affixes because their bored yet these same ppl run the same raid bosses over and over and over with no variance added. Sigh, no one likes restricted affixes that cater to certain classes and ignores others.

[@cerberar]

Xavius is just a terrible boss that needs to be looked it. The hitbox on these circles needs to be cut by a lot

[@nax1009]

why play holy? cuz its fucking cool :3

[@handsomebear.]

Affixes are incredibly annoying in low keys _(9-15)_ because nobody does them correctly. In mid keys (20~) they're just a tedium. I've never understood why everyone is aping the _"it makes the dungeons feel soooo different and fresh guise I pwomise hurr hurr 🤪"_ cope... As someone who has liked pugging dungeons since WotLK, I hard disagree. They come in the way of everything that I find fun with dungeons (and m+ for that matter). That is, pre-m+ learning the dungeon and enjoying playing it on new specs/builds that have different utility etc. and on m+ learning and mastering ways to tackle the increasing difficulty. Having to interrupt your rotation because of volcanic, or having to interrupt your rotation and waste a global on a ghost, or having to interrupt your rotation to move from tornadoes, etc. etc. isn't fun. It's annoying. For those who just inherently don't enjoy dungeons, having some annoying affix happen to them every week isn't going to change that lol. And for those who just play so much that they _actually_ get bored of the dungeon, 2 things: 1. Blizzard should make dungeons that last a bit longer, design them to have interesting route choices _(almost all DF dungeon route choices are incredibly obvious depending on if you're in a PuG or organized grp)_ and add more little tricks you can make use of like _more_ class/profession/role buffs/whatever, little events or things to click that give you some kind of small advantage and/or additional challenge etc. etc. 2. just take a break from wow or go play an alt, if you're not enjoying playing your character, affixes aren't going to fix that. It's just a cheap bandaid that give players the illusion of diversity to have them play more and sub for longer.

[@Testifiable]

I'm a minute in and Elle looks mint in that suite

[@carteks1]

I will never not agree that last season was miserable cause of all the healing problems. I healed and didn’t play Hpal and it was just miserable.

[@quintit]

Bro i love the corrections of "casuals" to "regular key doers" like its taboo on the level of the r word lmfao

[@crazyphoenickss]

I dislike his take, as I don't care for throughput checks kinda things, nor tighter timers. I enjoyed Season 3's very lenient timers because it just doesn't matter, then, and you can actually take your time and complete the key without worrying about anything besides dying. I also play very casually, not competitively, either, and I do up to +18s, tops. In the 12-18 bracket there are a lot of mediocre players who don't know how to do anything including interrupt. Maybe as higher keys go where the players know what they're doing, it's a different story, but again, coming from a casual player it just doesn't feel good with tighter timers, regardless of the dungeon, mob count, etc. The more lenient the timer the more relaxed the group can be and therefore the more fun it is for a casual player. Again, this is coming from a casual player who doesn't enjoy keys and just pushes them for IO score up to 2k for the gear and all. I understand from his perspective, but from mine tighter timers and all of that makes it even less fun to participate in meaning players like myself won't even push to that high at all. I only did so this season literally just because of how lenient it was, how easy it was. I do enjoy and share his opinion on simplifying things including affixes and going to even less affixes, that's totally fine. I disagree with seasonal affixes coming back, though, as an actual seasonal affix. I do want the seasonal affixes, themselves, to be back. Like, I want Encrypted to come back as a regular affix in the rotation and many other seasonal affixes. The only seasonal affix I've disliked was prideful and thundering, that's it. I hated prideful, hated hated hated it so bad.

[@AmanitaMuscarias]

Content gets boring about three months in. It would be nice if Blizzard would shorten content cycles to 3 to 4 months instead of 6.

[@treecat125]

Why not play another game when WoW gets boring?

[@AmanitaMuscarias]

@@treecat125 , I do every tier.

[@Banjoofdeath]

Sadge warrior😭

[@aneilson]

basedmere

[@Skiptoomyl0u]

Tettles' healing takes are just so uninformed. Wish more wow pods had healers on to fix the takes of players who have never healed but feel the need to comment on it consistently.

[@zacebbflo]

How long till someone makes a nonverbal joke?

[@zacebbflo]

1:42 got it

[@thatepicwizardguy]

No Aug comps are faster -> everybody above them on leaderboard doing Aug. hm... well on that note I'm going nonverbal.

[@nathkin3933]

"We also dont need a warrior this week". lol sadge warriors

[@ryanburzumato]

Nonverbal gamer

[@kayladecant7332]

10:26 Also there’s a logical inconsistency: it cannot be both “One shot” problems and “throughput” problems. If it’s a true one shot, then no throughput would save you. If you’re saying “push the bars up or else the mechanics will kill you from 80 to zero” then yes it’s throughput but not a one-shot questions. Gonna go ahead and X out of this video before I ruin my Friday nitpicking every 2 minutes 😅

[@prestonrasmussen1758]

That isn't a logical inconsistency problem, a healer can have problems with throughput and problems keeping the group alive through one shots. It turns out there are 8 dungeons with 4+ bosses a piece and tons of trash as well. So different things can be the breaking point across dungeons and even across pulls within a dungeon. Also "one shot" problems can both be problems helping the group not die through a one shot, and also burst ST healing after a player uses a defensive to survive a one shot so they don't die through rot dmg. And healing through rot and burst single target healing are different, and since both are present this season in demanding settings then you need a healer that can do both.

[@OlliSurac]

Tyrannical should also have increased pacing on boss mechanics and attacks instead of strictly damage and hp

[@crazyphoenickss]

I also don't like how Holy Paladins are complaining, either. You know what? You had infinite mana for like 6 expansions now. Literally not ever running OOM for 99.9% if not 100% of every raid tier of every expansion for 6 expansions or so. Get over yourselves for being bad for 1 literal raid tier. You know every other healer was mad at you guys for not being OOM or being able to go OOM every raid or dungeon fight unlike most other healers or all other healers. Also, you guys complain about HPS, guess what; PALADINS AREN'T MEANT TO HAVE HIGH HPS!! You have 10 times the amount of utility of literally every other healer in this game and yet that's not enough that you have the balls to complain about not being able to top the HPS charts. Nobody cares about your HPS, you bring the best utility in this game, stop treading on the HPS healers' areas, or go reroll. It's amazing the amount of entitlement that players who main or play HPally's have. It really is. You guys even got a rework when nobody else actually got a rework, and no, Disco Priest did not get an actual rework. They got rotation reduction, which doesn't really qualify as an actual rework to the spec. Again, get over yourselves, your frustration with your spec is what every other healer goes through, especially when raid healing with you guys. Why? Because you never went OOM before, and now you get to go OOM. Welcome to every other healer. Meetings are on Thursdays.

[@Luxumbra69]

Wouldn't be surprised if nerf quits wow after all this feedback. Surprised it took so long for someone to call out his childish behavior.

[@Sykiii]

last season dungeons were ugly

[@JpDeltell]

Can we have less whiny guests please? 🙃

[@meista69]

35:00 I have to disagree with the tyran and fort being healthy at lower keys, I was on my 460 shadow priest doing a 21 key and the pack literally didn’t live long enough for my cds, I’m a big fan of the somewhere in between fort and tyran

[@user-ws9di5kp9h]

Best part of every Friday.

[@user-ws9di5kp9h]

Somone tell tettles I’m still outside his window.