GHB '23!! Seraphon vs Soulblight Gravelords - Warhammer: Age of Sigmar Battle Report

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[@assistantref5084]

Whoever designed the Starborne half of Seraphon needs to be gently but firmly moved to some role that better fits their skillset. It's not even that it's overpowered so much as it's just bad design. It's like someone was designing the player character for a single-player computer game and thought "then I'll let him do this! and this! and this! it's gonna be so cool!" without thinking that there's another player on the receiving end. Even if it was balanced...it wouldn't be a good way to design a two-person game. Nobody likes feeling like they're the NPC. When your best defense is "hope they miscast" that ought to have been a signal to the designer to go back to the drawing board and come up with a more interactive army design.

[@ungabungacaveman9021]

I feel that way about so much of AoS. A friend of mine runs an SBGL list with 170 zombies there’s literally nothing to be done about it they took an easy 5-0 at a GT we just went to. SBGL, seraphon, OBR, KO to an extent. It just doesn’t feel good to play against them as a combat army.

[@assistantref5084]

@@ungabungacaveman9021 That illustrates a different issue with AOS game design IMO, namely the frequent tendency to make spam overpowered compared to mixed lists. From subfactions often built around buffing a specific subset of the unit roster, to power pair synergies that reward you for going heavy in one direction...there is a real tendency in the rules design to encourage you to double down on a specific strategy, rather than rewarding you for building a mixed force. Good game design should penalize spam with diminishing returns, not reward it with increased efficiency. To take the SBGL example...what if, instead of being able to rez each dead unit, you could only rez a given warscroll once per game? One destroyed unit of zombies, one of skeletons, one of grave guard, one of doggos, etc. Suddenly you'd have a mechanism that punished spam by reducing its efficiency. Would zombies still be overpowered? Maybe. But at least you'd have a design system that naturally discourages people from spamming them.

[@ryanihl]

All of everything said in this thread hits home for me right now. I love AoS but the game is in a bad place with these last release of books. It's not just the win records of those 4 armies but the fact they're winning with perfect scores. Even if win rates are not completely out of whack it's because the rock paper scissors element of the game is the worst it's ever been. Imagine null myriad OBR against this seraphon list. Seraphon would lose much worse than soulblight.

[@olafolafsson2755]

The armies at the top only have such a "healthy" winrate about 55% because they are keeping each other in check. Also the 3 4 armies on top are so strong that other quite OP Battletomes seem kinda okay... which is a joke. Why arent there any point adjustments. The Khorne and Slaanesh books are out there for month now. If you looked at any list review video or article of the past weeks you can see how idiotic the new lists have become. I couldnt even come for "fun-games" with some of my older 2k lists because there is no fun if my army just get mortal wounded from the table without anything I can do about it. Imagine if I come with my Deepkin army to the next event. just lol. The game is in a very bad spot. I have 3 upcoming competetive events this summer - my motivation is srsly at the lowest it has ever been in AoS Compare some older books from this edition with the new ones. its just sad. Stardrake 500pkt or Turtle 460 or Even Ogor Lord on Mammoth which nobody plays 400pkt While Khornes Bloodthirster with his priest traits, ward shut off and 3d6 charges just comes to the party for 330 pkt. Who the hell invented this?! xD

[@rcmwalker1987]

AoS was in a really good place... But the last selection of books has been crazy. It a real shame.

[@johnd8613]

Very brave of Jordan to bring 20 Blood Knights vs the trog bomb

[@TheArmchairPatriot]

As a dedicated Kastelai player & Blood Knights lover I really enjoyed seeing your list! Really hoping you guys do another battle report with Kastelai again soon, preferably against something without such crushing mortal wound spam.

[@brandonjramos]

Wow that seraphim army really looks like it isn’t fun to play against. You could tell Jordan wasn’t having any fun. 😢

[@aaronravenwood2039]

Can confirm using anything that isn't BoK against it is just a bad time. So far I've played against it once but was able to get the win on account of all my foot troops being in the grave. Lost all of my foot heros turn 1 but VLoZD and neferata were able to heal up reliably and stay in the game. 15/10 would not recommend.

[@Knight_Loki]

Holy shit, I saw the views and didn't think much but I liked the lizardfolks so I clicked. This production quality is better than many many other warhammer channels, especially Auspex Tactics. Will be watching

[@SeasonofWar]

Thanks for the support - glad you enjoyed the vid!

[@saschaorth5631]

I'd actually like a rematch of those two factions after the full update now. ;) This game exists in a weird, very short lived point in time. ;)

[@petercacciamani9634]

Jordan, it's nice to see that even a great player like you have brain farts! LOL. It happens to all of us. Lizards seem oppressive, sorta NPE. Dropping 20+ mortals on you from Kroak is just crazy.

[@SeasonofWar]

Haha, they're all too common 😅 but yeah air of armies are gonna struggle against this kind of Seraphon list

[@BattleDuelists]

Seraphon just looks very overwhelming, lord kroak is a god unit for 395 points

[@NexUtInfinitus]

A lord of change is 400pts, kairos 440… and neither comes close to Kroak.

[@Baragon999]

Update it went 410

[@johangrenier6016]

if you outdrop kroak bomb go first every time. This way you can flood the board and score all the primarie while negating the spaces where the troglodon could be. you can also create layers of screens and put your important units 9" behind so only zombies/skeletons would die to his spells. The big flaw of kroakbomb archetype is a very poor board presence and the gimmick can be easily prevented (deploy important suff 9" behind screens).

[@capnredbeard6553]

Great to have case back on the voice over

[@jonathanwhyborne3031]

Great music. Great report.

[@melchoriuz8116]

it will become a magic heavy or anti magic army season. Interesting times.

[@thegrayestofsons8079]

The painting handle for the stand for the Slann 😂😂😂

[@Kollider115]

If im right, on the turn where the bastiladon killed the Skeletons, skeleton rez doesnt state which turn you rez, so every combat phase they get models back, so they for sure would have on average got 13 models back from the damage of stomps and so on.

[@SeasonofWar]

Yep - you're right! We were basically considering the game over at that point though so I must have just forgotten :(

[@LeviathanOmega]

Wait. Based on the map and intro....Wizard Lizards in a Blizzard. You went there.

[@SeasonofWar]

And truly a Merciless Blizzard in fact :[

[@aaronpowell8398]

Kroak and this GHB will be the best marketing GW has done for 40K 10th edition. Worked on me…

[@timbroughton560]

Very fun match, rematch vs. Null Myriad!!

[@SeasonofWar]

Someone's definitely gonna get that punishment for being too mean with the magic 😂

[@Copperbagel]

Seraphon is probably one of my favorite AOS armies

[@Copperbagel]

in order of collecting, not favorite 1. Stormcast 2. Skaven (Range refresh please?!) 3. Seraphon 4. Disciples of Tzeentch 5. Beasts of Chaos 6. Tregara

[@Nubgan]

Watching 2 casting armies go at each other in this new GHB is going to be bonkers. Not sure whether I want to carry on maining LRL or not through this season. Although it does make the little guys way better and makes the army less reliant on Teclis potentially for Protection.

[@eliasclinton3474]

Where did you dudes get that sweet sweet mat? Is that deepcut?

[@leejesm]

Battlescroll update: The seraphon army is barely illegal at 2005 points. SBGL is illegal at 2080 points...

[@leejesm]

They also got a nerf to their grave site recursion. Have to place outside of 9 in. in the enemy's turn.

[@salva4777]

I’d love to see the trogbomb list do against lumineth, Nagash or some anti magic list

[@SeasonofWar]

Oh don't worry, that's going to be Ridge's punished soon

[@Klerik131]

It wouldn't matter about lumineth or nagash, they arent in range to dispell before everything is dead

[@olliej111]

@Klerik131 they get a 5+ ward though which at least takes away 33% of the mortals.

[@kalebwalters]

Lets go :) Magic Time!!!!!!!!!!!

[@zacknettles1540]

How are you casting x4 spells through Trog? If this is 23 ruleset isn't he nerfed into the version where only allowed "one per phase"?

[@SeasonofWar]

This game was filmed & released before the FAQ that changed that - but you are correct!

[@SquishyFishies]

Please what is the name of the song for soulblight turn 1 i need this!

[@jonr655]

You must go first against the Trogbomb list if possible. Get your units onto objectives, try to screen out key units, and get into dispel range with some primal dice. Then hold tight! I know most people in here are complaining, but that list is definitely beatable. This was just a worst case scenario that started when Jordan gave the turn away in round 1(No offense intended, Jordan. We all fear the double). Well, it really started when he picked Kastelai..... I used to love Blood Knights so much, but now they're just pretty to look at. 😀

[@Rave.-]

RIP Trog Bomb. You will be missed (and cause far less PTSD).

[@brucemontgomery2789]

I’d say it will only be missed by Seraphon players. Kind of mind boggling how they wrote those rules, published them in a book, and did not realize the potential combinations.

[@Rave.-]

@@brucemontgomery2789 found the PTSD

[@Jesyce86]

Seraphon has always been this toxic, people just forgot lol

[@piixable]

I also hate Seraphon in this season. I normally love Melee (thats why I started AOS) but this season half of my army is range so I can knock out Kroak from far away. The bomb skill is so broken and doesnt make fun to play against.

[@adamjamesstudio]

Kastellai is, tbf, arguably one of the worst of the subfactions. LoB, LoN and Vyrkos have much more utility and power. Also blood knights took quite the nerf, and without Nef to give 3+ unrendable they are a lot of points not bringing a lot to the table. Feel like would have benefitted from 10 less blood knights and Cado & instead a VLoZD or Vhordrai.

[@Hedonite]

Honestly yea. I love blood knights, and as fun as it is to run then in kastelai(they become battleline as you know) lob is just better in every single way. And it's still possible to squeeze some bk in so yea :/

[@Klerik131]

The worst part is that isnt even a particularly strong seraphon MW output list. With different spell loudouts, with that SBGL deployment, they could have been almost tabled in turn 1 magic phase

[@neil9525]

How come you didn’t rally the big Blood Knight unit in SBG turn 2? Wouldn’t have changed the outcome and had 2CP left over at the end of the turn, so seemed like an error???

[@SeasonofWar]

Might have just forgotten at the moment and missed the window to use it

[@CelebrintaR]

Could someone achieve count of mortal wounds do Kroak, Slann, Troglodon and Realmshaper in the game? Really appreciate!

[@ChuckyXD]

T1: 30 T2: 20(Spells)+11(CCP Ability) T3: 12(Blizzard)+23(Spells)+10(CCP Ability)

[@CelebrintaR]

@@ChuckyXD Thanks! 106 mw in 3 rounds its balanced! All hail hypnotoad!

[@Samurai123IDK]

Whats the name of the song at 10:15?

[@SlothV3553]

Im pretty sure I read that the trog bomb got heavy nerferd right? please tell me it got nerfed...

[@SeasonofWar]

It did, thankfully!

[@valorcalls]

Cado can't actually be in the wizard finders of andtor battalion. He's both unique and a wizard, either of which deny him the ability to be in that battalion (and unique denies him being in the acolytes one as well). Very interested in what this season has in store!

[@SeasonofWar]

I think it was meant to be the Vampire Lord - but good catch!

[@valorcalls]

@@SeasonofWar There isn't actually a hero in that army who can lead that battalion, since all 3 are wizards. You'd need to sub someone out for a wight king on foot to do it with sbgl

[@SeasonofWar]

Ooooh I missed that final subtext - thanks for the heads up! Thankfully it didn't have any real impact on this match.

[@mjlaufgr]

But if you play an incredibly narrow army that loses to everything else, you have a better than average chance of beating Trogbomb!

[@d.c.4545]

Seraphon starborne reminds a lot of SOB a while back. They weren't top tier at the time but they were a gate keeper army that only the top tier could deal with. Seraphon is great at stomping mid tier and below armies but I've seen it fold so many times to other top tier Armies. I can't wait to see more of this new GHB. I hope you pull out the warsong bomb at some point and store up 6 primal dice at the bottom of the round and nuke half an army. Greatest Timmy moment ever. Not a great battle report probably 😂.

[@SeasonofWar]

Guess what army our next GHB '23 match features ;)

[@red-undead-plays6525]

What can any army even do against Seraphon... 😢

[@ungabungacaveman9021]

This season feels like it’s going to be “play a top army or have a bad time” I might honestly skip events for the next year as an S2D player.

[@axelhinze3844]

MAybe tzeetch can survive... otherwise it feels just pure imba filth and with the new book there is no weathering the storm but winning on points anymore. 20+ MW per round from kroak?!? sounds like fun

[@tomaszlucjusz113]

Just play Khorne or OBR (Null Myriad), easy ;-)

[@axelhinze3844]

@@tomaszlucjusz113 Working for the GDubs Sales Team, I see… 🤣

[@adamjamesstudio]

Be one drop, hope you get first turn, take nullstone dust pouch and try to be in their grill turn 1. Seraphon are the worst.

[@LeonBleak]

can't wait to go to a tourney and half the people have seraphon and the otehr half Null Miriad, it's gonna be crap, until it balances out

[@shinufilms]

i saw kroak and a slann, just tuned out. i played against a similar list with ogors and game was over turn 2. Way too oppressive honestly.

[@godlyness2811]

Why didnt jorden spend x if not all his primal dice to deny mystic shield on the trogg turn 1. This denys the battle tactic and was prolly the only spell you could deny. Still losing ofc. But denying points is denying points.

[@ruleofkoolwargaming4926]

Why do they continue to make kroak so powerful and so damn cheap?

[@CelebrintaR]

Why Seraphon completed the Battle Tactic first turn if failed one spell?

[@SeasonofWar]

It has to be unbound, naturally failed spells are fine!

[@kylecook5996]

Troggbomb is nuts! How do you even play against it unless you're running an anti-magic army or something like that??

[@SeasonofWar]

Screen & blast em!? X|

[@elijahramos3898]

Ridge, you daredevil, not taking Comet's Call on the Slann! Blizzard seems super fun though. Always interesting to see how we tailor lists differently, loving Fangs right now personally cause Rapatadon Chargers are the freakin truth! Also loving the endless spells this ghb. A couple of nerfs (portal, bridge), but so many glowups. Big fan of new shackles myself, only wish it comboed with jaws (but probably for the best it doesn't). I wanna trap someone's Gotrek so badly with them lol Great game to watch as always though. The might of Starborne is back, baby!! It is a glass cannon though, if you mess up your castle you could lose everything so fast. But as long as you have your heroes you're in the game.

[@RidgeHanna]

Elijah! What's up brother. Yeah good points, Starborne is super strong but I agree, can be glass if not screened properly and your castle isnt secure. Also if Jordan would have won 3 prio that would have been a much more interesting game. But yeah, the starborne lists seem quite one-dimensional and some armies just can't deal with them. I just finished 5 Raptadon Chargers and pumped to get them on. Also built all the Agradons and a Spawn of Chotec etc. Hope you and the Texas lads are doing well dude! Say hi to everyone for me ;)

[@elijahramos3898]

@@RidgeHannawassup my man! 100% round 3 would have been spicier had Jordan won. Seraphon plays a tempo game I've found, sometimes one double turn to disrupt the tempo can be quite the game changer. You're totally right about some armies just not having an answer. Ohhhh man you'll have to let me know what you think about the spawn when you use it. I'm curious but cant seem to fit him in lists. And hell yea on the aggradons! I love em and need to build mine to try them in coalsced. Gorgeous models! Doing as best we can in the heat, hope things are good up there and hope to see you sooner rather than later my friend.

[@raigomander2817]

Seraphon are back to being the big bad. Hopefuly this time it won't last so much as with the previous book xD

[@LeeLolth]

I don't know if they're changed unit coherency or not; but I'm pretty sure 15 skinks should have died turn one due to it XD

[@SeasonofWar]

Their bases are less than an inch, so they're in coherency in a line if they're base to base!

[@LeeLolth]

Because they're on 25mm bases! This is the moment I realise, that I don't have a single unit/model on a 25mm base in any of the 4 armies I play.

[@ItsXodious]

the devastating output of mortal wounds is pretty much why im playing coalesced in seraphon. At best, starborne is just a one-note army in a book that is all about versatility and plays as a gatekeeper in competitive scenes. at worse, its outright oppressive and unfun to play against. Just hoping the points changes to lizards doesnt hurt my lists, but ive ran a slaan in them all and even looked at kroak in coal, so pretty unlikely.

[@jesusgarza2208]

In the very least I hope a points update alleviates the pressure this kind of Seraphon list brings. I think it's pretty poor design to be able to do something to your opponent that they virtually can't counter. You could argue you're sacrificing a dino, but it's obviously a worthy trade when you can do that kind of damage in one go. 30 wounds is like a 1\4 or even a 1/3 of a list. This is just my personal thoughts on the army and not anyone here on the channel, as always I enjoyed the content. Thank you so much!

[@olafolafsson2755]

30 mortals?! I think Gotrek needs a return and show these cloth wearing bookreading wizards how it’s done

[@vinoshbagabathesewaran5147]

Gotrek doesn’t work into starborn seraphon. The starseer shuts down his ward and then 8 mortals is very easy for starborn to do individually. Even if they somehow can’t then they can summon raptadons and charge him finishing him off.

[@olafolafsson2755]

Back in the day the Longstrikes would have shot these Starseer dudes while Gotrek keeps his ward save.

[@vinoshbagabathesewaran5147]

@@olafolafsson2755 nah. U just keep the starseer next to the guard so he passes the wounds off onto them and then next turn kroak would take em off the board.

[@olafolafsson2755]

@@vinoshbagabathesewaran5147 it doesnt look bright against these lizard flolk, man!

[@vinoshbagabathesewaran5147]

@@olafolafsson2755 harsh reality is it isn’t great against them. Only thing keeping them in check is the fact that they autolose to teclis and null myriad ossiarch and struggle into tzeentch and khorne and beasts. Anything else they wipe the floor with.

[@CelebrintaR]

Why skink starpriest casting 2 spells?

[@SeasonofWar]

His Serpent Staff is an ability, not a spell

[@CelebrintaR]

@@SeasonofWar Thanks!

[@daytonobre5774]

skellies round 3 should have had units return at start of combat phase.

[@SeasonofWar]

Only summonable units can be returned, so the Skeletons & Graveguard - both of which were still alive!

[@daytonobre5774]

@SeasonofWar ya but skellies ability is start of combat phase they roll dice to come back no?

[@daytonobre5774]

@@SeasonofWar at the start of the combat phase, roll a dice for each slain model in the unit. on a 4+ you can return 1 slain model to the unit. listen it wouldnt have done much in this match, just pointing out a missed rule. had i believe 3 left in the unit in the combat phase before the basty took them out. stop letting Ridge win Priority rolls too

[@SeasonofWar]

@@daytonobre5774 ah yes, forgot to do it that turn, but we'd basically called it at that point 😅 dang lizards

[@daytonobre5774]

@@SeasonofWar you can just say Dang Ridge at this point..

[@Compo12344321]

Is the "Magical Dominance" Tactic one from the new GHB? Looks like free points for doing nothing...

[@mitchellverstraate5756]

Yeah it's a new tactic turn 1 it's free if you are out of unbound range. However if your opponent unbounds a single spell or more you already fail the battle tactic. So it's pretty dangerous one if you are in unbound range.

[@Compo12344321]

@@mitchellverstraate5756 Teclis autospell goes brrrrr 🤣

[@mitchellverstraate5756]

Just for clarification if you auto cast with teclis you still don't complete the battle tactic if any of your other spells (for example from another lumineth wizard) got unbind that turn.

[@Compo12344321]

@@mitchellverstraate5756 Understood. But no one forces you to cast every spell availible.

[@JackCawood]

Kroak at 395 is ridiculous, he has no business being that cheap. God models should come with a high price point 600+.

[@daytonobre5774]

hahah Ridges face going into turn 2

[@poxous3854]

That did not look fun at all. Wow... gonna be a long year.

[@AudamGaming]

Starborne has to be redesigned or banned from events, period. 30:24 Jordan I love your optimism but there's nothing to be done against this seraphon build, it needs addressing asap.

[@MichaelRivera-le3ye]

But Hedonites shooting, and cheap Soulblight shouldn't?

[@mitchellverstraate5756]

Nothing? Null myriad can give ridge 5 turns in a row and seraphon will still lose.

[@zelse07]

This Seraphon list seems like the most unfun thing in the game.

[@WarpstoneSpeedSnorter]

Makes no sense that spells from Kroak and the Slann can be cast through an Oracle/Skink instead of one spell max per turn like every other faction and Spellportal. Other factions have to either spend points or opt for artifacts/command traits to get this effect once per turn. Each Oracle/Skink should be limited to one spell cast through them from any wizard. Also ridiculous that Kroak was granted the ability spam Celestial Deliverance on top of vomiting out a Comet's Call with the rules mentioned above. Nagash and Arkhan were nerfed hard with not being able to spam Arcane Bolts or Mystic Shields anymore for a reason. Feels like intentionally poor design creating cheaper costed "God models" like Kroak and Teclis that are incredibly streamlined, flexible, and efficient. Most strong unique models have some kind of mechanical struggle to fully realize all their tools perpetually. Katakros has arguably his best buff disabled for activation when he's used in combat for example. Nagash oftentimes has literally nothing else to cast to justify his points, or requires access to easily disposable units worth resurrecting. When the rules of units like Kroak and Teclis make every other faction's posterboy look like Alarielle during AoS 2.0, there's clearly a problem.

[@thedoubleop]

Lord Kroak should be a 400 pt model

[@NexUtInfinitus]

He’s 395, typo in the list

[@thedoubleop]

@@NexUtInfinitus then he should be a 450pt model lol

[@MKDietz]

Great production, but yikes it just doesn't seem fun to play against Seraphon and it isn't even fun to watch (nothing to do with Jordan or Ridge, love you guys

[@shanegoldner6855]

Seraphon are busted AF.

[@cmdrthejockinaboxxboxone5835]

The starbourne seraphon takes absolutely no skill to play. It's literally stand in a corner, teleport a celestial node, and blitz you with mortal wounds. Absolutely horrible to play against unless your OBR Null myriad. Worst army created and hope they get a huge hike in pts that makes them ny on impossible to field correctly. I have been on the receiving end of this list and losing 1600pts worth of army in turn 2 makes for absolutely no fun.

[@jonfitz7952]

Wow seraphon are beardy what a one sided spam fest jeez

[@ssnakeshitful]

Good god Seraphon Starborne are so ridiculous. This was such a painful and unfun game to watch.

[@jakea3950]

Magic is overpowered. Gw showing how useless they are with balance.

[@davidwasilewski]

What an unsatisfying, one sided game!

[@neil9525]

If Jordan had a won priority in turn 2 it would almost certainly be very different and possibly even turn 3. Important to see lows as well as highs, not even considering the time the guys spend recording the game.

[@assift1246]

Nice game, Seraphons are way too OP. SbG as well, but not in Kalestai.

[@sururu6]

seraphon played the only good list while vampire played maybe worst possible list,no neferata, dragons,zombyes etc seraphons arent oo in any way lol. kroak list is really strong but a tier lower than vampire,ko,khorne,bonerippers and skanesh. and the problem is everything besides that kroak list is really bad and absurded overcosted. gladly would change an increase of points in every unit in this list for a massive decrease in every other unit in book.

[@assift1246]

@@sururu6 allow me to correct myself then : this Seraphons list is way too OP. And yes, all those armies you listed are in the same spot right now, dominating the meta but with a winrate that is way too high.

[@splaartflunterklufn9797]

@@assift1246in a game like this it might seem like this list is overpowered but it’s really not that bad, in terms of power. The potential damage is huge but there is no table presence and board control can be very difficult too. If any of the priority rolls had gone different this could have been a very different game. What you saw today n this video was basically the worst case scenario for SBG, as far as I’ve seen.

[@assift1246]

@@splaartflunterklufn9797 The potential damage with all those MWs is exactly the problem, are you supposed to simply hope your opponent rolls poorly ? How is that strategy ? You're saying you have no board control ? I just saw things teleporting and some invocations. You should put things in perspective with 'older' BT, the lethality of those newly released army (after Gitz) is just way too high and it shows on meta stats.

[@lestrike2707]

I am not a fan of the direction of this GHB.