Gibson Lawsuit - PAF Pickups & DiMarzio’s Trademark - BUT WHY?!

[@TomButwin]

Shop Gibson at Sweetwater: sweetwater.sjv.io/4PngK3 Shop DiMarzio at Sweetwater: sweetwater.sjv.io/y264LG Shop Gibson HERE: www.zzounds.com/a--3980673/cat--Gibson--3549 Shop DiMarzio HERE: www.zzounds.com/a--3980673/cat--DiMarzio--3536

[@viperBSG]

Gibson’s cancellation case claims that both the PAF and Double Cream marks owned by DiMarzio no longer apply. It makes the following main arguments: Gibson takes priority over DiMarzio for both marks, because it was selling guitars with double-cream humbuckers and using “patent applied for”/PAF before DiMarzio was even founded.

[@vorpalblades]

They didn't apply for the color, only the construction. Why is that hard to understand?

[@sgt.grinch3299]

I’m all for this. Open the floodgates for colors. I would think the Gibson patent would take priority.

[@zakkwyldesliver]

Gibson-“We don’t innovate, we litigate”

[@flamedmahoganytable9749]

Thats needs to go on a shirt ASAP

[@kelleywhite5761]

But it’s Gibsons innovations that Dimarzio has trademarked

[@BlockDefender]

Of all the cases this is the worst possible one to use that on

[@shawnglass108]

Except that Gibson actually did innovate almost every single thing they’re suing over. They may have not done what they should’ve to receive or maintain the trademarks but they were the innovators.

[@Luckyrider1958]

@@kelleywhite5761 so.. NO ONE but Gibson can make Humbuckers?? REALLY???

[@Darth.Shredder]

I'm no Gibson fanboy and have used DiMarzio pickups since the 80's but I always thought it was ridiculous for anyone to be able to trademark a color. It's like saying, you can't make a strat copy in black because Fender did it. If the double cream bobbins were a company's exclusive identity... for instance, if every DiMarzio pickup was double cream then I guess there could be some argument but DiMarzio makes covered, zebra and double black as well. It's nuts to think the color of a pickup can only belong to one company and I'm surprised the got away with it for so long.

[@IndyRockStar]

Trademarking a color isn't new. I dare you to try to make and sell anything in Tiffany Blue. It will be the end of your financial existence.

[@Darth.Shredder]

@@IndyRockStar Wow, you dare me? LOL "Tiffany blue" is a name like "Daphne blue". It's a unique color and name. "Cream" is not a unique name or color. See the difference? I dare you to not see it. LOL

[@Darth.Shredder]

@user-ri3gh6yb5k Yes! Good point.

[@Davejkn]

I expected this kind of thing would happen after they had a go at Dean and Heritage. It'll be makers of aftermarket hardware next - gibson style bridges, tailpieces and knobs etc. The only people who benefit are the lawyers, everyone else loses out. Apparently pissing people off is more important than making decent guitars

[@ravencrestmedia]

Funny how Gibson loves to sue. Les Paul stole the idea on the PAF humbucker from Leo Fender. Remember, Leo was the electrician/inventor. Les Paul was a player. They knew each other and according to those who knew them both, they used to be friends. That is until the PAF humbucker patent was filed. Leo was talking to Les about how to remove the hum and the concept of putting the two pickups side by side with IIRC reverse winding on one of the two pickups. It is alleged by people I interviewed in the 90's that upon hearing of the concept and drawings, Les Paul immediately went to Seth Lover with the concept, a design was drawn up and Les rushed Seth to file for the design. When Leo found out about this, he was very upset, mostly at himself so he went about and proceeded with his other hum canceling designs. Leo had been working on a split 2/2 design that appeared on the Fender Precision bass in 1958, but I recall that the split design was in testing as early as 1955/56. Granted, this was told to me by someone long in the California guitar mfg business over a phone interview I did in 1996/7. It's common knowledge that Leo and Les collaborated plenty of times. In fact, it was Gibson that turned down his idea of the log guitar and when Leo released the telecaster, Gibson effectively threw themselves at Les Paul to make a competing solid body design. Granted this doesn't put Les into a favorable light, and what I heard was something that amounts to rumors, but it did make for an interesting story as to how Gibson tried to get back at Fender for getting the jump on solid body guitars and Les at best was inadvertently a middle man, and at worst, the fella that decided to get something to market first. I honestly can't say for certain one way or the other.

[@23skidoo46]

it's silly. Larry outsmarted and scooped them early on. smart move by him. They're ways around the "double cream" bs. Call it double bone as some companies have done. double off white. or whatever. they're all double cream colored. lol

[@Psuperbrain1]

This is interesting. I have a massive guitar collection. I own a crazy amount of Gibson guitars as well as Fender and PRS. I can honestly say I may have a totally different take on Gibson lawsuits. I believe that this lawsuit stems, as well as all other prior lawsuits, have developed for no other reason than Gibson having a quality control issue and they are getting their as handed to them. When Gibson isn’t doing well, they tend to throw tantrums. Every guitar company has good and bad years. They are a company with a product, same with Larry. Gibson is trying to assert the company. Instead of wasting money on lawsuits they should concentrate on quality control. Maybe spend some time making sure the transition between the neck and fretboard are smooth, without a lip. How about scraping every inch of the binding 100% clean before shooting the clear coat. Just a thought.

[@bradleyblauvelt1572]

When was the quality issue?

[@Jeffy2n]

Gibson has recently entered the aftermarket pick-up market. Gibson got a Cease and Desist from Dimarzio when they released a vintage les paul with the double cream. So I think it is more they want to be able to do the double cream and PAF without running into legal issues. For the record, I am with Gibson on this one.

[@kelleywhite5761]

Me too, considering it was Gibsons intellectual property even before DiMarzio was a company

[@BlueberryStinkFinger62]

The Log was constructed by Paul after-hours in the New York City Epiphone guitar factory, and is one of the first solid-body electric guitars.[31][32] For the sake of appearance, he attached the body of an Epiphone hollow-body guitar sawn lengthwise with The Log in the middle. This solved his two main problems: feedback, as the acoustic body no longer resonated

[@tedgay8427]

I have a 1960 Gretsch with Patent Applied For on the Filtertrons. It was a common marking on many products in the middle of the 20th century when items were coming to market quickly.

[@danielplantus71]

I’m definitely on team DiMarzio on this. Gibson is undeniably legend but this is ludicrous. DiMarzio is also legend and even more, a few months ago I called them for a consult on pickups and they actually picked up the phone and advised me on what they think would be best without a runaround of phone trees like I got when I called Gibson. What’s next? Fender suing Seymour Duncan for making silver Tele pickups? If Gibson wins it opens a dangerous precedent.

[@greendayray]

I love Di’Marzio pickups but it is pretty stupid that they trademarked the “double cream” and paf when they didn’t even come up with it

[@greendayray]

@user-ri3gh6yb5k that’s what Ronnie James Dio said lol

[@brentstewart59]

If ya can't beat em Sue them

[@LysanderLH]

So Agnesi found another pointless thing to do. Really reminds me to never buy a Gibson.

[@Stevie.C]

How can you own a color? I’d love to see other companies make a double cream pickup. I prefer Seymour Duncan.

[@TomButwin]

Could be! Great call on the 57 Classic HB

[@vorpalblades]

John Deere, Pepsi, Target, UPS and many others have trademark colors. It's not uncommon.

[@mikeshaw4951]

How much detail must you provide on the patent? For instance, assuming a pickup would you need to specify the bobbin color(s), gauge of wire used to wind bobbin,, color of wire etc.? Now we know that Gibson changed the bobbin color from black to cream due to the black pigment shortage due to the war and figured n0obody would know since the difference since it was covered by the cover. BUT...If all of the details listed above were required wouldn't Gibson have violated it's own patent by changing bobbin color, wire gauge, gauss, magnet types, etc. would require new patents indicating all changes to be enforcable?

[@WolfetonePickups]

If you want to know MUCH more about why Gibson is doing this, read up of "Aesthetic functionality doctrine" as it pertains to trademark law. Yes, colors can be trademarked - IN SOME CASES. But where the color has a functional aspect in any manner, or affects the cost or ease of manufacture, or puts a competitor as a "significant non-repuation based disadvantage" then the color is functional.

[@rangle187]

In this case, dimarzio deserves to be sued. They have been suing smaller pickup manufacturers for using double cream.

[@rangle187]

same@user-ri3gh6yb5k

[@AuntAlnico4]

So you agree that Gibson should never have sued Dean ? I can't believe that a judge even heard that case.

[@vorpalblades]

Because they are enforcing their trademark.

[@BillyTheKidsGhost]

Gibson thinks they invented the guitar...

[@IndyRockStar]

Gibson didn't invent the guitar.... Gibson and Fender perfected it. Gibson and Fender are the entire reason for the existence of every other American guitar company today.

[@nkmcfrln]

@@IndyRockStarLike Martin or Rickenbacker?

[@keith.loves.lasagna]

Gibson didn't invent the guitar but the invented the PAF... And had double cream humbuckers before DiMarzio. The fact Dimarzio has both those things trademarked has always been beyond me

[@maplechill75]

It is for their own benefit. “Double cream” is an effective marketing term when selling pickups. The fact that is also benefits others to eliminate DiMarzio’s claim is just a necessary evil to them as it’s the only way they get to use the term.

[@Gordanovich02]

The DiMarzio Double Cream trademark is predicated on the notion that since all the original Super Distortions were double cream, it was a distinguishing feature i.e. even at a distance people could clearly see the pickup colour, and would know it was a DiMarzio Super Distortion. Of course this ignores the fact that, as Gibson rightly point out, some pickups would have came from the factory with double cream bobbins. I _think_ the reason DiMarzio got away with it is they were arguing about _replacement_ pickups. But even then, how does one distinguish between _replacement_ and _uncovered original equipment_ pickups? A few months ago Gibson added a double cream version of its 57 Classic humbucker to the website, although they call it Double Classic White. One must assume this lawsuit is to pre-empt any legal action from DiMarzio.

[@jamesbossingham9694]

Gibson is trying to monopolies the guitar industry

[@adamjones3299]

Gibson is pulling this shit so they don’t have to pay dimarzio for pickups anymore

[@bongnp]

Larry DiMarzio is of the Gene Simmons KISS mind, where you just try to trademark everything. lol Gibson deserves to win this. DiMarzio shouldn't get to own double-cream-colored pickups. It's like having a tire company trying to own the rights to all-black tires. I know large groups of pickup winders getting cease and desist notices from DiMarzio, it was almost like a right of passage when pickup winders start getting popular. To compensate for this, winders would sell covered pickups without the nickel or chrome cover soldered on, so you could remove it easily - so sellers could avoid getting sued for selling double cream pickups. Almost a throwback to the original discovery but buyers know there's double cream underneath. Lots of small companies tried getting together to try a class action lawsuit against DiMarzio to get rid of this silly trademark. Especially since there's also no "exact" cream color. So to say cream is already way too general. I've seen two creams from different bobbin batches that don't even match. It would be more valid if DiMarzio developed their own Pantone color for their DiMarzio bobbins, an exact color nobody could copy. DiMarzio should not be able to broadly say 'all varieties of cream.' I know some people who work at Gibson, and I'm confident that they are aware of this problem. So I'm very happy glad Gibson decided to take this on.

[@rosslunato8111]

Love it. I am surprised in the 70’s nothing was brought up by Gibson then. I hope Gibson kicks Dimarzios ass up and down the courthouse.

[@MarkTurner-vs7uc]

I hate gibson. I love DiMarzio. I have DìMarzios in my gibsons.

[@george.kollaros]

Dimarzio owns PAF name, not P.A.F., like Seymour Duncan have the '59 and they have trademarked a number? And trademarking a color to identify your brand is everywhere in the industry: Fender has Seafoam Green (among others), Yamaha monitors have the white woofer cones, KRK monitors have the orange cones, Ferrari has a certain red color called "Ferrari Red" etc.

[@george.kollaros]

@user-ri3gh6yb5k First of all, the one who has the trademark or the patent can sue someone for copying, it doesn't matter who did it first. You can argue in the trademark agency at the start, not after 50 years. Then, when Gibson made double cream pickups they were selling them covered, not as a color choice. Under the cover was whatever was at hand the moment the employee made the pickup, be it double cream, cream+black (zebra) or double black.

[@nkmcfrln]

Ferrari does not have a certain colour called, “Ferrari Red.”

[@george.kollaros]

@@nkmcfrln For Ferrari is just red. But if you copy the exact red tone to a car you'll get sued (many years ago that happened and I found out this). It's just like Fiesta Red that Fender uses. For Ford Fiesta is just red.

[@t3hgir]

@@nkmcfrln tell me, why can you order a Ferrari in Rosso Corsa but not a Ford in ROSSO CORSA.

[@nkmcfrln]

@@t3hgir I said there’s no, “Ferrari Red.” There’s Rossa Corsa but not only Rossa Corsa.

[@homegrownson]

Gibson who wants Total Trademark Protection insisting on Not such Right for DiMarzio

[@RandyFricke]

It's time to boycott Gibson. They are just getting greedy at this point.

[@bdwitt66]

Love it!! These have been the stupidest claims trademarks (i.e. original ideas) since the 70s.

[@therightisright8276]

Gibson cant sell overpriced, mediocre guitars while everyone else is selling affordable, quality guitars and parts, so theyre trying to sue them to monopolize the industry.

[@bradleyblauvelt1572]

Really are you serious?

[@filippocalderoni]

Hey Tom, another informative cool video! Can I ask you what studio desk are you using? It looks so nice!

[@TomButwin]

Appreciate it! It's made by a company called Output! By far the best desk I've found. They generally make software instruments and plug-ins, but kind of randomly also make some of the best studio furniture in the game. Go figure.

[@bryantherocker]

F dimarzio for Color Trademark, Way the go Gibson

[@murrayguitarpickups9545]

As a pickup maker I cant sell you a double cream humbucker and call it a PAF so for years we've been calling them PAF replicas and when a customer asks for double cream I have to explain the trademark and ask them not to use my name in any social media posts because I can be sued by Larry Dimarzio. When I make double cream PAFs I write "up yours Larry" under the covers as a surprise for the customer. Its nonsense, how can he trademark a colour?

[@vorpalblades]

John Deere did it , Pepsi. UPS, etc.

[@WolfetonePickups]

@@vorpalblades John Deere does NOT own a trademark on the color green. I invite you to read John Deere v. Farmhand. In this the color green was found to be functional because farmers wanted to color-coordinate their farm equipment. UPS's brown color serves no function. Blue on ice-cream packaging has a psychological function suggesting the contents are colder. Yes, there's a case about it. If you believe that color cannot serve a function, then tell us.... why are traffic cones brightly colored orange?

[@WolfetonePickups]

@user-ri3gh6yb5k Deere does not own a trademark on the color green. People may think that, but it's not the case.

[@vorpalblades]

@@WolfetonePickups you were saying what? January 15, 2018 John Deere Wins Trademark Case Regarding its Green and Yellow Colors Peter S. Lubin and Patrick Austermuehle  "Some companies’ products have become so associated with a particular symbol or color in the public mind that it is effectively impossible to separate them. Think of McDonald’s “golden arches” or the Apple logo. Almost everyone is familiar with the green-and-yellow logo with the leaping deer found on John Deere tractors, lawnmowers, and caps. Deere & Co. wants to make sure that those colors remain associated with Deere products and only Deere products, and it is celebrating a recent trademark victory in a Kentucky federal court. The Illinois-based farm equipment giant brought a trademark infringement suit against FIMCO, Inc., a South Dakota-based maker of pesticide sprayers, for its use of green and yellow on its equipment. The complaint alleged federal trademark infringement, unfair competition, and trademark dilution, as well as trademark infringement under Kentucky state law. Deere’s iconic color scheme was registered as a trademark in 1988, and the company has been aggressive about enforcing it in court. Deere claimed that by using the recognizable color combination, FIMCO knowingly attempted to associate its products with the Deere brand in the public mind, with the effect of diluting the value of the trademark. District Court Judge Thomas B. Russell of the Western District of Kentucky found in favor of Deere on all claims after a week-long bench trial, permanently enjoining FIMCO’s use of the color scheme on its equipment. The court found that John Deere’s green and yellow color combination has qualified as a “famous” trademark since the late 1960s and that FIMCO intentionally chose the colors to create an association with the John Deere brand. The court also found that FIMCO’s use of the colors on its machinery was likely to cause confusion among consumers as to whether its agricultural equipment was made by or endorsed by John Deere. Russell rejected FIMCO’s argument that green and yellow are colors generally associated with agriculture, and ruled that FIMCO could use either green or yellow on its products but not the two colors together."

[@vorpalblades]

@@WolfetonePickups Eight decades later, in 1998, ‘UPS Brown’ became a trademarked color. UPS became the third company to have a color trademarked in the U.S. (Owens Corning was first, registering pink, followed by Qualitex, which registered a green-blue). Other companies like Tiffany and T-Mobile have since trademarked their colors.

[@damham5689]

Because Gibson has nothing new and people just arent wanting to pay $3k for a $600 guitar anymore. Even with a rubber stamp guitar god signature on it. So they are resorting to suing anyone over anything.

[@MoeVanprick]

Very well put and we're exposed for being pathological liars the first miserable failed lawsuits..

[@Earthshaker1965]

I bought a Les Paul Traditional for my grandson.... He has Les Paul's 100th birthday, June.9th. 2015. It's an investment, Gibson is just full of shit now. They are constantly suing everybody and shooting themselves in the foot. A boardroom of greedy investors who don't care about anything but their bottom line. I could care less now if they go belly up.... They damn well deserve it.

[@davidpaul6656]

From what I understand, Di'marzio has had the double cream trademark for years

[@vorpalblades]

For decades.

[@t3hgir]

@@vorpalblades smart move by Larry

[@frankglad2989]

From watching Phil Knights channel, he said that Dimarzio maybe started this by sending Gibson a " cease and desist" letter about making and selling double cream bobbin pickups.

[@jonathananthony1901]

Team DiMarzio!

[@TheGadgettracker]

Team DiMarzio! Gibson has lost my business and they are in my home state. They are acting like a bunch of whiney losers on a school ball field wanting to take their ball home. If they were smart about it, they would turn it around with a marketing plan touting that they were the first and everyone else is just trying to copy "their sound." Instead, all they are doing is adding to the consumer's cost to pay lawyer fees. My guess is that a Les Paul could sell for $1,500 less if they stayed out of the court rooms and concentrated more on building a quality brand.

[@smokepeddler]

Gibson should concentrate on building guitars.

[@cheffy101]

Imagine if Gibson spent all this legal money on QC in the factories… 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@RobertWGreaves]

Gibson will prevail. Motive or other questions are irrelevant. It is purely a question of patent law. Patents are reserved for a unique approach. There is nothing unique to this DiMarzio design. It simply does not meet the qualifications. However, it seems to me that Gibson’s complaint is primarily against the patent office. DiMarzio has the right to file for a patent. It is the Patent office that is required to follow patent law when granting patents.

[@barryengle12666]

Even though I've played a Gibson Les Paul for 40 years at this point, and love my Gibsons, Idon't understand, nor do I support everything the company does. This in particular is quite confusing and really, who cares?? Why are they even bothering? Seriously, if they spent as much time focused on quality control and just basic paying attention to detail at the factory as they do putting together these legal battles they'd been top of the world again without any doubts

[@ElectricCardinal]

Was Gibson being hit up for licensing money to market their products with the PAF and “Double Cream” logo?

[@timesurfingalien]

Gibson is losing market share to the cheap Chinese CNC guitars. This is the death throws of a giant

[@loudguitar]

45 years later? Please, Gibson. They will have no better luck than they did suing PRS.

[@dananthony6258]

I love Gibson. I don’t care what they do as long as they still make the ultimate guitars on the planet.

[@8ball_wil]

😂

[@kennygardner5041]

Gibson is run by too many corporate types. They will LOSE this suit. We have almost FIFTY years of History where DiMarzio has been known for recreating pickups that Gibson was NOT and FREE MARKET put DiMarzio on the map.

[@WolfetonePickups]

Might want to research "aesthetic functionality doctrine" and reach a bunch of material about color trademarks.

[@kennygardner5041]

@@WolfetonePickups I know about the color issue. The thing is Gibson messed up in the past, as did Fender by not trade marking body shapes of guitars etc when they could have. Industry was small and their mindset was mutual respect and not lagalities. One was the case of Fender using the name Broadcaster and Gretsch sending them a notice. So fifty plus years late for Gibson pulling these issues is absurd. The market filled a void Gibson and Fender were not filling. Dean, Hamer even B.C Rich took over because of a lack of quality from Gibson, Fender etc. Also Charvel/Jackson etc. I had great ‘70’s Gibsons and Fenders but those were often the exception. Gibson seemingly wants to eliminate competion by legal means and not quality improvement creating more robust competition.

[@WolfetonePickups]

@@kennygardner5041 I hope you understand that Gibson effort here is to put these back into the public domain for use by all builders. Gibson is not claiming sole rights to either the PAF nickname or the color. If they win, Gibson will not turn around and seize them.

[@kennygardner5041]

@@WolfetonePickups I understand that part. The concern around those by me is Gibson has been a suing spree. The double open coil look started with those in the ‘60’s who took their covers off their humbuckings. Will all open coils be next? Sounds crazy but Gibson sued Dean over shapes they failed to register for patents after Dean had been making guitars with those shapes since 1977. Hamer had since 1974. Look I love Gibsons and just bought a new Les Paul Sunburst. Love it! The issue is they cater to those with money and not the player. Been the way since Henry J. I get their current take on the coil color issue. I did not agree with DiMarzio, do like their pickups, when they filed exclusivity on the double creme coil look. At the time if you had them most would ask “ are those DiMarzio’s? Yes Gibson created them but never exploited the look, never intended covers to be removed. They, Gibson, only utilized the open coil look in and around 1978-‘79 with the Explorer II or Les Paul KM. If this is ALL Gibson is trying to do then fine. Considering they have been doing this since the PRS case I doubt it. We shall see! Nice conversation by the way! Really! Enjoyed it!😊😊😊

[@Luckyrider1958]

if Gibson put as much effort into making their guitars PERFECT like they used to be, as they do into SUING everyone out there NOW .. I'd respect em. They have become one messed up Business now. OVERPRICED Guitars.... less sales.. so SUE SUE SUE to try to recoup money.. pathetic.

[@younkinjames8571]

Ill be happy never owning another gibson anything. The are just such big babies. Im going to stock up on some dimarzios...cream...

[@uno1industries]

DiMarzio shouldn’t be able to trademark a color lmao. While I agree Gibson pursues frivolous lawsuits, DiMarzio is just as petty in this case.

[@zakkwyldefan79]

They are not trying to stop DiMarzio from using the term PAF or stop them from making double cream pickups. They just want the patent office to end the patent so Gibson, and other companies, can make them too.

[@ronsheehan]

Since Gibson is now selling their pickups, it makes sense that they would want to sell their most vintage designed humbucker as a PAF and offer them uncovered with two cream bobbins as double cream

[@autodidacticprofessor869]

DiMarzio has aggressively gone after small winders for a long time who offer ANY kind of "off-white", "bone", "parchment" or whatever variation on a not "pure" white double-bobbin. It didn't even have to be "creme" or even called that. It would seem to Gibson really wants to release their own versions of and have been for some time without legal issues. What's funny about this is that ACTUAL vintage double-whites from the late 59/early 60 period of PAF production, as well as the white bobbin on "zebra" pickups were not THAT cream color. Most of them, unless they lived in a smokey bar for 60 years, are much closer to plain white. Even the one you showed in the video isn't "cream" colored at all. So now, DiMarzio offers a "relic white" which is not exactly the same color. I bought a PAF 59 neck pickup assuming it was renamed but it's definitely whiter in shade than the double cream Air Zone in the bridge. So I wonder if DiMarzio, in light of the lawsuit, is going to attempt to corner the double "relic white" market now?

[@aaronsmithey4044]

Team DiMarzio here. Gibson had a chance to block the Trademarks, they didn't. Gibson just wants to be able to bring what they consider their brand specific elements back into production, as always to boost sales and of course retain heritage. Too bad so sad DiMarzio sells PAF pickups, and when you see a double cream humbucker we instantly think DiMarzio. Shame on Gibson for wanting to diminish someone else's Brand. "but, but, we did it first." stop it, the person who filed wasn't even around when it all went down.

[@TomButwin]

I'm on neither team, but that's a great question.

[@DragDealer]

Gibson is ridiculous

[@damonkatos4271]

They should’ve sued 40 years ago.

[@arnolddealiii4259]

The benefits to Gibson is they can sell custom shop guitars without the term custom bucker in the name of the pickup. It’s all to sell more guitars, and pickups.

[@yoshim7991]

Probably the dumbest lawsuit ever.

[@jacobbockover1628]

Gibson wants to sell gibson PAFs as they are also selling pickups? I mean yeah but this sirta thing is all to common where some came up with it but someone else has the trademark

[@leogolive]

Gibson needs to be worried about quality control on their guitars. Otherwise the pickups don’t matter.

[@flyonwall360]

Is there anything Gibson won't sue for?

[@sgt.grinch3299]

Ignorance. I don’t think you cab sue for that despite it being the cause of most problems.

[@mikewhitfield2994]

Well, obviously they won't be suing anyone for outstanding quality control . . .

[@michaelkeudel8770]

Can we just stop patenting/trademarking stupid shit, it's a color for gods sake, no one should be able to own natural color combinations, just stupidly insane.

[@brian770]

it has been proven many times that if you dont defend ( litigate ) you lose...

[@michaelbarber590]

Gibson (like Fender) have become an absolute joke in the last few years, producing poorly made overpriced junk. Bad fretwork, poorly shaped and cut nuts, over dried wood and headstocks that love to snap right off.

[@guitarjero552]

I wonder how Dimarzio was able to patent it in the first place. Gibson is right about the fact that they started it. Also the term PAF is associated with an Gibson product that is way older than DiMarzio. Is the colour for pickups patented, or only the name? Otherwise you can make an PAF double cream, but call it different.

[@mikewhitfield2994]

I'm torn here. I stopped buying anything from the Gibson empire when they turned from making instruments to trademark trollery. I was hoping they were coming around under Caesar and considering picking up another SG, but now this. On the other hand, I don't think DiMarzio's double cream trademark should be viable, and I don't think anyone should own PAF - it literally stands for Patent Applied For, which should apply to any product for which a patent has been applied. Guess I'll just hang loose and see if Gibson continues its trademark trollery. My guess at this point is that Gibson's core business will remain trademark trollery, and I think their core demographics (i.e. lawyers and dentists) support them keeping Gibson products as exclusive as possible. I'm not selling my SG or my Epi Wildkat, but I can happily live without anything else from the Gibson empire.

[@williamdesmarais4931]

When is Gibson going to patent the removeable headstock?

[@TomButwin]

Ok, this is really funny. Lol

[@MarksmanGuitar]

Gibson recently changed the strategy when it comes to pickups sale , they are tying to compete with pickup makers , and for now they can't sell double cream pup , because of dimarzio...

[@TomButwin]

Makes sense!

[@larrysquires5321]

What 'Remedy' does Gibson seek in the back of the court filing? It's no secret, why.

[@redkurn]

oh gibson... statute of limitations, does it really matter if dimarzio makes one too?

[@carljohnson4691]

That’s not the issue. DiMarzio won’t let Gibson reproduce their own historical products.

[@captainflamson]

They don't care if DiMarzio makes it, the lawsuit is arguing that any pickup producer should be able to make "double creme" and "PAF" humbucking pickups, currently this is not the case as DiMarzio will sue any pickup maker (in the US) that makes or markets them. Seymour Duncan Custom Shop used to build double creme as a custom order but would have to install a nickel cover which you could later take off, however due to lawsuits they can nor will no longer do even that. I love DiMarzios but it's time for this to happen.

[@JimmyTorque]

I find it interesting that Gibson takes a shot a dean, followed by dimarzio. Considering the deep history the companies have together.

[@zitnbit]

I’ve never been a fan of gibson or humbucker. But in this case I support gibson. Think someone has the trademark for 3 tone sunburst or fiesta red. Then when fender tries to use these terms or colors, this someone can get paid or makes fender stop to use these colors. Nonsense. IMO, gibson should sue this case 40 yrs ago.

[@duanepetersonakaroadkill7161]

For DiMarzio to claim the phrase double cream or the word cream is way out of line. Going to far. Gibson ideas and designs have been being ripped off since the beginning. No this is justified. Gibson is right for doing this. I would too.

[@WolfetonePickups]

It's not the phrase "double cream" that Dimarzio claims. It's the actual color of the pickup. You could call a black humbucker "double cream" and Dimarzio could do nothing about it. But if even if you call a cream humbucker "double black", they they will send you a cease and desist. The words "double cream" have nothing at all to do with it.

[@williamdesmarais4931]

Gibson loves to wait 30 years plus before suing. That is why they lost their "opened book" headstock design lawsuit in Japan.

[@564df6g5h4d6f5g4h6d5]

Gibson got burned when Seymour Duncan trademarked the Zebra. Now they are going to crush all the clowns pulling BS moves.

[@OfficialDreamTheater]

Gibson is a shitty company. They don't care about their workers, they don't care about their quality, they don't innovate or do anything. Gibson spend more money and time on throwing out lawsuits at anyone, and if you can't realize how asinine and anti-consumer/anticompetitive they are, you just fuel the shitty "leadership" of Gibson.

[@WolfetonePickups]

Seymour never trademarked the Zebra humbucker.

[@brandonjackson5865]

They want to put double cream in Murphy labs and it be a 2000 dollar option, yeah PAF and cream bobbins are generic as a certain 70 year old guitar shape carved from mahogany with a maple cap . I’ve always hated that Dimarzio has the lock down on double cream humbuckers because old double cream JBs are like unicorn tears now, but I hate it that Gibson can pretty much spend money until they get a desirable outcome or the other company runs out of cash, I kinda think Gibson would be interested in buying a well known pickup manufacturer Dimarzio or Duncan they’re trying to get into the aftermarket pickup game more seriously now it seems perhaps the plan is to sue dimarzio into bankruptcy and buy it from liquidation?

[@sdkee]

The idea that PAF and double cream bobbins can either be trademarked just shows how our of control the lawyers have become. One is a term that comes from a government term of art and the other is patenting the most obvious colors to put of flatwork. I am tired of pretending like this kind of stupid lawyer games are ok.

[@theanotsband]

Gibson sucks. Maybe they should spend more time increasing their quality and coming up with something new vs the same old designs.

[@JamesDillard-gk2xb]

As a Gibson player and a DiMarzio endorsing artist... I've made money playing since I was 12 and I'm 55 now... lets be honest... Gibson has NEVER done ANYTHING for anyone's benefit BUT Gibson... Gibby fanboi's want everything the way it WAS because that's what their influences and heroes played... want proof... the Les Paul headstock angle... they KNOW its a shit design... they even fix that on some or most of the Epiphone models at one point... but that ain't how it was when (insert guitar hero name here) had back whenever... its just how it is... Gibson knows if they can't sell reissue guitars with period correct double cremes AND even market some kind of "throwback historically hysterically price" thingamabob... the hardcores will GLADLY fork out a premium for the bragging rights of posting pics and saying "lookie what I gots"... but Gibson also snoozed on this as a marketable detail same as when they had to go back TM and copyright the headstock designs when they went an issued cease letters and lawsuits to Ibanez and Fernandes and etc.. and etc... this is a company that has been so focused on their craft that during the Henry J days towards the end, there was more emphasis place on "Gibson" as a "lifestyle" same as Harley Davidson has been marketed to be... the guitars were going down in quality while they peddled golf balls and hats and polo shirts.

[@davidmarks5400]

How dare you call me out for gleefully shelling out thousands for my "Greeny-Moore" it's worth every penny and "Moore" LoL!

[@JamesDillard-gk2xb]

@@davidmarks5400 LOL... no harm or insult intended at you good sir... I promise lol... I am just as guilty of having my own fandoi-ism I am sure!

[@davidmarks5400]

None taken. I was just trolling on the Gibson fan-boy bandwagon. I don't own a Greeny-Moore- just saturated from hearing about it everywhere I turn and the ridiculous prices people will gladly pay. @@JamesDillard-gk2xb

[@1980JPA]

I hate that everything revered or nostalgic about Gibson actually stems from bad quality control throughout the years. Also "patent applied for" has been stamped on all kinds of random objects throughout the years and shouldn't be patentable by any company.

[@shawnglass108]

I understand being able to trademark a color shade for a particular product but trademarking the entire spectrum of a color? That’s insane! You can’t make double cream pickups because a brand trademarked double cream? Every shade of cream? What is the reasoning behind this nonsense?

[@tbonesullivan]

Gibson is probably STILL salty that they couldn't release a Jimmy Page Number Two replica with the correct double cream bobbins due to Dimarzio's trademark. You know, the image that made an entire generation of fans and rockers want a Les Paul more than anything else. There is no more iconic image of a Les Paul guitar than Jimmy Page on Stage with His Number One or Number Two 1959 Les Paul Bursts. I believe that Jimmy Page acquired Number Two in 1973, and Dimarzio's original trademark application claims first use of double cream in 1974. Who wouldn't want a les Paul that looked like Jimmy's in the mid 1970s?

[@ahoneyman]

Dimarzio has been pretty free with their definition of "double cream" Dimarzio was delibrately vague with their color and imho, a bit fraudulent there. Go to a paint store. There are many many shades of white. Eggshell, antique white.... "Double Cream" should be a specific color. Taking the acronym P.A.F. and making it a trademarked word "PAF" is a bit of genius.

[@scottmoore1530]

now hold on. I got a 1997 Ace FRehely gibson custom with 3 factory Dimarzios installed? GUESS THEY DIDNTCARE BACK THEN BEFORE PEOPLE GOT GREEDY?

[@TheMetalVagabond]

Gibson only wants to take due credit, if they came up with the PAF and creme humbuckers, it's not right for Dimarzio to trademark and take credit for it if true, EVH trademarked drop tuning although he criticized Hendrix for playing out of tune, or drop tuning, this lawsuit would prevent the wrong people for getting credit.

[@damham5689]

After 40 years though ? If they filed it soon after I could see it. But 4 decades later ?

[@TomButwin]

Gibson is arguing that no one can trademark the double cream thing or PAF because it’s so “generic” (even Gibson themselves) so I’m left wondering why?

[@darkmamba7025]

PAF is a generic term. Patented colors are stupid. EVH patented the D-TUNA, not droptuning.

[@TheMetalVagabond]

And what is his device used for again? can't play EVH songs without drop tuning, unless you want them to have a bright sound @@darkmamba7025

[@kalkidasofficial]

In this case I support Gibson.

[@terrylittrell9596]

I have one Gibson Les Paul. Love it. Obviously made by a Luthier who cared... Just when I thought Gibsons management was coming around they do this... Goodnight Gibson. Sleep tight.

[@MrSteney]

Careful with the negative comments. Gibson might sue you, too. After all of this B.S.that has has gone on for years, I wonder if Les were still around, would he be playing a Tele now?

[@TomButwin]

Eh, I just read the facts/article. I happen to love many of their guitars and the company, but I don’t have to agree with their litigation practices 😂 not saying I *disagree* either. Right down the middle.

[@MisterTee]

This lawsuit is justified and unique for Gibson. In order to win the double cream bobbin look would become ‘untrademarkable’ and be public property. DiMarzio didn’t create double cream but has been threatening and or suing US makers for years over double cream. Gibson is putting an end to this.

[@TomButwin]

Interesting point and it makes sense to me…except for the timeline. Why now?

[@RussInCanada]

Someone needs to trademark 'guitar', then sue Gibson for using it.

[@kalamazoousa4412]

Gibson Fail.

[@tomflake1486]

Anyone owning the right to a color of pickups, to me is ignorant. It's like Gene Simmons trying to trademark the devil horn sign.

[@EveyoneCallsMeTheDude]

Gibson sole purpose now is to sue eveyone.. for using Gibson’s patent, for Gibson using other peoples patents etc etc. add nausea.. Oh and making $150 t shirts. Maybe one day gibson will get back to making quality fucking guitars.

[@Dang...]

Tom you ask "Why Gibson?" The more apt question is: Why did you make this video with such an accusatory tone? Is this a game of 'gotcha'?

[@TomButwin]

Well, I'm simply asking the question of "why?" but more specifically, "why now?" DiMarzio has owned the trademark for more than 40 years, rightfully or wrongfully. I love both companies and their products!

[@woodward_alan]

Like Micky Mouse after 100 years, don't these things expire where any Gibson before 1923 become public use?

[@TomButwin]

It's not an expiration, as far as I understand it. It's being argued that a trademark should have never been granted in the first place because these characteristics are so "generic" in nature.

[@kennyjohnson336]

When I look at what Gibson did with Slash pickups, as in stopping using Seymour Duncans. Its clear Gibson wants to make all their own pickups. Someday, we'll get another Ace Frehley model and Gibson will make their own copy of the Dimarzio Super Distortion like they did with Slash. That said the Dimarzio trademarks are laughable and never should have been granted.

[@ElmerSpuda]

PAF is legalese, going to be a short case.

[@damham5689]

Harley Davidson tried a similar lawauit over the name Hog associated with motorcycles . Harley lost. HARLEY DAVIDSON INC v. GROTTANELLI (1999)

[@TomButwin]

Going to look it up! I should have gone to law school...

[@damham5689]

@@TomButwin I never did. Lol. I read about back when it when it happened and everytime cases like this happen I remember it

[@damham5689]

Blues lawyer confessional youtube chanel might cover this.

[@gedsonmeira3112]

Will the descendents of the wheel inventor make a law suít against everyone?

[@TomButwin]

I sure hope not.

[@petesmith6434]

Perhaps Gibson should devote their resources to developing improved products and increasing quality and customer service instead of suing competitors that offer products that are of higher quality and lower prices. The only thing they should be doing to squash unfair competition is to pressure our government into putting in tariffs on products made in countries with slave labor…such as China.

[@emartinezr]

You obviously didn't even watch the video. Or you simply did not understand what the lawsuit is about.....

[@petesmith6434]

@@emartinezr I certainly did watch the video. In addition, I read the actual legal documents associated with these cases…which I am relatively sure you did not. To claim that “two-tone” pickup covers is sufficient reason to sue a competitor is petty and will look to most customers as an attempt to hurt small competitors who produce products that are of higher quality and lower cost. These lawsuits may backfire.