Oaths and Curses | Magic in Middle-earth

[@GirlNextGondor]

Reupload of a video published December 29, 2021 - edited for art compliance. One more down! 😄

[@SquirrelASMR]

Yay I miss those videos I'm glad their back

[@DavidRoberts]

How many to go, dare I ask?

[@GiordanoGaudio]

Nice to see it back up!

[@Enerdhil]

I never mind rewatching any of your videos. They are always thought-provoking. Today, for some reason, I thought about Celebrimbor. I'm pretty sure he never made a formal pledge of allegiance to his father, yet such a bond naturally exists between children and their parents. In fact, filial piety can be found in every culture in the world. Moreover, the necessity of honoring one's parents is one of the Ten Commandments. So when Celebrimbor repudiated his father's deeds and abandoned following him, did he actually break an oath that may have caused him to have the gruesome death he ended up experiencing?

[@istari0]

@@Enerdhil I hope not. Off the top of my head, the only ones who swore the original oath were Fëanor and his sons.

[@josuesolisgamboa3376]

Imagine if during the council of Elrond, some elven madlad had sworn an oath to destroy the ring all by himself, calling upon Eru and the Valar. Poor guy.

[@GirlNextGondor]

I think at that point Elrond just shoots the guy, honestly 🤣 the poor half-elf has been through enough oath-related trauma and he's OVER it.

[@JustFlemishMe]

@@GirlNextGondor Now I picture Elrond pulling out a gun 😀

[@urizen7613]

@@JustFlemishMe Shades of _Wizards_!

[@Archgeek0]

@@JustFlemishMe I imagine him just popping the poor sod in the throat with a hidden wrist-crossbow (he is Noldor, after all), declaring in piteous wrath "Do *NOT* do that to yourself, you fool!", then sending for healers to come remove the bolt and deal with the impromptu tracheotomy.

[@innovativeatavist159]

@@JustFlemishMe "And I believe THIS task is appointed to me." pulls out a piece and ends that tragedy before it starts.

[@samuelbattershell3413]

It's like a professor of language knew how the spoken word shapes the world

[@Amadeus8484]

He was a Cunning Linguist hehehe

[@scottleneau6221]

Kudos for tying oaths to subcreation. That's a concept absolutely everywhere in Tolkien's work, and, to me at least, endlessly fascinating.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you 😁 The more carefully I read, the more I've come to realize how foundational subcreation was for Tolkien - I knew it was one of his 'themes,' but I'm starting to see connections to it woven throughout almost everything he wrote.

[@that_vivian]

Absolutely! My favorite point of this brilliant video.

[@TJDious]

LIKE THE EXILED HEIR OF ISILDUR IT HAS RETURNED

[@GirlNextGondor]

A lot like that, yes, leaving a swath of pain and terror in its wake and driving at least one unquiet soul (mine) before it 🤣 But I'm very happy to get it back up, this was one of my faves!

[@sethrivers5303]

@@GirlNextGondor Happily, its return will also allow many unquiet souls (those of your viewers) to be soothed after a long (OK, it probably only *seemed* like centuries to me) period of deprivation. Glorious paradox!

[@Enerdhil]

I don't think it has been that long.

[@NerdoftheRings]

I really love this topic! Well done!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thanks Matt!! Vows and oaths are one of my favorite parts of Tolkien; they're dramatic and moving but at the same time they also lead to trouble more often than not 😆 I'm down to talk about curses and oaths, especially a certain Oath made by a certain Elf and his sons, any time.

[@MattbyNature]

I love the powerful conclusion of this video - oaths are the medium for Eru's children to participate in creation. Wow!

[@ItsRainingHippos]

Babe, wake up. GirlNextGondor dropped another video.

[@GirlNextGondor]

New favorite comment 😂

[@densandwitch1251]

Wow your analysis to LOTR is immaculate. I loved your commentary of Eowyn with her seeking death with her love for Aragorn.

[@carlcramer9269]

Resaw this because I just saw the the video on the two cursed son's of Feanors' final debate. I have two Tolkientubers i savishly follow, you and Rainbow Dave of Tolkien Untangled. You are the scholar, he is the mystic.

[@bennetthibner7551]

Return of the queen

[@HairTiesForGlorfindel]

Oh, yay! I hadn't gotten to this one before the purge. It reminded me of how the one about Music solved my eternal question about why Fingon had a harp on him when he went to rescue Maedhros.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Part of me thinks, yes, Fingon brought a harp because it was a pragmatic piece of equipment for an elf to have on a dangerous trip, just as much as a weapon or first aid supplies... but there's another part of me that thinks of Fingon as a chaotic-good overly-enthusiastic Golden Retriever of an Elf, who brought the harp, along with some playing cards and a pasta maker, because it happened to be within arm's reach when he was packing.

[@HairTiesForGlorfindel]

@@GirlNextGondor it wouldn't surprise me. It's so funny to me that in all the books I've read, I've never come across more Dramatique™ characters than in the Silm. It's as though they're all hearing their personal orchestral soundtrack in their heads.

[@sayagarapan1686]

Your mind is amazing and we wants one. All of it was buh-rilliant but the stand out explanation of Merry and Eowyn's courage and transgression, and the consequences, clarified for me what was until now has only been a dark spot of contradiction that my noodle couldn't untangle until you put it into intelligent words. I mean, I love the lore and I'm fascinated by its lore master, but this kind of subtlety and genius for illuminating his brilliance in detail is the icing that makes the cake complete for the otherly-abled, like me, and we thanks you indeed because video by video you are completing the tale and revealing its priceless qualities.

[@GirlNextGondor]

You're making me blush here 😅 I think there's a lot more to be said about Merry and Eowyn - as well as the general Rohirric approach to oaths, fealty, honor, etc. as opposed to the Gondorian position. That's what's so fun about these videos, and about getting deep into the Tolkien lore - no matter how much you know, there's always a new perspective or connection waiting to reveal itself as you dig into different topics or get other people's takes. I'm honored and delighted if my thoughts have given people fuel for their own moments of insight; that's always been my goal 💖

[@gabrielblanchard3921]

It never occurred to me till just now, but this might make the Glorfindel problem easier to solve! If Glorfindel were married, and his "widow" (if that is the right word) were still in Middle-earth, but he was re-embodied in Valimar, then the "reuniting of the sundered" could have been part of the motive for allowing him to return, even though such returns were highly irregular.

[@thebrotherskrynn]

Another fantastic video, could listen to you discuss oaths and curses for hours (I have hahaha), though it did make me ponder not only how oaths and curses work in Arda. But also Dragonlance's Krynn weirdly enough, so that I noticed a similar effect over there; oaths appear to twist the fates of certain characters and curse them when they break their word such as in the case of Soth, Kith-Kanan, and even Kitiara. That said it seems that few characters wish to swear oaths for fear of their after-effect so that strangely enough they have little power over their own lives because of it. Some of the characters who swear oaths willy-nilly like Kitiara bring down untold dooms unto herself, or in the case of Raistlin become nigh on as powerful as Sauron because of his abiding by each oath he swears to its fulfilment and still making a bunch of them. Though that said he scoffs when one priestess swears an oath to redeem him, which ends in him falling in love and giving up his life for her. His buddy Sturm swore to die trying to defend a tower if he has to, for which he does indeed that. That said, back to Arda, there's plenty of oaths sworn by the Hobbits yet what is interesting is how they manage to keep each of them. The only one that ends up broken is Frodo's to destroy the Ring for which the effects of the Morghul Blade begins to surge back upon him, his wounds grieving him worse than ever before. I wonder if the two are interlinked. What is also interesting is that Aragorn swore to protect his wee friends, and is heartbroken when he thinks he failed in this mission, yet technically it is only thanks to his actions that they and many others are saved. I don't know what you think of this reading of the text. As it appears that technically Aragorn did fulfil his oath. I wonder if promises in Tolkien's world though not sworn as oaths should count as oaths no matter what? As I have just suggested.

[@Disgruntled_Dave]

I've always been fascinated by the notion of oaths having power. An oath being "enforced" by whoever or whatever the oath was sworn on is also one of the few examples in the Legendarium of pride being seen as a positive trait -- and I do see it as a point of pride that Illúvatar won't allow anybody to lie in his name. It's also great to see the Magic in Middle-earth series getting re-uploaded! It was probably my favorite material on this channel.

[@acadiano10]

I remember laughing out loud when Beren basically says it's in my hand, but the hand is inside a werewolf... The Silmarilion is plentiful in dark humor and pretty grimdark by our standards.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Love all the connections drawn here, and I REALLY love the speculation about the Stone of Erech!

[@stevepilley]

thanks for this, very interesting and informative, may I suggest that Samwise Gamgee has a bigger place in this topic: after his comic song when the hobbits and Strider encounter the petrified trolls, Frodo jokingly predicts that Sam will end up becoming a wizard or a Warrior. Sam doesn't want to be either. but the language used to describe his attack on Shelob is very warrior like, and from Cirith Ungol through Cormalen, Sam frequently notices that all his wishes have come true; in Lorien he wants to see elf magic a wish which Glaladriel notes and immediately grants with her 'mirror', then when he notices his wishes being granted he recalls Galadriel:'if I could see the Lady I'd tell her!' Tolkien stops short of having Sam invoke her as an 'oath' like the English oath 'by our Lady' which would be an offense to his Roman Catholic faith

[@GirlNextGondor]

Glad you enjoyed it! I've been struck by how much potential foreshadowing there is in Fellowship that could easily go unnoticed unless you were hunting for it. By wielding the Phial and resisting the Ring Sam achieves 'magical' feats that even a Wizard would be impressed by, and he doesn't do too badly in fighting either. The Orcs deduce that whoever wounded Shelob must have been a big Elf-warrior, a claim Sam repeats as a grim joke before he goes to rescue Frodo - so technically, in a way no one expected or intended, even the joking prophecy did come true. Your mention of the possibility of 'by our Lady' invocations, both English and Elvish, reminded me of one I think I overlooked - not Sam, but Frodo, at the Ford of Bruinen, yelling at the Nazgul "By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" It is phrased as an oath, and it does come true, though what specifically Frodo might be swearing to *do* to achieve this end is unclear... or perhaps implicit. I'll have to re-consider that one!

[@waltonsmith7210]

Brilliant! I think Aragorn's destiny was sealed the moment Isildur cursed the Oathbreakers. After all, Eru couldnt just not give them an opportunity to redeem themselves. I think of Elendil and Isildur almost in the sense of Biblical patriarchs. Maybe that's the paradigm Tolkien was going for. I also really like your description of the Valar as NPCs. Theyre like living, conscious people that have chosen to become NPCs in the video game we incarnates have to play. Or maybe you could say, we're like the arcade players, and they're like the people who work at the arcade lol

[@squaeman_2644]

Also after the curses Feanor flew at the Valar, it makes sense why they wouldn't want to be totally hands on and controlling of the destiny of free people's. If Manwe had suddenly become controlling then it would make Feanors words about the Valar correct. And it's create more division and distrust between them. Manwe didn't even stop the Numenorean invaders and let Eru deal with them...

[@lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615]

Awesome job Mellon!! So it has taken me 4 days to watch this...getting older sucks. With age comes responsibilities that belong to others but they turn into mine...The fact that Isildur cursed the men of Dunharrow (spell check) to not die until they fulfill their oath, is damn scary. Seems whenever somebody calls upon Eru that oath is bound in fate..excellent analysis as always. ECTHELION!!!

[@jamaigar]

I love the very deep and emotional closing od this video over the image of a happy anime elf high-fiving Feanor after burning the ships

[@anonymussicarius8899]

Given the fact that death isn´t ending the marriage, I wouldn´t find it surprising if Feanor indeed would have, in his tragically ingenious manner, crafted an oath-curse so powerfull, that it´s binding effects ressembled those of marriage. Edit: Oh, you made the comparison with the wedding oath yourselfe. Comment for the Algorithm! XD

[@mrmeowmeow710]

Another masterpiece I sat back relaxed and enjoyed it.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Glad to hear it!

[@henrypaleveda7760]

likewise

[@hglundahl]

13:00 The statement on elves here is parallel to a Norse heroic legend about Helge Hundingsbane being reincarnated from or getting reincarnated as another Helge, and dito for the wife. Can't find the reference on wiki, there was a book on Norse mythology in a library in Sweden, when I was young.

[@GirlNextGondor]

I'm only passingly conversant with Norse legends but someday I want to dive in and get more familiar, and I'll keep an eye out for Helge.

[@tigersinlondon2152]

Absolutely astounding explanation!! Your content is really giving me another lens through which to adore Tolkien's work

[@AlerikHoeh]

What luck! I was just just thinking the other day about Devereaux's blog and had totally forgotten the title and lost the links.

[@larsdejong7396]

Honestly, the whole point of never calling out a specific deity, and literally living by your words, all sounds very familiar to the story of the Pharisees. If you truly believe in your words and Eru, why would you boast? Your words alone should be more than enough to bind you. I always got the impression that Feanor invoked the name of Eru, because of his pride and mistrust of the Valar. That he only trusted God himself from that point onwards. Btw I had forgotten about the oath of Eowyn and Merry. That makes the death of Theoden even more sad. 🙁

[@boldbearings]

Even strongly emotional statements might take on the power of a curse. FRODO/ONE RING: "If you [Smeagol] ever touch me again, you yourself shall be cast into the Cracks of Doom!"

[@awl61]

Its back like Maedhros, missing a bit, but ready to commit more unethical deeds to get some gems

[@GirlNextGondor]

Somehow this comment made me free-associate with the Terminator quote "I'll be back" which led to a nexus of other iconic Arnold quotes, resulting in a bewildering but vivid vision of Maedhros yelling "MAGLOR, GET TO THE CHOPPAH!" So... thanks for that, I think?....

[@SophiesDriver]

I love your outros - outstanding conclusion to outstanding exposition. Will me taking an oath, in addition to hitting the like button, help fate of this video in the great algorithm? This video really did make my Sunday morning. Thanks a bunch!

[@cliffwoodbury5319]

THIS ARTWORK IS AMAZING

[@GirlNextGondor]

I agree, and encourage everyone to shower love and praise upon the artists. There's just a phenomenal amount of quality Tolkien art being made these days.

[@bslprints9935]

Loved the hit like thing at the end lol

[@GirlNextGondor]

Glad you liked it 😆I try to at least be entertaining during my shameless self-promotion.

[@ellerose9164]

"Arrow!" said the bowman. "Black arrow! I have saved you to the last. You never failed me and always I have recovered you. I had you from my father and he from of old. If ever you came from the forges of the true king under the Mountain, go now and speed well!" I am just rereading the hobbit and this struck me and made me think of your videos. Isn't that an example of the magical power of speech as well? (as your video about speech is not re-uploaded I post it here) I always found it strange that Bard would go into epic speech mode when he has maybe only milliseconds to shoot the arrow but if it is a kind of "spell" it would make sense.

[@WhoIsCalli]

Another fab video essay. Thanks Lexi

[@michaelman957]

One point on hell, as you brought it up. The most terrifying description of hell - one with a lot of theological weight to it - is total absence of goodness. After all, it is eternal separation from God - i.e. from Being. Since evil is an absence or twisting of good, hell is the utter loss of joy, love, Hope, pleasure, happiness, beauty, song, majesty, even power (which ultimately is from God) because anything with a shred of Being is deprived. Hell is total, eternal aloness with oneself and all one's vices and failings in a void. If THAT is what the outer darkness in LOTR is, then there is no worse fate.

[@ecthelionofthefountain8267]

Oh yay! Glad you have reuploaded this one. I love the visual imagery ❤️

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you! I'm happy to get it back up!

[@vilena5308]

Subscribed! Kudos, this really gave me a new perspective.

[@riakm921]

Wonderful! I am quite pleased to have found your channel. I quite enjoy in depth musings about the magical elements of Tolkien’s Legendarium, especially when speculation is offered regarding potential guiding principles that may underpin the fantastic. It is such speculative principles that allow one to plausibly extend beyond the text, to envision the greater depths of tales untold!

[@joshuapatrick682]

I always loved the connection between the Music of the Ainur and music and spoken oaths in middle-Earth, thumbs up for getting it. on a meta textual level it makes sense that a philologist would place such importance on it in his written work.

[@cliffwoodbury5319]

5:00 - they should have made the dear larger because the columns and the deers horns go well together

[@GirlNextGondor]

You'll have to take that up with Pete I'm afraid 😆

[@rashgyl25]

wow!!!! so well thought out!!! love all your videos....a true tolkien lore master!

[@GirlNextGondor]

I'd say I'm definitely still just a student of the lore, but thank you very much!

[@rashgyl25]

@@GirlNextGondor I love all your lotr world analysis videos!!!!! Loved your andreth and aegnor analysis as well..... you beautifully explained his motives and elven perspective ......and in this video also you explained so well about curses and oaths...i never even considered how eowyn's and merry's oath breaking affected the story.....and how valar never really worked against the noldor but that their own decisions did....love your in depth explainations!

[@eluthiccgol4715]

Glad to see this one back!

[@BJETNT]

Hearing and having a female voice and set up the video was very different from what I am used to it was very nice for a change! Especially the background music, thank you very much girl!!

[@SquirrelASMR]

I love long videos on tolkien like this

[@je300blk]

Wow, you really knocked this one out of the park.😮 Literature, religion, philosophy and I would even say social commentary could use this as a very serious talking point. This might explain much as to why Tolkien continues to have so much depth. The more you think about it, the deeper it goes. Thank you for your work pointing it out. Excellent job.

[@XellossBoi]

You are touching on all of the best and most intersting subjects in Tolkien's works. Your eloquence and well-thought out analyses draw me in everyy time. Thank you for taking the time and effort to share with us.

[@j.s.ramirez4670]

Solid work, GNG. Well done! Subscribed and liked. And I'm going to stay away from oaths from now on, just in case.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thanks! 🥰 And yes, I think taking care with oaths is a solid plan.

[@godlessrod6910]

the level of research, detail and interpretation is truly impressive! Loving the channel!

[@Amknownas_743great_explainer]

The last 20 or so seconds of script is definitely what made me hit the like button and subscribe, so now you're implied oath is to continue to make great content, good deal, goooooood deal lol

[@shanenolan8252]

The point about elven marriage. I agree of course but it does seem to end debate about eol and turgons sister ( i know her name just having a brain fart ) my point is that marriage was genuine marriage of mutual consent or it would have been invalid. He could trick her to stay in his Forrest but not to marry him without her consent. And both having sworn freely to eru , the marriage was a fact and both parties were bound to honour it . You could argue they both broke their vows and both died as a result. .

[@keyboarddancers7751]

Aredhel

[@Enerdhil]

I am sure about the "marriage" of Aredhel and Ëol. She was kind of imprisoned or at least trapped by him. We don't know how long he begged her for sex before she finally consented. It could have been years. Once Maeglin was born, she could devote herself to Ëol and her son. I really think that the only reason she left Ëol was that her "fëa" had never committed to his. They were never soul mates. Therefore, I don't think what happened to them was because of their breaking their marriage oath to each other. In fact, I am sure Aredhel made no such oath to Ëol.

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

Good stuff as ever GNG. I think for Tolkien, reality shaped words and words shaped reality. So oaths and curses should have true power. And of course his views on our intent are important to him. A good reflection of the author. Thanks and keep up the good work.

[@KnudAutlermann]

Ok wow...... just wow...... im...... im utterly mind blown. That was so in depth, so detailed, so researched. All around applause for you. 13/10 score. Not only did you break down Oaths so completely and utterly down to the very letter... you also stunned me how excellent Tolkien wrote Middle Earth. I already knew he was fantastic and among the best. You raised me to a whole new level of understanding. I cant tell if Tolkien is the Einstein of Fictional work or did this on accident. Excellent work. This is the first video I watch from you and will gladly watch more. Just wow.... I havent been this mind blown in ages.

[@caballeroGarvey]

Amazing work

[@wesleyking6713]

Fascinating video. The power of oaths and curses has always been one of my favorite parts of Tolkein's lore, but I hadn't stumbled across too much about it before now. This was excellent. Keep up the good work.

[@oldmangranny5oldmangranny56]

I think Sauron used oaths to invest his power into his ring lore technology. The Fate of the ring lord of the one is tied to the fate of Mount Doom. And the fate of the other rings are tied to the fate of the ring lord of the one. Hence why the lords of the lesser rings are ultimately subservient to the lord of The One. And why the volcano erupted when the one was destroyed.

[@naishahenderson9976]

Hey GirlNextDoor 👋 just wanted to say that I really enjoy your videos, and appreciate that you've expanded on or highlighted content that hasn't been done to death on other lotr channels

[@Austin-cn8vh]

Watching this a year later and the first thing that comes to mind is. Middle Earth is a rules lawyer's worst nightmare. No amount of technicalities, cheeky wording, or clever intent can save them from their own words. Kind of makes one think that perhaps this level of power can be taken as a lesson to think well before speaking, and in turn speak true, lest your own words come back to haunt you.

[@IMSwimmer19]

Great video! I'm especially appreciative that the Valar were able to keep their continent free of "Morgoth's taint"

[@di3486]

Beautiful and fascinating! I have to mention the absolute stunning beauty of the art you portrait in your videos. So much talent out there that deserves to be recognized!🥳

[@robertherring9277]

Awesome stuff! Happy to see your channel grow!

[@shanenolan8252]

Thanks lexi . Cant remember my original comment this time . Lets assume it was clever or insightful. Kidding. But i bet it had some words of thanks for your hard work. Oh but i do remember watching this last December and having exchanging a few messages with you as i listened.

[@EriktheRed2023]

I did not realize until I heard it from you how Frodo's decision at the Council of Elrond was an oath for this purpose. It seemed to me that Elrond was just too kind to command Frodo, and wise enough to see he would come to a good decision on his own. But of course, the oathiness (if that's a thing) ties much better into the metaphysics of Middle-earth as you've laid them out. Wonderful stuff! The Stone of Erech is such a fascinating subject. The myth that it had fallen from the sky dovetails nicely with your idea that it came from the top of the Meneltarma, the 'Pillar of Heaven'.

[@edwardgoodwin9801]

Very well done. Amazing brake down. You help make a hard subject very easy to understand. Thank you.

[@alexbecket7140]

Currently binging your channel! Great social, psychological and narrative analysis! Really enjoying the content. Cheers

[@estherandreasen366]

Ok. Wow, so I had forgotten a lot of this stuff since you took the video down. It's really incredible and thought provoking. I'm going to have to think about it for a while. If someone does not need to state any names or consequences as a part of the oath, what purpose exactly does the stated name or consequence play? For example in the iconic Oath of Feanor they swear by Eru. What practical role would that play in the consequence of the oath? Does it potentially provide a way out if Eru chose to release them from the oath? I guess what I am trying to understand is that if listing a name or consequence does not change the reality warping power of the oath, why use a name or consequence in the oath at all?

[@da_BemBem]

Super wonderful video, glad you reuploaded! Definitely subscribing, glad I found you!

[@josefdawson5284]

just found your channel and it's great! Good luck with the art compliance project, looking forward to hearing the video on magic words in due course haha :)

[@IanHeins]

Nice work thanks

[@MrMiloboi]

This was a very well written and v informative 🙌🏾

[@davidkaplan2745]

Well conceived and well spoken.

[@ScaricoOleoso]

Not related to the subject matter, but I'm playing back the audio at half speed, and you sound stoned. 🤣🤓😊 Now back to binging on your videos while I work. 🙃

[@GirlNextGondor]

I frequently listen back to my audio at double-speed, so when I switch back to *normal* speed, I sound stoned to myself. 😅 Hope you enjoy the binge!

[@istari0]

Regarding the oath of Fëanor, would it have made any difference to any of them if at some point the sons (or some of them) of Fëanor (or some of them) stopped upholding the oath, say after the death of Fëanor? I thought that one of the purposes for elven souls to stay in the Halls of Mandos was as a time to come to see the errors of their ways regarding their misdeeds in life. If death was not the end of their oath then would they ever have been reincarnated? I can certainly see Fëanor, as the evilest elf ever, never getting out. Regarding the like button, I think I shall not declare my intentions towards it, lest in doing so I bring some horrible fate down on my index finger.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Your caution regarding the like button is probably wise. One only has so many index fingers, after all. I have... thoughts about the Feanorian oath, of sufficient volume that I will not attempt to summarize them here, but I think it's interesting that the Sons of Feanor collectively DON'T pursue their oath, or pursue it only indirectly, for several centuries before it all hits the fan after the Nirnaeth. Given the Oath, I don't think it would be safe to let Feanor out until the Dagorath - I think that he himself would come to recognize that relatively quickly. ('Relatively' quickly meaning, within a few Ages or so.)

[@istari0]

@@GirlNextGondor Yeah, the sons didn't seem to eager to try and seize a Silmaril until they had the advantage except for their last attempt when they were outnumbered but actually ended up leaving with two Silmarils. Of course, that ended badly for them as well.

[@MrTNT49]

Another hugely insightful video

[@kristinal-ghoul2680]

Excellent video! Have you watched In Deep Geek's video called 'Did Frodo Curse Gollum to fall into the the Cracks of Doom?' Also a good video on how/why a specific curse worked.

[@jeffgoode9865]

My brain read the title as "Oats and Curry", and I was still interested to see what Tolkien had to say about it. 🤦

[@musicalcacti]

great video!

[@blacksage2375]

Not even death being sufficient cause for an elven divorce is the most Catholic thing Tolkien ever thought up.

[@Jzscrstsprstr]

Thank you! :)

[@GirlNextGondor]

Enjoy!

[@michaelsmyth3935]

Swearing an Oath of Revenge....yeah unforseen consequences, something, something, losing more than gained, etc., etc. Be careful what you wish for, it might just end being a sandwich rather than a song of joy. A sandwich with remorse and sorrow spread upon the bread, lettuce wilted, tomato soft, and the meat, has that shiny look to it. You take a bite everyday, you won!

[@GirlNextGondor]

I'm not sure I'm fully tracking the metaphor, but I feel like somewhere Maglor is choking down a mouthful of a slimy, remorseful sandwich and thinking 'well this figures' 😆

[@elizabethcarroll8012]

Love the video, it's one I've rewatched several times, along with your Turin and 'can you break the oath of Feanor?' videos. Out of curiosity, how many videos do you have left that need re-uploading? Asking because I jumped into this hobbit hole late in the game, so I have no idea what your channel looked like before this?

[@stevepilley]

An oath that sticks with me is Samwise's "snakes and adders "iirc this he says when he and Frodo see Gollum climbing down from the Emyn Muil, it is striking that Sam uses an out of context real world phrase as an oath.

[@MrARock001]

Imagine a heart-breaking scene on the slopes of Mount Doom where Smeagol reveals to Frodo he lied when he swore on the Ring. As they fight, Frodo begs Smeagol not to betray his word, trying desperately to save wretched creature from the consequences the Ring will exact for the betrayal. All because Frodo *needs* to believe that Smeagol is redeemable, to assure himself that he too won't be permanently teinted by the Ring's corrupting power.

[@ProjectRedfoot]

This was great. Well done

[@TheNeokiller666]

great video great channel amazing work

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you much! 😊

[@gabrielblanchard3921]

Deeply desirous of a list of crimes for which the penalty, or to prevent which the measure, is the Valar summoning bees

[@GirlNextGondor]

Fully half of the items on that list begin, "Melkor IN PARTICULAR is not allowed within 50 yards of..." 😂

[@LowellLucasJr.]

Call me old-fashioned but I always follow the motto that you are bound by your own words and I am glad to see that Tolkien Works still carry on those very same sentiments. I know the movies would later popularize these Oaths, but I owe mine to my family and being exposed to rankin-bass interpretations of his classic works that help enforce that you are bound by your own words no matter what you do.

[@golwenlothlindel]

“what about Túrin, wasn’t he cursed by Morgoth?” No, that is an unfortunately common misunderstanding. Húrin was the one cursed. He was cursed to watch and listen: which would have sucked no matter what Túrin had done, since Morgoth had so much power over so much of Beleriand. Túrin was merely a loveable dumbass, who was therefore easily manipulated by Glaurung. Even still, the incest was only achieved through wiping Nienor’s mind: otherwise she would have probably figured out this guy who looks like her mom was her lost big brother.

[@GirlNextGondor]

You do wonder sometimes about the First Dates of these star-crossed couples. Hard to imagine Turin and Nienor making small talk about their childhood, likes and dislikes, etc. when one is concealing his identity and the other has magical amnesia. "What's your favorite song?" "I only know the one song I learned last week. What did you want to be when you grew up?" "Whatever would let me kill the maximum number of orcs." In the Silm, at least, it mentions that Morgoth lays a curse on Hurin AND Morwen and his offspring.... but the question of Turin's 'curse'/fate/loveable dumbassery and to what degree each shapes his life is an extremely complicated one.

[@joshuakahelin6524]

This isn't true. Morgoth cursed Húrin AND all his kin, which includes Túrin. So much for the Internet pedantic guy.

[@SquirrelASMR]

Yay one of my fav topics!

[@jamth118]

Great video keep up the good work :)

[@Blaqueword]

Question just for you @Girlnextgondor when Sarumon is referred to as "Cunning and Dwimmercrafty" is dwimmercrafty in this translation referring to the Goetia definition that Tolkien explains (a difference between the magic of intent not being the same as how the magic is expressed)? As in his displays of magic are quite great and artful in display?

[@Enkaptaton]

I wish I could subscribe every time you make me laugh by asking for it.

[@PleaseNThankYou]

This is why words are important. Words have specific meanings. Words matter. Those specific meanings cannot be wholly forgotten nor replaced with arbitrary meanings. We seem to be having a big problem with words and their meanings these days. And it seems to rely heavily on intent.

[@Nihm420]

I really wish Tolkien wrote out the argument Maedros used that convinced Maglor out from what i see as his superior logic of “less evil in the breaking”.

[@joshuapatrick682]

12:32 wait doesn't the case of Glorfindel kind of contradict that stance? Also Finrod Felugund who was stated to have been released from Mandos in the Silmarillion?

[@zackkertzman7709]

I feel like wishes might belong here too... Sam in particular ends up getting a lot of the earnest desires/needs he speaks granted by seeming random chance.

[@GirlNextGondor]

I think that may also have something to do with Sam wanting the right kind of things!

[@turinturambar1159]

This reminds me of Felagund's life debt to Barahir, which sealed his fate and changed the course of Beren's quest. It always seemed like Felagund was super heroic for fulfilling his oath in the way he did, and I still think that's true. This video explains why, despite knowing it would bring ruin to him and possibly his people, Felagund went with Beren.

[@MrLorbu]

So, will we get a video explaining the story behind the picture at teh end of this video? If you've been there at the burning of the ships, you have to have some inside scoops you are not telling us. Why is that? An oath you swore? Are you afraid of the Valar? :) Just speak truth, friend, and enter... or exit your secret info... I don't know this sounded great in my head^^

[@nillynush4899]

I love that oaths have physical power even though they aren't really magic spells in LOTR. Your word is your bond, literally.

[@freddaniel5099]

Awesome video!